Hey guys,

I just got my Outlaw LFM-1 plus about a week and a half ago and the room where the sub is has very thick carpet. With the spikes, the bottom of the sub was only about half an inch from the carpet, it had sort of a muffled sound, I think the air from the ports couldn't move freely.

I went to Home Depot and got some 3/4" MDF and ribbed indoor/outdoor carpet and made my own Auralex Gramma type of thing (because I didn't want to wait for an Auralex to arrive). Now it sits up on the carpeted platform and sounds a much more defined, more articulate. This sub destroys my 12'X16'X8' room. I think the sub was a great deal at $499 shipped.

Welcome to the family. Glad to hear you are enjoying your new addition.

I feel like a complete nooby/idiot. Here is a pic of the back of my sound card. Will this work for REW? It says it is a SigmaTel High Def. Audio Codec card.

Hi weverb,

That looks like a Line In (Blue) and Line Out (Green) on your sound card.
Have you tried REW's sound card calibration test by hooking up Line In to Line Out?

Larry

Hi weverb,

That looks like a Line In (Blue) and Line Out (Green) on your sound card.
Have you tried REW's sound card calibration test by hooking up Line In to Line Out?

Larry

Not yet. I need to get a RCA coupler. It looks like I have two stereo RCA to 3.5 y connectors. I just need the coupler, (2) 50' RCA's, and the RCA female to stereo male adapter for the receiver. I was thinking of running to Rat Shack and borrowing what I need. :)

Looks like I had a cord that worked. How does this look?

Looks like I had a cord that worked. How does this look?

weverb, that will work!

Larry

I think I'll enjoy this major improvement for a while before another bout of optimizing sub placement, treating my room, and adding EQ.

Hi ajstan99, thanks for posting your findings and I am glad you are enjoying the EX experience. After you do the above improvements, the "need" to add a second EX will be very, very strong.:D

Larry

Hey guys,

I just got my Outlaw LFM-1 plus about a week and a half ago and the room where the sub is has very thick carpet. With the spikes, the bottom of the sub was only about half an inch from the carpet, it had sort of a muffled sound, I think the air from the ports couldn't move freely.

I went to Home Depot and got some 3/4" MDF and ribbed indoor/outdoor carpet and made my own Auralex Gramma type of thing (because I didn't want to wait for an Auralex to arrive). Now it sits up on the carpeted platform and sounds a much more defined, more articulate. This sub destroys my 12'X16'X8' room. I think the sub was a great deal at $499 shipped.

Hi kx2k6,

Thanks for checking in!:) I had the same problem and lifting the sub has really helped. It really needs at least 2" of clearance to sound as good as it can.

Larry

To all Outlaw Sub Owners,

I finally have the sound I want in my theater room using the Room EQ Wizard (REW) software and the Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro Model #DSP-1124P (BFD) used as a Parametric EQ.

For (1) or (2) subs, this is a very simple and cost effective way to find the ideal location for the sub(s) and the BFD will tame any peaks in your room. The preparation time is the most important and once you get started, the actual measurements are fast and easy.

I have grown from (1) LFM-1+ to (2) LFM-1+ subs and finally, just added (2) LFM-1EX subs to our theater room. Each step has dramatically changed the sound and how we experience the movie or concert.

I have attached some pix from our room.

Larry

and here is the final graph....1/6 octave smoothing.

Larry

:eek:....... Wait a minute.............. :eek:

Absolutely beautiful Larry! I cannot believe neither one of the EX's is in ME mode and you are still getting plenty of volume down to 15 Hz.

Sorry, I had to look again...........:p

You should add an MBM for that little dip at 80Hz. :D

Also, do the over stuffed pillows in the corner help with sound treatment? lol....

Hi ajstan99, thanks for posting your findings and I am glad you are enjoying the EX experience. After you do the above improvements, the "need" to add a second EX will be very, very strong.:D

Larry
You are evil.:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPGiwEW90dc

... and now you need a projector to get a screen big enough to match all that bass!

:eek:....... Wait a minute.............. :eek:

Absolutely beautiful Larry! I cannot believe neither one of the EX's is in ME mode and you are still getting plenty of volume down to 15 Hz.

Hi weverb, I have a very strange room and the low end is very powerful with the one EX in my back right corner. That is the only "true" corner I have available due to the 15' wide entertainment center up front and the entrance door takes care of the back left corner.

The BFD will not let me enter a filter below 20Hz, so I get what I get.:D It is off the charts in ME and w/o an opportunity to tame a peak at 15Hz, I have dialed in MO on all four subs.

You should see the filter I have set for 20Hz.:eek: I have given up some "boom" or "punch" for an amazing clarity and three dimensionality of sound. Of course , when the "boom" bug hits, I have 9 more presets on the BFD available to define or shape my sound field. I want to eventually have a music preset, action movie preset, etc... I mean, 10 presets, each with 24 filters available, to shape the sound to your liking.:)

I am in tweaker's heaven.:D Please let me know if I can help you in any way!

Larry

Sorry, I had to look again...........:p

You should add an MBM for that little dip at 80Hz. :D

Also, do the over stuffed pillows in the corner help with sound treatment? lol....

Oh, you mean my "Bass Traps"....:rolleyes:

I think I need to tell the Wife about that little dip and how the MBM will help.:D

You are evil.:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPGiwEW90dc

... and now you need a projector to get a screen big enough to match all that bass!

ajstan99, Yes, I am Evil.:eek::D:eek:

I am a sound guy first and there is no doubt that a PJ & screen is in my future! I am just waiting for a 1080p PJ to drop in price...I have spent too much $$$$ on speakers & subs!

Larry

Please let me know if I can help you in any way!

I believe I have already taken you up on that offer. I just wish you were more readily available during the day when I can do most of my tweaking.

I am convinced now. As soon as I get the house to myself again, I am switching back to MO. If you recall my last graph, I have a huge spike from 16 to 20Hz.

I just wish you were more readily available during the day when I can do most of my tweaking.

I am usually lurking here through out the day...let me know when you will be at it again and I will keep a close eye on this thread.

Larry

I may get a little time tomorrow. I am going to try the MO versus ME if I can. Kids start school tomorrow.

I did notice something strange with my xo on the EX. No matter if I set it to 30 or 50Hz, my values in those ranges do not change. Meaning, if I drop it to 30Hz., my 40-50Hz range does not lower. It is switched to "active", but I wonder if because I have it set to ME, those values are less like to change. Maybe when I switch to MO, they will be impacted by the xo setting. :confused:

Here is just switching to MO. With the MBM off, the EX pink noised at 63dB! Withe the EX off, the MBM pink noised at 73dB.

Kids start school tomorrow.

:)

Here is just switching to MO. With the MBM off, the EX pink noised at 58dB! Withe the EX off, the MBM pink noised at 73dB.

Hi weverb, this graph looks really good before EQ...I know you lost SPL at 16Hz but the rest looks good and ready to go. When you add a second EX, the 16Hz will increase.

Also, am I not reading your graph right.:confused::confused: It looks like the EX had around 68dB @ 16Hz....

Larry

Larry,

How's this? I pinked noised the EX up to 69dB with the MBM off.

Also, am I not reading your graph right.:confused::confused: It looks like the EX had around 68dB @ 16Hz...

After adding the adjustments for the RS meter, that is what it turned out to be.

I guess I need a review of your current settings:

What is the EX only calibrated to with your RS meter?
What is the MBM only calibrated to?
Combined, what is the SPL?
The rest of your speakers are active, right?

When you play the Hsu Test CD and your MV is -20dB, is that referenced to 75dB SPL reading on the RS meter? Is that the volume you typically listen at?

Larry

Larry,

How's this? I pinked noised the EX up to 69dB with the MBM off.

Every time you work with it, the graph gets better.:)

I guess I need a review of your current settings:

What is the EX only calibrated to with your RS meter?
What is the MBM only calibrated to?
Combined, what is the SPL?
The rest of your speakers are active, right?

When you play the Hsu Test CD and your MV is -20dB, is that referenced to 75dB SPL reading on the RS meter? Is that the volume you typically listen at?

Larry

EX only - pink noised to 69dB
MBM only - pink noised to 73dB
Combined - don't know
All speakers are active

Yes, I pink noise at -20dB volume on the receiver. No, I tend to listening to things anywhere from -20 to -10 and rarely at -5dB (:eek:) on the volume.

After adding the adjustments for the RS meter, that is what it turned out to be.

Are you using the Excel spreadsheet from Hsu to generate your graph?

Oh by the way, the solid cherry desk with a 85lb amp on top is not a lot of fun to move around! :(

Are you using the Excel spreadsheet from Hsu to generate your graph?

No, just one I created using the Shack's cal file for the adjustments at those frequencies.

Oh by the way, the solid cherry desk with a 85lb amp on top is not a lot of fun to move around! :(

:eek::eek:, well, you can count this as a workout, weverb.:D

WAF sucks.:p

Ok, I have seen the Shack's file....

I am not making much sense out of the HSU level setting spreadsheet. When I use the xo of the EX (50Hz), my reading look good. When I use the xo for LFE (80Hz), my readings are way too high!

Now that I am starting to learn REW, when does this whole house curve thing start screwing with these numbers? Looking at your graph tells me your sub readings are way higher than your mains. I understand the whole flat curve response makes the music sound flat. But now what.... :confused:

EX only - pink noised to 69dB
MBM only - pink noised to 73dB
Combined - don't know
All speakers are active

Yes, I pink noise at -20dB volume on the receiver. No, I tend to listening to things anywhere from -20 to -10 and rarely at -5dB (:eek:) on the volume.

Ok, are you using your receiver's internal test tones to calibrate your speakers and subs? or does the Hsu Test CD have pink noise on it?

What I am getting at is to use the 75dB test tone or pink noise to set a SPL reading of 78dB on the EX (using the sub's volume control) and with the same signal set the MBM to read 75dB (using the MBM volume control). Set each one while the other is off and then play the test tone with both on and see what the combined SPL reading is at the LP.

So, as your cycle the test tone through your various speakers, the SPL reading at your LP would be 75dB on all speakers, 78dB on the EX and 75dB on the MBM.

This is where I would start from before using REW. However, your last graph has some serious kick to it and you might like it there.

Larry

Ok, are you using your receiver's internal test tones to calibrate your speakers and subs? or does the Hsu Test CD have pink noise on it?

What I am getting at is to use the 75dB test tone or pink noise to set a SPL reading of 78dB on the EX (using the sub's volume control) and with the same signal set the MBM to read 75dB (using the MBM volume control). Set each one while the other is off and then play the test tone with both on and see what the combined SPL reading is at the LP.

So, as your cycle the test tone through your various speakers, the SPL reading at your LP would be 75dB on all speakers, 78dB on the EX and 75dB on the MBM.

This is where I would start from before using REW. However, your last graph has some serious kick to it and you might like it there.

Larry

I am using the receiver's test tone to balance to 75dB. I cannot get the EX there without (as you can see in the graph) the "kick" getting out of hand!

Doesn't it make more sense to play with the level to make all the frequencies as close to 75dB?

Combined pink noise is 75.5dB.

I am using the receiver's test tone to balance to 75dB. I cannot get the EX there without (as you can see in the graph) the "kick" getting out of hand!

Doesn't it make more sense to play with the level to make all the frequencies as close to 75dB?

I would set the sub's trim level to -5dB in your receiver and then balance to 75 - 78 dB using the sub's volume control.

Also, when I had one sub, I leveled to 82dB on the sub and then lower it to 78dB when I added another LFM-1+ and now I have all four subs leveled to 75dB. When I have all 4 on with the test tone, they produce 81dB, which I was going for when I had one sub!

I like my subs running just a wee bit hot in relation to my main speakers. Start with all speakers and subs at 75dB and see how you like the sound.

Larry

Combined pink noise is 75.5dB.

Perfect!:)

I am not making much sense out of the HSU level setting spreadsheet. When I use the xo of the EX (50Hz), my reading look good. When I use the xo for LFE (80Hz), my readings are way too high!

Now that I am starting to learn REW, when does this whole house curve thing start screwing with these numbers? Looking at your graph tells me your sub readings are way higher than your mains. I understand the whole flat curve response makes the music sound flat. But now what.... :confused:

I am a nob when it comes to your MBM.:):confused::) You have two xo to deal with vs. one for me.

When I used REW, I set the MV to a fairly high level of -14dB or so. I also used a "Hard Knee" house curve to boost the lower end for movies. I don't play any music except for my concert Blu-rays and they sound down right awesome right now. In fact, I have to set another preset in the BFD to tweak some of the current filters to give me more of a boost in the low end :eek::eek: for playing action movies.

I have decided to take a two week break from "graphs" and just listen to all of my favorite demo scenes and let my nervous system settle in without any thought or judgment to what I hear. Golden Ear (aka The Wife) loves this current set-up and believes it is the best.

Larry

BTW, I know you don't like the movie but Cloverfield is getting a special preset in the BFD so I can play other movies with more "thump". I just have to remember to turn it on before I start the movie.:D

So would you agree to leave it alone for now? Does it look ok overall? There is nothing I can do for now to tame it without really loosing the 16Hz response. The "kick" that I had to start with is back.

I no the next big hurdle to try is switching the MBM and EX, but I am affraid I am almost out of time today before the WAF returns.

Looking at the graph one last time, maybe all I need to do is add a second EX and put it into ME?

When I used REW, I set the MV to a fairly high level of -14dB or so. I also used a "Hard Knee" house curve to boost the lower end for movies. I don't play any music except for my concert Blu-rays and they sound down right awesome right now. In fact, I have to set another preset in the BFD to tweak some of the current filters to give me more of a boost in the low end :eek::eek: for playing action movies.

I have decided to take a two week break from "graphs" and just listen to all of my favorite demo scenes and let my nervous system settle in without any thought or judgment to what I hear. Golden Ear (aka The Wife) loves this current set-up and believes it is the best.

Larry

Just rub it in a little! :)

So would you agree to leave it alone for now? Does it look ok overall? There is nothing I can do for now to tame it without really loosing the 16Hz response. The "kick" that I had to start with is back.

I no the next big hurdle to try is switching the MBM and EX, but I am affraid I am almost out of time today before the WAF returns.

Looking at the graph one last time, maybe all I need to do is add a second EX and put it into ME?

Ya, I would leave it alone and your graph looks good. You are at the place of swapping the EX & MBM or adding an EQ. A second EX would rock the house for sure!:D

WAF is starting to come into play for me as well.:(

Larry

Can you explain to me the house curve thing and how to read the graph with your house curve?

Just rub it in a little! :)

:o:oSorry:o:o

FWIW, I tried for a solid day to keep both EX's in the farfield and REW said na baby na with a hugh dip or null at 50Hz. Without a MBM to fill in, I was hosed.

Finally, I just flipped both the LFM-1+s with the EXs and I was in business. I would love to see how your graph changes with swapping the MBM with the EX.

Well, I'm done for the day. Keep up the good work, weverb.:):)

Larry

Can you explain to me the house curve thing and how to read the graph with your house curve?

I will post a graph w/o the house curve and I'll find the article about it.

Larry

Ok, weverb, here is the article about "House Curves":

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/96-house-curve-what-why-you-need-how-do.html

And here is the article about the "Hard Knee" house curve:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/6818-minimal-eq-target-levels-hard-knee-house-curve-long.html

OK, the rew hc.jpg is the "Hard Knee" house curve at a sub output level of 88dB (MV @ -14dB). The rew no hc.jpg shows the target curve from REW at 82dB which is what the 4 subs produce with a 75dB test tone.

Larry

Hi weverb,

Did you see this post over at Hsu?

http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showpost.php?p=33939&postcount=33

Larry

Hi weverb,

Did you see this post over at Hsu?

http://forum.hsuresearch.com/showpost.php?p=33939&postcount=33

Larry

That's basically what I did today. I will double check my settings and measurements tomorrow. During the test tones at different frequencies, i heard a lot of rattles. I am thinking of getting a Subdude and Gramma, so when i switch things around I can add them.

That's basically what I did today. I will double check my settings and measurements tomorrow. During the test tones at different frequencies, i heard a lot of rattles. I am thinking of getting a Subdude and Gramma, so when i switch things around I can add them.

That will help...your room has tile floors, right? Plus, I would like to see how the Subdude & Gramma change your graph and your subjective testing.

That will help...your room has tile floors, right? Plus, I would like to see how the Subdude & Gramma change your graph and your subjective testing.

I have thick carpet. Just when certain frequencies were played, things rattled like crazy. I hate rattles! :mad:

I have thick carpet. Just when certain frequencies were played, things rattled like crazy. I hate rattles! :mad:

Well then, what is the clearance under the EX? The sound changed for the better after I "lifted" the LFMs up to a 2" clearance from the driver to the top of the carpet. Before that it was 1/2" or so.:eek:

A Gramma, Subdude or a DIY Subdude will help the sound. I'm with you on rattles.:mad: I loop the 20Hz test tone and then I seek and destroy all rattles!

Larry

Larry,

Trying to run REW for the first time. Need help on what setting to use.

:confused:

^^

Hi weverb, It looks like you might have the wrong Input Channel selected within REW or you have the Left Input (White) into your RS Meter and Right Input set under REW's Settings/Sound card. Double check the REW Help File under "Getting Started with REW"

If you are using the Right Channel Setting under REW, make sure all of the Right Channel RCAs are being use and the Left Channel RCAs are hooked up to nothing. You don't need a Left Channel Loop Back if you are using the Right Channel as your Input Channel for REW.

Here are My Settings under REW for the Sound Card:

Sample Rate: 48kHz
Output / Input devices are set to my sound card & default in & default out.
Input Channel: Right
I have loaded in my sound card's .cal file

Under the Mic/Meter Tab:

I have checked the "C Weighted SPL Meter"
I have loaded the .cal file for my RS Meter.

I hope this helps!

Larry

Just had the loop back connections backwards! :rolleyes: The first graph is just the subs, the seconds is with the mains on.

Just had the loop back connections backwards! :rolleyes: The first graph is just the subs, the seconds is with the mains on.

Been there, done that.:D

Hey weverb, it looks like the first measurement still has the speakers engaged.:confused: or is it the MBM that extends out towards 200Hz.:confused: At a quick glance, both graphs look very similar.

Also, the boys over at the shack like the vertical axis at 45 to 104 dB, that puts the 75dB target in the middle of the axis. Just click on "Graph Limits" and change the 20Hz to 15Hz and click "Apply Settings".

Does your graph have any smoothing applied? All in all, it looks very good and you can start to play with the filters to see what an EQ will do for you.

Larry

Also weverb, here is the information for a "Hard Knee House Curve":

30 6.0
35 4.4
40 3.1
45 2.0
50 1.1
60 -0.1
70 -0.6
80 -0.5
90 0.0

Just copy & paste into Notepad and save it to your desktop. Then under Settings/House Curve, browse to the file and load it in. Select "Use Logarithmic Interpolation" and this will be your new Target Level.

Larry

Been there, done that.:D

Hey weverb, it looks like the first measurement still has the speakers engaged.:confused: or is it the MBM that extends out towards 200Hz.:confused: At a quick glance, both graphs look very similar.

Also, the boys over at the shack like the vertical axis at 45 to 104 dB, that puts the 75dB target in the middle of the axis. Just click on "Graph Limits" and change the 20Hz to 15Hz and click "Apply Settings".

Does your graph have any smoothing applied? All in all, it looks very good and you can start to play with the filters to see what an EQ will do for you.

Larry

Changed the range on the graphs.

I turned off my powered amp when I first ran the test. Then I turned it on for the second. With the amp off, I thought the speakers would not respond. My receiver has the mains set to small and xo at 80Hz.

No smoothing added.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/12622-rew-noob.html

Changed the range on the graphs.

I turned off my powered amp when I first ran the test. Then I turned it on for the second. With the amp off, I thought the speakers would not respond. My receiver has the mains set to small and xo at 80Hz.

No smoothing added.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/12622-rew-noob.html

brucek knows his stuff at The Shack....

This is what I"m trying to do with REW & BFD:

I take my readings and set my target level midway between the peaks and depressions. Then I use 1/3 or 1/6 octave smoothing. Now I find Peaks from 20 to 80Hz, assign filters, optimize and adjust PK gain.

I take the filters generated by REW and enter them into the BFD and re-run REW. My Wife is laughing at me because I will be back at it tomorrow in the theater room.:)

weverb, where are you going now? Are you going to switch the EX & MBM?

Larry

weverb, where are you going now? Are you going to switch the EX & MBM?

I want to get this REW thing figured out. Comparing the REW graph to the last Excel graph I posted has me more confused. Look at the different readings at 80Hz. Make sure you look at the second REW graph because that also had the mains on (like the Excel sheet). How can they be so different? :confused:

Moving forward, the next test will be to switch places with the MBM and EX. I already scoped out where the EX will go and there seems to be just enough space. It will not be in the same exact spot as the MBM (will not fit). Just the same corner. I am hoping to get some low end boost (like you did) in the corner. I will be following your lead by placing the ports closest to the corner and trying MO first.

Good Morning weverb,

Yes, you have a different reading at 80Hz. Apply 1/3 octave smoothing and see what the reading is on REW. It should change slightly.

Larry

Things look alot better with 1/3 smoothing! Still do not understand why the readings are so different though.

Do you go into your receiver and actually turn your mains off or do you just disconnect them?

Interesting...MBM xo has been set to "out" during all this testing. I switch it to "in" and I get the attached.

Things look alot better with 1/3 smoothing! Still do not understand why the readings are so different though.

Do you go into your receiver and actually turn your mains off or do you just disconnect them?

Sorry, I had to leave the house for The Wife....

I physically disconnect the mains when I run REW.

Interesting...MBM xo has been set to "out" during all this testing. I switch it to "in" and I get the attached.

xo is working now.:D You're quite-a-bit under the curve of I assume 80Hz... I am going to go to the Shack and follow your discussion...

Larry

Ok weverb, I have my IE tabs working between here and The Shack....

Good discussion going on with you and brucek....

Larry

New graphs added to the Shack! Let me know your thoughts. :)

^^^

I'm learning just like you.:D

Next up will be a swap of the EX & MBM and running REW. A BFP will take care of the peak or the swap might help as well. You are doing very well, weverb and you are learning more and more about your set-up.:)

Larry

Even more graphs for you Larry! :eek:

Larry,

Anything new over the weekend? If you get a chance, go take a look at my graphs on the shack and let me know which one you think looks the best.

I may try swapping the MBM and EX tomorrow. I am at least going to play with the MBM's positioning. :D

Well, after more playing around. I switched...

1. LFM-1 EX to max extension
2. MBM is rotated 90 degrees w/port facing lp
3. Main sub phase is 0, and MBM 180
4. Turned up main sub from 4.5 to 5
5. Mains are on
6. Receiver pink noise leveled mains at 75dB and subs at 78.5dB

:o

^^

Hi weverb,

I'm sorry,:o The Wife had me working on some yard projects.:eek::eek:

Your latest graph looks good. I'm heading over to the Shack and see the rest...

Larry

My LFM+ and SMS-1 arrived over the weekend. I didn't get as much time to play as I would have liked but I managed to get them dialed into my system fairly quickly. I have an Auralex Gramma on the way wand I will wait till that comes before doing too much more tweaking.

here are some initial impressions.

The thing is a monster. I only had one place in my room where it would fit, which is a corner so I am feeling very lucky that the position works well. I read endless threads and articles about careful sub placement, and it all went out the window. With a box this big my placement choices were very limited. just something to think about. If it sounded good in the middle of the room I guess I could use the LFM as a coffee table.

I was really worried that I would be able to localize the bass. My mains (Audio Physic Yara's) were chosen primarily because I fell in love with their imaging and sound stage and I went with out a sub for quite a while for fear that i would be distracted by bass coming from elsewhere. The LFM blends beautifully. My wife couldn't beleive the bass wasn't coming from the mains.

It's not quite as musical as I had hoped, but I am going to reserve judgment untill the Gramma arrives and I can decouple the driver from my hardwood floor. So more on that later.

The SMS-1 works well. I have some nasty room nodes that I was able to tame pretty well. I still have some tweaking to do. for a while I was running two crossovers one in my receiver (BK AVR 305) and one in the sms-1 which was giving me a big dip around 80hz (go figure duh) once I turned of the crossover in the SMS things got much better.

I am surprised how much I need to ride the sub balance depending on the source material, so I am really happy to have the Diffrent EQ presets.

Over all I am pretty happy. I will post some pics and more thoughts in a week or so. thanks to all the folks in this thread who's experiences helped me pull the trigger.

Nice write-up Will-san! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

I agree, you really need extra presets to tune your sub for music and home theater. What are you in now, Max Output or Max Ext?

Larry

I am in max extension. My sub volume is plenty loud at three so I can't imagine I would need max output.

I am in max extension. My sub volume is plenty loud at three so I can't imagine I would need max output.

You say that now...


20 bucks says he has another one in 6 months :D

BTW, nice write up Will

You say that now...


20 bucks says he has another one in 6 months :D

How funny! :)

I wouldn't bet against that happening, heck, within 4 months I went from one to four.:eek: :D:eek:

How funny! :)

I wouldn't bet against that happening, heck, within 4 months I went from one to four.:eek: :D:eek:

Thanks to your amazing wife! You have no WAF to complain about. LUCKY MAN! :D

What I am getting at is to use the 75dB test tone or pink noise to set a SPL reading of 78dB on the EX (using the sub's volume control) and with the same signal set the MBM to read 75dB (using the MBM volume control). Set each one while the other is off and then play the test tone with both on and see what the combined SPL reading is at the LP.

So, as your cycle the test tone through your various speakers, the SPL reading at your LP would be 75dB on all speakers, 78dB on the EX and 75dB on the MBM.

Larry,

Here we are today...

1. Mains are at 75dB.
2. MBM is at 77-78dB.
3. EX is at 81dB. :eek:
4. Combined subs is at 79dB.

Moving my target value to 79dB for the subs and REW making the suggested filters.

Larry,

Well I read the house curve section again. I used REW to play a sine wave at 80Hz and had a spl reading of 74dB. I then had REW play a 32Hz sine wave and had a spl reading of 73dB. If I play a 100Hz wave, the reading only goes to 75dB. Am I understanding correctly that I do not need much of a curve?

You say that now...


20 bucks says he has another one in 6 months :D

You guys are funny. I can't imagine what your systems sound like.

You guys are funny. I can't imagine what your systems sound like.

I would buy tickets to hear Larry's! :D

I would buy tickets to hear Larry's! :D

LOL, too true! I think I'd have to buy two tickets - one for the HT experience and another for the airfare :cool:. The only question is which of the tickets would cost me more - if Larry charges in terms of the quality of the HT experience, it might be pretty close!

LOL, too true! I think I'd have to buy two tickets - one for the HT experience and another for the airfare :cool:. The only question is which of the tickets would cost me more - if Larry charges in terms of the quality of the HT experience, it might be pretty close!

:D I would agree.

Thanks to your amazing wife! You have no WAF to complain about. LUCKY MAN! :D

None whatsoever.:) I am very lucky guy and also that she loves movies and realistic sound. It helped that she grew up with three brothers who all continued on to music careers.;)

Larry,

Here we are today...

1. Mains are at 75dB.
2. MBM is at 77-78dB.
3. EX is at 81dB. :eek:
4. Combined subs is at 79dB.

I would like the above #'s as a great place to start before EQ. After you set your filters, you will need to double check all three again with the AVR's test tone.

Larry

I would buy tickets to hear Larry's! :D


LOL, too true! I think I'd have to buy two tickets - one for the HT experience and another for the airfare :cool:. The only question is which of the tickets would cost me more - if Larry charges in terms of the quality of the HT experience, it might be pretty close!

It would be a pleasure to host both of you here for a demo.:cool:

Tickets to a private showing are Free,:):) however, the airline ticket to Cincinnati (the first or second most expansive airport in the country:eek::eek:) would make both of you faint.:o

Larry

Larry,

Well I read the house curve section again. I used REW to play a sine wave at 80Hz and had a spl reading of 74dB. I then had REW play a 32Hz sine wave and had a spl reading of 73dB. If I play a 100Hz wave, the reading only goes to 75dB. Am I understanding correctly that I do not need much of a curve?

weverb, your thread over at The Shack/REW Forum is a great read for anyone who is considering using a BFD & REW to balance their subs. Here is the link:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/12622-rew-noob.html

When you get your BFD up and running, I know you will appreciate some form of a house curve for movies and a different HC for music.

Larry

It would be a pleasure to host both of you here for a demo.:cool:

Tickets to a private showing are Free,:):) however, the airline ticket to Cincinnati (the first or second most expansive airport in the country:eek::eek:) would make both of you faint.:o

Larry

:D I think the worst part for me would be the actual flying part. Can't stand it! :(

weverb, your thread over at The Shack/REW Forum is a great read for anyone who is considering using a BFD & REW to balance their subs. Here is the link:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/12622-rew-noob.html

When you get your BFD up and running, I know you will appreciate some form of a house curve for movies and a different HC for music.

Larry

Thanks Larry. I know a lot of us don't like to sound uneducated in any topic. It was mostly an easy process compared to what I thought it was going to be. I was lucky to have your guidance and great input/teaching/etc. from brucek and Wayne. The next challenge is going to be actually using the 1124P. I am hoping it arrives over the weekend. I am sure I will have more questions for you. :) You should go see the last couple of posts. I have applied a small 5dB house curve to start trying to develop filters. It sounds like the hard knee curve is going to be unavoidable. How has your curve developed since your last posting at the Shack?

:D I think the worst part for me would be the actual flying part. Can't stand it! :(

Funny you mention that - I enjoy flying, but descending is so painful I feel like my head is going to explode! I've tried just about everything you're supposed to do - yawn, gum, etc - and nothing works. Last time I flew somewhere my ears were plugged for about 3 days AFTER we landed :(. So I guess if I were to fly to Larry's for a demo I probably wouldn't be able to hear anything anyway :cool:.

Of course, if he turned it up loud enough at least I'd be able to FEEL it :D.

Of course, if he turned it up loud enough at least I'd be able to FEEL it :D.

I think if he turned it up, it would unplug your ears! :eek:

The next challenge is going to be actually using the 1124P. I am hoping it arrives over the weekend. I am sure I will have more questions for you. :) You should go see the last couple of posts. I have applied a small 5dB house curve to start trying to develop filters. It sounds like the hard knee curve is going to be unavoidable. How has your curve developed since your last posting at the Shack?

Hi weverb, manually entering information is a little tedious at first.:eek: You have 10 different presets and each preset has a L & R channel each with 12 filters. I think preset 4 & 5 are configured to PA filter mode OOTB ( there are 4 filter modes + off). Just focus on the BFD manual regarding PA EQ starting at "Control Elements" on page 10 to "Restoring the Factory Presets" on page 16.

I like your house curve and graph over at the Shack. Since you have generated a slew of graphs, you could enter 10 different scenarios into the BFD and simply change the preset number and sub configuration while you are listening to a music track or movie scene.

I, too, have added to my original graph with a boost to my 50Hz area. I am also going to do what brucek suggested to you about subjective listening to sine waves and noting the perceived difference in volume levels.

Good stuff, weverb.:D You have really helped me understand the REW & BFD even deeper.:)

Larry

I think if he turned it up, it would unplug your ears! :eek:

Funny, my wife has noticed an improvement in my hearing since playing with all of these subs!

Was just playing around this morning.

Red - main sub and MBM
Green - main sub only (xo active 40-45Hz)
Gold - MBM only (xo bypassed)

Look like my receiver is still sending a lfe signal even after it's setting of 80Hz and the main sub does not fall off very quickly! :confused:

The Green graph is the only one that looks right????????????? The xo is on the EX, right?

Your receiver seems to have a bass mgmt problem.

The Green graph is the only one that looks right????????????? The xo is on the EX, right?

Your receiver seems to have a bass mgmt problem.

It looks like the EX and the receiver are having issues. If the EX xo is set to <50Hz, how can I be getting such a large spike on the EX only? The spike is still there even if I set the EX xo to 30Hz. I am not too worried about the EX because the BFD can eliminate it. I am worried about what's going on after 80Hz. I guess if the signal is still there, the BFD can still reduce it. Correct?

I think the spike is caused by your environment and the slow decay at 50Hz in your room. A waterfall graph would show the decay at 50Hz. I am guessing, though.:confused::confused:

If your receiver's xo is set to 80Hz, then the other two graphs should fall just like the green one. It looks like you have your mains on with the other two graphs and I know you don't.:confused::confused:

I am sorry, weverb. I am confused about this.:o:o

Larry

Yea, the graph really does not change when the mains are on. It is not ideal, but I think I will be ok once I get a BFD. Then I can tame all the peaks. I really don't notice the ones above 100Hz. Other than the 50Hz "kick" in the chest, it sounds really good. In addition, I just installed my new speaker cables yesterday and there does seem to be a small improvement. Mostly in the imaging department.

Have you tried to do a full range measurement? That's what I was going to do until I saw the graph results I posted. Not that there is really anything I can do about my highs. I was just curious.

That's funny, I was thinking the same thing.:D I think the RS meter isn't very good after 3kHz, but I was going to do it anyway.

I have a full range test CD (compensated for the RS Meter) in 1/3 octave from 20 to 20kHz that I graphed manually and found sharp dips at 200, 315, 1600 & 6300Hz. Otherwise, Audyssey did a good job of taming peaks out to 8000Hz and then a sharp roll off to 20kHz.

I will be back at it on Sunday!:p:D:)

Larry

Larry,

Sorry I was away for a couple hours. Just picked up a new toy......
DSP 1124P! :D

Check craig'slist and a church 1 hour away was selling one. Just picked it up. Now I need to go buy more cables! :mad:

Your BFD is blessed, weverb.:D:):D

I got home a little while before my wife and just placed the BFD on top of the receiver and closed it up. She came home and we sat on the coach to discuss where to go to dinner. The loving wife that she is did not say anything all the way through dinner until I confessed to picking it up. She then told me she noticed it right away. Can't get much by her. :o Thank goodness it is our 9th wedding anniversary! :)

what do your wives think about you being so giddy about your new toys ?

My Wife is very cool about theater room "Toys".:cool:

what do your wives think about you being so giddy about your new toys ?


I work hard, make good money, provide well for my family, don't drink alot, don't smoke...Music and movies are my primary hobby, and other than the amount of CDs and DVDs I have (and the space they take up), my wife understands my hobby and enjoyment from buying electronic equipment and the like, and appreciates how good our system looks and sounds, without breaking the bank. Pioneer 60" plasma, Axiom speakers, Outlaw EX sub, Yamaha receiver, PS3, HD-DVD player--that's my core system, and I love it.

Amen, jeffrey r, Amen!

my wife... appreciates how good our system looks..., without breaking the bank.

I think jeffery nailed it with these two comments! :D

I think jeffery nailed it with these two comments! :D


Hey, we're in the sub forum, so you forgot, "and sounds"... :)

Well, here are my graphs with my new Behringer DSP1124P. I am currently only using a small 5-6dB house curve. I will have start listening to all the standard demo material to see if I need to make changes. This should be a good example for some to see what the EX and MBM combo can do. I only had to use three filters to get a good curve (no smoothing applied).

Red - BFD off
Green -BFD on

:D

weverb,

Very, very nice work!:)

No smoothing! WOW...nice looking graphs and I'm sure that has to sound very good in your room. Did you ever swap the EX & MBM?

What is the WAF for this toy? Does she like the change in sound?

Larry

weverb,

Very, very nice work!:)

No smoothing! WOW...nice looking graphs and I'm sure that has to sound very good in your room. Did you ever swap the EX & MBM?

What is the WAF for this toy? Does she like the change in sound?

Larry

Larry,

I never did switch the two. I think after looking at the graph that this set-up will work good. I cannot wait to line up all the demo material! :D

The WAF noticed it right away. Her one comment has been, does it have to stay on all the time (because of all the lights). I showed her the REW graphs and she was glad to see that it made a difference.

Well, here are my graphs with my new Behringer DSP1124P. I am currently only using a small 5-6dB house curve. I will have start listening to all the standard demo material to see if I need to make changes. This should be a good example for some to see what the EX and MBM combo can do. I only had to use three filters to get a good curve (no smoothing applied).

Red - BFD off
Green -BFD on

:D

That FR looks great! Looks like all of the hard work is paying off :). My experience with REW and external EQ was also rather tedious but the result was well worth it. Congratulations!

That FR looks great! Looks like all of the hard work is paying off :). My experience with REW and external EQ was also rather tedious but the result was well worth it. Congratulations!

Thanks. I think the hardest part was actually finding a good deal on a used Behringer. The rest was not bad at all. It all looked intimidating, but was rather painless once I took the jump. When I was setting the level of the Behringer, my wife complained that I nearly knocked everything off the shelfs in the opposite room. :D

The WAF noticed it right away. Her one comment has been, does it have to stay on all the time (because of all the lights). I showed her the REW graphs and she was glad to see that it made a difference.

When I first started, I tried to have 24 filters going:eek::eek:. The BFD looked like a Christmas Tree.:D

I am down to 5 filters per channel and I have tucked away the BFD on a shelf in one of my entertainment center's base cabinets with the door closed except when tweaking.:)

Larry

...I have tucked away the BFD on a shelf in one of my entertainment center's base cabinets with the door closed except when tweaking.:)

Have you noticed if your's gets very hot? I have mine sitting on top of my receiver. I am thinking of moving it.

When I first started, I tried to have 24 filters going:eek::eek:. The BFD looked like a Christmas Tree.:D

I am down to 5 filters per channel and I have tucked away the BFD on a shelf in one of my entertainment center's base cabinets with the door closed except when tweaking.:)

Larry

LOL I can totally relate to that! I tried to make every little bump in the graph disappear when I first used REW and my FBQ 2496. Now I'm down to 3 filters - IMO it looks pretty good :)

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg64/lalakersfan34/bothsubswitheq.jpg

When I was setting the level of the Behringer, my wife complained that I nearly knocked everything off the shelfs in the opposite room. :D

That is so true, weverb!

I have decided to go for the "Couch Shaking Bass" and with the kitchen right next to our theater room, my wife wants to install some type of door locks on our kitchen cabinets. She really thinks that the doors are going to open and glasses are going to go flying.:D:D

Have you noticed if your's gets very hot? I have mine sitting on top of my receiver. I am thinking of moving it.

I haven't notice any heat at all...

LOL I can totally relate to that! I tried to make every little bump in the graph disappear when I first used REW and my FBQ 2496. Now I'm down to 3 filters - IMO it looks pretty good :)

WOW....that looks great!!!!

Three filters is very impressive. Do you have any room treatments?

Larry

Have you noticed if your's gets very hot? I have mine sitting on top of my receiver. I am thinking of moving it.
Hi weverb - yes, move it. You shouldn't put anything on top of your receiver.:eek: Typically, that's where the vents are. You may overheat your receiver and cook anything that's on top.

Also, here a question for you and/or Larry. I'm thinking of getting a BFD. Can you cover up the lights with black electrical tape?

Also, here a question for you and/or Larry. I'm thinking of getting a BFD. Can you cover up the lights with black electrical tape?

I don't see why not...

WOW....that looks great!!!!

Three filters is very impressive. Do you have any room treatments?

Larry

Thanks. I have a couple of GIK 244 bass traps, but not enough treatments to cause dramatic improvements. I think they've helped a little, but my room is so small and cluttered that unfortunately I don't really have enough space to put more bass traps. Luckily two bass traps and some tweaking with subwoofer placement and REW have yielded excellent results :).

My BFD does not have as many lights now that I am only using three filters also. I think the factory setting for #10 had all 24 filters on.

My receiver is only used as a pre/pro since I have a Sherbourn external amp located some where else. The receiver still generates some heat for some odd reason.

I am leaning towards Larry's set-up and trying to put it in another section in the cabinet.

I think this will hold me for a while.:D:D

Each individual sub was leveled to 75dB and combined they produced 81.7dB. Master Volume of the Onkyo was set at -20.5dB to produce a Target Level of 81.7dB for the REW Test Sweep.

Max Output Mode
EX Phase set at 180
PLUS Phase set at 0
1/6 smoothing octaves used to generate filters in REW
BFD in Couple Mode (Left EX & + Combo; Right EX & + Combo)
5 filters used for both channels


118866

This really sounds and feels good on action or LFE heavy soundtracks. The jury is still out on my concert Blu-rays. Further tweaking might be required.:p

Larry

Larry,

I would love to see your graph past the 15Hz mark. I wonder how low you are able to get the combo to go. Looks great! :D

What? No hard knee curve?

Here's mine if I apply 1/3 smoothing.

Larry,

I would love to see your graph past the 15Hz mark. I wonder how low you are able to get the combo to go. Looks great! :D

What? No hard knee curve?

Ya, it really is a hard knee curve even though I wasn't trying to use it.:rolleyes::confused::D. Here is the graph with the HK curve and a xo of 90Hz:

118868

With all the subs in MO, under 15Hz is not very impressive. Now with all four in ME, that is another story!:)

Larry

Here's mine if I apply 1/3 smoothing.


Perrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrfect!:D:D:D

I moved the DSP1124P yesterday. Here are some updated pix. I decided to take some without the grills on the mains.

Entertainment Center w/ Triangle Antal Mains
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/6858/ht01uv7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/ht01uv7.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img65/ht01uv7.jpg/1/)

Outlaw LFM-1 EX w/Sherbourn 5/5210A above.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/8214/ht02wx2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/ht02wx2.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img502/ht02wx2.jpg/1/)

HSU MBM-12 in its new rotated orientation
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/3401/ht03sm5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/ht03sm5.jpg/1/w800.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img137/ht03sm5.jpg/1/)

Enjoy.

With all the subs in MO, under 15Hz is not very impressive.

I doubt that. It looks like it is holding its own around the 15Hz mark.

weverb,

Here is a graph from 2Hz to 80Hz with all four at ME and no smoothing:

118869

Yikes!:eek::eek::eek:

Larry

weverb,

Here is a graph from 2Hz to 80Hz with all four at ME and no smoothing:

118869

Yikes!:eek::eek::eek:

Larry

Must be nice to have that problem. Mine just falls on its face after 15Hz. and mine is in ME mode. :(

Hi. My Name is weverb and I suffer from low Hz. envy. :o

I doubt that. It looks like it is holding its own around the 15Hz mark.

You're correct, weverb. I don't know what I was thinking.:o Under MO, it is quite good down to 10Hz...

Larry

Hi. My Name is weverb and I suffer from low Hz. envy. :o

You forgot to raise your right hand.:D:):D

You're correct, weverb. I don't know what I was thinking.:o Under MO, it is quite good down to 10Hz...

Larry

Movies like Transformers and War of the Worlds must be literally a blast to watch! :D

I moved the DSP1124P yesterday. Here are some updated pix. I decided to take some without the grills on the mains.
Enjoy.

Very, very nice!:cool::cool::cool:

Yes, I see we have moved the BFD to a WAF location.:D

BTW, Do fish get thirsty????? I am afraid to take the test and prove my wife right.:D:D

Larry

Movies like Transformers and War of the Worlds must be literally a blast to watch! :D

They really are...I watched Mr. Brooks yesterday and my wife jumped (in the other room) doing the first "gun discharge" scene. I honestly felt like I just got shot in the chest.:eek::eek:

No desire to ever attend another cinema again!

Larry

BTW, Do fish get thirsty????? I am afraid to take the test and prove my wife right.:D:D

Got to love Image Shack and their dumb advertising! :mad:

The new BFD location was a combo of WAF and heat. :rolleyes:

They really are...I watched Mr. Brooks yesterday and my wife jumped (in the other room) doing the first "gun discharge" scene. I honestly felt like I just got shot in the chest.:eek::eek:

No desire to ever attend another cinema again!

Larry

I watched Batman Begins yesterday. I would say overall, the movie was :rolleyes:, but it did have a couple of good bass moments. There seemed to be some very low notes in scenes that you would not expect.

I still love Open Range's gun fight scene. There is one shotgun blast that just makes me bass giddy. :D

weverb,

Here is a graph from 2Hz to 80Hz with all four at ME and no smoothing:

118869

Yikes!:eek::eek::eek:

Larry

Larry,

That graph looks pretty awesome, but I'm wondering if you ran that sweep more than once or twice because it looks like a bit of an anomaly. You *shouldn't* be able to get response anywhere near that deep with LFM-1 EX's or LFM-1 Pluses (I forgot which ones you have :o) in either mode. Perhaps if you plugged all ports to make all four EX's "sealed" and put them in a 200 cubic foot enclosed closet they could have extension down there ;).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=118869

Weverb's experience makes a lot more sense to me. Even with decent room gain, ported subs won't have significant extension more than about ~4-5hz below the tuning point before dropping like a rock. In max extension mode, I believe the EX is tuned in the 16-18hz range, so with good room gain I'd expect it to fall off around 13-15hz. This is exactly what weverb is experiencing. Ported subs have to fall off very steeply below tuning. Again, if you ran the LFM-1's with both ports plugged (I'm not recommending this, BTW) you'd get a much shallower roll off that can be offset with room gain such that your FR doesn't taper off much until you get below 10hz. But to see four ported subs have a huge increase in SPL more than two octaves below tuning tells me something has to be up. In addition, I'm almost positive Outlaw engages a high pass filter around 20hz or so to help protect the woofer from overexcursion at really low frequencies which would furthur attenuate the ultra low end.

I'm not saying any of this in a negative light or as a criticism so I hope you don't take it as such. You're always very fun to talk to and I enjoy our discussions here on AVS :). If that were truly the low end response of your room I'd be blown away, not to mention extremely happy for you :D. Actually, looking at your graph, it looks just about right down to ~13-14hz. It's sloping down appropriately. I just can't figure out that sick turn back up after that!

My guess is that your sound card and/or microphone have some issues way down deep. Did you measure your sound card's response with REW and apply its response curve? Many sound cards aren't very accurate below 10hz, and if this isn't compensated for, they could produce erratic results. I'd be curious to know if you tried using another sound card or calibrated your current sound card (if you didn't already) what the results would be. I'd expect a slightly different graph - either that, or Outlaw's subs are even more impressive than I thought! Hope to hear from you soon.

Stephen

Here's mine if I apply 1/3 smoothing.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=118867&d=1220540250

Wow, looks great weverb! Have you posted a graph without smoothing? BTW, that graph below 20hz looks exactly how I'd expect it to look.

Wow, looks great weverb! Have you posted a graph without smoothing? BTW, that graph below 20hz looks exactly how I'd expect it to look.

I posted it here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14563065#post14563065

Thanks Stephen!

I'm not saying any of this in a negative light or as a criticism so I hope you don't take it as such. You're always very fun to talk to and I enjoy our discussions here on AVS :). If that were truly the low end response of your room I'd be blown away, not to mention extremely happy for you :D. Actually, looking at your graph, it looks just about right down to ~13-14hz. It's sloping down appropriately. I just can't figure out that sick turn back up after that!

My guess is that your sound card and/or microphone have some issues way down deep. Did you measure your sound card's response with REW and apply its response curve? Many sound cards aren't very accurate below 10hz, and if this isn't compensated for, they could produce erratic results. I'd be curious to know if you tried using another sound card or calibrated your current sound card (if you didn't already) what the results would be. I'd expect a slightly different graph - either that, or Outlaw's subs are even more impressive than I thought! Hope to hear from you soon.

Stephen

No problem, Stephen, you are truly one of the good guys around this forum.:D

It was funny to see this graph and I only ran the sweep once. I figured it was my RS meter and/or my sound card (both cal. files are loaded into REW) was giving me this weird shape. Now, I start all of my sweeps from 15Hz.:)

Thanks for your comments and insight.:cool: I appreciate that you take the time to follow this thread!

Larry

I still love Open Range's gun fight scene. There is one shotgun blast that just makes me bass giddy. :D

That is next up on the list!

No problem, Stephen, you are truly one of the good guys around this forum.:D

It was funny to see this graph and I only ran the sweep once. I figured it was my RS meter and/or my sound card (both cal. files are loaded into REW) was giving me this weird shape. Now, I start all of my sweeps from 15Hz.:)

Thanks for your comments and insight.:cool: I appreciate that you take the time to follow this thread!

Larry

Thanks Larry, I can certainly say the same for you :).

Incidentally, this is completely unrelated to REW and Outlaw, but I think my ~900 cubic foot room is going to receive a shake up pretty soon :D

I think I'm going to take out my two PB10-NSD's and put in an Epik Castle.

We need details!

We need details!

I just edited my last post...:)

Thanks Larry, I can certainly say the same for you :).

Incidentally, this is completely unrelated to REW and Outlaw, but I think my ~900 cubic foot room is going to receive a shake up pretty soon :D

I think I'm going to take out my two PB10-NSD's and put in an Epik Castle.

I think you should do something more like the ones in the "kick in the chest" post! :eek:

I think you should do something more like the ones in the "kick in the chest" post! :eek:

Yeah, but unfortunately this college student only has so much $$ :p. And I think a Castle should just about tear my tiny room apart anyway :D.

I think I'm going to take out my two PB10-NSD's and put in an Epik Castle.

Stephen,

I would love to read your thoughts about the difference between two subs vs. one killer sub like the Epik. Your room will rock!:D

BTW, you will be able to fire up the REW & Behringer again.:cool:

Larry

Here is a REW graph as I start to look at the highs....

Any and all comments are welcome!:)

Larry

Hey Larry,

Does this graph have any smoothing? Did you calibrate using the sub level or the speaker cal?

^^

Yes, I used 1/3 octave smoothing per a post from brucek.

I used the sub level calibration in REW, but I made sure my Onkyo 805 MV was set for a 75dB level which produce a sub level calibration of 81.5dB in REW.

Larry

Stephen,

I would love to read your thoughts about the difference between two subs vs. one killer sub like the Epik. Your room will rock!:D

BTW, you will be able to fire up the REW & Behringer again.:cool:

Larry

I hope it will happen soon. My PB10's are on craigslist and I have a potential buyer. We just need to find out a time for him to come and get them. As far as I'm concerned, the day I sell them I'll put in an order for the Castle :D. I'll make sure to keep you posted. I'm anticipating a significant increase in output - especially way down deep below 20hz, as well as a substantial improvement in sound quality.

Great REW graph BTW. I haven't messed too much with graphing my upper frequencies, but I think I'll try it at some point. I'm curious to know what your graph looks like without smoothing. I did run REW to 20khz at one point and the graph looked terrible with huge jumps and dips in very small groups of frequencies, but I think with smoothing it would look decent.

I did run REW to 20khz at one point and the graph looked terrible with huge jumps and dips in very small groups of frequencies, but I think with smoothing it would look decent.

Yes, without smoothing, it's unreadable.:D

One of the REW experts, brucek, suggested in a reply to a post, that 1/3 smoothing is required for a graph of the upper frequencies.

I hope your subs sell soon!

Hello all. After enjoying my HT setup for about 8 months now, I;m n the market for a real sub and am leaning towards and LFM-1+. Outlaw seems to be a bit les popular than a lot of the other brands touted on AVS, but I've never been a flollow the herd type, especially when what appears to be a nice bargain comes into view. The LFM-1+, when you look at the specs and compare pricing, appears to be just that.

Having said all of that, I have a few questions for the Outlaw fans before I finalize my decision and show Outlaw the Visa digits. Ok, here goes:

1. Can you elaborate on why you chose Outlaw, especially over HSU ? Was there a percieved performance advantage or edge in SQ ? Was it simply perceived bang for the buck ? Also, and I don't want to come across as too particular but if you can provide a few more words than just "It kills brand XYZ", it wold be higly appreciated.

2. Is there anyone who has actually heard an Outlaw, side by side, with antoher brand and is able to give a comparison in oberall sound quality ? I am more interested in musicality than absolute output. Yes I do enjoy movies, I have both HD and Blu as well as an Oppo 981, but how it sounds with music is most important to me. Also, why Outlaw and not HSU ?

3, This is more of a general question and I'm wondering what the advanage of a down firing driver is over a front firing design is ? It just seems that there is a lot of wasted energy being pointed at the floor instead of out into the room. Yes I've heard the "bass is omnidirectional" argument but I jsut need a little more than that to be convinced that there is benefit to pointing it at the floor.

4. And lastly (yea I know it's long winded - sorry), what actual improvements in sound are realised by an acoustic isolator such as the Gramma ? I plan to set it up on a carpet with spiked feet and am wondering if its worth the extra expense.

Ok, I know that's a lot to chew on and I'm sure much may have been answered before but I needed to get all of my questions in one place.

Thanks for reading through this if you've gotten this far. Your patience is noteworthy.

Hello all. After enjoying my HT setup for about 8 months now, I;m n the market for a real sub and am leaning towards and LFM-1+. Outlaw seems to be a bit les popular than a lot of the other brands touted on AVS, but I've never been a flollow the herd type, especially when what appears to be a nice bargain comes into view. The LFM-1+, when you look at the specs and compare pricing, appears to be just that.

Having said all of that, I have a few questions for the Outlaw fans before I finalize my decision and show Outlaw the Visa digits. Ok, here goes:

1. Can you elaborate on why you chose Outlaw, especially over HSU ? Was there a percieved performance advantage or edge in SQ ? Was it simply perceived bang for the buck ? Also, and I don't want to come across as too particular but if you can provide a few more words than just "It kills brand XYZ", it wold be higly appreciated.

2. Is there anyone who has actually heard an Outlaw, side by side, with antoher brand and is able to give a comparison in oberall sound quality ? I am more interested in musicality than absolute output. Yes I do enjoy movies, I have both HD and Blu as well as an Oppo 981, but how it sounds with music is most important to me. Also, why Outlaw and not HSU ?

3, This is more of a general question and I'm wondering what the advanage of a down firing driver is over a front firing design is ? It just seems that there is a lot of wasted energy being pointed at the floor instead of out into the room. Yes I've heard the "bass is omnidirectional" argument but I jsut need a little more than that to be convinced that there is benefit to pointing it at the floor.

4. And lastly (yea I know it's long winded - sorry), what actual improvements in sound are realised by an acoustic isolator such as the Gramma ? I plan to set it up on a carpet with spiked feet and am wondering if its worth the extra expense.

Ok, I know that's a lot to chew on and I'm sure much may have been answered before but I needed to get all of my questions in one place.

Thanks for reading through this if you've gotten this far. Your patience is noteworthy.


Good questions, don't know the answers but I too would like to have the experts chime in. :D

1. Can you elaborate on why you chose Outlaw, especially over HSU ? Was there a percieved performance advantage or edge in SQ ? Was it simply perceived bang for the buck ? Also, and I don't want to come across as too particular but if you can provide a few more words than just "It kills brand XYZ", it wold be higly appreciated.

I went with the LFM-1 EX because of price, size, and a few good reviews. Basically bang for the buck. In addition, it was a normally stocked item unlike the MFW was in the beginning.

2. Is there anyone who has actually heard an Outlaw, side by side, with antoher brand and is able to give a comparison in oberall sound quality ? I am more interested in musicality than absolute output. Yes I do enjoy movies, I have both HD and Blu as well as an Oppo 981, but how it sounds with music is most important to me. Also, why Outlaw and not HSU ?

I have not heard any of the other popular subs, but I do listen to a lot of music. To me the Outlaw sub does a great job with music. I believe it actually does a better job with music than movies. They seem to be not a strong as other subs down low, but that is not always needed for music. Then again, I have added a MBM-12 for the mid-bass and have set-up the Outlat to handle the 16-50Hz areas.

3, This is more of a general question and I'm wondering what the advanage of a down firing driver is over a front firing design is ? It just seems that there is a lot of wasted energy being pointed at the floor instead of out into the room. Yes I've heard the "bass is omnidirectional" argument but I jsut need a little more than that to be convinced that there is benefit to pointing it at the floor.

I am not sure about the driver, but the direction of the ports can have an audible impact. Down firing ports are less likly to be heard making any port chuffing (sp ?) sounds. This is one reason I went with Outlaw over HSU. In addition, down firing ports give you more placement options. Usually rear or side firing ports need to fire into a surface (wall, couch, etc.). The HSU rear ports and side firing driver would not work with my limited placement options (see previous pix post).

4. And lastly (yea I know it's long winded - sorry), what actual improvements in sound are realised by an acoustic isolator such as the Gramma ? I plan to set it up on a carpet with spiked feet and am wondering if its worth the extra expense.

A Gramma will help if you have a wood subfloor. This post is a good example of one not being needed:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14460402#post14460402

I have a concrete slab and have not pursued one. Although they are pretty cheap to try out and see if it would help.

Now for my disclaimer: I am NOT a sub expert and have only been researching and playing with my current sub for about a year. These are just my interpreted results. :)

weverb, thanks for getting back. This is good information and I respect your knowledge as I beleive 1st hand experience is the best teacher and obviously you have more than I in this area.

So, your bang for the buck criteria sounds very similar to mine as far as reasons for leaning towards Outlaw. And since it sounds like you are satisfied, then the decision was obviously sound. (no pun). I need to digest the rest of your response a bit before I comment further, but time does not allow at the moment. Thanks again for getting back.

weverb, thanks for getting back. This is good information and I respect your knowledge as I beleive 1st hand experience is the best teacher and obviously you have more than I in this area.

Other great sources for information are Larry (lagsbach), audiofreak38, lalakersfan, jeffery r, etc. We are all here to help corrupt....I mean help in any way we can. :p

One other thing, you may want to wait and get a b-stock EX for $549 shipped! Larry can probably elaborate more on the difference between the two. He has both (2 each to be exact). It is only $50 more! :)

I spoke with Outlaw today about B stock and the individual on the phone said that for a "pristine" EX, it would be full price ($599) with free shipping. A new plus is $499 and $65 shipping which is within what 35 bucks. Decisions decisions and YES, this place does corrupt ones will to resist temptation.

I'm going to sleep on this and thanks to your response, I have a few things to consider.

I'm not sure if I should thank you or not !!! LOL !!!!

I'm not sure if I should thank you or not !!! LOL !!!!

:D That's what we are here for! :D

OK, YA GOT ME !!!!

I pulled the trigger just now and ordered an LFM-1 Plus. The price was right and the specs look good. I woke up this morning and it dawned on me that there is about a 99% 'hit rate" whenever I get this interested in something. I figured, what the heck, you KNOW you're going to end up buying so why agonise ? JUST DO IT and so it has been done.

Now for the wait......I think I'll go play golf everyday till it get's here.

Now for the wait......I think I'll go play golf everyday till it get's here.

I think you will be surprised at how quick they ship. I think my EX made the trek from Cali to Florida in like 4 days. Thanks to FedEx! :D

Now for my disclaimer: I am NOT a sub expert and have only been researching and playing with my current sub for about a year. These are just my interpreted results. :)

Hi weverb,

I have read your posts offering your experiences on the LFM sub and I want to say how well thought out and insightful your answers were. I couldn't have said it any better!:cool:

Now, weverb, you're most certainly are an expert with your set-up and with the amount of work you are doing with your room, subs in general.
For my money, your thoughts are always welcome here in this thread!

Larry

...your thoughts are always welcome here in this thread!

Thanks for the kind words Larry. It seems that you and I are the only ones keeping this thread alive sometimes. I would love to hear your thoughts on the differences between the Plus and the EX. I think it would be good info for those on the fence between the two.

OK, YA GOT ME !!!!

I pulled the trigger just now and ordered an LFM-1 Plus. The price was right and the specs look good. I woke up this morning and it dawned on me that there is about a 99% 'hit rate" whenever I get this interested in something. I figured, what the heck, you KNOW you're going to end up buying so why agonise ? JUST DO IT and so it has been done.

Now for the wait......I think I'll go play golf everyday till it get's here.

Congrats--you should love it. My EX has been kick-ass since I got it a couple of months ago. I love watching my wife's reaction when our family room shakes and rattles when watching movies. It has been a significant improvement in sound quality over my old reliable SVS PB1-ISD, so I am very pleased.

Don't forget, it will likely come stock in maximum extension mode (one port plugged), but try that out along with maximum output mode to see which one you prefer. There's a switch on the back you need to have set correctly also. Maximum extension will help you hit those really low notes while losing a bit of output. Maximum output will lose some of the really low bass, but you'll get more volume from the more common mid and upper bass. I currently have mine set to max output, but maximum extension was cool also.

Enjoy.

OK, YA GOT ME !!!!

I pulled the trigger just now and ordered an LFM-1 Plus. The price was right and the specs look good. I woke up this morning and it dawned on me that there is about a 99% 'hit rate" whenever I get this interested in something. I figured, what the heck, you KNOW you're going to end up buying so why agonise ? JUST DO IT and so it has been done.

Now for the wait......I think I'll go play golf everyday till it get's here.

Hi PannyMann,

Congrats on your purchase! Please check back with any questions or comments. There are lots of owners here that are more than willing to help you.:cool:

Golf was once my only hobby, now that I have found the thrill of Home Theater, I play golf three times a year vs. three times a week.:D:D

Larry

Thanks for the kind words Larry. It seems that you and I are the only ones keeping this thread alive sometimes. I would love to hear your thoughts on the differences between the Plus and the EX. I think it would be good info for those on the fence between the two.

Yeah, we should have the thread re-named to:

"Official Outlaw Owners thread: presented by weverb & Larry":)

A very good idea on writing about the differences between the Plus & EX. I'll work on that this weekend.

Larry

Hi PannyMann,

Congrats on your purchase! Please check back with any questions or comments. There are lots of owners here that are more than willing to help you.:cool:

Golf was once my only hobby, now that I have found the thrill of Home Theater, I play golf three times a year vs. three times a week.:D:D

Larry

That sounds very familiar. I used to play golf all the time but it's now been relegated to once every two or three months. Between school and work it's hard to find enough consecutive daylight hours to play golf anyway, but with this HT obsession vying for my free time, golf has lost out big time in the last year or so. The sad part is I really don't play any worse now than I did before...

The sad part is I really don't play any worse now than I did before...

My golf buddies refuse to believe that I only play three times a year as I shoot lower scores than when I played more often. I guess I forget all the bad stuff and it really irritates them when I win.:)

Home Theater has helped me more in golf than any golf lesson ever did.:D

My golf buddies refuse to believe that I only play three times a year as I shoot lower scores than when I played more often. I guess I forget all the bad stuff and it really irritates them when I win.:)

Home Theater has helped me more in golf than any golf lesson ever did.:D

Same here! All of those goofy swing flaws tend to disappear and I just end up back to basics. The only thing that suffers sometimes is the short game. But last week I was 4 for 4 in sand saves, so even my short game seemed to improve last time after not playing for a while! :D

BTW, what's your index, out of curiosity?

When I played and practiced all the time: USGA 9.6 playing on a par 72, 136 slope golf course. In other words, the low-mid 80's consistently with one or two rounds in the 70's per year.

Now, my highest score in the last two years (6 rounds) of HT mania: 78 with a low of 74! The lowest score of my life was a 70.

When I played and practiced all the time: USGA 9.6 playing on a par 72, 136 slope golf course. In other words, the low-mid 80's consistently with one or two rounds in the 70's per year.

Now, my highest score in the last two years (6 rounds) of HT mania: 78 with a low of 74! The lowest score of my life was a 70.

Sounds like you're a very decent player - especially now that you don't play anymore :p. You have me beat in terms of lowest ever, though on average we seem pretty even. I'm a 9.x right now (not sure exactly) and I'm a high seventies to mid eighties player as well. My lowest round was I think 74 or 75 though. I figure I'm good enough not to make a fool of myself in front of other people (usually), but I know I'm not good enough to be really impressive.

I think it helps to play less often because I don't take things so darn seriously. It's not that I don't care now, but in the high school days I was so tough on myself that sometimes it ended up not even being fun. Now I still try, but it's easier to shrug off the mistakes and just enjoy myself (part of this could also be a general increase in emotional maturity over the last few years).

Yeah, we should have the thread re-named to:

"Official Outlaw Owners thread: presented by weverb & Larry"

Now that's funny! :D

Congrats--you should love it. My EX has been kick-ass since I got it a couple of months ago. I love watching my wife's reaction when our family room shakes and rattles when watching movies. It has been a significant improvement in sound quality over my old reliable SVS PB1-ISD, so I am very pleased.

Don't forget, it will likely come stock in maximum extension mode (one port plugged), but try that out along with maximum output mode to see which one you prefer. There's a switch on the back you need to have set correctly also. Maximum extension will help you hit those really low notes while losing a bit of output. Maximum output will lose some of the really low bass, but you'll get more volume from the more common mid and upper bass. I currently have mine set to max output, but maximum extension was cool also.

Enjoy.

As promised, played golf till sundown and met some buds afterwards. Looks like I'm going to have a new subwoofer get tofether in the next couple of weeks. They guys are already impressd with my setup, wait until they get a dose of some REAL bass. LOL !! I can't wait.

I like to tinker so yes, I will try all of the different configurations. It didn't even occur to me that there was a switch that had to be re-set according to ouput/extension config. I like to listen to music but also have to watch my latest netflix delivery so I think I'll start out with max output. The movie soundtracks are mostly enjoyable as well so I'll go with the max extension mode a little later.

Thanks for the tips, that should help getting it set up and trying differnt modes much easier.

I think you will be surprised at how quick they ship. I think my EX made the trek from Cali to Florida in like 4 days. Thanks to FedEx! :D

Man I thought I was in business since Outlaw appears to be located in Mass. and I thought it would get here to NJ in no time. Called in and find that it will be shipped from their warehouse in Cally <sigh>. I sure hope is doesn't get here Thursday. I have a tee time for 27 holes FREE from the course that hassled my partner for the way she was dressed. Her top didn't have a collar (jeez).

Anyways, I'm stoked to hook it up and start 'twiddling' until I get it just right. I bought a Gramma but may not use it at first, so I can try and detect a difference.

Hi PannyMann,

Congrats on your purchase! Please check back with any questions or comments. There are lots of owners here that are more than willing to help you.:cool:

Golf was once my only hobby, now that I have found the thrill of Home Theater, I play golf three times a year vs. three times a week.:D:D

Larry

I can feel fall closing in so it's time to get some indoor toys to keep me occupied during that upcoming clod months. I get out and play twice a week/ Love the fresh air, great peeps and the challenge of it all. My new challenge is going to be resisting the urge to buy too much HT. This place has that effect on you just like the golf forums. The ONLY cure is to avoid logging in (which is impossible).

I can feel fall closing in so it's time to get some indoor toys to keep me occupied during that upcoming clod months. I get out and play twice a week/ Love the fresh air, great peeps and the challenge of it all. My new challenge is going to be resisting the urge to buy too much HT. This place has that effect on you just like the golf forums. The ONLY cure is to avoid logging in (which is impossible).

Absolutely agree. This place is a black hole for your wallet, no doubt about it. But man the results are sure worth it (at least to those of us who keep on loggin in ;))

Absolutely agree. This place is a black hole for your wallet, no doubt about it. But man the results are sure worth it (at least to those of us who keep on loggin in ;))

Here I am, back again -- LOL !!!!

My enhanced woofage will arrive here Thursday. That will be interesting since I'm playhing golf all day am considering having a neighbor sign for it. The problem is going to be getting it into the house. Hmmm, maybe I should not leave a note or anything and wait until Fedex comes back the next day when I'll be home. Hmmmmmm...

Here I am, back again -- LOL !!!!

My enhanced woofage will arrive here Thursday. That will be interesting since I'm playhing golf all day am considering having a neighbor sign for it. The problem is going to be getting it into the house. Hmmm, maybe I should not leave a note or anything and wait until Fedex comes back the next day when I'll be home. Hmmmmmm...

Skip golf. Go play the next day. :D Don't forget, you have to pre-wire, etc. for the new sub! I would have everything ready to go. That way, when FedEx shows, you just unbox and start playing.

Skip golf. Go play the next day. :D Don't forget, you have to pre-wire, etc. for the new sub! I would have everything ready to go. That way, when FedEx shows, you just unbox and start playing.

That's what I'd do, but unless you're a golfer (not sure if you are or not) it's really hard to understand how important golf is. It was sure right at the top of my list of priorities a few years back.

That said, I agree with your advice. Heck, if my Castle is scheduled to come on a school day, I'm ditching for sure to make sure I can sign for that baby and get it all set up :D

That's what I'd do, but unless you're a golfer (not sure if you are or not) it's really hard to understand how important golf is. It was sure right at the top of my list of priorities a few years back.

That said, I agree with your advice. Heck, if my Castle is scheduled to come on a school day, I'm ditching for sure to make sure I can sign for that baby and get it all set up :D

I have some new toys coming tomorrow. I am working from home and prepping everything ahead of time. :D

I tried the golf thing. My slice was too bad. Gave up when the ball went farther behind me than in front. :o

weverb, livin' in a warm climate and no golf:eek::eek::eek:. That is too bad...

I am looking forward to your results!:)

Larry

weverb, livin' in a warm climate and no golf:eek::eek::eek:. That is too bad...

I think the funniest thing I have seen around here is the night golf! Maybe that's what I should take up so I don't have to see how bad I would do. :) I will admit, I do play golf on the Wii though.

I found this link again. Thought it would be good to post again just in case some have missed it.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/2316/shootout-five-mid-price-subwoofers.html

Enjoy.

New toys just arrived. :)

I don't think the WAF will accept pic #1!

New toys just arrived. :)

I don't think the WAF will accept pic #1!

Looking Purdy!

Hi weverb,

My Wife just looked at pic #1 and said "no way". BTW, she also said that was a beautiful piece of furniture!

Larry

Hi weverb,

My Wife just looked at pic #1 and said "no way". BTW, she also said that was a beautiful piece of furniture!

Larry

I can only imagine how bad it would look with two of them all lit up! That's my wife's antique desk. :p

^^
The Wife was speechless when I said you were going to have two in the desk drawer.

weverb, how does the sub only look with the new equipment?

Larry

^^
The Wife was speechless when I said you were going to have two in the desk drawer.

weverb, how does the sub only look with the new equipment?

Larry

I was kidding. It was always planned to go right next to the Behringer in the cabinet. You will never see it. I was joking with Wayne about a cherry equipment rack. That's where the picture originated from.

I have not been able to measure just the subs yet. I will do that tomorrow. I post a comparison graph of the RS vs ECM8000 results. I am guessing they should be very close.

I was kidding. It was always planned to go right next to the Behringer in the cabinet. You will never see it. I was joking with Wayne about a cherry equipment rack. That's where the picture originated from.

Eight drawers for your wife and one for you seems fair to me.:D

Yeah, they are much better behind closed doors.:) I am looking forward to your sub only graphs.

Larry

That's what I'd do, but unless you're a golfer (not sure if you are or not) it's really hard to understand how important golf is. It was sure right at the top of my list of priorities a few years back.

That said, I agree with your advice. Heck, if my Castle is scheduled to come on a school day, I'm ditching for sure to make sure I can sign for that baby and get it all set up :D

You guys are making this TOUGH ! Ok, calibration will be required but not prwiring since it will replace the JBL Venue sub12. It will go into the same spot soooooo.... That leaves uncrating and lugging across the floor to the spot vacated by the JBL. Then I get to fool around ( with the sub and receiver settings ).

As far as golf goes, I'm a junkie and these is a FREE 27 holes man. Besides that, I shot my best nine EVER today - a smooth 36. My previous best was 42. SO now I'm stoked to see how I do over 27 holes !

Then again, if I'm thinking about the arrival of my new LFM-1+ all day while I'm trying to play...HHMMMMMM This is TOUGH !!!

You guys are making this TOUGH ! Ok, calibration will be required but not prwiring since it will replace the JBL Venue sub12. It will go into the same spot soooooo.... That leaves uncrating and lugging across the floor to the spot vacated by the JBL. Then I get to fool around ( with the sub and receiver settings ).

As far as golf goes, I'm a junkie and these is a FREE 27 holes man. Besides that, I shot my best nine EVER today - a smooth 36. My previous best was 42. SO now I'm stoked to see how I do over 27 holes !

Then again, if I'm thinking about the arrival of my new LFM-1+ all day while I'm trying to play...HHMMMMMM This is TOUGH !!!

You broke your previous best nine holes by SIX STROKES!?!? Wow!

For some reason, I don't think I'll be shooting 7 or 8 under next time I play....

And yes, we ARE making it hard. It's not ALL fun and games. Besides, I'm feeling the pain of waiting a month for a Castle, so I figured I'd drag you (gently) down with me :p

You broke your previous best nine holes by SIX STROKES!?!? Wow!

For some reason, I don't think I'll be shooting 7 or 8 under next time I play....

And yes, we ARE making it hard. It's not ALL fun and games. Besides, I'm feeling the pain of waiting a month for a Castle, so I figured I'd drag you (gently) down with me :p

My mistake was looking at my score at the turn. I keep it using my GPS unit and glanced at it when I finished 9. I'm like WOW, got tight thinking about it and fell apart like a cheap suit from K-Mart on the back nine. Ended up with a 47 for a not too bad for me 83. I had a chance to break 80 for the 1st time as well <sigh>. Still a good sign though.

Weather forecast for Thursday is deteriorating here in NJ <hee hee hee>. Looks like I may have to make a decisiosn here soon. Wouldn't want my woofage to get wet.

Stay home! You can then make a pretty graph like this. :D

Very nice weverb!

You have some kick between 15 to 20Hz. I have looked at so many graphs...how does this compare to the RS meter?

Larry

You have some kick between 15 to 20Hz. I have looked at so many graphs...how does this compare to the RS meter?

Here is a comparison of the RS meter (purple) versus the ECM8000 (blue). I then changed my xo to 100 Hz to get the graph in post #951. The ECM8000 hugged the hard knee even closer (second graph).

Stay home! You can then make a pretty graph like this. :D

Raining Thursday, so THE SUB WINS !!! - LOL

Ok, besides an SPL meter, how much more do I have to spend to gen a graph like that ? Looks like some serious EQ is going on.

Hi PannyMann,

Not too much. The Room EQ Wizard Software is free and cables from monoprice.com should be around 20 bucks max. The BFD EQ is 100 bucks new or 50 - 60 bucks used. I used my desktop to run REW as I have no laptop available.

The REW will really help with sub placement and get you started learning the software. Head on over to the Shack for more information:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/

Also, feel free to post any questions here. Good Luck!

Larry

Raining Thursday, so THE SUB WINS !!! - LOL

Ok, besides an SPL meter, how much more do I have to spend to gen a graph like that ? Looks like some serious EQ is going on.

A good sound card and a couple of cables. Not too bad actually.

There are only three eq filters to get that curve. Ask Larry, eq'ing subs is not that hard/bad.

There are only three eq filters to get that curve.

WOW, that is very impressive!:cool::cool:

Larry

Raining Thursday, so THE SUB WINS !!! - LOL

Ok, besides an SPL meter, how much more do I have to spend to gen a graph like that ? Looks like some serious EQ is going on.

Tomorrow is your due date...... :D

Hi PannyMann,

Not too much. The Room EQ Wizard Software is free and cables from monoprice.com should be around 20 bucks max. The BFD EQ is 100 bucks new or 50 - 60 bucks used. I used my desktop to run REW as I have no laptop available.

The REW will really help with sub placement and get you started learning the software. Head on over to the Shack for more information:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/

Also, feel free to post any questions here. Good Luck!

Larry

Where is the eq connected to your receiver ?

Tomorrow is your due date...... :D

Yes it is and I'm concerned with tracking results. Tracking showed it in transit Friday until this morning. THEN this morning it showed an update dated monday the 22nd that it was in Ohio. Seems that they would have posted that on the 22nd instead of 2 days later. Now when I get home, Fedex tracking shows it arrived at Lewisberry PA at 1:30 this afternoon. End of updates. I live on New Jersey about 2 hours away BTW.

All I can say at this point is that I hope they get their hustle on overnight tonight and get it on a truck and show it "out for delivery" when I wake up tomorrow. If not, I'll pester Fedex a bit even though it won't do any good.

Yes it is and I'm concerned with tracking results. Tracking showed it in transit Friday until this morning. THEN this morning it showed an update dated monday the 22nd that it was in Ohio. Seems that they would have posted that on the 22nd instead of 2 days later. Now when I get home, Fedex tracking shows it arrived at Lewisberry PA at 1:30 this afternoon. End of updates. I live on New Jersey about 2 hours away BTW.

All I can say at this point is that I hope they get their hustle on overnight tonight and get it on a truck and show it "out for delivery" when I wake up tomorrow. If not, I'll pester Fedex a bit even though it won't do any good.

:( Hope things work out and it gets there tomorrow. My Castle's going to be shipping FedEx as well, so this isn't exactly inspiring confidence :cool:

FedEx is usually better than UPS. There are times UPS will not deliver my stuff until like 8pm. They are only a couple blocks from the house. FedEx always delivers by 2pm and Saturdays are free.

PannyMann - you sound like me. Always checking the tracking and worrying because they are lazy to update on a regular basis. I am sure you will see it tomorrow.

FedEx is usually better than UPS. There are times UPS will not deliver my stuff until like 8pm. They are only a couple blocks from the house. FedEx always delivers by 2pm and Saturdays are free.

PannyMann - you sound like me. Always checking the tracking and worrying because they are lazy to update on a regular basis. I am sure you will see it tomorrow.

Same here! Our UPS almost never gets here before 6:30 pm, and sometimes it's after 8:00. I've always figured we're at the end of their route, but maybe they're just lazy.

FedEx is usually better than UPS. There are times UPS will not deliver my stuff until like 8pm. They are only a couple blocks from the house. FedEx always delivers by 2pm and Saturdays are free.

PannyMann - you sound like me. Always checking the tracking and worrying because they are lazy to update on a regular basis. I am sure you will see it tomorrow.

4AM AND CAN'T SLEEP - I'VE GOT IT BAAAD !!! LOL !!

It still shows arrived at the PA location dangit. It's probably on the truck and they just didn't update the system (optimistic view).

Both UPS and Fedex are usually pretty good in this area. Between golf clubs from the golf forum swap shop and electronics, I've used them both often over the years. UPS is always here by 4P and Fedex by 6P. THe town is on the outer fringes of both service areas according to the drivers when I asked why they deliver late in the day on a consistent basis.

Very seldom do I get a box that is damaged in the slightest and when I have, the contents have still been in good shape.

THis is just bugging me this time because tracking is usually spot on but looks like updates are laggin behind this time. Estimated delivery is still sssset at today though. I hope they get here before the golf preventing rain starts.

Ok, back to bed for some more tossing and turning.

4AM AND CAN'T SLEEP - I'VE GOT IT BAAAD !!! LOL !!

Ok, back to bed for some more tossing and turning.

LOL...:D Ben there many of times myself.

Where is the eq connected to your receiver ?

Hi PannyMann,

Good Luck Today!:)

I run a sub cable out of my AVR's SUB-WOOFER PREOUT to the INPUT on my Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro (BFD). Then another sub cable from the BFD OUTPUT to the SUB IN on the LFM-1EX.

Larry

LOL...:D Ben there many of times myself.

It's on the truck. IT'S ON THE TRUCK !!!!!

The garbage truck sounds like the Fedex truck coming.

The shuttle bus sounds like the Fedex truck coming.

The school bus sounds like the Fedex truck coming.

The truck delivering laundered shirts to the guy next door sounds like the Fedex truck coming.

And why did a fire truck have to cruise by ?

I CAN'T STAND IT !!

Hi PannyMann,

Good Luck Today!:)

I run a sub cable out of my AVR's SUB-WOOFER PREOUT to the INPUT on my Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro (BFD). Then another sub cable from the BFD OUTPUT to the SUB IN on the LFM-1EX.

Larry

I was wondering if it eq'd an amplified signal or not.

Have to think about this later, my toy is almost here.

I was wondering if it eq'd an amplified signal or not.

Have to think about this later, my toy is almost here.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think the BFD has to be in the chain before the signal is amplified. weverb just EQ'ed his highs with an outboard amp and he will be able to tell us if the EQ was before or after the amp.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think the BFD has to be in the chain before the signal is amplified. weverb just EQ'ed his highs with an outboard amp and he will be able to tell us if the EQ was before or after the amp.

Before the amp.

New graphs of my highs available at the Shack for those interested. ;)

im stuck on hsu 3.3 or outlaw ex.....help me. I know people say you cant go wrong with either. If a person tested these side by side which one would prevail? I read the 5 sub showdown and it says that outlaw started to show stress when pushed?

I forgot to post a picture of my THIRD woofer! :D

im stuck on hsu 3.3 or outlaw ex.....help me. I know people say you cant go wrong with either. If a person tested these side by side which one would prevail? I read the 5 sub showdown and it says that outlaw started to show stress when pushed?

Tell us more about your room, needs, goals, etc. Are looks, placement, etc. an issue?

wow fast response. Id like to have the best bang for the dollar. and hoping not to spend more then 700. Thats the max, but wouldnt mind saving some money going 5-600. My room is small but I always believe in getting more the first time so when I do move into something bigger im not having to upgrade again. But again I dont think im going to win the lotto anytime soon and have a huge home theatre room.
Current room size is (estimate) 16x12. about 8ft high. Looks is a lil important. I mean its not a huge importance but atleast look clean. For placement i have about 18"x29" footprint to work with.

Are you going after mostly movies? Any music? When I asked about placement, are there only a couple of corners available, mid one wall, or something like just next to the tv?

You cannot go wrong with either sub. The 3.3 is heavier which helps it handle the very low Hz better. The EX is no slouch down to 16Hz. The 3.3 has the turbo option, but I would be surprised if you needed it in that small of a room.

yea mostly movies. Some music but not as much as movies. The placement i had in mind was front left corner of the room next to the left front speaker.

yea mostly movies. Some music but not as much as movies. The placement i had in mind was front left corner of the room next to the left front speaker.

Both will work there. Due to the size of your room, you will probably have a room mode (big peak) at 70Hz. Are you aware of the design differences and the pluses/minuses of those differences between the two?

kinda. I been reading for the last week or so on them. The ports on the Hsu are on the rear. The ports on the outlaw are facing the floor, less port noise. When you say big peak at 70hz, is that good or bad? Im new to the gauging of bass tones or actually any tone ratings at all, but would like to understand more.

kinda. I been reading for the last week or so on them. The ports on the Hsu are on the rear. The ports on the outlaw are facing the floor, less port noise. When you say big peak at 70hz, is that good or bad? Im new to the gauging of bass tones or actually any tone ratings at all, but would like to understand more.

Its a bad thing. Any 70Hz tone will sound louder than the rest. You want a balance is sound through the low to higher frequencies.

no way to remedy this? Unless i change the room ? How about subwoofer placement?

no way to remedy this? Unless i change the room ? How about subwoofer placement?

Placement might help some. A BFD (eq for subs) will help tame it.

It's on the truck. IT'S ON THE TRUCK !!!!!

The garbage truck sounds like the Fedex truck coming.

The shuttle bus sounds like the Fedex truck coming.

The school bus sounds like the Fedex truck coming.

The truck delivering laundered shirts to the guy next door sounds like the Fedex truck coming.

And why did a fire truck have to cruise by ?

I CAN'T STAND IT !!

LOL! I'm only laughing because I've done the same thing :o. Of course, sometimes when I'm anticipating a package I hear things, look outside, and there's nothing there at all :cool:. Now that's embarrassing! Hope it arrive safe and sound :). I'm preparing myself to be in a similar state in another week or two.

It's on the truck. IT'S ON THE TRUCK !!!!!

Any luck yet????? :)

I forgot to post a picture of my THIRD woofer! :D

Thats a super low woofer I bet. You need bigger woofers to go wit that one :)

It's on the truck. IT'S ON THE TRUCK !!!!!

Well! Did it show up?

Well! Did it show up?

OK !! I'm good to go. It got here yesterday at about 10A, I helped the guy carry it into the living room which is a one foot drop down from the Dining room. The packaging is really top notch and there were no dings or dents in the packaging or sub.

Got it hooked up in about .5hr and played it all day yesterday in max extension mode. I was too boomy at first but I shifted it's position and played with crossover and settings on my Mirage OMD-15 mains. Audyssey set them at "Full Band" as usual, so I played with crossover at 80hz down to 40hz. The receivier on ly lets me go down to 80hz crossover on the LFE and I've been varying that too.

After fooling around most of the afternoon, I watched a movie called Stop Loss last night, Good battle scenes. The 50 Calibre machine gun was a series of crisp, rapid thumps that were a lot stronger and "crisp" than my old JBL Sub12. The Explosions were very impressive. I have it sitting on a Gramma, but I see I still need to fugure otu what to do with various objects that still rattle.

I have to say that I'm a bit disapointed in it's performance with music. It's a bit muddy and not as tight as I expected. I hate to say it but my cheap JBL was much tighter but, I fiddled around with it for a couple of weeks before I got it where I wanted it. Today, I'm running the LFM1+ in Max output mode and have juggled levels and crossover settings and at the moment it is sounding nicht and tight but I need a little more "punch". Maybe I'll add a couple DB of gain.

All in all I am very pleased with my purchase and feel that I made the right move. I'm beginning to understand what deep powerful bass should really sound like and as I tweak, it us just getting better. I also think that this puppy is "breaking in". I mean the sound seems to be "opening up" for lack of a better description. It's that or me ears are adjusting.

At any rate, with the cooler weather approaching, I can feel a Feedback Destroyer in the works. It will be fun really fine tuning and getting the absolute best out of my system.

I appreciate all of you guys interest in my journey and have enjoyed the laughs we've been able to share. I'm sure I'll be leaning on you for advice as I focus on optimising my new toy. Having BIG fun.

Congrats and welcome to the family. Don't hesitate to ask questions. For music, I am sure you will enjoy max output more. You way want to start looking into running REW to help you with your placement and fine tuning. It will help you understand and see the overall performance of the sub versus what a spike might mislead you to believe.

The receivier only lets me go down to 80hz crossover on the LFE and I've been varying that too.
Are you referring to the low pass filter for the LFE channel? It's not a crossover. You should leave it at 120Hz unless you're trying to filter out hum in the LFE channel.

Are you referring to the low pass filter for the LFE channel? It's not a crossover. You should leave it at 120Hz unless you're trying to filter out hum in the LFE channel.

I have an Onkyo sr705. In speaker settings, it allows for setting each speakers crossover point. For my mains and surrounds, I can go down to 40hz at which point I assume frequencies lower than that are attenuated.
I can also set the crossover for the LFE channel. The lowest it allows is 80hz and I assume that since it's the LFE channel then frequencies above that setting are attenuated. Have the low pass filter on the sub set to bypass.

Are my assumptions correct or am I all hosed up ?

Congrats and welcome to the family. Don't hesitate to ask questions. For music, I am sure you will enjoy max output more. You way want to start looking into running REW to help you with your placement and fine tuning. It will help you understand and see the overall performance of the sub versus what a spike might mislead you to believe.

Thanks for the welcome and yes it does sound better with music when its set on max output. I wish I had a remote so I could change settings for when I'm listening to music vs watching a movie. But then there is the plugging the port issue. Oh well, somehow I'll just have to suffer through it - LOL !

Now help me understand what REW means please ?

REW = Room Eq Wizard

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/11707-room-eq-wizard-rew-information-index-links-guides-articles-stickies-please-read.html

It will become your next challenge/friend! :D

I have an Onkyo sr705. In speaker settings, it allows for setting each speakers crossover point. For my mains and surrounds, I can go down to 40hz at which point I assume frequencies lower than that are attenuated.
I can also set the crossover for the LFE channel. The lowest it allows is 80hz and I assume that since it's the LFE channel then frequencies above that setting are attenuated. Have the low pass filter on the sub set to bypass.

Are my assumptions correct or am I all hosed up ?
I have an Onkyo SR606 with similar settings. There's no need to attenuate the LFE channel unless you're getting noise/hum.

According to Dolby, LFE is 120Hz and below:

http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/English_(US)/Professional/Technical_Library/Technologies/Dolby_Digital_(AC-3)/38_LFE.pdf

If you set the low-pass frequency below 120Hz, you're potentially (and unnecessarily) filtering out some of the top-end LFE channel sound.

Hey, BTW, welcome to the thread!

First, I'm sorry for the length of this post.:eek:

Ok, for reference, here is what I have:

Polk Speakers all around:

Fronts are RtiA3 (Bookshelf). FR is 50 – 26Khz (-3dB)
Center is CSiA6. FR is 55 – 26Khz (-3dB)
Surrounds are FxiA6. (Dipole Setting) FR is 55 – 26Khz (-3dB)
Back Surrounds are RtiA1. FR is 60 – 26Khz (-3dB)

(2) Outlaw Audio LFM-1 PLUS Subwoofers:

12” driver
Dual 3” Ports
350 WRMS (1300W Peak) BASH Amp
25Hz – 180 Hz +/- 2 dB w/o plug.
18Hz – 180Hz +/- 2dB with one port plugged
SPL = 115dB
Dimensions (H x W x D): 20.0” x 15.0” x 22.0”)
Weight: 58lbs
Each sub set to Max Extension
Each sub’s volume control is at 4
Phase is set to “180”

(2) Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX Subwoofers:

12” driver
Dual 3” Ports
350 WRMS (1300W Peak) BASH Amp
22Hz – 180 Hz +/- 2 dB w/o plug.
16Hz – 180Hz +/- 2dB with one port plugged
SPL = 118dB
Dimensions (H x W x D): 21.50” x 17.0” x 24.0”)
Weight: 80 lbs
Each sub set to Max Extension
Each sub’s volume control is at 4
Phase is set to “0”

My Dedicated Theater Room (around 3000 cu ft):

The room is 20’ x 15’ with a cathedral or sloped ceiling starting at a height of 9’ (The Left Wall) that slopes to a height of 11’ (The Right Wall). The ceiling is exposed with (6) 4” x 10” solid oak beams supporting a tongue & groove hardwood roof. Standard drywall walls and a poured concrete floor with ½” thick high density carpet pad & ½” thick pile wall to wall carpet. There are (2) two person sofas located 4’ from the back wall. The entrance is a solid wood door (36” wide) located in the back left corner of the room.

Here is some background on me:

My first HT was in 1990 with JBL speakers and no sub!:eek::eek:
Added a Mission 50 watt sub a couple of years later.
Also have a Polk Audio PSW10 that is used for a dedicated music
set-up for my wife.

My parents gave my wife and me a Bose AM16 system for our wedding
and I'm sure I don't need to go into how bad this system was. They had
the best of intentions and the Bose system lead me to AVS for answers.
The best thing (only thing) about Bose is Re-sale value.;):p;)

The first LFM-1 Plus arrived on 4-7-08 and it immediately blew me out of the water given my history of subs. After about 30 days, I realize that I needed some more output for my room size.

The second LFM-1 Plus arrived on 5-23-08 and this combo package was
a hugh step up over just one sub. Another big impact just like before.
Since I didn't order the LFM-1 Plus Special, I paid a little more in shipping.
Total for two was $1,030.20.

My Wife surprised me to no end on my Birthday when she ordered the LFM-1 EX Special with free shipping on 7-20-08. Total was $1,098.00.
(Side Note: This is the best deal going from Outlaw and it appears that Outlaw offers it a couple times each year and they have there "own" credit card with 12 months same as cash)

Both of these subs are great for the price paid. In hindsight, I would have
started with the EX as it is worth the extra $100 + additional shipping charges vs. the LFM-1 Plus. I am sure that a pair of EXs would have sufficed for a longer period than a pair of LFM-1 Pluses.

The benefits of the LFM-1 Plus Subwoofer:

Smaller foot print and more placement options.
Can easily pass as an end table.
Higher WAF.
Easier to move around the room.
Very, very good bang for the buck.

The limits of the LFM-1 Plus subwoofer (in my room):

Playing movies with content below 20 Hz can be a problem.
(Very noticeable with a single sub.)

On paper the EX looks very close spec wise to the LFM-1 Plus. In reality, the EX, physically, looks huge compared to the Plus. If you looked at both models side by side, the EX is worth the extra $100 bucks + additional shipping charges. IMHO, the sound from the EX is better suited to my size room.

In a comparable sized theater room, here is what I would recommend in order of price/budget:

1) One LFM-1 EX subwoofer.
2) Two LFM-1 Plus subwoofers.
3) Two LFM-1 EX subwoofers.
4) Two of each model subwoofers.
5) Four LFM-1 EX subwoofers.:eek::):eek::)

Bottom line: I love all four of these subs and I am in tweaker heaven!

If your room requires only one sub from Outlaw Audio, that sub should be the LFM-1 EX. It is the best bang for the buck from Outlaw Audio!

Larry

Great post Larry. I can't believe your WIFE bought you the two EX's...especially after you already had two Pluses! You got yourself a good one there, Larry :). I keep forgetting you have four subs. Makes me a little jealous considering I have none right now :(. By the way, pictures of this setup would be more than welcome :D.

Here are some pictures of Larry's set-up.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14480491#post14480491

Larry,

This post will probably be great info for those on the fence between the Plus and EX. I am sure we will be referencing many people back to it. Thanks for taking the time to write it up. It might be worth taking a couple pix of the Plus sitting next to an EX so others can visually see the difference.

REW = Room Eq Wizard

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/11707-room-eq-wizard-rew-information-index-links-guides-articles-stickies-please-read.html

It will become your next challenge/friend! :D

Oh oh, this looks like some fun. Time to study up.

Great post Larry. I can't believe your WIFE bought you the two EX's...especially after you already had two Pluses! You got yourself a good one there, Larry :). I keep forgetting you have four subs. Makes me a little jealous considering I have none right now :(. By the way, pictures of this setup would be more than welcome :D.

Yep, she is a keeper.:)

BTW, if I lived closer to you, I would loan you a pair of subs until your Castle arrives. No man should be sub-less.:D:D

Larry

It might be worth taking a couple pix of the Plus sitting next to an EX so others can visually see the difference.

Good idea, weverb!

I will get some pix later today...

Larry

REW = Room Eq Wizard

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/11707-room-eq-wizard-rew-information-index-links-guides-articles-stickies-please-read.html

It will become your next challenge/friend! :D

How long did it take you to get set up, the first time, once you had all of the piece parts purchased/gathered ?

Hi PannyMann,

I think about 30 minutes or so the first time. Now, it takes me under 5 minutes to my first graph.