I am going to build a new house within the next couple of years. I have designed the floor plan with a 13.5' x 33.5' HT on one side of the house. I'm not going to do anything special with sound proofing except for insulating many of the interior walls. With all of the bedrooms on the other side of the house there will be enough rooms and insulated walls between the HT and bedrooms to prevent the HT from being heard in the bedrooms at night.

The new HT will have 3 rows of seating plus a bar area with bar stools behind the third row. The second row will be on a 10" riser and the third row will be up another 12". It will have a 9' ceiling with a soffit running along each side. There will be an isle on both sides because I want all of the seating to be within the viewing cone of my HP screen, or at least close to it.

Right now I've got an office/HT room that is about the same width but approx. 10 feet shorter. I'm happy with the PQ that I have now. I am going to paint the walls and ceiling darker and get a new PJ but I'm planning on using the same basic set-up that I have now.

However, I've been reading about the sound side and for some reason I'm just not getting it, at least not yet. What I'm looking for is something that sounds good but it doesn't have to be perfect. I'm not a person that sits in the middle of the room trying to distinguish every note in the music. This is why I'm asking my questions here instead of the speaker forum. I'm looking for HT sound advice and not music advice.

I have been using a Yamaha 795 with Boston Acoustics Micro90c center, Micro90x front, VRS Micro surround, and Micro90pv sub speakers. For the size room we have now they sound very good. I am planning on getting either the Onkyo 605 or the 705 to replace the Yamaha.

So finally to my questions. First, are room treatments really necessary and if they are a must then has anyone put together a dummies guide to basic treatments? There must be some basic generic treatments that will improve the sound without having to achieve perfection.

The second question is what should I do about speakers? Will what I have (plus adding rear speakers to my 5.1 set-up) be good enough for me to enjoy the better sound from my Blu-ray and HD-DVDs when I get the Onkyo and can use the higher quality audio tracks?

Again, I'm not looking for the best sound, just something that sounds good. I think what I have now sounds good but I don't have anything to compare it to in order to know just how much I might be missing. I should also add that I'm more interested in PQ then sound quality. Which means that if my current set-up gets me 75% - 80% of the possible sound quality then I'd rather keep the speakers that I have now.

I am wondering the same. What are some basic treatments you can do to a room for better sound.

Have you read Ethan's FAQ?

See also F. Alton Everest's Master Handbook of acoustics.

edit: here's the faq: http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

Some room treatments are necessary, especially in a dedicated space, where they can be made a bit less intrusive than in a formal living room, for example. :)

Basics for HT: treat the front wall with absorbtion (in the shape of a square bracket, coming out along the walls to about the depth of the front side speakers). Don't put your speakers right up against any wall (surrounds excepted), and get that sub out of the corner! (Yes, it's *loudest* if you put it there, but it's much cleaner if it's not there. Humans judge loud very easily.) Next most important is to treat the first reflection side points with absorbtion, and close behind that (or almost tied), for HT use is the need for bass trapping.

If you do just that, my prediction is you'll be extremely happy with the sound in the room, and you're talking WELL under $1000 for DIY versions of all the above. Well...

Next level is Linacoustic on the side and rear walls up to ear level, and measurement/modeling of the room. I'm closing next month, and I'll probably be going at least that far in my quest, but basic acoustic treatment in a dedicated space will get you a room for which 99.9% of the population has never heard a better movie presentation in a private home. How many more 9s do you really want/need to add?

Have you read Ethan's FAQ?

See also F. Alton Everest's Master Handbook of acoustics.

edit: here's the faq: http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

How about something that is geared towards HT. It was hard to follow for someone new to this. I'm sure one day it will make sense to me :D

Basics for HT: treat the front wall with absorbtion (in the shape of a square bracket, coming out along the walls to about the depth of the front side speakers). Don't put your speakers right up against any wall (surrounds excepted), and get that sub out of the corner! (Yes, it's *loudest* if you put it there, but it's much cleaner if it's not there. Humans judge loud very easily.) Next most important is to treat the first reflection side points with absorbtion, and close behind that (or almost tied), for HT use is the need for bass trapping.


So your saying treat the front wall and then the sides and ceiling out to the equivalent of the front of the front speakers?

Is there somewhere that gives suggestions on how to hide the treatments? Do you always have to use fabric to cover the treatments?

BTW, thank you for taking the time to give me some answers.

How about something that is geared towards HT. It was hard to follow for someone new to this. I'm sure one day it will make sense to me :D

There's nothing magical about rooms that HTs are in. All the principles are the same. Physics doesn't change just because you're doing home theater...

has anyone put together a dummies guide to basic treatments? There must be some basic generic treatments that will improve the sound without having to achieve perfection.

Part of the problem with a 'dummies guide' is that there are some different opinions on how best to do it.

I strongly second the recommendation to get the 'Master Handbook of Acoustics' book. It's big, but it specifically avoids complex math and gives a good feel for the issues being dealt with.

**Disclaimer: I'm NOT an expert, and have NOT finished my first HT. This is just my understanding gleaned from this group and the Master Handbook. Hopefully this will plant enough of the ideas and terminology that you can search for posts from the experts (Dennis Erskine, Bryan Pape, Terry Montlick, and Ethan Winer come to mind) on the topics in the Acoustical Treatment Master Thread **

**Request to the pros: if I get anything below majorly off, please let me know. I'll edit.**

From my reading of the whole Acoustical Treatments Master Thread and from the Master Handbook, a distillation of the goals:

1) You would like enough absorption on the walls of the room so that sound decays relatively quickly (maybe .25-.5 seconds?). If there is a gun shot in a movie, you want to hear a sharp gunshot, or whatever reverb the movie sound man put in. You don't want to hear 3 seconds of reverb off that gunshot masking the whispered dialog of the person bleeding to death.

2) You don't want 'over absorption'. This one is a bit less clear to me. I get the impression that for movies, THX wouldn't mind a very absorptive room. In a 7.1 theater, they want you to hear only what's coming from the speakers and nothing else. However, stereo music listening (if that is important to you) is apparently mixed in such a way that it will not sound good if the room doesn't sustain the sound for a bit. Also, the room will apparently 'sound dead' to people during normal conversation if it is overly absorptive.

3) As much as you can, you would like the absorption to be 'broad spectrum'. You want to absorb high and low frequency sound equally. If you put 1/2" of fiberglass on all wall surfaces, 1KHz and up would be very quickly absorbed, but 250 HZ wouldn't be absorbed much at all. Bad for sound quality, and equalization won't fix it.

4) Localization: you want your ears/brain to be able to correctly identify the location of a sound. If someone is talking on the left side of the screen, you want to be able to close your eyes and point your finger at the actor. To achieve this, you would like the direct sound from the left speaker to hit your ear, and to have no other comparably loud versions of that sound hit your ear for some period of time after the direct sound (20ms?). This generally means that the 'first reflections' (the reflections that will get to your ear quickly after the direct sound) from each of the front three speakers to each listener spot should be damped down in the mid to high frequencies. 1-2" fiberglass panels on the left/right wall, possibly on ceiling, carpet on the floor are typical. Search for 'first reflection' to get the idea. Look for 'mirror' for a quick method of identifying the first reflection points, or use trigonometry, or look for the free software thread.

5) Back wall: I'm less clear on this, it's discussed less than the front/side walls. I've heard discussions of wanting diffusion instead of absorption on the back wall, and concerns about how close the rear seats are to the back wall (the rears seats have a first reflection point that matters off of the back wall).

6) Low frequency room modes. Essentially, you want to understand and or minimize low frequency standing waves in the room. These may be across the room between parallel surfaces or on various diagonals. Look up 'room modes'. This is too big a topic to cover here. Typical approaches: Bass traps, most effective in the corners; thick absorption space 6" from a wall (tough to do in most rooms); smart sub-woofer/seat placement to minimize room mode effects.

Some generic approaches I've seen advocated:

a) treat the whole front wall with 1-2" thick absorption (typically cloth covered fiberglass panels). Absorption on the bottom half of the side walls. Some think this method is too absorptive in high freqs, not enough in low. Make sure the bottom half of the wall covers all the first reflection points.

b) Treat the whole front wall. Place 1-2" thick panels at the first reflection points. This typically means 1-2 panels per wall, wide enough to cover all the first reflection points, possibly panels on the ceiling. Carpet on the floor. Then add more absorption around the room as needed, determined by ear or by measuring the sound decay time with a PC and microphone. (if you see the phrase RT60, that is a measure of the time it takes for a sound to decay. You'll also see 'waterfall' plots that show sound decay over time at different frequencies).

c) Lots of broadband absorption (bass traps). Bass traps in the front corners (search for superchunks) or panel absorbers. Back corners as well. Soffit/ceiling/wall corners. Anywhere you can put them, generally can't have too many.

These approaches are not mutually exclusive. Bryan Pape is doing my treatment design and I don't have a plan yet, but I'm guessing I'll end up with a treated front wall, bass traps in the front corners and possibly elsewhere (I would do back corners as well, but I'm unable to put them in both back corners), 2" absorption on the back wall, likely 1-2" absorption on some part of the side walls (definitely including the first reflection points).

Typical quick starting approach:
1) start with floor to ceiling 24" wide front face triangle bass traps in the front corners if you can make that work (google superchunks).
2) put 1-2" thick cloth covered fiberglass panels at the first reflection point on the l/r walls, on the ceiling if you can.
3) Treat the front wall behind/around the speakers.
4) Get your sub out of the corner and away from the wall. Avoid seats on the mid-line of the room (front to back or side to side). Avoid seats against the walls. Mid-line and room edges are the worst spots for room mode issues.

Good luck.

Thank you Paul. This info will come in handy when I get around to building the new house. It also helps me to understand some more of the basics which will help me to start to "get" what some of these other people are talking about. Sometimes us new people just need a little help to get started.

I've also got to learn about speakers, amps and subs. Sooooo much to learn.

greg:

As you begin your learning process, keep in mind that speakers, their placement, and room treatment will have the greatest influence on the final sound quality. The quality of the source is second and electronics a distant third.

My concern is the width to length ratio of your proposed room. IMO, it is too narrow to accomodate 3 rows of seating, unless the chairs are not that deep and you cut out leg room. One pair of surrounds is not adequate to cover the 3 rows. You might need 2 pairs but still in 5.1 config. Consider bipole surrounds for greater dispersion. Otherwise, the front row would sound too front-heavy , 3rd row too surround-heavy. By comparison, my room is 16x26 and i have 2 rows of 5. I'd only consider the center six seats to be any good.

greg:

As you begin your learning process, keep in mind that speakers, their placement, and room treatment will have the greatest influence on the final sound quality. The quality of the source is second and electronics a distant third.

I understand that but that part of the equation will also have to be addressed. I've found out that at least my sub will have to be upgraded.

My concern is the width to length ratio of your proposed room. IMO, it is too narrow to accomodate 3 rows of seating, unless the chairs are not that deep and you cut out leg room.

I don't understand your point here. How can it be too narrow and what does the width have to do with how many rows I can fit comfortably? I want to keep the viewing positions within the "cone" of my high power screen. That's why it will be on the narrow side but long.

One pair of surrounds is not adequate to cover the 3 rows. You might need 2 pairs but still in 5.1 config. Consider bipole surrounds for greater dispersion. Otherwise, the front row would sound too front-heavy , 3rd row too surround-heavy. By comparison, my room is 16x26 and i have 2 rows of 5. I'd only consider the center six seats to be any good.

I've got an older set of BA's that I described in my first post. The surround speakers are the VRS Micros which have two drivers that throw the sound to the front and back. I was wondering if I might need a second set.

I was thinking of building (or buying if building proves to be too difficult) a new set of front speakers and center speaker. I was then going to use the surrounds that I have and use my current front speakers as rear speakers. I can always pick up another set of surrounds on ebay that match the ones I have.

Why 5.1 and not 7.1?

How can it be too narrow and what does the width have to do with how many rows I can fit comfortably?

let's say you put your surrounds beside the middle row........and if you sit in the front row.......the narrower the room, the more the surrounds will be behind you. If you had a really wide room, it would seem more like beside you. It has everything to do with the angle from your seat to the surround speaker. If you sat in the 3rd row, all the speakers will be in front of you and there would be little surround experience.

Okay then........what if you put the surround speakers behind the third row?

if you calibrate each channel volume levels from the center seats, then those in the back would hear the surrounds as louder than the fronts and those in the front row would experience the opposite. Is that enough to be distracting? Probably. If your seats are small and you pack them tight, the difference would be smaller. But, if you like big cushy recliners and lots of legroom, and there's a 10 ft difference between 1st and 3rd row, then yes, it'll be annoying.

it's not the width of the room that is the problem. It's trying to deliver equal surround material to the three rows that is hard. The same problem exists in the horizontal direction too, if one parks a seat too close to a wall. The guy on the end hears too much from the nearest surround. It's a balance between good sound for a fewer people, or worst sound for more. Only you and your family can decide where to draw that line.


Why 5.1 and not 7.1?

With all due respect, let's try to get good 5.1 performance first.

let's say you put your surrounds beside the middle row........and if you sit in the front row.......the narrower the room, the more the surrounds will be behind you. If you had a really wide room, it would seem more like beside you. It has everything to do with the angle from your seat to the surround speaker. If you sat in the 3rd row, all the speakers will be in front of you and there would be little surround experience.

Okay then........what if you put the surround speakers behind the third row?

if you calibrate each channel volume levels from the center seats, then those in the back would hear the surrounds as louder than the fronts and those in the front row would experience the opposite. Is that enough to be distracting? Probably. If your seats are small and you pack them tight, the difference would be smaller. But, if you like big cushy recliners and lots of legroom, and there's a 10 ft difference between 1st and 3rd row, then yes, it'll be annoying.

it's not the width of the room that is the problem. It's trying to deliver equal surround material to the three rows that is hard. The same problem exists in the horizontal direction too, if one parks a seat too close to a wall. The guy on the end hears too much from the nearest surround. It's a balance between good sound for a fewer people, or worst sound for more. Only you and your family can decide where to draw that line.

I see what you're saying. Wouldn't a second set of surrounds help reduce that problem? I could use a 2nd set that matches my current surround speakers with one set at the front row and one set at the third row. Since the drivers aren't directed at the listener shouldn't this help?

With all due respect, let's try to get good 5.1 performance first.
No. Since this is for a new project that is 2 years from completion and is at the design stage now I am not looking for 5.1 first and then 7.1. I have time to get a plan for a decent set-up. It doesn't have to be perfect but I've got time to get it good. Your comments are very helpful, thank you.

Wouldn't a second set of surrounds help reduce that problem?
A second set of surrounds are great; however, you will have some challenges which are best resolved with some professional assistance and calibration.

You are creating a side array. The second set of surrounds will need their own amplification and you'll need the ability to set the delays and SPL of each of your surrounds separately. This additional equipment is not expensive; but, the knowlege to set it up correctly can be a bit daunting for a first timer. I'd say go for it but engage an HAA Level II calibrator to work with you on it.