Ok, I admit it. I've been very slow to upgrade my projector. I'm one who does so infrequently, but when I make the move, I want to get the best available, without paying stratospheric prices.

When I bought my Sony VPL-VW10HT back in 1999, it was amazing. By today's standards, it sucks. Blacks are gray or purple. Contrast ratio is probably in the 500:1 range. Yet most visitors find it overwhelmingly great. One of the reasons is that I use a very large screen...10ft wide. The Sony claims to have 1000 lumens. I use it on the lower bulb setting, and in theory, at least, it dims by 20%, so perhaps 800 lumens. My room is totally light controlled, but I do watch a lot of sports and regular HD programming with some lights on.

I've nearly purchased a lot of projectors, including the $30K Sony Qualia (just couldn't justify the price), and the VW50 (but it didn't seem very bright at CEDIA). I've thought about 3 chip DLPs because of their high lumens, but would prefer to stay under $10K.

I've not yet seen an RS1, but I've certainly read all the rave reviews. But 700 lumens?? Will this really be dimmer than my 7 year old dinosaur? Or is that 1000 lumen rating on my 10HT just BS ?

Bottom line is that I want the great contrast ratios for serious viewing, but I'm not willing to put up with any projector dimmer than my current one, and in fact would prefer brighter. Advice please.

The Sony claims to have 1000 lumens.
Is that before or after calibration to D65?

It's usually better to compare lumens after calibration to D65.

I'm just using the manufacturer's specs. I had it calibrated a few years ago, but it didn't do much to improve things, and I didn't get a lumens output number at the time. Is it possible to buy or rent an inexpensive tool to get the current lumens output? That would be great, as then I'd really know what to expect by way of comparison.

The very bright InFocus 777, a 3-chip DLP, is now $9999.00.

Is it possible to buy or rent an inexpensive tool to get the current lumens output?
See this thread: Using the CA813 light meter to measure your front projector (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755705)

Thanks so much for that link, Erik. I think I'll make that investment so that I have a point of reference when looking at purchasing projectors.

Tom, I'm aware of the IF 777, and even the 333 which AVS had (has?) on sale for even less. If other PJs turn out to be too dim for my tastes, I may go that way, but later technology and 1080p are my first choice.

What about the Optoma HD81 (1400 Ansi) or the upcoming Optoma HD81-LV (2500 Ansi)? Full HD resolution and pretty bright, I guess.

I currently have a Sanyo PLV-70 (2200 Ansi) and I'm not going to accept less light output of a new projector either. My screen is 353 cm wide and the brighter the picture is, the better it looks (even in a totally light controlled environment). I simply don't understand people who say 700 Ansi is enough - it's not! Maybe on a screen smaller than 100".

I used to have a Sony VPL-VW10HT too, but when I switched to the Sanyo, I was overwhelmed by the difference! The picture looks so much more brilliant if the projector is brighter - it really makes a huge difference.

My next one will probably be the HD81-LV. I've personally tested the HD81 and it's very good already, so I expect the LV version to blow me away.

Regards!

So, all in all, what is the best way to enhance brightness.

Ok, I admit it. I've been very slow to upgrade my projector. I'm one who does so infrequently, but when I make the move, I want to get the best available, without paying stratospheric prices.

When I bought my Sony VPL-VW10HT back in 1999, it was amazing. By today's standards, it sucks. Blacks are gray or purple. Contrast ratio is probably in the 500:1 range. Yet most visitors find it overwhelmingly great. One of the reasons is that I use a very large screen...10ft wide. The Sony claims to have 1000 lumens. I use it on the lower bulb setting, and in theory, at least, it dims by 20%, so perhaps 800 lumens. My room is totally light controlled, but I do watch a lot of sports and regular HD programming with some lights on.

First, consider two things (one touched on, one not):

1) Projectors are often far overspec'd in terms of brightness. Many are rated at far from D65 and as a result, are substantially dimmer when calibrated. I believe 40% dimmer is not unheard of. That "1000lumens" could in reality be more like 600lumens at D65.

2) Projectors dim over time, substantially. IIRC Bulb life is rated in time to 50% brightness. So with a 7 year old projector, it would be unlikely that your current PJ is over 500lumens just due to dimming over time.

All in all, what you have now, is almost certainly nowhere near 1000 lumens. Probably under 500 if I had to guess.

I've nearly purchased a lot of projectors, including the $30K Sony Qualia (just couldn't justify the price), and the VW50 (but it didn't seem very bright at CEDIA). I've thought about 3 chip DLPs because of their high lumens, but would prefer to stay under $10K.

I've not yet seen an RS1, but I've certainly read all the rave reviews. But 700 lumens?? Will this really be dimmer than my 7 year old dinosaur? Or is that 1000 lumen rating on my 10HT just BS ?

Whether or not the 1000 lumen rating is BS, the RS1 would almost certainly be brighter than your PJ is now, from what I've read, the RS1 really hits 700lumens at D65. Now if your VW10 is over-rated, it's likely the RS1 is as bright or brighter than your VW10 was new.

Bottom line is that I want the great contrast ratios for serious viewing, but I'm not willing to put up with any projector dimmer than my current one, and in fact would prefer brighter. Advice please.

One final thing, brightness is not linearly perceived, it's non-linear, much like loudness. 1000 lumens won't appear 30% brighter than 700 lumens despite being 30% "greater". To demonstrate this, just switch between high and low modes on your PJ, that's ususally a 20-30% difference in lumens, but doesn't appear anywhere near 30% different.

"So, all in all, what is the best way to enhance brightness."

More lumens and/or a high gain screen.

I simply don't understand people who say 700 Ansi is enough - it's not! Maybe on a screen smaller than 100".People "say" this because SMPTE has established a standard for brightness that applies to commercial theaters, which is 12-15 ftL. For a 110" 1.3 gain screen, 700 ANSI lumens is more than enough light to meet that standard, which most people will find quite satisfying. For myself, more brightness than that just produces eye strain.

It's interesting but we measured less than 400 lumens from the RS1 at my house with a new lamp.

The HT 5000 measured around 1100 lumens also with a new lamp.

Art

It's interesting but we measured less than 400 lumens from the RS1 at my house with a new lamp.

Art


With the lamp in HIGH mode?

327 lumens low lamp 425 high lamp

Art

Art, how do you account for this discrepancy? Your numbers are only slightly more than half of what Greg Rogers found, and certainly your room is state of the art.

And how does the RS1 brightness compare to your stacked G-90s? I'd like to know both numerically, and subjectively by viewing.

The frustrating part of this is that it seems the ratings are not worth much. Perhaps they can only be judged by comparing the results one particular reviewer gets in one particular room comparing various projectors. For me, I think the only way I'll know whether a unit is brighter than the one I have is to bring it into my theatre along side the old one.

Ken

Nope you cannot compare your old PJ against a new PJ - because you would be comparing old lamps to new lamps. If you do want to do that - then get a ND2 filter to approx the new lamp being old. I assure your Sony is nowhere near 1000 lumens like you think.

There are many things that impact lumens - typically hi/lo power lamps is a 20-25% cut, calibrated modes can be as much as 50-60% cut from blowout modes, irises can be as much even as an 80% cut, lens shift/zooms can be as much as 50%. Most importantly for your comparison of old vs. new - lamp life is nothing but an average when those tested reached 50% cut in brightness - under perfect lab conditions with no deviation specified. Odds are that half the people with an old lamp are worse than 50% cut even before that ANSI hours!

Your best bet is to read calibration reviews by writers who have proven consistently capable in measuring lumens - never purchase a PJ on specs.

Your 10' widescreen requires 675 lumens to achieve the SMPTE 12ftL movie brightness - but double that to account for 50% lamp aging and you are at 1350 lumens - which rarely exists especially calibrated. So decide you want to average 12ftL and you would require 1000 lumens calibrated.

Thank you, Krasmuzik. I can certainly get a new bulb for my current PJ to use as a reference, and I'll likely have to do that anyway in the coming months (I'm on my fifth bulb).

But the 12ftL figure, and corresponding lumens requirement is a great help as well. Seems like the RS1 would be fine if only the bulb didn't age so quickly. One could just replace it frequently, but that gets expensive. Perhaps we're getting near the point where 1000 or more calibrated lumens can be obtained along with a five digit contrast ratio.

Your best bet is to read calibration reviews by writers who have proven consistently capable in measuring lumens - never purchase a PJ on specs.


Evan Powell's VPL-VW10HT measurements:

Though the unit is rated at 1000 ANSI lumens, it has a "cinema black" mode that improves contrast over the normal mode and is preferred by many for home theater usage. Cinema black mode reduces the rated light output to about 700 ANSI lumens. After optimization with Video Essentials, the effective ANSI lumen measurement falls in the range of 500 to 550.

So, at 550 lumens with 40% reduction for bulb age we've got 330 lumens. On a 10ft wide screen you're looking at about 6 foot-lamberts. If you like your current brightness you should be satisfied with the brighter 1080p projectors currently out.

327 lumens low lamp 425 high lamp

Art, do you recall how many hours were on the lamp in Tom's demo RS-1?

327 lumens low lamp 425 high lamp

Art

What is really interesting is that Greg Rogers and Cine4home measured

Max throw high lamp 563 lumens

Min throw high lamp 791 lumens

And Cine 4 home measured:

Max throw high lamp 500

Min throw high lamp 720

So, Ken the RS1 should be fairly close in brightness to your Sony when it was new.

Art, do you recall how many hours were on the lamp in Tom's demo RS-1?

No I don't unfortunately, but it didn't appear nearly as bright as my stack on the same screen and my combined system gets less than 500 lumens.

I have a little over 10 fL measured in the same spot as the RS1 was measuring 9.0 in high lamp amd 7.2 in low lamp in my room.

I certainly would trust Greg's numbers though. Also interesting the HT 5000 measured 982 lumens after calibration and was blindingly bright compared to either my stack or the RS1. It really looked like it easily had multiples of the amount of reflected light.

Art

So Art, is there an HT5000 in your future? Or is the contrast ratio not high enough for you?

So Art, is there an HT5000 in your future? Or is the contrast ratio not high enough for you?

The contrast ratio is way below what I'd like to see but it has many very seductive qualities to the picture it throws. I'm looking at a change and right now it is at the top of my list.

Art

To be fare to JVC it was a prototype not that I believe the production model will be much different. My RS1 will be in soon, and when it does get here Cliff (Overclkr), and myself will be doing a G90 Stack to RS1 compare at his upcoming tuga party. We intend to get measurements off both setups, as Ken Whitcomb will be in attendance. The RS1 is no light cannon but even on Art's larger than life screen, it look good to me.

In summation let me just say, pending heavy drinking we should have the numbers that people asked about.

The RS1 is no light cannon but even on Art's larger than life screen, it look good to me.



Me too ! :)

Art

"What's the truth about brightness?"

Everything else being equal, the brighter PJ wins. That's what your eyeballs tell your brain, anyway.

"What's the truth about brightness?"

Everything else being equal, the brighter PJ wins. That's what your eyeballs tell your brain, anyway.


Agreed ! :)

Art

I'm dying to know what power xenon bulb will be in the Diamond...

Coincidentally, last nite I was playing with my Sharp 12k's iris setting while watching "Employee of the Month". It is a fairly bright movie that takes place almost entirely inside a shopping warehouse. When I switched to high brightness mode, the picture really came alive. Then when I went back to high contrast mode, it looked REALLY dim. I was very worried that now that I'd seen the bright picture, I wouldn't be able to go back. I flipped back and forth several times, comparing the pictures. There were a handful of dark scenes that looked much better with the lower brightness, but overall, I clearly preferred the brighter picture. Eventually, I left it in high contrast and watched the rest of the movie. After a while, I couldn't remember what mode I had left the pj in, and I couldn't really tell by the picture. I did guess correctly after a bit, but I wasn't absolutely sure. Just goes to show you that your eyes will adjust. At some point, I assume that it will get too dim to watch, but for now, I'm quite happy with the lower lumens. By the way, It's a calibrated 12k, low lamp, high contrast, on a 110" DIY light grey screen. I'd be surprised if I were getting more than 5 ftL.

Rob

Everything else being equal, the brighter PJ wins.

Yes, a nice simple truth...

I'm not helping you this time Kreisman, old pal.

I'm dying to know what power xenon bulb will be in the Diamond...

It sounds like you know what the diamond is, do you care to share with us some things ?

Art

I only wish I knew more!!! Believe me! I'm looking to get 2 more projectors, besides the Ruby I already own, as well as one for my Dad, because I think the DWIN HD700 CRT I gave him is not doing too well...

I think the Ruby goes good in the bedroom, less use so XENON bulb is OK. Probably get a RS-1 or a Pearl replacement (Guest room) for Playstation/HDTV/computer games because they use the high pressure mercury lamps and last a longer time/cheaper. Then I can replace the Ruby with the Diamond in the main room (demoting the Ruby to the bedroom).

In any case, after doing lots of Google searching, the only thing we know for sure is that the Diamond:

1) Will be 120 Hz
2) Will use a more powerful XENON bulb than the Ruby

We have to assume that theyare also going to implement the better panels like JVC and use wiregrid polarizers.

The Ruby claims 900 ANSI Lumens with a 400W Xenon bulb, so I'm dying to know what new XENON bulb we will see in the DIAMOND. Is 800W too much to ask?

If you combine 120 Hz, twice the lamp power, wiregrid polarizers (native 20,000:1 on/off), and the dynamic iris, this should make one hell of a projector... Certainly, better optics or at least the ability to purchase better optics separately for an additional price would be great as well. I'm very excited about the Diamond as it really could be a great projector: Think RS-1 in terms of on/off contrast but with 3-4 times the brightness and near perfect colors.

Obviously as you increase the bulb wattage, you decrease on/off contrast, but when you combine the DI and the wiregrid polarizers, I'm basically thinking you end up with an overall product that is similar to the RS-1 but 3-4 times as bright (with the added benefit of the color purity of XENON, and excellent color management).

Considering the Sony 4K projector uses a 4,000 watt xenon bulb, I don't think 800 watts is too much to ask for in the diamond...

Another thought is that the Diamond, with the various IRIS settings, could be one of the most flexible projectors ever... one touch button ability to set the IRIS to our liking depending to what material we watch... from light cannon... to on/off maximus (and anything in between) this will hopefully be a signifcant step forward....

Here is to hoping for another similar revolution as the Ruby first introduced when it hit the market.... coming to CEDIA 2007!!

"Obviously as you increase the bulb wattage, you decrease on/off contrast"

Not so, though a common misconception.

Hmmm. My thought is that you increase lumens/Bulb output, you increase scatter... Is this not the case? You mean there is no penalty in SXRD for increasing from 400W to 800W bulb other than heat production?

Everybody complains about the poor ANSI contrast with Lcos/SXRD/LCD usually around 300-400 range... How does DLP achieve such high ANSI contrast and how would LCOS/SXRD/LCD improve from the 300-400 range to the 1000 ANSI contrast level? What is the ANSI contrast of the Sony Cinema ALTA 4K projector again? I think the on/off contrast is only around 2,000:1 last I checked....

"My thought is that you increase lumens/Bulb output, you increase scatter... Is this not the case?"

Yes, but other things being equal, the scatter increases the same % as the brightness, so CR is the same.

Health Nut
DLP
mirror on state -> light goes here
mirror off state -> light goes there

LCOS
light goes in through liquid crystal layer -> light is scattered

light goes out throug liquid crystal layer -> light is scattered again

Both technologies use a mirror layer but with lcos you have things hurting ANSI.

Ahhhhh thanks!!!

Damn scatter!!! Where are my laser powered psychadelic neutron nanoflippers!!! I mean Magneto crystals!!

In any case, I really hope Sony employs an 800W Xenon Bulb for the Diamond, and I hope the damn thing ages much more gracefully...

Taking bets: Anyone care to guess the what the new Xenon Bulb power will be for the Diamond? (We know they are putting in a more powerful Xenon bulb, that and 120 Hz is all we know for sure).

By the way can you have an improved 400W xenon bulb such that you have the same wattage rating but more output? I'm trying to think of the case with lightbulbs in general... I mean, how important is the wattage rating and what is the most you think we can expect for the Diamond?

My thought is that you increase lumens/Bulb output, you increase scatter... Is this not the case?"

Yes, but other things being equal, the scatter increases the same % as the brightness, so CR is the same.

But isn't on/off contrast different in the sense that it is proportional to the amount of scatter... I mean ANSI contrast might stay the same as you increase bulb output... but wouldn't you still have decreased ability to produce true black? Come to speak of it, why does DLP have such trouble producing true blacks...?

For some reason, I thought when brightness is increased, it increased black level proportionally more than white level, thus hurting CR.

If this is the final spec of the new SXRD panels, then they are only 5,000:1 contrast. Sure they are 120 Hz, but I don't see JVC contrast levels... (DI aside)

http://www.sony.co.jp/SonyInfo/News/Press/200704/07-033/index.html

why does the link get ruined?

www.sony.co.jp/SonyInfo/News/Press/200704/07-033/index.html

I hope the panels going into the Diamond are better than that listed there...


■「0.61型ハイフレームレートSXRD」の主な仕様




ディスプレイ素子 SXRD　（Silicon X-tal Reflective Display）
　表示サイズ 　対角1.54cm　（0.61型）
　画素数 　1920H×1080V画素
　反射率 　74％
　コントラスト（デバイスとして） 　5000：1
　画素ピッチ※2 　7μm
　画素間スペース 　0.35μm
　応答速度 　2.5ミリ秒（立上り・立下りそれぞれ）
　配向膜 　無機配向膜
　駆動素子 　0.35μm MOSプロセス
　液晶セルギャップ 　2μm以下


Please say that the panels in the Diamond are better than these....

"But isn't on/off contrast different in the sense that it is proportional to the amount of scatter... I mean ANSI contrast might stay the same as you increase bulb output... but wouldn't you still have decreased ability to produce true black?"

What I said before holds, but to respond to the above, it has proportionately decreased ability to make the whites dark.

" For some reason, I thought when brightness is increased, it increased black level proportionally more than white level, thus hurting CR."

This is true if you use a larger iris to get more light at the expense of CR, but if the *only* thing being done is putting a brighter lamp in, then "all other things equal" holds and CR is the same.

DLP
mirror on state -> light goes here
mirror off state -> light goes there
Except at the corners and edges of the mirrors where there will also be scatter due to diffraction. This implies that contrast goes up as the mirror dimension, D, increases. If corner scatter dominates edge scatter then contrast increases proportionately to D^2. If edge scatter dominates corner scatter then contrast increases proportionately to D. If (as is likely the case, because of all the fuss made about dark metal) scatter from the substrate dominates mirror scatter then, assuming that the inter-mirror gap is constant, contrast increases proportionately to D.

Unfortunately chip piece-part cost goes up at least as fast as D^2 which means there is a practical limit to how much TI can increase contrast merely by increasing the mirror dimensions.

OTOH, what I have just written could have nothing to do with the real problem.

Ohlson - thanks for the insight though. It seems at least provides a plausible reason why LCoS can have both higher on/off and lower ANSI CR than DLP.

Brent