What the heck happened. There seem to be precious few on the market these days. In my humble opinion, the hard drive option was the best thing to happen since VCR's came out.

Is there some reason that hard drives on not being offered anymore. And no, I don't want to get a Tivo.

Anyhow. If someone could enlighten me as to why few if any DVD players come with a hard drive, I would greatly appreciate it....:)

I am not aware of any DVD players that contained hard drives? You can bet your bottom dollar that the MPAA is behind the move away from hard drives in DVD recorders. I think the Polaroid hard drive model that so many people had success with scared the pants off of their lawyers. I think they gave up on controlling them and just banned them. We will probably never know what has gone on behind the scenes unless somebody writes a book 20 years from now.

Dave

Looks like I need to make a few more posts before I can post a URL, but if you google DVD recorders with Hard drives you should get plenty of models to choose from ;)

There used to be several in the US markets, actually a month or so back I was looking at standalone DVD recorders and both Best Buy and Circuit City carried 2 or 3 models in the $250.00 + range.

I hate paying their over inflated prices but that may be a good place to start.

New Egg probably carries a few aswell ?

What the heck happened.

See item 5 in the FAQ: DVD Recorders and the Analog to Digital Transition (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=834668).

Panasonic has reportedly stopped making DVD recorders with HDDs but you can still find a few EH75 models (includes a VCR) at CC (on clearance yet - check price online) and some open box models of the EH75 and more desirable EH55 (200 GB HDD) sometimes surface at J&R. Some used or refurb units are being sold on eBay at ridiculous prices.

I've also noticed in the last year they have become scarce. I can also tell you why. Its a GD X-File fracking conspiricy! Hands down fracking conspiricy! End of fracking story. And the ones you can find? I don't care what company they're from, nothing but bugs and issues! What the frack? They can put a dude on the Moon to take a stroll but they can't make a DVD-HDD Recorder that fracking works right with any reasonable consistancy? You know what that tells me? We never went to the freaking Moon!

Hard drive recorders dried up from the US market because of DVR's and price. A top of the line HDD recorder will run $400.00+ depending on the size of the drive. I am referring to Panasonic, Pioneer, Toshiba and Sony. Because of all the great special features HDD recorders offer you are much better off paying more than buying a cheap model, if you can even find one.

See item 5 in the FAQ: DVD Recorders and the Analog to Digital Transition (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=834668).
It seems as if many of the "newbies" (as well as some of the veterans here) are unaware of this transition to digital issue and can't understand the (not so) "sudden" dissapearance of hard drive based dvd recorders. That's unfortunate, since it's been covered 1000+ times already (I excuse the "newbies")!
Firstly, there were much fewer of these units available overall to begin with because it is a much smaller market than the (much) less expensive non HDD models. Also, it could have simply been poor planning or bad marketing research on the part of these companies as opposed to all these theories about them actually devising plans to eliminate them intentionally. That's possible, but it wouldn't be the first time that a major company (or individual that thinks he/she knows the right marketing approach) simply screwed up royally!

There is alot of speculation and "foreign intrigue". People are making statements as if they know exactly what is going on in the minds of these companies. They don't! No one really knows why the major manufacturers chose not to release these units here in the US. I love this forum and (most of) it's members but all of these comments from all of these people (who think they know why), are creating alot of confusion (especially for the newbies). No one here (unless they actually work in the right capacity) is truly qualified in this specific area. It's pure guesswork and unless someone can produce some authoritative proof as to what plans this industry truly has for these units this year (or next) in the US, perhaps it's time we stopped resorting to all of this theorizing and wait for something factual to come along!

Undoubtedly, I will be accused of contradicting myself, but one thought occured to me as I was typing this:
A theory (my only one and I believe it's unique) - Perhaps the manufacturers and their suits are smarter than we think. Maybe they came to the realization that the average consumer that is considering to buy an HDD unit is willing to pay more than the $300-500.00 (average) that they may have (mistakingly) chosen as a price point for these type of units. What if they intentionally decided not to market these units here in the US this year just to see what people would be willing to pay for them once they are in very limited supply? The FCC mandate of March 1st could simply be an excuse for them to fall back on! Then next year they could, in theory, increase prices accordingly. It's possible that, from now on, an HDD based unit sold in the US will have all the bells and whistles (such as the overseas models) and sell for considerably more than they have been.
Example - the Panny DMR-EH55S on Amazon.com (which seems to now be the only game in town) is now priced at $849.00! Originally (after the other dealer's inventories dried up) it was $799.00. If it wasn't selling, the price would have decreased, not increased! The only units that pop up on e-bay are used, demos, etc. (some highly questionable) and they have sold for as much as $1200.00! Supply and demand. All that the manufacturers need to do is release units on an allocation basis to limited dealers and they will create a whole new strategy by selling a $400.00 unit for $800.00 (or more) next year! They might even have a hand in the sales of these "non-U.S." models that are selling here currently in the $800-1200.00 range, just to see how many are being sold. BTW, not a great idea to buy one of these, since there may be compatibility issues and there is no warranty or support from the manufacturer beyond the 90 day (non manufacturer) warranty period.
This could potentially cause major aggrevation and no one to turn to for support!
I sincerely hope that my theory is wrong! :eek:

Looks like I need to make a few more posts before I can post a URL, but if you google DVD recorders with Hard drives you should get plenty of models to choose from ;)

There used to be several in the US markets, actually a month or so back I was looking at standalone DVD recorders and both Best Buy and Circuit City carried 2 or 3 models in the $250.00 + range.

I hate paying their over inflated prices but that may be a good place to start.

New Egg probably carries a few aswell ?

CASE IN POINT (see my previous post).......
"plenty of models to choose from".......
BUT NONE AVAILABLE!

BTW, there were dvd recorders at CC or BB in the $250.00 range (actually less)......but these did NOT have hard drives. FACT......the least expensive HDD based unit at CC approx. one month ago (Panasonic DMR-EH75V) was selling for approx. $500.00 and BB has had little or nothing in terms of HDD based units (at least in their stores)!

"over inflated prices"?......
$250.00 (supposedly, but not really) for an HDD based recorder is "over inflated"?
......not in the real world!

Hard drive recorders dried up from the US market because of DVR's and price. A top of the line HDD recorder will run $400.00+ depending on the size of the drive. I am referring to Panasonic, Pioneer, Toshiba and Sony. Because of all the great special features HDD recorders offer you are much better off paying more than buying a cheap model, if you can even find one.

CASE IN POINT (see my previous post)......
"Hard drive recorders dried up from the US market because of DVR's and price"......
Maybe, maybe not......but you state this with such authority!
Please reference the (credible) source of this info. or change this statement to reflect it as being your opinion or guess......as opposed to it being factual!

There are quite a few posts such as these......
just thought I'd cite a few examples.

I've also noticed in the last year they have become scarce. I can also tell you why. Its a GD X-File fracking conspiricy! Hands down fracking conspiricy! End of fracking story. And the ones you can find? I don't care what company they're from, nothing but bugs and issues! What the frack? They can put a dude on the Moon to take a stroll but they can't make a DVD-HDD Recorder that fracking works right with any reasonable consistancy? You know what that tells me? We never went to the freaking Moon!

CASE IN POINT(see my previous post)......

......HUH??!!

What the heck happened. There seem to be precious few on the market these days. In my humble opinion, the hard drive option was the best thing to happen since VCR's came out.

Is there some reason that hard drives on not being offered anymore. And no, I don't want to get a Tivo.

Anyhow. If someone could enlighten me as to why few if any DVD players come with a hard drive, I would greatly appreciate it....:)

tom713:

Please check your private messages. Thanks!

slprp1, the facts are in evidence: the machines are no longer available to us. The reasons are, as you say, all speculative. It is human nature to know WHY something that annoys us is happening. Whenever the gas price goes up, people ask, why (this time)? In the absence of an explanation, we speculate to satisfy ourselves that there in fact IS a reason. The press releases have made explanations (DVRs) but we find the argument unsatisfactory, so we speculate on deeper reasons. Human nature, just as I said.

Statements like "Panasonic has reportedly stopped making DVD recorders with HDDs" are almost completely false, and do nothing to help the situation (understanding). Panasonic *IS* making DVD recorders with hard drives, but that are not marketing them in the US. In Europe, Australia, and Canada, such machines have been announced. So they haven't abandoned the market, just the US market. Further speculation abounds: MPAA, Tivo, Digital tuner mandate from FCC, falling profits, unfair Chinese competition, Collusion to drive prices up, whatever. The simple fact is, they are just not being marketed here, for now.

CASE IN POINT (see my previous post)......
"Hard drive recorders dried up from the US market because of DVR's and price"......
Maybe, maybe not......but you state this with such authority!
Please reference the (credible) source of this info. or change this statement to reflect it as being your opinion or guess......as opposed to it being factual!

There are quite a few posts such as these......
just thought I'd cite a few examples.

Well you can probably start with my opinion posted here. Opinion based on reviewing reliable sources.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9703408&&#post9703408

I can dig up the press releases from last summer if required.

This is actually very simple. The top tier DVD recorder manufacturers have ceded the market to DVRs - and have said so in print. When the announcements came out last year about no development for HD DVD recorders for the North American market things started looking like a duck to me. It was stated that the North American market was viewed as a rental market. And it made no sense to attempt to sell into this rental model. So no cigar. Again I can take the time to source out the links. I had thought most everybody had accepted this without the need to go back and reread the announcements.

Now it is not too much of a leap to understand that if they have no interest in producing HD DVD recorders for the North American market why in the world would they continue to develop higher end SD technology? Heck they're not even producing HD DVRs anymore - Sony for example. Is it too much of a leap to connect the dots?

Most of the stuff that has been released in 2008 is nothing more than rebadged 2nd party manufactured units. Much like the DVD player market. For example Toshiba started this with a couple low end models in 2006. And abandoned its XS series in 2007. In 2006 JVC had LG producing a combo unit that was the same one as the Best Buy house brand. Etc...

Okay so we have this scenario:

1. No SD 2007 HDD models from top tier manufacturers. It makes no financial sense to continue these lines (Pioneer financial statement as a source). Going low end appears to be the answer. Evidence of this is the 2007 lineup. Plus the effect of the DVR rental market continues to make it difficult to sell high end models. This segment has come to an end. And what is the evidence for this statement? Just look around.

2. Some claim it is the ATSC mandate that led to the end of HDD models. Couldn't engineer the switch to ATSC quickly enough. I never understood this. If this is the case why no tunner less HDD models in 2007? Well again, this market has been ceded to the DVR rental market.

3. No HD DVD recorders for the North American Market. They could and should be here already. This was a financial decision based on the successful HD rental model already in place. Again I'll find the links and quotes.

4. Using Pioneer's annual report as an example (I'll post the link) the DVD recorder business has been declining - "large drop" is quoted from the financial report. Why continue to kick a dead horse? Is this unique to Pioneer? Maybe. But I bet the non HDD models and the combo units sold much better for all manufacturers. By the way the low end DVD recorder segment (non HDD) is actually growing - I'll post the source for this.

5. The market will be served by off brands. The new Polaroid being an example. Lower end stuff priced below $300. Probably below $200 before it is all over.

Opinion sure. But I believe it is gounded in facts.

So get used to it. Elvis has left the building. It's not the end of the world.

Here's a link to the Pioneer financial reports:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9763994&&#post9763994

Panasonic *IS* making DVD recorders with hard drives, but that are not marketing them in the US. In Europe, Australia, and Canada, such machines have been announced. So they haven't abandoned the market, just the US market. Further speculation abounds: MPAA, Tivo, Digital tuner mandate from FCC, falling profits, unfair Chinese competition, Collusion to drive prices up, whatever. The simple fact is, they are just not being marketed here, for now.

I realize that this is not the proper AVS forum for this, but there is a lot of innovation going on the media streamer world. You can buy a box today that isn't a full HTPC, doesn't require a subscription, and records HD to the HDD.

Tvix is currently selling media streamers that can accept an optional ATSC tuner and will record to HDD in full res HD. These units ship without a HDD -- just add your own drive. No DVD drive though... but more importantly, a network connection. Rip your DVD collection and store it on the hard drive. Record the shows and pull the file off to a PC and convert it to whatever format you want and save it to whatever media you want. It's pretty slick.

I've also noticed in the last year they have become scarce. I can also tell you why. Its a GD X-File fracking conspiricy! Hands down fracking conspiricy! End of fracking story. And the ones you can find? I don't care what company they're from, nothing but bugs and issues! What the frack? They can put a dude on the Moon to take a stroll but they can't make a DVD-HDD Recorder that fracking works right with any reasonable consistancy? You know what that tells me? We never went to the freaking Moon!

I disagree, as will many here. I had a Panasonic E80H for three years and it worked perfectly from day one, although the hard drive did fail and I replaced it myself pretty cheaply. I have had a open box EH75 from CC for over 2 weeks and it has worked perfectly the whole time.

When I said earlier that Panasonic had stopped making HDD recorders I meant to say "for the US" - my apologies for the overstatement. I live in the US and the only market that matters to me is the US market.

I agree with those that said the Japanese companies decided that SD HDD recorders were not profitable in the US mainly because dual tuner HD DVRs became available cheap from cable companies. I think the fact that J6P found them rather difficult to use had a lot to do with it as well, and is why many were returned. Regardless, from the standpoint of profitability I think they were right. I am just glad I got mine before they went away.

.
.
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I am just glad I got mine before they went away.
+1

I disagree, as will many here. I had a Panasonic E80H for three years and it worked perfectly from day one, although the hard drive did fail and I replaced it myself pretty cheaply. I have had a open box EH75 from CC for over 2 weeks and it has worked perfectly the whole time.

When I said earlier that Panasonic had stopped making HDD recorders I meant to say "for the US" - my apologies for the overstatement. I live in the US and the only market that matters to me is the US market.

I agree with those that said the Japanese companies decided that SD HDD recorders were not profitable in the US mainly because dual tuner HD DVRs became available cheap from cable companies. I think the fact that J6P found them rather difficult to use had a lot to do with it as well, and is why many were returned. Regardless, from the standpoint of profitability I think they were right. I am just glad I got mine before they went away.
I've seen other comments to the effect that HDD recorders were dropped because they were not selling well. Well, DUH! Are the manufacturers really that stupid, or do they just think the public is stupid? Of course people haven't been snapping them up because they didn't have ATSC tuners! Who wants to pay $500 for something that will be crippled severely in about two years? Offer us an HDD recorder that promises to have a useful life, and we'll buy it.

I've seen other comments to the effect that HDD recorders were dropped because they were not selling well. Well, DUH! Are the manufacturers really that stupid, or do they just think the public is stupid? Of course people haven't been snapping them up because they didn't have ATSC tuners! Who wants to pay $500 for something that will be crippled severely in about two years? Offer us an HDD recorder that promises to have a useful life, and we'll buy it.

Crippled how? Do you mean because you can't hook up rabbit ears to a DVD recorder for OTA it is somehow crippled? That market segment is so small that the manufactures pay no attention to it.

Remember the ATSC requirement was a government mandate - not innovation. For some reason too many people think it was some sort of technological breakthrough that you can't live without. I haven't hooked up rabbit ears to one of my televisions for almost 25 years. And have to plans to - I'm one of the 88%.

I have recently purchased a "number" of DVD recorders with HDDs that will never become obsolete.

Perhaps the manufacturers are smarter than we think?

I just want to say thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Its hard for me to believe, that there is no market for them. I've owned 2 hard drive models. A Sony HX900 that had superior performance as far as video quality. Frankly, it a had more bells and whistles than I knew what to do with. It was a great machine, but just after the warranty expired, so did the the hard drive.

I then purchased a Panasonic EH50. Its been working perfectly for a year and a half. I love the TV guide option. I can program several recordings with just a few button pushes. The beauty of a hard drive, no fumbling with tapes or disk. I always keep several movies, various programs, and even live musical performances on the hard drive. They are just a few button pushes away to view at my convenience. And of coarse, if there is something you want to save for posterity, you just copy from the hard drive to a disk.

These are just a few reasons why I find hard to believe there is no market for them. There are so many electronic devices out there that only serve a niche market. I mean my god, you can still buy a VCR.

Oh well I'm done ranting. Again thanks all who contributed here...:)

And slprp1, thanks for the PM.

The disappearance of DVD HDD recorders in the US market is a recent occurrence, only about 8 weeks old. When Panasonic sells DVD recorders with VCRs instead of HDDs, it is following a failed business model. Most people who use VCRs have VCRs already. There is almost no demand for a combination DVD recorder/VCR costing $300. These combination units will end up fast at flea markets, VCRs are now a niche product. Someone who buys a 42 inch flat panel TV won't often hook it up to a 240 line resolution VHS tape, assuming the guy's VCR is still working.
Thanks to the backward thinking by the US marketers of Japanese electronics, chain stores like Wal-Mart, Circuit City and Best Buy are taking a big hit in consumer electronic sales lately. Just like exercise bikes, even if people did not use the DVD HDD recorders much, they liked to have them. No one wants VCRs anymore and most people don't want to buy DVD-R discs to time shift recording of television shows on the now available DVD recorders.

Whoever at the FCC put into place the current setup requiring ATSC tuners into DVD HDD recorders should be fired forthwith. Someone at the FCC will be getting a big deferred payoff when their term of office ends, for at least temporarily getting rid of DVD HDD recorders in the U.S. market. Or maybe that person was not at the FCC, maybe it was a consultant from Halliburton/Cheney. Whatever.

Whoever at the FCC put into place the current setup requiring ATSC tuners into DVD HDD recorders should be fired forthwith. Someone at the FCC will be getting a big deferred payoff when their term of office ends, for at least temporarily getting rid of DVD HDD recorders in the U.S. market. Or maybe that person was not at the FCC, maybe it was a consultant from Halliburton/Cheney. Whatever.
How did you find out about this!!!

I thought I was the only one who knew about the Halliburton/Cheney plan to corner the digital DVDR market with their amazing oil-fired DIGA (Digital Idiosyncratic Gamma Accelerator) engine. I've seen it, and it's AMAZING!

Hey, did you also hear about the dental-school dean blaming their student cheating on tests...half the student body...on George Bush!?

Crippled how? Do you mean because you can't hook up rabbit ears to a DVD recorder for OTA it is somehow crippled? That market segment is so small that the manufactures pay no attention to it.

Remember the ATSC requirement was a government mandate - not innovation. For some reason too many people think it was some sort of technological breakthrough that you can't live without. I haven't hooked up rabbit ears to one of my televisions for almost 25 years. And have to plans to - I'm one of the 88%.

I have recently purchased a "number" of DVD recorders with HDDs that will never become obsolete.

Perhaps the manufacturers are smarter than we think?

Ditto......
Who cares if it doesn't have an ATSC tuner?
Besides, the vast majority of consumers have no clue about this and it won't matter in 2009 anyway!!

The disappearance of DVD HDD recorders in the US market is a recent occurrence, only about 8 weeks old. When Panasonic sells DVD recorders with VCRs instead of HDDs, it is following a failed business model. Most people who use VCRs have VCRs already. There is almost no demand for a combination DVD recorder/VCR costing $300. These combination units will end up fast at flea markets, VCRs are now a niche product. Someone who buys a 42 inch flat panel TV won't often hook it up to a 240 line resolution VHS tape, assuming the guy's VCR is still working.
Thanks to the backward thinking by the US marketers of Japanese electronics, chain stores like Wal-Mart, Circuit City and Best Buy are taking a big hit in consumer electronic sales lately. Just like exercise bikes, even if people did not use the DVD HDD recorders much, they liked to have them. No one wants VCRs anymore and most people don't want to buy DVD-R discs to time shift recording of television shows on the now available DVD recorders.

Whoever at the FCC put into place the current setup requiring ATSC tuners into DVD HDD recorders should be fired forthwith. Someone at the FCC will be getting a big deferred payoff when their term of office ends, for at least temporarily getting rid of DVD HDD recorders in the U.S. market. Or maybe that person was not at the FCC, maybe it was a consultant from Halliburton/Cheney. Whatever.

Here we go again......more bad assuptions!......

I.E. - "When Panasonic sells DVD recorders with VCRs instead of HDDs, it is following a failed business model."
WRONG! - For example, The Panasonic DMR-EH75V and ES35VS are (or were, since they've both been discontinued) MAJOR sellers at Circuit City (and elsewhere)! They have always outsold HDD/DVD type units by a big margin! I know this for a fact. I have a friend who is a manager at one of the busiest CC stores in NYC. Guess what, gerrytwo? They couldn't keep them on the shelves! In the recent past, they sold a ton of these units! Even the more expensive -EH75V. Even at an inflated $519.99! There is considerable demand for combo units of this type, since standalone VCR's are (for the most part) unreliable (breaking down left and right) and soon becoming obsolete. More and more people are converting their old VHS tapes to DVD and the ease and simplicity of using a combo makes it far better than using two seperate units for this task. People love these machines and they're one of the most successful items out there!
So, PLEASE (and this applies to everyone), know the facts and stop confusing people! :(

As to the FCC mandate......
It was fine and appropriate that they made ATSC tuners a requirement.
The problem is that it should have been left up to the consumer and not big brother!
They should have required warnings in ads and in the stores (the warnings on the boxes were insufficient) and let us decide instead of pulling the rug out from under us like they did!......
Good decision, bad implementation! :(

I own three hard drive recorders, 2 Panasonic and 1 Pioneer and never, never, never record using the NTSC tuner. I subscribe to DirecTV and record tons of wonderful programming from History, History International and HD movies from HBO, Showtime and HD Net. I just finished Rome 2 and Planet Earth and both came out really good. Why do some members continue to think DVD recorders with NTSC tuners, or no tuners, will be useless when analog transmission ceases?

Even though the electronic industry has decided to treat the USA as a secondary market for DVD recorders you can buy hard drive recorders. There are many websites selling the International versions of Panasonic, Pioneer, Sony and other brands and will continue to sell them because there is a market. In many cases the units include all 3 tuners, NTSC, PAL and SECAM or in some cases no tuner. I just purchased a Pioneer DVD Recorder with an 80GB hard drive. I recorded several programs via input line 1 which receives a feed from my DirecTV H20 receiver. Excellent recorder that includes all the latest features and the price was very reasonable. Cheaper than I paid for my 2 E80's I purchased 4 years ago.

So despite not being able to buy HDD recorders from the BestBuy's and Circuit City's, you can purchase them. I didn't find the HDD recorders overly expensive, they are several hundred dollars depending on the size of the drive. Then again, maybe that is expensive when cable and satellite provide DVR"s for free. In reality the DVR's are not free because you pay a monthly fee for as long as the unit is active.

I own three hard drive recorders, 2 Panasonic and 1 Pioneer and never, never, never record using the NTSC tuner. I subscribe to DirecTV and record tons of wonderful programming from History, History International and HD movies from HBO, Showtime and HD Net. I just finished Rome 2 and Planet Earth and both came out really good. Why do some members continue to think DVD recorders with NTSC tuners, or no tuners, will be useless when analog transmission ceases?

Even though the electronic industry has decided to treat the USA as a secondary market for DVD recorders you can buy hard drive recorders. There are many websites selling the International versions of Panasonic, Pioneer, Sony and other brands and will continue to sell them because there is a market. In many cases the units include all 3 tuners, NTSC, PAL and SECAM or in some cases no tuner. I just purchased a Pioneer DVD Recorder with an 80GB hard drive. I recorded several programs via input line 1 which receives a feed from my DirecTV H20 receiver. Excellent recorder that includes all the latest features and the price was very reasonable. Cheaper than I paid for my 2 E80's I purchased 4 years ago.



So despite not being able to buy HDD recorders from the BestBuy's and Circuit City's, you can purchase them. I didn't find the HDD recorders overly expensive, they are several hundred dollars depending on the size of the drive. Then again, maybe that is expensive when cable and satellite provide DVR"s for free. In reality the DVR's are not free because you pay a monthly fee for as long as the unit is active.

International/Canadian versions=NO US WARRANTY OR SUPPORT!
(trust me and don't mislead yourselves......you WILL need service and support eventually......who will you turn to?)

Here we go again......more bad assuptions!......

I.E. - "When Panasonic sells DVD recorders with VCRs instead of HDDs, it is following a failed business model."
WRONG! - For example, The Panasonic DMR-EH75V and ES35VS are (or were, since they've both been discontinued) MAJOR sellers at Circuit City (and elsewhere)! They have always outsold HDD/DVD type units by a big margin! I know this for a fact. I have a friend who is a manager at one of the busiest CC stores in NYC. Guess what, gerrytwo? They couldn't keep them on the shelves! In the recent past, they sold a ton of these units! Even the more expensive -EH75V. Even at an inflated $519.99! There is considerable demand for combo units of this type, since standalone VCR's are (for the most part) unreliable (breaking down left and right) and soon becoming obsolete.

Please provide the necessary facts to support your opinions. Something more than knowing somebody at a store to support the following:

1. "The Panasonic DMR-EH75V was a major seller at Circuit City (and elsewhere)!" Please provide the sales numbers to support your claims. Something from Panasonic or Circuit City claiming such. Not the opinion of a friend. Were they major sellers in Peoria too? By the way. What is a "major seller". What does that mean. Just the facts please.

2. If they couldn't "keep them on the shelves" why were they one of the last models to be around? Please provide the necessary facts to support this statement. Not an anecdotal opinion of one friend in one store. Facts - like a press release from Circuit City claiming such.

3. Please provide the necessary source data to support the following statement: "There is considerable demand for combo units of this type". Empirical data please. Come up with the necessary facts to prove this opinion.

4. Please provide some facts that separate "VCR's are (for the most part) unreliable (breaking down left and right)" from just your opinion. Are they breaking down left and right on the combo units too?

Just the facts. You appear unreasonably restrictive when you critique the comments of others but very liberal when you offer your own opinions. You write:

"So, PLEASE (and this applies to everyone), know the facts and stop confusing people!"

One can only hope you would follow your own advise..

Ditto......
Who cares if it doesn't have an ATSC tuner?
Besides, the vast majority of consumers have no clue about this and it won't matter in 2009 anyway!!

Agreed. Now this I believe is fact! :)

The disappearance of DVD HDD recorders in the US market is a recent occurrence, only about 8 weeks old. When Panasonic sells DVD recorders with VCRs instead of HDDs, it is following a failed business model. Most people who use VCRs have VCRs already. There is almost no demand for a combination DVD recorder/VCR costing $300. These combination units will end up fast at flea markets, VCRs are now a niche product. Someone who buys a 42 inch flat panel TV won't often hook it up to a 240 line resolution VHS tape, assuming the guy's VCR is still working.
Thanks to the backward thinking by the US marketers of Japanese electronics, chain stores like Wal-Mart, Circuit City and Best Buy are taking a big hit in consumer electronic sales lately. Just like exercise bikes, even if people did not use the DVD HDD recorders much, they liked to have them. No one wants VCRs anymore and most people don't want to buy DVD-R discs to time shift recording of television shows on the now available DVD recorders.

Whoever at the FCC put into place the current setup requiring ATSC tuners into DVD HDD recorders should be fired forthwith. Someone at the FCC will be getting a big deferred payoff when their term of office ends, for at least temporarily getting rid of DVD HDD recorders in the U.S. market. Or maybe that person was not at the FCC, maybe it was a consultant from Halliburton/Cheney. Whatever.

You are obviously new to the forum. Welcome!

There have been threads in the forum asking where have all the HDD models gone going back to last year. Do a search and you'll see the history of people's opinion concerning this. HDD units have been off the shelves for a lot longer than 8 weeks. You could find them but if one store had a few another would have none.

Here's an example from last October:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8712179&&#post8712179

On your second point. Actually it wasn't Haliburton/Cheney. It was Laura Bush. She's a wolf in sheep's clothing. Librarian? - yeh right. She's been after DVD recorders with HDDs for a while now. It just hasn't been reported. Why do you think it looks like Canada may be getting a couple of new Pioneer models? She has no influence there. If it was Haliburton then Canada would be out of luck too. Haliburton is international. But I hear Laura is trying to get the Queen on board. The Queen has no official standing in Canada but Laura still thinks she might be able to "get er done"! :)

Please provide the necessary facts to support your opinions. Something more than knowing somebody at a store to support the following:

1. "The Panasonic DMR-EH75V was a major seller at Circuit City (and elsewhere)!" Please provide the sales numbers to support your claims. Something from Panasonic or Circuit City claiming such. Not the opinion of a friend. Were they major sellers in Peoria too? By the way. What is a "major seller". What does that mean. Just the facts please.

2. If they couldn't "keep them on the shelves" why were they one of the last models to be around? Please provide the necessary facts to support this statement. Not an anecdotal opinion of one friend in one store. Facts - like a press release from Circuit City claiming such.

3. Please provide the necessary source data to support the following statement: "There is considerable demand for combo units of this type". Empirical data please. Come up with the necessary facts to prove this opinion.

4. Please provide some facts that separate "VCR's are (for the most part) unreliable (breaking down left and right)" from just your opinion. Are they breaking down left and right on the combo units too?

Just the facts. You appear unreasonably restrictive when you critique the comments of others but very liberal when you offer your own opinions. You write:

"So, PLEASE (and this applies to everyone), know the facts and stop confusing people!"

One can only hope you would follow your own advise..

These are not simply my opinions, they are based upon reality. If you are going to critique my post, in all fairness, where does "gerrytwo" get his information? -
"When Panasonic sells DVD recorders with VCRs instead of HDDs, it is following a failed business model" That's a very strong statement! Is it factual? Are you doubting and/or questioning him? Do you agree with him......is that why?
Fair is fair.
It has been the habit of many here to make statements in an authoritative tone, as if they really derived their info. from a credible source and not simply their assumptions or imagination! It's frustrating to know that many members and readers depend on this forum for credible advice and they don't get it. I'm just trying to set the record straight on certain issues. If I'm not sure, I don't use guesswork (as to many here do, unfortunately)!

Re: #1:"Sales numbers" are not made public. My friend manages a CC store that is in the top five in the country and if I told you specifically how many of these units were sold I'd be betraying his trust but, believe me, it's alot! I am referencing real sales in a real store. This is not simply his "opinion". In his meetings with managers of other stores (20+) in the area, he has been advised that they are selling major quantities of these units as well. I couldn't tell you about Peoria but if an item is unpopular, it's unpopular. These units are popular and not the product of a "failed business model"!

Re: #2: Basically answered already but...... they were the "last models to be around " because Panasonic (for one) manufactured tons of them......because they sold so well! There was an adequate supply up until very recently. Nothing unusual about this and your argument is unsupported. Manufacturers gauge their production based upon popularity. HDD based recorders (with the exception of the -EH75V) are unpopular with the average consumer (as compared with the low end recorders and combos). They did not dissapear because they are very popular. They dissapeared because the "niche" market buyers realized that there would be no replacements this year and gobbled them up. Again, these statements are not based on an "opinion". They are from someone who is totally "hands on" when it comes to sales/inventory issues.

Re: #3: Not necessary to do so, since my original statement is based on actual sales figures in an actual store that does mega business. Demand is high based upon thousands of them being sold!

Re: #4: To qualify this statement I can tell you that, in my line of work, I have met and spoken in detail to many technicians and others that work in the consumer electronics service industry. It is a statement of fact that VCR's have been unreliable "throwaways" for many years now. When these units cost alot more, many years back, they were far more reliable and not so disposable. I am certain that if we polled the members, they could tell you their many horror stories about VCR's breaking down. It's a no-brainer.
I never said that the VCR sections of these combo units are any better. Just that people like the convenience of fast, easy dubbing. BTW, the video quality tends to be better when dubbing on a combo...... another nice feature. Unfortunately, in all likelyhood, the DVD sections will probably outlast the VCR sections on these units, due to the delicate nature of their poorer quality mechanisms. What makes these combo units so popular (and far from a "failed business model"), is that they are both a VCR replacement and a DVD recorder. For those who are replacing their disposable VCR, it's a better option.

"Just the facts"......exactly!
Unlike many others here, I don't make statements unless they are factual.
I have been critical of others (sorry).
I am not about to embarrass and contradict myself by simply stating my "opinions" as gospel. That's not my style. If I have an opinion, I will preface it by stated as such.
It would be to the overall advantage of this forum if this standard was upheld by all (or at least most) of the contributors here!

slprp1 - Well I guess any time you wish to state an opinion you confirm it as fact because of your mystery man CC manager. :) Life should be so easy.

Here's a couple of facts as it relates to the EH75. First it is the only HDD DVD recorder still being offered for sale by a major retail outlet - Circuit City. And it is being offered at a steep discount to its list price. Profit is being sacrificed in an attempt to move units. That's not a success.

edit - the CC link does not seem to be able to be posted. Go to the CC site. They're being sold for $439.

Why is this? Because it is wildly popular? Or because supply has been (is) significantly greater than projected demand. It is a full 2 1/2 months since the ATSC tuner mandate was put into effect. And there is still a supply that requires a steep discount in order to move the units. I would not call this a success (granted an opinion but I talked to a guy at Sears who said this should be considered a fact :eek: ). Even though all of the DVD recorders with HDDs have been sold out (for at least two months now) you can still get an EH75 from a major retailer at a steep discount. Looks like they've been stuck with a lot of them. All of the EH75s had to have been in the system prior to Feb 28, 07.

Now consider that no new combo 2007 models from Panasonic have HDDs. Could it be that the EH75 sales did not rise to Panasonic's expectations? As noted they're still stuck with inventory that has to be sold at a steep discount. The only HDD model still around. I believe the facts speak for themselves. ;)

late edit here - the guy I talked to at Sears didn't actually work for Sears. He just happened to be walking through. But he said he did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

Please provide the necessary facts to support your opinions. ...
..."So, PLEASE (and this applies to everyone), know the facts and stop confusing people!"...It was Laura Bush. ... It just hasn't been reported.I'm calling foul on this one... :rolleyes:

I'm calling foul on this one... :rolleyes:

:eek: I wish I could tell you that I got a friend in the Secret Service. I can't though (they won't let me) so it's just an opinion.

Busted!

"The disappearance of DVD HDD recorders in the US market" Why can't the manufactors just add a USB port or connections to enable the user to add and access their own hard drives or Mvix MX-760HD ?

No one wants VCRs anymore and most people don't want to buy DVD-R discs to time shift recording of television shows on the now available DVD recorders.You'd be surprised how many people I see picking up DVD/VCR units and putting them in their shopping carts in all the stores near me.

I have a feeling that there's still a lot more people using them than most people realize.

I agree. I believe even the manufacturers were surprised. I chuckled the first time I saw one. But now they seem to be the unit of choice. At least in the US market. It looks like they are selling what people are buying.

I own a Panasonic with Hard Drive and rent a HD-DVR from Time Warner.
If I had a choice I'd never be without either ever again.

I just wish I had picked up a nice Hard drive unit before most disappeared.


BTW... I really have a problem buying ANYTHING with a VCR in it much less for +$400.

I've seen other comments to the effect that HDD recorders were dropped because they were not selling well. Well, DUH! Are the manufacturers really that stupid, or do they just think the public is stupid? Of course people haven't been snapping them up because they didn't have ATSC tuners! Who wants to pay $500 for something that will be crippled severely in about two years? Offer us an HDD recorder that promises to have a useful life, and we'll buy it.

ATSC tuners are only good for OTA broadcasts (and yes I would prefer a ATSC and QAM tuner on my HDD recorder). When analog transmissions end in two years digital converts will be available and subsidized, so current models will be only slightly crippled. And those of us who get TV from cable will probably have analog channels available for a long time to come. But even when that goes you can use one of the other inputs to record and burn (archive) digital channels and even HD broadcasts tuned or recorded on the cable HD DVR/STB. At some point in the future Chinese companies and odd brands may build DVD-HDD recorders with ATSC/QAM tuners but Panasonic was the only one who did it right IMO, and I hate to see them drop the US market for such a product. But as long as they make them for Japan or Europe it would be pretty easy for them to modify them and rejoin the US market. So there is hope.

slprp1 - Well I guess any time you wish to state an opinion you confirm it as fact because of your mystery man CC manager. :) Life should be so easy.

Here's a couple of facts as it relates to the EH75. First it is the only HDD DVD recorder still being offered for sale by a major retail outlet - Circuit City. And it is being offered at a steep discount to its list price. Profit is being sacrificed in an attempt to move units. That's not a success.

edit - the CC link does not seem to be able to be posted. Go to the CC site. They're being sold for $439.

Why is this? Because it is wildly popular? Or because supply has been (is) significantly greater than projected demand. It is a full 2 1/2 months since the ATSC tuner mandate was put into effect. And there is still a supply that requires a steep discount in order to move the units. I would not call this a success (granted an opinion but I talked to a guy at Sears who said this should be considered a fact :eek: ). Even though all of the DVD recorders with HDDs have been sold out (for at least two months now) you can still get an EH75 from a major retailer at a steep discount. Looks like they've been stuck with a lot of them. All of the EH75s had to have been in the system prior to Feb 28, 07.

Now consider that no new combo 2007 models from Panasonic have HDDs. Could it be that the EH75 sales did not rise to Panasonic's expectations? As noted they're still stuck with inventory that has to be sold at a steep discount. The only HDD model still around. I believe the facts speak for themselves. ;)

late edit here - the guy I talked to at Sears didn't actually work for Sears. He just happened to be walking through. But he said he did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

nextoo-
You are in the habit of insinuating that either my statements here have no credibility or that I'm lying!......NOT COOL!

I'm not quite sure what your actual agenda is but you seem to have this relentless need to discredit my statements regarding the subject of the success (lack of......according to you) of DVD/VCR combo units (such as the Panny -EH75V). Even though they are grounded in fact and you have not proven me wrong. Your opinions mean nothing relative to sales figures at one of the top five busiest (and highest grossing) Circuit City stores in the country!

Please allow me the opportunity to cause you some embarrassment in front of these nice people. It's only fair, since you've gone out of your way to do the same, at my expense!......
1) You state that "any time you wish to state an opinion you confirm it as fact because of your mystery man CC manager"......
Until you can prove otherwise (and not simply voice your opinion), I believe that most would agree that the general manager of one of the top five CC stores in the US may know a little bit more than you about what sells well and what doesn't in what is a multi-million dollar store! What's up with this "mystery man" designation? If I revealed his name, would it matter? Not to the average person. Only to someone as inappropriately argumentative as you!
2) You state "here's a couple of facts at it relates to the EH75"......(how convenient, your assumptions magically become "facts")
Firstly, Circuit City bought out all of Panasonic's remaining inventory because their buyers made a smart decision (unlike the idiots at other dealerships that didn't have a clue as to just how much demand there would be for HDD based units)! The only reason why CC has some units still available (their stores are almost sold out and their warehouses are close to depletion) is actually because they had the foresight to invest in a large quantity at an ideal time.
Secondly, you state "steep discount" "profit being sacrificed" and "that's not a success". Sorry to disappoint your "theory" (once again, not fact) but a 12% discount is actually very minimal and far from "steep" The MSRP is $499.00. A selling price of $439.00 is actually, high. Interesting fact, the Panny -ES15 was selling for approx. $150-160.00 at many outlets for it's entire run. That's a 20-25% discount relative to it's $199.00 MSRP. That's a considerably better discount than the "steep" 12% on the -EH75!
Are you about to tell me that the -ES15 was unpopular (you might, since your concept of retail selling leaves alot to be desired)?
So......your "theory" about them having to "sacrifice" inventory is actually baseless!
No, they are not "stuck with inventory that has to be sold at a steep discount"!
Actually, many of our members have gone out to buy them at CC since the other HDD based units disappeared (you should be well aware of this).
Reality...... sales have slowed very recently on the few that are remaining only because the new series was released and many consumers are being blind-sighted by the new models (and lower prices). They will ignore previous ones...... it's just the nature of the beast.
3) You state "could it be that the EH75 sales did not rise to Panasonic's expectations?" and "they're still stuck with inventory".
Reality......Panasonic shipped out their last batch of inventory to CC in February. This was in keeping with the guidelines mandated by the FCC (you should already know this). The reason why you haven't seen these units elsewhere is that all of their remaining inventory went to CC. Sorry to disappoint you again but Panasonic did not get "stuck" with them. According to my (very reliable) source (which, of course you will discredit to suit your agenda) this model was slow to move in the very beginning due to the higher than average price and lack of consumer education (customer- "what's HDD mean?"/ salesperson "duh, has a disc drawer"). However, it consistently sold for $499-519.00 (above MSRP) in CC stores. In most markets, CC was the only game in town for this model on a retail level. Ask yourself, would it sell for so many months at such a high price (no discount at all) if it was dead weight? In accordance with your "theory", it should have been "steeply" discounted! The only reason for it selling at a reduced price on the CC website is because of the increased competion online.
Bear in mind that, originally, I discussed the -EH35 as well. You chose to focus on the -EH75. All I can say about the -EH35 is that it sold out some time back, as it was a cheaper alternative and more mainstream.
BTW, they had trouble keeping these on the shelves also (believe it or not)!
Bottom line......DVD/VCR combos are extremely successful and here to stay! The remark that "gerrytwo" made originally that got me (and you) all wound up, about these units being a "failed business model" was dead wrong and one of the many bad assumptions and theories that (unfortunately) seem to contaminate this otherwise excellent forum!
As to my "mystery manager" friend (guess what......he really does exist and he really knows his stuff!)......regardless of what you may say in rebuttal or what you have said previously......my source is a heck of alot more believable that your personal opinions or assumptions......and I truly believe that, the majority of members/readers would agree that a general manager of one of the busiest, most successful stores in the country might just be a bit more credible than your opinions!

Now for the best part......

Fact...... you have been so insistant and adamant as to how unsuccessful these DVD/VCR combos are (based upon your critiques of my statements).

Fact...... the following is a (more realistic) post by "Rammitinski" on this very subject......
Quote - "You'd be surprised how many people I see picking up DVD/VCR units and putting them in their shopping carts in all the stores near me.
I have a feeling that there's still a lot more people using them than most people realize."

Fact...... you replied directly to this statement with the following......
Quote - "I agree. I believe even the manufacturers were surprised. I chuckled the first time I saw one. But now they seem to be the unit of choice. At least in the US market. It looks like they are selling what people are buying."

Can you spell: C-O-N-T-R-A-D-I-C-T-I-O-N?
How about: C-R-E-D-I-B-I-L-I-T-Y?

The defense rests. ;)

Lots of nice long discussions here. Seems pretty simple to me. If HDD DVDR's were very profitable we would have seen them ready to go again as soon as the ATSC mandate went into effect. This has not happened. We may eventually see them again, but companies are in no hurry because they represent a lesser degree of profit to the companies than other models. Always follow the dollar. If the dollar (big dollar) is there, so will the product be. Just my opinion. I think it is a good one. :D

ATSC tuners are only good for OTA broadcasts (and yes I would prefer a ATSC and QAM tuner on my HDD recorder). When analog transmissions end in two years digital converts will be available and subsidized, so current models will be only slightly crippled. And those of us who get TV from cable will probably have analog channels available for a long time to come. But even when that goes you can use one of the other inputs to record and burn (archive) digital channels and even HD broadcasts tuned or recorded on the cable HD DVR/STB. At some point in the future Chinese companies and odd brands may build DVD-HDD recorders with ATSC/QAM tuners but Panasonic was the only one who did it right IMO, and I hate to see them drop the US market for such a product. But as long as they make them for Japan or Europe it would be pretty easy for them to modify them and rejoin the US market. So there is hope.
Cable companies may continue to offer inferior analog signals for several more years, but millions of us don't have cable and never will. We get superior reception (though fewer channels) OTA for free. Even digital cable channels are usually compressed too much so more channels can be squeezed in.

Integrating an external digital convertor with an HDD recorder will be problematic, and the TV Guide On Screen will surely not work in my Panasonic DMR-EH50S because there's no way to get their new digital guide data in through the EH50's analog inputs. I agree that there is hope as long as HDD recorders are being produced for more enlightened markets. And the Chinese will eventually offer us something if they're allowed to.

Crippled how? Do you mean because you can't hook up rabbit ears to a DVD recorder for OTA it is somehow crippled? That market segment is so small that the manufactures pay no attention to it.

Remember the ATSC requirement was a government mandate - not innovation. For some reason too many people think it was some sort of technological breakthrough that you can't live without. I haven't hooked up rabbit ears to one of my televisions for almost 25 years. And have to plans to - I'm one of the 88%.

I have recently purchased a "number" of DVD recorders with HDDs that will never become obsolete.

Perhaps the manufacturers are smarter than we think?
I've never owned rabbit ears, but I do have a 50-foot tower with an antenna array on top. I get all the major networks and two PBS stations. There are millions of OTA viewers, and there may be more when people realize that they can get better-than-cable reception without paying exorbitant delivery fees. I don't think ATSC is a technological breakthrough, I know it is. It's wonderful.

Even with it's firmware bugs, I love my Panasonic DMR-EH50S. HDD recorders are also a technological breakthrough, and I could never go back to using a VCR. Unfortunately, after the analog shutdown I will have no TV Guide On Screen. That's crippled enough for me to consider it obsolete.

Alright nextoo and slprp1, lets play nice.

I think everyone could agree that these HDD DVD recorders, with or without tuners are still a little bit in their infancy. I realize they've been around a little while now, but some of the technology is still being, shall we say, refined.

I bet in 3 or 4 years, every store will have multiple units with many different features that people want (ATSC, HDD, timeshift, etc.) But until then, we have to take what we can get.

--Nick

Alright nextoo and slprp1, lets play nice.

I think everyone could agree that these HDD DVD recorders, with or without tuners are still a little bit in their infancy. I realize they've been around a little while now, but some of the technology is still being, shall we say, refined.

I bet in 3 or 4 years, every store will have multiple units with many different features that people want (ATSC, HDD, timeshift, etc.) But until then, we have to take what we can get.

--Nick


What do you mean "in their infancy?" Tivo and Replay DVRs have been around for about ten years and even my five year old Replay 3040 still works perfectly. It's program guide and search function is superior to anything else available, IMO, and its "play" controls are worlds better than that on the Comcast 6412, and in many ways superior to those on the Panasonic EH75. The only improvements needed with HDD DVR technology is: 1) larger hard drives (easy); 2) fully capable cable ready digital tuners (ATSC and QAM) with EPG; 3) mulitple tuners (see 2); 4) HDTV capability (other than what cable provides); 5) digital audio inputs; 6) DD 5.1 audio soundtrack recording; 7) HD/BD-DVD-R burners (this will be a long time coming I suspect).
All of that technology is available today and just needs for someone to implement it (granted no. 7 will get lots of opposition from Hollywood).

What do you mean "in their infancy?" Tivo and Replay DVRs have been around for about ten years and even my five year old Replay 3040 still works perfectly. It's program guide and search function is superior to anything else available, IMO, and its "play" controls are worlds better than that on the Comcast 6412, and in many ways superior to those on the Panasonic EH75. The only improvements needed with HDD DVR technology is: 1) larger hard drives (easy); 2) fully capable cable ready digital tuners (ATSC and QAM) with EPG; 3) mulitple tuners (see 2); 4) HDTV capability (other than what cable provides); 5) digital audio inputs; 6) DD 5.1 audio soundtrack recording; 7) HD/BD-DVD-R burners (this will be a long time coming I suspect).
All of that technology is available today and just needs for someone to implement it (granted no. 7 will get lots of opposition from Hollywood).


Well I meant they compared to other technologies, they are fairly new. How long have VCR's been around? How long have DVD's been around? TV has been around for 70 years. VCR's were first developed in the 50's. DVD's released final specs in the 90's. Granted, DVD's had been in development before that, but I'd say 30 or 40 years is a long time in the electronic industry. I'll admit it's not fair to compare years, because the curve is shortening, but still. I'd wager that it took more than 5 (or 10) years to perfect VCRs.

You're obviously right, HDD recorders (TiVos) have been around a while. Does your Comcast has ATSC and QAM? If you're in any manufacturing/production industry, you know that adding any new feature is a major design change.

Now maybe as the discussions here have illustrated, the manufacturers are dragging their feet. I agree with your list. I would love to see all those features in a unit. I think most people here would too.
--Nick

Lots of nice long discussions here. Seems pretty simple to me. If HDD DVDR's were very profitable we would have seen them ready to go again as soon as the ATSC mandate went into effect. This has not happened. We may eventually see them again, but companies are in no hurry because they represent a lesser degree of profit to the companies than other models. Always follow the dollar. If the dollar (big dollar) is there, so will the product be. Just my opinion. I think it is a good one. :DSuccinct and straight to the point. No arguments here, I've been saying the same thing myself. Every press release or reported statement by the japanese makers have said just that -- no market in the US for these things. Eventually people will get it.

There is a fellow in another thread, dr1394, who says he is an LSI engineer. He wrote convincingly that it is nonsense to say these are just last years models with an ATSC tuner dropped in but rather some heavy redesign is needed to cope with the conversion and processing of digital broadcast modes and the design cycle is typically a year. Well if it takes a year to design one of these things, any good business manager would want reasonable assurance of strong sales before he authorized the project. The absence of HDD recorders from the majors speaks volumes. If there eventually is market demand, we'll see these units once again.