and all you had was 1K. That's right, $1,000. And you wanted to put together a 2 channel system. Not vinyl. No sub. Smallish room say 10 x 15. Not used. Maybe refurbed. Tuner wasn't important so integrated's are in. What would the 20K crowd consider?
Assume that neither cables nor s/h are factors. Just equipment.

Oppo DV-970HD $150
NAD C325BEE $300
Magnepan MMGW $300

and I'd want a sub with those maggies to fill in the bottom end.

There, a biamp'ed 2.1 system for movies and cd. :)

How about building speakers (assuming the guy has woodworking skills)? Buy some decent raw drivers, build your own crossovers?

2nd hand kef 104.2 about $500

modded trends 10.1 t-amp from http://www.audiomagus.com/ at $210

leaving under $300 for a cdp

Nahhh...assume the guy has trouble with toothpicks. And I did say not used, although I like the KEF suggestion.

Isn't this the wrong forum for this question? How much experience do you figure they have in this area :p

I have an honest interest in this question. In the house I'm building, I'm going with higher-end multichannel, at least some of which would qualify for this forum. But in the house I'm living in now, I'd rather not spend a significant amount of money, and I can't mount surrounds conveniently anyway. So the idea of a $1K system that a >$20K-er might actually accept and enjoy (under duress, at least) is intriguing.

Fine then. I really would go used then. Vintage JBL 4311s or similar. Bryston pre/power amp. Heck, I just sold a rebuilt Pioneer Sx 980 at 80 watts per side that is a GREAT receiver. Circa 1976..:)

Yes, it's not the forum one would normally post such a question. However, various petty differences aside, I thought it'd be interesting to solicit perspectives from the various members here since many are in financial positions that many aren't. Even race car drivers have the ability to appreciate consumer level cars and comment upon them in their own unique way. And Curt...NO USED!!!

Tedd: wouldn't the MMGW be particularly lacking in bass?

Actually, I'd be interested in used choices, but it's Chu Gai's question, so I guess we should at least make an effort to suggest some new pieces...

This can be an interesting thread. Chu, I don't like your limitations..;) Is there REALLY going to be a HUGE difference in what is recommended? I mean, speakers will all sound different assuming you're spending $300-500 for a pair, but is there really a sound quality difference between one $100-200 CD player vs another? Same with a 'cheapie' (in the eyes here) amp?

In the interest in promoting harmony with our cantankerous Canadian, then please feel free to comment on used also and if possible, make a suggestion regarding new also ;) Many people who have more substantial systems sometimes feel the need to provide a modest one in a spare room. Or two.

I'm just giving you a hard time Chu..:)

I just figure that much better performance can be had by carefully shopping for good used gear than buying new. Recently I'e been on a vintage kick..

But heck, looking at Craigslist, lots of good much more recent stuff can be had for under 1/2 price of new.

Hi

Curt, stop fooling around, the limitations imposed by Chu are interesting and make for a worthwhile exercise. I would go with ttEd with the NAD but not the Magnepan <MMGW, they very much lack in the bass. I am a big Mangepan fan bu they require power to sing... and these specifics models are meant to be used with a subwoofer...
Something like that:

Oppo DV-970HD -----------------------$150
NAD C325BEE --------------------------$300
PSB Image B15-------------------------$400
Nordost Black Knoight X-connect---$100
Paul Spetz Anti-Cable Spkr Cable---$85
Decent Speaker Stands---------------$100


Yeah I know I went over budget , so substract the Speaker cables go with a good Copper wire, say a good High Gauge Power Cord at least 14 Ga but if you could find higher gauge even better... The PSB Monitors play their best when on stands, you must check a good pair ASAP, preferably NOW

and all you had was 1K. That's right, $1,000. And you wanted to put together a 2 channel system. Not vinyl. No sub. Smallish room say 10 x 15. Not used. Maybe refurbed. Tuner wasn't important so integrated's are in. What would the 20K crowd consider?
Assume that neither cables nor s/h are factors. Just equipment.

Chu - speakers or headphones? $1k headphone system would sound pretty good...

- Steve O.

2 JBL LSR6325 pro models=-powered 309 a piece on the net delivered. This could work for preamp
http://www.amazon.com/Denon-DRA-295-AM-Stereo-Receiver/dp/B0002266A4#productDetails

Which leaves a 100 -150 for a cd player from Onkyo, Sony, etc. and a couple of interconnects to connect to the powered speakers.

Fine then, I was only offering other options.

I'd offer Denon as a receiver/amp as well, Paradigm or Energy as a speaker brand as alternate speaker brands.

If I only had $1000 to spend, I would definately buy used speakers. There are some great bargains out there and for me (since I am a Vandersteen addict) a pair of used 2-C's would do very nicely. I would use whatever money left over to buy a very cheap CD player (less than $50) and used Rotel electronics.

and all you had was 1K. That's right, $1,000. .


Symphony tickets and diner for two. :p

I'm looking for a long-term commitment, not a one-night stand :)

Active pro speakers might provide a good option. Another is a decent pro amp with volume pots and some decent internet/chinese speakers. For CD the Oppo

Active pro speakers might provide a good option. Another is a decent pro amp with volume pots and some decent internet/chinese speakers. For CD the OppoYea, I forgot about Oppo-good choice.

Hifi: Oppo or used older modded universal player (Apl/RAM/ModWright/etc), EVS Ultimate Attenuators (no preamp), budget bookshelf speakers (av123 for example) + Gainclone/UcD/Pass Clone customized for speaker demands by Tim Rawson on audiogon.

Headphones: iPod, Headroom micro amp, Etymotic in-ear monitors. Many other fine budget combinations of amp+headphones/earphones at head-fi, of course.

- Steve O.

Well, it'd be unfair if I didn't weigh in.

Onkyo A-9555S Integrated @ $450 (amazon)
OPPO DV-970HD @ $150 (amazon)
PSB Image B25 @ $350 (factory second from DCM)

Should be able to find el-cheapo stands somewhere. If a tad more money and space wasn't an issue, then the PSB Image T45 for $500 isn't too shabby.

1K is hard.
How's
Maggie MMG's
NAD C352 Integrated
OPPO CD

You may need to go used on the Maggies and amp to keep it at a grand.

Michael, I cheated, and left room for a sub in my budget to make up for the lack of bass. A used SW2P would be a nice fit musically.

This is an interesting exercise, but I keep finding myself wanting to go the preowned route to get extra value. (seems everyone else does too... :) ) My previous stereo system would have fit into this exercise, except for being purchased all used. A Jolida 302B, Totem Arros and a Marantz CD63SE with Kimber Hero interconnects and Blue Jeans speaker cables.

I also like the idea of a htpc with a used RME Digi96/8 and a pair of powered Mackies.

I'd probably just get the coolest looking B&O system I could find at that price... :cool:

Seriously, I'd probably go Squeezebox + NAD integrated + PSB Alpha speakers.

I'd also consider
-one of the digital AV receivers from Panasonic or JVC...
-Sonic Impact Super T amp paired with Horne Shoppe single-driver speakers

Channel Islands VPC1 used, http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_1/tale-of-two-pots-aura-channel-2-2002.html PSB B-15, Parasound Model 275 http://www.parasound.com/nc/275.php Any OPPO . You can get discounts on all of the items and meet the budget. Does AVS sell Parasound? The passive pre-amp is ugly but it will elevate the sound quality SUBSTANTIALLY at the price point.

Oppo 970 and use its built in volume control as the pre-amp.

Feed that to a DIYTube Dyanco Stereo-35 clone. Around $500 built, $350 DIY.

Speakers Klipsch RF-52 around $500 on the 'net.

Depending upon DIY or not on the amp this could be pushing the budget a little. Learn to solder to meet the budget.

Alternate less expensive amps would be any of the gainclone or smaller Tripath based units.

Alternate speakers would be the Tekton design 4.5" Fostex units that are around $300 in black.

Shawn

Id have to go with:

Paradigm Atom v.4: $225 (quote from 2 local dealers)
Stands: $90 (quote from 2 local dealers)
NAD 325BEE: $360 (quote from 2 local dealers)
NAD 525BEE CD: $270 (quote from 2 local dealers)
BlueJeansCables Belkin 12ga Spkr (16'): $10 (incl s/h)
BlueJeansCables RCA Interconnect (3m): $35 (incl s/h)

Total Electronics: $990

$10 gas money for picking the stuff up from the dealers.

Total Damage: $1000

Seriously, I'd probably go Squeezebox + NAD integrated + PSB Alpha speakers.

I'm surprised it took 27 posts before somebody suggested the Sqeezebox.

I know I'm over the $1000, but these prices are MSRP - they will street for less:

Squeezebox - $250
Usher S520 - $375
Cambridge Azur 540A v2 - $459
Stands: $100

Total: $1184

I would be very happy with this...

Wow, looks like at least one manufacturer is doing something right: OppoOppoOppoOppoOPPOOPPOOppoOPPOOppo-good choiceAfter the last few threads it's nice to see some agreement.

Sanjay

By The way I have the system I recommended in my office system, The stands are locally made. The Oppo is everything that has been said about it.. just flat-out good; both on video and on Audio.. The NAD 3025BEE is a rare gem: inexpensive and superlative. Thw PSB speakers are their usual good and balanced.

I just bought the Onkyo A9555 this past week. So far I've been very impressed. For the amazon price, it's a tremendous piece of gear. I think it would be quite good for the list of 700.

Just for reference, my two previous amps were 2 vintage Marantz receivers - a 2226 and a 2230. Old, but very, very good sounding. The Onkyo is better.

My sub 1k system running with it:

NHT SB3 - paid 256 new for the pair. Amazing deal.
Used PS Audio DAC - 100 on Audiogon.

I quite like what I've put together.

I'd go with the following:

http://www.brookstone.com/bs_assets/images/shop/p2/512574_p2.jpg

Brookstone cheapo shelf system $150 as pre/tuner/CD/MP3 player with remote. Use the headphone out to feed:

Sonic T amp as a power amp $50 with AC Adapter

that leaves $800 for speakers. Since speakers make the biggest difference, I would spend the majority of the money here. I'd go for towers so there is no additional cost for speakers stands. I'd look at the following companies with towers that fit in the $800 range:

Energy
PSB (Image T45 $799 MSRP)
Paradigm
NHT
Monitor Audio
Totem Arro (if the budget could be stretched by another $100 or so)

From the ID vendors
Rocket RS450 B stock $639
X series mtm tower $449
Orb Classic one $529 (yes it has a sub and yes you need stands or wall mounts)
Axiom M50 v2 $780

I actually use the Brookstone, Sonic T, Totem Arro combo in my living room. The Sonic T was replaced by Parasound Z amp recently.

http://www.norh.com/products/norh4/ceramicwhite1.jpg

http://www.norh.com/products/norh4/index.html

$400 shipped

A conversation piece too.


As for a nice tube amp:

http://www.norh.com/products/se9/index.html

$450 shipped. (or you can buy a nice chinese made tube amp)


And you have $150 left to spend on your source of choice.



From FrantzM:
Oppo DV-970HD -----------------------$150

Voila!

I'm going to cheat and go over budget. You can get an ONIX SP3 and a pair of Reference 1 monitors for $1199 add a Oppo player ($150)and you have the steal of the century IMO.


If I had to stay under $1000 I would go with a pair of Athena AS F2.2 ($300) with the NAD and Oppo player.

Wait and pick up a used pair of Spica TC-60 mini-monitors, $300 - $500 per pair used on Audiogon. Then listen to other folks for your other gear. The Spica's outimaged anything for the buck when they were new and retail and they still do!!!

Steve

Chu Gai mentioned NEW equipment..

Steve

Chu Gai mentioned NEW equipment..

I'm sure Chu luvs enlightened reasoning. Especially when it comes down to how to get a great sounding stereo system for a grand. Note - I didn't recommend any special power cords or cables. HA!

back to post #1 no mention of new or used

there are still a lot of treasures in the used markets awaiting your keen eyes to pick them

I have to agree with Steve B. and cpu8088 on several counts.

I certainly like the Spicas that I have gotten for my family room recently. I can now understand why they have a "cult" following.

There are so many types of 'classic' used gear out there, with tons of spare parts. The most uplifting audio stories (sometimes) are about great stuff being left on the street curb, in thrift stores - and after some touch-up - getting a new life.

There should be a separate thread of $1k DIY high-end, but that might be embarrassing. ;) I recently heard a head-fi'er's DIY modded portable CDP and it was VERY impressive. Quite a humbling experience.

A little hard to go back to listening to my player this morning :o

- Steve O.

I'm going to make a very brash comment, you can all bash away..;)

I've opened several current model speakers recently due to people abusing the heck out of them. I've opened JBLs, Paradigm and Energy speakers, the Energys were installed with a high end 7.1 receiver in a townhouse party room. All consumer stuff, the speakers were 6.5" 2 ways with a double 4 2 way center channel speaker. They've been working fine, save for the one 350 teenager party that the room held.... you can imagine what happened..;) All woofers save for the powered sub ended up blown to bits.

Frankly, with the Energy, Paradigm and the JBL speakers that I've opened, I've been pretty horrified with the quality or lack thereof of the drivers. All were cheapie stamped frame crap, all looked really pretty, the Energys were made in Canada with such a strange mounting pattern that nothing else would fit into that custom hole for the woofer.

Having said that though, I'd say that all of the speakers sounded pretty reasonable and as long as they are not overdriven or clipped by the amplifier, should last fine for years.

From what I've seen, speakers are about the lowest maintenance item and except maybe for foam surrounds that are exposed to sunlight directly (which will deteriorate them so they crumble) speakers are about the lowest maintenance item that you can buy. Abuse them though, and they will be the first thing that self destructs.

and all you had was 1K. That's right, $1,000. And you wanted to put together a 2 channel system. Not vinyl. No sub. Smallish room say 10 x 15. Not used. Maybe refurbed. Tuner wasn't important so integrated's are in. What would the 20K crowd consider?
Assume that neither cables nor s/h are factors. Just equipment.

I would pay the $1000 to a local HiFi store that has expensive gear that I love, over $20K in price, to let me sit in their store and listen to music as much as I wanted to unless a customer needed to demo equipment (I guess I would have to come to some agreement on reasonable time limits for my usage). ;)

Or, I would take the money in British Pounds so that I have around $2000 in US Dollars, then I would start building my new system. ;)

Any idea what he did with the CDP, Steve?

My thinking for not going used is that used is often hard to come by and often is one-of. I was figuring along the lines that the equipment would be generally available.

The Oppo is a piece of crap musically. I don't get it. Noisy and bright. It's one of the worst things I've ever heard. It does do video surprisingly well and should be used exclusively for that with a digital audio out, IMO. Unless you like bright, noisy digital. Of course, the one I heard had $1500 worth of modifications which may have caused it to suck more than stock, but if it sounded better, wow.

I'd probably just get the coolest looking B&O system I could find at that price... :cool:

Seriously, I'd probably go Squeezebox + NAD integrated + PSB Alpha speakers.

That's a good one, though I'd probably spend the extra $100 for the B15s.

I'm also grooving off Sonos running my speakers in the bedroom. It's nice to have sound everywhere and Sonos is *perfect* for running sound throughout the house.

Michael, if you're building and need some ideas for how to wire the house, let me know, I'll give you a hand. Sonos has changed how we do everything and with the cost of copper and installation these days, you can knock a couple $thousand off of the wiring/install pretty easily.

Of course, the one I heard had $1500 worth of modifications which may have caused it to suck more than stock.....Are you making this up? Surely, you are and I am a fool to even post this :)

Nope! That seems to be the new fad - take a $150 DVD player and put $750-$1500 in mods into it. It's very disheartening. Do a google on Oppo and modified. Heck, you should see all the Denons being modified. Suckers born every day. The best sonic mod you can do for an Oppo is plug a digital cable into the back of it :)

John,

I'm interested in more details about your Oppo audition.

Which Oppo was modded, and by who? Was it a custom job, or a standard mod package?

How did you compare the stock vs. modded Oppo?

I have heard modded players, and when done right, they certainly sound better than stock.

Thanks,

- Steve O.

Nope! That seems to be the new fad - take a $150 DVD player and put $750-$1500 in mods into it. It's very disheartening. Do a google on Oppo and modified. Heck, you should see all the Denons being modified. Suckers born every day. The best sonic mod you can do for an Oppo is plug a digital cable into the back of it :)
Wow :eek:

Any idea what he did with the CDP, Steve?

My thinking for not going used is that used is often hard to come by and often is one-of. I was figuring along the lines that the equipment would be generally available.

Chu,

I am going to try to get more details on this. Basically the guy (college student) was on a shoestring budget, had access to high quality testing tools and lab equipment, and hot-rodded what seemed like a standard portable CD player. The major areas modded AFAIK were ckts related to filter and output stage.

It was not perfect - HDCD titles from Reference Recordings, as well as black CD-Rs, gave this 1980s/early 1990s "vintage" CDP fits. I'd like to give my friend some tranports and full-sized CDPs I have and have him go to town on those.

We did some basic level matching of analog outputs between the pCDP and a McCormack UDP-1 through an EMM Labs Switchman. The pCDPs sound was very musical and I really like the way jazz sounded through it. It made my player sound a bit bass heavy (which is the flavor I happen to like)

This happened several times - when a sample track was done playing, I would hit "eject" on the McCormack and forget that we were listening to the pCDP :o

- Steve O.

Which Oppo was modded, and by who? Was it a custom job, or a standard mod package?

I don't know. It had some "super clock" or something in it and a whole bunch of stuff. It looked like hell on the inside. Like poor design meets science experiment

How did you compare the stock vs. modded Oppo?

I didn't, I've never heard one, but it sure wasn't even a $300 NAD CD player.

I think it's foolish to modify any product. Just buy a better non-modified product. I think people thinks it sounds better because they did it, then convince other people that they're geniuses.

Since he had access to all the equipment Steve, did he determine things like FR, output level, output impedance?

Since he had access to all the equipment Steve, did he determine things like FR, output level, output impedance?

Chu,

He developed criterion for measuring quality of sound. If he was measuring noise and distortion, he had to be measuring and comparing those other parameters as well.

I'd rather not speak for him, and I will see if he might be interested in posting his empirical work in the Audio Theory section perhaps.

- Steve O.

I think it's foolish to modify any product. Just buy a better non-modified product. I think people thinks it sounds better because they did it, then convince other people that they're geniuses.

Not always foolish.
I have free access to the top analog and converter chips on the planet.
I can easily modify any of my electronics with quality, knowledge and experience.
I just choose not to sell it.

Not always foolish.
I have free access to the top analog and converter chips on the planet.
I can easily modify any of my electronics with quality, knowledge and experience.
I just choose not to sell it.

If I had the knowledge and experience to modify electronics, I would do it too. But I also agree w/ Allimental in that I would prefer to spend more money on a better stock piece than modify a lower quality one. But damn, if I new what I was doing? That would be fun.

$10 gas money for picking the stuff up from the dealers.


I wish I lived that close to the dealers. :(

I wish I lived that close to the dealers. :(

No you dont :p Sure its nice if you plan on making one purchase, but when you pass the store every day on the way home, there is some sort of magnetism :eek:

No you dont :p Sure its nice if you plan on making one purchase, but when you pass the store every day on the way home, there is some sort of magnetism :eek:

That is the magnetic chip they implanted in you. They track you with that chip and turn on the homing magnet to draw you to the store whenever you are in the vicinity. Most HiFi stores buy this technology from the National High Magnetic Field Laboratory's Pulsed Field Facility at Los Alamos (Los Alamos National Laboratory).

Thought there weren't elves living in your speakers that play music and sing whenever you turn them on?

Hah! That will show you for doubting those half-remembered, foggy abduction hallucinations you have been having...

Who do you think implants those chips when you go to sleep at night? You turn them on, they turn you on...

No you dont :p Sure its nice if you plan on making one purchase, but when you pass the store every day on the way home, there is some sort of magnetism :eek:

Here in Memphis that magnetism occurs between you and the 20 barbecue joints you have to drive by every day. I swear they fan the smoke out into the street.

You can build a $2,500 subwoofer for about $500.00... and outperform it as well. If you really want to have the best for the most, DIY is the way to go. Buy a kit for the speakers. A simple sealed subwoofer using a $400.00 driver and 1 inch thick baltic birch (given a decent size cabinet, something that commercial subwoofers restrict to save money) is unquestionably the way to go. It is not that difficult at all.

You can build a $2,500 subwoofer for about $500.00... and outperform it as well. If you really want to have the best for the most, DIY is the way to go. Buy a kit for the speakers. A simple sealed subwoofer using a $400.00 driver and 1 inch thick baltic birch (given a decent size cabinet, something that commercial subwoofers restrict to save money) is unquestionably the way to go. It is not that difficult at all.

True, but "can" is the key word. You still have to buy the tools, invest the time, before you know it, your 500$ budget could be 3000$ just to get the tools and extra wood because screwed up the first time :)

If you already have a woodworking shop, and have a bit of experience with cabinetry, your suggestion would make the most sense definitely.

How about building speakers (assuming the guy has woodworking skills)? Buy some decent raw drivers, build your own crossovers?

No, really, speaker design is done so much better nowadays by pros with pricey software and test equipment, than by home hobbyists, that the only 'do it yourself' speakers I would build (subwoofers excluded) are kits where all the components have already been matched. And if you think I'm being a pessimist, look up what Dick Pierce has said on the topic, on usenet.

FOr a stereo receiver, consider the Onkyo TX8511 ($300). David Rich reviewed it in the latest Sensible Sound and said it performs as well as AV recevers costing >3X more. (I think it's been discontinued though and replaced by the 8522, which supposedly has improved ergonomics).

THe Oppo970 was reviewed and bench tested (primarily as a DAC, measuring analog output) in the current Stereophile. ITs FR doesn't show it to be 'bright' unless you can hear a tiny bump at 20 kHz (the only part of the audible frequency band that showed nonflat). Atkinson called it too high and small to be audible. FR extension was more extended with DVD-A and SACD playback. The only real criticisms JA had of the Oppo measurements were that its SACD and DVD-A resolution numbers were no better than CD (which of cousre is already plenty sufficient for 99.999% of home audio situations), and that it displayed relatively high jitter. He also complained that the digital out seems to truncate 24 bit to 16 bit. The typical Stereophile loony-tune subjectivist review of the player by Wes Phillips that accompanied the bench test, called the sound 'soft and overripe in the midbass' (and that it worked better as a transport where it 'punched way outside its class' tra la la la la), while Atkinson wondered if the jitter numbers might imply a 'flat, uninvolving' sound.

I've found it pretty involving, myself. I use the HDMI output to feed a Pioneer AVR, with sources including CD, SACD, DVD-V and DVD-A.

No, really, speaker design is done so much better nowadays by pros with pricey software and test equipment, than by home hobbyists, that the only 'do it yourself' speakers I would build (subwoofers excluded) are kits where all the components have already been matched. And if you think I'm being a pessimist, look up what Dick Pierce has said on the topic, on usenet.
.

I don't know if I can agree with this, esp. with low end speakers. Other than increased power handling of some of the smaller speakers and some cone material, I don't know if much has changed really. You can't convince me that advanced computer software for designing speakers has really changed speakers from say 30 years ago. By and large, they are still rectangular boxes (now made of injection molded plastic instead of wood), not time aligned and first or second order crossovers thrown into the box along with a bit of insulation. What's changed really? I'd take the heavier wood enclosure of yesteryear any day over the injection molded stuff.

Now, if you're talking about high end home or commercial speakers, you're in a different realm entirely.

Well Curt, you can't diminish the importance of cone materials but that isn't the only thing that's changed with drivers. Consider how the actual design of the cones...the way they taper...the use of composite materials to control/dissipate unwanted resonances, and a host of other factors. When you couple that with advanced measuring capabilities that if not unknown, were prohibitivley expensive and not fully understood back in the day, as well as a better understanding of crossovers, it's my opinion that there's been signficant advances in this area. Wilson's early offerings were far less amplifier friendly than his current ones due primarily to saner crossover designs. To this we can also add implementation of statistical quality control.
Advanced computer software is a good thing but you still need people skilled in the art and science. When you adjust for inflation, the lower cost speakers smoke the equivalently priced ones of days gone by and I suspect 20 years from now, those will smoke today's offerings.
BTW, I'm not a big fan of injection molded cabinets but there's a couple of companies that have pretty interesting capabilities with designing unusual shapes using polymerics.

Well I am just getting some old ESS speakers refoamed that are 8" 2 way. They had (at the time) the Heil tweeters that were considered (by some) state of the art. I'll compare those box speakers to a couple of sets of much later Paradigm and Energy 6.5" 2 ways, and I'll see what happens.

I do agree with your points, but wonder how much difference it will really make on a pair of $400 speakers..:)

With all due respect, the Heil's weren't all that and the tweeter comments were filled with hype, misrepresentation, and generally ignorance. Cute though ;)

Using inflationdata.com, as of 1/1/07, a $400 speaker would've cost $220 20 years ago and about $115 30 years ago. I'll gladly take the speaker of today over an old pair of Fisher's I bought a little over 30 years ago at the original Crazy Eddie's in Brooklyn.

Well, I ended up lowering my standards even further and picked up an Onkyo CSV720S from Amazon.com. $325 shipped. This will do well enough for now! Heck it even plays SACDs and DVD-Audio discs.

With all due respect, the Heil's weren't all that and the tweeter comments were filled with hype, misrepresentation, and generally ignorance. Cute though ;)

Chu

At the risk of derailing this interesting thread.. I know close to nothing about the ESS Tweeters... do you mean that they were not good ? it seems that at the time (and even now) they were ( and still are) highly regarded...

With all due respect, the Heil's weren't all that and the tweeter comments were filled with hype, misrepresentation, and generally ignorance. Cute though ;)

Ah, but compare that to the hype, misrepresentation and general ignorance of the ads today, and we haven't moved forward at all, have we? :D

It's been a long time since I've heard them. Right now I use Paradigms in my HT and Martin Logans for my 2 channel systems. I can easily a/b these speakers with the late model Energys that just came in for repair. We'll see if the Energys and Paradigms are really a step forward.

I mean unless you're at a shooting range, do Kevlar cones really do much for sound reproduction? That's been hyped like crazy over the last few years...

Just off the top of my head, things hyped in yesteryear:

-Bose direct/reflected sound
-ESS Heil tweeters
-Pioneer Supertweeter
-Infinity tweeter (can't remember what specifically the claim was, but I liked Crime of the Century through them back in the day)
-Quad electrostats
-Klipsch horn loaded cabinets
-Cerwin Vega subwoofers
--neodymium magnets (various manufacturers)
- ferrofluid cooling (increased power handling, but decreased efficiency)

I'm sure there are others that I've forgotten about. Now, out of any of the above or ones I've missed, did any one innovation change the way we listen to speakers? I personally don't think so. The only big change that did change speakers was when permanent magnets were used over electromagnets.

The way they worked was misrepresented Frantz and were especially susceptible to turning into a pile of dust were they to be driven hard. There were also other issues. Drop me a line if you're interested.

Ah, but compare that to the hype, misrepresentation and general ignorance of the ads today, and we haven't moved forward at all, have we?
It's tough for sure. BTW, I'd have restored them too. As for Kevlar. Well it's a buzz word but it's also been used for over 30 years in one form or another. Depending upon how it's made, the driver that is, it can be fabricated such that the bending motion, which occurs when a cone 'breaks up' is transformed into stretching. Hence, you might get a little more extension out of the driver. OTOH, you can forgo the extension and operate in a more controlled region where resonances are severely mitigated. Myself, I don't pay too much attention when a company looks to focus you attention somewhere. After all, magicians do the same.

After all, magicians do the same.

But they make such pretty handkerchiefs appear out of thin air. :D

No, really, speaker design is done so much better nowadays by pros with pricey software and test equipment, than by home hobbyists, that the only 'do it yourself' speakers I would build (subwoofers excluded) are kits where all the components have already been matched. And if you think I'm being a pessimist, look up what Dick Pierce has said on the topic, on usenet.



I only agree partly. I present the example of the speaker tech that worked for my repair shop years ago. This was a guy that knew speakers inside and out, and had all of the common design programs available in 1993-1994. He spent many hours after work designing speakers, working with a couple of decent woodworking guys. One day our receptionist (a 6' blonde that knew nothing about sound) went to him and wanted a pair of speakers for her new apartment. Rather than breaking out the computer, he asked her a few questions:

-big or small cabinets?
-white or black cones?
-which one of these speakers looks the prettiest? and put about 6 different woofers and tweeters out on a table for her to choose from.

I laughed at his approach... until I heard the speakers. They actually sounded pretty good, better than some of his computer generated creations.

I decided then and there that sound is a very subjective thing, and despite how great a spec sheet might look, ultimately good sound is up to the listener and not what a spec sheet or a sales pitch will recommend.



But back to your point and as shown with the above example, there's nothing wrong with the DIY approach to speakers if you have woodworking skills.

Any pics of the blonde?

At the very least, DIY subwoofer is VERY easy. I build cost no object subwoofers: no commercial subs can touch DIY. Commercial manufacturers are limited by size and weight. Surprisingly, they skimp on the driver quality also... Once you build your first sub, you'll never go back to a commercial subwoofer...

Healthnut, got some pix?

:)

If I wasn't studying for a board exam, I'd post some. I don't have any uploaded, unless there is an easy way. You mean the 4 black Hole Subs with the 10 inch ports and the 1.5 inch thick marine grade/no void plywood baffles, etc? They use upgraded versions of the Aura drivers made by Seismic Systems (I don't think Barry Bozeman or his company is around anymore). Nonetheless, the Aura drivers and the TC Sounds drivers are great... I need to build a house or at least buy a new house and add on a theater room with new construction so I can do my dream IB (12) 18 inch drivers of the highest quality...

That being said, Buying a $400.00 driver and some Baltic Birch will get you $2500 commercial sub performance, and likely better in some aspects since you can make the box size large...

I decided then and there that sound is a very subjective thing, and despite how great a spec sheet might look, ultimately good sound is up to the listener and not what a spec sheet or a sales pitch will recommend.

Too true. Graphs look great, and they sound great if you use your eyes to hear the music. Ultimately, the only authority on what is worth the money IMO, is your ears.

I've got Samson Resolve80a Actice studio monitors with nearly perfect graphs in a few areas, but they certainly don't sound that great to me when compared to most high end speakers out there....

Any pics of the blonde?

Somewhere, but not on the computer..:( A perfect body, about 6'0, 6'6 with the poofed out hair. Dumb as a stick, and liked to.... well, never mind!

I dated her sister for a couple of years...her sis was much better looking, but this one got the attention due to the hair and height.

The only problemI have with the DIY guy not being as good as the professionals (and I know that is the opionion of Pierce and Tom Nousaine-although I think somewhat dated) is that some of the professionals WERE DIY guys until they started selling (that and some of the DIY guys have been designing speakers longer than the professionals-and some of the professionals are now DIY). That and the tremendous advances in computing power and modeling programs. Also, I think some speakers try to have a house sound and a house sound is either accurate or it is not (which means either no house sounds are accurate or one house sound is accurate and the rest are not or all house sounds are accurate-which makes for no house sound)-therefore, I agree with Curt's point above (and his employee's design) and (oh, yea, we need more pictures of blondes).

Also, one other point. Pierce makes the point that he designs speakers for clients (as in for sales) and that there are many limitations such as size packaging, cost etc. that a good DIY person can just zip right past in many instances. All commercial speaker are not good and all DIY speakers are not bad. The best commercial speakers are good and the best DIY speakers are also good (IMO).

Also, I think some speakers try to have a house sound and a house sound is either accurate or it is not (which means either no house sounds are accurate or one house sound is accurate and the rest are not or all house sounds are accurate-which makes for no house sound)-therefore, I agree with Curt's point above and (oh, yea, we need more pictures of blondes).

I think one of the main problems is that no speaker is going to measure perfect in any area, let alone all areas. Also, different materials and techniques are used by different companies that lend themselves to certain aberations off of perfect measurements in some areas in order to be closer to an ideal in other areas (or sacrifices in a few or all areas in order to achieve a cohesive balance). All of those things in combination lead to a multitude of unique speaker characteristics and sounds. Add to that the subjective preferences of each individual's ears and brain, that might actually prefer certain types of sound characteristics over a more ideal (technically speaking) measuring speaker and you have a whole lot of room to create brands.

Does this mean people don't intentionally try to create a house sound? No. Though I think many of those house sounds were developed based on a designer's preference for certain sound characteristics (or a public test group's preferences), not to intentionally differentiate themselves from other brands (because of the reasons I listed above, it is rather easy to have a unique sounding speaker). Though some brands might stick to a sound that has been successful in the past.

This is why I put more stock in what I like to hear over looking for perfection in charts. Perfection simply doesn't exist unless you consider the universe perfectly imperfect. ;)

I'd suggest a peak at a JL Gotham - you cannot make a cabinet of its equal DIY, it is literally impossible. The driver is the equal of any other available unit for the DIY market.

Of course it costs 3-4x what a DIY solution would that has equivalent sound so no doubt that DIY holds great value, and in many instances can put together something not available on the commercial market.

I'm surprised more aren't suggesting Pro monitors.

Again, as a reality check, the thread was about a complete system for 1K.

I think one of the main problems is that no speaker is going to measure perfect in any area, let alone all areas. Also, different materials and techniques are used by different companies that lend themselves to certain aberations off of perfect measurements in some areas in order to be closer to an ideal in other areas (or sacrifices in a few or all areas in order to achieve a cohesive balance). All of those things in combination lead to a multitude of unique speaker characteristics and sounds. Add to that the subjective preferences of each individual's ears and brain, that might actually prefer certain types of sound characteristics over a more ideal (technically speaking) measuring speaker and you have a whole lot of room to create brands.

Does this mean people don't intentionally try to create a house sound? No. Though I think many of those house sounds were developed based on a designer's preference for certain sound characteristics (or a public test group's preferences), not to intentionally differentiate themselves from other brands (because of the reasons I listed above, it is rather easy to have a unique sounding speaker). Though some brands might stick to a sound that has been successful in the past.

This is why I put more stock in what I like to hear over looking for perfection in charts. Perfection simply doesn't exist unless you consider the universe perfectly imperfect. ;)
Don't disagree, although I know of one engineer who quit a brand name because he tried to improve upon the house sound but it didn't sound like (fill in the brand) speaker. I also agree that designers do tend to have their own preference. Nope, perfection doesn't exist (except my wife tells me she is and I of course am not :D )

Well, as long as you keep DIY subwoofers separate from DIY speakers, I don't have much of an issue. The DIY subs can way outperform commercial subs, period. Not even close.

Again, as a reality check, the thread was about a complete system for 1K.

Chu

You got a case of derailed thread... There!! :D Talk about getting a dose of your own medicine!! :D

Seriously... I am really interested in discussions concerning DIY subwoofers in a reference-caliber system... and DIY in general in this part of the forum. One can arguably advance that several of the posters in this >20K are after the nec plus Ultra... So their take on the DIY would be welcomed .. I am starting a thread on this right now...

K.I.S.S:

http://www.jieyu-design.com/producthtml/cdplayer.html

:)

Dynaudio BM5 Powered Studio Monitors $999
Creative Black/Green 2GB USB 2.0 Mp3 Player Model Zen V Plus $93
cables $7

Manic1!

I understand the choice of the Dynaudio BM5 Powered Studio Monitors but why the MP3 player? No CD player? just curious...

Manic1!

I understand the choice of the Dynaudio BM5 Powered Studio Monitors but why the MP3 player? No CD player? just curious...
Volume control. With a CD player I would need to get a pre amp or something else to control the volume and that would bring up the cost even more.

Funny, that's a typical example of why there will never be peace in the audio industry. Most would agree that Dynaudio makes great speakers/drivers, but I'll bet most would also say that the MP3 player would negate any quality that Dynaudio brings to the table.

(BTW, most of my listening now is MP3 based, so I'm not critiquing anyone!)

Manic1!

The oppo has a limited Volume COntrol adjustment... I do not use but I know it is in there on the remote. You bring an interesting point though...

As an engineer I am interested int these exercises: Best designs under severe budgets constraints... Bring the best in people... We should try to see what people would come up with the whole 20K for a HT/Music System complete with PJ, screen , speakers, Amp, the whole thing... Sorry let us stick to this one... :o