***The Official Ascend Acoustics Sierra Thread*** [Text View] - Page 3

DreamCatcher

08-03-07, 02:37 PM

Hi guys
I have seen this question before, but I thought I would try again.

What stands have you bought for the Sierra's?

I specificially asked for "bought", because I don't have the ability to make something nice enough for my HT/family room, where these will reside. This room adjoins our just remodeled breakfast room/kitchen, which cost a small fortune, so the stands need to look nice.

Also looking for something I can add sand to, for extra weight and better sound.

I think my budget is up to $200, but cheaper is better ;)

Hope you don't mind a Sierra related question here ;) ;)

Randy
Wow a Sierra related question, what a concept :)
I ask Ascend about stands they would recommend and what height.
Their response:

"Thanks for the inquiry and I hope all is well!

We generally recommend a stand height from 24" to 30".. As a rule of
thumb, it is ideal if the tweeter is at ear-level when you are seated
in
your listening position -- although this is a bit less critic due to
the
OPPIX feature of the Sierra crossover.

With ear-level height of 36", your ideal stand height is 24".

Take care and have a nice weekend!

Good Sound To You!
ASCEND ACOUSTICS, INC.

David Fabrikant"

Hope this helps

dc

SteveLD

08-03-07, 02:54 PM

Can you post a picture or two?
Sure thing. After I apply the last coast of the satin polyurethane to the wood today and get it assembled I'll snap some pics. I basically suspened it from a shelf I had already in place (done by my fiance's dad) to help support the plasma tv.

SteveLD

08-03-07, 06:42 PM

I got the Sierras today, and these things look amazing! They are breath taking in person, IMHO. The pictures don't really do these things justice. The center channel does have a small scratch though. Does anyone know if one of the auto detailing pens to cover/fill in fine scratches will work?

DreamCatcher

08-03-07, 11:42 PM

Randybes

08-04-07, 12:20 PM

I'm using my Denon 5805 mkII and it's selectable surround A/B feature. Just assign one set of speakers to Surround A, the other to Surround B, turn off all the other speakers, put the 5805 into 7 channel stereo mode after level matching and bingo, use the spkr select button on the 5805's remote and you're good to go.

dcCan I borrow it :D

SteveLD

08-05-07, 03:04 PM

Here are some pictures of the shelf I built, to help support the TV and then suspend the center channel speaker underneath. This is what I came up with given the entertainment center is built-in to the house.

smendick

08-06-07, 04:15 PM

mziegler

08-07-07, 05:21 PM

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/bookshelf/ascend-acoustics-sierra-1

rossandwendy

08-07-07, 06:25 PM

Any of you Ascend Sierra owners find them to sound a little bright?

Do any of you have regrets about purchasing them?

I am ready for an upgrade from my CBM-170SE's which have been pretty good, but sometimes I yearn for a little less brightness and harshness in the high frequencies and would enjoy a bit more warmth in the mid-bass, but not sure if the Sierras would solve that. The measurements in the Audioholics review would indicate that slight brightness may still be a problem for my ears.

Thanks for your feedback Sierra owners!
-Ross

cschang

08-07-07, 06:42 PM

The Sierra's treble is definitely more refined than the 170SE, as is the overall package, and not bright at all to my ears. Better imaging, better seperation, and bigger soundstage.

As for warmth, if you are looking for more mid-bass emphasis, I am not sure you will find that in the Sierras.

If you are unhappy with the overall toneality of the 170SE, the Sierras don't stray much if at all from the family. You would be happier looking elsewhere...I would suggest the Usher V-601.

hdmi4ever

08-07-07, 06:45 PM

I am ready for an upgrade from my CBM-170SE's which have been pretty good, but sometimes I yearn for a little less brightness and harshness in the high frequencies and would enjoy a bit more warmth in the mid-bass, but not sure if the Sierras would solve that.The brightness problem might be due to too many hard surfaces in your room.

rossandwendy

08-07-07, 07:00 PM

Curtis, I should clarify that I do not at all care for a bloated bass/mid-bass, but my 170's have come across as a bit lean to me and lacking mid-bass impact/power. I was hoping that 340SE's with their dual woofers or especially the Sierras with the many comments of their punchy bass would be a nice upgrade over the mid-bass of the 170's.

hdmi4ever, I think you may be right that too many hard surfaces are part (if not all) of the problem. I move in about two weeks so will see how the system sounds in the new room which so far already seems to have less brightness to it due to thicker carpet/pad and full insulation in all interior walls.

I have also wondered if my H/K 340 receiver is partly to blame, although the brand seems to have a widespread reputation for having an enjoyable warm sound and is recommended/sold by Ascend themselves.

-Ross

cschang

08-07-07, 07:10 PM

xcjago

08-07-07, 09:49 PM

Ya, I thought you were supposed to get them yesterday. What gives Ross? Or is it Wendy? Hmmmm... :)

p.s. We need pictures too. :)

shanemcr

08-08-07, 12:49 AM

Any comments/suggestions about how far Sierras should be from the wall behind them? I see that they're backported. My application would be one on a shelf and one on a stand. Thx

cschang

08-08-07, 01:26 AM

Any comments/suggestions about how far Sierras should be from the wall behind them? I see that they're backported. My application would be one on a shelf and one on a stand. Thx
I think that is pretty much how mziegler uses his.

If you are using a sub, and crossing at 60 or 80hz, the port does not really come into play.

rossandwendy

08-08-07, 01:30 AM

Ya, I thought you were supposed to get them yesterday. What gives Ross? Or is it Wendy? Hmmmm... :)

p.s. We need pictures too. :)
I really wish I had chosen a different username as this is not the first time I have been razzed about 'Ross' or 'Wendy' on this forum :rolleyes: Incidentally I am Ross and my wonderful wife Wendy would never be caught dead on an audio forum. I myself will be dead if she catches on to all the gear I have been ordering lately :(

Things are real hectic right now as we are preparing to close on a new home and move in just a few days, but I will try to post pics of the D2.1SE's tomorrow (probably in the official Swans owners thread so as not to go off topic here).

shanemcr

08-08-07, 01:40 AM

I think that is pretty much how mziegler uses his.

If you are using a sub, and crossing at 60 or 80hz, the port does not really come into play.

No sub. This is for a stereo-only setup in my kitchen/dining/living area.

rossandwendy

08-08-07, 01:52 AM

Ahhh...OK. Understood...and yes, the 340SE and Sierra would satisfy this concern.

I thought from the other thread you were set on the Swan D.2.1SE's? I was hoping to get your take on them since you familiar with the 170SE.

You are correct, and the Swan D2.1SE's did indeed arrive yesterday, but I need more time with them before I can form an accurate opinion. And I can't help but wonder if I would be just as happy with upgrading my 170 mains to 340's (already use the 340C and really like it for HT), or stepping up to the Sierras based on all the raves.

What I'm concerned about with the more revealing Sierras and D2.1SE's is that my H/K receiver may no longer cut it in terms of sound quality and power. Upgrading to seperates would be extremely difficult to pull off due to lack of spousal understanding regarding audio matters, whereas I'm quite sure the H/K would continue to work just fine if I got the 340's.

This is the trouble I get into from reading this forum :)

-Ross

cschang

08-08-07, 02:02 AM

Well....allow me to confuse you more.....the 340SE's are easier to drive than the 170SE's.

rossandwendy

08-08-07, 02:25 AM

Well....allow me to confuse you more.....the 340SE's are easier to drive than the 170SE's.
Right, the fact that the 340's are more efficient has not escaped me and I think they would be a nice upgrade at a very sane price, and I'd be able to move my 170's to the surrounds to replace the HTM-200's so an upgrade there as well and another boost in efficiency and overall dynamic headroom.

Bloodstone

08-08-07, 02:43 AM

rossandwendy

08-08-07, 03:02 AM

Please, before you upgrade, or do any speaker comparison, invest in some room treatments. Especially if we are talking about a dedicated room. I promise it will prove to be the best upgrade you could ever imagine. You may just be happy with the 170s. If you have a bad room, especially a small one, just about any speaker will sound bright and incoherant. The worst thing you could do is audition a pair of monitors in an empty room of a new house.

No, I won't be auditioning speakers in an empty room LOL! The new room is 2500 c.f. and will be fully furnished and is a much better space acoustically than where I have been listening for the last 2 years. About $1000-$1500 of room treatments are in my master plan but such ideas have to be slowly and carefully introduced to She Who Must Be Obeyed ;)

sterankoman

08-08-07, 08:20 AM

No, I won't be auditioning speakers in an empty room LOL! The new room is 2500 c.f. and will be fully furnished and is a much better space acoustically than where I have been listening for the last 2 years. About $1000-$1500 of room treatments are in my master plan but such ideas have to be slowly and carefully introduced to She Who Must Be Obeyed ;)

I like the reference to Rumpole of the Bailey. Leo McKern use to utter that line every episode about his beloved. Love the dry English humor.

sterankoman

08-08-07, 04:25 PM

There is a glowing review of the Sierra 1's that came out yesterday.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/bookshelf/ascend-acoustics-sierra-1

Andyisc00l

08-10-07, 05:18 AM

For the morons arguing earlier..I'm sorry IrritateGuy for using this example..I know this guy hates me and thinks I want to steal his speaker designs and yes these designs are copyrighted, lol.

http://forums.soundandvisionmag.com/audiovideo/board/message?board.id=57&thread.id=10322

Don't even go after the credibility of this guy he is a genius.

Ugh $850 including $20 an hour labor..$600 per speaker.
"At a manufacturing cost of about $850 per speaker, if I were to sell these via retail I would need to set a retail price of about $2,400 per speaker, or $4,800 a pair, to make them profitable and sellable.

I think my main speakers sound better than any speaker I have ever heard in my life, including mosters selling for over $50,000 pair, so I figure they are a good deal. "

Literally, this would cost a larger manufacturer under $600 a pair for parts instead of his $1200 if I guessed right. So it would be much cheaper then a individual would have to sell.

He uses a pair of morel supremes and 6" Skannings. The tweeters cost $330 a pair and the Skanning costs $300 for each woofer.

Clearly premium drivers have a say in something.

Von Schweikert only uses seas excel woofers and scan speak tweeters in speakers costing over $25,000. Would that be because he can't put them in $5,000 or $12,000 pairs of speakers since the drivers cost soooooooooo much?

No. If he used them in his lower priced line why would anyone buy his higher priced line?

And yes.

For the record someone should friggen do this.. come on internet direct companies. do itttttt.

Grandarf

08-10-07, 07:15 AM

Sean Max

08-10-07, 03:46 PM

:rolleyes:

Lindahl

08-10-07, 04:15 PM

Von Schweikert only uses seas excel woofers and scan speak tweeters in speakers costing over $25,000. Would that be because he can't put them in $5,000 or $12,000 pairs of speakers since the drivers cost soooooooooo much? No. If he used them in his lower priced line why would anyone buy his higher priced line?

Nice idea, but the logic is flawed. The fact is that uber-drivers are only a very small margin better than more modestly priced drivers in the $30-$80 range. When designing an uber-speaker, you're spending so much on designing the perfect speaker and you're charging so much (economies of scale), that it makes perfect sense to spend just a small fraction more to get the absolute best drivers, even if the improvement is minute. When designing a lesser speaker, it makes a lot more sense to sink that money into the design and improve the speaker exponentially (due to economies of scale), as opposed to spending more for a miniscule amount of improvement via uber-drivers.

The same logic applies when you approach an uber-DIY speaker. There's little reason not to pay top dollar for the drivers. You're building them once, as you're uber-speaker, so why not go all out? You can always rehash the design later, if there's something you want to touch up (design perfection). Buy the best for a bit more, and the drivers will last you a lifetime, through any number of different designs you try out.

For the record someone should friggen do this.. come on internet direct companies. do itttttt.

Having analyzed the performance of a few woofers and tweeters, it's not worth it. It's much better to spend this money on the design of the speaker, as a whole. This is Ascend's no-nonsense approach, and I like it (even if I don't own a pair). It's all about investing the money where they'll see the most improvement. I just wish they had a walnut finish. :D

rossandwendy

08-10-07, 06:32 PM

For the morons arguing earlier...

Classy. Dude, I thought you said a few days ago you were going to cancel your AVS account and never be heard from again?? :rolleyes:

floridapoolboy

08-10-07, 06:51 PM

It's common knowledge that higher priced speakers are not automatically better sounding speakers, so why should it be different with higher priced drivers? Think about it, if it were that simple then buy the highest priced drivers, the most expensive cross-overs, and place them in the most esoteric enclosure ever, and you'll have the best sounding speaker in the world, right? Yeah, and I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I'll throw in, cheap!

shanemcr

08-10-07, 11:14 PM

I'm considering a pair of the Sierras for 100% music listening in my dining/kitchen/living area. The best location I can find would end up with one on a shelf and one on a stand. In both places I can probably have about 6" of clearance from the back wall.

So here's my question: How would I mount the speaker on a stand? Is there a hole in the bottom for a screw to, er, screw into? I looked at some stands and it appears they come with screws to do this, but is this a standard feature of speakers this size? I'm a noob when it comes to small speakers.

Any stand recommendations?

Thanks,

Shane

JasonColeman

08-10-07, 11:47 PM

JasonColeman

08-10-07, 11:50 PM

FWIW, I purchased the natural Sierras (which I love) and have decided to build matching stands out of bamboo. I wasn't able to find anything even close to the finish on the Sierras, and I don't like the way they look on black stands (I have a spare pair that I'm using them on), so I opted for homemade. I still haven't had a chance to get started on them, as I've gotten roped into "helping" a good friend build an oak TV stand in the interim. Hopefully I'll have the stands done in a week or two and I'll post pics.

J.

cschang

08-11-07, 12:01 AM

The Sierras have a female threaded insert on the back of the cabinet about 2 1/2" up from the bottom. I think this is intended to mate with the Omni (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/access/brackets/omni_series20.html) wall bracket they have on their site which some of their earlier speakers are designed to be mounted to. You might have a tough time finding a single stand for your speaker...no way around shelf-mounting the other?

Good luck!

J.
Nope...it is not for wall mounting, it is for attaching to Ascend's custom stands which have a back plate for attaching the speakers to the stands.

I asked about using the threaded insert for wall mounting and was advised not to do it there was any force that could pull the insert out.

JasonColeman

08-11-07, 12:13 AM

cschang

08-11-07, 12:21 AM

Ahh...I see (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/access/spkstnds/pedstlcmt340.html)... Thanks for the clarification. I don't think I've seen that kind of setup before, though it is clever. With such beefy stands, you might be hard pressed to come up with another way to couple the two. Do you use the attaching plate in your setup? Too bad they don't make them for the naturals...

J.
I have custom stands that I had built for me when I got my classic 340's, but I had them built to use the threaded insert. The threaded insert on the Sierras are in a slightly different position, but the plate that Ascend uses is sloted, so it works fine......mine is not sloted, so right now I am not using it.

shanemcr

08-11-07, 01:38 AM

Ugh. I was hoping for something much less, er, blocky than those pedestals. More like Sanus Euro (http://www.sanus.com/us/en/products/ProductDetails/line/speakerFoundations/pcat/euro/modelCode/EF28/layout/layout/) or even Ascend's SP-30 (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/access/spkstnds/sp30stands.html).

Andyisc00l

08-11-07, 02:13 AM

Andy that is absolutely amazing. "I think my main speakers sound better than any speaker I have ever heard in my life, including mosters selling for over $50,000 pair, so I figure they are a good deal. " If they really sound better that 'mosters' costing 50000$, then they're simply amazing, you also can't argue the facts of a genius. So you win.

Now back to your usual programming!
You are such a tool you can't even begin to understand.

First off, only correct someone if you feel your grammar and spelling are excellent.
Second off, to attack someone's small, small spelling/typing mistake is incredibly dumb since it has no reflection on intelligence.
And lastly, if you were to be so bold to correct someone's English, sentence structure would be something you could critique.

Let us look at your paragraph.

If they really sound better that 'mosters' costing 50000$, then they're simply amazing, you also can't argue the facts of a genius. So you win.

This is the correct sentence. (or I think it's close)

If the speakers really sound better than "mosters" costing $50,000 then they're simply amazing. You also can't argue the facts of a genius, so you win.

Also, the fact that you said "then the speakers are simply amazing" and said something dumb implying that you thought the guy was an idiot for not typing monsters correctly shows that not only were you not making sense, you might be delusional.

I took up enough of all your thread space... I apologized. Good luck.
At least it is something that is interesting and not really lame.

Nice idea, but the logic is flawed. The fact is that uber-drivers are only a very small margin better than more modestly priced drivers in the $30-$80 range. When designing an uber-speaker, you're spending so much on designing the perfect speaker and you're charging so much (economies of scale), that it makes perfect sense to spend just a small fraction more to get the absolute best drivers, even if the improvement is minute. When designing a lesser speaker, it makes a lot more sense to sink that money into the design and improve the speaker exponentially (due to economies of scale), as opposed to spending more for a miniscule amount of improvement via uber-drivers.

The same logic applies when you approach an uber-DIY speaker. There's little reason not to pay top dollar for the drivers. You're building them once, as you're uber-speaker, so why not go all out? You can always rehash the design later, if there's something you want to touch up (design perfection). Buy the best for a bit more, and the drivers will last you a lifetime, through any number of different designs you try out.
Having analyzed the performance of a few woofers and tweeters, it's not worth it. It's much better to spend this money on the design of the speaker, as a whole. This is Ascend's no-nonsense approach, and I like it (even if I don't own a pair). It's all about investing the money where they'll see the most improvement. I just wish they had a walnut finish. :D

I hope you are right. SVS is the first company I've ever seen doing something like this..when I say something like this I'm referring to the fact that they are putting in some well respected drivers and shooting for a small margin. If they fail, then who cares....but if they come out with some fantastic speakers, hopefully others will catch on. I think that was the most sarcastic thing I've said all day.

Not to be a pro-svs thing...they just happen to be the first people I've seen with the right idea. You see his speakers he made with the morel supremes and skannings? Someone could manufacture a mtm for around $1,500-2,000. His calculations were actually different then what I was thinking.

Ascend

08-11-07, 04:19 AM

Andy,

While you consider those drivers to be the "best" -- I certainly don't and I think I probably have a bit more experience than you in this matter :p

Why limit yourself with using those supposedly *better* drivers? Why not go for something even better -- or how about MUCH better? Wouldn't that be a better idea?

What about using coincident Berylium drivers? I assure you, the improvement in performance from using one of these drivers to any of the models you mentioned is far more audible than any of our drivers being compared to these *supposedly better because they cost most more* drivers?

The cost of these truly high-performance drivers run 6-10 times the cost of the "best" drivers you mentioned.

In fact, I know of bookshelf style loudspeaker at about $6K pair retail that you can probably purchase at $5K street that uses a tweeter that costs well over $1K to purchase. A speaker that uses a tweeter that retails for about 7 times more than the tweeter in SVS, yet the pair itself only costs 5 times more. Isn't that the better deal?

I think you see my point....

Andy, this thread is about the Sierra-1... Questions from forum members directed to product owners. There are other forums and other threads that are, perhaps, more appropriate places to discuss your ideas and get better feedback on your ideas.

Please respect the topic of this thread. Thank you...

JasonColeman

08-11-07, 08:47 AM

Nicely said, Dave.

BTW, though I'm sure I can look it up, what size and TPI is the threaded insert on the rear of the Sierras? I think I remember reading 10mm, but I'm not positive.

Thanks!

J.

Jake Sm

08-11-07, 09:37 AM

It's also tough to gauge the value of drivers unless you know what the manufacturing costs of them are vs. what the OEM who makes them is selling them for.
OEM''s that come up with a well designed driver frequently fetch EXTREMES IN PROFIT AND DESIGN costs from their sale, BUT when a very large speaker company comes along that wants to purchase it in QUANITY and they (the OEM) will often make a slight change or two (or NONE) AND CLAIM IT'S DIFFERANT but sell that driver to the big guy FOR A LOT LESS (disclosing this to no one else). It's also impossible to say whether the large speaker company couldn't simply reverse engineer and build the same thing THEMSELVES at pennies on the dollar. These kinds of factors and variables make it silly to look at all that...Just listen to the finished product and see who you feel is bringing the best sound to market for the price you are willing to play......If the Devil developed a dried dogpoop mid-bass driver and a styrafoam tweeter in a coardboard box that produced the music of the Gods and it cost him $4 bucks to build and he was charging $700 a pair, I wouldn't care provided it sounded that much better than the competition at that price.

rossandwendy

08-11-07, 10:24 AM

David, great post, always good to hear from you!

Andyisc00l, you have derailed the Official Ascend Sierra thread long enough - I don't exactly know what your agenda is but kindly take it elsewhere so we can get back on point.

Speaking of which, my 5 Sierras in natural are scheduled for delivery Monday. :) Figured it was time to see why all you owners are so happy, but I have all you to blame if my wife kicks me out of the house. :D I will be comparing them to my Ascend 170SE's and the Swan D2.1SE's during the next 1-2 weeks.

Natural bamboo vs. piano gloss black was a tough choice and I'm not sure I made the right one - I can see advantages to both. :confused:

Cheers,
Ross

rossandwendy

08-11-07, 10:29 AM

If the Devil developed a dried dogpoop mid-bass driver and a styrafoam tweeter in a coardboard box that produced the music of the Gods and it cost him $4 bucks to build and he was charging $700 a pair, I wouldn't care provided it sounded that much better than the competition at that price.
:D :D :D

smithb

08-11-07, 11:49 AM

Maybe we have all been approaching this the wrong way with "Andyisc001". We have all been basing our arguments on the final results not on the components that make up the product. It could be that the reason he can't understand the rationale of every other contributor to this thread is that he can't hear the difference between the different speakers. Therefore, his only method of differentiating is in the cost of the components.

muzz

08-11-07, 12:14 PM

Dave,

I want you to refund my $.......

You said these were fabulously accurate speakers, yet they don't use the highest cost components, so how could this be true?

You have fleeced me into believing that the Sierra is a first class product, and I see now that you used inferior components to fool the test eqpt. into showing good results..
I know how you did it though, when you were saving the plots, you NAMED them " Most expensive Woof and Tweeter $ can buy" !

What an underhanded tactic you used, your not fooling me!! :p

Back to listening to my lousy Sierras, and their lousy components.. ;)

Bill Mac

08-11-07, 12:37 PM

You are such a tool you can't even begin to understand.

This one line sums up this guy IMO. Best thing is to ignore and he will go away.

Bill

Bill Mac

08-11-07, 12:39 PM

muzz

08-11-07, 01:37 PM

Hey Bill,

Yeah, I'm really upset with Dave for using less expensive components,trying to get the best possible performance, and keeping the price reasonable at the same time...

What an atrocity!!

I won't stand for it any longer!!

Dave- next time use the most expensive components you can find, and make sure to charge 10X what they are worth SQ wise..
That way you will make it into the SQ Hall of Shame!! :D
Make sure that you include a disclaimer, stating that unless you use $20K speaker wires, then you won't hear what the speakers are truly capable of, and qualifies as abuse/not covered under warranty.

On a more serious note-
Bill- Everything is well here Bud- Hope everything is well there!!
You can have my Sierras, when ya pry them from my Dead Cold hands!!
I'd like to get together to compare the Sierra/140's..

TTYS

Gary

rossandwendy

08-13-07, 02:54 AM

Chako

08-13-07, 12:33 PM

Sorry if this has been asked before but I was wondering if it would be worth the cash to upgrade from the 340's to the Sierra's?

I have really been loving the 340's for everything (Movies, Music, Videogames) so is it that much better to justify the price?

Also are the having any sort of trade in deal?

Thanks!

Grandarf

08-13-07, 12:42 PM

My 2 cents.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10764737&&#post10764737

I'd still say it applies, sub, sierra bass advantage not as important. Imaging, not as important for games/HT. So for HT, not as worth as for music. Things does improve, but not that significantly, maybe not enough for all people to spend the money to upgrade, for HT. 2ch no sub, Sierra definitely better.

Bill Mac

08-13-07, 01:12 PM

I recently read of someone who had glossy reflective speakers and had to get rid of them because he found it very distracting when watching a movie as the speakers were picking up every bit of light off the television and were the brightest thing in the darkened room - have any of you Sierra/piano black owners had this problem? Any regrets by anyone on the piano finish for any reason?

Cheers,
Ross

Ross,

Good question. I had a Onix Ref 100 in Piano Black which was right under my plasma. I do not recall having issues with reflections from the PDP. But sometimes you do not notice certain things till they are brought to your attention. I would be curious what PB Sierra owners have to say as well.

Bill

Grandarf

08-13-07, 01:25 PM

No problem here, and they're sitting in front of an 84 inch projector screen, about 1/7th the bottom of the screen is at the same level as the Sierras (with the sierras being about 1 feet on either side of screen), the speakers are with a slight toe in.

With the toe in, the speakers point pretty much at the listener, so pretty much no reflection there. If there's more than one person sitting and some have more of an angle, then i think you can see a reflection on the far speaker, but I don't remember it being distracting nor have ever received any complaints... But you should be able to see some light reflection... I don't find it distracting, and don't notice my projector's 'rainbows' (color wheel) either, so YMMV.

Just mean some people get bothered by small things, others not. Maybe i don't see rainbows because I don't think of it... If I stared looking for some I'd might see them, and be bothered... Same for reflection off speakers... Probably there, but if you dont think about it, shouldn't be a problem. And with toe in, you normally don't have an angle where the PB can reflect directly the screen. Only what is in front of the speakers, which shouldn't be too bright or distracting anyhow. Unless you're pointing a flashlight at ur TV...

analogBalrog

08-13-07, 03:46 PM

At the risk of total embarrassment, I will put my pride on the shelf and ask this extremely Noobish , although quasi-Sierra-related, question: :o

I'm currently using 2 Sony SSMF650H (http://google-cnet.com.com/separate-speakers/sony-ss-mf650h-speaker/4014-7869_9-30468995.html#p5) speakers in 2-channel in a stereo setup for TV/Movies and some (but not a lot of) music. I consider myself an audiophile in the headphone side of things, but obviously haven't made solid steps in the speaker realm yet.

I'm in the works of putting together my first Home Theatre in a rather large room with projector/movie screen, etc. I've posted on some different forums about advice, but somehow I'm still up in the air as to what to do.

So here goes the Sierra question:

With budget in mind ( :rolleyes: ) as well as considering the Sony speakers I've acclimated to for the last few years, which of the Ascend setups below would make more sense for me? Would either or both of them blow my mind in comparison to the Sony's? Mind you, I'd like to add to the system down the road, but budget-wise, this is all I can do right now:

340 LCR / 170 Surrounds / (all 5 will need stands purchased; I'm no handyman)

or

Sierra-1 LCR / (all 3 will need stands purchased; ditto)

Yeah... the age-old 340 vs. Sierra question. I'd like to build a system that will love me long time... :cool: ...but, it's hard for me to imagine what the step up from my current Sony situation to either of these setups will be like. The talk of "clarity" and "soundstage" and "imaging" in regards to both of these speaker sets gets me all weak in the knees. And as much as auditioning would help, it's really not in the cards for me. I'd like to pull the trigger on an Ascend setup, I just don't know which route to go.

Also, I should note that I'd be quite fine waiting on a sub until later (WAF plays a role there), and just have a 5.0 or 3.0 setup until that money tree I planted out back bears it's fruit. Although, I do have concerns that either route will leave me bass-starved until I can get a sub. But then again, look at what I'm used to?

I've also thought about doing an entire x-Series 5.1 setup from av123, but something tells me that the Ascend route will keep me quite happy over the years. I've looked at Swans pretty heavily too...but I keep coming back to these god-forsaken Sierras.

Any advice/thoughts/diatribes/recipes on this 80% HT / 20% Music setup would be mucho appreciatado. I really can't spend more than $1500-ish for these speakers as I need to get an AV Receiver too (Yamaha 659 vs. Onkyo 605 anybody?!) and a boat load of other electronic nonsense to make the whole theatre...theatrical.

Aaaah...budgets suck.

:D

EDIT: Fixed link

JasonColeman

08-13-07, 04:02 PM

I can't comment on the 340s, and I'm sure many others can, but the Sierras perform beautifully for me in a 2-channel no-sub setup in our large office. However, if most of your use is movies and HT, you might be better off going with a less-expensive speaker and try to pull off a 5.0 or a 5.1 with your budget.

J.

hdmi4ever

08-13-07, 06:50 PM

If you're into movies more than music, don't leave out the sub. Get a 2.1 system rather than 5.0, then over time expand the 2.1 to 3.1, 5.1, and maybe even 7.1.

muzz

08-13-07, 07:11 PM

Well considering your usage of 80/20 HT/Music (which will MOST LIKELY change with good sound- I was the same, now it's 50/50-at best, with more of a lean towards music), I would suggest a decent sub, especially if your watching action movies with alot of "Thunder" at LOUD levels...

The Sierra really does well with bass, but it's NOT designed for high SPL movies and such(Low frequencies), most floorstanders aren't good enough for full HT duty without a sub.

Considering the budget constraints and usage, you may want to invest in a sub, and 340's or even 170's instead, unless of course, your NOT going to play loud thunderous passages.
With a decent sub, these both sound fabulous.

The Sierras definitely go lower, and sound better, but they weren't designed to handle that kinda load(it's not their fault- look around), thats really dedicated subwoofer territory IMO.
For music, they can handle that just fine without a sub IMO.

These are just MY thoughts on the matter, but I wouldn't want to have my Sierras running full range(Large) playing at 90+SPL when the machines come outta the ground in War of the Worlds.

OOWV

randytsuch1

08-13-07, 08:18 PM

analogBalrog

08-13-07, 10:18 PM

Thanks everyone for your feedback.

@Randy:

Also, did you price the Sierra's as a package? Three Sierra fronts, in natural without magnetic shielding are $1224 shipped. And, you can call, and ask for b stock, which will save you another 12% from that.

-- Yeah, that is precisely the deal I was looking at. I'd still have to add 3 stands to the mix and it seems that everywhere I look, they're about $100/stand.

I don't fully understand B-stock. I know what it is, but is it always available? I have no prob going with B-stock, just wasn't counting on it being available when I buy.

So, getting 3 Sierra's up front with no sub won't let me down? I really am concerned most with sound quality, not quantity, and while I realize a sub brings the LFE and thus quality to the overall HT experience, I normally equate "quality" with the clarity and accuracy of the mids/highs. That said, you guys think a Sierra LCR 3.0 system would suffice until a sub comes along?

I'm eyeing all kinds of subs... but there's so dang spendy. Here's some relatively cheaper ones that I'm looking at...

HSU VTF-2 MK3 (250) - BLACK $499.00
SVS 25-31PCi Subwoofer $549.00
SVS 20-39 PCi Subwoofer $599.00

I'm sure one of those would go well with the Sierra LCR, and like you said, I could round out the surrounds with the Sony's (I also have some Pioneer and Cambridge Soundwork surrounds too to use).

I'm still torn wondering if I should get a complete setup similar to the one below for less money... hmmm, the choices:

~$1800 5.1 Setup
ASCEND SYSTEM 33-1000 $1,048.00
--(pair of 340's, pair of 200's, 1 340 center)
ASCEND SYSTEM 340M STANDS (pr) $100.00
Ascend Shipping (direct) $66.00
Sanus NFC18 Stand for Sierra Center $95.00
HSU VTF-2 MK3 (250) - BLACK $499.00
HSU SHIPPING $53.42
:confused:

or stick with the Sierras w/o a sub:

~$1500 3.0 Setup
ASCEND SIERRA Natural LCR $1,178.00
ASCEND SHIPPING $46.00
Sanus SF26B 26" Steel $99.00
Sanus SF26B 26" Steel $99.00
Sanus NFC18 Stand for Sierra Center $95.00

Thanks again for the help!

JasonColeman

08-13-07, 10:40 PM

I'd opt for package #2 and save for the remainder of the setup. Might as well go for the best you can right now and build the rest of the system later.

J.

JasonColeman

08-13-07, 11:05 PM

Somebody needs some medication...or maybe some friends...or maybe a drink...or maybe just a good night of sleep.

Dude, give it a rest. You're barking up the wrong tree and arguing with the wrong crowd of folks that have (with your help) written you off absolutely and completely. You have proven post after post after post that you have your own set of ideas and you're not convincing us and we're obviously not convincing you.

I think we were all relieved when you said you were leaving several posts ago.

Just go...please.

J.

JasonColeman

08-13-07, 11:08 PM

And by the way, there's no such thing as "taking anything for granite..." unless of course you're talking about either mining or stealing headstones. It's taking something "for granted" which we have all done regarding the continuous absurdity of your posts.

J.

tonygeno

08-13-07, 11:53 PM

Actually, since his head is like rock, i.e. impenetrable, he does take everything for granite.

cschang

08-13-07, 11:56 PM

LOL!! :D

JasonColeman

08-14-07, 12:19 AM

MONSTER TRUCK tires are more expensive but probably not a good choice for my Honda Civic.
Did you just compare the Ascend Sierra-1 to your Honda Civic or is Andy sharing his medication...that he's not using? :D

J.

rossandwendy

08-14-07, 12:52 AM

Grandarf and Bill Mac, thank you for your responses about the piano black finish.

Funkfuzz, for the last year I have lived with Ascend 170SE's L/R, 340SE center, and HTM-200 surrounds, along with subs from SVS and HSU, and the system is really amazing for the price. Since you are watching movies more often than listening to music, I highly recommend you fit a good sub in your budget and that first Ascend system you listed will rock your world - the 170's and 340 center will amaze you with their clarity and neutrality, and a quality budget sub really brings movies to life. I just got the Sierras in and need a lot more time listening to them to make a full judgement, but so far I can say that their bass extension and power is no substitute for my subs especially on movies (though they are more refined overall than the other Ascends). IMO a full 5.1 system with something like a SVS PB10 or HSU VTF2.3 is the way to go based on your stated movie-to-music ratio and would surely put a huge grin on your face for a long time to come.

Cheers,
Ross

Ascend

08-14-07, 03:52 AM

BTW, though I'm sure I can look it up, what size and TPI is the threaded insert on the rear of the Sierras? I think I remember reading 10mm, but I'm not positive.

Hi Jason,

The threaded inserts are 1/4 x 20.

Take care!

The_Dark_Knight

08-14-07, 04:19 AM

Did you just compare the Ascend Sierra-1 to your Honda Civic or is Andy sharing his medication...that he's not using? :D

J.

Hey, Honda Civics are great cars and routinely are #1 in their class.

analogBalrog

08-14-07, 08:21 AM

Thanks Jason and Ross&Wendy for your feedback. I really appreciate it.

Although they are 2 different suggestions, it feels like Ross&Wendy's comments make the most sense for my given situation and will give me more immediate Home Theatre joy than going with an incomplete system to start. I can always upgrade to the Sierra's later, and just move my 340's upstairs to our other TV...or better yet, buy Sierra's for upstairs as that is where my turntables and very expensive phono cartridges and phono preamps are for dedicated vinyl listening. I think the Sierra's would really shine in vinyl listening and I think the 340 system will really shine in a Home Theatre.

Thanks again for all the help! By the way, I live in the Granite State (New Hampshire) so I'm keepin' a watchful eye out for that Andy guy... ;)

SteveLD

08-14-07, 08:43 AM

Well, I finally got everything all set up, and more importantly a chance to play with everything. My Onkyo 875 came in and I got everything hooked up and calibrated. All I can say is WOW! The sound from this set up is amazing. So clear, so precise. I can hear such separation of music. I mean instruments that previously just blended together to form one sound all sound so distinct. You can actually hear the individual notes and melodies being played. Simply amazing.

The imaging on these things for both HT and music is incredible. You can distinctly here the separtion and where the sound is coming from. I am very impressed. Now all I have to do is wait for my PB-13 Ultra from SVS to ship and I'll be in nirvana.

I may not be the best person to judge these things, as this is my first HT setup but I have heard many a friends systems before and this just blows them all away. :D

Bill Mac

08-14-07, 09:25 AM

By the way, I live in the Granite State (New Hampshire) so I'm keepin' a watchful eye out for that Andy guy... ;)

funkfuzz,

Maybe when you drive by Cannon Mt. you will see him up there where the Old Man once was :D!

Bill

logicology

08-14-07, 10:15 AM

Thank god

I can't take avsforum any more.

I don't care what you guys think, if I become a millionaire...I guarentee you I will fund a internet direct company using these drivers..

it may have not been easy back in the day, but with the internet..there is a reason I think one of these guys should pull it off.

Consider my account deleted. Good day.

analogBalrog

08-14-07, 10:45 AM

funkfuzz,

Maybe when you drive by Cannon Mt. you will see him up there where the Old Man once was :D!
Bill

Hey... that's 10 minutes from my house! Hopefully, he isn't that close. :p

Alright... I'm moving on over to the 340 thread. Thanks again everyone.

randytsuch1

08-14-07, 10:57 AM

Hey... that's 10 minutes from my house! Hopefully, he isn't that close. :p

Alright... I'm moving on over to the 340 thread. Thanks again everyone.

Good luck. And, you didnt say anything before about a dedicated 2 ch phono system. I agree with you that the Sierra's should be better for music, so they would be better in that system, later.

For stands, check out parts express. Their stands are supposed to be good, for the price, they have 24" stands starting at $45.

For b stock, give Ascend a call. Maybe I got lucky, but they had what I wanted in b stock. Otherwise, you could try waiting for a set of bstocks to come along, if you have the patience for it :)

Randy

einsteinjb

08-14-07, 04:18 PM

...If the Devil developed a dried dogpoop mid-bass driver and a styrafoam tweeter in a coardboard box that produced the music of the Gods and it cost him $4 bucks to build and he was charging $700 a pair, I wouldn't care provided it sounded that much better than the competition at that price.
Oh I would, I would totally care and I'd almost definitely not buy that product. For one thing, the dogpoop drivers would probably smell if they got hot or wet (unless of course they were coated with something that prevented that), not to mention my own dog would probably object to them, and the cardboard enclosures would totally clash with my decor. ;)

einsteinjb

08-14-07, 05:00 PM

I'd still have to add 3 stands to the mix and it seems that everywhere I look, they're about $100/stand...

I'm eyeing all kinds of subs... but there's so dang spendy. Here's some relatively cheaper ones that I'm looking at...

HSU VTF-2 MK3 (250) - BLACK $499.00
SVS 25-31PCi Subwoofer $549.00
SVS 20-39 PCi Subwoofer $599.00
For stands, I'm using a pair of these Sanus wood ones from Amazon which are 31" and quite stable for my Ascend CBM-170SEs. They're also available in 24" and 16" versions. Grrr... I tried posting a link but it got nixed by the forum software. Well, just go to Amazon and search for SANUS SYSTEMS BF-31B Wood Speaker Stands.

I would however recommend using the custom Ascend stands for CMT-340SEs. They'll look better and probably be more stable due to the height of the speakers. I should think the Sanus ones would be perfect for Sierras.

For a sub I'd definitely choose the SVS PB10-NSD over the Hsu VTF-2 Mk 2 for movies. [EDITED - I mistakenly said Mk 3 when I meant Mk 2.] I've had both and they're both wonderful subs. The VTF-2 Mk 2 might, and I stress MIGHT, be SLIGHTLY more musical, but I wasn't even completely convinced of that. The SVS definitely has more and deeper output and is really amazing for a small to medium sized room. At the point where the Hsu would begin to break up a bit, the SVS just keeps stomping along and politely refuses to distort. I'm even using it for mixing music. Now if you're going to spend more and get into either Hsu's bigger subs (VTF 3, VTF-2 Mk 3, HO, etc.) or the bigger SVS choices, you can't go wrong, period. Whatever looks good to you and fits your budget will work nicely. :)

Jack_T

08-14-07, 05:02 PM

For a sub I'd definitely choose the SVS PB10-NSD over the Hsu VTF-2 Mk 3 for movies.

Really???

cschang

08-14-07, 05:13 PM

For a sub I'd definitely choose the SVS PB10-NSD over the Hsu VTF-2 Mk 3 for movies. I've had both and they're both wonderful subs.
Are you sure you had the MK3? I thought you had the MK2. The MK2 is a 10", the MK3 is a 12"(essentially a VTF-3MK2 with a slightly less powerful amp).

einsteinjb

08-14-07, 05:16 PM

Are you sure you had the MK3? I thought you had the MK2. The MK2 is a 10", the MK3 is a 12"(essentially a VTF-3MK2 with a slightly less powerful amp).
Ooooo, my bad!! Seriously, you're right, I had no idea there was a new version as I hadn't been to the site in quite a while. I knew about the HO versions but not the Mk 3!

OK then I retract my previous statement. I would definitely choose the SVS PB10-NSD over the VTF 2 Mk 2, not the 3. The 3 would undoubtedly perform a lot better.

Thanks for catching that! :o

cschang

08-14-07, 05:23 PM

Thanks for catching that! :o
No worries.

SteveLD

08-14-07, 07:00 PM

The stands I'm using are the Lovan Affiniti 29 in. High Gloss Piano Black Speaker Stands. They look absolutely stunning with the piano black sierras.

Sam1000

08-15-07, 07:23 PM

The stands I'm using are the Lovan Affiniti 29 in. High Gloss Piano Black Speaker Stands. They look absolutely stunning with the piano black sierras.

Pictures?? :)

JasonColeman

08-16-07, 12:02 AM

Well, anyone with a child knows it's difficult to get anything done, especially when they're 2. Fortunately, our son still takes a 1.5-2 hr nap in the middle of the day and I'm able to make camp in the basement amidst the tools and try to get stuff done. I'm about 2/3 of the way finished with the matching stands for my natural Sierras. I still have to roundover the front corners to match the profile of cabinet, install the carpet spike inserts, fill the few nail holes, finish sand, apply tung-oil finish, and assemble. OK, maybe I'm just 1/2 way there. At any rate, I feel like I finally made some progress today and figured I'd share some pics.

Top detail, with 2 1/4" stainless screw...
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/TopDetail.jpg

Detail of base, front laminated core exposed...
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/BottomDetail.jpg

Shot of interior of column...and a couple of my toes!
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/ColumnInterior.jpg

Full shot of stand...
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/FullView1.jpg

Front shot with speaker...
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/WithSpeaker.jpg

Angle shot with speaker...
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/WithSpeakerSide.jpg

Comparison of finishes...
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/FinishComparo.jpg

Hope to have them done by day's end tomorrow. I'll post pics with el completo.

J.

JasonColeman

08-16-07, 12:09 AM

By the way, from the cut-offs from building the stands, I have about enough leftover material to build a low center-channel stand if anybody is interested. It could be single or dual fillable column (dimensions of your choice), the top plate could be angled upward, etc. If anybody is interested, please let me know. I could also finagle a wall-mounted CC shelf if needed.

J.

ddlooping

08-16-07, 12:18 AM

Very nice job, Jason, I wish I had your skills (and tools). :)

ddlooping

08-16-07, 12:20 AM

Hello everybody,

Has any of you had the opportunity to compare the Sierra to the M&K S85 by any chance?

cschang

08-16-07, 12:27 AM

Jason.....they look GREAT!!!! Let me know when you are ready to take orders!!

cschang

08-16-07, 12:28 AM

Hello everybody,

Has any of you had the opportunity to compare the Sierra to the M&K S85 by any chance?
Since DavidF of Ascend is an ex-M&K engineer, I am sure he is familiar with the S85. Call him and ask, he will give you the straight scoop.

JasonColeman

08-16-07, 12:29 AM

Very nice job, Jason, I wish I had your skills (and tools). :)
Thanks, but it's all the tools. I just happen to know how to turn them on. Just like when people tell me that my son is cute, I say "Thanks, it's all his mom. I just happen to know how to turn her on."

As soon as I'm done with the stands, I'll be building a 3-shelf wall-mounted component rack to accompany the Sierras in our office. I'm still working throught the design, but I'm trying to marry Art-Deco and Arts-and-Crafts, which can be a challenging pair to join.

J.

JasonColeman

08-16-07, 12:51 AM

Jason.....they look GREAT!!!! Let me know when you are ready to take orders!!
Curtis, for you...anything! :D

Send me the details and dimensions and I'll build you stand for your CC and matching 31" stands for your L & R. If you want the CC stand angled upward, or want the columns larger or smaller, just let me know. I'm more than happy to work out a very fair price, though I'll most likely have to have the Plyboo shipped in from Richmond, VA. If there's enough interest, shipping costs will obviously shrink, and I'm still trying to hook up with a local "green builder" who is getting materials from Eco Supply.

J.

muzz

08-16-07, 12:52 AM

Looking Good Jason!!

Well done.

JasonColeman

08-16-07, 01:00 AM

Looking Good Jason!!

Well done.
Thanks! It's amazing what you can do when your children sleep! I had the monitor down in the basement with me sitting on the bed of the jointer and fortunately his bedroom is on the opposite side of the house and two floors away.

I'll post some pics of the finished stands tomorrow afternoon.

J.

ddlooping

08-16-07, 08:21 AM

Since DavidF of Ascend is an ex-M&K engineer, I am sure he is familiar with the S85. Call him and ask, he will give you the straight scoop.
Thanks for the suggestion, Curtis. :)

Ascend

08-16-07, 08:38 PM

Has any of you had the opportunity to compare the Sierra to the M&K S85 by any chance?

Hi ddlooping,

I am *intimately* familiar with the M&K S-85.. This is a VERY different loudspeaker than our Sierra-1.. The only thing the two speakers have in common is that they are both 2-way loudspeakers. The Sierra-1 would be more comparable to a speaker like the M&K S-150 or B-1600 models Our HTM-200 would be a more reasonable comparison to the S-85.

Regardless, I would be happy to discuss with you :) Please give us a call or send me a PM.

Take care!

ddlooping

08-17-07, 12:47 AM

Thanks David, I'll try and give you a call tomorrow (09/17). :)

JasonColeman

08-17-07, 11:01 AM

Well I just finished with the final assembly of the stands. Overall, I'm very happy with them. The finish turned out a bit darker than I like, so I'll experiment with a couple of other products to get it dead on. The only things I still have to do are run the speaker wire inside the column and fill them with sand.

Here are a few pics...

View of the stand upside-down:
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/Upside-Down.jpg

Close-up view of the base plate:
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/Upside-DownDetail.jpg

Angled view of the stand:
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/AngleView.jpg

Close up view of the bottom of the column with roundover:
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/BaseClose-Up.jpg

Angled view with speaker:
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/GrilleOff.jpg

Front view with speaker:
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/FullFrontal.jpg

Pic with grille on:
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/GrilleOn.jpg

Now to get crackin' on that wall unit!

J.

Grandarf

08-17-07, 11:29 AM

Wow, nice job!!! :D

ddlooping

08-17-07, 11:30 AM

Very nice, Jason. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/icons/icon14.gif
Well I just finished with the final assembly of the stands. Overall, I'm very happy with them. The finish turned out a bit darker than I like, so I'll experiment with a couple of other products to get it dead on.
Maybe you could ask David what finish they use, and get a perfect match. :)

JasonColeman

08-17-07, 12:07 PM

Thanks!

My guess is that whatever product they use to finish the Sierras with needs to be sprayed, which I don't have the equipment to do. I will PM Dave and check, but I think I'll just have to experiment.

J.

Grandarf

08-17-07, 12:38 PM

yeah it's usually a good idea to test out the finish on a small piece of scrap wood to see how it turns out. Btw, did u put something between stands/speakers? Blue tac might be a good idea, AScend provides some sort of foam to place between speakers/stands.

JasonColeman

08-17-07, 12:43 PM

I'd never worked with the material before, so simply went with the tung oil because the place where I purchased the plyboo recommended using tung oil. At any rate, no big deal because this pair is for me. As far as something between the speaker and stand, I will be using Blu Tak.

J.

domingos1965

08-19-07, 09:58 PM

ok i have a 2 week old 5.1 HT
340SE'S (RCL)
and 170SE's on the sides
the price difference between the sierra1 5.1 HT and the 340's is only $340
i am still within the 30 days return policy.
should i return them and get the sierras?
my HT will be 100% movies

thanks

tonygeno

08-19-07, 11:14 PM

How do you think they sound?

couch21

08-22-07, 10:06 PM

einsteinjb

08-22-07, 10:12 PM

I have a pair of Ascend Sierra-1 (b-stock) coming in tomorrow. Before I try these out, though, a few things bother me right off the bat.

1) From the stock photos, there is only one pair of 5-way binding posts, so I presume that I can't bi-wire these. It seems most of the highly regarded bookshelf monitors and towers out there have two sets of binding posts (including Ascend's own 340SE line). Why would Ascend choose to leave these out (cost considerations?)

2) Being in the software industry, I know first-hand that it's instant death to release a new product with "1" in the name, as in Version 1, or Release 1. Is Dave Fabrikant implying that there will be future releases of this speaker, and are current owners (including me, potentially) just fodder for an inevitable second release? I wasn't too thrilled about the announcement of the SE line shortly after I bought the classic CBM-170s, I don't want to get burned twice. Even though Ascend speakers retain their resale value like Honda automobiles, I'm already a bit skeptical of the longevity of the Sierra-1 line.
Have you asked David Fabrikant these questions? You can call and get him personally on the phone you know, and he'll be happy to discuss your concerns with you. One of the great things about Ascend Acoustics.

I would hypothesize that the "1" has nothing to do with a pre-planned upgrade to a speaker he JUST released. Rather, I bet he has plans in the works for other speakers in the Sierra line, like maybe a tower, rears, etc. Again, ask him yourself. And please let us know what he says. :)

cschang

08-22-07, 10:39 PM

The classic CBM-170 was on the market for over 5 years before the SE version was announced. An upgrade path was also offered to classic owners.

I would think the Sierra-1 would mean if there were another speaker in the Sierra "line" it would be the Sierra-2.

As for bi-wiring, its benefits are highly debated, and there are also many highly regarded speakers that do not have bi-wiring terminals.

Like einstein suggested, give them a call.

warlord260

08-23-07, 12:14 PM

i have a question about ascends. i am receiving mine tomorrow, 340se across the front, and 4 200s for surrounds. i will be using 2 a2-300 ed subs. what xo freq. would anyone recommend setting these speakers at ,mostly ht. ? would you set all at 80? would the 200s handle 80? i know this is not the right thd, but most here seem to have ascends. thanks, mike.

Sam1000

08-23-07, 12:41 PM

My 340s were x-over at 80 and 200 at 100. However, that's not a default setting in every room. Do you have Avia and SPL meter? Try both and see which one you like.

millerwill

08-23-07, 01:36 PM

I'm still grappling with the much-discussed question of whether or not to upgrade from 340's L/C/R to Sierra's, used almost 100% for HT. (Have a good sub, SVS PB10, for a medium small room, ~ 2100 cu ft.)

A question re sensitivity: the Sierra's are ~ 3 dB less sensitive than the 340's under anecoic conditions, and ~ 5 dB less for 'in room' conditions. Now I've always heard it thrown around that you need twice the power from an amp to increase the sound by 3 dB. Does that mean that I will need a 220 wpc amp (or more) to get the same sound from the Sierra's that I now get with my 110 wpc amp with the 340's? This doesn't 'sound' right; can someone enlighten me? Thanks.

JasonColeman

08-23-07, 01:44 PM

That's the way I've always heard it explained. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_power) gives the same explanation.

J.

cschang

08-23-07, 01:59 PM

The thing is, are you using all of that 110wpc now?

millerwill

08-23-07, 02:07 PM

The thing is, are you using all of that 110wpc now?

Yes, I think this must be the point: that the actual power drawn from the amp is much less than its full capacity.

cschang

08-23-07, 02:19 PM

This might help:
http://www.goodsound.com/howto/2001_08_01.htm

Also remember that receiver amplifier ratings are often not very truthful.

radiowildcat1999

08-23-07, 05:08 PM

Does anyone have any suggestions for in-ceiling speakers that will closely match the Sierra 1 speakers? Unfortunatelly in my case (5.1 Setup) I have to settle for 3 Sierra's in the front and 2 in-ceiling speakers for the rear. Thank you in advance for your help ;)

Schadenfreude

08-23-07, 05:14 PM

The thing is, are you using all of that 110wpc now?

This might help:

http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/supercharger/dynamicrange.html

Ascend

08-23-07, 09:58 PM

Hi couch21,

All reasonable concerns and I would be happy to address them...

1) From the stock photos, there is only one pair of 5-way binding posts, so I presume that I can't bi-wire these. It seems most of the highly regarded bookshelf monitors and towers out there have two sets of binding posts (including Ascend's own 340SE line). Why would Ascend choose to leave these out (cost considerations?).

At the time the 340 was designed, it seemed “bi-wiring” was very popular. Many customers requested this feature and after thorough evaluation of implementation details, it was realized that we could implement the option to bi-wire with relative ease…

Many years later, we determined that less than ½ of 1 percent of our customers are actually using this feature. Instead, the feature actually becomes somewhat problematic as many consumers don’t understand it and have actually caused problems due to improper wiring.

Bi-wire implementation on the Sierra would be a bit more complicated. You see, on just about every bi-wireable speaker, a crossover cup or plate is used on the back of the speaker (often a large one). This requires a large section of the rear baffle of the cabinet to be removed and actually compromises the integrity of the cabinet. Since one of the design goals of the Sierra was an extremely inert cabinet, using a binding post / input plate on the Sierra was quickly ruled out. Hate to waste all of that magical bamboo :)

Additionally, cost does come into play. Bi-wire implementation on the Sierra would be expensive – the binding posts we use are top grade and adding this feature would have added at least $60-$70 retail cost to each speaker ($120-$140 pair), something I don’t consider fair to those customers who would never use the option (which is at least 99%)…

If bi-wiring is a must, we can make a special-order bi-wireable pair for you :)

2) Being in the software industry, I know first-hand that it's instant death to release a new product with "1" in the name, as in Version 1, or Release 1. Is Dave Fabrikant implying that there will be future releases of this speaker, and are current owners (including me, potentially) just fodder for an inevitable second release? I wasn't too thrilled about the announcement of the SE line shortly after I bought the classic CBM-170s, I don't want to get burned twice. Even though Ascend speakers retain their resale value like Honda automobiles, I'm already a bit skeptical of the longevity of the Sierra-1 line.

This surprises me a bit.. As Curtis mentioned, our CBM-170 was on the market, completely unchanged – without a single revision for nearly 6 full years. That is unheard of in the loudspeaker industry. New revisions of existing loudspeakers hit the market almost every year, at least every 2 years.

The “1” designation is not meant as a revision… More so that it is the first model in our Sierra line. The Sierra-1 has been very well received and a tremendous success for us so far. Of course our intention is to eventually offer a Sierra-2, Sierra-3 – heck, if I had the resources and manpower, I would shoot for a Sierra-10.. But these would not be updates or revised versions of the Sierra-1, just different models altogether. Bookshelf speakers are only a small percentage of the market, why deny consumers the chance to experience the Sierra where a speaker of this size will simply not work for them?

Seriously, how many loudspeaker companies only offer 1 model in a line?

However, those that know me, know how meticulous I am about performance (bordering obsessive).. It could be years before we release a Sierra-2, whatever that speaker may be. I can assure you though, when a Sierra-2 or 3 or 4 etc. are released, they will be designed to complement the Sierra-1 – NOT replace it by any means.

I spent over 4 years working on this loudspeaker -- there is just no chance I am going to make any dramatic changes to it for a very long time.

To be honest, right now my primary concern is finding bamboo suppliers and factories that can manufacture the unique cabinets for us well into the future….

Hope this eases your concerns!

JasonColeman

08-23-07, 10:14 PM

To be honest, right now my primary concern is finding bamboo suppliers and factories that can manufacture the unique cabinets for us well into the future….
Dave,

If you find yourself in a pinch, I might have some leftover 1/2" and 3/4" that I could float you! :D :D

Nice post!

J.

Grandarf

08-23-07, 10:37 PM

1) From the stock photos, there is only one pair of 5-way binding posts, so I presume that I can't bi-wire these. It seems most of the highly regarded bookshelf monitors and towers out there have two sets of binding posts (including Ascend's own 340SE line). Why would Ascend choose to leave these out (cost considerations?)

Hey look at it from the bright side, you won't need to waste 75$ for these CARDAS - JUMPER CABLES (http://www.musicdirect.com/product/73226) :p Or 115$ for these!! (http://www.google.com/search?q=buy+Nordost+Frey+Bi-wire+speaker+jumper+cable&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enCA225CA225) :eek:

xcjago

08-24-07, 12:30 AM

couch21

08-24-07, 01:13 AM

Hi couch21,

All reasonable concerns and I would be happy to address them...

At the time the 340 was designed, it seemed “bi-wiring” was very popular. Many customers requested this feature and after thorough evaluation of implementation details, it was realized that we could implement the option to bi-wire with relative ease…

Many years later, we determined that less than ½ of 1 percent of our customers are actually using this feature. Instead, the feature actually becomes somewhat problematic as many consumers don’t understand it and have actually caused problems due to improper wiring.

Bi-wire implementation on the Sierra would be a bit more complicated. You see, on just about every bi-wireable speaker, a crossover cup or plate is used on the back of the speaker (often a large one). This requires a large section of the rear baffle of the cabinet to be removed and actually compromises the integrity of the cabinet. Since one of the design goals of the Sierra was an extremely inert cabinet, using a binding post / input plate on the Sierra was quickly ruled out. Hate to waste all of that magical bamboo :)

Additionally, cost does come into play. Bi-wire implementation on the Sierra would be expensive – the binding posts we use are top grade and adding this feature would have added at least $60-$70 retail cost to each speaker ($120-$140 pair), something I don’t consider fair to those customers who would never use the option (which is at least 99%)…

If bi-wiring is a must, we can make a special-order bi-wireable pair for you :)

This surprises me a bit.. As Curtis mentioned, our CBM-170 was on the market, completely unchanged – without a single revision for nearly 6 full years. That is unheard of in the loudspeaker industry. New revisions of existing loudspeakers hit the market almost every year, at least every 2 years.

The “1” designation is not meant as a revision… More so that it is the first model in our Sierra line. The Sierra-1 has been very well received and a tremendous success for us so far. Of course our intention is to eventually offer a Sierra-2, Sierra-3 – heck, if I had the resources and manpower, I would shoot for a Sierra-10.. But these would not be updates or revised versions of the Sierra-1, just different models altogether. Bookshelf speakers are only a small percentage of the market, why deny consumers the chance to experience the Sierra where a speaker of this size will simply not work for them?

Seriously, how many loudspeaker companies only offer 1 model in a line?

However, those that know me, know how meticulous I am about performance (bordering obsessive).. It could be years before we release a Sierra-2, whatever that speaker may be. I can assure you though, when a Sierra-2 or 3 or 4 etc. are released, they will be designed to complement the Sierra-1 – NOT replace it by any means.

I spent over 4 years working on this loudspeaker -- there is just no chance I am going to make any dramatic changes to it for a very long time.

To be honest, right now my primary concern is finding bamboo suppliers and factories that can manufacture the unique cabinets for us well into the future….

Hope this eases your concerns!

Thanks Dave for taking the time to directly respond to my concerns. There's no "purple monkey dishwasher" effect (Simpsons allusion, of course!) when I hear it straight from you. I appreciate the candid response.

I'm happily breaking-in my new piano black Sierra-1s right now; I don't even know what my problem is - I shouldn't be worrying about release 2 when I have perpetual bliss sitting right in front of me. :)

STRONGBADF1

08-24-07, 10:19 PM

Fantastic post Dave! I am drooling at what a Sierra-2 or 3 might bring to the table!

p.s. I heard a pair of Paradigm Studio 20s (the newest model) a couple days ago. They sounded pretty good, but I wouldn't trade my Sierras for them.

Hi xcjago,

How would you (or anyone else) compare the two? I really like the Studio 20's but they are not perfect...and since they are priced about the same...the 170's and 340's also for that matter.

SBF1

ps I understand that acoustic memory...different rooms...etc...:D

xcjago

08-24-07, 11:14 PM

Imaging was very good on the Studio 20s and the highs sounded very crisp not not bright. Where I felt there was a difference is in the bass and mid bass. The Sierras seem to extend deeper and the bass hits have more impact. It's not a huge difference but it was definitely something I noticed.

millerwill

08-25-07, 03:05 PM

What x-over is being recommended for the Sierras? 60 Hz, or even 50? And the HTM 200's should probably be at ~ 100 Hz, right?

Patrick Bennett

08-25-07, 03:11 PM

If you've got a good sub, personally, I'd cross them over at 80Hz. I'd rather leave the sole mid/bass driver to reproducing great mid-range, and not having it try to go low at the same time. My $.02

cschang

08-25-07, 08:19 PM

I cross my Sierras at 60hz. In my room, I feel I lose some bass quality if I cross at 80hz.

trainCatcer

08-27-07, 12:59 PM

I was wondering if someone could clarify the Sierra's measured frequency response.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRM1/srm1meas.html

While the second graph, which shows off-axis response, has the Sierra's response tailing off below 120 Hz, the top graph shows another broad peak at 80Hz. The broad peak seems to be missing in the second graph. There doesn't seem to be any difference between how these two measurements were taken. Any comments?

cschang

08-27-07, 02:08 PM

The off-axis response did not employ the technique to accurately capture response below 200hz. DaveF explains it somewhere on the Ascend forum.

analogBalrog

08-27-07, 02:18 PM

After extensive WAF meetings, it looks like the Sierra's are back on the Christmas list. What a difference a day makes. :)

We've decided to use the Sierra's in an LCR 3.0 setup upstairs and work on the downstairs HT later. So, we'll be about 33% HT and 66% Music in our upstairs listening space. We'll round out the system to 5.1 later down the road, but for now, I'm most interested in clarity, imaging and soundstage across the front for watching films in the LCR setup, and 2-channel listening for music which will likely be playing in the house 6-8 hours a day, and a good hour or so of critical vinyl listening at night. I plan to run the Sierra's fullrange until later next year when a sub is introduced, then I'll xover.

Does anybody have a recommendation on a receiver that will drive these speakers sufficiently at my price range: I'd like to spend no more than $400-500 on the receiver at this time. The Emotiva duo looks wonderful, but I'm also buying a ridiculous amount of electronic nonsense in addition to speakers (Plasma, Wii, etc.) , so...something's gotta give. I currently own the following receiver, but I'm told on another thread that it won't power the Sierra's sufficiently. If you think otherwise, then PLEASE chime in, because honestly, I'd like to squeek out what I can with the receiver below and forgo buying a new receiver and save my squid for the rockin' Emotiva duo. ;)

Thoughts? Many thanks from a future Ascend customer! :)

Sony STR-DE897 (info pulled from Amazon)
Front power per channel (surround mode): 110 watts per channel x 7 (into 8 ohms at 1 kHz, THD 0.7 percent), or 100 watts per channel x 7 (into 8 ohms 20 to 20,000 Hz, THD 0.09 percent)

ddlooping

08-27-07, 02:58 PM

funkfuzz, I'd suggest you keep your Sony for now and only upgrade it if you feel the need. ;)

trainCatcer

08-27-07, 07:47 PM

The off-axis response did not employ the technique to accurately capture response below 200hz. DaveF explains it somewhere on the Ascend forum.

Thanks! I'm contemplating ordering a pair and I'm trying to figure out what kind of sub configuartion I would use.

cschang

08-27-07, 08:02 PM

Thanks! I'm contemplating ordering a pair and I'm trying to figure out what kind of sub configuartion I would use.
What are your options?

ccotenj

08-27-07, 08:43 PM

i sure would like a set of those plyboo stands...

JasonColeman

08-28-07, 06:10 AM

:D

Ask and ye shall receive...the first batch should be out by the end of this week.

J.

JasonColeman

08-28-07, 10:16 AM

Quick addition...I'll post pics of the first batch as soon as they're complete.

J.

cschang

08-31-07, 01:51 PM

Another review:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0907/ascend_acoustic_sierra_1.htm

JasonColeman

09-01-07, 01:22 AM

Pics first thing in the morning...then off to UPS!

J.

JasonColeman

09-01-07, 01:24 AM

Wow...made the last post before clicking on Curtis's link...one of the pairs of stands is going to the author of that review!

...and the other is going to Curtis! :D

Coincidence...? I don't think so!

J. :)

JasonColeman

09-01-07, 01:25 AM

Suddenly the signature starts to make sense...at least to me.

xcjago

09-01-07, 01:43 AM

Wow! That was a very glowing review, but accurate IMO. I like how he pointed out the importance of placement. Having the Sierras too close to the wall can definitely exaggerate the bass.

JasonColeman

09-01-07, 01:45 AM

I agree...with the rear port the bass and even midrange can get a bit "bloated" and muddy if positioned too close to a wall or other reflecting surface. They do really well on stands! :D

J.

millerwill

09-01-07, 04:45 PM

The reviewer was referring primarily to the distance of the Sierras to the wall behind them, correct? What about the side walls?

BTW, Just sold my L/C/R 340's today, and my Sierra Center arrives this coming Wed. I ordered b-stock cabinets (since I may actually paint them matte black) and will have to wait until they have more of these to get the L and R. In the meantime I have a pair of old Infinity Primus 160's; they are almost the same size as the Sierras, and actually don't sound so bad. (This will convince you that I'm no audiophile!)

millerwill

09-01-07, 06:17 PM

I've read through most of this thread in anticipation of my Sierras arriving next week, but have one issue is still not clear to me, the x-over with a sub.

I have a very nice sub (SVS PB10), at least for my medium-size (~ 2100 cu ft) room, so it would be simple just to use the standard 80 Hz x-over. But since the Sierras can go deep, wouldn't using 60 Hz (or maybe even 50) 'spread out' the base over the L/C/R Sierras and thus spread out room resonances better than having so much of the base being concentrated in the sub? Think how much the room resonances change as you move the sub around to different locations. If more of the base is coming from the L/C/R speakers, it seems that it would smooth out the room resonances more.

Is this argument totally out to lunch (quite possible)? And, of course, I will simply try different x-overs when I have the speakers; but I thought it would be good to get some insight from some the the experts here. (I realize that having a lower x-over will put more burden on the AVR, but I have a Onk 805 coming, so I don't think that is a worry.)

Grandarf

09-01-07, 06:44 PM

Right. cschang confirmed that his sound better crossed over at 60hz. Retains more of the quality of the Sierra's bass. DaveF also suggested 60hz in the Ascend forums for the Sierras.

Try no sub also, Sierras sound great just by themselves :) I haven't run into a lot of material where the sierras seemed to have trouble with bass.

Nice review :) I also think audioholics somewhat negative comments on the Sierra bass was caused to inadequate placement... So it's nice to see a reviewer taking care to place them correctly go get the most out of them!

Bill Mac

09-01-07, 08:57 PM

cschang

09-02-07, 12:18 AM

Another review went up today....
http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi.html

cschang

09-02-07, 01:26 AM

I have a very nice sub (SVS PB10), at least for my medium-size (~ 2100 cu ft) room, so it would be simple just to use the standard 80 Hz x-over. But since the Sierras can go deep, wouldn't using 60 Hz (or maybe even 50) 'spread out' the base over the L/C/R Sierras and thus spread out room resonances better than having so much of the base being concentrated in the sub?
In the bass that your PB10 can play in common with the Sierra, the Sierra is much better in sound quality, but will not have the same output capability.

In my room, with my VTF-3MK3, which IMO sounds better than the PB10, I cross at 60hz because I feel I lose some quality if I cross at 80hz. I know someone with a JL Audio F112 that crosses at 80hz with his Sierras and does not lose a thing.

I would probably run the Sierra without a sub for music more often...but in my system it is a pain to switch between "with sub" and "without sub".

Grandarf

09-02-07, 09:49 AM

Those two last reviews were really nice. :D Much better reviews IMHO than the one from audioholics!

muzz

09-02-07, 12:56 PM

I am very close to ordering a pair of Sierras to compare to my Dynaudio Focus 140s. I was wondering if anyone has their Sierras powered by any of the Parasound Halo amps (I have the A52)? I will most likely order the Sierra center as well.

Thanks, Bill

heheheheh

Bill, my offer stands- my place or yours, doesn't matter to me bud.
I have your old amp- so you know what that sounds like.:D

millerwill

09-02-07, 01:07 PM

Those two last reviews were really nice. :D Much better reviews IMHO than the one from audioholics!

Wow, you are right; what an impressive, and authorative review was this last one. Glad my L/C/R Sierras are on the way.

craigsub

09-02-07, 02:09 PM

Grandarf

09-02-07, 02:28 PM

Well the Sierra have less distortion. Also you can see the waterfall plots on Ascend's site and they also give another view vs 170SE.

I was also surprised to see that the measurements for the Sierra seemed to vary quite a bit from the ones on Ascend's webpage. But, the sierras are still like +/- 2.5 dB (maybe even 2dB?) from like 60hz to 10khz which is still very acceptable. Anyhow, to my ears, the Sierras were a definite improvements to the 340SE, so even if it's a little less ruler flat, still sounds better to me so it's all good :) The design philosophy of 170/340 was also different than Sierra, so that probably must have had an impact on it.

I think 170/340 started with woofers, but for Sierra the 'special' crossover was designed first and then tweeters/woofers selected. So while not being as ruler flat, the crossover, cabinet, bass, etc... are all better on the Sierra. It's not like Sierra look like this:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/zucable_druid/frequency_on1530.gif

:p

cschang

09-02-07, 02:39 PM

It is all very interesting.

Would love to see decay graphs for all them. The 170 info is old too....wonder what the SE version looks like.

craigsub

09-02-07, 02:42 PM

Grandarf, before you wander off into one of your famous defenses of what you own, the graphs were merely presented as being interesting. :)

They are.

The 170 measures "better" than the Sierra, yet it is pretty well thought of that the Sierras sound better.

It was not that long ago that 170 fans were posting the flat frequency response curve as proof of the 170's great sound quality. Someone tried explaining that a flat response curve was not the last word in sound quality ... (wonder who that was ??? ;)) ...

The Sierras are, in my opinion, a better speaker than the 170, but the graphs certainly don't "prove" that, now do they ?

It is in careful listening that one decides these things.

ltrtiger

09-02-07, 02:44 PM

Thanks for the reviews! Very encouraged and looking forward to hearing these. My pair with matching center should be here Friday.

Bill Mac

09-02-07, 03:03 PM

heheheheh

Bill, my offer stands- my place or yours, doesn't matter to me bud.
I have your old amp- so you know what that sounds like.:D

Gary,

It will be yours as I would like to visit my old amp:D. I will be in touch, maybe in a few weeks but I have a feeling I will order a pair of Sierras before then!

Take care, Bill

craigsub

09-02-07, 03:09 PM

Bill ... If my Emotiva LPA-1 will handle the Sierras, your Parasound will drive them quite nicely.

Have at them, it would be cool to read your comparisons ... :)

cschang

09-02-07, 03:11 PM

It is in careful listening that one decides these things.
Yes...agreed, listening is a big part, but for an engineer, there are technical and objective targets as well that he (or she) believes attribute to the overall sound.

The Sierra is certainly stikk a "neutral" speaker..even by the graph. It would be nice to see graphs of people's preferences.

The Sierras are, in my opinion, a better speaker than the 170, but the graphs certainly don't "prove" that, now do they ?
Agreed..not at all, but it is a limited number of measurements in the overall scheme of things. Like I mentioned earlier, I would like to see spectral decay graphs...like Stereophile's. I think someone was actually trying to get Stereophile to review the Sierras too.

Bill Mac

09-02-07, 03:15 PM

Bill ... If my Emotiva LPA-1 will handle the Sierras, your Parasound will drive them quite nicely.

Have at them, it would be cool to read your comparisons ... :)

Craig,

Thats good to know, I had a LPA-1 for a short while. I am tempted to drive out for your GTG in a few weeks. It would be a long drive from Maine but would be well worth it to meet a lot of people with similar interests (or better yet, obessions:D).

Thanks, Bill

craigsub

09-02-07, 03:18 PM

Yes...agreed, listening is a big part, but for an engineer, there are technical and objective targets as well that he (or she) believes attribute to the overall sound.

The Sierra is certainly a "neutral" speaker..even by the graph. It would be nice to see graphs of people's preferences.

Graphs of preferences ? That would be interesting.

For example ... and there is no wrong answer ...

What does this speaker sound like ?

http://stereophile.com/images/archivesart/307P1Xfig4.jpg

Curtis ... I saw your edit, PLEASE don't get me started about the idea of anyone being able to discern sound quality by looking at spectral decay graphs.

cschang

09-02-07, 03:26 PM

Graphs of preferences ? That would be interesting.
from listening to speakers with many different people, I think it would be very interesting. I have also met people that have a wide range of tastes...which is also very interesting.

Curtis ... I saw your edit, PLEASE don't get me started about the idea of anyone being able to discern sound quality by looking at spectral decay graphs.
Not at all....but it would be interesting...right? Quads had/have some of the best decay attributes, and are considered extremely accurate. With the proper set of measurements, I am willing to bet an "expert" could tell you at least the general characteristics of a speaker.

That graph you posted....you should be able to hear the bass emphasis.

craigsub

09-02-07, 03:29 PM

Not at all....but it would be interesting...right? Quads had/have some of the best decay attributes, and are considered extremely accurate.

That graph you posted....you should be able to hear the bass emphasis.

Tell us more about what you should hear from the speakers as shown from the FR curve.

How would the mids and highs sound ... again, just post your gut reaction to that graph.

So far, you pointed out bass emphasis...

cschang

09-02-07, 03:38 PM

Tell us more about what you should hear from the speakers as shown from the FR curve.

How would the mids and highs sound ... again, just post your gut reaction to that graph.

So far, you pointed out bass emphasis...
That is pretty much all I would say.....until I heard it.

craigsub

09-02-07, 03:47 PM

That is pretty much all I would say.....until I heard it.

You have heard it.

Your thoughts on the speakers shown in this graph were:

Simply outstanding! Most impressive sound I heard at the show at any price.

It is pretty fair to say that we can put away the notion that graphs are the barometer of speaker performance.

It is the FR curve of the Pioneer S-1 EX.

Look at that graph again, and it is remarkable that something with a higher than 10 dB curve can sound SO good, isn't it ? :)

cschang

09-02-07, 03:57 PM

craigsub

09-02-07, 04:00 PM

For the record, Curtis, I am not trying to "pick" on you about these graphs.

What I am trying to do is to point out how silly it is for people to use graphs to "prove" the superiority or inferiority of a particular loudspeaker, depending on the agenda.

It happens all too often ... and it is just plain bad methodology, just as declaring that the loudest subwoofer at 20 hz is the best is also bad methodology.

I have NO doubts that the Pioneer, poor response curve not withstanding, is an excellent performer.

cschang

09-02-07, 04:04 PM

I am not argueing with you on that point....I agree. But I do believe that graphs and measurements can give general characteristics of what you will hear.

I have NO doubts that the Pioneer, poor response curve not withstanding, is an excellent performer.

BTW, I don't think the Stereophile measurements are poor...in fact Atkinson, who did the measurements, even wrote that they measured very well. It all goes with understanding what you see.

Here is the S-1EX measurement from Ultimate AV:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/images/archivesart/1006pionnersex.fig1.jpg

craigsub

09-02-07, 04:04 PM

I love that speaker! BTW...it is just the FR graph you posted. Was my post in reference to the S-1EX or the TAD?

Higher than 10dB?...I see 5dB rise in the bass. Also, with Stereophile's measurement techniques, they say that it sometimes shows up as added emphasis in the bass. I have also posted before that I felt it was a bit on the warm side.

Craig, if you are so against graphs as a barometer of speaker performance, why to you post them in your speaker and sub comparisons?

Curtis, it was the S-1EX you were commenting about, you even razzed Kal about being jealous that he was going to review them.

I include measurements AFTER blind listening tests are done. I never said I was against them, what I said was I think posting graphs as THE barometer in regards to a speaker's performance is bad methodology.

Anyone who has read my reviews knows I post my listening tests (and those of others involved) before taking measurements.

That, my friend, is putting one's money where one's mouth is ... much as Stereophile does.

cschang

09-02-07, 04:10 PM

Curtis, it was the S-1EX you were commenting about, you even razzed Kal about being jealous that he was going to review them.

I include measurements AFTER blind listening tests are done. I never said I was against them, what I said was I think posting graphs as THE barometer in regards to a speaker's performance is bad methodology.

Anyone who has read my reviews knows I post my listening tests (and those of others involved) before taking measurements.

That, my friend, is putting one's money where one's mouth is ... much as Stereophile does.
Can you correlate what you hear to the graphs?

craigsub

09-02-07, 04:13 PM

I am not argueing with you on that point....I agree. But I do believe that graphs and measurements can give general characteristics of what you will hear.

Here is the S-1EX measurement from Ultimate AV:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/images/archivesart/1006pionnersex.fig1.jpg

Curtis ... Once again, I am not pointing this out in reference to you. Over the past few years, there have been many occasions in which people have posted a FR curve of a speaker, and declared that it was either superior of inferior, depending on that person's agenda.

That is not proper methodology.

Many people would point to the Pioneer speakers as being "bad" based on the Stereophile's graph.

It does, in fact, measure "worse" than a pair of 170's.

Does anyone think a pair of 170's will be superior sounding ? I doubt it.

I am sure you doubt it, too.

Anyway, your liking a GREAT speaker with a mediocre response curve is a pretty good indicator that measurements don't tell us all that much about the overall sonics.

I just hope everyone reading this keeps this in mind in the future ... posting a graph proves that .. well .. the graph exists ... :D

craigsub

09-02-07, 04:17 PM

Can you correlate what you hear to the graphs?

I cannot think of any case in which I could, except in the case of a subwoofer's bass extension. For a speaker's response curve, no, I cannot draw a correlation. Even with the subwoofer, the extension is not what wins listening tests ... for example, a subwoofer which gets the upper and mid bass right will win over one with excellent 15 Hz performance, but mediorce 40 Hz performance.

I am not the person who always claims measurements are the Holy Grail. Again, I am not saying you are, either. There are guys who do it, though.

cschang

09-02-07, 04:17 PM

Just so we are clear...I do not think it is mediocre response curve....especially when looking at the other measurements that Atkinson took of the same speaker.

We don't really know the difference between it and a 170 because it was not tested in the same environment or by the same people and techniques.

cschang

09-02-07, 04:18 PM

I cannot think of any case in which I could, except in the case of a subwoofer's bass extension. For a speaker's response curve, no, I cannot draw a correlation. Even with the subwoofer, the extension is not what wins listening tests ... for example, a subwoofer which gets the upper and mid bass right will win over one with excellent 15 Hz performance, but mediorce 40 Hz performance.

I am not the person who always claims measurements are the Holy Grail. Again, I am not saying you are, either. There are guys who do it, though.
OK...that is fair, then what do you hope people gain from the graphs that you post?

BTW, there is a hottie playing tennis on TV right now, so forgive me if I do not get back to the thread quickly. :)

craigsub

09-02-07, 04:24 PM

OK...that is fair, then what do you hope people gain from the graphs that you post?

BTW, there is a hottie playing tennis on TV right now, so forgive me if I do not get back to the thread quickly. :)

I don't hope that they gain anything. The simple fact is people like seeing them. You won't find a lot of opinion on the graphs outside what a subwoofer can do at its deepest bass extension.

As for your suggestion that a +5/-8 dB response curve from 50 to 20,000 Hz is not mediocre ... let's just say that is an interesting position.

Here is a John Atkinson measurement of a $1400 speaker ... it is +/-3.5 dB from 40 to 19,000 Hz... with a spike @ 20K.

http://stereophile.com/images/archivesart/906Jblfig4.jpg

xcjago

09-02-07, 04:25 PM

You talking about Ivanovic Curtis? Haha, I was just thinking the same thing.

cschang

09-02-07, 04:33 PM

As for your suggestion that a +5/-8 dB response curve from 50 to 20,000 Hz is not mediocre ... let's just say that is an interesting position.
First, look at all the graphs that were given, it gives a better picture, and then tell that to John Atkinson...he is the expert. :) Forget what I think.

You have to look at as much data that is given.....Stereophile does not post just one graph of a measurement.

cschang

09-02-07, 04:34 PM

You talking about Ivanovic Curtis? Haha, I was just thinking the same thing.
Yeah....I saw her play at the Home Depot Center last month. She is my current favorite. :D

craigsub

09-02-07, 04:43 PM

First, look at all the graphs that were given, it gives a better picture, and then tell that to John Atkinson...he is the expert. :) Forget what I think.

Curtis, I did look at all the graphs. John Atkinson is not going to call a speaker which got a rave review as having a mediocre graph. Stereophile does have a business to run, and one must read between the lines about its wording.

I am calling it a mediocre graph, and it is. We have all seen guys post a FR curve like the Pioneer's and declaring that the speaker is terrible because of that response curve.

After this, I doubt we will see guys posting a graph of a speaker and declaring it to be a terrible performer because it is not ruler flat, as we have seen all too often in the past.

That is a good thing.

On that note, go back to bring a pervert over some 20 year old girl playing tennis ... but, before you go, what channel is she on ? :D

cschang

09-02-07, 04:59 PM

On that note, go back to bring a pervert over some 20 year old girl playing tennis ... but, before you go, what channel is she on ? :D
LOL!! :D On CBS! I was at a friend's yesterday to check out his dedicated home theater. I wish I was there watching this on his JVC RS1 projector! On a sad note...she is getting her a** handed to her by Venus Williams and won't be on much longer.

craigsub

09-02-07, 06:16 PM

Let's face it, guys. Perverts just don't get the respect they deserve.

I did catch the last 4 games. I was wrong, too. She is only 19. My daughter is 14.

TOO close for me to comment ... :eek::D

mziegler

09-02-07, 07:17 PM

Ok, so FR is not the Holy Grail.

Since music consists of instruments that produce sound waves, there should be a mathematical method to measure how well speakers work.

Of course, even a perfect method of mathematical correlation is not possible since it is not really possible to account for every variable--how many degrees of separation are there between the musician performing and us listening at home? How can one control for listening environments? How can one control for differences in the way we individually process sound?

I imagine a device, some sort of digital eq, that would test our own hearing, sample the acoustics of our room, and create adjustment curves. It would also help if there were parameters encoded into the source material that would also communicate with the digital eq. (Please don't flame me for technical shortcomings--I'm not bad at logic, but I really don't understand the technical end).

As it is, is there any kind of consensus about a combination of measurements that are, in combination, relevant?

I just looked at the photo of Ivanovic--"Hey Nineteen."

Grandarf

09-02-07, 07:46 PM

Grandarf, before you wander off into one of your famous defenses of what you own, the graphs were merely presented as being interesting. :)

Huh? Defensive? I was merely commenting on the graphs. Besides, if you don't viciously attack products and people like you're known to, everything should be fine :)

The 170 measures "better" than the Sierra, yet it is pretty well thought of that the Sierras sound better.
Yeah, but they measure better for frequency response, there's other measurements too.

Here's two more graphs:

170SE:
http://ascendacoustics.com/images/products/speakers/cbm170/170SE_CSD.gif

Sierra:
http://ascendacoustics.com/images/products/speakers/SRM1/CSD.gif

As I said in my last post, while the freq.resp. of the 170SE does look better, the cumulative spectral decay tells a different story. Well actually, now that I see them both on the screen at the same time, they both look pretty clean and don't look as different as I thought they would :p

The measurements, while not being the final word on speaker quality, can give a good idea though. Often, certain 'qualities' can show up as a frequency curve, like the other speaker with the bass hump.

Check these out for example:

http://stereophile.com/images/archivesart/Torfig4.jpg (Totem Rainmakers)
http://stereophile.com/images/archivesart/Ma2fig4.jpg (Monitor Audio S2)

Seeing the graphs can really explain a lot of what can be heard, and can really describe fairly accurately the speaker's 'sound'. Well at least in part... the lows, mids and high balance.

Like I said, the Sierra vs the 170, and like curtis said too, is that while the Sierra isn't as flat as the 170, it still has a very good bass/mid/treble balance, as I said, 70hz to 10000hz are all inside 5dB, actually, 90% of the line is within 4dB (+/-2dB), with a small /\ around 750 hz and a very small dip around 3000hz, still very balanced. But the 'line' if we were to draw one would still be pretty straight and horizontal.

If you compare to the other 2 graphs I've posted, the shape of the Rainmakers really shows a big bump in bass, recessed mids, and another big bump in the treble. That will sound a little funky. And it would look something like a U if we were to average it so that it becomes a line. The S2, has more bass than mids, and more mids than treble, which will create a warm sound, with recessed treble... Again, you should be able to hear it, it should have a particular sound. The 'line' this time would show it being relatively straight but going down to the right. (showing predominance to bass and recessed mids)

Frequency response is important though. It's not really a barometer of 'performance' like you said, but more like a visual indicator of the bass/mids/treble balance. If for some listeners a certain curve is what they find better, (like S2 maybe they like that warmth), then it can be an indicator of performance too. If someone wants a speaker with no emphasis or ressessing, then again, straight line would give an indication of good performance.

mziegler: Btw, cumulative spectral decay graphs can also give a good idea sometimes. Here's an example:

Holy crap... Wait... Here's the Pioneer's X1 decay (9000$):
http://stereophile.com/images/archivesart/307P1Xfig8.jpg

here's Wharfedale 9.1 (350$)
http://stereophile.com/images/archivesart/WharfW91fig8.jpg

Yet, the Pioneer is supposed to sound really good? It does appear to have a pretty messy spectral decay! :confused:

I was hoping to find a very clean graphs for the 9000$ speakers, but am surprised that it is as it is... Weird! Am I missing anything?

TrebleVsBass

09-02-07, 07:49 PM

It is interesting to look at the graphs of the Sierras vs. the 170's vs. the Dynaudio 110's...

Here is the 170 FR measurement:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/ascend_cbm170/frequency_listeningwindow.gif

The Sierra:

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/ascend_sierra1/frequency_listeningwindow.gif

The Dynaudio 110's:

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/dynaudio_focus_110/frequency_listeningwindow.gif

And the distortion graph @ 90 dB for the 170:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/ascend_cbm170/thd_90db.gif

The same graph on the Sierras:

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/ascend_sierra1/thd_90db.gif

Finally, for the Dynaudio 110's:

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/dynaudio_focus_110/thd_90db.gif

Grandarf, before you wander off into one of your famous defenses of what you own, the graphs were merely presented as being interesting. :)

They are.

The 170 measures "better" than the Sierra, yet it is pretty well thought of that the Sierras sound better.

It was not that long ago that 170 fans were posting the flat frequency response curve as proof of the 170's great sound quality. Someone tried explaining that a flat response curve was not the last word in sound quality ... (wonder who that was ??? ;)) ...

The Sierras are, in my opinion, a better speaker than the 170, but the graphs certainly don't "prove" that, now do they ?

It is in careful listening that one decides these things.

First of all, if you look at the THD+N graph....sierra wins in all regions (midbass, midrange, treble etc..) except only bass. Overall Sierra is the winner.

The reason why you would feel Sierras are better also in bass could be due to the degradation of the SPL from 90 dB down to 70 dB as you go down to 20 Hz. You are not playing with your receiver's volume knob as you play your music. When it is time to play low frequencies, all of a sudden the 170's bass will sound weaker compared to the rest of the music. You will feel the Sierras to be more punchy. From the measurements, yes Sierras will be more punchy but more distorted although still better than the weaker but cleaner 170s.

Maybe this isn't how it works. I am new to this area, I am just shopping around for speakers and reading the forums lately. Please let me know if I am mistaken. Thank you.

craigsub

09-02-07, 08:05 PM

Gentlemen, I am amazed at the responses here. The simple fact is for several years, there have been a lot of guys posting frequency response curves as "proof" of the superiority or inferiority of a speaker. These alleged superiority or inferiority posts have not been mine.

I have argued AGAINST using FR curves as a form of "proof" of a speaker's performance.

This is not debatable, it has happened on literally dozens of occasions. For clarity, at NO time has anyone posted Spectral Decay Graphs as "proof" of anything. I was speaking directly to the long held habit of guys here posting nothing BUT response curves. I don't know why this is so confusing.

When I point out that the Sierra, which I own and have done hours of listening, sounds better than the 170, which I also own and have done hours of listening, I get arguments that say that frequency response curves are not the best way of assessing a loudspeaker's performance.

Basically ... here is the argument as presented.

Craig: "The Sierra's response curve is not as flat as the 170's response curve. Yet it is my opinion, and the opinion that most have heard both speakers, that the Sierras are a superior speaker. It is pretty clear to me that using frequency response curves, as often happens, to prove a speaker's performance, is wrong".

The answer from various guys here: "Craig, you are wrong. You cannot use frequency response curves as proof of a speaker's performance".

This is just TOO rich. :rolleyes:

And Grandarf ... Attacking products and people ? Interesting accusation. ;)

mziegler

09-02-07, 08:09 PM

If you compare to the other 2 graphs I've posted, the shape of the Rainmakers really shows a big bump in bass, recessed mids, and another big bump in the treble. That will sound a little funky.

Yet when I listened to the 340SE and the Rainmaker, they sounded pretty similar. Although I preferred the 340SE, the room was not very good and that might have minimized their differences.

mziegler: Btw, cumulative spectral decay graphs can also give a good idea sometimes.

Besides resembling a tsunami, what is the point of a spectral decay graph? How does one read one (as in what is good or bad?).

tonygeno

09-02-07, 08:11 PM

Frequency response is certainly one measure of a speaker's performance: others include distortion, cabinet resonances, dispersion characteristics (horizontal and vertical) among others. Certainly, if you isolate frequency response, it would appear, based on the measurements cited, that the 170 is superior to the Sierra. However, when I heard the 170, I was bothered by a persistent cabinet coloration, that would most certainly not show up in a basic frequency response plot. The Sierra, to my ears, suffered from no such coloration.

muzz

09-02-07, 08:42 PM

Gary,

It will be yours as I would like to visit my old amp:D. I will be in touch, maybe in a few weeks but I have a feeling I will order a pair of Sierras before then!

Take care, Bill

Bill, You have the Dynaudio 140's, which are claimed be MANY audiophiles, as being Le'Creme for bookshelves.

I thought they sounded fab for the few songs I heard.....

I think your gonna be surprised myself, I wont brag or anything like that.... you'll hear the quality for yourself, it'll be unmistakable.

At that point, you'll decide on your own...
Which is what I want.

Gary

Grandarf

09-02-07, 09:09 PM

Craig: Sometimes things like a hot treble can give a feeling of superior detail (Just try the test if you have an EQ). In that case, when comparing a speaker with a hot treble vs one which is flat, might indicate why the speaker with the more highs might sound more detailed. (but in fact, it's really brightness). The same thing can happen when a speaker has a bump at around 100 or 120hz, it might seem to have better bass as a speaker without the bump, even if the speaker without the bass extends lower. The graphs help to identify such things. etc etc etc.. FR can help identify those things and are an indication of performance.

Anyhow, your "The simple fact is for several years, there have been a lot of guys posting frequency response curves as "proof" of the superiority or inferiority of a speaker. These alleged superiority or inferiority posts have not been mine." line, I don't remember it that way. It's really possible that FR have been used to somehow try to prove a point, but not to the extent you're insinuating. Anyhow.

"And Grandarf ... Attacking products and people ? Interesting accusation."
Well just like right now you're trying to insinuate that some have always been deaf graph pushers or something :p Besides, I think my accusations held as much weight as yours!

mziegler: You can get some good info 1/2 page on those two links:
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=856&page=2&pp=10&highlight=cumulative+spectral+decay
http://forum.ascendacoustics.com/showthread.php?t=978&highlight=cumulative+spectral+decay

What I'm curious about, why the Pioneer would "sound so good". Sounds like Curtis was drooling over them, the CSD measurements don't seem all that hot to me, for example vs the 350$ Wharfedale, the W looks better to me! Just looking at the CSD graphs, I'd have a tendency to say the 300$ look like they're better...

Though I think I just figured it out. On bottom of Pioneer it says: "17.51 dB 11khz" and the Wharfdale "8.51dB 3khz", so basically, the Pioneer's CSD goes much 'deeper' than the Wharfedale. Or... You see 'more' decay on the Pioneer than on the Wharfedale.

If you take the dB scale bar on the left of both graphs, and superimpose it on the Pioneer, the top of the pioneer would be like 36dB high, but if you do the same for the Wharfedale, you're like at 24dB... So since the P is 'louder' than the W, you see more residual decay. Or, you could see it that the bottom of the graphs; where the line disappear, the 'ground', is higher for W and lower for P. So you see more decay, somewhat like they were in a different 'scale' (but they're the same scales... but P is 'louder'). Which make them hard to compare to one another.

And btw, to reiterate what I've said before, the 170 vs Sierra FR measurements in fact really don't show that much difference. The 170 is exceptionally flat. Which is by itself pretty damn amazing. Few speakers can achieve such precision in FR. Those that do usually costs a LOT MORE than 350$. Take the JMLabs Mini Utopia... http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/jmlab_miniutopia/ Not that different from the 170, which is pretty amazing as far as FR measurements go.

But as tonygeno said, that's not the whole story... Not sure if like you said some said FR was THE WHOLE story and that was the end of everything... I don't remember it that way. I remember saying the FR measurements of Ascend were always impressive, but I don't remember the being used as absolute proof of their absolute superiority to all other speakers without such impressive FR... But who knows, it would be interesting if you dug up the posts :) I'm not known for my great memory! :p

cschang

09-02-07, 09:11 PM

I have argued AGAINST using FR curves as a form of "proof" of a speaker's performance.

From the looks of it, I think people are agreeing with you. It is one aspect, but not the whole ball of wax.

JasonColeman

09-02-07, 09:14 PM

Wow...it seems like the thread has taken an interesting turn.

I figured I'd take an opportunity to post some pics of the most recent batch of stands that I just finished and shipped yesterday. A couple of differences on round 2: I finished the stands with a semi-gloss clear lacquer (which is what Dave F said that is used on the Sierras) instead of tung oil. The results are, in my opinion, perfect. Also, I followed another forum member's suggestion and tried GR Research spikes and love them. They're a bit more money, but definitely a superior product. Also, I rounded over the front corners of the top plate to match the profile of the baffle on the Sierra. Finally, I added a solid block in the bottom of the columns and glued and caulked it in so that when adding sand, there isn't any concern about the connection between the column and the base.

On with the pics:

Roundover on the top plate:
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/Roundover.jpg

New spikes:
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/NewSpikes.jpg

Spikes mounted:
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/SpikesMounted.jpg

One of the short stands and one of the tall stands:
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/Side-by-Side.jpg

Pic of one of the short stands:
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/ShortStand2.jpg

Pic of one of the tall stands:
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/TallStand.jpg

Pic with speaker:
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/TallSansGrille.jpg

Pic with speaker no grille:
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z285/vikingdwarf/BugsEyeView.jpg

Shipping has been between $35 and $55 depending on size, weight, and destination.

J.

craigsub

09-02-07, 09:16 PM

From the looks of it, I think people are agreeing with you. It is one aspect, but not the whole ball of wax.

Really ... There sure is a lot of counterposting for people agreeing with me, and accusations of attacks on people and products.

Back to my original point ... Curtis, in the case of the Pioneers you heard, were they bright, neutral or warm sounding ?

cschang

09-02-07, 09:18 PM

Back to my original point ... Curtis, in the case of the Pioneers you heard, were they bright, neutral or warm sounding ?
To my ears...the warm side of neutral.

cschang

09-02-07, 09:21 PM

tonygeno

09-02-07, 09:22 PM

Jason:

Stunning job. Congratulations on some excellent woodworking skills.

craigsub

09-02-07, 09:29 PM

Jason ... Those stands are gorgeous ... do you have a link to where your pricing is ?

muzz

09-02-07, 09:54 PM

VERY well done Jason!!
These look primo bud- good job!!

The sierras are a dam good sounding speaker, anyone that says otherwise......

is a clown.

GTZ

09-02-07, 09:55 PM

Jason,

As somewhat of a woodworker myself let me also congratulate you on your excellent work, you're a craftsman. You make it hard to tell which came first, the chicken or the egg, I mean the speaker or the stand.

mziegler

09-02-07, 09:56 PM

Jason ... Those stands are gorgeous ...

Ditto.

The problem with the taller one is that it makes me start thinking that I could buy another pair of Sierras to replace my HTM-200s.

craigsub

09-02-07, 09:57 PM

Ditto.

The problem with the taller one is that it makes me start thinking that I could buy another pair of Sierras to replace my HTM-200s.

Think of it as yet another way in which you are supporting the economy ... :D

JasonColeman

09-02-07, 09:58 PM

Sweet!!! Is the tall one mine? Wait...I think you shipped mine yesterday.
Yep...the big boys belong to you! I only had the spikes mounted in the one pic showing them off. They really turned out beautiful. I packed the b'jesus (intentional sp) out of them, so hopefully UPS will facilitate their unscathed arrival. I'm still in the process of writing up simple assembly instructions (as I can't ship them with the top and bottom caps installed), so I'll email them to you.

I hope you like them as much as I do!

J.

JasonColeman

09-02-07, 10:02 PM

Jason:

Stunning job. Congratulations on some excellent woodworking skills.

Thanks, Tony...I was hoping not to break forum decorum with non-Sierra posts! :D

J.

mazersteven

09-02-07, 10:16 PM

Sweet Stands http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/images/smilies/rock.gif

Grandarf

09-03-07, 12:27 AM

Really ... There sure is a lot of counterposting for people agreeing with me, and accusations of attacks on people and products.
Grandarf, before you wander off into one of your famous defenses of what you own, the graphs were merely presented as being interesting.
Like I said, "famous defense of what I own"? Wtf? I'm not sure what was your exact intention with that comment, but it definitely has a pejorative connotation to me. You really don't have to look far to find justification to my 'accusation' of you attacking people. :rolleyes:

I also find comments like "people who use graphs to "prove" the superiority or inferiority of a particular loudspeaker, depending on the agenda." after posting Sierra graphs pretty pejorative too. Depending on the agenda? :rolleyes:

The simple fact is for several years, there have been a lot of guys posting frequency response curves as "proof" of the superiority or inferiority of a speaker.
(of course, speaker being Ascend 170)
It's EASY to make blank accusations like that my friend. Just like your other poor taste comment you made against me... And btw, what's the point? What's your goal? What are you trying to accomplish with your empty accusations? At least if you post proof we can look at it and see if it's warranted... Like I said, if you dig up say I dunno like 5 post per person who supposedly posted FR graphs FOR YEARS as PROOF of the superiority or inferiority of a speaker it would be one thing. But just throwing it like that is of very poor taste. I called you on it for one in an earlier post but you simply ignored it.

Seriously, either prove it, or shut the hell up about it. At least with examples of such posts whoever you're accusing would be able to defend himself.

You would not like it if said that you've always had an axe to grind against Ascend... And that you even purposely incorrectly setup some products in your 'comparisons' to put them down because it fit your agenda. And that now you're just continuing to try to put down a particular brand or/and their owners with your accusations... You'd go: "wait no that didn't happen", I'd say yes it did it's a just a simple fact. And you'd say no, I'd say yes... And we'd get nowhere because there's no proof anyhow, it's just empty accusations, but it would just leave a bad mark, doubt on yourself... Well you're doing the same damn thing here. Is that what you're trying to do?

Posting graphs is fine. Discussing them is fine. Accusations and comments like yours are not. So why don't you just drop this ******** and stick to discussing speakers, and not commenting or accusing owners of a certain brand...

As I said, the 170s have always showed exceptional FR measurements. That was, IS, one of Ascend speakers STRENGTHS. A NEUTRAL SOUND. Which could be demonstrated by showing ACCURATE FREQUENCY RESPONSE MEASUREMENTS. Of course it's going to be brought up.

You said that for several years, it's been brought up as absolute proof that these 350$ speakers were the absolute best speakers because of the FR graphs? How many MORE pages are you going to drag this out? Really, either prove it and show us some threads, or shut up about it. Seriously... :cool:

JasonColeman

09-03-07, 03:06 AM

Sweet Stands http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/images/smilies/rock.gif

Thanks!

J.

Ascend

09-03-07, 03:31 AM

Come on guys --- this is a good informative thread, let's keep it civil.

Regarding measurements, the CBM-170 was designed to be exactly what it turned out to be -- critically neutral. That was the speaker's primary goal and even 7 years later there are few that can compare.

The Sierra was designed with a different set of criteria, it was designed to eliminate / reduce the majority of negative influences that a loudspeaker will "add" to the source material (ie resonance, phase anomolies, various distortions etc.). It was also designed such that off-axis performance takes priority over on-axis performance. Simply different design goals...

Doug Schneider, the most experienced and knowledgeable reviewer to review the Sierra-1 so far had this to say "What I was hearing was more recorded detail -- something that’s often obscured by all but the best speakers, which are also often some of the most expensive. Nor was this clarity and detail in just one area of the audioband -- I heard it across the board, from the lowest points that the Sierra-1s could reach right up through the highs."

and

"Some may think that all this detail I was hearing was simply a result of a tipped-up treble, something that’s done in some speaker designs to give the perception of heightened detail -- sort of like punching up the color and contrast on a video display to make the picture seem more alive. In fact, it was the opposite. The Sierra-1 sounded well balanced from top to bottom of the audioband, even if it didn’t seem quite as unfalteringly neutral as the CBM-170 had in my room"

Doug basically nailed it with those statements... The Sierra-1 was built from the ground up for clarity and precise imaging, while also being musical and easy to listen to -- allowing you to really listen deep into the recording. Few speakers at any price point will measure as flat as the CBM-170 or CBM-170 SE (including the Sierra-1) but the CBM-170 will not present as accurate a soundstage, be nearly as musical or provide the low-level resolution and detail that the Sierra-1 is capable of.

JasonColeman -- Your stands are gorgeous and I see an opportunity for you, please send me an email when you get a chance -- we should discuss it :)

craigsub

09-03-07, 08:14 AM

Like I said, "famous defense of what I own"? Wtf? I'm not sure what was your exact intention with that comment, but it definitely has a pejorative connotation to me. You really don't have to look far to find justification to my 'accusation' of you attacking people. :rolleyes:

I also find comments like "people who use graphs to "prove" the superiority or inferiority of a particular loudspeaker, depending on the agenda." after posting Sierra graphs pretty pejorative too. Depending on the agenda? :rolleyes:

(of course, speaker being Ascend 170)
It's EASY to make blank accusations like that my friend. Just like your other poor taste comment you made against me... And btw, what's the point? What's your goal? What are you trying to accomplish with your empty accusations? At least if you post proof we can look at it and see if it's warranted... Like I said, if you dig up say I dunno like 5 post per person who supposedly posted FR graphs FOR YEARS as PROOF of the superiority or inferiority of a speaker it would be one thing. But just throwing it like that is of very poor taste. I called you on it for one in an earlier post but you simply ignored it.

Seriously, either prove it, or shut the hell up about it. At least with examples of such posts whoever you're accusing would be able to defend himself.

You would not like it if said that you've always had an axe to grind against Ascend... And that you even purposely incorrectly setup some products in your 'comparisons' to put them down because it fit your agenda. And that now you're just continuing to try to put down a particular brand or/and their owners with your accusations... You'd go: "wait no that didn't happen", I'd say yes it did it's a just a simple fact. And you'd say no, I'd say yes... And we'd get nowhere because there's no proof anyhow, it's just empty accusations, but it would just leave a bad mark, doubt on yourself... Well you're doing the same damn thing here. Is that what you're trying to do?

Posting graphs is fine. Discussing them is fine. Accusations and comments like yours are not. So why don't you just drop this ******** and stick to discussing speakers, and not commenting or accusing owners of a certain brand...

As I said, the 170s have always showed exceptional FR measurements. That was, IS, one of Ascend speakers STRENGTHS. A NEUTRAL SOUND. Which could be demonstrated by showing ACCURATE FREQUENCY RESPONSE MEASUREMENTS. Of course it's going to be brought up.

You said that for several years, it's been brought up as absolute proof that these 350$ speakers were the absolute best speakers because of the FR graphs? How many MORE pages are you going to drag this out? Really, either prove it and show us some threads, or shut up about it. Seriously... :cool:

Grandarf ... I never said one person ever called the 170 the best speaker ever made.

This is what I said:

the graphs were merely presented as being interesting. :)

They are.

The 170 measures "better" than the Sierra, yet it is pretty well thought of that the Sierras sound better.

It was not that long ago that 170 fans were posting the flat frequency response curve as proof of the 170's great sound quality. Someone tried explaining that a flat response curve was not the last word in sound quality ... (wonder who that was ??? ;) ) ...

The Sierras are, in my opinion, a better speaker than the 170, but the graphs certainly don't "prove" that, now do they ?

It is in careful listening that one decides these things.

If you need further clarification of this, take it to PM's.

Tarpon

09-04-07, 10:04 AM

Congratulations to everyone at Ascend for the great Sierra 1 reviews at Soundstage and Enjoythemusic.com!

JasonColeman

09-04-07, 10:11 AM

Jason ... Those stands are gorgeous ... do you have a link to where your pricing is ?
Each pair so far has been quite different, so I've been working up prices on an individual basis. So far, they're running between $180 and $260 before shipping.

J.

cschang

09-04-07, 06:03 PM

Congratulations to everyone at Ascend for the great Sierra 1 reviews at Soundstage and Enjoythemusic.com!
Another one at Affordable Audio just came out too in the September issue.

http://www.affordableaudio.org/

craigsub

09-04-07, 07:12 PM

Each pair so far has been quite different, so I've been working up prices on an individual basis. So far, they're running between $180 and $260 before shipping.

J.

Jason ... I will take a pair ... how do I order ?

Grandarf

09-04-07, 08:10 PM

Good review :)

one is forced to ask what gains you can expect when stepping into pricier territory. While that answer can vary, when I compared the Sierra 1 directly to more expensive speakers such as the Mark and Daniel Topaz ($1800), Tyler Acoustic Linbrook Super Mini ($1200), and the Totem Acoustic Staff ($1700), it became immediately apparent that those gains come in the form of refinement, resolution, and tone. While tone is an aspect of presentation that I am most critical on, it is also important to remember that it is one of the more difficult elements to define as it is a reference point that is intensely personal. In most case scenarios, the reference of tone is nothing more than a memory that your brain associates with live music you’ve experienced in the past – which is significantly influenced by the atmosphere of the event, the acoustics of the venue, along with the instrument type, build, tune, and position. While the Sierra 1 has respectable tone that surpasses many speakers I’ve heard in and well above its price range, I felt it still lacked that last ounce of layer and personal touch that really draws me into the music. While there is a good chance that these results are also a function of the electronics used with the Sierra 1, just as in the real world – there is only so much one can have access to.

tone... Ooooouh! I've owned the Totem Sttafs and let me tell you that the Sierra-1 tone simply OBLITERATES the Sttafs... for about twice the price of the Sierra-1, I could not find ONE thing which the Sttafs did better. Not one! The bass of the Sierra outclasses the Sttaf's, first in clarity, then in punchyness and even extension. Like he said, tone is highly personal, but I would not trade my Sierra-1 for a pair of Sttafs...

Actually, when I got the 340SEs I sold off the Sttafs! The Sttafs did have slightly wider soundstage than the 340SE, but imaging was very close.,Sttafs did have lower bass than 340SEs, but the 340SE's bass was more accurate & was tighter. The tone, again, I'd have to give to the Ascends (340SE), and not by a small margin.

Anyhow, tone is personal, and if someone prefers colored speakers, with a 'warmth' quality to them, then sure, Sttafs could be said to have better tone. He could have probably gotten a sound closer to the Sttafs by putting the Sierras very close to the backwall, it would have reinforced the bass, and would have gotten a sound closer to Sttaf... Anyhow :)

craigsub: You will just hate this part.
Meanwhile, I will say the same thing about the Ascend Sierra 1 as I did about the Tyler’s – balance and coherence is truly the name of their game. In fact, I would go on a limb to say that the Sierra 1 is the most electronically accurate speaker I’ve heard at and under the 1k range – something I don’t say lightly as plenty of excellent speakers have entered these walls.
lol Now don't start something like you did in the other thread or I'm reporting you to the mods! :p

JasonColeman

09-05-07, 05:54 AM

Jason ... I will take a pair ... how do I order ?
PM me with the specs (overall height, dimensions of column, size of base plate, spikes/no spikes) and any other features you'd like (cable management or whatever) and I'll work up a price for you.

Thanks!

J.

Mitch G

09-05-07, 09:22 AM

Another one at Affordable Audio just came out too in the September issue.

http://www.affordableaudio.org/

Nice review. One question I hope someone can answer.
In the review, he mentions that the speakers "beam" at higher volumes.
Can someone explain what this term means?

Mitch

JasonColeman

09-05-07, 09:36 AM

Typically, beaming would refer to a speaker's "line of fire" but I don't know how that would be affected by volume, unless he's suggesting that the directionality of the sound changes as the volume increases. He might be referring to becoming "bright" or "harsh" but I haven't experienced that with the Sierras at all.

J.

cschang

09-05-07, 09:37 AM

Nice review. One question I hope someone can answer.
In the review, he mentions that the speakers "beam" at higher volumes.
Can someone explain what this term means?

Mitch
I believe it means it loses its dispersion qualities. I would think if you are running that high of volume, you would probably be better off with the 340SE.

Ahh...Jason beat me to it.

JasonColeman

09-05-07, 09:42 AM

Well, we are 3 hours ahead of you guys out there...! :D

J.

Mitch G

09-05-07, 11:02 AM

JasonColeman

09-05-07, 12:16 PM

After some searching, I've also seen the term "beaming" used to describe harshness or brightness in the upper frequencies. Again, I've never experienced that with the Sierras, but I also haven't driven them to tears yet. I have yet to hook up my Anthem MCA-20 to them, which will have to wait until I'm done building a component rack, which will have to wait until I'm done building stands for folks...not that I'm complaining! :D

J.

cschang

09-05-07, 12:43 PM

Hmmm. If it's a dispersion phenomenon, why would that become "fatiguing?"
So, maybe it's more of a harshness/brightness thing. But, why call that beaming?
Maybe I should just email the reviewer.

Mitch
If you do email the reviewer, ask him how large his room is, how far he sits from the speakers, and what kind of SPL he is listening to when the beaming occurs.

I am like Jason, I have not heard harshness/beaming yet, but I also know that I have plenty of good clean power....my room is not large at 14x18 and I sit about 10' from the speakers.

Mitch G

09-05-07, 02:09 PM

Well, too late. I already sent the email and received the response - see below. I'll let one of you guys grill him on his room dimensions and dynamics. :)

--- Sean Fowler regarding the term "beamy" used in his Sierra-1 review ---

At some point in our lives, we’ve all experienced that guy or gal who, even in a crowd of hundreds, has a speaking voice that projects well above everyone else around them. Despite all efforts to block out that said individual, you just can’t. They’re born voice is loud and shouty.

The Sierra 1 is kind a hybrid to the above example. At regular listening levels (say, below 90db) – the speakers can project well into a space without overwhelming your ears with an abundance of sound. However, once you increase the output past 90db, their sound becomes much more center focused resulting in an emphasized spike in the upper mid-range and treble. Some audiophiles use the adjective “shouty” – I used “beam”. There really is no difference. It is just an adjecti! ve used to describe an experience as it relates to a real world experience, such as the man or woman with endowed vocal chords.

As an aside; traditionally a speaker’s sonic signature remains the same as the volume increases – all the way until they reach their limits and distortion sets in. Each design has its own unique response once this threshold has been met. Naturally, some will reach this limit well before others. Some transducers, like the Sierra 1 – will behave differently at higher volumes, resulting in a slight shift in presentation all the while still delivering good, clean output.

cschang

09-05-07, 02:19 PM

Thanks Mitch...very interesting.

I wonder if that could also be a room issue. I am pretty sure I have had the speakers louder than that...then again, my room might be smaller too.

Lindahl

09-05-07, 02:51 PM

Sounds to me like dynamic compression in the bass, which can certainly change the tonality of a speaker. Nothing unusual, considering the Sierra's size.

Ascend

09-05-07, 03:33 PM

That is an interesting response from Sean, and something that I must disagree with. A loudspeaker's "sonic signature" or tone will not vary until mechanical and/or thermal limitations are reached.

What Sean might have experienced at these loud listening levels is due to the current (power) limitations of the electronics being used. When an audio signal is compressed because the amplification stage reproducing it can not fully reproduce the dynamic range required, due to a lack of available power, subtle directional cues and the overall soundstage is squashed. The overall balance in a recording gets lost. For example, vocals often require the widest dynamic range in music, from a whisper to a flat-out scream. The dynamic range required can easily exceed 20 dB (the ability to instantaneously reproduce up to 20dB more output) 20 dB of headroom requires over 120 watts of power to accurately reproduce without compression and/or clipping.

It is my understanding that much of Sean's listening was done using the Red Wine Audio Sig 30 amp, a 30-watt amplifier. Less power than I recommend for the Sierra-1.

In Sean's email response, he mentions "an emphasized spike in the upper mid-range and treble" as volume approaches 90dB. This spike, as Sean mentioned, simply does not exist in the speaker -- as clearly evidences by the NRC measurement graph Deviation from Linearity (from this page here: http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/ascend_sierra1/)

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/ascend_sierra1/linearity_90db.gif

This graph shows the difference in frequency response between 70dB and 90dB SPL. You will notice that it is ruler flat from 200Hz on up (0dB deviation), indicating that there is absolutely no difference in the response at these two output levels (this is quite impressive actually and there is that 20dB of headroom I mentioned ;) ) It is also important to state that this is 90dB output at 2 meters in an anechoic (reflection free) room. This is easily equivalent to 96dB SPL in-room whereby sound waves will reflect off objects. That output level is also from a single speaker as opposed to two, in other words -- this is extremely loud and thus subjecting the loudspeaker to harsh conditions that few would ever do, simply too loud to listen to comfortably. Even with these harsh conditions, there is no frequency response deviation and distortion at these high levels is also extremely low (eliminating another possibility of what Sean might have heard).

I do not doubt Sean heard something different at 90dB and above, however, I have very strong doubts that it was the speaker that was causing this.

Hope this is some useful information!

Ascend

09-05-07, 03:52 PM

Sounds to me like dynamic compression in the bass, which can certainly change the tonality of a speaker. Nothing unusual, considering the Sierra's size.

This is what I initially thought too, that the woofer was reaching its excursion limits thus throwing the balance of the speaker off and emphasizing the mids and highs more -- but, this should not occur at 90dB output in-room from a stereo pair. Sean mentioned a distinct spike in the frequency response in the upper mids and treble region, which would indicate something different than a woofer reaching its mechanical/thermal limits.

Anyway, I had some time to kill as my son just started Kindergarten today :) Unfortunately, now I must head back to the office for my "day job" :rolleyes:

Sean, if you are reading this, please don't misunderstand, as I already mentioned to you, all-in-all I thought it was a great review, very well written with great pics! It is just nice to compare/discuss the various experiences from all the reviewers, since all of them were a bit different. So many reviews hit at the same time making comparing them quite easy…

Schadenfreude

09-05-07, 04:25 PM

I am encouraged to see some people stepping out and acknowledging that they are recognizing the limitations of FR as it relates to what makes one speaker superior to another ,and the example of the 170's and the Sierra's is one that seems to make the point well. Having heard both speakers, finally, side-by-side , I would agree that the Sierra's are superior to the 170's, and doubt I would find many that would argue (though it is a subjective and personal opinion). Subjective and personal opinions can, however, be shared by many people and hence a popular sentiment can become statistically significant, though there may be no way of objectively determining why.
Over years of listening to, and reading about, speakers, I realize that more and more of my preconcieved notions and sacred cows get skewered when I listen blind and don't read the graphs first, look at the driver accompanyment, or read about the crossover design , etc.
While objective data may be useful after the fact in helping me correlate what I've heard , I find it biasing to look at it first as it may make me imagine things that I otherwise wouldn't hear.
I have repeated another's suggestion before that many should try listening to and critiquing (blind) several speakers that they aren't familiar with and then try to match their notes with the appropriate graphs and measurements. No doubt some experts can do this, but the excercise is quite humbling for many.
Many a speaker's final voicing is done by ear, and many speaker designs that have looked good on paper have been rather disappointing and sounded inaccurate (though objectively no one could say why), but suggesting that a speaker with FR flaws could still be a great speaker has often been met with harsh criticism by many on these forums and the requisit graph as definitive proof of "badness" is almost always posted. The Pioneer speaker is a good example of that.
The fact that it is very difficult to get an identical set of measurements made under the same conditions , with the same test equipment, in the same room, made by the same testing personel, is reason enough, in my experiance, to reject comparing two speakers , that I'm interested in, in this way, not to mention, that even then the measurements (if you read info disputing reviews) were not taken in a manner conducive to real world set-up or listening conditions as recommended or assumed by the speaker designer.
Then take into account that we still see a consistant number of well respected and seasoned reviewers speak so highly of some model that is so seemingly flawed with respect to these objective measurements , and I think that the simplest measuring device and easiest answer is to trust our own ears in personal comparisons and damn any other, less important, metric.

I, again, am pleased to see people putting further emphasis on the notion of listening to speakers.

Lindahl

09-05-07, 06:59 PM

This is what I initially thought too, that the woofer was reaching its excursion limits thus throwing the balance of the speaker off and emphasizing the mids and highs more -- but, this should not occur at 90dB output in-room from a stereo pair.

Yes, your analysis seems more likely - a possible amplifier issue. 30 watts is seriously underpowering the Sierras when asking for even modestly high output. However, I would think that a reviewer would have tried more power when asking for high output from a small speaker (low sensitivity), but maybe not? It'll be interesting to see what Sean says.

While serious midbass compression at 90 dB is highly unlikely, Craig did notice straining in the Sierras starting at the high 80s in the lowest frequencies. If this straining was pushed even further, to 90db+, could it be the cause of some modulation in the midbass and midrange? If so, perhaps this was some of the harshness that Sean was referring to. While you certainly can't take Craig's (or anyone's) results as gospel, it may provide some insight.

Sierra stressed at 36hz:
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/5941/sierra36hzmp8.th.jpg (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sierra36hzmp8.jpg)

Sierra stressed at 45hz:
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/5395/sierra45hzox5.th.jpg (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sierra45hzox5.jpg)

Ascend

09-05-07, 07:28 PM

Congratulations to everyone at Ascend for the great Sierra 1 reviews at Soundstage and Enjoythemusic.com!

Thanks Tarpon!!!

Ascend

09-05-07, 09:56 PM

While serious midbass compression at 90 dB is highly unlikely, Craig did notice straining in the Sierras starting at the high 80s in the lowest frequencies. If this straining was pushed even further, to 90db+, could it be the cause of some modulation in the midbass and midrange? If so, perhaps this was some of the harshness that Sean was referring to. While you certainly can't take Craig's (or anyone's) results as gospel, it may provide some insight.

Sierra stressed at 36hz:
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/5941/sierra36hzmp8.th.jpg (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sierra36hzmp8.jpg)

Sierra stressed at 45hz:
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/5395/sierra45hzox5.th.jpg (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sierra45hzox5.jpg)

I will be the first to tell anyone that deep bass at high output levels from such a small speaker can have negative effects on midrange performance (for ANY loudspeaker) -- but the type of effects that would be experienced would be more so of a loss of detail (as the VC windings have extended past the magnetic gap such that the woofer will not be completing a full frequency cycle, resulting in audible compression and/or the lack of detail). From Sean's review: "Even though the Sierra 1 maintains a distortion free sound at higher output levels, I found the speakers to lose a bit of their soundstage and beam as the volume increased."

This is the opposite effect one would expect with a woofer that is straining. Rather than "beam" -- or become more directional or present a peak, upper mids would be glossed over, sounding dull and be less directional because less high-frequency information from the woofer would be reproduced.

Additionally, Sean then mentions listener fatigue at such high volumes, which is a key indicator that the problematic area lies in the tweeter bandwidth -- not woofer bandwidth, and no matter how much or how little the woofer is straining, in a parallel crossover network, the woofer will not have any effect on the tweeter performance.

In my experience, these are all classic signs of amplifier strain.

I am unsure of the test methodology of the graphs you posted, but it is obvious that these were made with steady state sine waves, infinitely more demanding than music. I am also unsure at what distance the mic is from the speakers.

This graph is quite interesting:

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/5941/sierra36hzmp8.th.jpg (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sierra36hzmp8.jpg)

That is a 36Hz sine wave, a full 1/4 octave below the port tune of the speaker. Running a sine wave at a frequency below port tune in order to determine strain or compression is a bad idea. The woofer is completely unloaded at this frequency. Any woofer in a ported cabinet will strain and compress at frequencies below the port tune. Still, the Sierra-1 woofer performed better than I would have expected at this frequency. It looks like Craig measured just over 80dB output, in what I am assuming is a large room but I don't know the mic distance, regardless, 2nd order distortion remained at just under 10%! I will say with complete honesty that those numbers are even better than I would have expected -- I am surprised the woofer cone itself didn't break free from the surround and shoot across the room. I will be sending the speaker patrol to Craig's house as this is clear violation of loudspeaker abuse laws. :p

This test is more reasonable as this frequency is close to the port tune.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/5395/sierra45hzox5.th.jpg (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sierra45hzox5.jpg)

Craig measured nearly 90dB output at 45 Hz with about 7% distortion. This is in the realm of a few so called subwoofers ;) ...

Again, it is important to stress that these are steady state sine waves.

Returning to the current topic, these graphs further confirm (at least to me) that what Sean heard was definitely not caused by possible woofer excursion limitations.

In addition, and in answer to your excellent question:

While serious midbass compression at 90 dB is highly unlikely, Craig did notice straining in the Sierras starting at the high 80s in the lowest frequencies. If this straining was pushed even further, to 90db+, could it be the cause of some modulation in the midbass and midrange? If so, perhaps this was some of the harshness that Sean was referring to.

At 36Hz, Craig measured approximately 80dB output. At 45Hz, Craig measured nearly 90dB. Let us assume the -3dB point of the speaker is 45Hz. Thus in Craig's room, at 36Hz, the speaker is -13dB down. This is a reasonable assumption. The sensitivity of the speaker is 86dB. To reach 90dB at these low frequency levels would mean that the passband must be at 103dB. (13dB + 90dB).

In direct answer to your question, assuming Sean was listening at 2 meters back, to reach 90dB+ output level at those low frequencies, the passband output of the speaker would be at 103dB. Ouch! Too loud to listen to and also requiring over 260 watts of power to get there, Far beyond the limits of the electronics being used and also not what Sean could have experienced.

craigsub

09-05-07, 10:19 PM

xcjago

09-05-07, 10:48 PM

Thanks Davef, for the technical, yet easy to understand, explanation. It definitely looks to be amplifier strain as opposed to speaker strain.

mziegler

09-05-07, 11:23 PM

Thanks Davef, for the technical, yet easy to understand, explanation.

Easy for you, perhaps (as I walk away muttering "damn techie").

Ascend

09-06-07, 12:07 AM

David, Those graphs were taken at my listening position, and 3 different speakers were tested, the Sierras, B&W 805S and Swan D2.1 SE's. The purpose was merely to give guys a snapshot of how well all three would do as full range speakers. For best results when listening to louder music, a 60 Hz crossover is preferable, as mentioned elsewhere. :)

That being said, they are impressive, even without a subwoofer.

Craig,

Thanks for the explanation. I am just happy the Sierra-1 survived that 36Hz test. That little woofer must have been doing some serious "woofing" at that frequency.

For no reason other than my own, how far back was your listening position when you ran these tests?

And yes, as you well know --- I am a strong proponent for proper bass management. For loud listening levels, crossing over at 60Hz is definitely recommended.

craigsub

09-06-07, 07:11 AM

Craig,

Thanks for the explanation. I am just happy the Sierra-1 survived that 36Hz test. That little woofer must have been doing some serious "woofing" at that frequency.

For no reason other than my own, how far back was your listening position when you ran these tests?

And yes, as you well know --- I am a strong proponent for proper bass management. For loud listening levels, crossing over at 60Hz is definitely recommended.

The room is 14 feet wide, and the listening position about 11 feet from each speaker.

Most of my listening is done at 60-80 dB, with an occasional peak above that, when music is the issue.

When I want to go for some good rock, it takes about 10 seconds to switch in the crossover and subwoofer.

We are having a small listening session with some AVsers ... and about 12 bookshelf speakers will be here ... for this, a crossover @ 60 Hz will be in use at all times.

cschang

09-06-07, 10:11 AM

We are having a small listening session with some AVsers ... and about 12 bookshelf speakers will be here ... for this, a crossover @ 60 Hz will be in use at all times.
When switching between speakers, you have to recalibrate the sub each time right? Or do you do that all beforehand and just take note of what the setting is at the pre/pro and adjust accordingly when switching? Which pre/pro and amp are you going to use?

A few of us are going to listen to some speakers here, and I think it is only fair to use a sub with some of them, but the subwoofer integration takes some time between switching, and I want to make the changes are as quick as possible between speakers. Trying to figure out the best way to do that.

Lindahl

09-06-07, 10:53 AM

This is the opposite effect one would expect with a woofer that is straining. Rather than "beam" -- or become more directional or present a peak, upper mids would be glossed over, sounding dull and be less directional because less high-frequency information from the woofer would be reproduced.

Thanks Dave. I really had no clue what the audible problems in the midrange would sound like when a woofer was strained with deep bass, so I was really looking forward to your answer.

That is a 36Hz sine wave, a full 1/4 octave below the port tune of the speaker. Running a sine wave at a frequency below port tune in order to determine strain or compression is a bad idea. The woofer is completely unloaded at this frequency.

Yes, a very scary testing method. However, I'm pretty sure Craig slowly turned up the volume, listening for woofer strain. The woofer strain would certainly become noticeable before it flew across the room. ;)

Craig measured nearly 90dB output at 45 Hz with about 7% distortion. This is in the realm of a few so called subwoofers ;)

Not one that I'd have anywhere near my house. :D

craigsub

09-06-07, 11:04 AM

When switching between speakers, you have to recalibrate the sub each time right? Or do you do that all beforehand and just take note of what the setting is at the pre/pro and adjust accordingly when switching? Which pre/pro and amp are you going to use?

A few of us are going to listen to some speakers here, and I think it is only fair to use a sub with some of them, but the subwoofer integration takes some time between switching, and I want to make the changes are as quick as possible between speakers. Trying to figure out the best way to do that.

For a bookshelf comparison, I will have the Emotiva LMC-1/LPA-1 set up in 2.1 mode.

Speaker wires will go from the LPA-1 into the remote switcher, then to each pair of speakers.

The speaker switcher allows for level matching, so the relative level of the subwoofer to the speakers remains constant for each pair of speakers.

The remote switcher also has the ability for 4 speaker pairs to be played at once, though I will only be doing 2.

Each speaker pair will have pre-set levels on the switcher, so when I hook 2 up for a comparison, level matching will already be done.

I also ordered speaker grill cloth in a 70 inch "high" x 15 feet "wide" behind which will be the speakers.

With about 12 pairs of speakers from which to choose, instant level matched switching, and a subwoofer already pre-set for each pair with a 60 Hz crossover, it should be quite the comparison.

Without a proper speaker switcher, doing something like this is difficult.

cschang

09-06-07, 11:18 AM

Ahhh....that switcher is the key...and I don't have one. :(

thanks.

tonygeno

09-06-07, 01:54 PM

For a bookshelf comparison, I will have the Emotiva LMC-1/LPA-1 set up in 2.1 mode.

Speaker wires will go from the LPA-1 into the remote switcher, then to each pair of speakers.

The speaker switcher allows for level matching, so the relative level of the subwoofer to the speakers remains constant for each pair of speakers.

The remote switcher also has the ability for 4 speaker pairs to be played at once, though I will only be doing 2.

Each speaker pair will have pre-set levels on the switcher, so when I hook 2 up for a comparison, level matching will already be done.

I also ordered speaker grill cloth in a 70 inch "high" x 15 feet "wide" behind which will be the speakers.

With about 12 pairs of speakers from which to choose, instant level matched switching, and a subwoofer already pre-set for each pair with a 60 Hz crossover, it should be quite the comparison.

Without a proper speaker switcher, doing something like this is difficult.

Maybe you've mentioned it before, but where can one buy that type of switcher. With the different speakers that make their way through my house, it sounds like a handy little tool.