I know this is the 20k forum but im posting this question here anyway because I think there is more experience on the topic here then anywhere else.
My friends live in Tamp Florida, lightning capital of the world. They just built a house which left them low on budget for a while. They have a modest system, Sim1 chip in a media type room. Storm season is just starting for them. They cannot afford the big guns. What would you recommend.
The projector, sat, cable, dvd and vcr would all be plugged into this.

Thanks!

THese guys seem to have a VERY robust warranty.

http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/1085.asp

What about these guys? Their products are not too expensive. Of course, they ought to be used in addition to a good surge protector:

http://www.deltala.com

Actually, these guys are also very highly regarded in the Pro AV world

http://www.surgex.com/

It depends on if that warranty actually pays out. As discussed here before, nothing will provide protection if lightning strikes in say a 1 block radius. I've seen lightning jump switch gaps in an on/off switch, killing the TV set when lightning struck close to the house.

I'm guessing that many of these warranty claims are denied, similar to UPS denying damage claims to their shipment. They hope the customer will go away and won't wade through the red tape required to get reimbursed. I also figure some fine print protects against heavy surges like lightning, or they can simply claim that the failure of the device was not surge related.

I'd tell your customer to unplug the device from the AC outlet if they expect a lighting storm, including disconnecting the satellite/antenna/cable wire.

Surgex and the other one specifically mention lightning.

Not sure about the inevitable red tape though.

If you go with 240 volts and an Isolation step down transformer you will gain more currant on your one 120 volt line due to power conversion doubling. You also make no power line path available for the lightning to travel. Sat or cable or phone lines these are still vulnerable however.

I use the Richard Grays sub station about $3K but having 40 amps on one circuit is the best. All my gear is on one circuit so there are no hum bars or 60 cycle hums just inky black silence and amazing dynamics. Couple this with a few RGPC 1200's and you have the best conditioning too.

Read specs and warranties carefully. Phrases like "protects from lightning strikes up to 200,000 volts" do not mean what you think as the voltage can be in the millions. Isolation transformers can magnetically couple. Ground wires of insufficient size can melt forcing a surge elsewhere. Certain devices for computer centers can isolate the load from the line but they are impractical for most household applications.

If anyone knows of whole-house lightning protection of remotely reasonable cost please post as I would be very interested.

If anyone knows of whole-house lightning protection of remotely reasonable cost please post as I would be very interested.The best I've found has been a good insurance policy. A direct or near-direct hit will fry your system. There are fairly cheap whole-house protectors (Panamax, etc.) that get hard wired into your breaker box.

Thanks everyone. Some good common sense here.

Allen I like your idea. Thank you!

Alan, the problem with just going with a plug in unit, regardless of who makes it, are severalfold. For example, the surge is already in the house and will seek the easiest path to earth ground. That may be through any number of appliances, all of which cost money. Further, because your friend's devices are all located a goodly distance from earth ground, the effectiveness of any surge protection device must be derated by a substantial amount. That's because a surge is a high energy, high frequency occurence and the wire in your house actually presents a large impedance even though its DC resistance is low.

The most pragmatic solution would be to first install a whole house system, wherebye incoming AC, phone, cable, and/or satellite must pass through first. This is what I use.

For the incoming AC and phone, I picked up the Delta Residential Package and installed it myself. That took care of my primary concerns about the AC and phones.

http://www.deltasurgeprotectors.com/wizard.cfm?tid=1&phaseid=1

For the coax, I obtained an Altelicon Model AL-FFFF-9.

http://www.hyperlinktech.com/web/dss_cable_tv_lightning_surge_protector.php

Costs, IMO, were quite reasonable. I could equally as well have obtained any number of products from any number of companies, some known, some, as these probably are, unknown. Additional protection, where felt to be desireable was obtained by $1 Intermatic plug-in units that I got at Home Depot from a wheelbarrow full of stuff they were discounting to get rid of. I simply filled a bag with them and stuck them on things like the dishwasher, washing machine, garage door openers, microwave, etc. For the HT, I picked up a unit from Transtector for a little under $100 that was based on Silicon Avalanche Diodes. I'd estimate that my total cost for doing the entire house was a bit under $250.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, earth ground is very important. In some areas of Florida, the soil is quite sandy and drains quickly. While it may pass NEC muster, protecting human life and transistor life require an even lower resistance (impedance) path. Hence, if there's only one grounding rod, installing a second, properly sunk, spaced, and bonded to the first, will greatly improve the effectiveness of the whole house approach.

After this, your friend can install whatever floats their boat but you first stop the intruder before it gets into your home.

like anything... before you look at ANY widgets or overpriced boxes... TAKE CARE OF YOUR GROUND.

THis will fix far more in both home protection, and in equipment performance.

Chu Gai ( good stuff thank you ) and Dizzman

I still have to ask, would adding properly installed lightning rods deter and re direct the energy making the need for anything outside of basic surge protection in the house an option. Thanks!

Lightning rods can act to mitigate a blast directed at the house, but unless your friend's house happens to be the highest point, a lot of it Alan is a matter of probability. Besides, it won't do anything if there's another surge making its way through the AC lines. What you want to do first is deal with incoming surges...throttle them down so instead of something 10's pr 100's of thousands of volts and amp making its way into your home, the vast majority is safely directed to earth ground. Then, what comes through will be only a few hundred volts and that can be dealt with very effectively.

The thing with joules btw, (mine I think is 2K per leg) is nothing more than increasing the longevity of the device. We're not looking to absorb the surge, merely divert it. If you treat your home like a business, then you layer your protection starting from the outside. Make sense?

Thanks again. I have a much better understanding then when I first posted :)

Alan, I have the surgex type on my 20 amp circuit that feeds the theater. But I also come out of the fuse/surge box with a 20 amp plug and receptacle, then continued with the romex into the theater. In the summer I don't use the theater if there is a big storm as nothing will stop a direct hit. I throw the breaker and then unplug the line completly disconnecting any path to the equipment. You could do the same with a 30amp line if needed. Not the best solution but cheap and when unplugged will stop anything short of an EMP

FYI Richard Greay Power supply did not stop lighting damage to a 50" fujitsu I owned. I hear claims from this company that have proven totally untrue to me in real WORLD CONDITIONS. Two thumbs down to RGPC.

I also try to isolate the satellite from the rest of my system. I use a glass toslink cable from my sat to my CBIII. If the sat gets hit it keeps the current from flowing to my processor and the rest of my components.

Our local power company rents meter collars for a modest monthly fee. Your friends might check with their power company until they decide when and whether to purchase something.

What is a meter collar and what does it do?

Thanks!

What is a meter collar and what does it do?

Thanks!

It is a gap type surge suppressor that the power company inserts under your electric meter. The idea being to try to shunt off a heavy lightning hit before it gets to your main panel. It's used in conjunction with a garden variety plug-in surge supressor and may increase the effectiveness of the latter. That said, I believe all of this stuff is a crap shoot, and there is no substitute for a good insurance policy with a deductible one can stand to pay if all else fails.

It is a gap type surge suppressor that the power company inserts under your electric meter. The idea being to try to shunt off a heavy lightning hit before it gets to your main panel. It's used in conjunction with a garden variety plug-in surge supressor and may increase the effectiveness of the latter. That said, I believe all of this stuff is a crap shoot, and there is no substitute for a good insurance policy with a deductible one can stand to pay if all else fails.

This is just a large version of the standard surge protector (MOD, IIRC). This type wears away with every surge that it stops, so eventually there is none left. You can by these meter installed types at Home Depot and have your own electrician put them on which in the long run is cheaper than the forever monthly charge that the electric company charges.

You can unplug, disconnect, shut down the breakers and all that, but can you always do it? What if you're on vacation, a trip to the store, visiting friends and relatives, sleeping, etc.? While utility companies do rent collars or other devices (by me it's around $10/month), they may be undersized depending upon the locale. Further, most, AFAIK, don't offer devices to protect incoming phones and cable. Nor will they augment your earth ground (an easy DIY job). Undersizing means that in an area that's prone to a lot of cloud-to-ground strikes, the longevity will be greatly diminished. While I'm no electrician, my own personal investigations based upon visiting places like ground satellite dish installations and telcos as well as discussions with engineers at places like Polyphaser, suggest that protection on the order of 2000 joules per leg for areas like Florida, Texas, parts of the midwest offer reasonable assurances of a respectable lifetime under adverse conditions. I absolutely concur that having a house insurance policy that's specifically tailored to special personal needs is a good idea, like one that offers full replacement with no proprating or even deductible.

We have frequent lightning storms where I live. In my case I found the power company's deal to be reasonable enough, and it is their problem to replace the meter device as necessary. That combined with my insurance policy leaves me worry free for a few bucks a month. :)

Hi Alan,

It's been 6-8 years since I worked under PE's on the design of power systems for computer centers and large buildings. As has been suggested, there is a lot of BS out there, but there are also some very competent and effective devices.

Surge-X is the originator of the series-mode protection, which is quite useful. Furman later introduced their spin on it as well. These tended to be for smaller, discrete loads up to maybe 20A. The one that really caught my eye last year was Torus Power (www.toruspower.com). They have some larger units that can actually serve as a sub-panel for a system while providing both surge protection and noise isolation. They are reasonable in price if you were otherwise providing similar capacity, but are probably beyond the budget you are looking for.

The thing to remember about MOV's is that they re-direct the surge to ground, which is why people have been talking about insuring the ground its good. In sandy areas, it is common to have higher resistance to ground, and sometimes you need to drive a couple of rods or drive them a bit deeper. A good practice on a budget would be to spend the money on an MOV-type protection device that is inserted at the main panel. Combine this with local, common surge protection, taking absolute care to also protect/isolate all phone, cable and satellite connections to the system.

The issue is not really the lightning following the easiest path to ground, but that electricity will flow where ever you have high Voltage differences that are close together with limited insulation. If MOV's direct a surge to ground, and that ground crosses with the cable, satellite or phone lines, it's easy for a surge to occur in components. This is in fact the loophole that most of the surge protection companies use.

Finally, realize that MOV's are intended as sacrifical devices. If they get hit hard once, or maybe 3 times and still function, they need replacing or servicing in the fancier units. That is of course the advantage of the series mode devices, where they can take hits repeatedly.

cineramax

Sorry for your damaged Fujitsu. I would like a bit more info if you please. What were the circumstances surrounding the failure? IE how was the panel plugged into the power source? what other devices were plugged into the panel and how were they plugged into the wall? Did any other devices fail from the lightning strike?

This info will go a long way to chasing down the root cause of the failure.

Lastly what did Richard Grays Power Company have to say about your issue?

Yours would be the first issue I have heard about and I know that it can happen if the rgpc unit is not the right one or installed incorrectly.

I look forward to hearing your detail. If you like you can phone me or PM me.

All:

There is a lot of FUD and marketing BS in this portion of the electrical device industry, and some of it has already been repeated in this thread. However, there are some relevant, performance-based standards that can be very helpful when evaluating surge protection schemes, ANSI/UL1449 being the most directly applicable. The 1449 standard has recently been updated, and there is another update that is pending for 2009. Though these updates are largely aimed at larger commercial/industrial TVSS products, there are also some changes that are relevant for home use.

Below is a link to a document that does a very good job of explaining the types of devices available, what they can accomplish, how to assemble a complete protection system, and how to evaluate the published ratings for devices.

[Caveat 1: This is from a manufacturer, not an independent third party. However, most of the concepts presented are not specific to any particular design, and much is quoted directly from the relevant specs and independent research.]

[Caveat 2: This is a highly technical document designed for systems designers and specifiers. It is NOT light reading, so it will take some effort to absorb all that is presented within.]

Surge Suppression Guide (http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@ee/documents/content/sa01005003e.pdf)

Rule #1. Electricity (lightning included) wants (needs) to find ground

Good Idea #1. GIve Electricity lots of good clean paths.

Many problems go away or get minimized with good proper grounding.

I live in south louisiana, luckily Rhumidity is always very high, but we still get our fair share of afternoon thunder/lightning storms around this time of year (not to mention hurricanes)....In 20 years I have never had anything die due to a lighting strike, including the time we had a plasma ball float through the living room --->leading me to assume that a direct strike on the house was the catalyst. Anyway, one thing actually did die during that time, a single modem, 14.4 if i recall, putting the year around mid-90's....

All of my eletrical systems have been over built, to near commercial standards with all multiwire branch circuits (not that that matters in a strike, but to illustrate that the eletrical subsystems were actually planned!), and driven copper pipe for grounds (and not 3ft of pipe!)...check out this link, thats how you ground
http://www.groundhawgs.com/

Maybe i'm just lucky....

Rule #1. Electricity (lightning included) wants (needs) to find ground

Good Idea #1. GIve Electricity lots of good clean paths.

Many problems go away or get minimized with good proper grounding.

Hi

Leviton has a range of whole house TVSS ( Transient Voltage Surge Suppressor) that are reasonably effective and are typically installed at the entrance panle. These must be properly grounded as well else the surge will "look" for an easier path and this can be your house appliances or worse your HT components... A good TVSS starts at $200. I do not know how much a licensed electrician would charge to install them in the USA.

Aside from the surge protectors themselves and however effective they are, grounding is essential to provide a path for a surge to dissipate... Unfortunately it is not always as evident as many think. Just driving a rod or several to the ground (pun intended) does not a proper ground make. It depends on several factors amongst them the soil resistivity, the amount of humidity in the soil, etc. Grounding can be rather involved and in some instances, one has to suplpment the soil with electrolytes, thus the use in some instances of what are is called Chemical Ground electrodes e.g http://www.erico.com/products/ChemRod.asp which I have used in some high resistivity soils one finds in Haiti's mountains.

Your best bet is to consult a licensed electrician familiar with grounding , he/she would conduct measurements of your soil and based on her/his experience will suggest grounding scheme which can be as simple to bond a conductor to the main water entry to more complicated ones like multiple electrodes grids to chemical electrodes.... it does not have to be involved but must be well done for any surge protection device to be effective.

I LOVE that ground Hawg thing.

Word to ANYBODY putting in a system that wants the best performance... buy one of those and sink a dozen ground rods around the house and get the electrician to properly bond them all to the house ground.

I love that thing!

.. buy one of those and sink a dozen ground rods around the house and get the electrician to properly bond them all to the house ground.

Ummm....no. You do NOT want grounds in multiple locations more than a few inches apart, unless you are installing a wide-area mesh grounding grid. During a nearby lightning strike, the potential between grounds at points several feet apart can be thousands of volts, resulting in a grounding failure or worse.

Think of it this way. If you have a single point that is hit with a 100KV strike, what is the ground potential 1 foot away? 10 feet? 100 feet? The potential (charge) has to dissipate over time and volume, so the potential 100 feet away is clearly different from the potential 200 feet away. This can create a destructive ground-loop current that you don't want any part of.

Ummm....no. You do NOT want grounds in multiple locations more than a few inches apart, unless you are installing a wide-area mesh grounding grid. During a nearby lightning strike, the potential between grounds at points several feet apart can be thousands of volts, resulting in a grounding failure or worse.

Think of it this way. If you have a single point that is hit with a 100KV strike, what is the ground potential 1 foot away? 10 feet? 100 feet? The potential (charge) has to dissipate over time and volume, so the potential 100 feet away is clearly different from the potential 200 feet away. This can create a destructive ground-loop current that you don't want any part of.

I am interested in your understanding of the above statement since we test ground systems and sometimes redesign and attempt to improve on them for industrial and commercial customers. When designing ground systems for Utility, industrial and commercial facilities, a 'mesh type' system is typically installed with multiple ground rods at the perimeter as well as at support columns throughout the facility. In some cases we recommend installation of a 'triad' to improve the ground resistance when one ground rod does not meet the specific code or customer requirements. So I am wondering what your take on this matter is?

I am interested in your understanding of the above statement since we test ground systems and sometimes redesign and attempt to improve on them for industrial and commercial customers. When designing ground systems for Utility, industrial and commercial facilities, a 'mesh type' system is typically installed with multiple ground rods at the perimeter as well as at support columns throughout the facility. In some cases we recommend installation of a 'triad' to improve the ground resistance when one ground rod does not meet the specific code or customer requirements. So I am wondering what your take on this matter is?

A mesh grid is the best possible solution, as it reduces the ground impedance across the profile of the building. This has the effect of reducing the voltage gradient from one side to the other, which is obviously a good thing.

NEC requires a SINGLE grounding connection for a building; there is a reason for this. The reason has to do with ground potential gradients, and their potentially unsafe impact. If I have two pieces of equipment in a given room, powered by two different services, with two different grounding points, the potential between the two grounds can be unsafe.

To give a trite example: Assume you have a musician holding a guitar connected to an amp fed by service A, connected to a ground rod on the West side of the stadium. He/she is also singing into a microphone connected to a PA system fed by service B, connected to a ground rod on the East side of the stadium. There is a distance of several hundred yards between East and West.

Now insert a lightning strike (we'll take it on faith that our performer isn't bright enough to get out of the storm - must be a rap act ;) ) near the West ground rod. The guitar will try to rise to the potential of the West ground rod, while the mic will try to stay at the potential of the East ground rod. This could easily be a difference of a couple thousand Volts, with enough energy to result in a truly exciting and unrepeatable performance. :eek:

Now substitute a grounding cable for the extra-crispy singer. What happens? The ground cable that links the two ground rods becomes a fuse.

A mesh grid will provide a low enough impedance to actually conduct the charge from one side of the building to the other, effectively creating a low-impedance region in the otherwise high-impedance dirt making up the earth's surface. An isolated above-ground cable acting as a link can't do that, because the impedance from the center of the cable to any point of ground is just far too high, given the speed and energy content of the transient.

Now, alternatively, if both the mic and guitar are connected to the same grounding point, then you at least have both of them at the same basic potential (assuming that both sounds systems have similar grounding characteristics). Now, you still may have an issue of the potential between the electrical ground of the PA vs. the local ground potential in the area of contact (the singer standing on the stage), but you have at least reduced the number of potentially lethal voltage levels.

Make sense?

i did say to bond all of them together.

And most importantly i did say to get an electrician involved.

There's the point of no return. If you electrical system takes a direct lightning hit no form of protection is going to help. You can have several million volts at 100K amps or more with a rise time measured in a nanoseconds. Nothing man made you can afford is going to stop that amount of energy.

The best lightning protection is a good insurance policy.

A mesh grid is the best possible solution, as it reduces the ground impedance across the profile of the building. This has the effect of reducing the voltage gradient from one side to the other, which is obviously a good thing.

NEC requires a SINGLE grounding connection for a building; there is a reason for this. The reason has to do with ground potential gradients, and their potentially unsafe impact. If I have two pieces of equipment in a given room, powered by two different services, with two different grounding points, the potential between the two grounds can be unsafe.

To give a trite example: Assume you have a musician holding a guitar connected to an amp fed by service A, connected to a ground rod on the West side of the stadium. He/she is also singing into a microphone connected to a PA system fed by service B, connected to a ground rod on the East side of the stadium. There is a distance of several hundred yards between East and West.

Now insert a lightning strike (we'll take it on faith that our performer isn't bright enough to get out of the storm - must be a rap act ;) ) near the West ground rod. The guitar will try to rise to the potential of the West ground rod, while the mic will try to stay at the potential of the East ground rod. This could easily be a difference of a couple thousand Volts, with enough energy to result in a truly exciting and unrepeatable performance. :eek:

Now substitute a grounding cable for the extra-crispy singer. What happens? The ground cable that links the two ground rods becomes a fuse.

A mesh grid will provide a low enough impedance to actually conduct the charge from one side of the building to the other, effectively creating a low-impedance region in the otherwise high-impedance dirt making up the earth's surface. An isolated above-ground cable acting as a link can't do that, because the impedance from the center of the cable to any point of ground is just far too high, given the speed and energy content of the transient.

Now, alternatively, if both the mic and guitar are connected to the same grounding point, then you at least have both of them at the same basic potential (assuming that both sounds systems have similar grounding characteristics). Now, you still may have an issue of the potential between the electrical ground of the PA vs. the local ground potential in the area of contact (the singer standing on the stage), but you have at least reduced the number of potentially lethal voltage levels.

Make sense?

Mauney,

Your response here makes more sense. I understood you to originally say that the mesh system or multiple ground rods in a system are not a good idea. I wanted you to clarify. I think you were confusing a single source of grounding while using a mesh or triad system, with bonding to multiple ground locations within a facility.

As long as anyone is using a mesh system or multiple ground rods and bond them properly to the main ground reference location, you will not have ground loops, potential differences in grounding locations etc.