EDIT MAY 17, 2010:

Welcome to my now completed the Flaming Oak Cinema thread. After almost exactly three years of work, this build is now done. You can read all about my journey over the next 90 or so pages. There were many ups and many down, but in the end I'm pretty happy with what I managed to accomplish with zero prior construction experience. But without the help of this forum's many passionate and giving participants, none of this project would have been possible. So to all of you, thank you. Now enjoy the show...

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/flamingoakcinemalogo.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0339.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0343.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/DrueenTheater4a.jpg

I will be posted a summary thread and index here in the next few weeks.

Uhh, it is about time. Get to work! :D

And don't worry about the whole time table thing. Each year I swear I will be done by next football season (just 3 months away :mad: )

I look forward to your progress.

Greetings!

It's been nearly a year in the making, but it's finally time to step out of learning mode and enter the planning and building phases. After hundreds of hours of reading some fantastic threads (Chinadog, SMX, Swithey, Mark, BIGmouthinDC, ebr, Zinema, and ChinaClipper and many, many more) and trying to unravel what the pro’s know (BPape, Dennis, Terry, Ethan and others), I think I'm ready to start putting plans into motion.

But a word of warning, if you are reading this expecting a non-stop action type build thread, you may be disappointed. This thing is going to take me a while, maybe even a few years. I promise that if you do chose to tune in to my occasion posting, that I’ll try not to bore you. This is going to be a long journey for me, but hopefully it will be a fun one.

Over the next few days I going to start putting some of my ideas down on paper, start posting some photos and design ideas in order to help define the scope of the project. Like many of you, I have to work for a living, but I should be able to sneak in the occasional update during lunch, breaks and in the evenings after work. So I hope you stay tuned for the creation of the …

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/flamingoakcinemalogo.jpg

Uhh, it is about time. Get to work! :D

And don't worry about the whole time table thing. Each year I swear I will be done by next football season (just 3 months away :mad: )

I look forward to your progress.

Hehehe, thanks Gonzo. I have been bitching about not being able to start for a while now, eh? I can't tell you how good it feels to have the go ahead to start.



Now I'm sure you are wondering what the scope of the project is going to be. Well at the moment I have a bunch of ideas, but not all of them are firmly fleshed out. But what I know that I want in the end is a space in the basement (currently completely unfinished) in which my wife and I can invite a few friends over to watch movies, special TV events, football and the occasional late night cooperative Halo-fest. So I'm absolutely thinking dedicated room, CIH screen, sound isolation, double drywall/GreenGlue, dark ceilings, acoustically optimized via treatments, one hell of a subwoofer, riser, recliners and did I mention, one hell of a subwoofer.

Currently we have a completely naked basement. It holds some stuff and contains our workout gear and laundry machine, but otherwise it's pretty empty.

Here are some photos of what I have to work with.

The lobby space:
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0149.jpg

The theater back wall:
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/3fronttoback.jpg
The view looking towards the front:
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/2backtofront.jpg
The view looking into the lobby:
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0151.jpg
View of a stupid pole and beam:
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/6anoyingbeamandpole.jpg

As you can see it's not bad space. Basically I'm thinking a layout that looks something like this:
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/Cathantheater.jpg

You'll have to excuse my noob Visio skills and the spelling error. I've only just started playing with the software and I really am a crappy speller.

If you look closely at the design I'm just not sure what to do with that second pole that is in the current false wall. I'm hoping to perhaps integrate it into the screen wall. The space that is available behind the screen wall is basically limitless. I am however hoping to perhaps build a beast of subwoofer similar to what ebr has done. clickie (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9643295&&#post9643295)

Also, the measurements are concrete to concrete, so not the final interior room dimensions.

I'll be tuning in for sure!!!

But somehow, I still think it will end up a non-stop action type build thread despite your disclaimer!! :D

Looking forwards as well -

Congrats on your decision to post a thread about your slow-track theater construction. Your situation sounds identical to mine. I've been lurking for months, gathering knowledge. I just started the construction about a month ago, and admittedly it is not the most important project going on right now. (The house does not have a deck, and the wife pretty much will give me free reign in the theater if I get the deck built this summer. So my theater is now a rainy-day project! Hmmm ... I just thought of a name for the theater ...) I've resigned myself to the fact the theater will take years to build. I have been hesitating to post pictures of my work to date. Your reception here was very warm, though. Maybe I need to rethink my thread decision ...

I'll be reading your thread with great interest. Please try to stay two or three weeks ahead of me, I'll know what to do next ... :)

I gotta ask, can you move that pole?

Oh, and about time.

Welcome to the build! Looks like a cool space :-) oh and by the way I know about slow builds.... BigmouthInDC just compared my thread to waiting through an entire episode of American Idol just to see who gets kicked off!

Can't wait to see your space take shap!
-Cam

Excellent news Michael. Can't wait to see the theater take shape!

Here is a short (40 second/10MB) video for those who would like a quick tour.

Click for Video (http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/?action=view&current=MVI_0157.flv)

Thanks for the encouragement gang. I expect I may need a lot of that over the ...ehhhh... seasons to come.

dc-pilgrim - Whether I can move that pole is a fair question. I just don't know the answer. That beam runs from the pole to the back wall. And the ceiling joists rest on the beam and are cut to length. I imagine moving the pole to increase room width of the room would be cost prohibative. However moving the pole a few feet along the beam to create more depth could be a posibility if I really needed the space. The question is what would that get me? Any thoughts?

You've taken the "second" step. The first is obviously getting "approval" from the spousal unit! :D

I am honored to be include with the likes of Ruben, Chinadog, ebr et al. Wow! :cool:

Your space is indeed very similar in size to mine. (~13'x19')

You're right-it WILL take lots of time, and won't be done in two weeks. Like someone wisely told me a year ago, there will be many stumbling blocks, and many decisions, and many small barriers to your success.

And, you will overcome all of them.

I still insist that the funnest, THE funnest part of the whole project has been the absolute astonishment of friends, family and the like when they see that incredible picture, hear that beautiful sound, and then say something like "you did ALL this yourself?!?!?!?!"

Best of luck on your journey, you will NEVER really be "finished" finished, but the end result will give you lots and lots of pleasure.

I'm not quite finished myself, still gotta get those columns up, wall treatments, and the carpet, and the projection booth......

Best,
Tom
Chinaclipper

Michael, congrats on getting started!!

I like your ideas. One question though - is there a reason you're not putting the screen wall on the opposite end? You could work the pole into a wall along the riser (i.e., rear seats sit in an "alcove"). Then you could make your equipment closet in between the two poles and behind the front seats and roughly inline with the front of the rear seats. You could also put your PJ in the back wall and keep any fan noise out of the theater. Not sure if that makes sense. If you fire me your Visio file I could probably show you what I mean.

Looking forward to watching your progress!


I still insist that the funnest, THE funnest part of the whole project has been the absolute astonishment of friends, family and the like when they see that incredible picture, hear that beautiful sound, and then say something like "you did ALL this yourself?!?!?!?!" This is absolutely true!

Michael,
If you do what Brew is suggesting, you would be able to get the back row a few feet off the wall, which will make those seats sound a little better. You would probably have to shift the back row out of center, but that would likely not be that big of a deal.

You may want to consider shifting the rows to the far wall even if you keep the set up as is. Currently without walls your room is 165" wide. Subtract a minimum of 11 inches for the walls (if 2x4 construction and 2 layers of 1/2" drywall and 1" air gap---even more if staggard studs and 5/8 drywall x2). If you are doing a typical recliner seating, 3 seats is usually about 105", which leaves walkways of about 24" on either side. If you are going to have columns, they will likely encroach on the walkway even more. Just some food for thought while in the planning stages.

I like the video, did you get it right on the first take? :)

Clipper - You should absolutely make the list. Afterall, I figure if you could manage not to destroy your house, I couldn't possibly do too much harm. ;) :p :D

Strange/Gonzo - Flipping the room is something I have throught about, a lot. If there was a way I could move that pole six feet or so back along the beam it would give me the "ideal" space for what I want. HVAC, projector location would also be a plus. And I'd get a few more inches of ceiling height over the second row riser.

Anyone know how feasable it is to move a pole so that it's not sitting at the end of a ceiling beam? I would even care it it resulted in having to add a second pole somewhere further down the span.

Gonzo - The video took five or so takes. I had to keep it under 40 seconds, so that took a few tries. Plus my wife came down to poke fun at me ruining one of my better attempts. :)

Michael, check out the beginning part of my HT thread. I detailed how I moved 2 poles in my basement. It can be done, and its not too bad on the wallet. I did it for about C$1800. If you want more details, let me know.

I really think you should flip the design if you can. Don't let the support pole hold you back. There's enough expertise here to help you through it.

Craig.

I have just about the exact room measurents you have, but was unable to have a 120" screen when having a 3' 8" area behind due to the throw distance of my Panasonic projector. I was going to use this space as the equipment room as well as electronic test workbench space and have access via the laundry room next door.

Just make sure you check your projectors throw distance before starting production. My Panasonic would have reduced the size to only 84". This was unacceptable, so I scrapped the idea.

Two words - "About Time" now just keep the draining Scotland to a minium during the build - especially when working with power tools.

Cheers,
Mark

Craig - I will very well will want to chat about your pole moving experience. I think the first step is hiring an engineer to look at it to see what can be done, and then deciding if the scope of the work is something I'm comfortable doing myself or if I need to hire it out. Given that I also need to have the bathroom rough plumb put in, I may be able to combine the jobs.


Satelite - Screen size and projector selection will get worked out a bit later down the road. Once I know the room size I'm actually working with and seat locations set, I should be able to get a better idea of projector location. Besides, who knows what will be out on the market a couple of years from now. But point definately taken. Thanks!

Mark - "About Time" No kinding, right? :o Can't promise that my Scotch vise will taper off much though. Everytime I think I've put a dent in the supply, those silly folks on Islay make more. ;)

From what I see in the photos, the lally column supports a steel beam from its end. I don't see why you wouldn't be able to move it 30" down the beam, so the beam cantilevers into the theater room. Might need a larger column. And a footing for it below the frost line. And a structural engineer.

Flipping the room, though, sounds like an easier plan.

Moving that pole really is what I'd like to do. It just makes sense. I'll draw up a rough plan of a flipped design and post it ater this week

Anyone know what hiring a structural engineer costs? Any referrals for the NoVA area?

Michael, the engineer cost me $800. That was for "sealed" drawings that were good enough for our municipality to issue a building permit for. From my experience, there are a bunch of these structural engineers who do this stuff all the time. Do you have the original blueprints of your house? That will make their job a whole lot easier and may save you some money.

Craig.

dc-pilgrim - Whether I can move that pole is a fair question. I just don't know the answer. . . . However moving the pole a few feet along the beam to create more depth could be a posibility if I really needed the space. The question is what would that get me? Any thoughts?

Hope you weren't expecting me to answer the tough questions. ;) - I was just thinking 3'8" is a lot of space behind the screen. I can see maybe 30" or so depending on treatments and speakers (and comb filtering). I have 18" allocated to mine, but my room is only 17' long.

Given NOVA, (I used to live there) an engineer is probably double what the midwest guys would pay.

Michael,
great to have a new theater build thread going - especially that you mentioned my little thread together with these outstanding work of some very talented guys! :cool:

I will follow your build, that's for sure - since we have at least 3 things in common:
1. you like dogs
2. you are a fellow scuba diver (or is it surfing?)
3. it seems you like my HT build :D

And don't forget - keep pictures coming....

I saw those suits hanging from the ceiling. I have the same Henderson Hyperstretch.

Hope you weren't expecting me to answer the tough questions. ;) - I was just thinking 3'8" is a lot of space behind the screen. I can see maybe 30" or so depending on treatments and speakers (and comb filtering). I have 18" allocated to mine, but my room is only 17' long.


If I were to keep the design as posted, the wall behind the screen wall is completely variable. I just through down a random depth. I will be building a massive sub (think 100+ sq foot enclosure) behind the screen so will need a bit more space than the typical screen wall.

I saw those suits hanging from the ceiling. I have the same Henderson Hyperstretch.
Yep. We're avid divers. I was looking to get into the more technical side of diving, but this project is going to take a chunk out of my play money. By the end of the summer I will hopefully be practicing with doubles, although only within rec diving specs.

Zinema - what I like most of your build is the use of light woods. As we renovate parts of the house I've been bringing more and more maple in for things like kitchen and bath cabinets. I'm envision using maple for the theater trim thereby bringing in some of the things that you did with a few of ebr's ideas as well. That keeps the house's overall design and use of materials pretty consistant. I always hate homes where it feels that each room was frankensteined together. We keep a pretty consistant palet throughout and that includes the wood.

Michael, check out the beginning part of my HT thread. I detailed how I moved 2 poles in my basement. It can be done, and its not too bad on the wallet.

I did it for about C$1800.
Craig.

Hey Craig, what's that in REAL money?????
hehehehe just kidding!

Chinaclipper

Michael,
I did the post removal thing. It cost about $500-600 for the engineer and about $500 labor and materials. So I bet you would be in the $1000-2500 range in NoVA.

Thanks. I just hate the premium costs we have to pay in this area. Just another reason to be self-sufficient and go the DIY route. I have some down time later today, so plan on calling a few local engineer firms.

I absolutely love my realtor. I sent her a note asking for structural engineer referrals, and within minutes she got me a list. Two calls later and ten minutes later I found someone to do the work. Looks it will run me around $300.

I just have one question. Who's Joice? Apparently she's 7'4" :eek:

Hey Craig, what's that in REAL money?????
hehehehe just kidding!

ChinaclipperDon't look now, but the CAD$ just hit USD$0.92 ;). It hasn't been that high since disco was cool. Time to start buying some gear!

I just have one question. Who's Joice? Apparently she's 7'4" :eek:

I warned you about that typo. :) I'm sure there will be a few more. ;)

Can anyone ballpark me how deep of a room I would need to do two rows and a space for a bar/stool thing for overflow?

Jason's (Jikkjack) room will have 2 rows and a bar.....his is 28' long by 12' wide.

Cheers,
Mark

Thanks Mark. I poked Jason about his room and he's measuring a few things for me.

Yep. Check your PM Cathan. Let me know if you have any other questions. Happy to help.

Thanks for the info Jason. That will give me some more data points for when the engineer comes.

Good luck on the build. It may not take that long...if you get into it, you may find yourself making time to work on it.

Good luck on the build. It may not take that long...if you get into it, you may find yourself making time to work on it.
He has a bunch of us watching now, so we'll be pushing him hard ;)

hehehe. It's not going to be for lack of effort my friends. It's all about the dollar. The only major WFA I've needed to address is to agree that this entire build be done with cash - no credit. So we set a decent budget of money flowing into a special account. What's in the account is what I can spend. When the project is done that flow gets rediverted.

With projects like this, most of the big items seem to be either front or back loaded. Front include (for me) the engineering cost, hiring of an designer, moving poles, having a window well put it, and putting in the rough-in for the bath. All of these will be done by someone other than me (I think). The middle of the project (framing, drywall, electrical, treatments) I can easily DIY. The tailend gets more expensive again with the purchase of carpet, chairs and AV equipment. So right now its going to start slow else I get in trouble and this whole project, or rather I, get deep-sixed.

Maybe if you drain Scotland a little slower, you can build a little faster ;)

I hear you on the cost staging. I did my entire basement at the same time pretty much as you described. The only thing different is I hired out my drywall and electrical. Glad I did or I'd still be working on it. And yes, the tail-end is expensive. Much more than I thought anyway.

hehehe. It's not going to be for lack of effort my friends. It's all about the dollar. The only major WAF I've needed to address is to agree that this entire build be done with cash - no credit. . With projects like this, most of the big items seem to be either front or back loaded. Front include (for me) the engineering cost, hiring of an designer, moving poles, having a window well put it, and putting in the rough-in for the bath. All of these will be done by someone other than me (I think). The middle of the project (framing, drywall, electrical, treatments) I can easily DIY.

Wow! More and more I think we are alike, you and I. my wife says exactly the same thing-no credit, cash only!

It does slow things down a bit, but at least, ITS PAID FOR!!!

...and ya gotta love that!

Best,
Tom
Chinaclipper

Maybe if you drain Scotland a little slower, you can build a little faster ;)


I mostly drain Scotland in the fall and winter months. During the summer I'm involved with the knocking down prickly plants down in Mexico. So a bit cheaper, but not by much. ;)

It does slow things down a bit, but at least, ITS PAID FOR!!!


But the rest of the house it's in probably won't be paid for. Maybe if he moves, he could bring the pole with him? :rolleyes:

Well made the first real purchase for the theater today. I placed an order for 12 linear feet SMX material. That should give me enough to work with for a ten foot wide 2.35 screen. I can't image going bigger in a room 13 foot wide room. My guess is that in the end the screen will actually be smaller than 10', but better safe than sorry.

I may not get to use the stuff for another couple of years, but at least I know I have it. :)

Many thanks to Rubin for coming through for all the DIYers would got caught off-guard with his business model switch.

LAYOUT VERSION 2:

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/Cathantheaterwithbasementversion-1.jpg

Well I updated the room layout based on hopefully being able to move the pole around 6 feet from the end. The diagram also gives a rough layout of what we are going to do with the rest of the basement.

I measure out the space and it looks like I'll have plenty of space under the stairs to build in a nook for a frig and still have a decent size equipment closet. I still need to figure out if I'm going to do a sliding rack, or if I should add a door. Ideally I want my equipment outside of the theater space as I plan on using some pro-amp that I'm sure will give off noise and heat.

Lot's of decision, but still plenty on time.

I should also mention that I've engaged Bryan (bpape) as my official advisor for all things big and small.

Any know of any good web-based guides for putting in a bath rough-in? Or for that matter could recommend a book?

Michael,

Looking good! I really like the new design. Just out of curiosity, why did you decide to do 3 seats in the front? Looks like you could get 4 in there pretty easily. Are you planning to put your PJ in the back wall? Also, I would think hard about having your equipment in the back wall. Not because you want it in the room necessarily, but because access from the back is very, very nice to have. You could always put in a soundproof door if need be.

I don't think the Visio chair images are to scale, but honestly we really only need six seats for 95% of the things we would host. During the occasional sporting event (PPV, Superbowl, etc.) we may have up to nine people or so - at least that's what we've been averaging the last few UFC and boxing PPVs. I suspect that number could grow as the theater makes coming over more of a draw.

Once the walls are built, I think the final room width with be close to 12.5'. Based on what I've read that is a bit tight to fit 4 seats. Besides, we can always order another seat if needed.

The equipment closet just seems like the ideal spot if I want to keep the gear out of the theater and still have easy access to it. I'm picturing the rack facing out into the entrance hallway across from the half-bath. I could either put the access door going into the theater and hide it, or just not but a wall between the equipment and the fridge and just slide out the fridge to get to the back of the rack.

What the drawing doesn't show is that the frig and equipment closet makes use of other dead space below the stairs. You can see it in the photos (I think) on the previous page. If not, I'll take a photo and post. Also, the water heater and HVAC aren't to scale, but the bath and hall dimensions maximize space without requiring anything to be moved.

As for projector mount, ideally I would like to have it behind the back wall, but because it may be a couple of years before I actually buy a projector, no final decision has been made. A lot will depend on what projectors are on the market then, throw distance, CIH compatibility, etc. Either way, I plan on allowing for some flexibility.

So I got to order some new toys this weekend. Our health insurance plan has a "healthy living - preventative care" program where you get points that can be used to buy stuff. So I ordered one of these ...
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51u-k5031EL._AA280_.jpg
Bosch Saw (http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-4000-09-Worksite-10-Inch-Benchtop/dp/B00067IX1A******pd_bbs_sr_2/002-1299381-6007244?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1180981967&sr=8-2)
and one of these...

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RJ491HTEL._AA280_.jpg
Click for Details (http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-EY6432GQKW-15-6-Volt-2-Inch-Cordless/dp/B00009KDGX******pd_bbs_sr_1/002-1299381-6007244?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1180982097&sr=1-1)

Now I just need to wait 6-8 weeks for delivery... :(

Ironic that you're using healthcare points to buy tools to injure yourself with. Hope you have better luck than some of these guys! :D

Lindahl - Yeah. I thought so too. Let's hope that the tools don't result in any injuries.

Nice saw. Been trying to justify purchasing that for a while. Wish I had those kind of points.

Okay. Now I need some help. Bpape and I have been going back and forth about if I can make the third row bar stool thing work in my room given it's length and given the door placement. I need to really settle on what theater chairs I will be using to get the room layout right.

So what do you all think? I can take "She who wants to give input on such things as chairs" to look at chairs this weekend, but what make/models should we definately try to find? Any NoVA stores I should check out that have a wide selection?

Find a Berkline showroom and sit in a couple different chairs of differing widths and back heights - remember that high backs are a no-no for surround. Once you get a feel for how much arm and how much seat width you want, it's easy to pick from their catalog as many are very similar - just different looks.

Bryan

Last time I was at "The Big Screen Store" near the Dulles Town center mall they had two different models of Berklines on the floor along with a couple of other brands.

Two things to keep in mind. When my wife sat in the Berkline 099s with high backs, the game was over. No matter how they would effect my surround sound they were "THE" chair.

Second, Ask them how much a chair with grade 4 leather (soft) and electric recline will cost. Then leave the store laughing and get it for less that 1/2 from a couple of the dealers talked about here. They also have samples of the various leathers and fabrics that Berkline uses.

Thanks Jeff. I think there is one by the Expo Design Center near Lee Hwy/Rt50.

Happen to know if Myer Emco carries chairs? Also, I seem to recall that Coasters is another brand discussed on the boards. I wonder if I can find some for comparison.

Last time I was there the Myer Emco in Sterling did not carry chairs. Not sure if this is the same in other stores.

The Big Screen Store over by the Dulles Mall had a big range of different brands of HT chairs. Be sure to try out manual vs. power recline.

Cheers,
Mark

We went with the 45004's after a lot of messing around and looking at chairs - in fact, I wasn't even going to go with Berkline originally. But after we sat in a few and looked around we thought the 45004's were the best combination of size, looks, comfort and price. Comfort in particular is outstanding - particularly if you're over 6'0"

Thanks guys.

Mark - check out the projector/powercord/ups in equip closet discussion in Craig's ReedZone Theater thread. You may remember the thread that I'm trying to find.

So my structural engineer is coming out tomorrow morning to take a look at what can be done with this beam. The picture was taken from what would be outside of the back of the room.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0164-1.jpg

My original thought was to just move the column from the end of beam to some point around 5-6' further in. The beam would then be enclosed in a soffit, but the soffit would have to be pretty wide. My concern is that the wide soffit may created problems once I put in a riser in the back of the room.

So then I started thinking what if I move the column as planned and then cut the beam off at the column. To support that section of the house I would then install that 6' beam so that it is closer in line with the other beam (basically the other side of the HVAC trunk). Now that would mean having to install three columns total (relocated, and perhaps I would need to replace the ceiling joists that are just slightly longer. I would also need to reroute that main HVAC trunk line which could be a pain.

Anyway, before I go much further with the engineer who I'm paying by the hour, I figured I'd float the idea by here. Good plan? Bad plan? Waste of money? Also, no clue what this would run me if I farmed some of it out. Bracing a house from collapsing on me has me a bit nervous.

I'm having trouble picturing which one you want to move. Just to confirm, its the one on the left in the shot above, correct?

Yes, the beam is on the left and the shiny silver thing is duct work.

I'm a little confused too. Is it the main beam you see in the picture or the beam/pole at the rear of the picture. From pictures in post #3 I'm thinking its the one at the rear.

Cheers,
Mark

I'm a little confused too. Is it the main beam you see in the picture or the beam/pole at the rear of the picture. From pictures in post #3 I'm thinking its the one at the rear.

Cheers,
MarkThat's what I thought too, but looking at the first floorplan, I think it might be the one on the left - I think as you face the stairs the theater would be to the left, which means that pole would be in the theater area. Michael?

Yes, the beam is on the left and the shiny silver thing is duct work.Gee thanks. Very helpful.

[not an engineer] Assuming it is the beam on the left, and the support pole is at the very end of the beam, I see no reason why you can't move that post back a few feet. In fact, I would think that would make it stronger since the respective spans are shorter. [/not an engineer]

Sorry for the confusion. The false wall makes it a bit confusing. If you can imagine a room, the photo is taken from the perspective of the right rear corner of the room looking to the front on the room. The right pole that you see will be in the right-hand wall eventually.

The pole I need to move is left one that is partially hidden behind the steel shelving. The beam that I want to cut short is connected to that left pole.

If it's still confusing let me know and I'll try to draw a picture.

Maybe if you can add the beams to the floorplan as they are now and then show versions of both options you looking at.

Cheers,
Mark

Ok, re-read what you posted and it makes sense now. To be honest, I think that's going to be more trouble and $$ than its worth. If it were me, I'd move the post back as you originally planned. Now that said, I think your other plan is do-able. What you would probably need to do though is cut back the "mini" beam that is there now a little so you could rest the end of the new beam on the same support pole. Then weld the two beams together (there would need to be a span of steel under the support pole obviously. Then you need a column at the other end of the new beam. If you do that first, then you can cut back the other beam after that and put the new support pole in. So I wouldn't worry about supporting the house as long as you stage things correctly. But, again, I think its a lot of work to make a soffit thinner and your theater ceiling is going to be clear in either case. There are better places to spend the $$ IMO

EDIT: I see now that your ceiling will have soffit in the theater. How far back does the beam have to be cut to take it out of the theater and put the new support pole in the back wall of the theater room?

I used my uber artist skills. Perhaps this will help you picture it better.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/Cathantheaterwithbasementversion-2.jpg

The big fat circle is where I would move the pole to.

EDIT: I see now that your ceiling will have soffit in the theater. How far back does the beam have to be cut to take it out of the theater and put the new support pole in the back wall of the theater room?

The visio plan I drew has the pole moving about 6 ft. That was purely a guess. The engineer will need to tell me how far back I can move it.

What Bpape tells me that for every foot I move the wall back, I'll get about another 4 inches to provide for a third bar-rail row. By moving the pole 6 feet i will have around 40" behind the second row of seats. That's pretty tight of the stool users. While I don't expect to host many events where the stools would be used, it would be nice to know what it would take to make this configuration work during this planning/design period. If I can't get it to work, I may just scrap the idea.

As for the soffit. The Visio diagram is to scale as to pole locations and how deep that soffit would run into the room. If I made one the same depth on the opposite wall, I would have around 40% of the back ceiling soffited. :(

Is this how the beams run?

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k242/BritInVA/HT/Cathan.jpg

If yes I doubt that you can move to pole back that far an leave the end unsupported. Cutting off this excess and then extending the other beam does not look like an option either as the joists don't look like they are long enough to reach that beam (but difficult to tell from picture).

Cheers,
Mark

The visio plan I drew has the pole moving about 6 ft. That was purely a guess. The engineer will need to tell me how far back I can move it.

What Bpape tells me that for every foot I move the wall back, I'll get about another 4 inches to provide for a third bar-rail row. By moving the pole 6 feet i will have around 40" behind the second row of seats. That's pretty tight of the stool users. While I don't expect to host many events where the stools would be used, it would be nice to know what it would take to make this configuration work during this planning/design period. If I can't get it to work, I may just scrap the idea.

As for the soffit. The Visio diagram is to scale as to pole locations and how deep that soffit would run into the room. If I made one the same depth on the opposite wall, I would have around 40% of the back ceiling soffited. :(Gotcha. In that case I can understand wanting to move it. Can you also move the ductwork? In other words, can you make the ceiling completely clear?

Is this how the beams run?



If yes I doubt that you can move to pole back that far an leave the end unsupported. Cutting off this excess and then extending the other beam does not look like an option either as the joists don't look like they are long enough to reach that beam (but difficult to tell from picture).

Cheers,
Mark

That's exactly it. I think I would need to replace 5 joists if I wanted to cut the beam and move it. Besides one cable that would be moved the moment I remove the current false wall, there are no obstructions keeping me from adding new joists. Right now the joists run up to the right edge of the duct work. Even moving the beam this far would help keep the soffit to a reasonable size. Of course the HVAC would need to be redone, but I think it will need to be done regardless.

Gotcha. In that case I can understand wanting to move it. Can you also move the ductwork? In other words, can you make the ceiling completely clear?

Not entirely. That main duct eventually runs into the theater room two feed to registers on the main floor. But I would be replacing the metal duct with the soft tube kind. On the opposite wall is where I would run the room's HVAC feed. I think...

That's exactly it. I think I would need to replace 5 joists if I wanted to cut the beam and move it. Besides one cable that would be moved the moment I remove the current false wall, there are no obstructions keeping me from adding new joists. Right now the joists run up to the right edge of the duct work. Even moving the beam this far would help keep the soffit to a reasonable size. Of course the HVAC would need to be redone, but I think it will need to be done regardless.

I think the route your thinking is the best option.

Are you thinking of sistering with additional or completly replacing the existing joists? Do you have easy access (i.e. carpet that can be pulled back) above this area to secure the flooring?

I'm not sure you can replace the main trunk line with flexi. Maybe divert it so its outside the HT area. But maybe others with HVAC qualifications can chip in.

Cheers,
Mark

Sistering would seem to be easier. And no easy access from above. It's the kitchen right above and although we want to redo the kitchen floor, that project wasn't going to be done until a couple more years. I guess I could always redo the kitchen floor first if I had to...but I think my wife may rebel if I told her I had to do the kitchen floor only because it would effect the threater room.

The part of the HVAC line in the photo that I would want to replace is only what's running into the room. So from the "T" on down.

Yeah agree sistering would be easier - I would think bolting them together will work. But thats why your hiring an engineer.

On the HVAC I still think you will need that main trunk to supply above and the HT. Looks like its no more than 18" wide so could be within a soffit.

Cheers,
Mark

Agreed on the sistering. The only thing I would be concerned about though is why that beam is there in the first place. If the loads from above are being carried directly on the beam it may not be as simple as just moving it back. The new joists would then have to carry the dead weight that the beam was carrying before as well as the live loads on the floor above. Right now the joists are just carrying the live loads (I'm guessing). You might be able to beef up the joists enough but it may not be as simple as just sistering the joists to make the span.

It looks as if you would be alright. It seems as if you are NOT increasing the span that the beam will support. I wouldn't think you would need a stronger beam to support the weight. However, the portion of the beam that is "unsupported", after the pole, maybe subject to torsional stresses. 10 Bucks you could move the pole and just have a guy come and weld some reinforcement along the beam. Maybey box it out. Go for it.

So the visit from the engineer was productive. It looks like I can sister the joists using only around 3' long lumber and with very little problem be able to extend the right side beam (from the photo) and cut the left beam. The extended beam would just need to be connected with a steel plate to the existing beam and run just short of the HVAC "T" connection that you can see in the photo. Almost none of the electrical, plumbing or gas lines would need to be relocated or moved either.

That would give me a room that would look something like this:

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/Cathantheaterversion4-2.jpg

I should have a pretty clean work area that will be 26' (L) x 12' (W) x7'2" (H).

Once I get the final plans from the engineer I'll start bidding out the work. Assuming I install the cement footers, install the sistered ceiling joists and gather the beam materials, I can't imagine it will run me too much to pay for some help installing the beam extension and columns and cutting out the old beam section.

Next step is to go look at some chairs with the wife. If I could just drag her away from studying, we may be able to do it this evening.

Good result! So when are you 'breaking ground'?

Not sure yet. Likely in a couple of weeks. It may make sense for me to put in the egress window well before starting. That way I can get things into the basement without having to go up and down stairs. The engineer mentioned something about the footers needing 3,500 lbs of concrete. :eek:

I should also bring in an HVAC guy to look to see if my current system can handle the addition.

All of these are pretty big ticket projects (a few thousand each) so will absorb a few months of my theater cash flow. That being said, I'm sure I'll end up buying some studs the moment the permits have been pulled just so that I can swing a hammer.

That being said, I'm sure I'll end up buying some studs the moment the permits have been pulled just so that I can swing a hammer.

You do mean pull the trigger on your nailgun, right? :)

-drin

Or if I end up using metal studs a cordless screwdriver. ;)

Not sure yet. Likely in a couple of weeks. It may make sense for me to put in the egress window well before starting. That way I can get things into the basement without having to go up and down stairs. The engineer mentioned something about the footers needing 3,500 lbs of concrete. :eek:The egress window is an excellent idea. A buddy and I carried the concrete for 2 40"Wx40"Lx24"D footings in the front door and down the stairs using 5 gal buckets. Wife was not happy. 3,500 lbs of concrete doesn't sound too far off. It was easily the worst job in the entire build for me. I didn't count how many trips we had to make to fill those suckers up, but I did require a heavy dose of Advil the next day. My buddy said it took him an hour to get out of bed the next day. LOL.

I should also bring in an HVAC guy to look to see if my current system can handle the addition. Good idea. Would you consider putting in a separate system for the HT if its not up to the task?

Sounds like going to be a fair size job with those footers but a leat you will get a nice unristricted space.

Cheers,
Mark

Craig - If our current HVAC can't handle the basement, then I think we'd put in a larger unit that could before we would get a seperate unit. Either way, my plan is to try to have the theater HVAC run in such a way that if we decide to put it on it's own unit, that could be done in the future. I'll tie everything in at a location in the storage area for easy access and upgradeability. It may not be ideal, but seems like a decent compromise on keeping costs down. Of course once I talk to the HVAC guy(s), I may completely change my mind again.

As for the concrete, I've never mixed it before. Any reason why one couldn't do that in the basement? That way I would only need to haul the dry bags and not the wet stuff.

As for the concrete, I've never mixed it before. Any reason why one couldn't do that in the basement? That way I would only need to haul the dry bags and not the wet stuff.

Dust, dust and more dust. I ended up blowing out two oxygen sensors on my hot water tank from mixing concrete in the basement, and that was only 750 pounds of the stuff. The dust accreted on the sensors and the heater immediately shut down.

I'd say go ahead and do it, but pour the bag into your mixing tray VERY slowly and from not more than about 3 inches away. That'll help keep the dust down. If your furnace and hot water tank are anywhere near the area, make sure they're off and try to seal your concrete work area with builder's plastic to keep the dust in a confined area.


-drin

As for the concrete, I've never mixed it before. Any reason why one couldn't do that in the basement? That way I would only need to haul the dry bags and not the wet stuff.I would strongly recommend you hire a truck and get the concrete delivered. A few reasons:

1. You probably want "high/early" concrete - the high MPA early setup type
2. You're probably talking over cubic meter of concrete and that will be a massive PITA to mix up yourself. And you have to do it right given the application
3. Its not very expensive - IIRC I paid $250 to have the truck bring it out

I had to take mine into the basement myself. But if you have an egress window you might be able to get it pumped in for some extra $$

3. Its not very expensive - IIRC I paid $250 to have the truck bring it out. I had to take mine into the basement myself. But if you have an egress window you might be able to get it pumped in for some extra $$

Still, if money's an issue or you want the learning experience, an 80-pound bag of concrete at HD is $4, and they'll take back the bags you don't use. I had a day to spare hauling it into the basement, mixing, pouring, tamping, screeding it and cleaning up afterwards. It was worth my time just to learn how to do it right so that I know how in case of future need.

-drin

Got the plan drawing back from my engineer. First cost overrun - I was quoted that it would take around 3 hours of work, ended up with a bit over 7. We settled on a flat $550.

Anyway, here are some images of the plans.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/beamremovalplan.jpg
This one shows the removal of the current beam and the addition of the new replacement beam.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/sisteringbeamplan.jpg
Here we have the new beam extension. Nothing a little Elmer's glue and spit wouldn't hold togther.


http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/sisteringjoist.jpg
Here are how the joists with be sistered so that I don't need to replace the current ones.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/lallycolumnplan.jpg
Any finally how the columns will have to be installed. Because the two new columns are so close together, the engineer want one large footing. It will be 4'8" long x 2' wide x 12" deep. Once the column is installed I have to add more gravel and then repour the slab. That's a heck of a lot of concrete!! But also likely where I can save money if I am willing to do it myself.

Looking online it seems I can rent a small concrete mixer for around $20 per day. Assuming I can get it into the basement, that should make the mixing part of the job pretty easy. I'll just need to rent it twice.

The metal work and column and beam installation I will likely farm out. Hopefully I'll find some help because it's a pretty small job.

Anyway, please let me know if you see anything on the plans that could be inproved. This is still all in draft form with the engineer.

In reviewing the plans a little further I'm going to make one one change. I want the foot depth calculated so that it will be level with the slab. No point in digging another 8" and having to pour a second round of concrete once the lally column is installed.

Once I get the final copies, I plan on pulling permits next week. I guess I should plan to pulling permits for the rest of the project at the same time.

Because of the scale of the whole project, I may just plan this thing in two stages. The first stage would be to build just the theater and foyer hall and wet bar area. At some later point I pull permits to build the bath and finish the exercise room. That means for now the only work that needs to happen on the other side of the basement is to put in the egress window well.

And speaking of window well egress, although I'm getting a few bids, the more research I do, the more inclined I am to just put it in myself. I found a really straight forward guide in one of my handyman magazines. Basically it's 90% grunt work (digging and back filling). Seems like a reasonable place to invest some sweat equity.

Well when I got home from work on Friday I had a nice little package waiting for me on the driveway. :D The Bosch table saw was delivered. It was shipped just in it's own box, which looked like it took a beating. I'm hoping everything is okay inside. I was busy hosting a friend over the weekend, so won't get to putting it together until later this week.

The only thing I was hoping to get done this weekend was prepping the SMX material I had ordered for the long storage. Based on reading some threads on Rubin's site, I purchase a ten foot long 3" pvc pipe to wrap the material around. So I bought the tube from HD and washed it before enlisted the wife's help to unbox the smx materials. Turns out the smx material was already neatly wrapped around a cardboard tube and covered in shrinkwrap. Not a wrinkle was visable, so no need to reroll it around the pvc pipe. I guess the earlier shipments weren't sent out this way. So back to HD I go to return the pvc pipe. I've got to thank Rubin for this attention to detail.

I also got the final column relocation plans from the engineer. Now I just need to pull the permits. I think I may take off later this week to head down the the Fairfax County government center and pull the plans for everything. I'll need to read-up to see what is needed. Any tips before I go?

Okay, so I'm taking a day off tomorrow to pull the permits. I'm not entirely sure what sort of detail I need with my plans. Here's the basic plan I'm bringing with me.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/CathanHTpermitpost.jpg

I assume that for electrical I'll need something seperate. How specific do I need to get with lighting, switch and outlet locations?

I assume that for electrical I'll need something seperate. How specific do I need to get with lighting, switch and outlet locations?

I don't know what your municipality will require, but mine didn't require separate electrical. They did require that I show the approximate location of any ceiling can lights on the diagram you showed, as well as a separate side view of the proposed space showing the wall height and fireblock.

-drin

Michael,

Have you seen this info for Fairfax?

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dpwes/publications/basements/

Looks like as you are moving columns and installing window you can't use the simple method - a full set of plans is required.

Cheers,
Mark

Usually the post down from a beam lands below the floor. When you pour the floor, the post is locked into place laterally. I don't know why the engineer has it so far below the slab, but you could certainly ask.

Submitting plans is sometime a bit of a guess. Some require full sets, some a sketch.. who knows.

If any of your mechanical is existing, I would note that on the plans (eg "Existing mechanical to remain"). Otherwise they might think you are putting in a new hot water heater and hvac system.

Also, I would label the electric subpanel as "new xx space subpanel". I have never seen a 110v subpanel (first, because we have 120v power, and second they are 240v). Something like that could send up a flag.

I suspect they will require plumbing and electrical plans if you are adding fixtures. Vent and waste sizes, recepticles as required above countertops, GFCI in bathroom etc.

If your window is a required egress window, the window well has minimum dimensions as well.

Then again, they might just accept it and point out any problems during construction.

Good luck,
Tim

Mark - Yeah. I've read the documents a few times. They aren't particularly clear when it comes to simple versus the other route. I understand that simple won't work, but as for what's involved with the non-simple route I'm not entirely sure. Best I can tell is that I'm going to be shuffled from one department to the other. I do have the plans that the engineer created for the column/beam shifting part of the the project. For the window well I plan on bringing specs of the window well I plan to install. I'll create a seperate map of the lighting and outlet locations including GFI outlets. No clue how to document a wetbar. It's a sink for crying out loud and there is exisiting plumbing nearby to tap into.

Mr. Tim - I had the engineer change the plan on how the lally columns are attached to the floor. It's at slab level now so much easier to build and install. The sub-panel text has a typo. It should be 240v. Thanks for catching that.

Did I mention I hate this part of the process?

edit: Here's version 2.1 with the changes.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/CathanHTpermitpost3.jpg

I don't know what your municipality will require, but mine didn't require separate electrical. They did require that I show the approximate location of any ceiling can lights on the diagram you showed, as well as a separate side view of the proposed space showing the wall height and fireblock.

-drin
drin, obviously every muni is different, but I was told NOT to call my project a "home theater". I was told to call it a "rec room". I guess it had something to do with the law/regs....
Go figure....

Best,

Chinaclipper

Okay. I'll change the name to rec room. Version 2.1 on it's way...

hehe yeah the permitting process can be a pita, depending on where you are, how good a day the clerk is having, what phase the moon is in.. :D

You can't go wrong with pointing out the details that you know on the plan. If you demonstrate knowledge of the codes you are usually given some leeway around here.

I know the sink is just a sink, but some people don't even know that it has to be vented. Most codes allow studor vents now, so it's not as big a deal. I personally dislike them, but they have their place. You could put "connect wet sink to existing 3" stack in wall" or whatever your situation is.

Also, if you build a room around any fuel-fired appliances, you will have to provide fresh air intakes. If your water heater is electric and the hvac doesn'tuse oil/gas, you don't need them.

Good luck,
Tim

Version 2.2 of the construction plan and version 1.0 of the electrical:
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/CathanHTpermitpost4.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/CathanHTpermitelectrical.jpg
And again, many, many thanks for the feedback. Having the little things caught now is way helpful.

edit: I should also mention that the electrical will change a bit. I don't have the rope or riser lights on the plan, nor the 20 amp outlets noted that will go into the closet.

edit x2: I fixed the name of the "rec room" in the electrical diagram. Not gonna bother updating the image file.

Rec room is probably a better description for the tax assessor.

Any thought to adding a shower to that powder room?

Any thought to adding a shower to that powder room?

Yes, we've gone back and forth on the issue. What you can't see on the plan is that the washer and dryer will be on the wall behind the powder room. If I push that wall back it really would eat into the space you need to access the back part of the storage room. And if we bump out the wall in the "excercise room" it will get pretty narrow.

In the end we figured that we'll have two full baths and 2 half baths in a house with just two people. We won't use the basement shower and our two guest rooms upstairs have a full bath of their own.

Also, it mean less hassle for me not having to build one and therefore the theater will get done sooner. ;)

Rec. room is a much easier description to get past the inspectors than home theater. I put home theater on my initial plans and they told me to change it before submitting.

Also as mentioned above, if your hot water/furnace are gas fired you'll have to provide adequate ventilation. They'll probably ask you to calculate the total volume of air required to provide full combustion for those appliances and put the number on the plans, along with the volume of air in the room surrounding the appliances. I suspect you'll find that the air volume in the furnace room (once the theater walls are up and finished) won't be enough to provide combustion, which means you'll either have to provide outside ventilation for the units or make enough volume available in the basement.

I ended up changing the furnace room door and the door at the top of the basement stairs to fully louvered doors. The air is now pulled in from upstairs into the furnace room. It was MUCH cheaper than coring through the concrete sill to install an outside duct.

-drin

Drin - funny you should mention it, I was literally just calculating air volume based on something Tim sent me. I have roughly 1,400 cublic feet of space in the storage area. That would allow for 28,000 BTUs (50 cubic feet per 1,000 BTU) for both my WH and furnace. I'm at work so can't check what they actually are rated for so no clue if it's enough.

Drin - funny you should mention it, I was literally just calculating air volume based on something Tim sent me. I have roughly 1,400 cublic feet of space in the storage area. That would allow for 28,000 BTUs (50 cubic feet per 1,000 BTU) for both my WH and furnace. I'm at work so can't check what they actually are rated for so no clue if it's enough.

That's the standard required air volume that I usually see used. 28,000 BTU sounds low for a furnace and hot water heater, however. That will of course depend on what part of the country you're in.

-drin

Either way, I'll add the info to the plans and will ask if louve doors are allowed. If not, I'll draw in two vents going into the excercise room. I think it's 1,000 BTU per square inch of vent opening.

Michael,

My Furnice is 100,000 BTU which seems pretty standard for most 4/5 bed houses in this area. According to Combustion Air Calculator (http://www.houseofcraig.net/combustion_air_calc.html) it needs 6667 cu ft of Indoor Volume.

This is what I failed on. My unfinished space & Rec Room only accounted for ~5,200 cu ft so I had to add more vents to the stairwell to 1st floor which was a PITA as now get more furnice noise on 1st floor. :mad:

Good Luck
Mark

Seems my water heater is 40k BTU, but I can't find anything on the furnace (Trance XE90). TRane's website turns up nothing and Googleling it seems to give me a range 40k-100k.

If I assume the whole think is around 100k, no way in heck I have enough airflow. I'd be surprise in my unfinished basement did. Looks like I'll have to figure out a venting system.

My furnice has a label under the main panel that has input BTU 100,000 and Output BTU 80,000 (does not seem too efficient).

I found this site (http://www.customengineering.info/products/esxe90.html) that has specifications for the Trane XE90 - but looks like there are numerous models.

Cheers,
Mark

If I assume the whole think is around 100k, no way in heck I have enough airflow. I'd be surprise in my unfinished basement did. Looks like I'll have to figure out a venting system.

That was my finding as well in my basement. I'm surprised we weren't gassed in our sleep from incomplete combustion gases! :)

The two options that were available to me were:

1) replace the doors to the main floor with fully louvered ones to allow airflow into the furnace room.
2) drill through the foundation sill to install a vent from the outside.

We had already spent $3K moving the furnace and hot water heater to a basement corner and installing a power vent for exhaust gases - there was no other way to have space for the theater - but I drew the line at another sill coring. The doors were a much cheaper alternative, and didn't require another foundation penetration.

I don't know if either of those would be possible for you, but they might be worth keeping in mind.

-drin

Assuming a typical frame house, you can cut out the band joist and install the vent between ceiling joists. Much easier to cut wood than concrete.

Install an elbow down and you're set.

For example, you could fit an 8x14 duct in a typical joist bay.

My personal preference would be outside air intakes. With the louvered doors any products of incomplete combustion would be spread throughout the home. Again, my personal preference. A properly maintained system should have no problems.

Good luck,
Tim

Assuming a typical frame house, you can cut out the band joist and install the vent between ceiling joists. Much easier to cut wood than concrete.

Makes sense.

My personal preference would be outside air intakes. With the louvered doors any products of incomplete combustion would be spread throughout the home. Again, my personal preference. A properly maintained system should have no problems.

That's a good point too. In our case, when we moved the furnace and hot water heater there was (of course) no chimney in the new location, so I had a Power Vent installed for exhaust. I also had two additional gas sensors installed so any incomplete combustion gases cause the Vent to power up until the combustion gases have been exhausted.

I considered having another vent cut into the foundation but with the Power Vent already there (and given the layout of the house above the foundation where the furnace/hot water heater were located) it would have ended up with vented exhaust gases being pulled back in as intake gases - not a good scenario.

I also installed a CO/CO2/smoke detector in the furnace room to hopefully forestall any combustion gas buildup. It's been 10 months and we've had no problems, knock on wood.

-drin

Assuming a typical frame house, you can cut out the band joist and install the vent between ceiling joists. Much easier to cut wood than concrete....


So if I understand this correctly, I would be putting a 8"x14" permanently open "window" into my storage room? Wouldn't that bring in all sorts of humidity during the summer and freezing cold during the winter? Or does the HVAC basically counter act any exchange with the outside climate?

drin-

Sounds like a very smart install :) Power vents are sometime prone to trouble, but only because they fail safe. When there is a problem, the power vent prevents the appliance from firing up.

cathan-

Yes, pretty much. Right now I have 2 ducts that are completely open. However, before the winter comes I am going to install motor actuated dampers on them.

The sequence would be house calls for heat-->motor actuated dampers begin to open-->dampers open completely and end switch is activated-->end switch completes circuit and boiler fires

Depending on climate, you may be able to just leave them open. It gets kinda cold here so I am going for the dampers. In addition, as I suspect you agree, it doesn't make sense to have cold or humid air circulating through any part of your house when you don't need it :)

Tim

I'm not even sure that is allowed by code here in Loudoun. When the combustion air issue came up I was asking the inspector about direct venting into garage or outside and he seemed to indicate it was not allowed. Might want to speak to someone at the county office about your options.

Cheers,
Mark

On the side of my furnace there is a circular cutout, which, I understand, a pvc pipe could be affixed to (3-4"), which can be used as a fresh air supply. I am somewhat concerned about the combustable air in my utility room, although there is a transfer duct between that and the HT, which should function much the same way as a louvered door (in theory), in addition to being a passive return to for my theater.

My installer indicated that if I had problems that he would run a fresh air intake to the "cutout" and feed combustion that way. Furnace is off, but I will definitely put a co2 monitor down there before we get to the heating season.

Either way, I'll add the info to the plans and will ask if louve doors are allowed. If not, I'll draw in two vents going into the excercise room. I think it's 1,000 BTU per square inch of vent opening.

This is what I ended up doing too. The louvered door on the upstairs was much cheaper, like drin stated.

BTW, your drawings are cool, tho the electrical one just comes up "REC ROOM" with no drawings at all.

I see your ceiling is 7'3". Is that before or after the double drywall/AT treatment?
Welcome to the 7' club!!

Best,

Tom
Chinaclipper

I'm not even sure that is allowed by code here in Loudoun. When the combustion air issue came up I was asking the inspector about direct venting into garage or outside and he seemed to indicate it was not allowed. Might want to speak to someone at the county office about your options.

Cheers,
Mark


Well, you can't vent into the garage, as vapors would be drawn from the garage into the combustion chamber.

Creating a communicating air space between the mechanical room and another room/rooms should be acceptable, as long as the space is suitable.

Tim

BTW, your drawings are cool, tho the electrical one just comes up "REC ROOM" with no drawings at all.

I see your ceiling is 7'3". Is that before or after the double drywall/AT treatment?
Welcome to the 7' club!!

Best,

Tom
Chinaclipper

Very odd. Looks like photobucket is screwing with that particular file. Anyway, here it is again:

And yes, it should be around 7'3" finished... I hope. The room above is sucken by a few inches robbing me of height. :(

Anyway, I'm off to see the government.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/CathanHTpermitelectrical.gif

Well that sucked. 4 1/2 hours only to fail. I couldn't get the permits for the design I wanted. The permit proof guy I got apparently is known to be a real pain. He just wouldn't pass the column project without requiring a massive amount of additional data. In speaking with the engineer on the phone, it sounded like another 5-10 hours of work.

After leaving the building I decided to just forget the column move idea and to get the project approved without the structural changes. So I stood in line for another hour to get that finalized and now have permits.

Of course this means the whole bar idea is shot, I won't have the length to make that work. I'll need to rework the layout, but I think that the column will now need to be incorporated into the screen wall. That will flip the room layout and reduce my overall length by a few feet.

Can't say I'm not disappointed, but in a way this may be a blessing. Certainly it will save me a bunch of money and absolutely help speed up the time frame until completion.

Some of these inspectors are absolute twats.....its a bummer that it cost you for an engineer and now not needed. You would have thought thou the engineer would known the county requirements.

Oh well back to drawing board.........are you sure you can't integrate the pole into the bar design? Just wondering if your seats could be pushed a little further forward and screen wall back a tad.

Cheers,
Mark

It's not just the pole. It's the beam that drops too far below the ceiling. By the time I frame it in it would be around 6.5'. And it would be located where the riser ought to be, so no go.

Grrrr. I'm frustrated, but I'll still get a room that I'm happy with in the end. Basically if I flip, it would look a bit like this.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/CathanHTpermitfinal.jpg

No back row of stools, but I'd still have plenty of space behind the screen to build the sub. Not pictured, but the back row would become 4 seats or maybe even five.

Well that sucked. 4 1/2 hours only to fail. I couldn't get the permits for the design I wanted. The permit proof guy I got apparently is known to be a real pain. He just wouldn't pass the column project without requiring a massive amount of additional data. <snip>


Bummer. What additional data was he looking for?

Any thoughts about getting it approved with your original layout, minus the column/beam move. Then once you have the permit go in an say you want to amend it to include moving the column?

Tim

I did get the rest of the work approved and do have a legal permit to start - just without the column being moved.

He wanted original column and beam specs, depth of the current footers and then all of the first and second floor load calculations run again. There was some other stuff too, but that's off the top of my head.

Honestly, it really is a blessing. Figure it would have run another 5k to get all of this done just to get three stools in the back of the room. That's some pretty expensive stool space.

I did get the rest of the work approved and do have a legal permit to start - just without the column being moved.

He wanted original column and beam specs, depth of the current footers and then all of the first and second floor load calculations run again. There was some other stuff too, but that's off the top of my head.

Honestly, it really is a blessing. Figure it would have run another 5k to get all of this done just to get three stools in the back of the room. That's some pretty expensive stool space.Hey Michael, just checking in on your progress. It is a bummer you couldn't get the stools in but, like you said, that's some pretty expensive stool space. I like the new layout btw. How wide is that screen? Are you doing 2.35?

Thanks for the sympathy Craig. I'm still a bit bitter in that my engineer shouldn't have sent me in like a lamb for the slaughter. Based on what the inspector-guy-from-hell wanted, I would have had to remove and reinstall the footer and pole for the sistered column if the orginal specs for the house could not be found (which they can't). That was a cost killer. My guess is that if the documents would have included the load calculations then it would have slipped pasted.

Anyway, I will be absolutely doing a 2.35 CIH screen. Bryan has some new visio files with the exact pole location. We'll work out some way of hiding the pole and beam behind the screenwall and maximizing appropriate screen width. Bryan's orginal suggestion when the room was going to be a couple of feet longer was a 9' screen at around a 1.4 distance ratio. I'd like that ratio to be closer to 1.2 (I think), so perhaps I'll keep the roughly 9' screen width. I'm sitting on 12' of SMX screen material. I think I'd cry if I ended up wasting any more.

Eitherway, I think I'm going to have a whopping 3-4' of space behind the screen wall. That should give me a ton of space for a sub, speakers, heck may even throw in a pool back there...

You won't be sorry on the 2.35 - its unbelieveable. I think 1.2 is a good ratio. Out of curiousity, I went down and checked where we put our "temp seating" (still waiting on the recliners). We're at exactly 1.18 x SW. What is the distance between the seats and the walls? Any reason why you don't stretch the screen out right to the left wall (facing the screen)?

"a sub"? bah... and screw the pool, lets see a entire wall of subs behind that screen ;)

"a sub"? bah... and screw the pool, lets see a entire wall of subs behind that screen ;)

Yeah - you have got some serious space back there for an IB or TL Sub.....or at least great sub positioning. So look on positive side :D

Cheers,
Mark

What is the distance between the seats and the walls?

Not sure yet. But that why I hired BPape. ;) I'll post as soon as I have the speaker and seat placements.

Any reason why you don't stretch the screen out right to the left wall (facing the screen)?

That's just sloppy drawing on my part. The false screen wall will run from wall to wall.


"a sub"? bah... and screw the pool, lets see a entire wall of subs behind that screen ;)

Oh there will be. :) Similar to what ebr did, the plan is to put one or two massive DIY subs into the screen wall - picture a couple of 15" or 18" drivers in a box 100+ cubic foot sealed box.

Oh there will be. :) Similar to what ebr did, the plan is to put one or two massive DIY subs into the screen wall - picture a couple of 15" or 18" drivers in a box 100+ cubic foot sealed box.Sweet. So when does construction start?

This weekend. I'm trying to figure out where to start. There are some "tougher" projects I need to tackle early like rough in plumbing for the powder room and relocating the washer and dryer. Of course that involves re-routing pipes, busting up the slab, etc. - all things I'm a bit nervous tackling for the first time. But as they say, the first step in any long journey is always the toughest.

But as they say, the first step in any long journey is always the toughest.So true. There is a point where you have to stop planning and just get at 'er.

Two things to report - first I got to do my first HD run specific for this project. I'm tempted to keep track at this point. Got the copper so I can start on relocating the utility sink and washer/dryer.

The second thing is more interesting. When I got home a letter was waiting for me from the structural engineer that I hired for the column/beam moving project. He returned my full payment say that his goal was to help me get the permit and since that didn't happen that he just wanted payment for out of pocket expenses (gas, copying, etc.). Talk about a stand up guy.

But now I'm not sure what I should do. Now granted the materials that he provided with me were entirely lacking. So lacking that my application was flagged and the follow-up info required was far more detailed than normally required because the inspector didn't trust the engineer's work. However, the engineer did spend legitimate time of the project and had I been living anywhere but Fairfax, what he did should have been fine. I don't think I'd feel right just sending him $35. But clearly $575 isn't warranted either. What would you do?

I would send him more than the $35. YOu may need an engineer in the future, and courtesy works both ways.

Maybe if you don't want to give him a lot of cash you could get him a gift certificate to somewhere. Taking the time to get him a $50 gift certificate goes a lot further than writing a check for $85.

Good luck,
Tim

I am a big fan of rewarding people who show admirable values, not because they have to, but because they want to. I would do something along the line of what Mr. Tim suggested.

Now granted the materials that he provided with me were entirely lacking. So lacking that my application was flagged and the follow-up info required was far more detailed than normally required because the inspector didn't trust the engineer's work.


That says it all. I'd give him the $35. He obviously knows his work was poor, and he obviously learned a lesson. Why reward him for a job NOT well done?

Requirements vary between municipalities. I have never heard of having to submit the kind of information that was requested.

Wasn't this guy t&m? If so, it simply would have cost more money.

Typically speaking, once you have the engineer's stamp, he assumes all liability. I don't know why the muni took so much interest in the project. I guess that's a good thing?

Tim

Not sure what "t&m" means - time & money? But yes, with more money I could have gotten it done. It would have likely (based on the whims of the plan review guy) involved also replacing a third column and reinstalling a footing because both specs were unknown. That would have involved a ton more work that I couldn't have done and would have needed to hire someone to complete. These additional costs made it just too expensive for what I would have gained (2-3' of length).

I think I'll write him a kind thank you note and enclose a check for $100.

I wonder if the guy at the inspector's office has an engineering degree. If not, how does he decide what plans are inadequate or flawed?

Time and materials?

Yeah!! So I finally actually started to do work this weekend. Framed a wall for the 1/2 bath and started on routing all of the plumbing - waste, water and vents. This has to be the most complicated out of all of the basement sections with all of the copper and pvc that needs to be rerouted. Lot's of opportunity to get some detail wrong.

One plumbing related issue/question - the vent that exists nearby is a 1 1/2" pipe. While 1 1/2" is fine for the sink waste pipes (2"), it won't be okay for the toilet vent. I think 3" toilet waste pipes require 2" venting. How am I going to make this work so that I don't need to complete pull out the 1.5" and replace it with 2" venting from the attic to the basement? I was thinking about just doing all of the basement venting in 2" and tie it into the 1.5" pipe right at the ceiling with an adapter piece so that the adapter piece is hidden from view and just hope it passes. Anyone have any better ideas? And what can go wrong if one undersizes venting? I'm sure the 3" stack is vented appropriately somewhere else on one of the upper floors.

Second issue - I got a Ramset concrete nail driver to attach the framing to the concrete slab. I bought the yellow .22 caps, but they don't seem to drive the nail all the way in. The HD I went to doesn't have the red caps except in the quick strip variety (for the trigger activated gun). Will those fit in the hammer unit I have if I pop them out of the strip? Or any suggestions where I can find the red single caps? Lowes sells only sells remington and those caps seems to be around .27 and therefore don't fit (I tried last night).

I recommend a black knight sledge hammer. It worked very well in my situation with masonry nails.

Second issue - I got a Ramset concrete nail driver to attach the framing to the concrete slab.

When I started construction I was told that nail drivers are prone to cracking concrete. For that reason I went with masonry bits (about 20 of them) to attach my walls to the foundation.

Has anyone ever experienced this cracking? Just curious...

-drin

Just nailing in the carpet tack strips chipped my concrete floor so I expect there could be some truth to a nail gun cracking concrete.

I didn't use a nail gun, just Tapcon concrete screws. When I removed a wall to lengthen the theater, I was surprised to find I was able to unscrew the Tapcons which had been installed for over fifteen years. I was even able to reuse them after buying the matching bit.

Same here - Tapcon screws

Cheers,
Mark

One plumbing related issue/question - the vent that exists nearby is a 1 1/2" pipe. While 1 1/2" is fine for the sink waste pipes (2"), it won't be okay for the toilet vent. I think 3" toilet waste pipes require 2" venting. How am I going to make this work so that I don't need to complete pull out the 1.5" and replace it with 2" venting from the attic to the basement? I was thinking about just doing all of the basement venting in 2" and tie it into the 1.5" pipe right at the ceiling with an adapter piece so that the adapter piece is hidden from view and just hope it passes. Anyone have any better ideas? And what can go wrong if one undersizes venting? I'm sure the 3" stack is vented appropriately somewhere else on one of the upper floors.

I think I read somewhere there is some kind of venting valve that can be used as an alternative to conventional venting. If memory serves me it is called an Air Admittance Valve (AAV). I'm not sure about the county code on it.

I guess I'll go with tapcon screws then. It's a shame 'cause the Ramset driver is a pretty nifty tool.

As for Tapcon screws, I assume it doesn't matter if hex head or philips head screws are used. I picked up a box but only realized once I got home that they had the hex/slot heads. And it's one per stud cavity, right?

And finally, what is it with never having the right plumbing pipe pieces!?! I swear I have over 50 different fitting in various bends, angles, and sizes (1.5, 2, 3"). Yet some how I'm still missing the "right" fitting. Good thing HD is on the way home from work. I just stop by every day now and get another 6 or so fitting whether I think I'll need them or not. I'm bound to eventually have enough to run plumbing for an entire house...

Yes, AAV's are allowed by the IRC. They must have fresh air circulating around them and they must be accessible.

The hex head tapcons are much easier to use, as long as you can deal with the raised head.

Powder actuated fasteners work fine, but you need a decent gun. To be blunt, the Remington nailers are garbage. The fasteners are as well. Of course, for a one-time deal you can make do, but the tapcons are better than a remington.

If you can rent a hilti gun from HD, the fasteners will work much better, and be much faster.

Tim

The way I figure it, the nailer only needs to last for 100 or so uses. After that I'll be out of basement and I can't see needing it again for a couple of decades. Sadly it doesn't work given how hard my slab is. Oh well, $20 wasted. /shrug

Another quick plumbing question - given that I'm putting in plumbing below the slab and will eventually need to repour concrete, do I leave everything explosed until the plumbing inspection?

Yes, the plumbing needs to be inspected in it's entirety. You can usually have the inspector come out and do a partial if leaving it exposed will be a big problem.

Other places will accept pictures (of course, if something is wrong in the picture, you're screwed)

Tim

Thanks folks! Sorry for the threadjack.


-drin

Tapcons come in raised heads, for use with a wrench/slotted screwdriver, or in recessed style like a screw, using a Philips screwdriver. I put a pair of vice grips on the shaft of the screwdriver for easier screwing.

As for Tapcon screws, I assume it doesn't matter if hex head or philips head screws are used. I picked up a box but only realized once I got home that they had the hex/slot heads. And it's one per stud cavity, right?


I put one every four feet in the sills (the basement was unfinished and I double studded every wall in the place). The inspector never even blinked - just so long as he couldn't pull the wall down by tugging on it he was satisfied.

-drin

I put my tap cons in every other stud cavity so about every 4' like drin.

Again inspector did not comment - was more interested in checking the fire stopping.

Cheers,
Mark

Thanks for the info guys.

Spent today learning how to sweat copper. Getting the hang of it, I think. We'll see the first time the water gets turned on...

I scored the concrete I need to bust up. Having the wife hold the vacumn and spray a bit of water really helped keep the dust down. This Friday I'll rent a jackhammer to destroy a bit of slab.

So today was the day to play with really big power tool - namely a brute of a jackhammer. Since we are putting in a half bath as part of the over all theater project, at some point I was going to have to put a hole in the ground in order for the plumbing rough in. Having neither done this sort of plumbing, nor ever have used such a tool, let's just say it was going to be a real interesting day.

So early this morning I ran down to Sunbelt Rental to secure myself a Bosche electric jackhammer. The thing ran me around $90 including the chisels for a full days rental. Getting the beast down the stairs was made easy in that it came with its own dolly.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0169.jpg

Prepping the work area took a bit of time. First I made sure to turn the AC and fan. Then put a box fan into the window so to blow any dust out. Then I readjusted the plastic sheeting we had put up to help contain the dust from when we scored the cement. Here is the tool I used for the scoring. It came with a diamond blade and ran around $65 dollars.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0189.jpg

And here is the work site post scoring and ready for the beast.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0165.jpg

Operating the jackhammer wasn’t all too hard. It’s pretty heavy to lift into location (weighs around 50 lbs) but other wise it’s as simple as pulling the trigger. Word of warning – make sure you wear gloves, goggles and a mask. I spent a few extra dollars for a real dusk mask and it made a world of difference to my lungs. Normally I would be wheezing from all the dust that gets past those paper masks.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0190.jpg

So one trick I learn is to start the jackhammer in the middle of the scored area and just punch all the way through. Usually you can feel it when it makes it past the rebar and into the gravel. DO NOT punch past the gravel. You don’t know what’s down there - as I was soon to learn.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0171.jpg

Another trick is to use the inside of your foot to help steady the hammer from sliding away from the spot you want to hammer. I’m sure this is counter to all sorts of OSHA rules, but hey, it worked and I still have all of my toes.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0172.jpg

In all seriousness, the hammer is too heavy to ever bounce up onto your foot, but still, be careful, and unlike me, wear steel toed boots.

Okay, once you clear out a small hole and get to the rebar, just cut it out with the grinder and just continue to pound away. I brought about six for so buckets of broken concrete upstairs to trash later.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0173.jpg

At some point though, I knew I was going to get close to where the waste stack entered the concrete, and I wanted to make sure that I did nothing to break the pipe. That would have been bad as I would not have had the energy to even try to fix something like that today. What I did was start to excavate below the concrete by hand. Once I cleared out a spot to the point I could see that there wasn’t a pipe I’d use the jackhammer to break off more concrete.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0177.jpg

So dig, then hammer, dig, then hammer, then dig a bit more. Eventually I spotted the pipe.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0175.jpg

OH OH!! Trouble! I thought the pipe would have continued to run into the room. Instead it makes a 90 degree turn and seems to be running parallel to the ditch I’ve been digging. Good think I didn’t jackhammer past the rebar level other wise I could have easily destroyed the pipe. Good news is I don't need to break the concrete where the waste pipe enteres the ground.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0178.jpg

OH OH! More trouble! There seems to be a drainage pipe running right next to the waste pipe.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0179.jpg

So to be able to get any sort of new plumbing to fit I need to start digging… a lot….and deep. And I dig.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0178.jpg
And I dig.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0180.jpg
And I eventually hit China!
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0182.jpg
And yet I dig some more.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0183.jpg

Eventually I am able to clear away enough gravel and dirt so that I think I will be able to put in a t-joint (or whatever they are called) and push the drainage tube out of the way.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0188.jpg
But it took several hours of digging with only my hands and a plant-potting spade. My shovel just was useless, so I had to take up the stone just a handful at a time. That sucked. Here’s the pile of the materials that I dug up that was below the rebar.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0186.jpg

Anyway, long story short, I now have a foxhole in my basement. Perfect in case I need to take cover and fight back against an invading army or something. Well at least my foot and shin will be protected.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0184.jpg

Later this weekend, assuming I’ve recovered, I’ll finish with the waste and venting part of the plumbing. Until then, it’s time to take a few of these and hit the sofa. Ouch, I’m beyond sore…
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0187.jpg

Awesome! I pretty much do everything myself, but I probably would of contracted this one out :D That pipe looks like one that they use for landscaping. Is that correct or is it just an illusion?

Lookin good!

The flexible pipe is underslab drainage. That is a good sign! A lot of builders skimp and don't put them in.

Also, never use a tee on a horizontal-to-horizontal transition. You can use it for horizontal to vertical only (eg a horizontal pipe in the ceiling and you need to go down a wall).

You can't use a tee for vertical to horizontal (eg pipe goes through floor and now you need a horizontal run in the basement) or to make changes in horizontal direction.

An exception would be a dry vent (air only, no.. err.. potty waste)

You want to use a wye to tap in and a long-turn elbow for corners.

Good luck!

Tim

Gonzo - The pipe is one of those slotted corregated pipes. I assume it's tied into the sump pump somewhere so to keep the water pressure low below the slab.

I priced the cost of getting the rough-in put in - about 4k. My cost - $100 rental, $65 dollar new tool purchase and $200 in pipe and copper, and a few hard days labor. Nothing really technical so far. Of course the end product needs to pass inspection, so we'll see.

Tim - Looking at the photo with the new pvc pipe parts in it (four photos up) - is what I have wrong?

about 4k.

'nuf said :)

Cathan-

Unfortunately, that is wrong.

You can't use a regular elbow, you need a long-turn elbow.

You also can't use a tee, you need a wye.

My suggestion (I know you'll cringe) is to dig up on the other side of the closet flange and have the sewage discharge from the toilet in the same direction as the flow of the sewer pipe.

Hopefully you can cut the wye in within 6' of the vertical stack and then you won't need o run another vent (although not a big deal).

WIth the proper wye and long turn elbow the trench would need to be about 2' wide and your flang would be about 2' from the existing sewer pipe unless you add another turn (an 1/8 bend maybe)

Tim

Very much appreciate you sheparding me through this Tim. I'll buy you a beer or two once I've gotten past this hurdle.

Based on your photo I think I get. Are the long turn elbows basically the 45 degree pieces? If so, I'll lay out the run and take another picture. I can only expand the trench to the right in that photo (in the direction of the drainage pipe). To the left is the stud wall. The waste flows from bottom to top. The last part of the black pipe you see in the photo is where it angles steeply downward. I put the wye with the 2" connector as the vent piece, but what it sounds like I may not need that vent. The length from where the toilet would be to the vertical stack going up to the main floor is less than 6'.

Anyway, let me try again and repost.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0192.jpg

I marked the flow direction of the parts. The wye is the piece I would cut into the existing 3" pipe. If necessary, I'd put the vent "t" in the straight piece labled "from down stack".

And yes, in case you were wondering, I have a few "spare" parts right now. Trying to average only 1 HD per day if I can. ;) :)

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0167.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0192.jpg



What plumbing code are you under? Does it state anything specific about a change in direction like that? For the life of me, I can't help but think there is a more efficient way to route that.

LOL! I love it, you do work like I do :)

I punched a hole in my return vent when I was trying to cut a hole for some soda syrup lines in the floor above the garage -- doh!

I love the picture of "digging to China" -- killed me!

I also agree with your "buy all of HD and hope I got what I need for this one little job" approach as well. I think when I was done (well, mostly done) I took back about $300 worth of "extras" and I still find a part or two lying around the garage each week and just put it in a pile until the next time I go to HD. I haven't actually paid "new" cash for anything in months ;)

Good luck and remember the golden rules of plumbing: "Poop don't flow uphill" and "Don't chew your fingernails!"

Mike

You're getting closer. but you can't use a regular elbow (you have a regular elbow between 2 street 45's).

The way you have the wye set up with a street 45 is typical of how it's done.

A long turn el is a 90 degree bend but the radius is about twice that of a regular el.

Technically you need a cleanout at a change in direction, so you would need a cleanout somewhere in all those bends :)

Edit: also, that looks like ABS pipe in the basement, make sure you get a glue compatible with pvc and abs. No abs around here (i believe you can join the two directly as long as you use the proper glue, but not sure)

Another alternative would be to move the location of the toilet closer to the stack :)

Chopping out more concrete shouldn't be too bad. I use a 7-1/4" diamond blade on a skilsaw. It almost cuts all the way through most basement slabs. Then whack it with a sledgehammer or hand maul.


Tim

I love the picture of "digging to China" -- killed me!

I saw that last night, and it was good laugh for a long day:-)

Hi again. Can I get a quick spot check on how I'm doing the sink drains and vents?

This is how the drain and vent connection should run. I assume it's fine to transition from a 1 1/2" p trap to a 2" drain pipe. The 1 1/2" pipe is the one stuffed with plastic coming out of the wye.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0193.jpg

This photo is of how I was hoping to connect the vent from the utility sink to the vertical vent run. Are either option #1 (t) or #2 (wye) correct?
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0194.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0195.jpg

Love to get this locked in today so I can get my master bath back. :)

Love to get this locked in today so I can get my master bath back. :)

Just had a visual of you working on the pipes and someone taking an old number 2 in the master bath :eek: :eek: :eek:

Yeah. I must have reminded my wife a dozen times not to use the bathroom or kitchen sinks. I ended up duct taping the toilet seat closed just to make sure.

So the main stack is glued together, but the vent runs and the sink drain are together. but not yet glued. That should hold until I can get back to working on this later this week. After spending an hour with bpape discussing room construction I decided to call it a day. I'm spent. Good news - no HD run necessary today. :)

For a vent connection, #1 is fine. I don't understand what the tee+vent up that are 2 stud cavities to the right of the wet sink are for? Are you venting another fixture further up the line?

When you are doing a dry vent you can use the short els and tees (I see you found the long-turn elbows :D ).

As far as the wet sink connection there is a rule that the weir of the trap cannot be above the inlet. The vent takeoff cannot be below the weir of the trap. I believe the current layout violates both these rules. The whole trap/weir/vent thing is a little confusing to me, so I always do it the same way, because I know it works :D

See attached image for my recommendation.



Tim

Mr. Tim,
Just wanted to let you know, that you rock! I assume you do this for a living, right? Anyway, it is nice to have your know-how on the forum.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0173.jpg

Oh man, you're lucky!!! My previous house I had to do that to put drain tile in because of the water problems I was having and those little electric jack hammers didn't work at all for me. It only chipped the surface!!!!

The concrete was 7" thick!!! :eek:

I had to rent a huge air hammer with a industrial size compressor that was on a trailer that you pull behind a truck. I think that jack hammer was 70 pounds! We had 3 people taking turns using it because it wore you out!!

I think I hauled 50-60 5 gallon buckets of concrete out of that basement!!!

Like I said, you were lucky!! ;)

Mr. Tim,
Just wanted to let you know, that you rock! I assume you do this for a living, right? Anyway, it is nice to have your know-how on the forum.

Thanks :)

I used to do contracting.. Every once in a while I would have to plumb something in. Now I'm certified as an inspector. Plumbing isn't part of my responsibilities so I'm kind of rusty on it.. been a while since I did the training.

Good luck,
Tim

Michael,

You been a busy bee this weekend. This plumbing stuff sure can be rocket science at times. Bet you glad Mr. Tim is on hand. When you get to Electrical and HVAC things should be a little simpler as air and electrons don't mind going upwards :D

Cheers,
Mark

For a vent connection, #1 is fine. I don't understand what the tee+vent up that are 2 stud cavities to the right of the wet sink are for? Are you venting another fixture further up the line?

You are correct. There is a utlity sink further up the line. It's out of range for the bathroom sink's vent to count.


When you are doing a dry vent you can use the short els and tees (I see you found the long-turn elbows :D ).

Hehehe. Yep. I apparently had them all along in the 2" variety. Like I mentioned before, I bought a few spare parts... ;)

As far as the wet sink connection there is a rule that the weir of the trap cannot be above the inlet. The vent takeoff cannot be below the weir of the trap. I believe the current layout violates both these rules. The whole trap/weir/vent thing is a little confusing to me, so I always do it the same way, because I know it works :D

Hmmm. Good diagram. I can do that. It actually simplifies things. I'll need to do the same thing for the utility sink. Since that that is at the end of that pipe run I'll have to move the vent closer to the utility sink or else the slope of the drain pipe will cause the vent to be below the trap weir.


johnny15 - I guess it could be worse - although my body is telling me that it was bad enough. The jackhammer phase turned out to be the easy part. Once the intial hole was in, chipping and enlarging was pretty straight forward. It was the digging by hand that was a major pain. That pile in the photo basically doubled by the time I made room for all of the pipe runs and necessary wiggle room.

Mark - It's really nice to finally be working, even if this stuff takes forever to get right. Right now I'm hoping to take a day off this week to finish the plumbing and then call for a partial inspection next week so that I can close the floor. And yes, Mr. Tim will get naming rights for the WC by the time this part is done. ;)

After discussing some things with Bryan, the new plan is to incorporate a dedicated IB chamber into the design. This will shrink the space behind the screen to roughly 2 1/2 feet. Behind the room wall I will build another isolated space which will serve as a giant sub enclosure. Hopefully I'll get all of the "wow-factor" of an IB set-up without some of the house shaking side-effect and canceling the sound isolation.

I need to do a bunch more research on this issue and will have to fine tune the chamber's final size accordingly, but here is a basic floor plan.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/theater1.jpg

I think I read somewhere there is some kind of venting valve that can be used as an alternative to conventional venting. If memory serves me it is called an Air Admittance Valve (AAV). I'm not sure about the county code on it.

Right, this is a studor valve (www.studor.com (http://www.studor.com)). They run around $20 at your big box hardware stores. I have on in my basement bathroom, as well as for venting in our basement bar and kitchen island. As long as you can access them and leave air around them, that's fine. In my case, I have one in a normal 2x4 stud-wall and I will leave an a/c return-air register over the opening for access and air flow.

-Ryan

I am sure Bryan addressed this, but I assume you've thought through having an IB sub behind the screenwall, and any rippling on the screen?

Dave - yep. It's been discussed as a potential issue. I'm hoping how the screen wall is built and the location of the drivers (below screen level) will help mitigate the issue. Anyway, I don't know enough about how to build the sub to offer anything meaningful, except to say that it part of the master plan. Hopefully the learning curve to build one is less than the year it took before I was ready to start building the room. Cult of the IB and the AVS DIY speaker forum have been a good start. In all likelihood I'll need to engage an expert to help with the final design.

Cathan I just wanted to emphasize in my drawing it says "sanitary tee". YOu have to use a tee, not a wye.

Got to thinking about how I have been telling you that things have to be wyes.

If you used a wye+45 the weir of the trap would be above the inlet. The sanitary tee keeps the weir below the inlet, which is what you want.

Tim

Right. Tee not wye, except after C.

Silly plumbing grammar rules.

Nice work on the theater!

Cathan, I like what I am seeing so far. I will be in the same slow boat as you when I start. Wait till I can afford the next step before jumping in. Plus, I need to wait another year to start to make sure I have no basement issues with my concrete settling. That and all my current cash is going towards doing a backyard on the new house...

Bahhh. Aren't backyards under 80' of snow most of the year in Colorado? ;) :)

Funny you should mention it, our patio and garden is what delayed my start by 6 months as well. The only thing that may slow things down now is that at some point I need to redo our masterbath. But I'm sure I can put that off for another 3/4 of a year.

Anyway, the day you break ground, if you listen hard enough, you may hear the sound of applause and cheer coming across the eastern plain.

I'm taking the day off to play in the basement.

Final check before I glue every thing together.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0196.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0197.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0198.jpg

Michael,

Is that T on the vent the right way? Not sure if it maters.

I notice the rough-in for the copper is 1/2", how many appliances are going to tap into this? My inspector would only allow 2. if you have more than 2 you may need to re-run the main feed in 3/4"

Cheers,
Mark

In the third photo (hookup for the utility sink, I think)-- I wouldn't use a sanitary tee on it's back like that. I think what you have would pass inspection, however I recommend the following:

Replace the tee with a wye+45, put a threaded cleanout on the wye where you have the trap connected (cleanouts are required, I don't know if disconnecting the trap the way you have it would be an acceptable "cleanout").

Stub up out of the top of the wye, connect a sanitary tee, and connect the trap to that. Hopefully you have enough clearance under the basin to add the fitting.

I don't see a problem with the vent piping.

Good luck,
Tim

Michael,

I notice the rough-in for the copper is 1/2", how many appliances are going to tap into this? My inspector would only allow 2. if you have more than 2 you may need to re-run the main feed in 3/4"



Let's see - washer, utility sink, bathroom sink. I was planning on tapping into a 1/2 inch pipe. I guess it wouldn't be difficult for me to bring 3/4 some where nearby and use 1/2 for the washer and utility sink and the another 1/2 for the bath and toilet.

Off to HD then. I don't have any 3/4 copper stuff.

Alternatively, replace the street 45 between the tee and the trap with a wye, tick a cleanout in the end of the wye.

I still prefer the my first idea. But, I think the only real problem is a lack of cleanout.

Tim

In the third photo (hookup for the utility sink, I think)-- I wouldn't use a sanitary tee on it's back like that. I think what you have would pass inspection, however I recommend the following:

Replace the tee with a wye+45, put a threaded cleanout on the wye where you have the trap connected (cleanouts are required, I don't know if disconnecting the trap the way you have it would be an acceptable "cleanout").

Stub up out of the top of the wye, connect a sanitary tee, and connect the trap to that. Hopefully you have enough clearance under the basin to add the fitting.

I don't see a problem with the vent piping.

Good luck,
Tim

Do you mean this photo?
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0198.jpg
That's for the wet bar. The p-trap (which I need to still buy) would connect to the tee. The proposed tubing is sitting up right in front of the vertical stack and vent I would need to cut into.

If you mean this photo then I'm not sure what you mean.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0197.jpg
I'm taking the 2" pipe down to 1.5" right before the p trap. The p trap screws off.

I was referring to the last photo where the p-trap screws right off.

I wasn't sure if you could use a 1-1/2" opening as a cleanout for a 2" pipe. I just looked it up and that is acceptable (I thought it might need to be a full 2").

So, all is well.

Tim

Excellent! Thanks again. :)

Now off to HD for some 3/4 copper goodies and to return a few pvp fittings.

Okay, so how annoying is it to have returned a bunch of stuff only to need some of those things a short while later!?! Last week I returned a good $160 worth of pvc fittings only to screw up gluing the vent turns together requiring me to redo it. So another two HD runs later just to rebuy the parts and I'm finally done with the waste and venting.

The copper lines are still being worked on. I decided to put in a on/off value right where I'm tieing into the the hot and cold water for the bath and bar sink. That way if I have any leaks I don't have to shut down the entire house's water and just the new lines.

After that I'll need to get the plumbing inspected (if only the toilet part) so that I can close up the hole in the slab and be able to continue framing. I'll shoot for an inspection for this Wednesday.

Speaking of framing, just how much space do I need to leave next to the HVAC return stack? I'd like to build the wall so that the column is in the wall, but that would put me right next to the vents. Do I need to keep 6" around this? The 2x6 in this photo is where I want to run the wall.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0200.jpg

Looking good Cathan.

I just wanted to say that I've read the entire thread and I am glad you did not move those posts and beams... I have seen it done before and the end result seemed to be much more work than the end result was worth. I still don't understand why builders cut corners and places those things wherever they see fit without thinking "perhaps somone want to use the basement for something other than cold storage".

One suggestion (I am not too sure how far you are with your build or if you can make any changes now), would be to look into a sliding pocket door for your bathroom. Space looks like it's at a premuim for that bathroom, so a sliding pocket door might be just your ticket to give you some more room.

The only rule that would apply to the return plenum is that it be serviceable. If you have filters, humidifier etc you must be able to service them. Otherwise you can put the wall wherever you want.

I wouldn;t want the duct touching anything as it might introduce noise.

Lookin good,
Tim

Ockie - Thanks. It's nice to make a little bit of progress. The pocket door idea is a good one. I'll check with the wife if she cares. That being said, I think a normal 24" door should work fine. I made the 1/2 bath the same size as the 1/2 bath we have on the main level.

Tim - Perfect. That's what I thought, but just wanted to make sure. I think I'll use 2x4 for that part of the wall to keep it away from the duct. I have a I-beam that runs parrallel with the wall that will be directly above the wall header. I need to install the wall so that the finished side of the wall has the beam cleanly inside the wall once the drywall is installed.

Hey Michael, just back from vacation and checked in on your thread. Looks like you're making some good progress! Keep the pics coming!

Michael - next time you are at home depot - look at the plumbing fittings named SharkBite.

Little expensive but man they work like a champ. Especially if you need to go from copper to pvc with no soldering and quick + easy.

I was skeptical but now I am a huge fan. I can retire my gas torch, flux and solder forever now. Even if you choose not to use them for the bathroom - it is good to know that they exist as I think they are fairly new.

Welcome home, Craig.

Progress, well yes. Good, that remains to be determined by the plumbing inspector tomorrow. ;)

Speaking of progress it's disheartening when you work in the basement the entire day and when the wife asks you what you got done you can only show her a couple of pieces of copper that are now stuck together.

jikkjack - I've seen those, but wasn't sure what they could be used for, code, ect. I may ask the inspector about them tomorrow. If they are easy to work with and I have leaks that need fixing (my plan is to make the connections to the main water lines tomorrow and test my work) I may give them a shot.

edit: Just as a side note, can I bitch how much I hate my local HD. It took an hour to searching to turn up one single 3/4" 90 degree street fitting. I need two more. How can they be out of this sort of thing for the past few weeks now!?!

Welcome home, Craig.

Progress, well yes. Good, that remains to be determined by the plumbing inspector tomorrow. ;)

Speaking of progress it's disheartening when you work in the basement the entire day and when the wife asks you what you got done you can only show her a couple of pieces of copper that are now stuck together.I can certainly identify with that. There were days that I wondered why I even bothered.

Love the HD runs counter. It made me wonder how many I'm up to - Its got to be about 150. I actually started to figure out the shift patterns of the staff :o

Good luck with the inspector tomorrow!

Same here. For awhile I thought you were counting off the number of Hi-Def runs in your house but then I realized it was Home Depot. LOL! Now there's a number I'd be afraid of...

Good luck with the inspector :)

Mike

Okay, so no surprise I failed. :)

Fairfax won't allow me to glue ABS and PVC together, but they do allow those rubber grommet adaptors. That means I need to re-run the entire waste connection. But he agreed that I didn't need to add an additional waste vent.

The inspector was super nice about things and pointed out a few more issues I was going to run into. Sounds like he does all the inspections for my part of town so glad the first meeting went well.

Although you didn't pass first time, it still sounds like a good outcome, and sounds similar to the situation I ended up with.

I really leveraged the inspectors in my area - I was calling the guys all the time and they were really good about answering my questions and stopping over even when I hadn't scheduled an inspection. My view of it was that I paid good money to leverage their expertise and make sure it was done right, so I made them work for their money ;) Seriously though, they were very nice, very knowledgeable and more than willing to help. Maybe I was just fortunate, but I think sometimes people unfairly look upon inspectors as the "bad guys", but if you develop the right relationship with them, they can be very helpful.

Well, that's not too bad. When you say 'rubber grommet' do you mean a no-hub (eg furnco) connector? Looks like the only bit of trouble will be near the floor.

Second time is a charm :)

Good luck,
Tim

Well, that's not too bad. When you say 'rubber grommet' do you mean a no-hub (eg furnco) connector? Looks like the only bit of trouble will be near the floor.
...
Tim

Yeppers. I'm just going to redo the entire run from where I cut into the down stack to where I reconnected in the floor with PVC and tie it together to the ABS with furnco connectors at each end.

Man what a day. Nearly 12 hours just to fix the plumbing stuff. But that includes another 3 unplanned for HD runs. I kept forgetting parts I needed, even when I was armed with a list. :( :o

One additional boo-boo I made that needed fixing was that I put the tee the wrong way on the vent. Mark had spotted it, I just didn't pick up on the fact. Pretty simple to change it around.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0204.jpg

Anyway, it's good to know that it's pretty much done. Just need to make 4 more copper connections and tie into the working water lines, fix any leaks and plumbing is done. :D

Excellent work Michael, keep going =)....

Michael - I feel you pain.

I had the Outlaws over last week and they wrecked my garbage disposal. So off to HD bought a new 'quiet' disposal - get it home and try to connect it up to find out its too wide and need to re-route the PVC waste.

So off to HD get all the parts I think I need, get back re-route plumbing for the disposal only to find the sink waste does not line up now.

So back to HD, get few extra bits and sort that.

What should have been a single trip and 15min install ended up being 3 trips and 5 hrs in time :(

One recomendation I have for anyone is to have storage containers for the different hardware stores you use......overbuy on materials and put surplus in the container with receipts. Don't rush back to return - wait till you are done and passed inspection - then return. I know there have been many times I've returned and re-purchased stuff.

Good luck here on in.

Cheers,
Mark

I'm home today waiting on the inspector so I can close up the slab. The plan today is to connect the water line(s).

Any tips for making the connection? I know that the pipes have to be bone dry or else it will leak. Is there anything I can do to speed the drying process? I've heard that one can stuff bread into the pipes to keep water from dripping in during the sweating? Anything else?

Hopefully I don't have too many leaks. Right now I'm working just on the cold water run. Figure test one at a time.

:D :D :D Well the bread trick work. The cold water is connected. And better yet, not a single leak in the entire cold water run for the bath and wet bar! :D :D

Had to do a little happy dance in the basement. I was worried that I'd be spending all day fixing issues. Of course I most likely jinxed myself when it comes to the hot water connection...

That's what I did -- use the bread trick. Worked for me too :)

Glad you got it first try, I had to do a second take on one of my joints but it was a compression fitting and I just hadn't tightened enough so not a big deal, just a lot of yelling to "turn it off, turn it off!!" on the main line downstairs as I was holding a towel around the joint upstairs. LOL! :D

Mike

:D :D :D Still doing the happy dance. :D :D :D

Hot water connected and no leaks in that line either.

Inspector came by and passed me on the slab close in. He wants me to reinforce the Furnco fittings with some sort of stainless steel wrap. Heading to HD to see if I can find it and then calling it a day. Essentially my plumbing is all done except for the final sink and other fixture attachments. Now I can cut out the old pipe run for the washer and move the machine to it's new location.

Next up - moving the dryer (requires new venting), moving the washer (cutting out old piping) and closing up the slab (wheee cement!!).

Your moving along at a nice speed - just don't put the PJ up :D

Inspector came by and passed me

Nice work! Can we see a video of that happy dance?

Mark - No worries. I plan on the PJ being the last purchase since it's a big ticket item. By that time I'm hoping to get WAF for accelerating the funding. Just don't tell her. ;)

Gonzo - For the sake of my family's well being, I'm afraid not.

Excellent progress. i'm following the build with rapt attention. Excellent job and a big thanks to Mr. Tim and Brit for the excellent advice. Helped me out too.

Brit - I bet I drive close to your place each day on my trek from Winchester (end of routes 7 , 50, and 66) to Reston. Cathan, I used to live in FFX too.

Thanks again for the post and the timely help.

CJ

Good progress Michael! I'll bet you're looking forward to getting that slab closed up. What are you planning to do after that? Start framing?

Well technically framing has started - the powder room is half framed, and I've started working out the wall location for the wetbar. That had to get done so that I knew where to run the water and waste lines. But yes, once the washer and dry are moved and the slab is closed, I'll frame the rest of the basement first. By the time I get that done, I'll need to order the clips for the theater walls and ceiling. I need to pace myself so to accumulate some funds for some of the early big purchase items (HVAC and egress window install).

I'll get a chance to do some more this weekend. I'll try to post some photos of the things that the inspector gave me feedback on. One never knows who might learn from my mistakes or misteps down the road.

Finally, one quick question - how wide do you suggest making the equipment closet. In my case the face of that closet bumps out to end of counter depth. I need to figure out just how much front width I need so that the rack and molding will look good. 30" enough?

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/closetframing-1.jpg
Here's what I'm talking about. For permit purposes I guestimated the closet size.

Also, how deep should the counter recess be? I'm assuming however deep the countertop is, but that is what, 27"?

I went with 32" wide, but I ended up doing it a little different since I had no back access.

http://images107.fotki.com/v540/photos/6/649633/2311872/EquipmentCloset2-vi.jpg

Bud

Thanks, Bud.

Most counters (kitchen, wetbar) are 24" add about a 3/4" overhang for the counter top. So...about 25".

What are your plans for your equipment rack? I think it really depends on what you want to do - if you use a Middle Atlantic Slim 5, for example, then you should rough in the framing for that (around 20" IIRC). Mine is 22.5" which gives me 1/2" on either side of the rack which will be (this weekends project actually) covered by a moulding.

Thanks for the measurements guys. That helps me noodle things through a bit better.

I was thinking a just a rail system and then I could access things through a door from the back storage area. Looks like the opening needs just to be 19 1/8". So if I center the opening on a 30-32" that gives me 5-6" per side. That ought to be plenty.

Okay, so I got another story for everyone.

This past weekend was pretty booked with social events, so i had to use my limited basement time wisely. I figure that in a couple of hours I should easily be able to take out the old washer/sink pipes, freeing me up to continue framing that part of the basement. All I need to do was turn off the water, empty the lines, cut the copper in a couple of places and sweat a couple of fitting together. Easy right? Cake, right?

Well the work itself was pretty straight forward. Step one - I warned the wife that we'd be without water for a hour, perhaps two if for some reason I got my first leak. But that would still give her plenty of time to get ready for the engagement we were going to later that day.

Step two was to do the work. Here is a photo of the line I terminated and capped, and another of the section of pipe where I cut out a tee and replaced it with a continuous piece.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0218.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0217.jpg

Step three was turn the water back on. I turned on the main water line and checked for leaks - all clear. Everything is dry. I turn on the hot water by turning the value at the water heater. Again, no leaks.

Next I go up stairs to turn off the faucets I had turned on earlier while draining the pipes.

Hmmmm, first signs of a problem - no hot water is flowing. So I run back down and check that I turned on the hot water. I spin the valve handle clockwise, but that doesn't seem to do anything. It just spins. So I go counter-clockwise (to close the valve) and it still spins (I never get resistance). Crud - looks like the valve broke.

No problem. Minor issue. I can just turn off the main water line and replace that valve. I have a spare. It probably corroded as it looks original to the house.

So I warn the wife that it make take a bit longer and go turn off the main water line. This time the valve closes, gives a bit of resistance then suddenly gives no resistance. Double crud!! I can't shut down the main water line. Now what do I do?

Well I do what any normal person would do - I throw a fit in the basement and curse all known and unknown gods of plumbing, their off-springs and all things copper. :mad:

Next step is to go see the wife and try to explain that she can't take a shower because the house is broken and that it had nothing to do with any of the new work that I did. Plus I had no clue how to fix it.

So I had to call a plumber. :(

I called Roto-Rooter and they sent someone out who showed up in about 30 minutes. Hmmmm, I'm thinking, perhaps wifey-poo won't be too pissed if this gets fixed soon. The plumber then shows me where at the street I can turn off the water to my house (and my neighbors' houses for that matter). Since he's there and because at this point I was frazzled, short a couple of fixtures, and running out of time to do a HD run, I had him replace the values.

Here are the two new values.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0211.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0210.jpg
The above connection he kept getting pin-hole leaks because of the water trapped in the line. It took him two or three tries before it worked. I would have lost my cool given the time pressure I was under. So I don't regret having called in a pro.

And being a nice and enterprising young plumber-fella, he let's me know it will run me $500 if I want to charge the costs on my credit card thru the company, or that for a couple of hundred cash he'd be happy to do the work. Hmmmm, $500 or $200. Tough call.

Needless to say I now have two new ball values and know how to turn off the water at the main street. And I'll never stall one of those faucet values that will clearly corrode and seize... no wait! Triple crud!!! Oh well...

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0212.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0216.jpg

Amazingly enough, my wife doesn't blame me for the plumbing goof. Even though I technically broke the values by being the person touching them when they seized, they weren't part of anything I was working on. At least that's my story and I'm stick'n to it. :o

Well the work itself was pretty straight forward. Step one - I warned the wife that we'd be without power for a hour, perhaps two if for some reason I got my first leak. But that would still give her plenty of time to get ready for the engagement we were going to later that day.


Ok, problem #1. You're turning off the power to do some plumbing. :p I'd hate to see what happens when you do the wiring :D

$500 to replace some valves? Sounds fishy to me.

Alas, progress is progress!

Tim

"the house is broken"... that's classic. Love it!

Bud

Ok, problem #1. You're turning off the power to do some plumbing. :p I'd hate to see what happens when you do the wiring :D

$500 to replace some valves? Sounds fishy to me.

Alas, progress is progress!

Tim

:D Ok. I fixed that typo. End of the day and I'm wiped. :D

Yeah - the quoted price for weekend emergency service to replace the two values was $478. I'm sure they figure they can bleed us dry if it's an emergency. At the end of day I didn't pay that.

This just sounds exactly like what would happen to me if I was in a hurry! After too many of these type occurances, I've learned. I never try to do anything that has a potential for problems when time is short, as that's when "Mr. Moore" and his damn laws show up.

Glad it turned out OK
Chip

Chip - You mean Murphy? ;)

And, yes, I do agree - never think that 5 hours is enough time for a 30 minute project. :D

Chip - You mean Murphy? ;)

And, yes, I do agree - never think that 5 hours is enough time for a 30 minute project. :DThat is so true. When I started the project my wife would ask me how long I thought different parts of it would take. I would give her my best, well-considered estimate and still miss it by a mile. Needless to say, she doesn't ask any more. And when I head downstairs saying, "this should only take an hour or two", she knows I'm gone for the day.

Must feel good to get the plumbing bit behind you, despite the "house is broken" issues ;)

"...the house is broken...." Most excellent. This really had me rolling.

A few weeks ago, I was moving the fresh water plumbing to allow for a single access point within the theater. I also had to move a water hammer arrestor to an area within a work closet instead of having it hanging from the ceiling, and added a T to the main drail stack to be used for a future drain for a bar sink.

....oh...and my father in law (a plumbing neophite) was helping....

So we begin by warning the rest of the family that the plumbing would be down and that the toilets CAN'T be used, lest we'd get sewage into the basement (and on us too)! I taped blue tape over each plumbing fixture as a reminder, and even locked the doors to each of the bathrooms.

We cut into the waste water stack to add a T, then replumbed it (rotated the cleanout a bit and regiggered the rest of the stack). At the same time, I had the fresh water turned off and began to relocate the fresh water entry point. Working with CPVC was not too hard, and things were moving along at a good clip. At one point, I looked up and saw that my father in law had been quite helpful...he had pre-glued all of the CPVC fittings that I had purchased for the entire plumbing refit! He didn't know that CPVC needs to be glued up as you go along because the glue dries really quickly. He also glued up all of the waste water fitttings too.

...@#$@#$##$%^$% DARN !!!!

I thought..no biggie, I'll head to the big blue box and pick up another bunch of fittings and get the job done. When I pulled up into the parking lot of Lowe's, I quickly realized that it was past 8:00pm, and a Sunday to boot. CLOSED!

After a long night w/o water or waste, I made the 6:00am trip to Lowe's to pick up the new fittings I needed. 2 hours or so later, all was back in place.

Lesson learned...no major work begins late in the day! I'm sure my mother in law has had a great time telling the story of their visit to VA.

...sigh.....

Craig - My two biggest build concerns are plumbing and HVAC. Electrical I think I have a good handle on except for adding a sub-panel and for that I plan on bring someone in to make the final connections. Getting plumbing done and checked is a big releaf. I just need go to a plumbing supply house for the SS Fernco part and I'll be done.

Carbor - Great story! I do feel your pain. I have specifically not started projects on Sunday for fear that I may need a critical part and HD will have closed.

Anyone have any cement mixing tip besides mix outside? There any trade secrets or shortcuts I should know about?

That's great! I too have an "I broke the house" plumbing story. In my case I had re-routed the vast majority of the CPVC water supply lines in my basement. All had gone well, but later when framing walls in an area near the new supply lines I had a framing nail go a bit too close to a water supply line and nick it. Thankfully I was only a few feet from the water shutoff valve, but I was soaked in about 2 seconds, and there was a LOT of water on the floor in the time it took me to jump down off of the ladder I was on and turn off the valve. Thankfully I had the parts on hand to repair it and continue, but I was a little embarrassed up front of my friend who helped that day. :)

-Ryan

The stainless fernco you are referring to is a "no-hub clamp"

It's what is typically used to connect hubless cast iron pipe together.

Tim

Okay. That at leasts helps me ask for the right part. Apparently all I need is the SS sleave wrap part of it. Since there are slit, I should be able to install them without having to wrestle off the fernco fitting I already have installed. I nearly blew out my elbow forcing the damn things on the first time around. (Not kidding - going to the doctor tomorrow since it's not getting better...) If I can't get it separately, I'll buy the whole fitting and just cannibalize the part.

Yeah, I think you have to buy the whole thing. It should fit. The no-hub rubbers are usually a lot thinner "gauge" and have a ridge in the middle so you know when the pipe is seated right.

Did the inspector say you could just add the stainless part?

Tim

Here are the two new values.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb308/mdrueen/IMG_0211.jpg


Consider it a real expensive business card :D

At least you have the number handy next time there is a broken house.

Did the inspector say you could just add the stainless part?
Tim

Yeah, it was his suggestion. I think this is what I'm looking for:
http://www.stant.com/no-hub/graphics/home.jpg
Gonzo - I'm more concerned that it will forever remind my wife... good thing she has a good sense of humor. :D