I intend this to be insight for JVC into the preorder customer perspective. I do not intend it to flame, and I still have a positive view toward JVC in general, but that is waning, and I just wanted to send this info before my own personal opinion turns really ugly in an way that they could never change.

It increasingly looks like JVC is sending production to fill new orders and give dealers stock before filling existing orders.

I really hate to say it, but it seems more and more like that is the case every day.

I had a local dealer with three in stock. I could have walked out with three of them that day.

The price was higher than my prebuy price, but also reasonably discounted from MSRP, without any bargaining.

I can understand giving dealers demo units at launch, but there are a lot of people who already have orders. To put their orders off too long, IMO will create brand disloyalty.

We placed orders to be on a "prebuy", not a "whenever we get around to it or have surplus production buy". This prebuy was sanctioned by JVC, to the best of my knowledge.

I really and truly believe that JVC is prioritizing deliveries for new orders and establishing some dealer stock so that they can maximize sales.

I sold my Pearl a while ago, when we all expected prebuy orders to be filled within a month, some RS-1 orders had already been filled, IIRC.

You continue to string us along, and I find myself looking to buy another Pearl.

There is nothing more rude in customer service than being ignored, but I feel that is what JVC is doing to us on the prebuy.

In a transaction, rudeness is the one thing that I would personally remember for many years. In fact I will never forget it.

JVC, get your priorities straight and send units to your most outstanding orders first.

I personally think you are about to lose many current customers and create a lot of bad "Word of Mouth" advertising.

At the local shop I went to, the RS-1 was the only item I would have wanted to purchase for my theater, out of four, that they had in stock. Everything else (screen, etc. not other projectors) had a 1-3 week wait.

Fill our orders please.

I can't figure out if the proper saying to end with involves the emperor having no clothes or something about an elephant in the room. I guess let me say that there is an elephant in the room with no clothes, and none of us want that in our theater. :)

Best Regards,
Doug

Being a dealer I think you are wrong in your assumptions. We have had several on back order for customers from the "pre-order" time frame. We were told the next batch will be in sometime in June and we will only get two of the units we ordered because the order was placed by a certain date. Our pre-order wasn't early enough to get any of the initial allocation. Our other orders they stated will take longer with no time frame given. We can order these through a few distributors and none of them have them in stock and each has orders on the waiting list. I think JVC is trying to distribute their allocations based off orders from the distributors. Also, I am sure some distributors placed orders for units to stock and not just for units the dealers pre-ordered. I think the dealers that have them are because they had the forethought to order early, had customers change their mind for whatever reasons and they still got their allocated units or the distributor in their regioon had the forethought to pre-order a fair amount. We are all impatiently waiting :(

Hope this helps.

Bob

Some dealers are trying to buy off other dealers, its madness. :eek:

Ben

If you want one badly, can you not cancel your prebuy and pick one up from the local shop?

BobL,

I think you're missing the point, the problem is AVS negociated a special deal with JVC. They were first in line to get the RS1's and gave JVC a guaranteed amount of units. By doing that, they should have gotten all their pre-order filled first. Even before other dealers got some. That's the issue.

JVC screwed AVS, no question about it. And that is what is making everyone here angry. I think there's some bad goin's on inside JVC right now with their sale. This is horrible corporate policy and word is starting to spread.

Being a dealer I think you are wrong in your assumptions. I think JVC is trying to distribute their allocations based off orders from the distributors. Also, I am sure some distributors placed orders for units to stock and not just for units the dealers pre-ordered. I think the dealers that have them are because they had the forethought to order early, had customers change their mind for whatever reasons and they still got their allocated units or the distributor in their regioon had the forethought to pre-order a fair amount. We are all impatiently waiting :(

Hope this helps.

Bob

I was under the impression that AVS was working the prebuy directly with JVC USA and that we at AVS got in at the VERY earliest moments and as such I can't imagine a lot of units were ordered before ours. I could be wrong though. ;)

Again several people have stated that dealers have been getting units to stock(non-pre ordered units) after placing orders as late as the first of the year and if what they say is accurate...that tends support that JVC is doing a bit of selective distribution and not FIFO. That and the relative silence on JVC's part is what I believe most here are getting nervous about.

If you want one badly, can you not cancel your prebuy and pick one up from the local shop?

I agree. I bought mine through a local dealer and already have it, and enjoying it. JVC can't ignore it's dealers just to fill a niche' on-line special. They have to look at the broader picture. My guess is, if you're delayed getting your unit through an on-line special, then that's the cost of getting the unit at a lower cost than one through a local dealer.

JVC can't ignore it's dealers just to fill a niche' on-line special. They have to look at the broader picture.Then JVC should have never negociated a deal with AVS period.

If you want one badly, can you not cancel your prebuy and pick one up from the local shop?

Rickster904,

I know what you meant, and I am not being pedantic about this, and mean no disrespect, but the best way I could see to make my point is play on the semantics of the question. I mean nothing personal by responding this way. With that in mind here is my respectful response...

Yes, but I do not want one badly. :)

I want one properly, in the way that I bargained for, with a ship date in the first quarter of this year, or as close to that as possible given production constraints. I can get one badly by just staying on the list and waiting for JVC to eventually decide to fill the preorders out of excess capacity.

I do not want one badly enough to go out and buy one at a higher price now that 2 or 3 months have passed, simply because JVC does not want to send me the one I ordered in the prebuy. If I have to leave the prebuy because JVC will not honor the prebuy commitments, the projector that I buy will almost certainly not be a JVC, ever.

I understand that they wish they had more production and they wish that they could fill preorders and they wish that they could stock all their dealers, but apparently they can't. For all I know, they might even wish that they had taken no preorders at all.

In business, sometimes it makes sense to stretch some things out to try and achieve more goals.

Sometimes it also makes sense to actually fulfill an agreement. Sometimes you have to stand up and do whatever it takes to get an order filled that you have already taken.

They are pushing the prebuy customers too far, and I want to let them know that. I am not going to be forced into paying a higher price because they refuse to honor the agreement in a timely fashion.

They are going to lose one customer for life, and I do not think that I am the only one.

There is no projector that is good enough that I want it badly. There is no projector good enough that I will hang it in my theater if I am disregarded and ignored by those producing it.

The letters JVC would take on a totally different meaning, and I would not want to see them in my house. I am sure we could all come up with amusingly appropriate acronyms for the letters JVC if they continue to disregard us, but it is not quite to the point where I feel that is appropriate.

I think that it is time to tell them that they have pushed us out too far already, and it is time to step up and fulfill our orders.

Now, having said all of that, I do not know all of the inside workings of JVC.

I can just see that I have placed a preorder with JVC, and I see a lot of "post orders" getting filled first. I don't have to see much more to decide that JVC is a company that has made a business decision to treat me badly, a company I do not want to do business with. I can see dealers with stock on hand.

All is not lost yet. I do like to let people know what will make me happy, while they are still able to make me happy. If they come through in a fashion that appears to be ASAP, I will be satisfied that they tried to push things, and when told they were pushing too far, made sure and took care of the business they had already transacted.

That is why I am posting this now. They still can make me happy by fulfilling the order, but it won't be much longer before I am completely dissatisfied with JVC and nothing they do will convince me to buy or recommend one of their products.

I am not naive. I realize what business is and the significance of my order to JVC. I just wanted them to realize the significance of the order to me and the significance of their treatment of us in the prebuy, to make sure that they understand the significance of their actions to ignore and disregard us.

All this is my personal opinion. JVC can take it or leave it. I can also take them or leave them.

I am not mad, or angry, or emotional about this.

I just want to let them know that the pot is about to boil over. I am( and from what I gather from others posts, we are) not able to take much more of the heat they are giving us and still remain their customers.

I really just want them to come through and fulfill the agreement they entered, by offering the preorder price and delivery that many of us accepted.

JVC, please fulfill our preorders and honorably live up to your agreements. There comes a time when there is no substitute for performance of one's duties.

Tick tock, tick tock...

Best Regards,
Doug

The longer JVC pushes back filling the preorders on the RS-1 the closer they are to loosing those order to some other projector.

For example what happens if Sony pulls a rabbit out of their hat and starts shipping a Pearl II with 15k:1 native WITH an IRIS that pushes on/off to 45k:1 with CMS and CIH scaling? Bye bye pre-orders......

Shawn

I missed the pre-buy. I bought it locally at a decently disounted price, though not as low as the pre-buy price. My first one was defective and returned to JVC who confirmed it was a bad unit. JVC sent my dealer a loaner RS1 which I have been using for a couple weeks. My dealer notified me that my replacment RS1 has shipped and should be in early next week.

To this point, even though I had a bad unit, I have been very happy with my dealer and with JVC. By all accounts AVS has a very good reputation and I was disappointed I missed the pre-buy. Now, though it cost me a bit more money, I am glad I bought it locally.

If I have to leave the prebuy because JVC will not honor the prebuy commitments, the projector that I buy will almost certainly not be a JVC, ever

Ditto.

I am now thinking of just getting my old one fixed and wait till the next great projector is announced.

If they don't ramp up production, or do the right thing based on when the dealers ordered, fairly soon it may be too late.

They could ramp up too slow and end up with excess inventory they cannot get rid of because another great projector has hit the market.

I'm not sure the agreement AVS had with JVC. I did have one of my customers contact me sometime ago and ask if I could match AVS pre-order price and he told me the price. I said no because it was slightly below my dealer cost. I figured AVS got either volume or distributor pricing to be able to offer it so low.

About two weeks later the same customer called me and asked if I could match a different price, significantly more expensive. I asked why he wasn't going to buy from AVS and was willing to pay a lot more. He told me AVS only had the first 400 units for the special price and after that it went up to this new price and he missed out on one of the first 400.

I DO NOT know if any of this is true. I'm only repeating something my customer told me, I have no verification. The customer could have been trying to play me for a better price, I do NOT know. Somebody from AVS would have to answer that. But, possibly AVS already filled those initial orders on the special buy and the rest of the units are being allocated by regular distribution procedures. Or maybe JVC did drop the ball or had some manufacturing difficulties. Again, I have NO facts and NO knowledge of agreements between JVC and AVS.

I DO know AVS is a VERY reputable company and I'm sure they are doing everything possible to fill their orders.

Bob

Then JVC should have never negociated a deal with AVS period.

Why? They're selling a guaranteed bulk lot of units for a discounted price. But that doesn't mean they should ignore all of their other dealers. My guess is that the JVC factory is probably working overtime, and getting them out as fast as they can. Again, if you want a unit THAT bad, then do what I did and pay a little more to get it now. What? You think you ought to get your discounted unit before someone who's paying a premium price?

I'm not sure the agreement AVS had with JVC. I did have one of my customers contact me sometime ago and ask if I could match AVS pre-order price and he told me the price. I said no because it was slightly below my dealer cost. I figured AVS got either volume or distributor pricing to be able to offer it so low.

About two weeks later the same customer called me and asked if I could match a different price, significantly more expensive. I asked why he wasn't going to buy from AVS and was willing to pay a lot more. He told me AVS only had the first 400 units for the special price and after that it went up to this new price and he missed out on one of the first 400.

I DO NOT know if any of this is true. I'm only repeating something my customer told me, I have no verification. The customer could have been trying to play me for a better price, I do NOT know. Somebody from AVS would have to answer that. But, possibly AVS already filled those initial orders on the special buy and the rest of the units are being allocated by regular distribution procedures. Or maybe JVC did drop the ball or had some manufacturing difficulties. Again, I have NO facts and NO knowledge of agreements between JVC and AVS.

I DO know AVS is a VERY reputable company and I'm sure they are doing everything possible to fill their orders.

Bob

I have come to conclusions based on what I have seen and heard, which is the best I can do. I too have only incomplete information.

I have presented why I feel the way I do, and others should feel free to agree or disagree. I respect other's thoughts.

I would like to iterate that I do not speak for anyone else but myself, but I think others feel similarly.

Best Regards,
Doug

JVC sent my dealer a loaner RS1 which I have been using for a couple weeks. My dealer notified me that my replacment RS1 has shipped and should be in early next week.This is exactly why Jason and the boys should be screaming foul at JVC, they are treating everyone else better then them.

Why? They're selling a guaranteed bulk lot of units for a discounted price. But that doesn't mean they should ignore all of their other dealers. My guess is that the JVC factory is probably working overtime, and getting them out as fast as they can. Again, if you want a unit THAT bad, then do what I did and pay a little more to get it now. What? You think you ought to get your discounted unit before someone who's paying a premium price?

How would you have felt if I had walked in after you completed your agreement, and offered $50 ( or $100, or $500) more than you for the unit you already had an agreement on, and the store decided to sell it to me and make you wait?

We had a deal for a prebuy, it was not a dutch auction on ebay.

Best Regards,
Doug

How would you have felt if I had walked in after you completed your agreement, and offered $50 ( or $100, or $500) more than you for the unit you already had an agreement on, and the store decided to sell it to me and make you wait?

We had a deal for a prebuy, it was not a dutch auction on ebay.

Best Regards,
Doug

That scenerio is apples and oranges. Your situation is more like you wanted to buy a particular new DVD from Fry's at $10.00, but because of the cheap price, Fry's has already sold out. But now you're upset because Best Buy has a copy in stock for $20.00.

possibly AVS already filled those initial orders on the special buy

Nope, still a lot of prebuy folks waiting for theirs.

That scenerio is apples and oranges. Your situation is more like you wanted to buy a particular new DVD from Fry's at $10.00, but because of the cheap price, Fry's has already sold out. But now you're upset because Best Buy has a copy in stock for $20.00.
What the ......!

It's quite obvious that shodoug's point went completely over your head. A proper analogy would be more like Warner Brothers offering a particular movie to both Frys and Best Buy but it has failed to even fullfil Frys initial order while continually resupplying Best Buy with product.

That scenerio is apples and oranges. Your situation is more like you wanted to buy a particular new DVD from Fry's at $10.00, but because of the cheap price, Fry's has already sold out. But now you're upset because Best Buy has a copy in stock for $20.00.

You are the one who brought up the idea of prioritizing orders based on price, and giving priority to those who are willing to pay a premium. I just wondered how much you really respected that model.

Please, stick to apples or oranges. :)

The thing you are leaving out in the Fry's example is that the DVD company arranged to sell prebuys to Fry's, but when Fry's ordered all the ones they contracted for from their customers, the DVD company decided not to send that many to Fry's, and instead sent them to other companies that had ordered months later.

It all depends on what is agreed upon. When a prebuy is offered, I believe that it means that people are getting in line to get the first units produced.

If JVC wants to accept orders for projectors to be shipped whenever they get around to it, then they should make a "whenever we get around to it buy."

I think most reasonable people can see my position.

And I think that you do too. If you value things differently and decide to disagree, I respect that.

I am pretty well done here. The only response I am concerned with now is JVC's.

Best Regards,
Doug

tsites hasn't been around in a while. I think JVC knows they 'screwed the pooch' on this deal. I could be wrong.

tsites, if you're a stand-up guy, please check-in and explain why you company is treating us like this.

tsites hasn't been around in a while. I think JVC knows they 'screwed the pooch' on this deal. I could be wrong.

tsites, if you're a stand-up guy, please check-in and explain why you company is treating us like this.

Let us not forget that he could be a stand-up guy (and I believe him to be), but he might not be able to speak for JVC at this time in this manner, about this situation.

He has proven that he does speak when he can.

I was really hoping to hear from them in the form of something that could be double boxed by AVS and sent on.

Best Regards,
Doug

Let us not forget that he could be a stand-up guy (and I believe him to be), but he might not be able to speak for JVC at this time in this manner, about this situation.I don't buy that. He spoke up plenty when he was hyping the RS1 before it shipped! Now, just radio silence

deleted

Gratuitous insult of posters' self-absorption? Check:

This threads represents the typical bunch of DIY's (which I am NOT saying represents all DIY's) happily sailing along in your self centered universe in which you think the Earth is the center of the universe and you are at the center of the Earth.
Snitty indictment of posters' ignorance? Check:

It's a new product folks and you don't have a fricken clue about manufacturer distribution or how it works. When the Wii and the Playstation came out and were in short demand the manufacturers did this really wild thing called "allocation". Otherwise one manufacturer such as Walmart or who ever got their order in first would have ordered every Wii on the planet. In which case the manufacturer would OUTRAGE all their supporting dealers and destroy themselves.
Pedantic parading of "expert" knowledge? Check:

So while the real business world is a novel concept to some of you, AVS and you're pre-orders are not the center of of the universe. JVC has hundreds of dealers and they are going to try to even out distribution as any manufacturer who wants to succeed in a market place would.
Graceless self-puffery of inside connections? Check:

I happen to be in the largest A/V distributor in the country last week and they were in the same boat as AVS. They were sold out waiting for replenishment. Imagine that.
Parting infantilizing of posters' temperaments and priorities? Check:

Grow up and wait for your projectors. It's a TOY, not a prescription for a life saving drug.

I believe, gentlemen, we have a Harmonic QQQvergence. :)

Please keep dealer talk out of this thread. End user rant only!

I don't know of any distributors that have any in stock or really knows how many they will get, or when. I'm not saying that some don't, I just don't know of any. The real problem is of course, is the fact JVC is only sending a really pathetic amount into the usa.

I'm sure there is a reason for this and since I don't the reason, I'm not sure I really like the idea of them having problems with production. Also, given the fact JVC's future is somewhat clouded right now, don't really help.

But of course they are going to spread the small amounts coming in over the entire country, that's just the way it works, for most things like this. Regarding the pre-buy price, only a direct dealer buying direct in large amounts could compete with that. But right now nobody can really buy large amounts, sooo.

There are only two issues that have any substance in these threads:

1 - JVC isn't able to get enough RS-1s to dealers.

The fact that a couple of other dealers have some units can be due to many reasons, such as (sheer speculation) that they (or their distributors) ordered stock units at the time initial allocations were offered by JVC, rather than just placing an order for pre-sold units. Also, AVS was likely forced to increase its initial order over time, due to the stronger than expected demand, and as a consequence may now not be in as good of a priority position on the later orders, as compared with other dealers who placed orders in the initial allocation.

Of course JVC may have unfairly targeted AVSers on the pre-buy list, just to irritate the largest and most vocal group of A/V hobbyest on the internet, but somehow this does not seem real likely.

On a related point, it was reported months ago that the HD-1 was not selling as well as the RS-1, and there was talk of re-badging these units to RS-1s, to help fill the demand on the pro side of JVC. As I recall at the time there was much complaining among some AVS members that swapping cases and packaging to re-badge HD-1s would be improper. Whatever the case, the two distribution channels at JVC do not share inventory and I read nothing into the fact that some HD-1s are available.

Kind of reminds me with the anger a number of people expressed at JVC for introducing the HD-1 in Europe before the RS-1 shipped in the US.

2 - Poor communication - My assumption is that AVS communicates what they know concerning the timing of RS-1 availability, when they know it. I also believe that they do not speculate - i.e., if JVC says that another 20 units might be available in three weeks, this will not be reported until it's a sure thing. Any reader of the forum knows that AVS would be crazy to speculate on availability, given the flaming that goes on around here. AVS could report that they know nothing new every week or so, but I think that's kind of implied.

So, it's left to others to speculate.

Yes, those who still do not have the RS-1 are disappointed. But no one is out any money, AVS is filling the orders in the order received and JVC is trying to parcel units out to its dealers as available.

Kind of like trying to buy a PS3 for xmas. Supply and demand.

Marcel J Dumeny

After all, that's much more important than having a functioning supply chain and staying in business.
Man, I'd hate to think how long it would take to get an RS1 if their supply chain wasn't functioning properly. :p

Gratuitous insult of posters' self-absorption? Check:


Snitty indictment of posters' ignorance? Check:


Pedantic parading of "expert" knowledge? Check:


Graceless self-puffery of inside connections? Check:


Parting infantilizing of posters' temperaments and priorities? Check:



I believe, gentlemen, we have a Harmonic QQQvergence. :)
I agree it was a really BAD post on my part, quickly written and not well worded without having read the entire thread. I apologize and have deleted it.

Seems the only logical solution here is for AVS to stop taking pre-orders...at least stop taking them without manufacturer delivery commitments. While it is understandable that JVC cannot ship all units to AVS before their other dealers, AVS probably shouldn't have taken orders for product that they don't have and can't get. By the time I have mine in hand (if I don't cancel my order on principle before then) it will be almost half-a-year after the time I was told to expect it. Half a year in Consumer Electronics is an eternity! Hind-sight is 20/20, so I can give AVS the benefit of the doubt this time. I just hope that they've learned from this and will get a little back-bone with their suppliers next time, in the form of a contractually committed delivery quantity and time, instead of stringing hundreds of us pre-orderers along on nothing more than hope. Either that or stop with the pre-order thing altogether...

So many of your thoughts are ones you would not have if we were sitting somewhere discussing this over lunch.

You are reading more into my text than is there.

I don't really expect them to change anything because of me. In general, I do try to let people know what will make me happy, while they can still make me happy. It seems to work OK for me overall. That is all.

The short of it is:

If you do not want to give priority to prebuys, don't organize with a company to provide one.

If you do organize a prebuy, and if it looks like you are sending units to other places that ordered later, be prepared for people to figure you are someone they do not wish to do business with.

It really has absolutely nothing to do with me, other than the fact that I happen to be one of the people who tried to do business with them in a way that they had arranged, and it really looks like they are not living up to it.

I do understand providing units to dealers and filling up the supply chain. If you cannot do that and deliver on a prebuy, then don't organize a prebuy. There certainly is some misunderstanding here. And just to show you that I am not totally self-centered, I will propose that not all of it was on my part. :)

I have no idea what they will do, and doubt that they even really care about me. I do think that they care about customer perceptions overall. I am just letting them know how I feel. They get to decide if they can or want to do something about it.

Believe it or not, if you let someone know what will make you happy in time that it will still make you happy, sometimes they can do it. I hope they can and I hope they do.

Best Regards,
Doug

I agree it was a really BAD post on my part, quickly written and not well worded without having read the entire thread. I apologize and have deleted it.

I have read enough of your posts to "know" you. No biggie.

Best Regards,
Doug

I can understand people being upset that their pre-orders are being ignored, while dealers have them in stock.

Of course JVC has to fulfill orders with their other dealers, but they shouldn't have extended the pre-buy offer if they couldn't fulfill those orders. JVC can fulfill the orders, they just would rather take care of other more important distribution channels first. That's probably a smart business decision in the short term, but consumers have long memories about being treated this way.

This is why I never want to buy a new product where demand greatly outstrips supply. The manufacturers and dealers know they have the upper hand, and they will always exploit it.

It's the same in the car market, a hot new car comes out, like the new Mustang, Thunderbird, PT Cruiser, Prius, etc and everyone wants one. Individuals scoop them up and try to flip for ridiculous prices, dealers ask thousands over full MSRP, if you pre-order one, you have to take whatever they give you, regardless if it's the wrong color, trim, options etc.

Your much better off with a little bit of patience. Let the riots subside and let the bugs get worked out, and then make your move when you have the upper hand.

I also wanted an RS-1, but I knew it was going to be circus for at least the next year, so I bought a Sony Pearl instead and I am quite happy with it. At one time, it was the projector all the enthusiasts were going crazy for.

The JVC is the better projector, but I got an amazing product at half the price with no bugs or backorders. Dealers were eager to sell at discounted prices and had plenty of inventory. If something was wrong, I know I would have no trouble getting a new one sent out. Parts and service were widespread and easily accessible.

There is always going to be a better product around the corner, technology improves so ridiculously fast. Consumers should use that to their advantage.

At the time of Preorder (late november 2006) JVC's estimate, passed along by AVS to those who asked was that most or all of the prebuys would be shipped in the initial order. DIDN'T HAPPEN.

After very small initial quantity arrived in late FEB/early March, JVC said in these very pages that the end of March shipment would mostly fill all preorders. DIDN'T HAPPEN.

After the insufficient number in the March shipment, JVC again stated that all pre orders would be filled with the end of March/early April shipment. DIDN'T HAPPEN.

JVC assured us that April/May would fill all prebuys. Now the end of April/early May shipment has come and probably gone and guess what? DIDN'T HAPPEN.

JVC has once again told AVS that the next shipment - end of May - will fill prebuys. My guess is that IT WON'T HAPPEN.

I work for a large company that designs and manufactures product for world wide distribution in the consumer audio industry. I understand the difficulties of designing to a specific delivery date and building and shipping high end product. It is really hard to do and there are all kinds of problems that crop up. However, JVC made the deal with AVS and other dealers in England and probably elsewhere to deliver a quantity of RS1's and HD1's at a reduced dealer cost so that large numbers of pre-orders could be taken. This deal was made about 3 months before the product would be ready and generally before most of the buyers could even see what they were signing up for. Granted, no money changed hands, but there was an agreement between we buyers and JVC (through AVS or whomever) anyway.

JVC did start delivering the product more or less on time but at a reduced quantity. Knowing how difficult this product probably is to build, I can understand and forgive that. Where JVC is very wrong or perhaps deliberately just plain telling a lie is the monthly statement that everything will be taken care of in the next shipment. Don't say it if you don't mean it JVC! If JVC had been more accurate about the real delivery schedule I could have made an informed decision in March to look elsewhere, even if it would be for more money or perhaps another brand. But by stringing me along month by month, I trusted them and didn't pursue other options. They (JVC) apparently figure that most of us won't back out with the end so near and that gives them the ability to sell projectors to others at full dealer margin. This is just my hypothesis as I don't have any inside information, but it is a valid theory and very possibly real. What is real is that JVC is not delivering on their monthly promise to fill backorders.

To those of you that have gone local and purchased a projector recently - my best wishes to you. If I had not gotten involved with this prebuy (my first and last one) I would have done the same thing, and may still do so. But do remember, JVC offered the prebuy to help convince their upper management that the project would be viable. They were also trying to buy increased market share with the promotional deal. They were also trying to create a feeding frenzy. All of these things they did successfully. Perhaps too successfully and they have now created a monster that they can't contain. As an initial member of the prebuy, I am a minor contributor to JVC's success and for my effort, I just plain got screwed!

Though I agree it feels like we are getting the "shaft", I know why some dealers are getting them besides us. Distribution. I am direct and a very, very large dealer. But, I don't compete with the distributors for JVC since they deal with many, many dealers. So the problem is that dealers aren't getting them directly from JVC before me, but the larger distributors are. Then they are selling them to the dealers (albeit not as competitive a price). Now I could order them from the distributors and get them just as quickly, but again, at a much higher price. That is how they have chosen to handle it.

Well, the distributor that I work with (which is one of the two largest JVC Pro distributors, with multiple offices nationwide) has only received about 40 units to date. All of those were on the second "wave". They got none on the first shipment and none recently. OTOH, I know people that go through much smaller distributors that have received stock, so I really don't know what the heck JVC's doing.

Though I agree it feels like we are getting the "shaft", I know why some dealers are getting them besides us. Distribution. I am direct and a very, very large dealer. But, I don't compete with the distributors for JVC since they deal with many, many dealers. So the problem is that dealers aren't getting them directly from JVC before me, but the larger distributors are. Then they are selling them to the dealers (albeit not as competitive a price). Now I could order them from the distributors and get them just as quickly, but again, at a much higher price. That is how they have chosen to handle it.
This is just our capitalist system at work. Every company wants to maximize their profit. Promises or waiting lists mean little when every unit can be sold at a higher price. Sorry but its "put-up or shut-up" :)
However JVC did promise that everyone at AVS would be taken care of by the last day of June. Whatever that is worth.

However JVC did promise that everyone at AVS would be taken care of by the last day of June. Whatever that is worth.

What's the source for this promise? TIA.

That "promise" changes every month...
February...no March...April for sure...ok May...June now.

What's the source for this promise? TIA.
From Jason:
"Update on JVC RS1...
First off, I just got back from a much needed vacation so sorry about the MIA.
We were supposed to get a small 3rd batch of RS1's this past April. They still haven't shipped but should be any day. More (larger batch) will follow later in May. JVC said that ALL orders for us will be filled by June at this point. This is according to JVC.

I know many of you have been waiting for a long time, and for that I apologize. Please understand it is out of our control. If you decide you cannot wait, then we understand and can cancel your order. For those who are willing to wait, we are adjusting our price structure to those who have ALREADY ORDERED. This does not apply to the November preorders (price is the price), but rather this is for those since then. Though we understand just about everyone would rather have their units now, we hope this pricing adjustment serves as a gesture of our appreciation for the business and support of the forum.

Thank you again for all your support and patience!

A/V Science, Inc. "

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=842892

I agree it was a really BAD post on my part, quickly written and not well worded without having read the entire thread. I apologize and have deleted it.


Bah, no freaking way!

I guess I'm one of the few on the list who is not upset... yes, I want my RS1 and yes JVC seems to be having problems. Having said that though, I'm glad AVS offered all of us the opportunity to get in on the pre-buy. Even though it's taking longer than expected to complete the transaction, I know it's not their fault. I certainly wouldn't want AVS to consider *NOT* offering pre-buys in the future because of this experience (as was suggested here).

Everyone is getting so spun up about not getting their RS1 yet... and to what ends? Nothing has or will change because of it. The RS1 is still the best projector for the money. None of us have spent any money yet and we are all still free to purchase a different projector if a better one were to come out in the mean time. We're also free to decide we'd rather pay more money for an RS1 from a different source or buy a different projector altogether. No one is being forced to do anything here. It reminds me of the old service adage... "Cheap, Fast, Accurate - you pick which two you want". In my case, I'd rather wait for an accurate projector at a cheap price.

I guess I'm one of the few on the list who is not upset... yes, I want my RS1 and yes JVC seems to be having problems. Having said that though, I'm glad AVS offered all of us the opportunity to get in on the pre-buy. Even though it's taking longer than expected to complete the transaction, I know it's not their fault. I certainly wouldn't want AVS to consider *NOT* offering pre-buys in the future because of this experience (as was suggested here).



That would make two of us, anyone else?

=In my case, I'd rather wait for an accurate projector at a cheap price.Well, that states your positiion.

You ask to what end does it do to post our disfavor. Well, we know that the rep from JVC reads this thread. We're just letting them know they are not acting very professional with their crazy distribution methods. They should wake up and do the right thing before their name gets dragged through the mud any more than it already has. I believe in being honest, not telling lies about when the units will ship and acting like a stand-up professional corporation.

Where does making all sorts of unsupported accusations without having all the facts fall into your personal philosophy?

I certainly wouldn't want AVS to consider *NOT* offering pre-buys in the future because of this experience (as was suggested here).


I do not expect this to change anything. Over the years pre buys/power buys, there have been very few hick-ups at best and even in this case the speed at which JVC has been ramping up production to fill back orders may be a disappointment but no one is out any money and free to do as they please and of course we appreciate the support from those waiting it out. At times we are quiet but we are laying low preferring not to join in on the speculations with the best interest of our customers in mind to not create false promises. Im sure JVC would like nothing more then to get all these orders filled. Its money in the bank for everyone that result in happy customers.

I guess I'm one of the few on the list who is not upset... yes, I want my RS1 and yes JVC seems to be having problems. Having said that though, I'm glad AVS offered all of us the opportunity to get in on the pre-buy. Even though it's taking longer than expected to complete the transaction, I know it's not their fault. I certainly wouldn't want AVS to consider *NOT* offering pre-buys in the future because of this experience (as was suggested here).

Everyone is getting so spun up about not getting their RS1 yet... and to what ends? Nothing has or will change because of it. The RS1 is still the best projector for the money. None of us have spent any money yet and we are all still free to purchase a different projector if a better one were to come out in the mean time. We're also free to decide we'd rather pay more money for an RS1 from a different source or buy a different projector altogether. No one is being forced to do anything here. It reminds me of the old service adage... "Cheap, Fast, Accurate - you pick which two you want". In my case, I'd rather wait for an accurate projector at a cheap price.


Fair points Brad. It may just be venting, but if JVC does in fact read this then it might be productive venting. At the very least, I would hope that AVS would hear us and take steps to protect their own reputation next time around. You're also obviously correct that we are all free to take our business elsewhere. If that weren't the case - if AVS had taken advance payment and refused to return it - then I'm certain this would be a heckuva lot uglier than it is.

The reason for the frustration, and the reason I believe it is fair to express it, is that delivery time has a direct correlation to overall value of a product. Put more simply, I know that I can buy the exact same product at significantly lower price if I am willing to wait 6 months. Just look at the price deterioation of the Sony Pearl during the 6 months after it's release:

http://www.nextag.com/SONY-VPL-VW50-1080p-515487902/price-history-html

So, being told to expect delivery of a price-volatile item like a projector in February, and not actually receiving it until June, results in significantly less (~20% give or take) overall value to us purchasers than we were told to expect. Is it the same product? Of course. Is it the same value? Absolutely not. Am I going to cancel my order because of it? I haven't decided yet, but with the value of this particular deal shrinking with each passing day, I'm considering it.

I feel for AVS here, because I know their hands are somewhat tied. I assume that they are screaming at JVC with as much force and frequency as we are communicating here. At least I hope they are...

-tony

I feel for AVS here, because I know their hands are somewhat tied.

-tony


I would hope that AVS would hear us and take steps to protect their own reputation next time around.

-tony

See quote #1 ;)

See quote #1 ;)


LOL. "Hands tied" does not equal "mouths gagged". :)

LOL. "Hands tied" does not equal "mouths gagged". :)

.

I think our posts crossed. We were both typing at the same time. I had just posted this:

At times we are quiet but we are laying low preferring not to join in on the speculations with the best interest of our customers in mind to not create false promises.

Jason makes posts when he has information to post other wise we chose to not join in on the speculation which only makes things worse as expressed by our customers :(
We never know how many we are getting until they arrive. We have been told in the past how many to expect as they shipped only to find out we were shorted due to QC problems so we do not listen to anything anymore as this resulted in disappointed customers which we want to avoid.

Double post fixed, thanks for the heads up :)

I think our posts crossed. We were both typing at the same time. I had just posted this:



Jason makes posts when he has information to post other wise we chose to not join in on the speculation which only makes things worse as expressed by our customers :(
We never know how many we are getting until they arrive. We have been told in the past how many to expect as they shipped only to find out we were shorted due to QC problems so we do not listen to anything anymore as this resulted in disappointed customers which we want to avoid.

Double post fixed, thanks for the heads up :)

I hear ya Alan. My "mouths gagged" comment was actually intended to mean that I hope you guys are talking with JVC and passing along some of the frustration that your customers have expressed. As much as I hate it, that squeaky wheel adage often holds true.

I don't have any problem waiting, for a while. I understand very well that JVC is having problems meeting demand.

It just looks like a pattern might have been starting. The small amount of units that came in for the third wave indicated to me that production was going somewhere else, in a big way.

Prebuy to me does not mean the ones that are left over, eventually.

I think that this is the time to speak up. In one or two months, it would have been too late to do any good, IMHO. Then all you can do is gripe, and they would have absolutely no time to fix things.

What speaking up actually accomplishes, I will probably never know, but if it was going to be done, this is the time, IMHO.

I just hope that JVC can produce these units and get them to us in a reasonable amount of time.

Part of being a good customer is speaking up before things get ugly, and I think that things were going to get really ugly.

I just really wish that JVC could send the units out in the order that they were ordered.

Best Regards,
Doug

Of course JVC may have unfairly targeted AVSers on the pre-buy list, just to irritate the largest and most vocal group of A/V hobbyest on the internet, but somehow this does not seem real likely.


Marcel J Dumeny

Why does this sound irrational? Maybe JVC corporate enjoys these abundant (inane) similar thread topics about shipping dates and speculation that always seem to work themselves out.

.............(dealer talk).........................pleaassse keep this thread going, this is better than watching my Goo systems paint dry :)

I will be offline for the next few days.

Best Regards,
Doug

Hi Alan and Jason,

I imagine you're right, prebuys don't go several months with mis-stated expectations, usually. And I appreciate that you can't directly control either JVC's allocation, nor QC problems. However, you haven't yet addressed the key factor:

-> Reputable large-volume dealers, who are "shorted" compared to the initial expectations, do not merely sit "with hands tied". They become the conduit for their customers' grief, an advocate internal to the system. They pointedly tell the manufacturer they are losing goodwill (for both mfr and reseller), are upsetting customers, and they need to get their act in order.

I've seen nothing about that, here ... what steps has AVS taken with JVC to press the customer feelings?

It is certainly _not_ the case that "no one is harmed" - these delays cause hundreds of customers loss of use of the promised new product. Many people are unable to watch due to disposing of their projectors, bulbs out, etc. A simple mathematical way to calculate that real dollar value is to divide the price by the likely life (e.g. $150/mo., assuming no salvage). Then, the reputable dealer would request hat the manufacturer provide a discount to alleviate that customer upset.

If you have taken these steps, please tell us. If not, please do so, then tell us the results. In rare long-delay situations like this, our loyalty to AVS becomes "at risk", as I'm sure both you and JVC know.

I think our posts crossed. We were both typing at the same time. I had just posted this:

Jason makes posts when he has information to post other wise we chose to not join in on the speculation which only makes things worse as expressed by our customers :(
We never know how many we are getting until they arrive. We have been told in the past how many to expect as they shipped only to find out we were shorted due to QC problems so we do not listen to anything anymore as this resulted in disappointed customers which we want to avoid.

Double post fixed, thanks for the heads up :)

Hi Alan and Jason,

I imagine you're right, prebuys don't go several months with mis-stated expectations, usually. And I appreciate that you can't directly control either JVC's allocation, nor QC problems. However, you haven't yet addressed the key factor:

-> Reputable large-volume dealers, who are "shorted" compared to the initial expectations, do not merely sit "with hands tied". They become the conduit for their customers' grief, an advocate internal to the system. They pointedly tell the manufacturer they are losing goodwill (for both mfr and reseller), are upsetting customers, and they need to get their act in order.

I've seen nothing about that, here ... what steps has AVS taken with JVC to press the customer feelings?

It is certainly _not_ the case that "no one is harmed" - these delays cause hundreds of customers loss of use of the promised new product. Many people are unable to watch due to disposing of their projectors, bulbs out, etc. A simple mathematical way to calculate that real dollar value is to divide the price by the likely life (e.g. $150/mo., assuming no salvage). Then, the reputable dealer would request, nay insist, that the manufacturer provide a discount to alleviate that customer upset.

If you have taken these steps, please tell us. If not, please do so, then tell us the results. In bizarre long-delay situations like this, our loyalty to AVS becomes "at risk", as I'm sure both you and JVC know.
These are excellent points Stew. Certainly AVS should post what they have told JVC. In fact, I think they should also post the wav files of the telephone conversations so you can be satisfied that they have taken appropriate "steps with JVC to press the customer feelings"?

Alan was kind enough to send me a wav file of his conversation with JVC. See attachment.

I've seen nothing about that, here ... what steps has AVS taken with JVC to press the customer feelings?
The serious answer to your ridiculous post is that short of AVS saying "we're doing our best" they don't owe you a single explanation regarding their internal communications with the manufacturer.

QQQ

Though I don't know you, I see many of your replies are merely sarcastic, like these three ... undeserving of a reply. I'll await an earnest reply from Alan and Jason.

Thread turned non productive. Thread closed.

For those who missed it here is the latest update from our end:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=842892

Unfortunately supply has not meet demand from JVC. AVS is not alone publicly voicing JVC ramp up production. I am sure they are feeling the pressure world wide.


Thank you!