I have never personally seen an HD DVD or Blu-Ray movie with my own eyes...but I do havee several HD movie channels from my cable provider (Verizon FiOS), so my question...
Is the quality of the movie on say, HBO HD or HDNet Movies, the same as it would be on a Blu-Ray or HD DVD?

HELL NO!!!

Check out the screenshot threads :)

HELL NO!!!

Check out the screenshot threads :)

Which thread would that be? Could you provide a link? :)

Which thread would that be? Could you provide a link? :)

They're located under the HDDVD and BluRay forums.

Not even close on video or audio

Which thread would that be? Could you provide a link? :)

Here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=811102) you go

I've spotted some posts from HD disc owners saying some broadcast HD movies appear better than some HD discs. HD discs should appear better if they use more efficient codecs or higher bit rates. Broadcast movies are likely telecined from film prints. There are some claims that many/most (?) HD discs are being made directly from production digital-intermediate recordings (2k or 4k, downconverted to 1920X1080), used to 'tweak' colors after these higher-resolution telecines from film, or in some cases digital video recordings (digital cameras) not involving film until the final release to film-based theaters. Not unexpectedly, there seems to be a mix of good and poor-quality HD discs as well as broadcast movies. Perhaps, for accuracy, some spectrum analyzer measurements, similar to those undertaken several years back (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9314235&&#post9314235) (see quotes, links) should be repeated. -- John

Hi Def discs look much better than HBO HD movies...case closed.

Go pick up something like Casino Royale on BluRay and tell me your going to see that kind of uncompressed video on Sat/Cable.

Me Thinks Not!!

Hi Def discs look much better than HBO HD movies...case closed.

Go pick up something like Casino Royale on BluRay and tell me your going to see that kind of uncompressed video on Sat/Cable.

Me Thinks Not!!

He doesn't have Sat/Cable. He specifically stated he had Verizon FIOS. Knowing that, will there be that big of a difference? (other than HBO not normally showing OAR)

FIOS still uses the same bitstarved HBO-HD feed that all the other providers do. cable doesn;t normally mess with the signals they get in HD, so I would say HD channel quality on cable and FIOS should be identical.

Cable companies do rate shape (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8011489&&#post8011489) signals, including HBO, to squeeze in more channels on limited bandwidths. FIOS, while using mostly cable-TV tech so far, might be eliminating rate shaping with its all-fiber hookups. A variety of reports here indicate many cable systems and cable STBs limit resolvable detail to <1300 maximum effective horizontal resolution (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5667245&&#post5667245). But so far, haven't seen any FIOS-user reports mentioning full ~1920X1080 effective resolution from HDNet's Sunday 6:50 am ET test patterns. Here's what I measured (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5175424#post5175424) from cable a while back (and still do), and others on my system, one with a newer 1080p FP, get similar results. -- John

Here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=811102) you goThat thread is comparing HD to SD, not HD disc to HD cable/sat as the poster asked for.

Not only do the HiDef optical disc formats surpass broadcast/cable/sat in all technical aspects regarding picture and sound quality, the proof is actually in the pudding when viewing/listening to them. Broadcast/cable/sat delivered HD is without a doubt a step down from HD-DVD and Bluray, the HiDef discs being the new PQ/AQ standard.

A movie like MI3 on HD DVD will crush the Showtime version of that film every time, go and see the HD disc formats for yourself, you can never go back.

While I don't doubt that HDDVD/BR surpass cable/sat movies for obvious reasons not the least of which is bitrate, I wasn't sure if this thread was comparing all HD on cable/sat or just HBOHD, HDNet, etc.

The reason I ask is that I have Dish and find good to excellent HD on the subscription channels, but far far better movie quality on HD PPV. A computer generated movie like Over The Hedge was simply amazing. The HD PPV movies are worth the $5.

I wonder if HD PPV is closer to HDDVD/BR than HBOHD and HDNet?

If you have a provider that rate shapes (i.e. substantially degrades) its HDTV channels, like Dish or DirecTV, then you really aren't in a position to comment on the quality of the HBO, Showtime, and Hdnet source feeds compared to BD / HD-DVD. By the time those providers get done with those signals, they look very little like the original source feeds. For example, most of the artifacts, pixelization, and blocking seen with those providers isn't in the original source feed.

That said, Blu-ray and HD-DVD releases often look significantly more detailed than the movies shown on HBO-HD and ShowtimeHD. HBO and Showtime distribute their high-definition feeds in 1080p24 format (within a 1080i60 carrier) with peaks of ~14.5Mbps. In order to fit within the confines of that bitrate, both must filter out some high-frequency picture information. In contrast, Blu-ray and HD-DVD use newer codecs like VC-1 and MPEG-4 (AVC), with peaks that exceed 30Mbps (in the case of Blu-ray), so such filtering is unnecessary.

The picture quality with movies on Hdnet is often much closer to what you get with Blu-ray and HD-DVD, thanks to that feed's 18.2Mbps peaks. As with HBO and Showtime, the satellite providers mutilate that signal so it looks nothing like the original source feed, but with FiOS, you do get the full resolution and bitrate on that channel, and it looks excellent.

If you want the best available picture quality on your new display, you still need to invest in a Blu-ray and/or HD-DVD player.

Don't forget about the audio difference as well of Blu-ray/HD DVD's compared to broadcast HD...... :D

Cable companies do rate shape (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8011489&&#post8011489) signals, including HBO, to squeeze in more channels on limited bandwidths. FIOS, while using mostly cable-TV tech so far, might be eliminating rate shaping with its all-fiber hookups. A variety of reports here indicate many cable systems and cable STBs limit resolvable detail to <1300 maximum effective horizontal resolution (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5667245&&#post5667245). But so far, haven't seen any FIOS-user reports mentioning full ~1920X1080 effective resolution from HDNet's Sunday 6:50 am ET test patterns. Here's what I measured (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5175424#post5175424) from cable a while back (and still do), and others on my system, one with a newer 1080p FP, get similar results. -- John
Any chance of those measurements being done on something other than the 8300, such as firewire into a PC or a Tivo S3? I'm curious how much the decoding and output circuitry in the 8300 is limiting the resolution compared to what is actually there in the MPEG2 stream.

I wonder if HD PPV is closer to HDDVD/BR than HBOHD and HDNet?

Nope. ALL channels from DBS are now HD-Lite.

Nope. ALL channels from DBS are now HD-Lite.

No they are not. HBO and Showtime are at full resolution on E*.

I have never personally seen an HD DVD or Blu-Ray movie with my own eyes...but I do havee several HD movie channels from my cable provider (Verizon FiOS), so my question...
Is the quality of the movie on say, HBO HD or HDNet Movies, the same as it would be on a Blu-Ray or HD DVD?

Blu-ray or HD DVD will look better because, all else being equal the bitrate on the disc is much higher. Plus discs are not encoded in real time, like the channels. Even if they had similar bitrate, they would still look better as HD discs can be optimized during encoding.

No they are not. HBO and Showtime are at full resolution on E*.

I know that. But not at 17+ mbps.

So HD-Lite.

I know that. But not at 17+ mbps.

So HD-Lite.

No they are not. They were never at 17+. HBO and Showtime were from the beginning at 14.5 Mbps. That is the bitrate of their main C-Band feed. Because they use flags that sends 24fps in 60i, it basically equals 17Mbps without flags.

Of course now E* reencodes them so bitrate varies. Hd-lite should only be used, when channel resolution is lowered.

Any chance of those measurements being done on something other than the 8300, such as firewire into a PC or a Tivo S3? I'm curious how much the decoding and output circuitry in the 8300 is limiting the resolution compared to what is actually there in the MPEG2 stream.
Also curious here, although most posts I've seen here for years just mention various STBs, not necessarily 8300HDs. Those using CableCards, bypassing STBs, claim greater PQ, but haven't seen any posting of HDNet's test pattern resolution without a STB. Suspect the <1300 line readings result from both STB limitations and rate shaping--assuming providers typically feed most HD channels (including HDNet) through common processing chains within each system. Several years back Gary Merson, reviewing a 1080p display, measured ~1920 lines from HDNet's pattern using a STB for DirecTV, and this member (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8509731&&#post8509731) mentions measuring ~1920 lines within a smaller cable system. Independent, authoritative testing akin to the U.N.'s ITU tests of movie theater on-screen resolution several years back would be welcome. -- John

Also curious here, although most posts I've seen here for years just mention various STBs, not necessarily 8300HDs. Those using CableCards, bypassing STBs, claim greater PQ, but haven't seen any posting of HDNet's test pattern resolution without a STB. Suspect the <1300 line readings result from both STB limitations and rate shaping--assuming providers typically feed most HD channels (including HDNet) through common processing chains within each system. Several years back Gary Merson, reviewing a 1080p display, measured ~1920 lines from HDNet's pattern using a STB for DirecTV, and this member (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8509731&&#post8509731) mentions measuring ~1920 lines within a smaller cable system. Independent, authoritative testing akin to the U.N.'s ITU tests of movie theater on-screen resolution several years back would be welcome. -- John

I can tell you that on my Mitsubishi 1080p LCD TV picture thru cablecard is little sharper than from the Motorola DVR thru either component or HDMI.

I have never personally seen an HD DVD or Blu-Ray movie with my own eyes...but I do havee several HD movie channels from my cable provider (Verizon FiOS), so my question...
Is the quality of the movie on say, HBO HD or HDNet Movies, the same as it would be on a Blu-Ray or HD DVD?

Generally not. See this for a comparison of various SD/HD programming vs HD DVD.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=841459


The difference to you, though, will depend on the particular movie and your equipment. The larger your screen, the more visible is the difference. Ofcourse, some movies like the 5th element on Blu-ray were said to be inferior to broadcast. But the low-PQ phase of Blu-ray has now passed and they generally get the same PQ rating now as HD DVD.

anything that comes through cable becomes pixilated when it's fast moving images.

They call it HD.. I called it compressed to it's eyeballs low quality and EXPENSIVE TV

you should get a better provider, because that isn't the case with my cable provider.

you should get a better provider, because that isn't the case with my cable provider.

Second that...with FiOS, on HD channels, artifacts are almost non-existant to the naked eye.
It is my understanding that with fiber, they do not have to compress the signal as much as cable or DBS...they actually have to throttle it a bit because the signal runs so "hot" coming out of the fiber line.

The larger your screen, the more visible is the difference.
Or the closer you sit to your screen, the more visible the difference.

Or the closer you sit to your screen, the more visible the difference.

True. But usually its only with FP that you can really sit at optimal distances ... otherwise you will have sub-optimal sound.

I don't have an hddvd/bd player, but I have HBOHD. They released the sopranos' last season on hddvd/bd and I was wondering how that compared to the broadcast HD version. How exactly (if it was) was it better? Would Rome and Deadwood look significantly better on an HD disc versus the broadcast version? Just curious

True. But usually its only with FP that you can really sit at optimal distances ... otherwise you will have sub-optimal sound.
What does the screen have to do with the sound? I could have a 15" screen 12 inches from my face and still have whatever speakers I want, anywhere in the room I put them.

I agree. I sit 8 ft. from my 65" DLP and my 7.1 system is set up optimally for that position. What does having a FP or not have to do with it?

At that distance and screen size, the PQ differences between Blu-ray and my Comcast HD (which is otherwise quite good for cable) becomes very noticeable.

Blu-Ray made me not care about broadcast HD anymore.

It's not just about the picture quality, the jump in sound quality is equally impressive if you have a stereo that is up for it.

I don't have an hddvd/bd player, but I have HBOHD. They released the sopranos' last season on hddvd/bd and I was wondering how that compared to the broadcast HD version. How exactly (if it was) was it better? Would Rome and Deadwood look significantly better on an HD disc versus the broadcast version? Just curious
Assuming color and similar properties (contrast, etc.) roughly equivalent, seems you'd need a spectrum analysis comparison (HBO vs. HD discs) of many scenes to pin this down resolution-wise. A while back someone did this for 1080/24p master tapes (see sublinks/quotes (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9314235&&#post9314235)). -- John

Interesting. Though I assume the image would look a lot less compressed in the fast-motion scenes and camera pans.