Being unfamilier with the new equipment i need your help.I am going to upgrade my 10 year old equipment and can afford good stuff.I currently have two 12 inch passive boston subs.I have a very large room with high vaulted ceilings.Do the new subs perform better and should i get a powered sub or should i get a dedicated amp for my existing subs.The thing i am not sure of is has technology gotten better with the new equipment and will the new stuff have more performance.Thanks for looking and giving me your thoughts.

Technology has gotten better, but (contrary to what most will say) not radically so. What was good sounding speaker then remains a good sounding speaker today.

However, newer subwoofers have vastly improved very low frequency response due to the increased emphasis on home theater in the past decade. This is especially noticeable in the mid price ranges (e.g. ~$5-800) where you can now get infrasonic performance undreamt of outside the high end a decade or so ago. Earlier, the emphasis was on clean, smooth response over 30Hz, because that's where 99% of music is found. Even movies did not include the amount of very low frequency sound they do now.

To intelligently try to answer your question more specifically requires more knowledge of your goals and budget. Given your large room, the answer may be both, adding a new powered sub for very low frequency response while still using your Bostons to add headroom and/or smooth your system's overall bass response especially in the mid-bass. But that solution can have it's own drawbacks in some circumstances, so, as I said, more information is needed.

Being unfamilier with the new equipment i need your help.I am going to upgrade my 10 year old equipment and can afford good stuff.I currently have two 12 inch passive boston subs.I have a very large room with high vaulted ceilings.Do the new subs perform better and should i get a powered sub or should i get a dedicated amp for my existing subs.The thing i am not sure of is has technology gotten better with the new equipment and will the new stuff have more performance.Thanks for looking and giving me your thoughts.

Hi

I have a Cerwin-Vega HT-12 PWR that measured 105.9 db from 25-50Hz. About 11 years ago it was considered one of the best performing subs for its price.

Now I have an SVS 20-39PCi and I used it together with my Cerwin-Vega in the same room. The bass was outstanding. I like the "wall of bass" effect I get from using 2 subwoofers in each front corner.

Now I have 2 HSU VTF-3HOs + Turbos. The bass is awesome.
Still, I agree with Macfan, the vast majority of bass is >30Hz.
I can recommend the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus for $499 plus shipping. A pair of them should be great for $998 plus shipping. I like a pair of the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus's more than the new SVS Ultra.

All the Best

PS I greatly prefer powered subs over unpowered subs.

I know you have great enthusiasm for the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus, Spyboy, but since you tout them everywhere on this board, you might as well quote the correct sale price for a pair, which is $949. Now you can like them even better! ;)

While I don't agree with your conclusion regarding the new SVS Ultra 13 (if for no other reason than it isn't out yet, so how is a comparison possible?), I certainly agree that a pair of LFM-1's would be a worthwhile contender in the ~$1000 range.

Still, to properly advise iasm, one should consider various factors, such as what about his present set-up he thinks needs to be improved, how much space he can devote to subs, whether he favors extension or output, and how much he is willing to spend. One size doesn't fit all. :p

I know you have great enthusiasm for the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus, Spyboy, but since you tout them everywhere on this board, you might as well quote the correct sale price for a pair, which is $949. Now you can like them even better! ;)

While I don't agree with your conclusion regarding the new SVS Ultra 13 (if for no other reason than it isn't out yet, so how is a comparison possible?), I certainly agree that a pair of LFM-1's would be a worthwhile contender in the ~$1000 range.

Still, to properly advise iasm, one should consider various factors, such as what about his present set-up he thinks needs to be improved, how much space he can devote to subs, whether he favors extension or output, and how much he is willing to spend. One size doesn't fit all. :p

Thanks for the heads-up on the price of a pair of Outlaw LFM-1 Plus's at the sale price of $949 for a pair. At $949 for a pair plus shipping the dual Outlaws are an even better value than before.

All the Best

Geez, thanks for the heads up Spyboy. What a deal!! Please read David's posting rules regarding pushing/promoting.

Regarding the subs, in your larger room dual subs of any kind would behefit you. What is your room size exactly? Dual 2.3 or 3.3 HSU, or SVS PB12NSD would work great. You could also save room going with dual cylinder subs from SVS.

All the Best.

Bill3508

My room size figures to be 13744 cubic ft. I have an open floor plan.The worst of it is the main room were the sound system is has 27 ft high vaulted ceiling surfaced with fir boards.i have one sub in front in cabinet work and one to the side as a stand alone.there is power at both locations but the one to the side only has a speaker wire to it.Can i send the signal to a powered sub with speaker wire?Are there speakers that perhaps are more directional that may reduse the relections?I am way out of my knolage base with this.

Wow, that is a huge room. I would think your going to need two large subs, like the HSU 3.3 or a couple of the larger SVS cylinders/ or boxes like the PB12+. You just need to split the signal off the receiver and run a rca to each sub. If you wanted to stay on the smaller side you could go with dual JL 113's if money was not much of a concern. All of these are great subs, with the JL being touted as one of the best in class for its size and output, but pricey.

Bill3508

You could also post a pic of your room to give people here an idea of what kind of problem you might have to deal with. There are a lot of very knowledgable people here that can help you, especially regarding the apparant reflective boundaries that you have. A pic would certainly help those here to give recommendations.

Bill3508

Can someone tell me how to post pictures.I have tryed in the past but couldnt figure it out.Thanks guys for the interest in my system.

You can upload an image to this size using the "insert image" button. Or you can go to a site like www.photobucket.com and use [img] tags.

Here are some pictures of the room.I talked with velodine today and they thought perhaps two sc15s might do the job.I am not looking to shake the house but do want tight base for movies.

Here is also a picture of locations for the subs.I am not sure behind the plasma would work but i have one now in the cabinet to the right and one in the left side of the room.

Nice house, but a huge space to pressurize. I'm not familiar with the Velodynes but if you were trying to stay smaller dual JL Audio F113 would probably sound very nice in there. You have a lot of reflective surface in that room so I don't know what kind of problem that would entail. I would think that your going to have some problem really getting "tight" bass instead of boominess in an area that large with so many open spaces and reflective surfaces.

Someone here might be able to point out where you could improve your acoustics with some room treatments.

Bill3508

dual sc15's and the sc1250 amp i think are still cheaper than a single f113

dual sc15's and the sc1250 amp i think are still cheaper than a single f113


I wasn't familiar with the Velo's. People seem to think very highly of the JL given its size and output so thats why I mentioned it. What do you think about his room given the huge open space and hardwood?

Bill3508

The guy at velodine told me the retail cost was at 3k for the system.Does velodine build a quality product?Thanks again for the help.

yes velodyne makes good products.

sorry if I missed these info:

are the old boston subs sealed or ported?
what is your budget?
what is the usage of the setup, 50% HT 50% music?

The boston subs are model 595x 12inch sealed subs with a rating of 250 watts.I have only powered them with one channel off the the main amp (100 watts).One thought i had was mabee to power them with a two channel amp with more power but they may be to old.As far as buget i am not to concerned within reason.

what about usage?
for HT, the suggested ported subs will be great.
for music, the velodynes suggested would be ok as well.
for a combo of music and HT, the suggested F113's have had great reviews from the forum users here.

the velodyne's though have easier wiring flexibility because all they need are speaker wires from the amp.

it all comes down to your size PER subwoofer limitations, quantity of subwoofers, and budget.

Me usage is mostly ht with very little music.I have openings for subs in the cabinet under the amps 18 wide 22 high and 22 deep.There is power in the cabinet.These locations have grilled doors.I also have a side location with no real size contraint.Currently there is only speaker wire and power to this location.Running a new wire may or may not be a problem.
Would you have a preferance to running to subs side by side or spread out in the room?Would it be better and possible to run three subs, two in front and one to the side?

as long as it's the same model of subwoofer, I have no problems with the idea of using multiple subs in different locations. in fact, I feel the benefits outweigh the possible risks of cancellation.

if budget is of no object, I would suggest you get three of the same subs (if you want) AND a velodyne SMS-1.

I feel that a single ported subwoofer will give you crap loads more performance than your existing setup. three will send you to heaven.

I'm not too sure about putting the sub in the cabinet though.

Would you have a preferance to running to subs side by side or spread out in the room?Would it be better and possible to run three subs, two in front and one to the side?

Depends on your room. I have two 12-inch Mirage S-12's, and I ran them in different parts of the room for a while, but I noticed in graphing my bass response that I lost a ton of bass between 45-60 Hz, which is prime bass for movies and music. I graphed them one at a time and found that it was one location causing the problem, so I stacked them both in the "good" location, and my 45-60 Hz suckout disappeared, but I still get the extra oomph from having two subs.

My room is open floor plan, about 3000 cubic feet but very open to the rest of the downstairs, for a total of about 5-6000 cubic feet. With 13000 cubic feet, I'd suggest getting the absolute best, and as many of them as you can afford. perhaps multiples of the new HSU 3.3, maybe even 3 of those things.

one thing that confuses me is that my existing subs and some others i see have a ratting of 250 watts but i see powered subs like the sc15s boasting power of 1250 and more. Are there different ways to measure power and do these powered products with high power claims perform better then units at 250?Seems kinda conflicting.

The rating on a passive sub like yours is the maximum power amp the manufacturer recommends you use with it. On powered subs, it is the size of the amp included. That doesn't mean they could not have used a more powerful amp, only that they choose not to, usually because they thought the size they selected offered the optimum cost/benefit ratio.

There is no necessary correlation between power and quality, although as a rule high powered subs are high quality designs, if for no other reason than high powered amps are expensive and it makes sense to team them with quality components.

Powered subs are engineered for the amps that come with them, and, as you've noticed, vary significantly. Various design considerations come into play, such as the efficiency of the driver. All things being equal, a ported design in a large enclosure requires much less power to produce the same output as a sealed design in a small box. The very high powered subs you've seen are usually quite small for the level of low bass output they can deliver. They use brute force to offset their small size.

Sound quality is a different debate, with each of the various design types having its own advocates.

There are different ways to measure amp power, and close inspection of the specs will reveal that some manufacturers use RMS power while others use peak power. Peak power will always be higher, often 3 or 4X higher, depending upon the design of the amp. Your passive subs are rated for RMS, by the way

Thanks to everyone for the input.I am going to try to find some dealers in my area so a can hear some equipment.I am thinking that two options for me to look at for a start will be (1)two sc15s which are basically the same size as my current subs and come with an amp and i can still use the bostons and a secondary amp if i need more or (2) purchase a new dedicated amp to drive the bostons and then buy the sc15s if needed.I favor the first idea only based on the thought that the bostons are ten tears old and i would think speaker construction would have improved over that time.Please let me know if my thoughts are reasonable.

while the SC15's would be an incredible improvement over your existing subs,
just FYI:
-those are also sealed (and therefore less loud than ported options)
-I would not recommend using both the new subs and your bostons. (combining two subs not of the same quality will make the total results follow that of the crappier sub (or the one with the bad location)

Seeing as no-one has made a suggestion like this... Dual SVS PB12-Plus/2's would be nice, in that space... That is a beautiful house, HUGE floorplan... https://svsound.com/products-sub-box-plus2.cfm

If looks are important, the wood finishes on the SVS units are spot on...
They also fill a large area quite well... And make great looking end tables...

Lots of choices, here is just another... Good luck with your beautiful home...

here are a couple pics of mine....
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/HT-Great%20Room/HTPics012.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/HT-Great%20Room/IMG_1927.jpg

Just an update.went out today and looked at some gear.The first thing that came up was my pre-amp is not digital and the sales guy thought i should look at upgrading that piece before i changed anything.I came home and played some tracks using non digital material and it sounded pretty good.One pre-amp that i liked was the rotel but i need to spend some time with that and then go back to the sub issue.

I like using decent receivers as pre-amp paired with external amps - to stay within a small budget. (definitely cheaper than any dedicated pre-amp I'd consider buying)

if you like movies, you really need to get into the 90's ... :) and get a receiver/modern preamp. you do have surrounds don't you? (I assume you do) you don't have to spend too much money on a pre-amp.

I have updated the reveiver (Rolel 1098)and now am back to fixing my sub problem.I am thinking either 2 of the velodyne sc15s or buying 1 JL 115 and if i need more buying another.What are your thoughts?Also what are your thoughts on placing the JL in the cabinet under the equipment?The doors are screened with speaker fabric.