steve...you should have no problem.

The bass on the Sierras will be better than the bass from the Kenwood sub.....but it also depends on what you like or are used to.

With my older Onkyo (forget which one it is), when I re-calibrated my sound levels with the Sierra-1's, I had to bump my levels to +8 from their prior setting of +0 (+2 in one case) to get back up to the test tone reference level. I receive my Onkyo 805 tomorrow which should have a bit more horsepower. I'll be curious if the Sierra's require an equal amount of boost over my other speakers.
It should be the same relative to the other speakers.

The normal sensitivity rating is anechoic. In room is... I don't know what it is but it isn't normalized... Some companies add 2dB, others 4, others 3, I don't think it's a 'real' measurement, more just a stat to boost the specs, "they're 85dB but in room they're 89dB! Only 1dB less than 90, they're not that bad!". Maybe some can chime in, but I never really give any importance to in room, only anechoic. Rooms vary, so does that rating it seems...

Hi Guys,

Good discussion. We calculate anechoic sensitivity based on the 1 meter anechoic frequency response, normalized to 1 watt input. SPL is then based on the average sensitivity from 300Hz to 3 kHz. Because this measurement is based on anechoic frequency response, other "noises" produced by the speaker (cabinet resonance, various electrical and mechanical distortions etc.) and produced be the room (reflections etc.) are not included in the measurement.

We calculate in-room sensitivity by placing a calibrated SPL meter 1 meter from the speaker. The speaker is placed in our sound-room (not testing chamber) 2 feet from the wall behind it. The speaker is then fed a 1 watt white-noise signal and the resulting reading is our in-room sensitivity figure.

Based on these methods, there are many reasons why the difference between anechoic and in-room sensitivity will differ from 1 model loudspeaker to another, even when taken in the same room and same exact position.

1. One obvious reason is that anechoic sensitivity is based on the frequency range from 300Hz to 3 kHz (NRC standards). One speaker might have 4-5 dB more output than another in a frequency range located outside of this calculation. This speaker will certainly sound louder at the same voltage drive compared to another that does not have this boost even though anechoic sensitivity between the two might be the same.

2. Various distortions (both electrical and mechanical) can make a loudspeaker sound "louder" than it truly is. This will not show up in the anechoic sensitivity measurement but will reveal itself for in-room sensitivity measurements.

3. Off-axis response... Compare a loudspeaker with extremely limited off-axis response to one with very wide off-axis response. They might both have the same anechoic sensitivity (since the measurement only looks at the direct-sound output [on-axis, no reflections]) but in-room sensitivity might be considerably different between the two. The speaker with wide dispersion will most certainly produce higher spl at the same voltage drive since in-room sensitivity includes both direct-sound and indirect-sound (reflections off walls).

4. Physical size and # of drivers can also cause variances. For example, a floor standing speaker with a woofer close to the floor will exhibit bass reinforcement which will be revealed for in-room sensitivity measurements, while this additional output will not be reflected in anechoic sensitivity measurements.

I am sure I am missing a few but this should be enough to help explain differences.

From my experience, I would not trust in-room sensitivity measurements that simply add a set amount of "dB" to the anechoic sensitivity reading, it is far more complex.

There are really no set standards for any of this which makes it very difficult to compare specs from one manufacturer to another. We try to be as honest and consistent as possible with our specs and measurements but, unfortunately, other manufacturers may not, so never purchase a loudspeaker based on specs alone. I am often shocked at how some manufacturers embellish specifications. Use our specs and measurements to compare one model in our line-up to another, or use a resource like Stereophile or Soundstage (measurements that are taken at the NRC and are brutally honest) to compare specs between different models from different manufacturers.

Hope this helps!

d

I have had MY Sierras a couple of days and have only had the chance to play about 7 hours worth of concert videos...Do they deliver?? Yes Do they get loud enough for me?? Yes. I had to bump up +3 across my front to match my 170s in the rear. I feed them with an Outlaw pre/pro, a Parasound 1205 and an Oppo. Punchy they are! The Sierras are crossed over at 60Hz. The bamboo cabinets are gorgeous! I will let them break in before I give serious impressions of the sound, but what I have heard so far seems to be true of what has been written about them already. :D
Thanx again Dave, for all the blood sweat and tears that you put into these gems!

Thanks for the explanation for room sensitivity :)

I received my piano black B-Stock this past weekend. I think there was an error because they don't appear to be b-stock :p Some very light scratches (looked it up with a LED flashlight), but really, for 100$ off I'm actually glad they were b-stock! (anyone wants to see pics?) The finish is really gorgeous, built seems impeccable!

Not much listening time so far and they're far from being broken in (maybe they have 5 hours on them), but imho, they do somehow suffer from diminishing return, but they definitely seem to improve on the 340SE. Obvious improvement areas are bass, imaging, and they seem to also improve resolution, albeit not as evidently as the bass & imaging, somewhat slight improvement so far (maybe more after break in), I'm guessing this is where the diminishing return kicks in, bass & imaging can be 'easily' improved from 340SE, but resolution is already very good on the 340SE, so maybe a bit less room for improvement there.

Imaging on the 340SE was good, but not really to the level of other excellent imaging speakers (Totem Arros for example), the Sierras really up it up a notch, and really have more precise imaging, and wider, deeper soundstage than the 340SE (maybe one of 340SE weakness if you were to be very severe). The Sierras also seem to have better focus; instruments are more 'precise' in space.

Bass is the other very evident improvement so far, very tight, punchy and goes pretty low. So far I have then on their own (had the 340SE with a 12 inch sealed DIY sub), and they definitely have enough low end to play on their own for pretty much 99% of music. Definitely go low enough to my taste to stand alone. Maybe a bit of issues with my room, as I seemed to have some issues with sub around 80ish hz, maybe some more room treatment/placement would be in order.

Resolution, I haven't done an A/B with the 340SE, but they seem to improve resolution, somehow able to go dig out an extra layer of detail. Not the most detailed system I've heard, but then again it's driven with a QSC1450 pro amp, NAD 541i & Behringer DEQ2496 PRE/EQ/DAC (1000$ total), where the more detailed systems I've heard were on 5000-50000$ worth of electronics... So I'd probably see an improvement when driven with top quality stuff instead of the rather budget components I'm using. Still, definitely excellent detail/resolution, and we're talking <1000$ speakers, not 2500, 5000 or 25000$ like others :rolleyes: :eek:

Nevertheless, definite improvement over the 340SE in pretty much all fields. One of the 'weird' thing, they seem to be able to somehow resolve up/down soundstage... :confused: Sometimes it seems like some sounds can appear above the speakers!

Some say things like "It's definitely a Totem" about a new Totem speaker for example.. Well this is definitely an Ascend :) Very well balanced sound (neutral), very very good resolution/detail, at a very reasonable price! 760$US for (b-stock) piano black? Almost ridiculous.. Killer performance/price ratio, actually cost me almost as much as the 340SE + stands cost me (due to cdn/USA exchange & shipping), I could never find a piano black speaker around here <1000$, and finding one with as good sound on top would be a very challenging and probably expensive task around here...

No sub, for 2ch music, I say the Sierras are easily a better choice than 340SE. With sub, for HT, it becomes a tougher choice, as I don't think most could tell the difference while watching a movie (and not specifically listening to speakers) as the 340SE are already excellent. If you already have a good sub, the Sierra bass advantage somewhat get reduced importance, and the 340SE upper registers are already really good so both are good choices, I guess it would depend on amplification, budget & style. Well maybe as some have said, maybe a bit clearer dialog for HT... Not sure many non-audio oriented people would notice... Not because there's not a difference to be heard, because they'd listen to the movie, and not the speakers, and the 340SE are also very good at resolving details.

If you really want improved bass and/or imaging/soundstage, I'd say it's worth it, detail/resolution, it seems to improve slightly on my system & in my room, but not drastically, but maybe with better electronics the difference would become more evident, or maybe after break in... There seems to be a difference, but there's not a world of a difference so far, but I think we're at a point where diminishing returns kick in, where adding a lot of $$$ only improves things slightly in that area.


Probably more to come after more listening/breakin, but so far sooooo good! :D

Thanks for the write up Grandarf.
My pair is coming in this friday and can't wait!
Your impressions are about what I expected from the sierras. :)

Grandarf - your thorough evaluation pretty much sums up what James at Ascend told me w/ regards to the two speakers. He felt if you're using the speakers primarily for HT/movies, the CMT would serve the purpose just fine and suggested that I look into the Sierra if listening to music was a more important variable.

I, too, bought the piano black Sierra's across the front as "B-Stock." I couldn't find any flaws either although I didn't go through it in great depth. I told Dave he could have sold them as A-Stock and I wouldn't have blinked. To me, that says a lot about him and the company.

Quick update...just received my replacement pair from Ascend this afternoon. In a word, they are simply flawless. I've been enjoying my first pair of Sierras a little bit more now that school (on the instruction end) is out, but I've still got one more 8-hour session of School Law on Tuesday that is effectively consuming all of my time right now...who likes to read Supreme Court case law? Not me.

Anyways, I was happy that Dave was very eager to replace the pair at no cost, and I'm delighted to say that he called me this afternoon just to make sure that the replacement pair was to my liking. We had a nice chat, I congratulated him on an excellent product (and told him to take a break at his earliest convenience), and thanked him for personally taking care of the situation. It's not everyday that you get a call on your cell phone from the owner of the company on the other side of the country making sure that you're happy with what you purchased...:)

Kudos to Ascend and to Dave in particular! In an age of dying customer service, they have stepped up and delivered.

Looking forward to more listening over the next few days...

J.

Can the sierra be played fairly loud on a denon 1707 75wpc with good sound quality?

Can the sierra be played fairly loud on a denon 1707 75wpc with good sound quality?
I would think it would be fine.

How large is the room and how loud is loud?

about 12by13, listening to pop not metal rock just want to hear loud vocals, enough but not ear deafening levels.

You'll be fine with the Denon and the Sierra.
I run them on a 75W/channel receiver in a 20x14 room and they get plenty loud enough before my receiver runs out of juice.


Mitch

...they get plenty loud enough before my receiver runs out of juice...
Best not to run them loud enough to find out. You're likely to damage your receiver and speakers if you're running out of juice! :eek:

J.

Best not to run them loud enough to find out. You're likely to damage your receiver and speakers if you're running out of juice! :eek:

J.

I agree 100%. My point was that in my room, I'm not even close that point and they are loud enough. In other words, their 86db (or whatever) sensitivity shouldn't scare away someone with a 75W/channel receiver.


Mitch

How about 5 Sierras and sub and a Sherwood Newcastle R-771 (100 Watts per Channel, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 8 ohms, w/ <0.2% THD ) in a room of 17.5 x 11.5 x 8.2 with a loudness level not too high, it is an apt. condo. Would that be a good AVR with power to spare?

More than enough.

Thanks. I have a two more questions.

The Sierra front speakers will be sitting on 24" high credenza.
For the back speakers, I seem to recall they should be higher.

If so, are 30" high speaker stands good?
If not, I can get 23" high instead.

The Sierras are W 7.5" X D 10.5"
Would a top plate of 6" x 6" be good?

Yes, that top plate size is just fine.

Hey everyone,

My sierras are on order and will hopefully be shipped in a week or so. My question is in regards to placement of them close to a wall. My current 340SE's are about a foot or so out from the wall, whats the minimum the new sierras can be placed from the wall? I ask because someday they may be placed in a shelf and not freestanding like my current setup.

Thanks guys,

Brandon

anyone compared a harman kardon and denon receiver of similar price range on the ascend speakers? any sq differences?

Hey everyone,

My sierras are on order and will hopefully be shipped in a week or so. My question is in regards to placement of them close to a wall. My current 340SE's are about a foot or so out from the wall, whats the minimum the new sierras can be placed from the wall? I ask because someday they may be placed in a shelf and not freestanding like my current setup.

Thanks guys,

Brandon

Curtis can probably answer this better than I, but I'll give it a shot.
The "minimum the sierras can be placed from the wall" depends on how important the sound quality is to you.
NO speaker should be right against a wall but esspecially speakers with rear firing ports need room to breath.
If I had to guess, I would say that you would want them to be at least 8" from the wall but closer to 2' would be better. Just get them as far away as you can in your listening environment. ;)

Thanks for the reply. Now if i were to place them close to a wall, being rear ported, will just the bass be negatively affected and nothing else right? Just pondering options for the future.

Can't wait to hear them......anyone want any 340Se's ;)

Thanks again,
Brandon

The closer to the wall the more the bass will be reinforced. You may or may not like the results. The bass should be more accurate a bit away from the wall.

But the midrange will probably also be affected. I speaker too close to any wall can(and probably will) muddy up your midrange. That would actually be the bigger problem out of the 2 in my opinion(for me anyway).

I typed "speaker placement" in google and this along with some other stuff came up:

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/speakerplacement.html

Very informative, thanks tanaka.

I better keep the new sierra's away from those pesky walls.

Brandon

anyone compared a harman kardon and denon receiver of similar price range on the ascend speakers? any sq differences?

I compared HK and Panny. I liked HK by a wide margin. Have not compared Denon but read some posts from a forum member where he preferred HK 247 to his Denon 2803.

I compared HK and Panny. I liked HK by a wide margin. Have not compared Denon but read some posts from a forum member where he preferred HK 247 to his Denon 2803.

Does HK yet have a receiver out that has HDMI 1.3, and that can handle the new audio codices of BluRay and HD DVD?

Does HK yet have a receiver out that has HDMI 1.3, and that can handle the new audio codices of BluRay and HD DVD?

Nope. It's 1.2.
I thought 1.3 had nothing to do with audio format. It's suppose to support Deep Colors. I don't know whether it will pass thru the Video signals from 1.3 source to 1.3 display.

Rcvd confirmation of the shipment of my Sierra L/C/R with pair of 170SE for rears,
The sub remains a tba for now.
can't stand the wait.......
sigh...
thinking of that first the playlist::
Audio song:
Clapton - Stepping Out - ]ohn Mayall's Bluesbreakers with Eric Clapton:: track 11
Audio Albums:
Stones-Beggars Banquet (SACD)
Bruebeck-Time Out (SACD)
James Hunter (CD)
Coltrane-Blue Trane (SACD)
Stones-Let It Bleed (SACD)

Video:
Concert for George
Crossroads Festival

Movies:
Riddick
Sixth Elemnent

That should take up the first few hours, er better make that days

system
speakers as listed above
Denon 987
Oppo 981
Pioneer 1140-HD

Anyone know how long does UPS ground take to go CA to NYC?
sigh
L8er

Expect about 3 days...but they're worth the wait! Nice selection to throw at them.

J.

J__C__

Thanks. expected that.
and thanks for the comment re the play list...

a note that I forgot to add two other videos to the list
John Mayall's 70th Birthday Concert
and
Cream Reunion at Royal Albert Hall
I need to hear this set many many times
as this was also the set they played when I sat the last show
at the MSGarden in 2005
(also saw the GoodBye concert at the old Garden in 1968).

L8er
FSM

Wow these look nice (just received mine). If you can tell the difference between B and A stock, you either have way too much high power lighting or way too much time to look for imperfections. They look fabulous, When I complete my set, I'll definately be ordering more B-stock. (Black, BTW.)

Wow these look nice (just received mine). If you can tell the difference between B and A stock, you either have way too much high power lighting or way too much time to look for imperfections. They look fabulous, When I complete my set, I'll definately be ordering more B-stock. (Black, BTW.)

How do they sound?

Anybody interested in splitting the cost for materials for matching bamboo stands? I found a supplier in Richmond, VA and I'll be about 2 hrs away from there at the end of July. I'm looking at solid 3/4" edge grain (1/4" strips) panels that seemingly perfectly match the Sierras. I haven't come up with a final design yet, but it will probably be a bit smaller than the footprint of the Sierras with a slightly larger top plate to match the footprint and a larger base plate with threaded inserts for carpet spikes or other standard footings. I'll put in internal cross bracing and make them fillable with removable tops. The finish will be a semi-gloss acrylic, probably 5-6 coats depending on how thirsty the bamboo is...I've not had the pleasure of working with it yet. At any rate, shipping is a beast (at 100+pounds per panel), so I'll trek down there and pick it up and figured if others were interested, either in the raw materials or possibly stands I'd offer. The panels go for $215 for a 3/4" x 4' x 8' panel for the solid edge grain panel and $205 for the 3-ply 3/4" x 4' x 8' which has a 1/8" veneer. For the difference in cost, I'm looking at the solid, but the ply will probably be more stable over the long term. However, with the cross-bracing and multiple coats of acrylic and figuring that most stands will probably be 32" or less in height, I don't think that stability will be much of an issue.

PM me or email to vikingdwarf@gmail.com if interested. There's not a volume discount, but shipping is a pig, so if you'd like some let me know.

Thanks,

J.

How do they sound?


I wish I knew, Emotiva screwed up my order and sent me the wrong unit, so I have to wait for the new unit to arrive.

I compared HK and Panny. I liked HK by a wide margin. Have not compared Denon but read some posts from a forum member where he preferred HK 247 to his Denon 2803.

Cool, what about a cambridge 540a and a similarly priced harman kardon? anyone compared?

i have a yamaha htr-5960 at the moment and the sound is incredible, would it be even better with a harman kardon avr-247 or cambridge 540a?

Hey, another socal member! Welcome to the club! Do you have a sub?

oh nevermind, I see you have the F113, haha, awesome! I have the F112.

I got a chance to compare a yamaha 5960 to a harman kardon avr146, it seemed as if the vocals of the yamaha were a bit stronger.

anyone compared maybe a cambridge 340/540 to a normal 500 dollar receiver?

I think that, particularly with today's AVRs, it's really difficult to do an accurate side-by-side comparison. There are so many variables and settings that, unless you really take the time to set them both up as close as possible, comparisons don't make a whole lot of sense. You can compare specs and numbers and connection options and set-up features etc, but unless you've really taken the time to try to set them up identically it's not a good comparison.

J.

I am on a mission right now to find a more "cost efficient (my wife's words, not mine) home theater setup. I am going to have to ditch what I have now (all but the mains which will be kept for 2-channel music listening) in favor of something cheaper and more pleasing to my wife (they always ruin everything...haha, just kidding). So now I am looking to spend around $2500 or so for the entire shebang, including receiver. I am all for separates, of which I will use for the two-channel system, but I think I am going to have to use a regular receiver this time around, per the wife's budget restraint. So for now, I will pick up the Pioneer 1016TXV but am still demoing speakers. There is a long list of bookshelf speakers that I want to audition. And so, the journey now begins!

So far I will be attempting to get my hands on:
NHT classic 3's, the new Ascend Sierra's, Paradigm studio 20's, Onix xl-s (been a long time since I heard them), etc, etc.

Now I know this is the owner's thread and that someone already got yelled at for asking for comparisons, but what better place to do that? So, could the owners (or those who have listened to them) compare them to some of the above candidates and/or other candidates in a similar price range (800/pair)?

Thanks!

Nuance, I have heard all of them (not the latest version of the Studio 20 though), and of course, own the Sierras.

Rather than posting anything that can cause bad blood or can be construed as hype, I strongly suggest you get a pair and have a good listen for yourself.

Now I know this is the owner's thread and that someone already got yelled at for asking for comparisons, but what better place to do that?I'd say a comparo thread where the blood can flow unencumbered (until lockdown).

Nuance, read the Sierra threads on Ascends forum . . . :)

I'd say a comparo thread where the blood can flow unencumbered (until lockdown).
Give me a break...! What are you, the comparison Nazi? "No comparison for you!" You don't even own the Sierras, so give it a rest...please.

J.

Give me a break...! What are you, the comparison Nazi? "No comparison for you!" You don't even own the Sierras, so give it a rest...please.

J.
Jason...I think Tony was just being funny. He was at my house a few weeks ago for a visit and listen.

The threads here at AVS are crazy, and some people have issues with some brands because it is not their own. I just got reported to David Bott for "marketing" because I suggested Sierras in another thread....it is just nuts.

Curtis-

I understand that issue completely and agree that it is nuts. People get fanatical about what they have and feel the need to fight tooth-and-nail to promote it. However, the poster asked a simple question about a comparison between pretty comparable speakers and in his usual fashion, Tony jumps in and tries to squash what would probably be a good conversation to have. For whatever reason, he started this thread...whether he plans to ever purchase Sierras of his own or just remains a "visiting listener" is his prerogative. I don't care either way. However, he doesn't own this thread and I find his repeated attempts to "kill the conversation" ridiculous and unwarranted and just plain irritating.

Comments like... Could we take the comparos to another thread? and Inappropriate thread. This is an Ascend Sierra thread, not a comparison thread. and If the poster wants a comparison, he can start a comparison thread that can get closed. ...just get old.

J.

I believe Tony's intent is to keep this thread from being shutdown as that is what seems to happen to comparison threads.

I believe Tony's intent is to keep this thread from being shutdown as that is what seems to happen to comparison threads.
Thank you.

Jason, sorry to irritate you, but the quickest way to get this thread shut down is to turn it into a comparison thread. Please read David's sticky at the top of this forum. This thread was maybe the third attempt at a Sierra thread: the others were either shut down or deleted. While I don't own Sierras, I do like to read peoples comments about them and would hate to see it all come to an end in a this vs that pissing match.

This isn't a comparison thread, and doesn't have to turn into one just to answer somebody's question. I think that most of the regular contributors to this thread are mature enough to keep things in the road and not let this turn into a pissing match. There's no need for the Gestapo approach...or is it Gazpacho...?

J.

Nuance, I have heard all of them (not the latest version of the Studio 20 though), and of course, own the Sierras.

Rather than posting anything that can cause bad blood or can be construed as hype, I strongly suggest you get a pair and have a good listen for yourself.

Oh that's the plan, I just want an idea of things, that's all.
I'd say a comparo thread where the blood can flow unencumbered (until lockdown).

Point me to a comparo thread, but one without the "blood flow."
Nuance, read the Sierra threads on Ascends forum . . . :)
Will do. I have been out of the loop for six months, so forgive me for not knowing about such threads.

The threads here at AVS are crazy, and some people have issues with some brands because it is not their own. I just got reported to David Bott for "marketing" because I suggested Sierras in another thread....it is just nuts.
That's ridiculous. Wow, how easily I have forgotten how heated this forum is. It's a shame...
This isn't a comparison thread, and doesn't have to turn into one just to answer somebody's question. I think that most of the regular contributors to this thread are mature enough to keep things in the road and not let this turn into a pissing match. There's no need for the Gestapo approach...or is it Gazpacho...?

J.

Agreed. Tonygeno, I assure you my intentions are genuine and are not meant to cause trouble. Like I said, I have been out of the loop and just want to be brought up to speed. I don't want to turn this into a comparison thread - a mere 2 or 3 posts already answered my question (thank you to those who answered me instead of just telling me to piss off). If I am pissing in someone’s pool (unintentionally), I will go somewhere else to find my answers.

Nuance.....you on hiatus when the Sierra-1 was announced......

When Ascend announced the new speaker, a couple of threads popped up, some with comparisons and about what is in the speaker. They turned into pissing matches, some people complained about it being marketing, some people complained that the speaker was not even available yet(it actually shipped less than a week after the announcement). Anyways....those threads got shutdown or deleted entirely.

Tony started this thread so people could post more freely about the speaker, and without the pissing matches that occur with comparisons. I'm glad he did.

There's a big difference between avid listeners comparing high-quality loudspeakers in a constructive conversation and a outright pissing match and we all know it. None of the curious posters that have asked for a comparison did so with intention of derailing or spoiling the thread. And quite frankly, more time has been spent recovering and recoiling than would have been if any of the owners with experience with any of the mentioned speakers chimed in and gave their opinion.

I unfortunately have not had the opportunity to do a side-by-side comparison between the Studio 20's and the Sierras, but I do have the Studio 100's, and while the 100's certainly are fuller in sound and with more power and presence, the Sierras have a smoother and more laid-back sound. The Paradigms seem a bit cleaner in the highs (aluminum tweeter maybe) and dig deeper than the Sierras, but the Sierras pack quite a punch for the size and the price. I've really been enjoying them quite a bit in our 2-channel setup.

There, that didn't hurt, did it?

J.

There, that didn't hurt, did it?

No, no......but you are not the type that complains to the admins and gets things shutdown.....or are you? :) And you actually own the two speakers.

I would call the tweeter more prominent with the Studio 20v3's I have heard.....and yes, more forward overall sound.

No, no......but you are not the type that complains to the admins and gets things shutdown.....or are you? :)
Not me...I didn't tell a soul about our little indiscretion here! Mum's the word...:D

J.

Make sure and send a mass pm to everyone once you guys decide what can and cannot be posted here. Otherwise, people might continue to post whatever pleases them =p.

Nuance.....you on hiatus when the Sierra-1 was announced......

When Ascend announced the new speaker, a couple of threads popped up, some with comparisons and about what is in the speaker. They turned into pissing matches, some people complained about it being marketing, some people complained that the speaker was not even available yet(it actually shipped less than a week after the announcement). Anyways....those threads got shutdown or deleted entirely.

Tony started this thread so people could post more freely about the speaker, and without the pissing matches that occur with comparisons. I'm glad he did.

Okay, understood. I won't ask anymore questions in this thread.

Make sure and send a mass pm to everyone once you guys decide what can and cannot be posted here. Otherwise, people might continue to post whatever pleases them =p.
The problem is it seems like it only take one person to complain and things get shutdown.

So let us live in fear and ignorance...:rolleyes:

No offense, Curtis, but that's a crock of you-know-what... So then let's all just sit around and hold hands and smile at each other and talk about how we like our speakers. It always just takes one person to F things up, but why should that stop the rest of us from having an intelligent conversation? God forbid that we might talk about ...get ready for this...another manufacturers' speaker! :eek:

J.

So let us live in fear and ignorance...:rolleyes:

No offense, Curtis, but that's a crock of you-know-what... So then let's all just sit around and hold hands and smile at each other and talk about how we like our speakers. It always just takes one person to F things up, but why should that stop the rest of us from having an intelligent conversation? God forbid that we might talk about ...get ready for this...another manufacturers' speaker! :eek:

J.
I got it...I know where you are comin' from.

Like I posted earlier....someone complained to David Bott that I recommended Sierras in another thread....said I was marketing.

Jason, you even started a thread that was shutdown:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=849736&highlight=Sierra1

Here's another that was shutdown:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=847672&highlight=Sierra1

Curtis-

I'm not looking to go around and around with you about this. The thread that I started (sarcastically titled, "The Invincible Sierra Thread?") was in response to all of the ridiculous bickering that had shut down the handful of Sierra threads that were started. Even Tony contributed his share of nonsense to get that one shut down, too.

I'll ask you this: What's the point of an owner's thread for speakers? Is it solely a resource for owners? If so, what business does Tony have in policing the thread?

Again, I'm not looking to argue with you. You very valiantly have come to Tony's defense, much more than he has himself.

J.

Oh no...I am not arguing with you at all, and Tony can defend himself. I am just pointing out what has happened in the past.

As much as we want it to be, this forum is not un-censored, posts and patterns are not scrutinized before things get deleted or shutdown.

I honestly feel the Sierra is a gem.....and that some people feel threatened by it. That may sound stupid, but I honestly believe it.

Like it or not guys, these forums are owned by an AV dealer. Threads 'comparing' speakers they don't sell to speakers they sell might not go over too well. :\

Curtis-

You and I agree. It's that simple. I love the Sierras. You love the Sierras. I'll probably even buy another pair. Heck, you'll probably buy another pair, too. We'll sit around on opposite sides of our fair nation listening to music and loving the Sierras. They are a great speaker...I don't think that anybody that has heard the Sierra would argue with that. Figure in the cost and they're a no-brainer.

My beef is with Tony and his incessant policing and controlling of the thread. Nobody here is looking to pee on anybody else's opinion, or speaker for that matter. People are curious what the Sierras sound like...there's certainly a lot of buzz surrounding them. I don't think that it's imprudent to carry on an intelligent conversation that might involve comparing one speaker to another. Unless you're Tony and have the luxury of hearing Jack Bauer's voice or Stevie Ray Vaughn's guitar in person (good luck with that one!) and have that as a point of reference, comparing to other speakers is all that most of us have.

J.

I gotcha.

As for another pair for me.......only if I get over the fear of mounting a pair for surrounds.

Curtis-
Nobody here is looking to pee on anybody else's opinion, or speaker for that matter. People are curious what the Sierras sound like...there's certainly a lot of buzz surrounding them. I don't think that it's imprudent to carry on an intelligent conversation that might involve comparing one speaker to another.

Bingo!

You very valiantly have come to Tony's defense, much more than he has himself.

J.Rather than defend myself from each attack, I find it best just to ignore jerks and move on. Here's hoping we can get back to discussing the Sierra.

I gotcha.

As for another pair for me.......only if I get over the fear of mounting a pair for surrounds.
I'm sure you'll figure out a way to do it, and they'll probably be a little less intrusive than the 170s. I think I'd go black for the rears, although dusting them might be a challenge.

Rather than defend myself from each attack, I find it best just to ignore jerks and move on.
Nobody's attacking you Tony. I was just pointing out how you lash out at everybody that posits a friendly and intelligent "comparo."

J. (apparently stands for Jerk...:p)

I gotcha.

As for another pair for me.......only if I get over the fear of mounting a pair for surrounds.
How are people doing this anyway? At 20lbs each, it's right at the upper limit of the Omnimount 20s, which seemed strained to hold-up the 170SEs that are only 14 lbs. Just curious.

Got me - I wouldn't use Omnimounts for Sierra's. My rear surround 170-SE's definitely are a bit much for the omnimounts when hung from the ceiling. I couldn't get them to be level with the ceiling. They always wanted to angle down a bit - I'm assuming from the metal rod bending! ;)

Thought I'd drop in again...

The more I listen to the sierras that I bought my dad the more I realize how bad some of the recordings are that I listen too.

THIS IS A GOOD THING.

I know it may sound bad but it just shows how ultra clean and detailed these speakers are.
It's really incredible that a speaker can be that much like a monitor in that respect but not lose it's musicality.
My music is also benefitting greatly from the sierras in that all of the music is represented the way that it was intended to be heard. And good recordings are a real joy to listen too.

I'm sure you'll figure out a way to do it, and they'll probably be a little less intrusive than the 170s. I think I'd go black for the rears, although dusting them might be a challenge.
Agreed.

How are people doing this anyway? At 20lbs each, it's right at the upper limit of the Omnimount 20s, which seemed strained to hold-up the 170SEs that are only 14 lbs. Just curious.
The threaded insert on the Sierras are not meant for wall mounting. DaveF suggested using that insert and then putting another wood screw into the cabinet. I just can't bring myself to doing that.....maybe if there was "C" stock or something.

The more I listen to the sierras that I bought my dad.......
You still haven't given them to your dad? :)

since speaker sound is all relative I don't see how you can avoid comparisons, I think we can do it with manners

having said that, has anyone compared these speakers to any type of tower speakers, and if so, what were your impressions?

. . . The threaded insert on the Sierras are not meant for wall mounting. DaveF suggested using that insert and then putting another wood screw into the cabinet. I just can't bring myself to doing that.....maybe if there was "C" stock or something.
Curtis, I use inexpensive TV mounts:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=165971-25653-HVW13-B&lpage=none
which work great unless you need to angle down more than 10 degrees.

No need to drill holes in the speakers (although I do put something between the metal plate and the speaker to avoid scratching the speaker).

BTW, I just got my Sierras yesterday -- it'll be a while before I get enough hours on them to comment seriously, but my initial impressions are 'good clean monitor type sound', 'relatively inefficient', and 'need break in hours'

ggunnell...the link didn't work....and I do need to angle them more than 10 degrees. Oops...nevermind, just needed to enter my zip code.

Relatively inefficient compared to what? What are you using to drive them?

Curtis:

I've had good luck with this mount:

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-VEQFt1DkWoA/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=15830&I=121BT77B&search=mounts

The sides are padded so they don't scratch the speaker, and they hold the speaker snugly allowing fairly severe tilts.

Thanks Tony...I have seen them before. If I use them, I would have to move the surround locations.....not necessarily a bad thing.

I can't recall whether your speakers were attached to the ceiling: those I linked to are wall mountable. They can hold 55 pounds if screwed into a stud and really do a great job.

They are mounted to a ceiling beam. If I use the mount you linked, I would not have enough clearance to the ceiling....so I would have to move the surrounds out farther and mount them to the walls.

You still haven't given them to your dad? :)


Heh,
Actually I have, but I've continued to listen to them at his house.
Unfortunately, they are not set up nearly as properly at his house as they were mine. It just wasn't possible. Its a shame because he's missing out on how trully great these speakers can sound.



dlfromcanada,
I had the sierras set up next to my gallo reference 3.1s. The sierras are cleaner, which translates into more of the details(good and sometimes bad) coming out.
This is not a knock on the gallos though as I have found that the sierras are exceptionally clean and detailed even compared to speakers costing Way more.

. . . Relatively inefficient compared to what? What are you using to drive them?
Not a criticism, Curtis, just an observation based on level settings. IIRC David has commented on the tradoff between bass extension and efficiency. Power is from a Rotel 1095.

Support plate TV mounts are also available for ceiling attachment:
http://www.btech-usa.com/bt553.htm

Not a criticism, Curtis, just an observation based on level settings. IIRC David has commented on the tradoff between bass extension and efficiency. Power is from a Rotel 1095.
I know not a criticism, was just wondering what you were comparing them to....

Compared to rest of the Ascend line...yes, they are less efficient. But to other speakers that are comparable...not really...or even lessor ones.

Nonetheless, that 1095 shouldn't have any issues....that's a nice amp.

You can win a pair of Sierras and help a good cause:

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?p=24054#post24054

Probably everyone in this thread knows more about speakers that I do, so for the common man like me (from a speaker knowledge point of few), but has money to buy nice speakers and likes great sound, answer this question for me:

Why should I believe a speaker (Sierra 1) made by the same company is better and deserving of higher cost than another speaker which was designed less than a year ago (340SE), if the former speaker (Sierra) is:

1. Smaller dimensions (usually larger speakers cost more within the same company), 2. Has a smaller woofer (5 1/4" compared to 6 1/2"), 3. Has only one woofer (Sierra) instead of two (340SE) 4. Has a smaller tweeter (26 vs 27mm)(made by the same company, SEAS) 5. Has 5db! lower sensitivity ( all things being equal, higher sensitivity is better I understand).

So, its like the specs that us common folk understand all took a step backwards!

If the bamboo casing is the trick, then heck, lets make a bamboo piano black 340SE!

The difference between the Sierra and the 340 is in quality not quantity. Pretty much all of the specs you are looking at, size of drivers, number of drivers, cabinet size, etc.. have to do with quantity of sound, ie volume.

Everything in the Sierra, from the cabinet to the drivers to the crossover are of higher quality than the 340SE, thus producing higher quality sound, ie more details, more precise imaging, better soundstage, etc...

In the end, the 340SE may have a little higher output capability and is certainly still a fantastic speaker for the money, but the Sierra is definitely worth it if you're looking for even better sound quality.

One does wonder, however, what a 340SE in a bamboo cabinet would sound like.

I owned the 340s, and own the Sierras. cschang and I did a direct comparison between the two.

Both are great speakers. I would say the price differences are logical. Remember that a mythical price vs. quality curve is not a straight line--a speaker costing twice as much will not sound twice as good. In other words, a natural finish Sierra is not 40% better than the 340SE ($568/pair vs. $800/pair--correct math if necessary).

There is way more to speaker design than meets the eye.
You may assume that a 2 way speaker design like devore fidelity makes(and others) would automatically be inferior to 3 way designs but I can tell you that they beat many speakers with 3 way designs.
More woofers, bigger size, etc, does not neccesarilly mean "better".







Probably everyone in this thread knows more about speakers that I do, so for the common man like me (from a speaker knowledge point of few), but has money to buy nice speakers and likes great sound, answer this question for me:

Why should I believe a speaker (Sierra 1) made by the same company is better and deserving of higher cost than another speaker which was designed less than a year ago (340SE), if the former speaker (Sierra) is:

1. Smaller dimensions (usually larger speakers cost more within the same company), 2. Has a smaller woofer (5 1/4" compared to 6 1/2"), 3. Has only one woofer (Sierra) instead of two (340SE) 4. Has a smaller tweeter (26 vs 27mm)(made by the same company, SEAS) 5. Has 5db! lower sensitivity ( all things being equal, higher sensitivity is better I understand).

So, its like the specs that us common folk understand all took a step backwards!

If the bamboo casing is the trick, then heck, lets make a bamboo piano black 340SE!

Remember that a mythical price vs. quality curve is not a straight line--
It is surprisingly close if you're picky or wealthy.

Just a quick update...love these damn speakers! My brother is in town from DC and we've been camping out in the office at the end of the night for the last couple of days spinning our fave tunes on a temporary Denon 3803 2-channel/no-sub Sierra 1 setup and it has been fantastic. A lot of nostalgic favorites like Aja and Animals and some old Zep and Hendrix, but also a lot of newer discs like Built to Spill and Modest Mouse and Doves, etc. I'm endlessly amazed by the low-end extension of these speakers. Funny story...we went out to play golf this morning and my (our) dad came over to watch my 2-yr old son and I showed him the speakers and he was floored by their beauty first, the sound second, and then the density and inertness of the cabinet. It's not the ideal setup for right now, but until I build those bamboo stands and get the Pio Elite AVR/CD rig setup, this is a nice-sounding cheap temp.

J.

I have a pair of Kef RDM3's http://www.kef.com/history/1990_2/rdmthree.asp
with a Kef 100 center.
Would the Sierra's be a good match if I used them for rears for SACD and DVD-A listening?

There is way more to speaker design than meets the eye.
You may assume that a 2 way speaker design like devore fidelity makes(and others) would automatically be inferior to 3 way designs but I can tell you that they beat many speakers with 3 way designs.
More woofers, bigger size, etc, does not neccesarilly mean "better".

If we were talking about different speaker companies, or at least a different engineer who designed them, then of course I'd agree with this. Please note I clarified this originally. It could be argued the 340SE is the newer speaker since David admitted the Sierra's have been in development for 4 years.

Both are great speakers. I would say the price differences are logical. Remember that a mythical price vs. quality curve is not a straight line--a speaker costing twice as much will not sound twice as good. In other words, a natural finish Sierra is not 40% better than the 340SE ($568/pair vs. $800/pair--correct math if necessary).

I agree, and what makes matters worse is when you have to liquidate the former that you already own, raising that percentage even higher.

Anybody tried a cambridge 540a/640a or maybe an onkyo a-9555 amp on these speakers? I have listened to a pioneer elite 82 on these, very warm. however are there better alternatives for more detailed, clearer vocals, more musical?

Anybody tried a cambridge 540a/640a or maybe an onkyo a-9555 amp on these speakers? I have listened to a pioneer elite 82 on these, very warm. however are there better alternatives for more detailed, clearer vocals, more musical?
Interesting. Are you using the Pioneer's auto EQ system?

I just swapped out the Denon 3803, which I had purchased for a friend, and put in a 55txi/45a combo. I haven't run the MCACC yet, but it sounds fantastic already. A bit more dynamic than the Denon 3803/2200 combo and more powerful, or so it seems. Again, I hadn't taken the time to fully set up either rig, so this may be just a matter of previous settings. I'll chime in further once I have the Pio rig fully set up.

J.

I am upgrading my home theater with the new Pioneer Elite 60" and most likely an Onkyo 905. Currently, I have 170's across the front and HTM-200's for my rears. I am thinking about switching to a 7.1 and using Sierra's across the front. the 170's as my rears and the HTM-200's as my rear center right and left. Do you think this would work well?

I still haven't decided whether I am going to switch to 7.1, so if it would be better just to use Sierra's up front and 170's in the back, please let me know your thoughts on that as well.

Thanks

Tallen, I think you should use all 170's in the rear and sell me your HTM-200's.

Just kidding. I think it will be fine. I'm currently running 340s across the front with 200's as surrounds and a pair of Cambridge Newton tripoles for rear surrounds. I've been trying to get my hands on another pair of HTM-200's to replace the Newtons, but they're not very easy to come by in the used market place.

I am in the middle of auditioning three Sierra-1 and two CBM-170-SE speakers.
Simply amazing!
But the wife says no to the CBMs in the listening space.
May end up using the CBMs in another room.

Any suggestions for surround speakers that are small,
AND will work well with the three Sierras?

Thanks

Two more Sierras?

I am in the middle of auditioning three Sierra-1 and two CBM-170-SE speakers.
Simply amazing!
But the wife says no to the CBMs in the listening space.
May end up using the CBMs in another room.

Any suggestions for surround speakers that are small,
AND will work well with the three Sierras?

Thanks

HTM-200's

HTM-200's

Ditto. I'm using the same combination and happy with it.

I think we need to stop comparing the Sierra's to other Ascend Acoustic speakers, which are very good speakers in their own right, and start comparing them to the best speakers you can buy!
I've done two A/B comparsions, so far (many more to come),
First comparsion was against my beloved DefTech Mythos STs,
the Sierra's won out, surprisingly, with their pure, clean mid-bass, making the STs sound a little slow and muddy.
Second comparsion was against my Usher 520s bookshelf speakers,
the Sierra's won easily, in all aspects... they made the 520's sound horrible (veiled, weak and thin).
A local friend of mine is bringing by his Aerial 5B's this weekend for another A/B comparsion and another local friend is bringing by his NHT M6's for comparsion.
I also have a pair of Usher CP-777, a rather large stand mount speaker, which I'll get involved with this ongoing Sierra shootout :D

BTW, I put my SMS-1 to the Sierra's this afternoon and the results were amazing.
I got bass response (not much mind you) below 20hz, output really starting picking up around 22hz, peaked at 35hz, dropped a few db at 40hz and remained relatively flat to 200hz............. just amazing for a speaker this size. (My STs don't measure that much output that low and they are huge and have a built-in sub woofer!) An amazing speaker for sure!

dc

IA local friend of mine is bringing by his Aerial 5B's this weekend for another A/B comparsion and another local friend is bringing by his NHT M6's for comparsion.
Not sure if you're A/Bing the speakers with sub, but the NHT is specifically made to work with a sub: output rolls off at 60 and NHT recommends crossing them over at 80.

Not sure if you're A/Bing the speakers with sub, but the NHT is specifically made to work with a sub: output rolls off at 60 and NHT recommends crossing them over at 80.
We are NOT using a sub and yes you're right about the M6 rolling off. We're only using them in this comparsion because they're here. We'll obviously take that into consideration while A/Bing.

Does anybody have an interesting comparsion rival for the Sierra's?

We are NOT using a sub and yes you're right about the M6 rolling off. We'll obviously take that into consideration while A/Bing.

Does anybody have an interesting comparsion rivals for the Sierra's?How are you going to "take it into consideration"?

The frequency balance will be skewed with any source material that contains bass, and the Sierra will sound fuller, and better.

Re interesting comparisons, I'd like to see a comparison between the Sierras and Outlaw Bookshelves. Also, Onix Ref 1s.

Does anybody have an interesting comparsion rival for the Sierra's?

dc,

I would like to compare the Sierra's to my Dynaudio Focus 140s. I might see if I could get a pair of Piano Black in B-stock.

Bill

Re interesting comparisons, I'd like to see a comparison between the Sierras and Outlaw Bookshelves. Also, Onix Ref 1s.

Tony,

A comparison between the Ref 1s and the Sierras would interest me as well. I had a pair of Ref 1s and 1.8s but like the 140s over both Refs. I see you are near the Cape I will be going to Marstons Mills tonight for a long weekend, weather looks good :).

Bill

Weather's supposed to be very nice this weekend. Enjoy.

dc,

I would like to compare the Sierra's to my Dynaudio Focus 140s. I might see if I could get a pair of Piano Black in B-stock.

Bill
I did that at a local shop about two weeks ago, along with the B&W 805S. Fairly different presentations...I'd be interested in what you think.

Tony,

A comparison between the Ref 1s and the Sierras would interest me as well. I had a pair of Ref 1s and 1.8s but like the 140s over both Refs. I see you are near the Cape I will be going to Marstons Mills tonight for a long weekend, weather looks good :).

Bill
I've already owned the Ref 1s but sent them back.
The Ref 1s when pushed a bit displayed too much port noise.
On the other hand I haven't been able to get any port noise from the Sierra's.
Very impressive!
I'm sure the Sierra's will faulter at some point, it's just a matter of how and will that fault be something I can live with. Port noise I can't live with :)
The Dynaudio's is a great suggestion, we'll have to look into it.
I've also owned the B&W 805's, original version, which, while an excellent speaker, was too bright sounding when pushed for my taste.
We'll also look into the Outlaw bookshelves.

dc

I've already owned the Ref 1s but sent them back.
The Ref 1s when pushed a bit displayed too much port noise.
On the other hand I haven't been able to get any port noise from the Sierra's.
Very impressive!
I'm sure the Sierra's will faulter at some point, it's just a matter of how and will that fault be something I can live with. Port noise I can't live with :)
The Dynaudio's is a great suggestion, we'll have to look into it.
I've also owned the B&W 805's, original version, which, while an excellent speaker, was too bright sounding when pushed for my taste.
We'll also look into the Outlaw bookshelves.

dc

Pretty late to the table but I just picked up some Revel M22's and they seem like great book shelf speakers. Don't know how they would fit your comparisons but would love to hear someone's take on them versus Sierras or Ref 1's or whatever. They retail for a much higher price, but can be had for around $1000.00 and am very curious what other opinions might be.

Thanks

Pretty late to the table but I just picked up some Revel M22's and they seem like great book shelf speakers. Don't know how they would fit your comparisons but would love to hear someone's take on them versus Sierras or Ref 1's or whatever. They retail for a much higher price, but can be had for around $1000.00 and am very curious what other opinions might be.

Thanks
Yes the Revel M22, which I've heard but not owned, would be a great comparsion for the Sierra's. I owned the M20's which were a great little bookshelf, just kind of funny looking :)
I just ordered a pair of the Outlaw Bookshelf speakers!
Really looking forward to hearing them against the Sierra's.... winner stays, loser goes back.
Or if the Outlaws win, since I'm so taken with the Sierra's sound, they may go into another system.

dc

Yes the Revel M22, which I've heard but not owned, would be a great comparsion for the Sierra's. I owned the M20's which were a great little bookshelf, just kind of funny looking :)
I just ordered a pair of the Outlaw Bookshelf speakers!
Really looking forward to hearing them against the Sierra's.... winner stays, loser goes back.
Or if the Outlaws win, since I'm so taken with the Sierra's sound, they may go into another system.

dc

I'm interested in your comparison. Keep us posted.

How are you going to "take it into consideration"?

The frequency balance will be skewed with any source material that contains bass, and the Sierra will sound fuller, and better.

Re interesting comparisons, I'd like to see a comparison between the Sierras and Outlaw Bookshelves. Also, Onix Ref 1s.
Our plan is to set both sets of speakers to small, crossed over at 80hz probably, within my processor, set subwoofer on but turn the sub power switch off.
This way both sets of speakers should be on a level playing field, sort of speak.
After that we'll turn the sub on and listen with the sub.
I don't expect the M6's to compete with the Sierra's but then again I didn't expect the Sierra's to compete with the Mythos STs :)
Spent a few hours today with the Sierra's and Diana Krall's - Girl In The Other Room CD..... it's like I'm listening to this CD for the first time, more like hundreds.
The Sierra's are so damn musical ...............

dc

I don't understand why you would chop them off a 80hz and turn the sub off. The best part of the Sierra's is the bass detail all the way down to 50hz. I listen to all my music with just 2 channel set to large and HT crossed at 60hz which seems perfect. When I compare speakers I always start at full range and go from there.

I don't understand why you would chop them off a 80hz and turn the sub off. The best part of the Sierra's is the bass detail all the way down to 50hz. I listen to all my music with just 2 channel set to large and HT crossed at 60hz which seems perfect. When I compare speakers I always start at full range and go from there.
The idea is to handicap the Sierra's so they better match up against the NHT M6's, which are designed to be used as a T6 with bass modules, which we don't have on hand.
This way we can compare each speakers overall presentation, minus the deep bass.

dc

The idea is to handicap the Sierra's so they better match up against the NHT M6's, which are designed to be used as a T6 with bass modules, which we don't have on hand.
This way we can compare each speakers overall presentation, minus the deep bass.

dc

I understand your reasoning, AS LONG as folks are aware that the Sierra's are being handicapped for this test, I see nothing wrong with it.

These Sierras sound damn good, my neighbors must hate me by now!!

I don't understand why you would chop them off a 80hz and turn the sub off. The best part of the Sierra's is the bass detail all the way down to 50hz. I listen to all my music with just 2 channel set to large and HT crossed at 60hz which seems perfect. When I compare speakers I always start at full range and go from there.
Also the M6's are no where near "full range", they become full range, almost, when you add the the bass modules (B6?) and associated electronics, making them the T6.
In most cases you're right, start full range and go from there.
Getting back to the Sierra's.... these babies keep getting better and better as they "break-in" :) Bass response is getting deeper, staying tight, and the mid-range is opening up even more. As with most speakers the mid-range is where it's at, imho. This is where the Sierra's presentation really leaves the others behind. It's SO clean, powerful and open. Reminds me of the difference between really good headphones and not so good headphones :)

dc

I just picked up a pair of Polk LSI7s that I am going to be comparing to the Sierras.

Look forward to hearing your impressions xcjago.

On with the comparsions.
Today was the Sierra's against the Infinity Prelude MTS Towers (no sub modules just the Towere on the Infinity stands made for them).
This time I put the sub in from the start.
Preludes crossed over at 90hz
Sierra's crossed over at 40hz, this seemed to work best with the Sierra's but still I prefer them full range with no sub.
This was a pretty close call.
The Infinity's have that open, clean midrange, crystal clear highs and with the sub providing the lower frequencies lack of bass was not an issue. They also throw off a huge soundstage with trememdous height, width and depth. The Sierra's held their own here with slightly more depth but not as much height, the Preludes are monsters at this and of course they do stand nearly six feet tall which doesn't hurt.

It's the mid-bass/lower mid-range, in other words the body, where the Sierra's were able to better the Preludes.
Vocals sounded more refine and fuller, again more musical making the Preludes sound a bit empty by comparsion.
Bass lines were much easier to follow, piano richer sounding, percussion instruments sounding more like they should and so on.
But it was close, the Preludes are no slouch :)
I felt having the sub on the entire time hurt the Sierra's a bit.
They almost sounded too rich, too full.
Took the sub out of the equation and the bloat was gone, just deep, articulate and surprisingly strong bass from these little Sierra's.

More to follow

dc

I understand your reasoning, AS LONG as folks are aware that the Sierra's are being handicapped for this test, I see nothing wrong with it.

These Sierras sound damn good, my neighbors must hate me by now!!
If you are running the NHTs without a sub, they are being handicapped. As has been stated already, they are not meant to be run full range but with a sub. A better test would be something like the Classic Threes which can be run full range and are very close to the Sierras price wise.

If you are running the NHTs without a sub, they are being handicapped. As has been stated already, they are not meant to be run full range but with a sub. A better test would be something like the Classic Threes which can be run full range and are very close to the Sierras price wise.
You're right the Classic 3's would be a good match for the Sierra's.
My local friend, an NHTaholic, has the Classic 3's or at least his grilfriend does. I'll get him to borrow them from her and get them invoved in this little shootout.

dc

You're right the Classic 3's would be a good match for the Sierra's.
My local friend, an NHTaholic, has the Classic 3's or at least his grilfriend does. I'll get him to borrow them from her and get them invoved in this little shootout.

dc
Sounds like a great idea. It will be interesting to see how an $800 B&M model stacks up to an $800 ID model.

I have compared the Classic Threes and the 340SEs directly in two settings. In my house I thought the speakers were very close, but I preferred the 340 by a slim margin. At another house, in a better room, there was no comparison--the 340s were much better.

There would be no contest vs. the Sierra. YMMV.

I have compared the Classic Threes and the 340SEs directly in two settings. In my house I thought the speakers were very close, but I preferred the 340 by a slim margin. At another house, in a better room, there was no comparison--the 340s were much better.

There would be no contest vs. the Sierra. YMMV.
Based on what I've heard from the Sierra's thus far, you're probably right.
I owned and liked the NHT AZ (Amazing Zero) but preferred, by a large margin, my Ascend 170s (orginal version).
But since it won't cost me anything, but time, I think it would be educational.......
as most comparsions can be.

dc

A comparison between the two is quite fair since they have similar bass response.

Here's a couple pictures:

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/1061/img0938cy9.th.jpg (http://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0938cy9.jpg)

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/2393/img0939ns1.th.jpg (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0939ns1.jpg)

The Polk's have pretty nice build quality. They are maybe a pound or two lighter than the Sierras, a little bit wider than the Sierras (because of the side wood panels, a little shorter and about an inch and a half less deep). They have a small front port and larger one in the rear. It also has an interesting built in mounting bracket which has a spike of sort that points into the port and acts as some sort of diffuser.

The piano black finish is not quite as nice as the Sierras. The Sierras have a mirror like finish, among the finest I've ever seen. The Polk's is a little fuzzier with a very slight texture. The cabinet is pretty solid. Seems to be braced quite well.

Sound impressions to follow, I want to let them break in some more.

do any of the Ascend insiders know if they plan on making an MTM centre?

You mean specifically of the Sierra line or any Ascend MTM center?

I too would be happy to see an MTM Sierra, for the center at least.

This is the only MTM center they have. It's an awesome center, but personally I like the Sierra center better. Granted, the Sierra center is just a Sierra front with the tweeter rotated 90-degrees. But it's incredibly clear. In my opinion dialog is most intelligible with the Sierra center.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cmt340c/cmt340c.html

I too would be happy to see an MTM Sierra, for the center at least.
Why?

You mean specifically of the Sierra line or any Ascend MTM center?

I talked to Dave last week and he said at this time there was no plans to do a MTM Sierra center.

Bill

We finally got around to the Sierra vs NHT M6.
Without a sub, no comparsion, it wasn't even close, the Sierra made the M6 sound hollow and empty, all sizzle..... no beef.
With a sub, crossed over at 80hz, the Sierras still bettered the M6s, particularly with their mid-bass smoothness and warmth compared to the M6s.
Switching to the M6s from the Sierra's had the effect of sterilizing the music.
Reminded me of the Infinity Prelude MTS Towers. Some may even prefer this sound, at least until they, if they, A/B them against a speaker like the Sierra's.
Diana Krall's voice (Sierra's) had more throat to it with all the edge you expect to hear. You could get lost in the Sierra's presentation of female vocals, at least I did :)
Also the Sierra's high end is silky smooth (Seas tweeter), the M6s sounded edgy by comparison.

The Sierra's claim another victory! (IMHO)
Next up, and maybe most interesting, the Outlaw Bookshelves, arriving this Saturday.

dc

dc:

Interesting comparison. I'm not surprised: the NHT has a bit of a cool presentation which always left me just a wanting a tad more warmth. Utilizing the X-1 crossover and fiddling with its adjustments allowed "warming it up" but at the expense of tranparency.

dc:

Interesting comparison. I'm not surprised: the NHT has a bit of a cool presentation which always left me just a wanting a tad more warmth. Utilizing the X-1 crossover and fiddling with its adjustments allowed "warming it up" but at the expense of tranparency.
Yes the M6 has transparency up the gazoo, so do the Infinity Preludes.

tonygeno,
Do you still have the Outlaw Bookselves? What do you think of them?

dc

Yes the M6 has transparency up the gazoo, so do the Infinity Preludes.

tonygeno,
Do you still have the Outlaw Bookselves? What do you think of them?

dc
I like them a lot. Tonally they are very similar to the Totem Mani-2s I also have on hand (with a sub, of course). The Manis go much lower without a sub, and perhaps have a bit more inner detail. They image similarly, with the Manis possessing a somewhat bigger soundstage. Of course the Manis are over 4 times the price of the Outlaws, so they should be better.

I like them a lot. Tonally they are very similar to the Totem Mani-2s I also have on hand (with a sub, of course). The Manis go much lower without a sub, and perhaps have a bit more inner detail. They image similarly, with the Manis possessing a somewhat bigger soundstage. Of course the Manis are over 4 times the price of the Outlaws, so they should be better.
It sounds like you prefer the Totem Mani-2s :)
Are you going to keep the Outlaws or return them?
Or maybe you'd like to sell them... I may be interested depending on how my audition goes against the Sierra's :)
Hard to imagine the Outlaws beating out the Sierra's without the help of a sub, but with a sub you never know.......

dc

dc:

I am not selling the Outlaws as I'm using them in my video setup. The Sierras will go lower than the Outlaw (it's smaller and is not going for ultimate low end for the box size). You should try some comparisons using a sub to see how they shake out utilizing the sub. I'm very interested in you thoughts.

DC,

I just ordered a pair of Sierra's but I've been looking at the Outlaws too, so I'm really interested in your comparison. BTW I just sold my Classic 3's...I liked them for their detail and imaging but to me there was something 'missing'. I guess like Tony I prefer a bit more 'warmth'.

dc:

I am not selling the Outlaws as I'm using them in my video setup. The Sierras will go lower than the Outlaw (it's smaller and is not going for ultimate low end for the box size). You should try some comparisons using a sub to see how they shake out utilizing the sub. I'm very interested in you thoughts.
Another interesting thing about the two (Sierras and Outlaws) is the price.
The Outlaws are $150 more plus $20 more to ship.
The Sierras are bigger/heavier, no big deal there,
Bamboo piano black versus hand-painted black MDF,
the Sierra's have, imho, world class bass response for a bookshelf.
the Sierra's also use the SEAS tweeter.
On paper it looks like the Sierra should cost more?

Tony, what height speaker stands are you using with your Outlaws/Totems?
With the Sierra's I'm presently using 24" stands which puts the tweeter right at ear level from my primary listening position, 12' away. This seems ideal but I've been reading, Outlaw forum for one, that 30" stands are recommended :confused:

dc

I use 30". A couple of things re the differences. The Outlaw does have those two switches on the back that help tune the speaker to the room and position within the room which adds to the cost. Also, the speakers are built in the US (cabinetry, etc) which tends to add to the cost and the speakers are individually tested and matched to tight tolerances. Whether this means anything in the real world is open to debate but the performance is essentially guaranteed. Finally they use a rather unique grill mounting system and a high quality metal grill (which I have of course removed) to protect the drivers from poking little fingers.

In the end though, it's all about the sound and whether it's worth it to you.

Does anybody have an interesting comparsion rival for the Sierra's?

If you could obtain a pair of Mission v60's they would make a good comparison, I think they are in the same class as the Sierra's and Era D-5's as far as bass output for small speakers. They also have the 3 dimensional midrange the people attribute to the Sierra's and the D-5's. When available they retailed for $550/pair unfortunately they are sold out for the only internet source in the USA that I have found.

Sierras will be here today. Also have 170 classics, 340se, and onix ref1 that I will be comparing them to. I really love the refs and am looking forward to something new and hopefully better.

Sierras will be here today. Also have 170 classics, 340se, and onix ref1 that I will be comparing them to. I really love the refs and am looking forward to something new and hopefully better.

Will be interesting to hear how the comparison goes!

Here's a couple pictures:

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/1061/img0938cy9.th.jpg (http://img527.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0938cy9.jpg)

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/2393/img0939ns1.th.jpg (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0939ns1.jpg)

The Polk's have pretty nice build quality. They are maybe a pound or two lighter than the Sierras, a little bit wider than the Sierras (because of the side wood panels, a little shorter and about an inch and a half less deep). They have a small front port and larger one in the rear. It also has an interesting built in mounting bracket which has a spike of sort that points into the port and acts as some sort of diffuser.

The piano black finish is not quite as nice as the Sierras. The Sierras have a mirror like finish, among the finest I've ever seen. The Polk's is a little fuzzier with a very slight texture. The cabinet is pretty solid. Seems to be braced quite well.

Sound impressions to follow, I want to let them break in some more.Looking forward to a comparison

OK. I never have bought from a internet direct company, so I think sometime soon I'm going to give it a shot. I've been thinking lately about getting in on the SVS MBS pre-order which is $900, but I've been seeing all the reviews on the ascend sierras and am going to throw them in to the equation.

I've heard that drivers and stuff aren't everything, but I figured out though that svs uses a $220 scanspeak tweeter and the ascend acoustics uses a $35 seas tweeter..the 29TFF/W. Lots of other stuff figured in to the equation like cabinets, crossovers, etc, etc..I still think I'm gonna wait. Anyone else has some input I'd love to hear it. Not sure on ascend's woofer..I'm pretty sure it is peerless though, similar to the MBS which uses peerless hds nomex.

I am quite sure now, actually, that the ascends use a $50 peerless driver, the 830860. And yes, I know, drivers don't mean everything..I know literally nothing and I find the pricing intriguing :-).

you can find some information about Sierra drivers here: http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=2600 The woofer is a custom design by Ascend.

Driver quality is extremely important, since they're the ones who will convert the electrical impulses to sound. So if the woofers aren't very good to start with, the loudspeaker will never be very good in the end. But you have to keep in mind that price isn't everything and a driver costing more doesn't necessarily means that it's 'better'. If you look into DIY you'll see that very often it's not the case and that even some 30$ tweeters can perform amazingly well, so I wouldn't let the driver cost be my main selection criteria.

Also you have to keep in mind that implementation can make a huge difference. As you mentioned, the cabinet is very important and the bamboo cabinet is extremely stiff, and the driver integration is also critical (crossover).

I can't speak for the SVS but can tell you that the Sierra is a real bargain :)

you can find some information about Sierra drivers here: http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=2600 The woofer is a custom design by Ascend.

Driver quality is extremely important, since they're the ones who will convert the electrical impulses to sound. So if the woofers aren't very good to start with, the loudspeaker will never be very good in the end. But you have to keep in mind that price isn't everything and a driver costing more doesn't necessarily means that it's 'better'. If you look into DIY you'll see that very often it's not the case and that even some 30$ tweeters can perform amazingly well, so I wouldn't let the driver cost be my main selection criteria.

Also you have to keep in mind that implementation can make a huge difference. As you mentioned, the cabinet is very important and the bamboo cabinet is extremely stiff, and the driver integration is also critical (crossover).

I can't speak for the SVS but can tell you that the Sierra is a real bargain :)

This always throws me off..

does ascend acoustics measure hundreds of tweeters between the price range of $35-150...and then decide on a $35 tweeter because it sounds much nicer then many other $85 tweeters they were trying out? Not as if I don't doubt it is good...it just isn't making sense in my head since when you spend more usually it is nicer. Actually they get huge, huge discounts..so something costing $35 to us is way lower to them. You honestly can't say that something costing $35 will outplay everything available to the general public costing $90. That wouldn't make any sense if it were true, at all. No one would buy $90 tweeters. I understand you need a margin, but still something doesn't seem right.

I mean, why not use the Seas Excel tweeter..$80. I don't know, but I'm guessing it isn't because it doesn't sound as good, it's because they make like $50 more each pair of bookshelves they sell. I'm confused, scared, and really wishing I was a champion DIY king because I'm starting to sense a disturbance in the force.

I still think it is a modified peerless polypropylene 830860, but I could be wrong. Either way it is pretty high end from what I hear.
woofer (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/images/madisound/product/830860.jpg)


Really has to pain the guy at SVS, the owner...he looks at his numbers, and realizes that each pair of $220 tweeters cost him, what $135(still more expensive in quantity with scanspeak)? I have no idea. $270 a pair...he finds a $100 tweeter that isn't top choice that he can get cheaper in large numbers, $45, $90 a pair. $180 loss at each pair of floor standers/bookshelves he sells. Lets say he sells 2,000 floorstanders/bookshelves in grand total. That is a $360,000 loss of profit.

Sorry, I'm not going to post after this, lol, I was just kind of annoyed. I hope these new speakers revolutionize stuff.

There's many different things to look at when looking at drivers... I'm not an expert, and I think it would be a good question for Dave to answer, but you have to look at FR, roll off, dispersion, efficiency, etc..

What Ascend said about the tweeter:
In order to realize our goal of reducing the negative acoustic effects caused by each loudspeaker component, the Sierra would require a special tweeter. In addition to my typical requirements (linear on- and off-axis response and excellent extension), I demanded an exceptionally clean spectral decay combined with very low distortion. Of course, our good friends at SEAS of Norway were once again up to the task.

SEAS engineers recommended a new tweeter currently under development that I could customize to suit Ascend’s needs. Of course, this new tweeter took a bit longer than expected, but the first samples finally arrived and the results were very impressive. This new tweeter has a few unique features. It contains an integrated slightly elliptical wave guide made of flexible and absorbent elastomer. The subtle shaping helps control the off-axis response and aids in the reduction of diffraction, while the elastomer material helps absorb stray high-frequency wavelengths. The wave guide insert also has the added benefit of covering the magnet assembly screws, thus eliminating the pesky reflections these cause.

The tweeter also contains an extremely wide integrated surround (the part of the tweeter that attaches the dome to the faceplate). This serves to better dampen the dome, thus reducing various resonances and break-up modes.

We added our own customizations to this already superb tweeter to further improve performance.

The final result is a tweeter with an extremely impressive spectral decay. Both harmonic and IM distortion are extremely low and the frequency response is smooth and linear both on- and off-axis. This tweeter is incredibly natural sounding, with a clear and detailed character that is crisp without ever being fatiguing. It literally oozes that magical “airy” sound that is so elusive yet critical to a high-end loudspeaker.

I'm certain the 260$ tweeters are better in some ways, but from what I've read they're not better in all ways. So it ends up being a switching of compromises, and the advantages the most expensive tweeter might give you might not be the advantages you're looking for as you're designing the speaker.

But one of the biggest disadvantage of expensive tweeters are just that, they're expensive... Lets say for fun that the 260$ is better in every way than a 30$ one. If you use two 260$ drivers instead of two 30$ drivers, then you have to increase the price by 2x230$ to keep your profit margins, so a 460$ difference in price that you have to pass to the consumer. That's more than 50% more expensive in the case of the ~800$ish Ascend Sierras. Are the tweeters really THAT much better that they warrant such an increase of price? They can't sell a speaker 800$ with 400$ worth of tweeters... What would that leave for development costs, cabinets, crossover, woofer, finish, etc..?

But then again, in reality, price isn't a clear indication of 'performance'. There's been some tweeter comparisons, for example: http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/compare.html

For example, compare the Seas 29TFFW ($32) to the Scan-Speak 7100 ($267), Seas Millennium ($160), etc.. It's much more a matter of selecting the right driver for your application than just buying the most expensive tweeter because it costs more and 'will be better'.

Take a look at the CSD measurements of 7100 vs TFFW, you'll see a bigger 'spike' at around 15000hz... Looking at the measurements, if I had no idea of price, I couldn't really tell you which would sound better... the 30$ or the 260$ one... Seems cleaner at 4k to 10k, but... is the 'spike' audible? FR is good on both. What about dispersion? Off axis response? etc...

Compare the harmonic distortion of the Seas Crescendo ($263) vs Seas 29TFFW ($32)... Again, it would be hard to just looking at the graphs, which one costs 8 times more...

Anyhow, 30$ tweeters can sound extremely good, tweeters costing 8 times more might sound better... Even if they do, they cost 8 times more... Worth the price?

It's like comparing CPUs, you can buy an Intel Dual Core at 2.4ghz for ... lets say 200$, and a 2.8ghz for 600$. For sure the 2.8 is faster, but is it worth 400$ more, or 3 times the price? Are you going to notice that performance? Is a 260$ tweeter really worth 8 times more than a 30$ speaker, price which would make the end speaker cost like 50% more? (800->1200$?)

I'll say though that the SVS speaker seems interesting. USA made, (good for americans!), expensive tweeter does seem interesting, but in the end, speaker design is about compromises. Like I said before, if you spend more on the tweeter, you'll invariably have to spend less somewhere else. Being made in the USA sounds absolutely great and patriotic and all, BUT, it costs more than doing it overseas... So again, if you spend more to make the cabinets in USA, then you have to cut somewhere else.

Say 30$ tweeters can be bought for 20$... 200$ tweet than for what, 130$? thats 40$ worth of tweeters vs 260$. For a pair of speakers of 900$, then you have 860$ 'left' vs 640$ for the other components/mftr costs/finish/profits/etc.. Say making cabinets overseas costs [insert amount] and making in the USA costs [insert amount] x 2, than again that'll leave less for the rest of the components, profits, etc.. (So have to sell for more, or sacrifice somewhere else...)

In the end, you're MUCH better off looking at the finished speaker than at the cost of its components since speaker design is about compromises. See which ones made the speaker which most appeals to you. Using high quality or very expensive drivers is 'great', but a great deal comes from speaker design and implementation, so you really have to wait to hear it before being able to pass final judgment :)

So order the two, compare and return one, and let us know how it went!

The bottomline with all of this is real world performance of the overall package.

I've heard that drivers and stuff aren't everything, but I figured out though that svs uses a $220 scanspeak tweeter and the ascend acoustics uses a $35 seas tweeter..the 29TFF/W. Lots of other stuff figured in to the equation like cabinets, crossovers, etc, etc..I still think I'm gonna wait. Anyone else has some input I'd love to hear it. Not sure on ascend's woofer..I'm pretty sure it is peerless though, similar to the MBS which uses peerless hds nomex.

I am quite sure now, actually, that the ascends use a $50 peerless driver, the 830860. And yes, I know, drivers don't mean everything..I know literally nothing and I find the pricing intriguing :-).
Also remember, and I realize it is not easily verifiable, but Ascend states that the drivers are customized. While on the outside they may look like a specific model, internally there are some specific differences.

FWIW, the driver does not look like that Peerless driver to me.

I'm posting this as part 1 because I wanted to get my initial impressions down.
I'll continue to break-in and listen to the Outlaws and Sierra's, and post a follow up in a few days.
As expected, the Outaw's need a sub. When ran full range and pushed with some bass energy music, such as Jack Johnson's - Middle Man or The Postal Service - We Will Become Silhouettes tracks, into medium SPL (80db), port noise comes into play. The bass driver holds together well but the port falls apart. So all our listening comparison between the Sierra and Outlaw were done with a sub and both were crossed over at 80hz.
The Outlaw's Boundary switch was set to 0, High Frequency switch set to 0 as well. We played around a bit with these controls and thought their effects were subtle, a good thing IMO.
Based on listening and comparison listening, I've found the Sierra's to have a nice balance of warmth and detail. But.....
The Outlaw's own the warm tag.

Imaging is excellent on both speakers.
However switching from the Sierra's to the Outlaws resulted in,
the soundstage to shrink and flatten out some,
instruments lose some of their separation and air (one of my favorite Sierra attributes)
the musical presentation becomes compressed (sounding more like a box),
vocals lose some edge,
mid-bass loses some articulation,
and the overall musical presentation (compared to the Sierra's remember) loses some of the Sierra's "in the music" feel. You really hear "into" the music with the Sierra's, whereas you just sort of hear the music with the Outlaw's.
Some of these differences are subtle, others relatively obvious (such as air, compression).

If I didn't have the Sierra's around for comparison, the Outlaw's, with a good sub, could be one of the better small bookshelf speakers I've heard.
I like their warmth, their highs are crisp and clean, what bass they have is fairly tight and musical.
But............. the Sierra's are still KING :) IMHO

Still I can see how some, maybe many, will prefer the Outlaw's....
because of their warm sound, smaller size, build quality, configurability and cool metal grill :)

dc

dc:

Nice write-up.

... and the ascend acoustics uses a $35 seas tweeter..the 29TFF/W.

That tweeter is not chambered, that I can tell, and the one Ascend uses is.

I see Tangband clues in the Ascend driver but the Ascend forum says it is a multi vendor custom driver.

The Ascend driver.

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/ascenduploads/wof2.jpghttp://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/ascenduploads/wof1.jpg


The Peerless polypropylene 830860

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/images/madisound/product/830860.jpg

The Ascend driver.

http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/ascenduploads/wof2.jpghttp://forum.ascendacoustics.com/images/ascenduploads/wof1.jpg


The Peerless polypropylene 830860

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/images/madisound/product/830860.jpg
Any questions........... :D

I'll say though that the SVS speaker seems interesting. USA made, (good for americans!), expensive tweeter does seem interesting, but in the end, speaker design is about compromises. Like I said before, if you spend more on the tweeter, you'll invariably have to spend less somewhere else. Being made in the USA sounds absolutely great and patriotic and all, BUT, it costs more than doing it overseas... So again, if you spend more to make the cabinets in USA, then you have to cut somewhere else.

Say 30$ tweeters can be bought for 20$... 200$ tweet than for what, 130$? thats 40$ worth of tweeters vs 260$. For a pair of speakers of 900$, then you have 860$ 'left' vs 640$ for the other components/mftr costs/finish/profits/etc.. Say making cabinets overseas costs [insert amount] and making in the USA costs [insert amount] x 2, than again that'll leave less for the rest of the components, profits, etc.. (So have to sell for more, or sacrifice somewhere else...)

In the end, you're MUCH better off looking at the finished speaker than at the cost of its components since speaker design is about compromises. See which ones made the speaker which most appeals to you. Using high quality or very expensive drivers is 'great', but a great deal comes from speaker design and implementation, so you really have to wait to hear it before being able to pass final judgment :)

So order the two, compare and return one, and let us know how it went!

Grandarf, I am quoting this because we agree 100%. Is that a first ? :D

DreamCatcher,

Hopefully I will be around this weekend so I can bring the Big Guns (Aerial 5B's) down for a comparision. I am very curious to see how this is going to result.

Adios

Wait, wait, wait.

So why does seas, a huge corporation, charge $35 for the 29TFF/W and $80 for the T25CF-001 (excel tweeter)??

Is it because the $35 is better, and the $80 tweeter exist so that you think you are getting a good deal? I understand there are measurements, some expensive tweeters are worse in some areas and better in others, etc, etc...but I'm looking at it from Sea's perspective. Many people argue that the Millennium/Crescendo, Morel Supreme, various scanspeak/accuton , etc etc are some of the best tweeters in the world. Of course they cost a little more, but they are "better". Many people argue that some $35(well below $20 for the manufacturer) tweeters sound great and offer great value...but when I purchase a $1,000 pair of bookshelves, I kinda hope they'd spend more then $20 on a crucial piece of the system when $1k is a modest chunk of change for bkshelves. Again, I haven't heard the speaker, and I'm sure if I'd bought them I'd probably love them..it still makes me mad..I mean, I'm sure there were better tweeters that cost $60 they heard. All you guys could have a better product right now. Would you object if ascend acoustics sent you a letter in the mail, and asked if you wanted a free upgrade to a better tweeter that coincidently cost a little more? you'd say bring it on...because no speaker is perfect, and they could have threw done a few extra bucks...the cheapest tweeters on the market cost around $20-yes I know, some are cheaper..they "coincidently" chose a tweeter that fit their taste way down on the bottom.

Just sounds like a bunch of people in here already bought this speaker and even if I'd be kinda, a tiny bit right, I'm just going to get the gallows.


And stop saying "$35 is great because these are great"

ascend acoustics obviously tested out a $55 tweeter that also was great and would have had a better speaker. Not like any of this matters to me at all, I was just hoping to have more value from a internet direct company. And yea, for the last time, I'm sure the $35 tweeter sounds PHENOMENAL, but there are BETTER below $75--and yes they get a huge discount so it doesn't cost a crazy amount...

These are not "value" speakers...not real hi-fi, but they aren't going to be found at target. Value speakers get value tweeters.

Hi Andy,

So why does seas, a huge corporation, charge $35 for the 29TFF/W and $80 for the T25CF-001 (excel tweeter)??

It is simple really – because one technology is more expensive to implement than another. One tweeter uses an array of neodymium magnets in the motor assembly and another uses a ferrite magnet. Neodymium is expensive when compared to ferrite. Both are magnet materials, neodymium offers a stronger magnetic field per gram of metal than ferrite, thus allowing smaller magnets -- at the sacrifice of cooling. More expensive technology does not necessarily mean better.

I am intimately familiar with the entire SEAS line of tweeters (in addition to many other lines of tweeters.) Retail pricing for tweeters rarely reflects performance. I have personally measured 1000's (yes, that is thousands) of stock and proprietary tweeters in my 25+ years of designing loudspeakers. I can clearly recall spending almost 4 full work weeks, perhaps 12 years ago, with every hour of each day dedicated to evaluating various tweeters for a new project using some of the most advanced audio equipment available. The end result was that the *most appropriate* tweeter for this application was almost the least expensive in the bunch. Sure, there were tweeters that had lower distortion, higher power handling, flatter response - but these were not suitable for our application.

I have seen such well regarded tweeters such as the 27TDFC ($27 retail?) in $10,000 speakers… You would be making a mistake to judge the performance or “value” of any loudspeaker by what you think is the retail price of the tweeter. Additionally, the tweeter we are using is *not* the 29TFF/W – we have modified this tweeter to better suit our needs.

One of the many items that make the Sierra such a unique loudspeaker is that the desired response, including off-axis dispersion and the slopes of the crossover filters were designed well before we even chose our components. Most (if not all) loudspeakers are designed opposite from this (including every other loudspeaker I have designed) whereby we chose a tweeter, chose the woofer and then design the crossover to work with the drivers.

The tweeter we went with was better suited than any other tweeter I evaluated. I required exceptionally clean spectral decay + flat frequency response from 1 kHz to 30 kHz + controlled dispersion. Considering these requirements, the tweeter we are using bested (by a large margin) every other tweeter we tested --- including the SEAS Millenium (and various other SEAS models). The list of tweeters, both stock and proprietary that I tested for this application was both extensive and time consuming…

Now back to performance.. This is indeed a very interesting site (never saw it before) http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/compare.html these measurements actually correspond closely with my own….

Andy, let me ask you a question if you don’t mind... Based on the measurements you see on the site listed above, with tweeters ranging in price from nearly $300 / piece to $5 / piece – based on my requirements for the tweeter I needed, which of the tweeters listed on that site are most appropriate? Looks like the “lowly” 29TFF/W even beat the Millennium, Crescendo and highly regarded Scanspeak 6600 in every category I mentioned. Hmmm how could THAT be possible ;)

With tweeters, more expensive does not mean “better” – it means it cost more to build. With neo ring tweeters (the expensive ones you mention), the goal is to reduce or even eliminate the back wave reflection that comes off the tweeter dome, bounces off the magnet structure and then reflects back out of the front of the tweeter. Accomplishing this requires using many small neo magnets positioned in a ring around the former/voice coil of the tweeter so that there is no (or little) material behind the actual dome. Accomplishing this is very costly due to the complicated toolings involved and all of the neodymium required… This feature (like all things audio) involves compromises. Improve this, sacrifice some of that…

I should mention that there is a “feature” of the Sierra that you are overlooking here --- have you forgotten about the laminated hardwood cabinet – here is a material that cost 5 times what MDF costs and improves all aspects of performance without ANY compromises… I challenge you to find another loudspeaker anywhere in the world that uses this type of construction at anywhere near the price of the Sierra….

The value you get with Ascend is not only remarkable performance – but you are getting decades worth of engineering expertise, technical know how and many years of experience in loudspeaker design that is not common with many ID companies…

Loudspeaker design is about balance, it is about knowing exactly what to design for and how to go about achieving it. It is not about picking the most expensive or newest tweeter and designing around that tweeter – that is EASY my friend. If that is what you want, why not purchase those exact same parts yourself, buy some pre-fabricated finished cabinets, obtain some crossover modeling software and build your own speakers?

An experienced designer will tell you that it is all about balance, a synergistic approach to all components in the loudspeaker – all parts performing equally well – the tweeter, woofer, cabinet, port tube, crossover, damping – everything. The Sierra-1 achieves this delicate balance far greater than any other loudspeaker I have ever designed, worked on or measured.

Sure, I could have used the Millennium (or even the Crescendo), charged $100 more per pair and then used that feature to help market the Sierra, but that is not what this speaker (or Ascend for that matter) is about. The Millennium does not have the integrated wave guide which I needed for controlling dispersion, it has a shallower roll off which would have had to be compensated for in the crossover (requiring additional crossover parts which would have compromised performance) and the spectral decay (a tweeter specification that is most critical to me) is not as clean… Why would anyone want to pay $100 more for a speaker that actually offers lesser performance? I know the answer to this question and it is not Ascend customers, and those are who I design for....

I am not saying that the tweeter we use is *better* than the Millennium, however, it is, a better tweeter when considering the specifications that were important to the design of the Sierra-1…. There wasn’t even a close second (at any price point)…

Andy, if you are seriously interested in discussing more, I would be more than happy to. However, if your # 1 concern on the purchase of a loudspeaker is how expensive the assumed retail price is for just 1 of the components of the loudspeaker, our products would not be your best choice.

If you are looking for a loudspeaker that is the culmination of decades of design experience combined with truly remarkable performance, it is going to be very tough to best the Sierra-1…

Please feel free to send me a PM or call and ask for me if you would like to discuss more… As any of my customers will tell you, I am more than happy to discuss any of the details of our products.

Oh, and BTW, $35 for a tweeter is actually expensive compared to the vast majority of loudspeakers out there. In my experience, the average OEM price for tweeters found in >$1000/pr speakers is far less (normalized to reflect retail pricing with typical margins). While I won't share numbers with you, you would be in for quite a shock at what some of these tweeters actually cost -- and there is nothing wrong with that. It is all in the implementation --- being able to save some production costs while making no compromises on performance means that other areas of performance can be improved.... Definitely something worth thinking about... If you were building a $20,000 1/4 mile dragster, which suspension system would you use, the $2000 one that was perfectly appropriate for the car or a $10000 suspension that also offered formula-1 style handling (oval track)? Which car do you think will end up having a higher horsepower to weight ratio and use better tires? (the key parameters that would ultimately decide the 1/4 mile time - the better performer)

Hope I made some sense...

...the cheapest tweeters on the market cost around $20-yes I know, some are cheaper..

You are looking at retail prices for a mainly DIY market. There are plenty of reputable speakers out there where the tweeters cost $5 or less.

Just look at the zaphaudio.com and see that price and performance aren't always related for drivers and tweeters. Bose and Monster make huge money off people that believe that more expensive is automatically better.

Hope I made some sense...
More than a little. The late, great John Dunlavy preached the same philosophy: choosing the best drivers for the application regardless of price. It was remarked by more than one reviewer that he achieved truly state-of-the-art sound with some very inexpensive drivers. As you say, it's all in the implementation.

I once owned a set of his PCL-5s, which Bert Whyte declared were the equal of the Quad ESL 63. They were wall mounts that retailed for around $3000. His tweeter of choice: a $6 Audax 3/4" polycarbonate dome crossed over at 6000 to the mid-woofers. And guess what: it sounded great.

Puts that to rest.

Dreamcatcher:

A thought. It might make sense to play with the tweeter level control (+2) and the boundary control (-2 and then -4) to see if that removes some of the warmth your hearing and increases transparency. That's the beauty of the switches, you can affect the tonal balance. Just interested to see if they make a noticeable difference.

TG

dreamcatcher ... I looked, and could not find anything regarding to you test methodology. Are you doing level matching for your tests ? Are they some form of a blind test, or sighted test ?

Thanks !! :)

On a side note, we just wrapped up some blind listening on the Strata Minis vs. Sierra vs. Swan D2.1SE over the past week, with some interesting results.

If anyone is interested, we also used a VERY nice musical sub with the Sierras and Swans ... and I would be happy to post the results. As with the bookshelf speaker shootout, it was not a preference test, but rather was a comparison of characteristics of each speaker.

I too would be happy to see an MTM Sierra, for the center at least.Why?Yeah, why? :confused:

The only thing that would be better than the Sierra center Ascend is offering would be a standard Sierra used vertically, which is not possible for many people due to space and/or aesthetic concerns. :cool:

The only thing that would be better than the Sierra center Ascend is offering would be a standard Sierra used vertically, which is not possible for many people due to space and/or aesthetic concerns. :cool:
I was going to go with a vertical Sierra for this very reason(and because I think could have made it work...might not look the best, but would work), but I asked DaveF if I would get any benefit for the center. He said that because of the crossover, I wouldn't, so I went with a horizontal Sierra.

If I wanted to experiment though, I could turn the tweeter and try it vertical.

Dreamcatcher:

A thought. It might make sense to play with the tweeter level control (+2) and the boundary control (-2 and then -4) to see if that removes some of the warmth your hearing and increases transparency. That's the beauty of the switches, you can affect the tonal balance. Just interested to see if they make a noticeable difference.

TG
I would be interested in this as well.

On a side note, we just wrapped up some blind listening on the Strata Minis vs. Sierra vs. Swan D2.1SE over the past week, with some interesting results.

If anyone is interested, we also used a VERY nice musical sub with the Sierras and Swans ... and I would be happy to post the results. As with the bookshelf speaker shootout, it was not a preference test, but rather was a comparison of characteristics of each speaker.
I would be very interested to hear your results. Please post them. Thanks!

One of the many items that make the Sierra such a unique loudspeaker is that the desired response, including off-axis dispersion and the slopes of the crossover filters were designed well before we even chose our components. Most (if not all) loudspeakers are designed opposite from this (including every other loudspeaker I have designed) whereby we chose a tweeter, chose the woofer and then design the crossover to work with the drivers.




DF, great post, but could you elaborate more on this part? Why the change in design philosophy? Thanks in advance.

On a side note, we just wrapped up some blind listening on the Strata Minis vs. Sierra vs. Swan D2.1SE over the past week, with some interesting results.

If anyone is interested, we also used a VERY nice musical sub with the Sierras and Swans ... and I would be happy to post the results. As with the bookshelf speaker shootout, it was not a preference test, but rather was a comparison of characteristics of each speaker.

Craig, I am greatly interested in seeing your results!

Dreamcatcher:

A thought. It might make sense to play with the tweeter level control (+2) and the boundary control (-2 and then -4) to see if that removes some of the warmth your hearing and increases transparency. That's the beauty of the switches, you can affect the tonal balance. Just interested to see if they make a noticeable difference.

TG
We did "play" with the switches a bit, as I mentioned, but their effects are very subtle and only slightly change the music presentation. Certainly not enough to increase the Outlaw's transparency. The boundary switch was the most helpful of the two relieving some of the tubbiness when placed in close proximity to a wall, but leaned out the bass slightly when the speakers were placed in open spaces as we had them.

Craig,
Yes, level matching is performed and double checked, sometimes tripled checked.
Speaker distances, from listening position are measured and entered.
Some blind testing.... some not, probably 50/50.

A few more notes on the Sierra vs Outlaw
They are very close sensitivity wise, with the Outlaw being about 1db less sensitive.
The Sierra's sound like a much bigger speaker than the Outlaw.
Comparing the two side by side leaves the Outlaw sounding small by comparison.
The Sierra's don't sound like a bookshelf speaker at all.
They sound more like a medium size floor standing speaker.
I'm going to try to get my Aerial friend, the one who posted earlier about bringing his 5Bs over, to also bring along his 7Bs :)

dc

I was going to go with a vertical Sierra for this very reason(and because I think could have made it work...might not look the best, but would work), but I asked DaveF if I would get any benefit for the center. He said that because of the crossover, I wouldn't, so I went with a horizontal Sierra.Wait, I'm confused about what you are saying, here. Are you saying that there IS a difference between the center's and vertical speaker's crossovers or that there IS NOT a difference between the center's and vertical speaker's crossovers?

Wait, I'm confused about what you are saying, here. Are you saying that there IS a difference between the center's and vertical speaker's crossovers or that there IS NOT a difference between the center's and vertical speaker's crossovers?
The crossover is the same, but the performance between the two is not different due to the crossover (vertical and horizontal symmetry).

And regarding the crossover, this is from the Ascend site:

"OPPIX stands for Optimized Paradromic Phase Integrated X-Over (crossover). This sophisticated variable slope crossover precisely aligns the acoustic phase response of multiple transducers at the exact point where the response of one transducer crosses over to another, with reference to a specific point in space. This precise alignment allows the transducers to mimic a single point source radiator, allowing for symmetrical dispersion even with an asymmetrical transducer layout while maintaining a linear frequency response and greatly reducing off-axis phase and response anomalies. It also avoids the undesirable frequency response anomalies commonly found with even the best coaxial drivers."


DaveF, can you (or someone else) please explain the crossover in a little bit simpler, but more detailed (if that makes sense), terms? Thanks in advance.

The crossover is the same, but the performance between the two not different due to the crossover (vertical and horizontal symmetry).The vertical speaker would still be expected to have better horizontal dispersion and less vertical dispersion.

I think I can make is simpler....but I doubt more detailed.

In essence, the crossover allows the use of the woofer and tweeter to mimic many of the characteristics of a coaxial driver.

The vertical speaker would still be expected to have better horizontal dispersion and less vertical dispersion.
I would agree that after a certain angle, that would be true. So again, it depends on the room and application. The key word being "expected".

But like I posted earlier, after asking DaveF about it.....and me being fully willing to go with the vertical center, I decided to go with the horizontal.

I think I can make is simpler....but I doubt more detailed.

In essence, the crossover allows the use of the woofer and tweeter to mimic many of the characteristics of a coaxial driver.
Yeah, I gathered that. I just want to know exactly how, but in simpler terms, as that is no small feat and is probably the most novel feature of these speakers.

Yeah, I gathered that. I just want to know exactly how, but in simpler terms, as that is no small feat and is probably the most novel feature of these speakers.
I would imagine that might get into the intellectual property area.....but maybe not and DaveF will answer accordingly.

I would agree that after a certain angle, that would be true. So again, it depends on the room and application. The key word being "expected".

But like I posted earlier, after asking DaveF about it.....and me being fully willing to go with the vertical center, I decided to go with the horizontal.Well, you can't change physics. Take the simplest example of a single driver, centrally located in a rectangular cabinet. This speaker is going to have better horizontal dispersion when it's vertically oriented than when horizontally oriented.

Since you say the tweeter can be rotated, yes, you can easily experiment.

People's less than optimal placement of the center atop their TVs, racks, or cabinetry and or even within their racks or cabinetry will probably affect the dispersion more than anything.

I would imagine that might get into the intellectual property area.....but maybe not and DaveF will answer accordingly.No, I'm sure he could cut through the techno-babble a bit without disclosing anything too "secret".

I'm also wondering what other speaker manufacturers might employ similar technology or is this a completely and totally novel xover design?

Well, you can't change physics. Take the simplest example of a single driver, centrally located in a rectangular cabinet. This speaker is going to have better horizontal dispersion when it's vertically oriented than when horizontally oriented.

Since you say the tweeter can be rotated, yes, you can easily experiment.

People's less than optimal placement of the center atop their TVs, racks, or cabinetry and or even within their racks or cabinetry will probably affect the dispersion more than anything.
No argument from me.

All I can tell you is the Sierra center (horizontal) is the best center channel I have heard so far IMO. If I ever get a projector/screen....I might just rotate that tweeter and give it a try.

WOW these Outlaws can image!
I was listening to a little Pink Floyd...... Money (2-channel Direct Mode)
when I noticed a fingerprint on the front of one of my components (darn kids).
I got up from my listening chair and went up to my audio rack to clean off the fingerprint. I could have sworn my center speaker, which sits on top of my audio rack, was on. This is from inches away from the center speaker. Actually the sound, vocal and sax, sounded like it was coming from just behind my center speaker. The Outlaws are mounted on stands on the same plane as the center but the Outlaws tweeter sits a few inches (4 to be exact) above my center's tweeter.


I've been using tonygeno's idea of setting Boundary switch to -2db and High Frequency switch to +2db..... I like it!
Seems to have opened up the sound a bit or maybe these little guys needed a bit of break in.
Haven't been doing A/Bs for the last few hours.... just listening to the Outlaw's........ very nice.
I'm almost afraid to get the Sierra's involved against the Outlaw's again,
not because I think the Sierra's will falter.... just because I'm enjoying the Outlaw's doing their thing.

dc

dc ... sounds like a pretty cool test. Thanks for the efforts.

I just got in a video switcher, and will be re-configuring our basement system into a high end, 2 channel rig with a McIntosh MA-6900 Integrated running the speakers.

I probably won't get to post a complete summary of the Sierras and Swan D2.1SE's before we go on vacation Saturday ... but suffice it to say both speakers are great performers. Either will bring a pretty nice slice of high end sound to one's home for a small amount of cash.

And adding the Dana Model 600 sub puts a very nice 25 Hz floor to the music.

For an $1800 combo, the Sierra/600 or Swan D2.1SE/600 are reference quality.

It should not surprise anyone that the Dana 600 sub uses a Peerless 8 inch subwoofer driver, tuned to about 31 Hz.

Highly recommended with a top notch stand mounted speaker.

I was going to go with a vertical Sierra for this very reason(and because I think could have made it work...might not look the best, but would work), but I asked DaveF if I would get any benefit for the center. He said that because of the crossover, I wouldn't, so I went with a horizontal Sierra.


I'm glad you asked Dave--I was thinking about the same thing, and I could accomodate a vertical speaker.

Aright, I'm going to shut up for about 4 months now while I wait for the SVS MBS to come out. lol..that will be the true test.

I hate to say it is a true price to price comparison since the SVS costs $1k(pre-order is $900) and the Sierra-1 costs $800...but ascend acoustics says their tweeter is the best tweeter out there, so if SVS fails by making the mistake of using the scanspeak D3004/6600-00 ($220), then I will admit defeat and feel utter shame. :-)

Aright, I'm going to shut up for about 4 months now while I wait for the SVS MBS to come out. lol..that will be the true test.

I hate to say it is a true price to price comparison since the SVS costs $1k(pre-order is $900) and the Sierra-1 costs $800...but ascend acoustics says their tweeter is the best tweeter out there, so if SVS fails by making the mistake of using the scanspeak D3004/6600-00 ($220), then I will admit defeat and feel utter shame. :-)
You missed the whole point.

Sierras will be here today. Also have 170 classics, 340se, and onix ref1 that I will be comparing them to. I really love the refs and am looking forward to something new and hopefully better.

Hey bloodstone, have you listened to the Sierra-1a and the Ref-1s in the same room yet? I am curious to hear your opinions.

You missed the whole point.

I completely and utterly understand that price doesn't make something great...but I also understand that the D3004 is one of the best tweeters out there and actually many claim it literally is the best tweeter... obviously this will be used precisely to svs's "needs".

Gotta admit though, the sierras look really, really nice and obviously sound fantastic..kinda wish I had a store or something around here to take a listen.

I completely and utterly understand that price doesn't make something great...but I also understand that the D3004 is one of the best tweeters out there and actually many claim it literally is the best tweeter... obviously this will be used precisely to svs's "needs".
Well if the SVS uses the best tweeter and Ascend doesn't, then by all means buy the SVS as it will surely be the better speaker of the two. And be happy to know that the speaker you bought for 900$ has the best tweeter and so has got to have the best sound! [/end sarcasm]

I completely and utterly understand that price doesn't make something great...but I also understand that the D3004 is one of the best tweeters out there and actually many claim it literally is the best tweeter... obviously this will be used precisely to svs's "needs".
I still think you missed the point, but if having the single "best", standalone component in your speaker is of high importance....then it is understandable.

Gotta admit though, the sierras look really, really nice and obviously sound fantastic..kinda wish I had a store or something around here to take a listen.
Where are you located? Maybe there is an owner near by.

Hi Andy,



It is simple really – because one technology is more expensive to implement than another. One tweeter uses an array of neodymium magnets in the motor assembly and another uses a ferrite magnet. Neodymium is expensive when compared to ferrite. Both are magnet materials, neodymium offers a stronger magnetic field per gram of metal than ferrite, thus allowing smaller magnets -- at the sacrifice of cooling. More expensive technology does not necessarily mean better.

I am intimately familiar with the entire SEAS line of tweeters (in addition to many other lines of tweeters.) Retail pricing for tweeters rarely reflects performance. I have personally measured 1000's (yes, that is thousands) of stock and proprietary tweeters in my 25+ years of designing loudspeakers. I can clearly recall spending almost 4 full work weeks, perhaps 12 years ago, with every hour of each day dedicated to evaluating various tweeters for a new project using some of the most advanced audio equipment available. The end result was that the *most appropriate* tweeter for this application was almost the least expensive in the bunch. Sure, there were tweeters that had lower distortion, higher power handling, flatter response - but these were not suitable for our application.

I have seen such well regarded tweeters such as the 27TDFC ($27 retail?) in $10,000 speakers… You would be making a mistake to judge the performance or “value” of any loudspeaker by what you think is the retail price of the tweeter. Additionally, the tweeter we are using is *not* the 29TFF/W – we have modified this tweeter to better suit our needs.

One of the many items that make the Sierra such a unique loudspeaker is that the desired response, including off-axis dispersion and the slopes of the crossover filters were designed well before we even chose our components. Most (if not all) loudspeakers are designed opposite from this (including every other loudspeaker I have designed) whereby we chose a tweeter, chose the woofer and then design the crossover to work with the drivers.

The tweeter we went with was better suited than any other tweeter I evaluated. I required exceptionally clean spectral decay + flat frequency response from 1 kHz to 30 kHz + controlled dispersion. Considering these requirements, the tweeter we are using bested (by a large margin) every other tweeter we tested --- including the SEAS Millenium (and various other SEAS models). The list of tweeters, both stock and proprietary that I tested for this application was both extensive and time consuming…

Now back to performance.. This is indeed a very interesting site (never saw it before) http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/compare.html these measurements actually correspond closely with my own….

Andy, let me ask you a question if you don’t mind... Based on the measurements you see on the site listed above, with tweeters ranging in price from nearly $300 / piece to $5 / piece – based on my requirements for the tweeter I needed, which of the tweeters listed on that site are most appropriate? Looks like the “lowly” 29TFF/W even beat the Millennium, Crescendo and highly regarded Scanspeak 6600 in every category I mentioned. Hmmm how could THAT be possible ;)

With tweeters, more expensive does not mean “better” – it means it cost more to build. With neo ring tweeters (the expensive ones you mention), the goal is to reduce or even eliminate the back wave reflection that comes off the tweeter dome, bounces off the magnet structure and then reflects back out of the front of the tweeter. Accomplishing this requires using many small neo magnets positioned in a ring around the former/voice coil of the tweeter so that there is no (or little) material behind the actual dome. Accomplishing this is very costly due to the complicated toolings involved and all of the neodymium required… This feature (like all things audio) involves compromises. Improve this, sacrifice some of that…

I should mention that there is a “feature” of the Sierra that you are overlooking here --- have you forgotten about the laminated hardwood cabinet – here is a material that cost 5 times what MDF costs and improves all aspects of performance without ANY compromises… I challenge you to find another loudspeaker anywhere in the world that uses this type of construction at anywhere near the price of the Sierra….

The value you get with Ascend is not only remarkable performance – but you are getting decades worth of engineering expertise, technical know how and many years of experience in loudspeaker design that is not common with many ID companies…

Loudspeaker design is about balance, it is about knowing exactly what to design for and how to go about achieving it. It is not about picking the most expensive or newest tweeter and designing around that tweeter – that is EASY my friend. If that is what you want, why not purchase those exact same parts yourself, buy some pre-fabricated finished cabinets, obtain some crossover modeling software and build your own speakers?

An experienced designer will tell you that it is all about balance, a synergistic approach to all components in the loudspeaker – all parts performing equally well – the tweeter, woofer, cabinet, port tube, crossover, damping – everything. The Sierra-1 achieves this delicate balance far greater than any other loudspeaker I have ever designed, worked on or measured.

Sure, I could have used the Millennium (or even the Crescendo), charged $100 more per pair and then used that feature to help market the Sierra, but that is not what this speaker (or Ascend for that matter) is about. The Millennium does not have the integrated wave guide which I needed for controlling dispersion, it has a shallower roll off which would have had to be compensated for in the crossover (requiring additional crossover parts which would have compromised performance) and the spectral decay (a tweeter specification that is most critical to me) is not as clean… Why would anyone want to pay $100 more for a speaker that actually offers lesser performance? I know the answer to this question and it is not Ascend customers, and those are who I design for....

I am not saying that the tweeter we use is *better* than the Millennium, however, it is, a better tweeter when considering the specifications that were important to the design of the Sierra-1…. There wasn’t even a close second (at any price point)…

Andy, if you are seriously interested in discussing more, I would be more than happy to. However, if your # 1 concern on the purchase of a loudspeaker is how expensive the assumed retail price is for just 1 of the components of the loudspeaker, our products would not be your best choice.

If you are looking for a loudspeaker that is the culmination of decades of design experience combined with truly remarkable performance, it is going to be very tough to best the Sierra-1…

Please feel free to send me a PM or call and ask for me if you would like to discuss more… As any of my customers will tell you, I am more than happy to discuss any of the details of our products.

Oh, and BTW, $35 for a tweeter is actually expensive compared to the vast majority of loudspeakers out there. In my experience, the average OEM price for tweeters found in >$1000/pr speakers is far less (normalized to reflect retail pricing with typical margins). While I won't share numbers with you, you would be in for quite a shock at what some of these tweeters actually cost -- and there is nothing wrong with that. It is all in the implementation --- being able to save some production costs while making no compromises on performance means that other areas of performance can be improved.... Definitely something worth thinking about... If you were building a $20,000 1/4 mile dragster, which suspension system would you use, the $2000 one that was perfectly appropriate for the car or a $10000 suspension that also offered formula-1 style handling (oval track)? Which car do you think will end up having a higher horsepower to weight ratio and use better tires? (the key parameters that would ultimately decide the 1/4 mile time - the better performer)

Hope I made some sense...Very good David,I actually agree with everything you said regarding, price vs. performance vs. application,for instance many people in the diy world,have been using the Usher drivers (woofers) which are a dirrect clone to Scanpeek woofers, and they have measured substancially better and sound better in many application's and all for substancially cheaper,price is what it is price its as simple as that, margins reflect price not performance of course their are exceptions to the rule.

Never was fond of visiting people to audition..but I just noticed there is a flat rate shipping quote of $26 and 30 day money back guarantee. Guess I'll have to see.

Even though it seems that most people are anti premium drivers, I'd still like to see a affordable bookshelf or floorstander utilizing a D3004, a pair of 7 or 8" seas excel, scanspeak revelators, or accuton woofers, and something like a accuton C44 midrange with some really kick ass crossovers...of course this is a lot to the consumer, but to a major manufacturer, they get really excellent prices...the drivers for a pair of speakers would cost probably under $800-900 if I've assumed correctly..just for the drivers. That means with cabinet costs, crossovers, paying off all business costs, and wanting a profit..you could get away with selling these speakers for under $2,500 and still be profitable right? I mean, SVS is getting away with using a d3004 and a peerless hds 6.5" in a $1k bookshelf, I think this is possible?

Why hasn't anyone done that before? I know SVS is kind of starting to do it, I mean $1k is really cheap for the amount of cost going in to it, but still.....I have a prediction that if someone here pulled this off, like ascend or axiom or something, they'd get alot of interest, no?? Maybe I'm talking outa my ass. I'd buy em.

If you want something with these drivers mainstream...your spending like $10k+.

And yes there are a few different kind of DIY, people who value finding a great cheaper driver and people who like to splurge a little on something ridiculous.

I have 340's LRC, and 2 pair of HTM200's as surrounds and backs, that I use almost exclusively for HT, i.e., BluRay movies and HDTV. I'm wondering if there would be must of an improvement if I replaced the LCR 340's with 3 Sierras. The comments about the Sierras that have caught my eye are about the extreme clarity and presence of dialog. The 340's are of course very good in this regard, but I'm wondering if the Sierras are even significantly better. Has anyone here gone this route?

Never was fond of visiting people to audition..but I just noticed there is a flat rate shipping quote of $26 and 30 day money back guarantee. Guess I'll have to see.

Even though it seems that most people are anti premium drivers, I'd still like to see a affordable bookshelf or floorstander utilizing a D3004, a pair of 7 or 8" seas excel, scanspeak revelators, or accuton woofers, and something like a accuton C44 midrange with some really kick ass crossovers...of course this is a lot to the consumer, but to a major manufacturer, they get really excellent prices...the drivers for a pair of speakers would cost probably under $800-900 if I've assumed correctly..just for the drivers. That means with cabinet costs, crossovers, paying off all business costs, and wanting a profit..you could get away with selling these speakers for under $2,500 and still be profitable right? I mean, SVS is getting away with using a d3004 and a peerless hds 6.5" in a $1k bookshelf, I think this is possible?

Why hasn't anyone done that before? I know SVS is kind of starting to do it, I mean $1k is really cheap for the amount of cost going in to it, but still.....I have a prediction that if someone here pulled this off, like ascend or axiom or something, they'd get alot of interest, no?? Maybe I'm talking outa my ass. I'd buy em.

If you want something with these drivers mainstream...your spending like $10k+.

And yes there are a few different kind of DIY, people who value finding a great cheaper driver and people who like to splurge a little on something ridiculous.
I see a business opportunity. The market is crying out for this product, why not give it a go, and see what you come up with?

I have 340's LRC, and 2 pair of HTM200's as surrounds and backs, that I use almost exclusively for HT, i.e., BluRay movies and HDTV. I'm wondering if there would be must of an improvement if I replaced the LCR 340's with 3 Sierras. The comments about the Sierras that have caught my eye are about the extreme clarity and presence of dialog. The 340's are of course very good in this regard, but I'm wondering if the Sierras are even significantly better. Has anyone here gone this route?

When Curtis reads this he'll be able to answer, I'm pretty sure he replaced his LCR 340's with Sierra's. I'll say this I bought one pair to try and I never sent them back......They are excellent and the best under 1000 dollar speaker I have ever heard and I have either owned or demoed most of them at that price range.

These things can definitely run with the big boys. I did a side by side with my Paradigm S4's and no I didn't think they were better but they do come fairly close (at least to my ears). Anyway that's my 2 cents.

Thanks for the reply, Russdawg. I'm quite sure the Sierras are outstanding; I'm just wondering if, with a good sub, they represent a major improvement over 340's LCR, since the latter are already extremely good. And again, my interest is for HT rather than music. I.e., is the dialog and detail significantly better, or not.

One Caveat for a speaker like the Sierra (or any other speaker in its size category with its extended bass response) is the power required.

My 170 SE's are much easier to drive than are the Sierras ... if one is thinking of upgrading to the Sierras, look into a good power amp.

Fortunately, there are some inexpensive upgrades over the typical receiver - the Emotiva LPA-1 being one of those upgrades for $500.

My Onkyo 805 drives 3 Sierra-1's, 2 170-SE's and 2 M&K SS-500's *just* fine.

Craigsub, I will also be upgrading my AVR (presently a Pio 1014) this fall, the most likely contender at present being the Onkyo 805, though I do want to wait to see how the Pio Elites compare. Surely the 805 would be sufficient for the Sierras in a ~2000 cu ft room, right?

The 805 has plenty of juice millerwill.

If you are crossing the Sierras into a sub, yes, the Onkyo will work fine. The Sierras just happen to be good enough that they warrant a separate power amp.

Have you considered keeping the Pioneer, and getting a dedicated amp ?

I have tried the Sierras both ways ... the amp does make them sing.

When Curtis reads this he'll be able to answer.......
It is hard to qualify something like this for someonelse. While I think there would be a noticeable difference in HT, I can't say it would be worth it for you. Heck, I notice a difference when my kids watch their shows.

Since I get more enjoyment from music, and this is where I do more critical listening, for HT, I would tend to suggest others to stick to what they have if they are happy with it, and spend the money elsewhere.

One Caveat for a speaker like the Sierra (or any other speaker in its size category with its extended bass response) is the power required.

My 170 SE's are much easier to drive than are the Sierras ... if one is thinking of upgrading to the Sierras, look into a good power amp.

Fortunately, there are some inexpensive upgrades over the typical receiver - the Emotiva LPA-1 being one of those upgrades for $500.
I think all of the Ascends reflect the quality of the power/components before them. Like Craig says, I think the Sierras will reflect quality power more because they are less efficient than the 170SE's and 340SE's. By quality of power, I don't necessarily mean more power....I think Craig would agree with this.

I know this gets into the arena of amps sounding the same or not.

One way the Sierra will be an improvement for HT is the center speaker. Dialogue is much more clear with the Sierra--I used to own the 340.

One way the Sierra will be an improvement for HT is the center speaker. Dialogue is much more clear with the Sierra--I used to own the 340.
In your room, I think that has a lot to do with the crossover and symmetrical off-axis FR of the Sierra.

Didn't you find a definite improvement with the center too?

It is amazing how much better the Sierras sound in my room--I wish we had compared them to the 340s here. I suspect the difference in my room would be greater than in yours.

Yes I did....but like you said, I think you got more of an improvement.

Let's not forget to give some credit to Audyssey.

Let's not forget to give some credit to Audyssey.
I think there was improvement before Audyssey. With it, I think the bass and mid-bass cleaned up nicely.

Now I need to do some treatments and run Audyssey again.

I guess upgrading the electronics would be next.

Of course I could add on to the front of the house and design a much nicer HT and/or music room. Damn ungradeitis.

When we both have some free time, I could bring over my amp for us to experiment.

Hmmmmm...sounds fun...and dangerous.

These speakers do make my receiver work a lot harder.

I see a business opportunity. The market is crying out for this product, why not give it a go, and see what you come up with?

Ughh, I wish. Not sure if that is sarcasm, but I really think there is a huge opportunity for someone to pull this off...someone utilizing a speaker like that with those prices would become famous.

Ughh, I wish. Not sure if that is sarcasm, but I really think there is a huge opportunity for someone to pull this off...someone utilizing a speaker like that with those prices would become famous.
And probably bankrupt in a very short amount of time.

As usual, I'm always available and interested, and would love to hear the Sierras. :)


I want to hear these as well !

Even though it seems that most people are anti premium drivers, I'd still like to see a affordable bookshelf or floorstander utilizing a D3004, a pair of 7 or 8" seas excel, scanspeak revelators, or accuton woofers, and something like a accuton C44 midrange with some really kick ass crossovers...of course this is a lot to the consumer, but to a major manufacturer, they get really excellent prices...the drivers for a pair of speakers would cost probably under $800-900 if I've assumed correctly..just for the drivers. That means with cabinet costs, crossovers, paying off all business costs, and wanting a profit..you could get away with selling these speakers for under $2,500 and still be profitable right? I mean, SVS is getting away with using a d3004 and a peerless hds 6.5" in a $1k bookshelf, I think this is possible?

Why hasn't anyone done that before? I know SVS is kind of starting to do it, I mean $1k is really cheap for the amount of cost going in to it, but still.....I have a prediction that if someone here pulled this off, like ascend or axiom or something, they'd get alot of interest, no?? Maybe I'm talking outa my ass. I'd buy em.

If you want something with these drivers mainstream...your spending like $10k+.

And yes there are a few different kind of DIY, people who value finding a great cheaper driver and people who like to splurge a little on something ridiculous.

Ughh, I wish. Not sure if that is sarcasm, but I really think there is a huge opportunity for someone to pull this off...someone utilizing a speaker like that with those prices would become famous.

Some are already using what you consider 'best' drivers. Of course, what you mean by best/better is still closely related to retail price, but there's some who are using the expensive drivers you seem to crave.

For example, Tyler is using SEAS Millenium tweeter and 7 inch magnesium driver http://www.tyleracoustics.com/linbrook.html . ACI is using the scanspeak revelator http://www.audioc.com/speakers1/sapphirexl/sapphirexl.htm . Salk speakers are using SEAS Excel drivers http://www.salksound.com/ht1.shtml.

But like was said before, you completely missed the point Ascend made in his last post. I'm not sure how you managed to do it as I thought it was very clearly explained.

As said, if you really want, you can buy the same drivers, download (free!!!) software which will 'design' the crossover for you, tell you the port size, the enclosure size, and you can build the speakers yourself. You will spend less money than if you bought from one of the above companies, and you will have the exact drivers you want. But speaker design is more than that. With the Sierra you get an exclusive cabinet and a unique design by DF. But you don't get what you read some say were the BEST drivers, so if that's what you want, you might as well get another pair of speakers.

You still think to seem that the key to making great speakers is buying expensive drivers and sticking them in a box. If you think that's the case, then go DIY, or buy from whoever is using the drivers you think are better. (And if you care to elaborate on exactly makes you think which drivers are the best, it would be great, seems that you're just relying on some random people online who said: "This is the best driver!")

Still, I'd be curious to know how the Sierra-1s compare to speakers such the ACI Sapphire XL. 1700$ vs 850$, but both Piano black with original cabinets. The ACI has always been well reviewed, but it would be interesting to see how it compares to the Ascend. It would be a good example to see how the custom woofer holds up to the Revelator and the modified tweaked Ascend SEAS to the ACI tweeter.

Anyhow, most who bought the Sierras I'm sure wouldn't have bought the ACI instead given that it's more than twice the price. In my case at least, I really don't care about component cost, what matters to me is end performance. The Sierras really offers great performance for the price, which I find a lot more interesting than saying "my speakers use very expensive drivers!!". They really give a great value for your money, and if they cost twice more because they used the most expensive drivers, their cost/performance ratio would be severely weakened. You can read on Ascend's website "about us" or something like that their 'mission' (http://ascendacoustics.com/pages/about/mission.html)

Our pledge at Ascend Acoustics is to create the highest quality and most affordable loudspeakers available today. Ascend will bridge the gap between value brands and overpriced high-end brands. We will bring, and continue to bring, the high-end audio experience previously not affordable to most consumers, into the homes of our loyal and future customers.
If you want the most expensive drivers, you're probably looking at the wrong place.

I think that Andy missed the point because he is still equating price with quality. Until he disabuses himself of the notion that it cost more therefore it must be better he'll never see that paying more is not a guarantee of performance. It would help if he would do a little research into speaker design and construction as well. I don't think he can even name the parameters that make one driver "better" than another, other than price and other people's opinions.

You guys.. Stop feeding the troll...

If you are crossing the Sierras into a sub, yes, the Onkyo will work fine. The Sierras just happen to be good enough that they warrant a separate power amp.

Have you considered keeping the Pioneer, and getting a dedicated amp ?

I have tried the Sierras both ways ... the amp does make them sing.

Thanks Craigsub, cschang, mziegler, and others for your replies. I did forget to mention that I have a SVS PB10 sub along with the 340's LCR (and 200's as surrounds), so the better base response of the Sierras is perhaps not so important; and it also perhaps relieves the AVR of some of its power requirements. The comments about the Sierras that most attracted my attention were praises for their clarity, etc., in dialog, though the 340's are of course already extremely good in this regard. Just trying to get an idea is the Sierras are really a major improvement in this aspect, which is so critical for HT. And I do appreciate that the only way to REALLY know is to order them and a hearing; but just trying to do the homework before going to that stage.

....so the better base response of the Sierras is perhaps not so important;
I can tell you that the quality of the bass on the Sierras is outstanding. IMO, with my Hsu VTF-3.3.....if I cross at 80hz, I lose some sound quality, at 60hz it is much better. In many cases, I would rather run without a sub, but I can not easily change configurations with my pre/pro.

If I had a JL A Fathom.....things would be different. :)

I can tell you that the quality of the bass on the Sierras is outstanding. IMO, with my Hsu VTF-3.3.....if I cross at 80hz, I lose some sound quality, at 60hz it is much better.

Hmmm. The Onkyo 805 allows one to set the x-over frequency differently for each speaker. Would it be (sonically) OK to set it at 60 hz for the LCR Sierras, and at 80 (or even 100) hz for the 4 HTM200's that are the side and rear surrounds?

Hmmm. The Onkyo 805 allows one to set the x-over frequency differently for each speaker. Would it be (sonically) OK to set it at 60 hz for the LCR Sierras, and at 80 (or even 100) hz for the 4 HTM200's that are the side and rear surrounds?
That's basicly what I do......60hz for the Sierras up front, 80hz for the 170SE surrounds.

I really wish I had a direct mode that did not do any bass management with a press of one button....but I don't.

paying more is not a guarantee of performance.
True, and paying less is not a garauntee of value.

For those that are doing level matched blind tests, what are you using for a switch? I would like to do this but don't know of any that don't affect the impedance unless they are custom built (at around 1k).

Craigsub, I will also be upgrading my AVR (presently a Pio 1014) this fall, the most likely contender at present being the Onkyo 805, though I do want to wait to see how the Pio Elites compare. Surely the 805 would be sufficient for the Sierras in a ~2000 cu ft room, right?
I picked up an Elite 55txi and I'm running the Sierras w/o a sub in a 2-channel setup with no problem. I haven't run them fiercely loud for long periods of time, but I do like it pretty loud and the Elite keeps up just fine. That being said, I'm going to hook up my Anthem MCA-20 (225wpc) and see how the Sierras like the extra power. They aren't very efficient and my guess is that they'd love some extra juice.

Maybe another amp is in my future...[/wife killing me]

J.

For those that are doing level matched blind tests, what are you using for a switch? I would like to do this but don't know of any that don't affect the impedance unless they are custom built (at around 1k).

If you are looking for a cheap way, my buddy just uses the A/B switches on his integrated amp.

If you are looking for a cheap way, my buddy just uses the A/B switches on his integrated amp.
Then what do you do about level matching?

For those that are doing level matched blind tests, what are you using for a switch? I would like to do this but don't know of any that don't affect the impedance unless they are custom built (at around 1k).
I'm using my Denon 5805 mkII and it's selectable surround A/B feature. Just assign one set of speakers to Surround A, the other to Surround B, turn off all the other speakers, put the 5805 into 7 channel stereo mode after level matching and bingo, use the spkr select button on the 5805's remote and you're good to go.

dc

I think that Andy missed the point because he is still equating price with quality. Until he disabuses himself of the notion that it cost more therefore it must be better he'll never see that paying more is not a guarantee of performance. It would help if he would do a little research into speaker design and construction as well. I don't think he can even name the parameters that make one driver "better" than another, other than price and other people's opinions.

Excuse me..but do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Go search the web and audiogon...find speakers costing between $30,000-200,000...as you will notice, many of them feature very nice scanspeak, accuton, and seas drivers...why is that, you may ask? Could it be a gimmick? Hrm....I don't know?!?! I'm baffled!! Yes...there is a reason they don't use value drivers. Although, these guys also make cabinets that look like the work of the gods. Still, if they could get away with charging $50,000 for a simple 2-way speaker with some accuton drivers, modest cabinetry, and obviously very nice crossovers.. there must be a reason, and it isn't the amount of money they spent to make it.

One of these internet direct companies should get smart, spend like $1,000 on nice, well respected drivers and really expensive, over the top crossovers, charge like $2,500-3,000 for the whole deal. Of course, by my guesstimation, a nice 2-way bookshelf would cost as low as $650, $700..from what I hear, you can get away with charging 2-3 times that, so like $2,000. SVS offers that new bookshelf with the D3004 and peerless HDS for only $1,000..I assume $1,750 would buy you nicer crossovers, revelator, and cabinet. I don't know?

Excuse me..but do you have any idea what you're talking about?

Looks like he does, but you don't. Yet you continue your drivel about using expensive drivers, even after many people explained to you why it's not the good way to approach speaker design.

I think that Andy missed the point because he is still equating price with quality. Until he disabuses himself of the notion that it cost more therefore it must be better he'll never see that paying more is not a guarantee of performance. It would help if he would do a little research into speaker design and construction as well. I don't think he can even name the parameters that make one driver "better" than another, other than price and other people's opinions.
I'm sure he can't either. Andy, reread Ascend's post, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11162482&&#post11162482 it'll answer your questions.

Just in the first line lies your explanation:

- So why does seas, a huge corporation, charge $35 for the 29TFF/W and $80 for the T25CF-001 (excel tweeter)??
- It is simple really – because one technology is more expensive to implement than another. One tweeter uses an array of neodymium magnets in the motor assembly and another uses a ferrite magnet. Neodymium is expensive when compared to ferrite. Both are magnet materials, neodymium offers a stronger magnetic field per gram of metal than ferrite, thus allowing smaller magnets -- at the sacrifice of cooling. More expensive technology does not necessarily mean better.
- Sure, I could have used the Millennium (or even the Crescendo), charged $100 more per pair and then used that feature to help market the Sierra, but that is not what this speaker (or Ascend for that matter) is about. The Millennium does not have the integrated wave guide which I needed for controlling dispersion, it has a shallower roll off which would have had to be compensated for in the crossover (requiring additional crossover parts which would have compromised performance) and the spectral decay (a tweeter specification that is most critical to me) is not as clean… Why would anyone want to pay $100 more for a speaker that actually offers lesser performance? I know the answer to this question and it is not Ascend customers, and those are who I design for.... I am not saying that the tweeter we use is *better* than the Millennium, however, it is, a better tweeter when considering the specifications that were important to the design of the Sierra-1…. There wasn’t even a close second (at any price point)…


I'm also starting to think you're trolling, or you simply can't seem to grasp that more expensive isn't necessarily better. Either way, you're just wasting your breath. Using expensive drivers isn't the key to building great speakers. You think it is, but it's not.

One of these internet direct companies should get smart, spend like $1,000 on nice, well respected drivers and really expensive, over the top crossovers, charge like $2,500-3,000 for the whole deal.
:rolleyes: Yeah all the stupid speaker designers haven't thought about it. You really came up with a truly revolutionary idea. They should all take YOUR advice, obviously you're so schooled in speaker design, and use the drivers that YOU think are so good. Of course, you've experimented a lot with these drivers, you've measured them, and you've had a lot of experience with them.

The key is also in using "really expensive, over the top crossovers", they're so clueless, they haven't caught up on that either... They don't know that using really expensive crossovers is the key to making a great loudspeakers. Also they're all using drivers which aren't respected... How lame. I'm telling you my friend, take the advice that was given to you earlier, start your own company and revolutionize the speaker industry. Show them how it should be done and become a millionaire in the process.

Excuse me..but do you have any idea what you're talking about?

One of these internet direct companies should get smart, spend like $1,000 on nice, well respected drivers and really expensive, over the top crossovers, charge like $2,500-3,000 for the whole deal.

Hmmm, let's see, do I know what I'm talking about? Well, I'll let you in on a little secret, the best crossovers are often the simplest crossovers, sometimes consisting of little more than a zobel network. They are not over the top super expensive designs. Again more exensive does not automatically equal better.

I'm not going to post my Audio resume to try and prove to you that I know what I'm talking about. Ascend's resume is far more impressive and he's already given you a better explanation than I ever could about why you might pick a less expensive driver over a more expensive one and about how the whole and one's design goals are more important than the cost of a single component.

Go search the web and audiogon...find speakers costing between $30,000-200,000...as you will notice, many of them feature very nice scanspeak, accuton, and seas drivers...why is that, you may ask? Could it be a gimmick? Hrm....I don't know?!?! I'm baffled!! Yes...there is a reason they don't use value drivers. Although, these guys also make cabinets that look like the work of the gods. Still, if they could get away with charging $50,000 for a simple 2-way speaker with some accuton drivers, modest cabinetry, and obviously very nice crossovers.. there must be a reason, and it isn't the amount of money they spent to make it.The reason is that there are people out there who have far more dollars than sense. If you buy a toilet bowl made of 14K gold, will it help you crap any better? No, but there are people who will spend money on things like that, so there will be a market that is happy to serve them.

The reason is that there are people out there who have far more dollars than sense. If you buy a toilet bowl made of 14K gold, will it help you crap any better? No, but there are people who will spend money on things like that, so there will be a market that is happy to serve them.

But it gives new meaning to the term "sitting on the throne".

One-sentence analysis of Andyisc00l:

He wants the feeling of owning something really expensive without suffering the great expense. Or, to compare to cars:

"Ferrari is the most expensive and therefore best car around. I don't want a Honda even if it can perform just as well. I want a ferrari, and I can't afford one. But I know that ferrari's don't REALLY cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to make. So I want someone to build me a car using all the same parts as a Ferrari and only charge me what the parts are worth".

One-sentence analysis of Andyisc00l:

He wants the feeling of owning something really expensive without suffering the great expense. Or, to compare to cars:

"Ferrari is the most expensive and therefore best car around. I don't want a Honda even if it can perform just as well. I want a ferrari, and I can't afford one. But I know that ferrari's don't REALLY cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to make. So I want someone to build me a car using all the same parts as a Ferrari and only charge me what the parts are worth".

LOL!

Anyone want to explain to him diminished returns on speakers when chasing that last 5-10% of "perfection."

Good god you guys have way to much time on your hands.

Obviously I must be touching a nerve to get a response like this. Jeeze..I must be a troll. Notice how I use the names..I don't care how much they cost at all...these are considered "premium drivers"..meaning people in the DIY world use these drivers when they aren't concerned about money. I was merely stating it is enterily possible to make something like this and get a profit while only charging like $3,000-3,500 for a 3-way floorstander. You need around $50,000+ to get that in the real world when it isn't internet direct. I thought the whole point of internet direct was to offer things others can't?

Haven't you guys noticed all these internet direct companies with $3,000-5,000 speakers that use just generic drivers. They could be using premium drivers instead and it WOULD COST THE SAME TO THE CONSUMER AND SOUND BETTER. And yea...$3,500 floorstander 3-way with premium drivers...they still make a huge, huge margin.



And for the record...these drivers wouldn't exist unless there was a lot of people who would use them. If everyone was like you, and didn't think outside of their own existance, there would be no need.


And stop using the argument "he only cares about money"...for the last friggen time, I've explained this 10,000 times..I don't. The scanspeak revaltors and accuton ceramic drives...these are considered to be the best, the premium drivers. Think outside of your own existance.


I mean are you guys morons? Do you understand what I'm saying? It isn't like all these internet direct companies offer speakers below $1,000. They offer speakers costing $4,000 and above. Are you going to accuse those people of spending too much?? NO...but they can offer $3,500 speakers utilizing premium drivers and still make a huge profit.

Good god you guys have way to much time on your hands.

Obviously I must be touching a nerve to get a response like this. Jeeze..I must be a troll. Notice how I use the names..I don't care how much they cost at all...these are considered "premium drivers"..meaning people in the DIY world use these drivers when they aren't concerned about money. I was merely stating it is enterily possible to make something like this and get a profit while only charging like $3,000-3,500 for a 3-way floorstander. You need around $50,000+ to get that in the real world when it isn't internet direct. I thought the whole point of internet direct was to offer things others can't?

Haven't you guys noticed all these internet direct companies with $3,000-5,000 speakers that use just generic drivers. They could be using premium drivers instead and it WOULD COST THE SAME TO THE CONSUMER AND SOUND BETTER. And yea...$3,500 floorstander 3-way with premium drivers...they still make a huge, huge margin.



And for the record...these drivers wouldn't exist unless there was a lot of people who would use them. If everyone was like you, and didn't think outside of their own existance, there would be no need.


And stop using the argument "he only cares about money"...for the last friggen time, I've explained this 10,000 times..I don't. The scanspeak revaltors and accuton ceramic drives...these are considered to be the best, the premium drivers. Think outside of your own existance.


I mean are you guys morons? Do you understand what I'm saying? It isn't like all these internet direct companies offer speakers below $1,000. They offer speakers costing $4,000 and above. Are you going to accuse those people of spending too much?? NO...but they can offer $3,500 speakers utilizing premium drivers and still make a huge profit.

Please stop responding to this guy so this thread can get back on topic. If he wants to troll, let him do it in another thread, that I don't care about. He has already wasted a couple pages of this thread.

As for me, I am pretty sure I am going to buy three Sierra's for the fronts, and a couple of 200's for the sides. My room is wired for 7.1, but I have not decided if I am going to get another pair of 200's for the rears or not.

Randy

I can't take avsforum any more.

I don't care what you guys think, if I become a millionaire...I guarentee you I will fund a internet direct company using these drivers..

it may have not been easy back in the day, but with the internet..there is a reason I think one of these guys should pull it off.



Consider my account deleted. Good day.

Good grief, I hope that's the end of that.

Anyways, I've done some comparison between the Sierras and some Polk LSI7s that I borrowed from Fry's. =)

The Polks are nice speakers. Their sound is a little bit warmer than the Sierras. What I mean is that the treble is a little more subdued compared to the bass. I definitely don't consider the Sierras bright at all. It's more like the Polks seem a little thick in the midrange. This can make some music or movies sound a little fuller. For example, I was watching this movie Major Payne on HD and Damon Wayans uses this squeally voice. The Polks made his voice a little deeper and less annoying compared to the Sierras. However, when I listened to Nora Jones, the Sierras sounded cleaner. With the Polks, it sounded like Nora Jones had a bit of a cold.

The Sierras definitely extend deeper in the bass, however, than the Polks. For most music you could listen to the Sierras without a sub. With the Polks, however, I felt a little something was missing.

Another difference I heard was in the upper bass, lower midrange. The Sierras just had more detail. This was easy to hear in music with drums. With the Sierras, each hit is clear and has impact. With the Polks, the hits are blended together more with less clarity.

)

Hope I made some sense...


Wow, this is an awesome informative post.

It's things like this that made me buy Ascend in the first place.

It's kinda funny because if you visit the DIY section, you get an impression from them that says they know how to do it better and cheaper.

And while that may be true in some cases, you can't discredit educated people that have been doing it at a high level, professionally, for decades.

Bravo sir.
:)

I can't take avsforum any more.

I don't care what you guys think, if I become a millionaire...I guarentee you I will fund a internet direct company using these drivers..

it may have not been easy back in the day, but with the internet..there is a reason I think one of these guys should pull it off.



Consider my account deleted. Good day.In case you missed it, this is an Ascend Acoustics Sierra thread, and it's official to boot. :)

What you're talking about here is off-topic. No need to delete your account. Just take it to the appropriate forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=155

There you can speculate all you want about drivers, crossovers, starting your own company, etc. This is an ASCEND ACOUSTICS SIERRA thread.

I don't care what you guys think, if I become a millionaire...I guarentee you I will fund a internet direct company using these drivers..


And when they don't sound as good as the Ascends will you be surprised when no one buys them?

question for all of you who are using the sierra behind an AT screen. With the piano finish, have you been able to see them during bright scenes? Im worried that the glare from the finish will ruin the experience.... Has this been a problem for anyone?