New to forum and am in the market for my first big screen. I have narrowed my search to a 50 plasma but need assistance in weeding through the ? of 1080P vs 720. I will be using my PS3 for movies and some gaming and would like to know if a 1080P is going to make a considerable difference. If so, any recommendations on a particular set.

Also, are some brands better than others for viewing SD (wife still will be viewing shows not broadcast in HD). My viewing will be mostly sporting events and movies.

Thanks in advance for any help and sorry if this question may have been raised in another thread...I have been viewing threads since recently joining forum but have not come across it.


Dilfer

New to forum and am in the market for my first big screen. I have narrowed my search to a 50 plasma but need assistance in weeding through the ? of 1080P vs 720. I will be using my PS3 for movies and some gaming and would like to know if a 1080P is going to make a considerable difference. If so, any recommendations on a particular set.

Also, are some brands better than others for viewing SD (wife still will be viewing shows not broadcast in HD). My viewing will be mostly sporting events and movies.What is your viewing distance?

The Pioneer plasmas tend to be the best for viewing SD. Check out the 5070 if viewing from 9-11', and the 6070 if viewing from more than 11'.

If you will spend a lot of time watching high-definition channels, and expect to buy a HD-DVD or Blu-ray player, then you may want to opt for the Panasonic 58" PZ700 1080p plasma with viewing distance of 7-10'. The experience with Blu-ray is far superior on a 60"1080p model at 8' compared to a 50" 768p at 10'. Beyond 12', you should probably just save your money and opt for a 58-60" 768p model.

High-definition was designed for larger screens; the high-definition picture looks better and better as you go larger (to a point). Local channels like ABC, CBS, FOX, and NBC, as well as cable channels like Comcast Sportsnet and Fox Sportsnet, ESPN, ESPN2, TNT, FOOD, MTV, Discovery, Wealth, NGC, HBO, Cinemax, Starz, Showtime, and TMC are already offered in HDTV, with others like Cartoon Network, CNN, FX, History, SciFi, and the Weather Channel expected to follow later this year. High-definition channel lineups for different providers can be found here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4022698&&#post4022698).

http://comcal.wboc.com/img/resvsdist.jpg
Table assumes average corrected vision, i.e. 20/20 or one arc minute.

Find your viewing distance on the left.

With 1080p displays, the best picture with Blu-ray and HD-DVD is obtained at the red line. For the best experience with a mix of SD and HD content, I recommend a screen size and viewing distance that falls somewhere between the green and red lines, i.e the red shaded area. However, if your viewing is primarily Blu-ray, HD-DVD, and other high-definition, you want to be as close to the red line as possible.

Without a sufficiently large screen, or a sufficiently short viewing distance, you get no benefit from 1080p. At the blue line, there is no benefit to high-definition over a quality SD source. At the green line, there is no benefit to a 1080p panel over a 720p panel. As soon as you pass the green line, you start to see some benefit from 1080p, but the full benefit of Blu-ray and HD-DVD is not realized until you hit the red line. Note for broadcast and cable channels, the benefit you can see with 1080p will depend on the quality of the video processing in the display (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10070516&&#post10070516).If value is a primary concern, check the pricing on the Panasonic 58" 768p and 1080p plasmas at the forum sponsors (Cleveland Plasma, Plasma Concepts, Invision, etc).

If performance with SD channels is a high priprity, then check the pricing on the Pioneer 5070 and 6070 (both 768p plasmas) from the same vendors.

My viewing distance ia approx. 8-10 feet. My concern is that anything larget than 50 will overpower my living room. Price is not really a major facor nor is the SD (just as long as it's not horrible). Do I need 1080P to view blue-ray movies for my PS3 or will 720 work?

Thanks for your input bfdtv!

New to forum and am in the market for my first big screen. I have narrowed my search to a 50 plasma but need assistance in weeding through the ? of 1080P vs 720. I will be using my PS3 for movies and some gaming and would like to know if a 1080P is going to make a considerable difference. If so, any recommendations on a particular set.

Also, are some brands better than others for viewing SD (wife still will be viewing shows not broadcast in HD). My viewing will be mostly sporting events and movies.

Thanks in advance for any help and sorry if this question may have been raised in another thread...I have been viewing threads since recently joining forum but have not come across it.


Dilfer

I agree , distance is a factor(normally a small one), but contrast, color saturation and color decoding are more important. I sit 7-8 feet away from a 720p set. 1080p even at this rather close distance isnt going to make a real difference. Again, contrast, color and black level are more important in the decision. You would have to be within 6 feet of a 50" before I would even consider 1080p.

Current 720p plasma sets are generally better than the new 1st. gen 1080p plasma sets coming out in some of these key areas along with black level and black level detail.

Personally, I know the PS3 can display a 1080p picture. BUt it is a native 720p machine. It performs best at this resolution.

Also I know there are alot of recommendations on Panasonics floating around here. But they aren't that great in performance compared to the new wave of PDP's coming out from other mfg's(notably Samsung). In all honesty its been aver 2 years including the current crop and Panasonic still hasnt made any significant improvements in PQ. Cosmetics is the only thing they have really toyed with. 2 years ago Panasonics were considered great performers for the money. Now they fall behind in that bang for the buck category.

Pioneers on the otherhand are good sets, but stick with the Elite if your going to consider them. They have the needed picture controls to really fine tune the picture. The 70 series on the other hand from Pioneer doesn't have very good picture controls. Its basically a disabled Elite set.

Samsung also has made dramatic improvements in PQ, and currently may have the best performing 42" and 50" 720p plasma sets on the market. A recent review over in Europe stated that the HP-T4254 equivalent is one of the best plasma displays they have ever tested. Color accuracy, black level and black level detail performance is absolutely top notch. I've also noticed that lack of motion blur or picture jutter is another huge positive for this set over the Pioneer and Panasonic models. Check out the first review: http://www.hdtvorg.co.uk/reviews/plasma/samsung_ps42q97hdx.htm

There is another site that is also finishing up a review on the 5054. And its also going to be a very positive one.

My viewing distance ia approx. 8-10 feet. My concern is that anything larget than 50 will overpower my living room. Price is not really a major facor nor is the SD (just as long as it's not horrible). Do I need 1080P to view blue-ray movies for my PS3 or will 720 work?I've really never understood the comment, "overwhelm the room," because a slim plasma mounted on the wall is really no different than a larger framed print or painting. In fact, some plasmas are available with optional wall frames to match your decor. Many also support slideshow display of high-resolution images from SD card, like that used in your digital camera, so you can actually substitute a plasma for a framed painting or print.

At 8', you would get some small benefit from 1080p in a 50" screen. The benefit of 1080p on a 50" screen at 10' would be negligible, assuming average vision. At 8-10' from a 50" screen, contrast, color saturation, and color decoding are all more important than resolution, as indicated by the previous poster.

If your wife still does a lot of viewing on channels not available or coming soon in HD, then I would probably stick to a 50" rather than a 58". However, again, if a high percentage of your viewing material shown on ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, or HBO, and you like to watch a lot of movies, then I would seriously consider a 58-60" model with a professional wall installation. It makes for a superior experience, similar to what you get sitting towards the rear of a nice theater.

Do I need 1080P to view blue-ray movies for my PS3 or will 720 work?The PS3 will not output movies at 720p, but it will output them at 1080i and 1080p. That said, every modern 720p display accepts 1080i and many also accept 1080p. On a 50" 768p display, the 1080i/1080p signal is downconverted to 1366x768 for display. Assuming the display has quality video processing with inverse telecine (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10070516&&#post10070516), there is no benefit to 1080p over 1080i input for movies.

If you do a lot of gaming on the PS3, then support for 1080p60 input may be more important, since the PS3 will not rescale games to 720p, and output at 1080i60 (which it will do) can't produce the same framerate. In that case, I would look at the Panasonic TH-50PZ750 (http://www.hdguru.com/), Panasonic, TH-50PZ700, or one of the new Pioneers announced later this month. Last year's Pioneer 768p plasmas do not accept 1080p60 input from the PS3, but the new 2007 models are expected to add that capability. Again, support for 1080p60 input is really only important if you intend to do a lot of gaming with the PS3.

Updated 5/04: The first sentence in the last paragraph is misleading. It is true that the PS3 will not scale 1080p to 720p. However, every shipping "native 1080p" PS3 title also includes a separate, hard-coded 720p mode. Hence, even on 1080p titles, you can choose the 720p output mode in the game -- you aren't stuck with 480p.

Zippy, I have not been to CC or BB to view any of the new sets yet, but have read some good things about the new Samsung 5054. I will check out the thread on the pros and cons.

bfdtv, thanks for the information and clarifying the PS3 issue. Your view on the benefits of the 58 screen have me thinking. When I go out this weekend to look at PDP's I will definitely be sure to view some 58 panels for comparison.

I've really never understood the comment, "overwhelm the room," because a slim plasma mounted on the wall is really no different than a larger framed print or painting. In fact, some plasmas are available with optional wall frames to match your decor. Many also support slideshow display of high-resolution images from SD card, like that used in your digital camera, so you can actually substitute a plasma for a framed painting or print.

At 8', you would get some small benefit from 1080p in a 50" screen. The benefit of 1080p on a 50" screen at 10' would be negligible, assuming average vision. At 8-10' from a 50" screen, contrast, color saturation, and color decoding are all more important than resolution, as indicated by the previous poster.

If your wife still does a lot of viewing on channels not available or coming soon in HD, then I would probably stick to a 50" rather than a 58". However, again, if a high percentage of your viewing material shown on ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, or HBO, and you like to watch a lot of movies, then I would seriously consider a 58-60" model with a professional wall installation. It makes for a superior experience, similar to what you get sitting towards the rear of a nice theater.

The PS3 will not output movies at 720p, but it will output them at 1080i and 1080p. That said, every modern 720p display accepts 1080i and many also accept 1080p. On a 50" 768p display, the 1080i/1080p signal is downconverted to 1366x768 for display. Assuming the display has quality video processing with inverse telecine (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10070516&&#post10070516), there is no benefit to 1080p over 1080i input for movies.

If you do a lot of gaming on the PS3, then support for 1080p60 input may be more important, since the PS3 will not rescale games to 720p, and output at 1080i60 (which it will do) can't produce the same framerate. In that case, I would look at the Panasonic TH-50PZ750 (http://www.hdguru.com/), Panasonic, TH-50PZ700, or one of the new Pioneers announced later this month. Last year's Pioneer 768p plasmas do not accept 1080p60 input from the PS3, but the new 2007 models are expected to add that capability. Again, support for 1080p60 input is really only important if you intend to do a lot of gaming with the PS3.

You really need to start getting facts straight.

I have my PS3 set to 720p output. Thats what I watch my games AND movies at. :rolleyes: I'm not even going to comment on the rest of the jargon(ie: recommending anything with the Panasonic nametag on it)......... :rolleyes:

And before you even attempt to try and come back with a "Samsung" comment towards me, do realize I ONLY recommend the latest Samsung plasma products. Their previous plasma screens were poor in comparison.

Dilf: As I stated, the PS3 is a NATIVE 720p machine. It runs its game optimally at 720p and movies look spectacular at that resolution as well. Most people can't even tell the difference between 1080p and 720p unless their face is smack dab up against the screen.

So do yourself a big favor. Get a MATURE 720p plasma display. 1080p plasmas are far from polished.

You really need to start getting facts straight.

I have my PS3 set to 720p output. Thats what I watch my games AND movies at. :rolleyes: I'm not even going to comment on the rest of the jargon(ie: recommending anything with the Panasonic nametag on it)......... :rolleyes: As I stated, the PS3 is a NATIVE 720p machine. It runs its game optimally at 720p and movies look spectacular at that resolution as well. Most people can't even tell the difference between 1080p and 720p unless their face is smack dab up against the screen.It's not my facts you should be worried about. I can understand your confusion, since the PS3 does not specify the current output resolution. Many people are still under the impression that the PS3 will output Blu-ray disks at 720p and 1080p games at 720p. But that is not the case.

The current PS3 software does not do 1080p->720p scaling. If you check only 480p and 720p resolutions on your PS3, it will output 1080p Blu-ray disks as 480p to your display. Just press the "Display" button on your Samsung plasma to see for yourself.

The same is true with games. Check only 480p and 720p resolutions on your PS3, then play a 1080p game like Ridge Racer 7, Virtua Tennis, NBA 2K7, or NBA 07. Then press the display button on your Samsung to check the resolution. You'll see that the PS3 is providing 480p output -- not 720p output -- for those games.

Updated 5/04: The information in the last paragraph is not correct. It is true that the PS3 will not scale 1080p to 720p. However, every shipping "native 1080p" PS3 title also includes a separate, hard-coded 720p mode. Hence, even on 1080p titles, you can choose the 720p output mode in the game -- you aren't stuck with 480p.

I don't really understand why you call the PS3 a 720p system. Like the Xbox360, the PS3 delivers much greater performance when 720p is used. When developers use 720p, they've got more "performance headroom" to apply new effects. However, there are are stiill ten or so 1080p PS3 games. These 1080p games tend to be sharper, but they often lack the pretty effects seen in 720p titles.

And before you even attempt to try and come back with a "Samsung" comment towards me, do realize I ONLY recommend the latest Samsung plasma products. Their previous plasma screens were poor in comparison.Why would I do that? I have not seen a credible review of the new Samsung plasmas, but nor do I have experience with them. Hence, I am in no position to comment for or against them.

It's not my facts you should be worried about. I can understand your confusion, since the PS3 does not specify the current output resolution. Many people are still under the impression that the PS3 will output Blu-ray disks at 720p and 1080p games at 720p. But that is not the case.

The current PS3 software does not do 1080p->720p scaling. If you check only 480p and 720p resolutions on your PS3, it will output 1080p Blu-ray disks as 480p to your display. Just press the "Display" button on your Samsung plasma to see for yourself.

The same is true with games. Check only 480p and 720p resolutions on your PS3, then play a 1080p game like Ridge Racer 7, Virtua Tennis, NBA 2K7, or NBA 07. Then press the display button on your Samsung to check the resolution. You'll see that the PS3 is providing 480p output -- not 720p output -- for those games.

I don't really understand why you call the PS3 a 720p system. Like the Xbox360, the PS3 delivers much greater performance when 720p is used. When developers use 720p, they've got more "performance headroom" to apply new effects. However, there are are stiill ten or so 1080p PS3 games. These 1080p games tend to be sharper, but they often lack the pretty effects seen in 720p titles.

Why would I do that? I have not seen a credible review of the new Samsung plasmas, but nor do I have experience with them. Hence, I am in no position to comment for or against them.

Are you on crack? I have 480p and 720p checked only. Putting in a high def. Blu-ray disc WILL output a 720p signal. Both for GAMES and MOVIES.

What the PS3 WILL not do is UPCONVERT a standard DVD from 480p to 720p. So if you put in a standard regular old DVD movie your stuck at 480p whether you have 720p check or not. Your dealing with someone who has very intimate knowledge on this consoles current capabilities on its current 1.6 firmware.

As for 1080p ability, yes, the PS3 just like the Xbox 360 can RENDER and output a 1080p game. But the games will be low on detail, and run at half the frames around 30fps instead of 60fps on average in 720p.

BTW the PS3 doesn't have 10 games that are ORIGINALLY RENDERED and designed in 1080p. Not even 5. Think I'm wrong? You give me that game list and we'll see. ;)

The 360 has one 1080p game. Virtual Tennis. Its a pretty darn simple game too.

Are you on crack? I have 480p and 720p checked only. Putting in a high def. Blu-ray disc WILL output a 720p signal. Both for GAMES and MOVIES.

What the PS3 WILL not do is UPCONVERT a standard DVD from 480p to 720p. So if you put in a standard regular old DVD movie your stuck at 480p whether you have 720p check or not. Your dealing with someone who has very intimate knowledge on this consoles current capabilities on its current 1.6 firmware.Wish I had your PS3, you've got a special box there. ;)

BTW the PS3 doesn't have 10 games that are ORIGINALLY RENDERED and designed in 1080p. Not even 5. Think I'm wrong? You give me that game list and we'll see. I'm no authority on PS3 games and I don't pretend to be. However, a quick search of AVS yields the following:

Current releases
Marvel: Ultimate Alliance
Full Auto 2: Battlelines
NBA 2k7
NBA '07
College Hoops 2K7
Gundam wing
Ridge Racer 7
Tekken DR
Virtua Tennis 3

Downloadable
Blast Factor
Cash Guns Chaos DLX
Go! Soduku
Grand Tourismo: HD
flOw
Q*Bert
Super Rub a Dub
Mortal Kombat II
Ninja Gaiden Sigma (Demo)


Updated 5/04: It is true that the PS3 will not scale 1080p to 720p. However, every shipping "native 1080p" PS3 title also includes a separate, hard-coded 720p mode. Hence, even on 1080p titles, you can choose the 720p output mode in the game -- you aren't stuck with 480p.

Wish I had your PS3, you've got a special box there. ;)

I'm no authority on PS3 games and I don't pretend to be. However, a quick search of AVS yields the following:

Current releases
Marvel: Ultimate Alliance
Full Auto 2: Battlelines
NBA 2k7
NBA '07
College Hoops 2K7
Gundam wing
Ridge Racer 7
Tekken DR
Virtua Tennis 3

Downloadable
Blast Factor
Cash Guns Chaos DLX
Go! Soduku
Grand Tourismo: HD
flOw
Q*Bert
Super Rub a Dub
Mortal Kombat II
Ninja Gaiden Sigma (Demo)

Right off the bat. I know this list is bogus. Ridge Racer 7 alone had a big technical discussion on it on an official PS3 site. Its a 720p PROGRAMMED/RENDERED game, along with the rest of them with the exception of Virtual Tennis which was programmed/rendered in 1080p.

There is a big difference between a game that upscales via software or hardware to 1080p and a game that was developed and rendered to run in 1080p.

BTW, call up PS3 support directly. Its an 800 number. Ask them if a Blu Ray movie will output a PURE 720p picture to a 720p native set when 720p box is checked. ;)

Everybody has the "special" playstation. Not just me. ;)

On a very serious note. You need to learn to curb your posts unless you can put up credible info. Your batting a low average currently.

Just to stop some of the argument. I think the confusion is about the downconverting to 480p. You are correct that it dows downconvert to 480p, but only if your TV only accepts a 1080i input. If you play a blue-ray, and your native resolution is 1080i, it will convert it to 480p. If your native resolution is 1080p...it will display in 1080p. If your native resolution is 720p...then it will display in 720p. So you are both kind of right. If you have a Panasonic px60u like I do, my TV acepts a 1080p input, and doncerts it to it's native resolution....which is not 1080p but 768p.

Just to stop some of the argument. I think the confusion is about the downconverting to 480p. You are correct that it dows downconvert to 480p, but only if your TV only accepts a 1080i input. If you play a blue-ray, and your native resolution is 1080i, it will convert it to 480p. If your native resolution is 1080p...it will display in 1080p. If your native resolution is 720p...then it will display in 720p. So you are both kind of right. If you have a Panasonic px60u like I do, my TV acepts a 1080p input, and doncerts it to it's native resolution....which is not 1080p but 768p.

The difference is that I understand what I'm talking about. I highly question his angle. I am also completely aware that the PS3 can only output a 480p SD signal when attached to a 1080i TV. But that wasn't even part of the original argument.

The original user is asking about 720p and 1080p flat panel displays. There really are no "1080i" flat panel displays other than maybe a Hitachi model.

I stated that the PS3 is by design a 720p machine. And that a 720p machine is optimally coupled with a 720p native display.

Our good friend "Mr. PS3 Expert" here states that a PS3 cannot output at 720p and that it downconverts to 480p. This is 100% incorrect. Not to mention his other posts on the rendered software available for it..............catch my point? :)

The difference is that I understand what I'm talking about. I highly question his angle. I am also completely aware that the PS3 can only output a 480p SD signal when attached to a 1080i TV. But that wasn't even part of the original argument.

The original user is asking about 720p and 1080p flat panel displays. There really are no "1080i" flat panel displays other than maybe a Hitachi model.

I stated that the PS3 is by design a 720p machine. And that a 720p machine is optimally coupled with a 720p native display.

Our good friend "Mr. PS3 Expert" here states that a PS3 cannot output at 720p and that it downconverts to 480p. This is 100% incorrect. Not to mention his other posts on the rendered software available for it..............catch my point? :)

I agree. You are correct. The PS3 will NOT down convert to 480p when output at a 720p resolution. The PS3 will only down convert when dealing with a native 1080i TV, which you are correct is rare now days except for Hitachi. Some of the older models used to have native 1080i. So to end the argument, native 720p TV's will play fine with the PS3. As for which TV to get a 1080p TV or a 720p....that depends on preference. I had a Sony rear projection TV SXRD and my Panasonic px60u 768p side by side. I fed them the same signal. I could not see any difference from more than 3 feet away. Yes I can see a difference. Yes there was and is a difference, but on the 50" screen comparison, I liked the color and over all picture of the plasma over the rear projection with the 1080p display. Now I was comparing apple's and oranges. I would love to have been able to compare a panasonic 768p plasma to a pany 1080p. I am sure there would be a difference, but once again I don't know if it would be noticible from the distance I sit.

I agree. You are correct. The PS3 will NOT down convert to 480p when output at a 720p resolution. The PS3 will only down convert when dealing with a native 1080i TV, which you are correct is rare now days except for Hitachi. Some of the older models used to have native 1080i. So to end the argument, native 720p TV's will play fine with the PS3. As for which TV to get a 1080p TV or a 720p....that depends on preference. I had a Sony rear projection TV SXRD and my Panasonic px60u 768p side by side. I fed them the same signal. I could not see any difference from more than 3 feet away. Yes I can see a difference. Yes there was and is a difference, but on the 50" screen comparison, I liked the color and over all picture of the plasma over the rear projection with the 1080p display. Now I was comparing apple's and oranges. I would love to have been able to compare a panasonic 768p plasma to a pany 1080p. I am sure there would be a difference, but once again I don't know if it would be noticible from the distance I sit.

Cheers, ;) In my book there never really was an argument. I wasnt attacking bfdtv, but I was his statements. It just drives me nutz when I see soooo many posts with sooooo much poor info being spread around.

I won't even comment on the RPTV/plasma resolution/picture differences, but I will say that you need to be at about 6 feet from a 50" screen just to be able to "notice" a resolution difference, and it won't be huge, it will be a very small difference. Thats why things like picture contrast, color saturation and decoding are in practice and theory much more important to a detailed quality picture. Resolution also plays a factor, but its a rather small one in many ways. Especially considering 720p and 1080p are actually very close HD formats as it is.

The Ps3 graphic chip (CELL) Native resolution is 1080p. Sony was built to last 10 years.

PS3 is not no 360.

The Ps3 graphic chip (CELL) Native resolution is 1080p. Sony was built to last 10 years.

PS3 is not no 360.

LOL, 10 years, thats a laugher, you must believe all the Sony hype....................if they wanted a system that would last even say 5 years strong then they should have doubled the available RAM onboard. 400 megs for games doesn't go too far, especially at 1080p resolution........BTW the "CELL" isn't the graphics chip. Its the main CPU. :rolleyes:

The Ps3 graphic chip (CELL) Native resolution is 1080p. Sony was built to last 10 years.

PS3 is not no 360.

Do you honestly believe that native res has anything to do with a CPU or are you just being funny? This statement is so wrong it almost seems sarcastic and I'm just missing it.

In any event, 720p is the sweet spot for PS3 gaming as most games will be 720p. I almost got Marvel Ultimate Alliance for PS3 instead of X360 until I read the reviews and they let everyone know that in 1080p mode on PS3 the game's framerate stuttered.

Sony must like PS3 on 720p anyway since all the demo stations have a 720p Bravia attached.

I have a CRT that accepts 480p/720p/1080i but ofcourse it's native is 1080i I would imagine. Most of the games I have for PS3 are 720p native, as most out right now are anyways. But the PS3 will not downconvert to 480p if you have a 1080i native, only if you have a 1080i native tv that does not accept 720p. Like the Hitachi big screen, and the RCA that they have on sale every week at stores. Those tvs are 480i/p, 1080i.

At 8', you would get some small benefit from 1080p in a 50" screen. The benefit of 1080p on a 50" screen at 10' would be negligible, assuming average vision. At 8-10' from a 50" screen, contrast, color saturation, and color decoding are all more important than resolution, as indicated by the previous poster.



Question... quite a few people (myself included) have 20/15 vision. A small percentage have 20/10. I presume that we'd benefit more than the person with "average" vision when viewing "small-ish" denser displays from longer distances? Like your 10' from a 50" 1080p screen example?

I ask because I generally sit 10' or so from my display, which is currently a 768p 50". I'm thinking with my vision, I'd be able to notice a difference on a 1080p 50". How much does the chart change for 20/15 and 20/10?

Question... quite a few people (myself included) have 20/15 vision. A small percentage have 20/10. I presume that we'd benefit more than the person with "average" vision when viewing "small-ish" denser displays from longer distances?Absolutely. The chart above assumes 20/20 vision, or one arc minute. If your vision is significantly better than that, then the chart would look different.

I ask because I generally sit 10' or so from my display, which is currently a 768p 50". I'm thinking with my vision, I'd be able to notice a difference on a 1080p 50". How much does the chart change for 20/15 and 20/10?With 20/10 vision, you would get significantly more benefit from 1080p at 50".

The Ps3 graphic chip (CELL) Native resolution is 1080p. Sony was built to last 10 years.

PS3 is not no 360.

Please, Please, do not attempt to post beyond your obviously limited technical knowledge. Especially when the sole purpose seems to be to defend a failing, and incredibly disappointing product. Thank you.

Please, Please, do not attempt to post beyond your obviously limited technical knowledge. Especially when the sole purpose seems to be to defend a failing, and incredibly disappointing product. Thank you.

I would have to disagree with you. Just because it is not selling a lot, I would hardly call this product disappointing. I have owned a 360 for over a year now, and have had my PS3 sense December. If a game is available on both the PS3 and the 360, I purchase it on the ps3. My 360 constantly freezes up. I can't even play Tiger woods any more because it wont let me finish past the 12th whole at TPC Salgrass. Every one of my games freezes, except Gears of War, which I only recall freezing twice. I find the controls more user friendly. I do prefer X-Box live, but I feel playstation is working on that. I love having the blue ray player, mutiple usb ports, memory card slots to easily upload my pictures and information, and the built in Wireless adapter. I have yet to speak to anyone that owns a PS3, and does not enjoy it. The only people who find it a disappointment, are the ones that have never owned one themselves.

So is PS3 a good Blu-Ray player for a 768p Plasma? Or should I get the stand alone player instead? I am not really a gamer, my PS2 had been switched on for less than 100hr in total even though my whole family are quite having fun with the Wii! Well... I prefer to get go to the HD-DVD side but seems like there are not much titles available!!!! at least no spiderman... :o

So is PS3 a good Blu-Ray player for a 768p Plasma? Or should I get the stand alone player instead? I am not really a gamer, my PS2 had been switched on for less than 100hr in total even though my whole family are quite having fun with the Wii! Well... I prefer to get go to the HD-DVD side but seems like there are not much titles available!!!! at least no spiderman... :o

I found it to be a fantastic BD player. I would spend the $20 on the blue tooth BD controller. It is worth the $20. Sony loses $200 on every PS3 they sell. They are trying to flood the market with Blue Ray, so they can win the BD/HD-DVD war. Just because it is less expensive does not make it inferior from the stand alone product. I highly recommend the PS3. You can't beat that price for a Blue Ray player.

So is PS3 a good Blu-Ray player for a 768p Plasma? Or should I get the stand alone player instead? I am not really a gamer, my PS2 had been switched on for less than 100hr in total even though my whole family are quite having fun with the Wii! Well... I prefer to get go to the HD-DVD side but seems like there are not much titles available!!!! at least no spiderman... :oMany newer 768p plasmas accept 1080p60, which they then downconvert to 1366x768 to produce an excellent picture.

If your 768p display is a 2006 Pioneer, or another model that does not accept 1080p60 input, then just make certain you enable 1080i output on the PS3. If you don't enable 1080i or 1080p output on the PS3, Blu-ray disks are downconverted to 480p, as I stated earlier in the thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10445637&&#post10445637). Provided your display does inverse telecine (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10070516&&#post10070516) with a 1080i input, there is no difference between 1080i and 1080p output from a Blu-ray player on movies.

Paidgeek,

Are there any plans to update the PS3 to allow 720p output for 1080 Blu-ray movies?Scaling functions are in the works, but I don't know about this particular combination. Since it is such a common function for an HD ready display to accept 1080 and convert it to the native panel resolution, this would probably be a lower priority.

__________________
Sony Pictures BD Insider
As far as the the relative performance of the PS3 compared to other Blu-ray players:Why should the picture look different than any other player?Repost from previous thread...

Blu-ray output quality, based on benchmarks from Kris Deering and sspears:

1. Samsung BD-P1200
1. Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1
1. Sony BDP-S1
4. Panasonic DMP-BD10 (with 2.0 firmware)
5. Sony PS3
6. Panasonic DMP-BD10 (pre-2.0 firmware)
7. Samsung BD-P1000

The Pioneer, Samsung, and Sony are all ranked #1 because Kris Deering -- who conducted benchmarks -- said their output on movies was identical / indistinguishable. He said picture quality offered by those players "can't be any better" and can't be improved upon, with full resolution for luma and chroma, no CUE, no pixel cropping, and no clipping. Every other player is a step down. It's possible we'll see internal decoder improvements in the future that yield a slightly improved picture in some specific circumstances, but that's not something that would show up in a benchmark.

The output on the BD-P1200 and Sony BDP-S1 should be identical -- as far as you can tell with eyes -- on Blu-ray movies. Both are an improvement over the old Samsung BD-P1000. The BD-P1200 offers the highest quality DVD playback; it is also the only player to correctly deinterlace and output Blu-ray music / concert titles as 1080p.

Update

One could easily misinterpret the above ratings and conclude that there are significant differences in the output quality of these players. Blu-ray is a 1080p source, so it's going to look pretty damn good, regardless of the player. The player would have to do something seriously wrong for you to see comparatively poor output on a quality Blu-ray title.

As a practical matter, you aren't likely to see much, if any, difference between these players with a 50" screen viewed from 10 feet. The differences are most appreciable on much larger displays and front projection systems.

If you were to restate performance on a scale of 1-10 (10=best, 1=worst), the ratings might be more like this:10.0 Samsung BD-P1200
10.0 Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1
10.0 Sony BDP-S1
9.8 Panasonic DMP-BD10 (with 2.0 firmware)
9.7 Sony PS3
9.5 Panasonic DMP-BD10 (pre-2.0 firmware)
9.0 Samsung BD-P1000These values are meant to illustrate a point. They should not be taken as definitive ratings on performance.

If you have a larger display and want to be absolutely sure that you are getting the best possible picture quality, then you choose one of the first three players. Then again, if you want Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD decoding, you may be willing to trade a little bit of picture quality -- which you won't even notice on most displays -- for those audio capabilities.

Kris Deering has tested the DVD playback on a number of these players. You can find the full test results right here (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=0&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0) (warning: bandwidth intensive). He has not yet tested the Samsung BD-P1200, so all we have are subjective reviews of its DVD output, rather than objective benchmarks. The DVD playback scores for the Blu-ray players tested are as follows (higher=better).

Home Theater Fidelity DVD Benchmark Results

xx Samsung BD-P1200
78 Panasonic DMP-BD10
xx Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1
72 Sony BDP-S1
71 Samsung BD-P1000
61 Sony PS3

I would have to disagree with you. Just because it is not selling a lot, I would hardly call this product disappointing. I have owned a 360 for over a year now, and have had my PS3 sense December. If a game is available on both the PS3 and the 360, I purchase it on the ps3. My 360 constantly freezes up. I can't even play Tiger woods any more because it wont let me finish past the 12th whole at TPC Salgrass. Every one of my games freezes, except Gears of War, which I only recall freezing twice. I find the controls more user friendly. I do prefer X-Box live, but I feel playstation is working on that. I love having the blue ray player, mutiple usb ports, memory card slots to easily upload my pictures and information, and the built in Wireless adapter. I have yet to speak to anyone that owns a PS3, and does not enjoy it. The only people who find it a disappointment, are the ones that have never owned one themselves.

I think there is upside to the PS3. Even with a combo DVD/Blu-Ray player built it( a poor one though that severely clips blacks with no hardware scaling)to it though, its price is obnoxious. Sony tries to make it look like a good deal, but alot of people know it isn't. And the gaming side of this device took a big performance hit when they changed the specs from a CELL GPU and a CELL main CPU design, to switching to an "OK performing" video GPU in place of the added CELL processor. This and the fact it should have come with at LEAST 768mb worth of total system RAM with the majority being dedicated to video performance.
Would have rather Sony originally bail on the Blu-ray drive(make it hot swappable[The drive itself, like a SCSI Plextor drive or something silimiar] with an in store up grade or add on like the 360)built in, make it an added acessory or something. This would have allowed for the 2nd CELL processor, the extra video RAM and improved upon things like in game loading times and the ability to take better advantage of the systems future potential for things like in game detail and physics.
That being said I still love RR7 and Motorstorm for the PS3. :)

So is PS3 a good Blu-Ray player for a 768p Plasma? Or should I get the stand alone player instead? I am not really a gamer, my PS2 had been switched on for less than 100hr in total even though my whole family are quite having fun with the Wii! Well... I prefer to get go to the HD-DVD side but seems like there are not much titles available!!!! at least no spiderman... :o

Its average at best. Its only potential saving grace is constant(hopefully)firmware updates. But not sure if they can correct for things like clipping the signal output and mild pixelization in some transition scenes etc though.

I found it to be a fantastic BD player. I would spend the $20 on the blue tooth BD controller. It is worth the $20. Sony loses $200 on every PS3 they sell. They are trying to flood the market with Blue Ray, so they can win the BD/HD-DVD war. Just because it is less expensive does not make it inferior from the stand alone product. I highly recommend the PS3. You can't beat that price for a Blue Ray player.

Thats the other thing I don't like, I have to mention it. The built in blue tooth. I definetly like MS's proprietary wireless signal better, its tuned to sacrifice a bit of range for a rock solid signal. But I have experienced signal drop out issues with Sony's BT remote and their game controllers. A couple times in-game. That is annoying.

I would have to disagree with you. Just because it is not selling a lot, I would hardly call this product disappointing. I have owned a 360 for over a year now, and have had my PS3 sense December. If a game is available on both the PS3 and the 360, I purchase it on the ps3. My 360 constantly freezes up. I can't even play Tiger woods any more because it wont let me finish past the 12th whole at TPC Salgrass. Every one of my games freezes, except Gears of War, which I only recall freezing twice. I find the controls more user friendly. I do prefer X-Box live, but I feel playstation is working on that. I love having the blue ray player, mutiple usb ports, memory card slots to easily upload my pictures and information, and the built in Wireless adapter. I have yet to speak to anyone that owns a PS3, and does not enjoy it. The only people who find it a disappointment, are the ones that have never owned one themselves.


Have you ever considered that your 360 is broken????? I Own both and as a gaming console the PS3 is useless, every single game that's available for both systems looks and plays better on the 360. The only use I have for the PS3 at this point is as a Blue Ray player for movies that are not Available on HD DVD. Overall Sony blew it with the PS3, it was more important to them in terms of $$$$ to win the Blue Ray. vs HD DVD battle than it was was to win the console war. You see there is far more money in who controls the next High definition movie format than there is in the next gaming console. In five years time both the PS3 and 360 will be gone, but we will all buying and renting our moves on either Blue Ray or HD DVD. Sony sold out the game developers by insisting that the PS3 include Blue Ray player, this killed the PS3 as a gaming console, just ask the countless developers that are abandoning the system every day. The bottom line is that Sony tricked people into buying a Blue Ray player that "Oh by the way can play some games".

[QUOTE=shasta]Have you ever considered that your 360 is broken?????

Actually....yes. I have the extended warranty, but I was origionally waiting for the PS3 to come out before I braught it to be fixed. Now I just haven't found time to bring it. :p

The bottom line is that Sony tricked people into buying a Blue Ray player that "Oh by the way can play some games".

Yes, that's the intention for me to buy a PS3! And if all movie will be available in HD-DVD then I won't even give a PS3 or blu-ray a thought!

BTW, I am going to get the 507CMX + KD Card(or maybe 607CMX... waiting for the quote to see if I can afford it :rolleyes: ), since the spec on the KD card did mention 1920x1080@60 for input so is it meant better to have the PS3 output to 1080p or still 720p will be better? man... I even haven't place the order on either the pio & the PS3 yet but already so exicted!!!!

Yes, that's the intention for me to buy a PS3! And if all movie will be available in HD-DVD then I won't even give a PS3 or blu-ray a thought!

BTW, I am going to get the 507CMX + KD Card(or maybe 607CMX... waiting for the quote to see if I can afford it :rolleyes: ), since the spec on the KD card did mention 1920x1080@60 for input so is it meant better to have the PS3 output to 1080p or still 720p will be better? man... I even haven't place the order on either the pio & the PS3 yet but already so exicted!!!!

That part is preference. I would suggest sending it a 1080p signal. I'm sure someone else will debate me. I am not very familiar with the 507 or 607, so I would suggest taking advice from someone else on that issue.

There is a lot of confusion about the PS3's output ablities in this thread. Here are the facts:

- The PS3 does not output Blu-ray movies at 720p. It can output Blu-ray movies at 1080p, 1080i, 480p and 480i, and will use the highest option you have checked in the options besides that.

- The PS3 does not upscale DVDs, it only outputs them either deinterlaced to 480p or output at standard 480i when 480p isn't checked.

- All PS3 games support 720p, 480p and 480i, and will use the highest option you have checked among those.

- Some PS3 games also support 1080p and 1080i, but of those only some output those resolutions in favor of 720p, while others simply use either 1080i or both 1080p and 1080i as fallback if 720p is not checked.

- PS2 and PS1 games are not upscaled by the PS3.

- 480i PS2 and PS1 games are deinterlaced to 480p when 480p is checked, and if not they are output at 480i.

- Some PS2 games also have the option to output 480p directly, in which case that option can be enabled in game to get a straight 480p output rather than one being deinterlaced from 480i.


As of 1080P vs 720; on a 50" display at 10' you'll need better than 20/20 vision to benefit from a resolution higher than 720p. And when it comes to plasmas all 50" models are at least 768p anyway rather than 720p, so you'd need even better vision or you'll have to sit even closer to notices a difference between those 768p displays and 1080p models.

Also, the only thing higher resolution gets you is more sharpness while there is a lot more to image quality on than that, and contrast is somewhat sacrificed to make the pixels small enough to fit 1920x1080 of them on a 50" display. So if you have notably better than 20/20 vision and prefer the better sharpness over the better contrast of the lower resolution models, then you may well be more pleased with a 1080p model; but otherwise you'd likely be better off with a 768p display.

Yes, that's the intention for me to buy a PS3! And if all movie will be available in HD-DVD then I won't even give a PS3 or blu-ray a thought!

BTW, I am going to get the 507CMX + KD Card(or maybe 607CMX... waiting for the quote to see if I can afford it :rolleyes: ), since the spec on the KD card did mention 1920x1080@60 for input so is it meant better to have the PS3 output to 1080p or still 720p will be better? man... I even haven't place the order on either the pio & the PS3 yet but already so exicted!!!!

I can't say since I'm running mine into a 768p panel, but I will say that my Panny PX60U panel accepts the the 1080p signal then converts it to it's native resolution 768p. This is not the way to go however and you get a very grainy picture when using B.D. discs. I've found that you get much better performance setting the PS3 to output the native resolution of your display. Less signal processing is always better IMO.

There is no way to set the PS3 to output anything at the native resolution of your 768p panel, and if you dissable 1080p and 1080i the PS3 outputs Blu-ray movies at 480p.

- All PS3 games support 720p, 480p and 480i, and will use the highest option you have checked among those.Are you certain of that?

- Some PS3 games also support 1080p and 1080i, but of those only some output those resolutions in favor of 720p, while others simply use either 1080i or both 1080p and 1080i as fallback if 720p is not checked.I know some PS3 titles like Marvel: Ultimate Alliance basically have three different versions on disk, one in 1080p, another in 720p, and another in 480p. The only scaling the PS3 will do with games is 1080p->1080i, 1080p->480p and 720p->480p. Hence, if the game isn't written to include 720p and/or 1080p modes, you won't get those resolutions.

I'm not a gamer and am no authority on games. However, I could have sworn I read posts in the past from those who tried some of the [relatively few] native 1080p games or demos on their PS3, with just 480p and 720p modes checked, and they got 480p output to their screen. They had to re-enable 1080i to get high-def output on those games. I don't play games so this is not something I've dealt with first-hand.

The only scaling of games the PS3 does is some games which are drawn at 960x1080 and scaled to 1920x1080 for 1080p and 1080i output. Other than that the PS3 renders games at the resolution it outputs, no scaling for 720p, 480p and 480i. That doesn't mean there are 3 different versions of the game on the disk though, but rather the same content simply being drawn at up to 3 different resolutions.

In the case of proper 1080p games that means they can be drawn at 1920x1080, 1280x720, or 640x480. In the case of 720p games that means either just 1280x720 or 640x480, or the possibility of upping the resolution to 960x1080 to support 1080p and/or 1080i on displays where 720p is not avalable, or 1080p in favor of 720p in the case of the Ninja Giaden Sigma demo. So yes, I am sure that PS3 games are all simply limited by highest resolution they support, Making 1080p and 1080i support dependant on the title while all games at least support 720p along with 480p and 480i.

The only scaling of games the PS3 does is some games which are drawn at 960x1080 and scaled to 1920x1080 for 1080p and 1080i output. Other than that the PS3 renders games at the resolution it outputs, no scaling for 720p, 480p and 480i. That doesn't mean there are 3 different versions of the game on the disk though, but rather the same content simply being drawn at up to 3 different resolutions.That 960x1080 mode must be supported by the developer, and was evidently not available with the original SDK. Some games have different "effects" depending on what resolution you set, so there are some different parameters involved. That's what I meant by "different versions." The software developer "hard-coded" each resolution with different parameters to define which effects should be used in each resolution output mode.

In the case of proper 1080p games that means they can be drawn at 1920x1080, 1280x720, or 640x480 when outputting 1080p/i.So yes, I am sure that PS3 games are all simply limited by highest resolution they support, Making 1080p and 1080i support dependant on the title while all games at least support 720p along with 480p and 480i.The first comment above is not clear to me. But you are certain that every PS3 game and demo will output as 720p, even if your display does not support 1080i and 1080p input signals?

I was told the following by SCEI:The PS3 will not scale 1080 games to 720p, nor 720p games to 1080, so the developer must make the provision for those resolutions in their title.My question is whether every game developer has done the work to include 720p support in their title.

If the answer to that question is yes, then my comments regarding games in the previous page were very misleading, because they were made on the assumption that some games were "native 1080p" without the built-in provision for 720p. If every game includes a native 720p mode, then I wonder how any title can really be called "native 1080p," unless all they mean by that is higher resolution textures.

That 960x1080 mode must be supported by the developer, and was evidently not available with the original SDK.
Right, the game has to be built to draw at 960x1080 if the game is going to support drawing at 960x1080, that is what I mean about some games using that as a fallback when 720p isn't avalable or in favor of 720p for 1080p.


Some games have different "effects" depending on what resolution you set, so there are some different parameters involved. That's what I meant by "different versions." The software developer "hard-coded" each resolution with different parameters to define which effects should be used in each resolution output mode.
Sure, one obvious example is GT-HD, which uses no anti-aliasing at 1920x1080 but turns 2xAA on at 1280x720 because when drawing that many less pixels the PS3 has the rendering power to add AA. That isn't rightly different versions of the game though, but rather akin to PC games were one can turn the graphics options down to run smooth at a higher resolution or turn the resolution down you can turn the other options up.

The first comment above is not clear to me. But you are certain that every PS3 game and demo will output as 720p, even if your display does not support 1080i and 1080p input signals?
I'm sorry, that is my bad. That first comment originally read "In the case of proper 1080p games that means they can be drawn at 1920x1080, 1280x720, or 640x480 when outputting 1080p/i, 720p or 480p/i respectively." I decided to scrap the last part because it was basicly redunant, but didn't quite delete all of it. :o

But yes, I am certain that all PS3 games support 720p. The only problem with resolution support in games is that some games don't support 1080p/i, so people with displays that don't support 720p are stuck playing those games at 480p.

But yes, I am certain that all PS3 games support 720p. The only problem with resolution support in games is that some games don't support 1080p/i, so people with displays that don't support 720p are stuck playing those games at 480p.Thanks for that clarification, I will update the post on the previous page.

You really need to start getting facts straight.

I have my PS3 set to 720p output. Thats what I watch my games AND movies at. :rolleyes: I'm not even going to comment on the rest of the jargon(ie: recommending anything with the Panasonic nametag on it)......... :rolleyes:

And before you even attempt to try and come back with a "Samsung" comment towards me, do realize I ONLY recommend the latest Samsung plasma products. Their previous plasma screens were poor in comparison.

Dilf: As I stated, the PS3 is a NATIVE 720p machine. It runs its game optimally at 720p and movies look spectacular at that resolution as well. Most people can't even tell the difference between 1080p and 720p unless their face is smack dab up against the screen.

So do yourself a big favor. Get a MATURE 720p plasma display. 1080p plasmas are far from polished.

Zippy,
Have you tried your Ps3 on the 1080I setting. I was messing with it last night and noticed that the Ps3 seemed to do lettering and blu ray just a tad crisper when the 1080I mode was on.....Maybe it was just me. I have the Samsung 5054.

Also, I have been following your other post about the settings....Wanted to know what your other PS3 settings were at (Auto, RGB or YbCr..)?

Speaking of Kris Deering's HD player test... did anyone notice or pay attention to the scaler he threw in at the end? The Vantage-HD? To date, that chipset (Realta HQV) is in two Olevia LCDs.

Anyway, I'm sure it won't be too long before more TV manufacturers license the chipset for televisions... solving the issues surrounding deinterlacing and scaling things properly. I think once 1080p displays start handling content "correctly" we'll see a lot bigger improvements than we are now.


Check out the link below, and the pdf file linked within it.

http://www.hqv.com/benchmark.cfm

Just to add my 2cents the info kylebisme gave is right on.

The PS3 does not send out BD at 720 only 1080i/p or 480p, DVD's only 480p. The only real problem with the PS3 is some games do not support 1080i/p and if you have a TV that does not take 720 it will down-convert the game to 480p.

The PS3 is an excellent BD player and a sub-par DVD player.

To the OP a 720p TV works very well with the PS3.

There is a good thread here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=650544

And a good forum here:

http://www.ps3forums.com/index.php