Maybe a simple question. I have a Pioneer VSX-816 and a MTX SW2 12" powered sub. I have the sub connected via the dedicated subwoofer connection on the receiver. Mains have their own connections. I have the crossover set to 80 Hz on the Pioneer. The sub also has a dial that goes from 60 - 180 Hz. I would think this knob would not have an effect with the receiver doing the LFE management, but it does. The more I dial the sub to the high Hz setting, the more bass and "boomy??" it gets. Should I set it for 80 Hz, same as the receiver?

Set the crossover on the sub (knob) to 180 hz and forget it. Your Pioneer will only send anything below 80 hs to your sub. I had the same issue when I first set up my HT and not knowing anything about what I was doing. Cruise all the forums that you can find and get an education. The Polk forum has a extended library on knowledge that is a excellent reference.

Also, go to http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=824554 for some really excellent advice to further your education. It's not just bringing home all the stuff that yhou need for HT, it's also what do you really do with the stuff to get the sound and vision that you want.

In some cases using both crossovers (your subs and your receiver's) and staggering the settings ( ie; 80 receiver, 120 sub) may offer better results. This will provide a steeper slope near the frequency limit of your sub and in some instances provide cleaner output, especially if your sub doesn't have a separate high pass filter. Like everything else you need to experiment with your settings to discover the best results.

Ian

Maybe a simple question. I have a Pioneer VSX-816 and a MTX SW2 12" powered sub. I have the sub connected via the dedicated subwoofer connection on the receiver. Mains have their own connections. I have the crossover set to 80 Hz on the Pioneer. The sub also has a dial that goes from 60 - 180 Hz. I would think this knob would not have an effect with the receiver doing the LFE management, but it does. The more I dial the sub to the high Hz setting, the more bass and "boomy??" it gets. Should I set it for 80 Hz, same as the receiver?

By lowering the crossover on your sub, you are using two circuits to do your bass management, instead of one. That will not give you the effect that you want. You only want to engage one cross over to do your bass management... the one on your receiver.

Make sure all your speakers are set to small and that your LFE is set to "SUB" only. Set your receiver's crossover to 80 Hz, and dissable the crossover on your sub. If your sub does not have a dedicated switch to dissable the cross over, turn the setting all the way up, (180hz in your case). This will have the effect of allowing your receiver's cross over to do the work way before your sub's cross over has a chance to engage. Let the cross over on your receiver do ALL the work. It is in a better position to manage all your bass settings.

Thanks for all the replies. All speakers are set to small, and I am set for sub only Pioneer calls it "plus" to have bass go to sub + any speaker set to large. If they are all small, the plus option is not available. Technically, the output from the Pioneer is not LFE. Its subwoofer which I believe is different than LFE.

The sub does not have a switch to disable xover. I can only turn it from 60 - 180 Hz.

By lowering the crossover on your sub, you are using two circuits to do your bass management, instead of one. That will not give you the effect that you want. You only want to engage one cross over to do your bass management... the one on your receiver.


This assumes that most crossovers have a 24db slope. However many crossovers only use a 12db slope, which in some cases may not be steep enough. Velodyne often recommends using both crossovers as a option as well as many other sub manufactures in their operating manuels. If the slope you are using isn't steep enough it can introduce distortion and make your sub sound boomy, It may also increase port noise in some cases. I recommend trying both, but as I mentioned stagger the settings. If your receiver's crossover is at 80 try keeping the subs down around 100 or 120 and see how that works. Set all speakers to small and set the sub setting to YES not PlUS. (By the way I have the same receiver.) Also when you do your calibrations, do it manually rather the using the auto set up function, which isn't all that accurate. During 5.1 operation leave the EQ off.

Ian

Thanks for all the replies. All speakers are set to small, and I am set for sub only Pioneer calls it "plus" to have bass go to sub + any speaker set to large. If they are all small, the plus option is not available. Technically, the output from the Pioneer is not LFE. Its subwoofer which I believe is different than LFE.

The sub does not have a switch to disable xover. I can only turn it from 60 - 180 Hz.



Could it be that placement and level control is causing you to experience what you hear? What sound experience are you expecting? How big is your room? Where is the sub located physically? What are you expecting from a <$200 sub (per cnet) with these kind of specs (taken from their website)?

SW2 Specifications
Woofer 12"
Amplifier Power 100 Watts
Frequency Response 35Hz-160Hz
Tuning Port
Input High/Line
Output Line
Phase Switch 0° /180°
Level Control variable control
Auto Turn on/off Yes
Low Pass Slope 18dB
Subsonic Filter 18db@30Hz
Dimensions (HxWxD) 17 1/2" x 15" x 17"

It's counter-intuitive, but a boomy sub can be tamed by staggering the crossovers, as suggested, with a 20hz hole and letting the crossover slopes fill the gap. For example, the Cadence XSub sounded cleaner with the receiver crossover at 40hz and the sub @ 60hz. It also had a midbass 50hz boost on the amp that really evened things out. Each sub is different...as Ian says, try it and see. Opening up the crossover on some subs can sound boomy.

Wow, thanks again for all the info although honestly, its pretty much over my head. I'm not as much of an audiophile as many of you here. I think my receiver is all set. All speakers are small, sub is yes, xover is 80 hz. I just have to play around with the sub and see what works best.

I am happy with the sound. I got a new 50" Pioneer Plasma, the VSX-816 and used the speakers I've had for many years. Mains are DCM TF400s, and Boston Acoustics center and rears. The sub was to get the me from 5.0 to 5.1. The pleasant surprise is how the sub improved my 2ch audio. The TF400s never had great bass, and now in the larger room, they needed some help. IMO, it sounds pretty nice.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a370/Cheerleader555240/DSC_1340.jpg

Nice clean looking set up. ;) Enjoy!

Ian

I have a 8 + year old Sony AV receiver. It has 5.1 analog inputs. Which I use with my RCA HD-DVD player via analog outs. I just got a new set of fronts (Polk R50's) and a Velodyne 10" powered sub.

Here are my settings as of now:

RCA HD-DVD Player

Crossover = 80
Speaker size = Small for all spkrs.
Levels = 0 for all spkrs.


Velodyne Sub

Sub Volume = Max
Low Pass knob= Max (220 I think)

Sony AV Receiver

Center = + 3db
S.W.= 0

My questions are.....

1. Are these settings accurate?
2. The "S.W." option on my receiver, is this like a volume boost for the sub? Also is this were I add the +10db that is so called required when using analog outs?



Well with the S.W. set to 0, the bass seems to compliment the movie. But when set to 10, the bass sounds muddy at times.
I'm making sure I have all the settings correct to see if the problem is my settings are short commings of the Sub.


*CLICK ON PHOTO FOR PRODUCT INFO PAGE*
http://www.polkaudio.com/images/home/medium/black/r50.jpg (http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/products/individual/floorstanding/r50/)
*CLICK ON PHOTO FOR PRODUCT INFO PAGE*
http://www.velodyne.com/products/p_images/Prod-detail_VX10gry.jpg (http://www.velodyne.com/products/product.aspx?ID=8&sid=597l860r)

Bump. My above questions!

Maybe this article will help, if you haven't seen it!
That is a decent Sub you have, so I don't think the Sub is the problem.
I wouldn't set the Volume to max. though! You may want to experiment with the sub's Xover settings.
What receiver model is it, and how big is your room?
The article........
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147

Maybe this article will help, if you haven't seen it!
That is a decent Sub you have, so I don't think the Sub is the problem.
I wouldn't set the Volume to max. though! You may want to experiment with the sub's Xover settings.
What receiver model is it, and how big is your room?
The article........
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147

Room is 13.5' X 15' Loft/Game Room.(Pics in my HT thread!) (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10197693#post10197693) AVR model is old Sony HTIB receiver. not sure what model, will check when I get home. It's so old it doesn't even have component inputs or S-Video.

I've read this thread, still confused as hell. The bad things is I don't know what good bass is suppose to sound like. I know what I like, but that doesn't mean it's what the movie intends. Will do more research, thanks for the reply.

I'm just lost on what the S.W. setting in my receiver is used for. I'm holding out for a reasonable priced HDMI 1.3 receiver with TrueHD and DTS-MA decoding.

So according to the below info, would you suggest I do this? My output is labeled SW

Leave SUBs Low-pass filter set to max. Lower the SUBs volume to say 50-75% Then turn the receivers S.W. option up to 10db, which is as far as it goes!


LFE vs SW (subwoofer) labelling
Equipment usually gets this labelling right. A receiver will have an SW pre-out, and an SW terminal on its multichannel analogue input. Multichannel outputs on players will include an SW terminal. This accurately reflects the fact that in general the player is expected to do bass management, so will be outputting LFE+redirected bass on that channel. And the SW input to the receiver will be passed straight to the SW pre-out - it expects bass management to have already been done.

LFE interconnects can usually only be found in the digital domain. This reflects the fact that when using digital connections, the receiver is expected to perform bass management. The player passes the LFE channel unaltered, without redirecting any bass. Plain LFE information is carried in DD and DTS bitstreams over SPDIF/TOSLINK, and in PCM or DSD streams over Denon Link, i.Link or HDMI.

Early DVD-Audio and SACD players did not offer any bass management for PCM or DSD, so in effect they only offered an analogue LFE out. This meant they could not be easily integrated into a conventional system with a receiver that only had an SW input, and no bass management for multichannel input. This lead to a market for separate bass management devices, such as the Outlaw ICBM.

Current players now generally offer bass management for all formats on their multichannel outputs.

SW analogue output from players
Okay, what level should the subwoofer output be? If it were just the LFE track, then you'd expect it, as discussed above, to be 10dB lower than the other channels to fit the 10dB higher maximum LFE output.

But if the player is performing bass management, then the subwoofer output also has to contain redirected bass; this extra signal could push the signal back above its nominal limit. To prevent overloading their output, or the receiver's input, players with bass management conventionally lower the SW output by a further 5dB. (This 5dB value is specified by Dolby, see references). Sometimes this 5dB drop switches in and out depending on whether bass management is being performed (ie if any speakers are set to SMALL).

The final SW output will typically be:

SW = LFE
or:

SW = Lower5dB(LFE + Lower10dB(Redirected bass)) = Lower5dB(LFE) + Lower15dB(Redirected bass)
So, in those two cases the SW output from the player will be respectively 10dB or 15dB lower than the other channels. A receiver should offer the ability to specifically boost the SW input on its multichannel analogue interface to compensate.

So according to the below info, would you suggest I do this? My output is labeled SW

Leave SUBs Low-pass filter set to max. Lower the SUBs volume to say 50-75% Then turn the receivers S.W. option up to 10db, which is as far as it goes!
I didn't fully understand the article and I didn't spend any time trying to analyze it, because I have a fairly new Denon receiver. It seems like you may to have to turn the receiver's SW level UP as you stated....... not sure!
I don't think you want the SW's volume level set too high; I wouldn't set it above 1/2 .
Here is what your Velodyne manual says.............
*************************************************
Volume Control
This control allows you to balance the output from the subwoofer to the
main speakers/amplifier in your system. This control should be set to
achieve similar output levels from both the main speakers and subwoofer
when listening to music. A good starting point for the volume control is
2 or 3 dots from minimum.
********************************
Low-pass crossover - 50 to 200Hz
All inputs sum the left and right channels together, with the resulting signal
passing through an adjustable low-pass crossover before being amplified.
The crossover control allows you to adjust the upper limit of the subwoofer's
frequency response from 50 to 200Hz. The subwoofer's response will begin
rolling off above the frequency you set this control to. You should set the
crossover frequency to obtain a smooth and seamless transition from the
subwoofer to the main speakers in your system. If your main speakers are
smaller units with limited low frequency output, you may wish to choose
a higher frequency (such as 100-120Hz) than you would with larger
speakers which have greater low frequency output. With larger speakers,
you might start with this control set lower, such as 80Hz.
Phase adjustment - 0°/180°
This control allows you to "reverse" the phase of the subwoofer's output
signal 180° to correct for any possible mismatch and resulting cancellation
between the subwoofer and your main speakers
*******************************************
You don't want to 'kill' your sub. Save up for a new receiver then you can get a better 'calibration reading'.
John

Thanks for the input John.
I've read that info on my sub too!

Well I'll play with the settings tonight.

Yeah I know I need to upgrade my Receiver. That's next on the list.

I have a 8 + year old Sony AV receiver. It has 5.1 analog inputs. Which I use with my RCA HD-DVD player via analog outs. I just got a new set of fronts (Polk R50's) and a Velodyne 10" powered sub.

Here are my settings as of now:

RCA HD-DVD Player

Crossover = 80
Speaker size = Small for all spkrs.
Levels = 0 for all spkrs.


Velodyne Sub

Sub Volume = Max
Low Pass knob= Max (220 I think)

Sony AV Receiver

Center = + 3db
S.W.= 0

My questions are.....

1. Are these settings accurate?
2. The "S.W." option on my receiver, is this like a volume boost for the sub? Also is this were I add the +10db that is so called required when using analog outs?



Well with the S.W. set to 0, the bass seems to compliment the movie. But when set to 10, the bass sounds muddy at times.
I'm making sure I have all the settings correct to see if the problem is my settings are short commings of the Sub.


Well I've played around with the settings. I have changed the following and I'm now happy with my settings. My highs and lows sound natural now. At first one or the other would sound weird.

Changed:
* S.W. setting in my receiver to 10db
* SUB volume turned to around 60%
*In my player I set the Distance for each speaker, since my bass managment is done in the player.


Very happy with my sound now :D I used my Happy Feet HD-DVD with TrueHD selected!

Your sub gain is to high if you are using a newer VX10. If you would like to know how to fine tune your Velo VRP sub PM me and I will sent you my set up instructions on how to get the best results. You can also read my posts on these subs..

Ian

Your sub gain is to high if you are using a newer VX10. If you would like to know how to fine tune your Velo VRP sub PM me and I will sent you my set up instructions on how to get the best results. You can also read my posts on these subs..

Ian

PM sent. Thanks!!

PM sent. Thanks!!

I sent you the instructions. I also suggest you check out this link as well and then initiate my recommendations for your sub. Good luck!



http://www.robbroy.net/HT/SubwooferErrors.cfm


Ian

Let me know how it sounds.

Ian

Well last night I tried to calibrate my sound using the test tones in my RCA HD-DVD player, because my receiver doesn't have that option when using analog multichannel sound. I couldn't get the center channel right for nothing in the world. I had the center's level at -12 in the hd player and -10 in my receiver, and I still had too much sound from the center channel. That's with the test tone, O.K. Then I go to test it out playing Transformers HD, and the center channel is way too low. So I'm thinking something is wrong with the test tones from the hd player.

So I reset all the levels in the HD player to 0, but leaving my distance for each speaker. Also all the levels in my receiver to 0. I grabed my copies of The Incredibles, which has THX optimizer, to get another set of test tones. Now when playing back these ever speaker is almost dead on. I think I had to lower the SR and Center a little. But I didn't get a chance to calibrate the Sub, will get to it tonight.


Could you suggest a good set of test tones? I prefer one I could download for free or rent off Blockbuster online.

Also I my receiver goes from 0 to 64. I have to cut it up to 56 to get it at reference level (75db), is this normal? I know my receiver is old, but it will have to do for now. I usually listen to most movies at 45-50. Thanks for all your help.


It may be time for a new receiver. The other option is to get an Avia test disc. I'm not aware of any rentals or down loads. Check out this link:

http://www.amazon.com/Avia-II-Guide-Home-Theater/dp/B000X4NJNS******pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1197046985&sr=8-1

Ian
Yeah I know I'm working on it(AV receiver). Leaning towards the cost effective Onkyo 605. Yeah I'm waiting for the HD version of AVIA II.

So how do I use the spl to adjust the sub?


http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3418
Pay particular attention to step 6 and stick just to the basics in the guide I sent you. Remember to take your readings ear level from the seating position and balance your system in the direct or stereo mode. The other steps can be be quite tedious. If you use my simple setup instructions you should get good results.

Ian ;)

Well I have the Avia DVD on the way from Blockbuster online so I can use it's test tones to calibrate my speakers. Will post back once I do.

Well I have the Avia DVD on the way from Blockbuster online so I can use it's test tones to calibrate my speakers. Will post back once I do.

Got this disc in last night. Wonderful setup disc. I like the layout of the menus, all the test tones included. Far better than DVE-HD, I think.

Got the sub level calibrated to 75 db. Sounds about the same to me. I didn't have to make many changes. My reference volume is now 53, instead of 57. The center channel and right surround had to be lowered by 1db, that's about it. My sub volume knob is @ 50%/12 o'clock. S.W. level in my receiver is +6db. I had the S.W. level at +10 before running the test tone, and lowered it until I got 75db on the SPL meter. I'm very happy with this sound setup. Knowing that I'm hearing the movie how it was intended to be heard. Thanks for all the help.

Got this disc in last night. Wonderful setup disc. I like the layout of the menus, all the test tones included. Far better than DVE-HD, I think.

Got the sub level calibrated to 75 db. Sounds about the same to me. I didn't have to make many changes. My reference volume is now 53, instead of 57. The center channel and right surround had to be lowered by 1db, that's about it. My sub volume knob is @ 50%/12 o'clock. S.W. level in my receiver is +6db. I had the S.W. level at +10 before running the test tone, and lowered it until I got 75db on the SPL meter. I'm very happy with this sound setup. Knowing that I'm hearing the movie how it was intended to be heard. Thanks for all the help.

Glad things are working out. Another member PM me about his VRP 1000 and now he has his calibrated with almost the same settings as yours. http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c160/mailiang/hmmmm.gifHmmmm....These subs must be older units before the changes were made, since those settings are very close to my older sub which I have set the gain to 12:30. The new one is now set just above 10:30 to match it and the receiver's line level is now down to 0 with both subs running. Even with the older sub off, at 0 it still really cranks.

Ian

Yeah, this is my beginner sub. I just upgraded from my HTIB sub. Next sub will get much lower than 36Hz :D

Yeah, this is my beginner sub. I just upgraded from my HTIB sub. Next sub will get much lower than 36Hz :D


That's just the tuning point. It should be able to extent down into the upper 20HZ range. With both running, mine go down close to 25HZ cleanly, without any port noise or straining.

Ian

Is SPL meter necessary to calibrate the speakers? If so, where would I find a good deal on it?

Is SPL meter necessary to calibrate the speakers? If so, where would I find a good deal on it?

Most use the RS meter. Sometimes you can go to fatwallet and find coupons for them. Other meters can be found on fleabay. HTH