One of the selling points to my wife about getting an HDTV is that the internal ATSC tuner will allow us to see a number of new over the air channels (the digital channels related to the existing analog channels). But she watches many of her shows at a different time than their broadcasts. I see about the HDTV recorders discussed here, but what about recording HDTV/DTV using older VHS analog recorders? Getting both a new HDTV and a new HDTV recorder would be a tough sell.

So my questions:

(1) Do any of HDTVs (LCD or plasma) have analog composite video outputs, that could be connected to an existing VHS unit? All the data sheets talk about inputs, but seldom mention outputs (few even mention anything about audio outputs). Or is an external ATSC "converter box" the only way to do that?

(2) On an HDTV like that, or on a converter box, can HDTV broadcasts be recorded to VHS from that connector? I know that the recording won't be in HD (I'm not that dumb). But will the HD programs be output converted to standard composite video?

My Pioneer Elite PRO HD1140 plasma will let me do those things. It has a built-in TV Guide on Screen program guide (the guide info is received OTA) which lets you schedule recordings up to 8 days in advance, and has composite and stereo output to a VHS recorder. You use an included "IR blaster" to control the deck (on/off).

I'm not sure, but the less expensive, standard Pioneer line may have this, too (I know it has the built-in TVGOS). Those are selling for good prices right now.

Your existing VCR will still be able to record the analog version of the OTA channel. You don't need an ATSC recorder for that. The only downside is that some shows aren't letterboxed on the analog channel (i.e. Lost, DWTS, etc).

Alternatively, there are a few devices out there now with ATSC tuners that record onto DVDs and/or VHS. They go for about $200-$300. None of these digital recorders pass the HD signal through without downconverted (meaning they are not useful as a HD tuner).

A third route is to find the discontinued Sony DHG-HDD250 or HDD500. These are absolutely great units and can be had for around $300. They record HD in full quality, which is key in my book. Very little point in recording an HD program in less than full quality. The downside is that no one knows what will happen at the analog cutoff. The Sony's depend on the TVGOS system, which is currently transmitted on an analog channel.

ft

My Samsung HL-S5086W can do this. Rear connections include a composite video OUT and stereo audio (red/white) OUT. Their use is even described in the manual under a section entitled "Connecting a Second VCR to Record from the TV".

My Samsung HL-S5086W can do this. Rear connections include a composite video OUT and stereo audio (red/white) OUT. Their use is even described in the manual under a section entitled "Connecting a Second VCR to Record from the TV".
On the Samsung you mentioned (and the Pioneer as well), does the TV have to be on for the video output to be active. If so, then it's not quite as useful. You'd have to have to TV turn on and off, which wastes energy, and for a DLP, would prematurely kill the bulb. I suppose the TVGOS system on the Pioneer would make it more useful.

Personally, I would still rather go with a dedicated ATSC recorder (DVD or VHS) over using the video outs on the TV. If the TV you're looking at has Video out, then all the better. However, I wouldn't limit TV choices based solely on the availability of video outputs.

ft

My Mitsubishi RPTV and Samsung T165 tuner both have analog outputs that can be used with non-HD VHS or DVD recorders. I've gotten very good results recording to the DVD recorder and then playing back through the component outputs with the TV set to "standard" (vs. narrow) format - it's not true HD, but it fills the 16:9 format without distortion and has better resolution than regular VHS.

But the best solution is to pick up a Mits 2000U or 1100U D-VHS machine - available for pretty cheap (less that $100) and record using the firewire output from a Mits or Samsung HDTV onto regular S-VHS tapes - full HD & 5.1 sound, works great.

Personally, I would still rather go with a dedicated ATSC recorder (DVD or VHS) over using the video outs on the TV. If the TV you're looking at has Video out, then all the better. However, I wouldn't limit TV choices based solely on the availability of video outputs.

I'm not sure about the TV having to be on - I'll look that up when I get a chance (I've never actually used that feature).

But from what he's saying, he can only upgrade one major thing, and he really wants the new TV (understandably) more than anything else first. So the "video out" feature will still allow him to use his VCR for now.

I would see if any of the newer models of displays coming out will have the 9th generation of TV Guide on Screen (or newer), which will supposedly be upgradable once they start sending the guide info over a digital OTA host channel.

I know that the new models of Pannys released so far don't include TVGOS at all. Last year's Panny 600U's had it - and it was the 9th gen guide. Maybe he could look for one of those. Last time I looked, they were still available from www.crutchfield.com for a discounted price equal to or better than from most outlets. They're a great, highly reputable company to deal with. The Pioneers that are out now only have the 8th gen. I'd have to imagine that SOME company will be including it in their next releases - unless they're holding off and waiting until the "host channel digital switchover" takes effect. Since TVGOS just signed a deal with CBS for their digital channels to carry it, that shouldn't be too far off.

Either way, if he still uses the VCR, or gets a recorder with an SD tuner, he's still only gonna be able to record in SD.

(edit: I just checked Crutchfield, and they have the 42" 600U, and the 58" 600U, both for a great price - but, unfortunately, no more 50" 600U's. Heck, if they had the 58" model at that price a month ago when I got my 50" Pio Elite, I probably would've gotten one of those instead! It's only a couple hundred bucks more than what I paid.)

But from what he's saying, he can only upgrade one major thing, and he really wants the new TV (understandably) more than anything else first. So the "video out" feature will still allow him to use his VCR for now.

Right, I understand that the OP only wants to upgrade one piece of equipment right now. That's why I was saying that he could still use his VCR to record the NTSC signals from his antenna. This would be a viable option, as long as his NTSC signals are acceptable. I couldn't imagine watching a VHS recording from a marginal NTSC signal on an HDTV.

Anyways, my point was to buy a TV that fits the OP's budget and not let the video-out feature limit the selection. The Pio is a great TV, but it's expensive. Some of the more "consumer" level HDTVs don't have video-out features. It would be a shame to scratch some really nice TVs off of the list because of one feature, especially if there's a viable work-around.

I do agree that short of getting a new ATSC recorder, the next best option for video quality would be using the TV's video out to feed the VCR. I still wonder if the TV has to be on for the video-out to be active.

ft

I still wonder if the TV has to be on for the video-out to be active.
I've been looking and looking, but for the life of me, I can't find the info anywhere in my 1140's manual :confused:.

The only thing I've been able to find out so far is that you need a VCR that has a standby mode. The TV itelf has a standby mode (naturally), so I'm hoping that if it won't record with the TV off, it'll at least turn the TV on (and hopefully off, too). That's not as bad as having to leave the TV on all the time. (Maybe a flat panel LCD would be best to go with, just in case - although I wouldn't expect a VCR to look very good on one as a source :eek:.)

It's possible that the information might be in the TVGOS setup screen. Maybe I can set it up to control the VCR in my Panny EH75 VCR/DVD/HDD recorder and see.

I know the Pio's are relatively expensive, that's why I recommended the Panny 600U - those are much more reasonable, and basically average - priced (if you can still find one - I know the 50"er's are pretty much gone). I had one briefly, and I'm pretty sure it had "video-out" capability. Also, like I said, they have the 9th gen. TVGOS, which is more likely to be upgradable for digital after the OTA analog cutoff (just from what I've gathered on other forums here). The Pio's only have the 8th gen., which I'm pretty sure won't be. The TVGOS feature would make things a lot easier for setting recordings, if that matters any to him. Plus, he'd have a free program guide, if he doesn't already have one from another source (many people actually prefer it to their cable company's guide - it's much less clunky and more similar to a satellite guide).

I was just bringing up TVGOS as an option. If his wife agrees to a certain price point, maybe he can find something for a couple hundred bucks less, and just get a DVD recorder with an ATSC/QAM tuner with the difference (that way, it won't even matter if the display has "video-out". He'll have to split the incoming signal between the TV and the recorder if he wants to view HD, of course). The newer Samsung DVD recorder supposedly has a program guide (not TVGOS). The LG gets pretty high marks around here for picture quality. I would expect the same from the new Panasonics. Then there's the Philips and Polaroid models coming out at Walmart soon, both of which have hard drives and are right around the $200.00 mark, give or take a few bills.

Thanks all, for your replies.

The issue with wanting a HDTV that I could record DTV out onto a VCR is that it gives my wife a reason to get the HDTV. She couldn't care less about high definition or screen size, but new channels is a different thing -- but only if she can time shift them.

But the other options for getting that function (though not justifiyng the HDTV screen itself) might be something to consider still. $$ is a large factor, of course, so maybe we could do a DTV tuner now and the HDTV later....

"Mits 2000U or 1100U D-VHS machine - available for pretty cheap (less that $100)"
Can you tell me where that is from? I couldn't find any under $200 even.

She couldn't care less about high definition or screen size, but new channels is a different thing -- but only if she can time shift them.
I'm confused. What new channels would you be getting?

You mentioned that you will be getting HD via an antenna. Are you currently receiving your analog TV signals via antenna? If so, you'll end up with the exact same channels, just digital. Sure, you might get some sub-channels, but typically, they're not worth the bandwidth.

ft

The CW and MyTV are subchannels of major network channels in Rockford, IL. I can get them at 45 miles out, but the analog versions, if they even exist, are unreceivable for me. If they do exist, they are at extremely low power, or originating from a town further out.

I think that's not uncommon in certain smaller markets (in Chicago those stations all have their own, separate assignments). I could be wrong, though.

Maybe this is what he's referring to???

Or maybe he's referring to PBS channels, like PBS-HD, Create, PBS Kids, PBS U, PBS Extra, etc.

Plus, there's "The Tube" (although I can't see why anybody would want to record that).

The CW and MyTV are subchannels of major network channels in Rockford, IL. I can get them at 45 miles out, but the analog versions, if they even exist, are unreceivable for me. If they do exist, they are at extremely low power, or originating from a town further out.That's very interesting. In Philadelphia, The CW and MyTV have their own separate channels (57 and 17 respectively). Both of them have HD and SD versions.

Tell me, for the Rockford situation, are CW and MyTV broadcast in HD? If so, what happens when the main channel is in HD and the subchannel is in HD? The picture quality must suffer. I guess maybe they limit the CW and MyTV to digital-SD. But then you'd lose shows like HD-Smallville.

Makes me glad that I live close enough to a big city.

ft

Thanks all, for your replies.

The issue with wanting a HDTV that I could record DTV out onto a VCR is that it gives my wife a reason to get the HDTV. She couldn't care less about high definition or screen size, but new channels is a different thing -- but only if she can time shift them.

But the other options for getting that function (though not justifiyng the HDTV screen itself) might be something to consider still. $$ is a large factor, of course, so maybe we could do a DTV tuner now and the HDTV later....

"Mits 2000U or 1100U D-VHS machine - available for pretty cheap (less that $100)"
Can you tell me where that is from? I couldn't find any under $200 even.

ABCWarehouse has them for $129, Walts TV was selling them for $99 3 or 4 months ago, probably all gone now (I picked up 2 :) ).

That's very interesting. In Philadelphia, The CW and MyTV have their own separate channels (57 and 17 respectively). Both of them have HD and SD versions.

Tell me, for the Rockford situation, are CW and MyTV broadcast in HD? If so, what happens when the main channel is in HD and the subchannel is in HD? The picture quality must suffer. I guess maybe they limit the CW and MyTV to digital-SD. But then you'd lose shows like HD-Smallville.

Makes me glad that I live close enough to a big city.

ftThey are both only 4:3 480i. (I often feel sorry for them when I flip past and see "Smallville" on :(.)

The main channels are in HD (NBC & ABC). MyTV looks OK, because it's relatively still, but shows such as "Smallville" do suffer a lot.

We get some blocking on fast scenes on "Smallville" (in 16:9 HD) here in Chicago, but it's still way preferable to what they have for sure. I don't know if Madison, WI shows it in HD - or even at all. Maybe some can get it from there.

As far as all those PBS subchannels I mentioned, we only get "Create" & "V-Me" here - but Milwaukee gets all of those. They're on VHF now, so I currently can't get them with my UHF antenna. But I can often get their PBS-HD channel, which is on a separate frequency on UHF and is 1080i and has NO SUBCHANNELS!! Really puts ours here to shame :mad:. I know that there is at least one "regular" channel there that is a CBS subchannel - I think it's WTMJ, because they occasionally show Brewers' games.