http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=197

This mean we won't be seeing Fox titles until the fall now?

Not surprising. Not surprising at all. And with a nice bit of irony that some are pirating the Pirates.

But I still pre-ordered the Pirates movies. I've nearly completely stopped buying standard definition DVDs, except for a few old tv shows. I'm waiting for Fox to put out some more blu-ray movies, and waiting, and waiting.

did the pirates bd's have bd+?

AACS should hire the people responsible for cracking their "advanced" access content system.

ah nevermind, this is about the new aacs. this is actually old news. there was a post i made earlier about aacs's new code being cracked b4 the discs even reached consumers.

AACS should hire the people responsible for cracking their "advanced" access content system.

It won't help, as the crackers couldn't design a better content protection system either. The problem is that with enough time and resources, any content protection method is going to be broken. The Internet is full of people with both. The futility is in continuing to foist these content protection schemes on people. They don't work, and the only protection you have against them being cracked are the consequences set forth by the DMCA and ever-increasing punishments for breaking copyright laws.

I still think Fox and others are overreacting to pirating. As stated above, whatever they use for security can and will be broken. It isn't even feasible for the general population to download these huge HD files on the Internet in the event the material becomes available on the net, although that too will change at some point.

The same issues plague DVD, anyone can DL those just about anywhere for free, yet the studios still make plenty of money from the majority of the population that lawfully decides purchase the software.

I understand the studios being concerned, but they're never going to stop piratcy... the smart move is let it happen in that relatively small illegal sector and let the vast majority of the population legally buy the studio's products through traditional formats.

How many people have the space to crack Hi Def movies like regular DVD's? This is overeacting.

Yeah, so it was cracked.. I still dont understand what you can do with a 50GB file now... Nothing as far as i know, am I missing something?

How many people have the space to crack Hi Def movies like regular DVD's? This is overeacting.
well right now you can pick up an external drive for about $130 at frys tahts 500 gigs

but who has the download speed to keep downloading movies like that? not many. but myself i rather have the original downloading it takes all the fun away.

Isn't the dvd already availabe online? Why would this matter, can the market for hi-def actually get any smaller?

I think the best protection against pirating is lower the prices.

Fox charging $40 per movies is crazy.

Yeah, so it was cracked.. I still dont understand what you can do with a 50GB file now... Nothing as far as i know, am I missing something?
When only the video file is ripped, many times it can fit on a dvd-9. You would be suprised how small the video files are on their own without the additional code for playback on players, menus, special features, etc. Not that I've ever seen these things before or anything...

give me original...i hate dvd-r disc looking piece of crap.

I think the best protection against pirating is lower the prices.

Fox charging $40 per movies is crazy.

Fox is releasing movies?!? who knew!?!? :)

Fox is releasing movies?!? who knew!?!? :)


And the Pirates Movies are about $25-$30...other than that, his post was spot on... :D

Well at least Disney is only charging $35 for the Pirates movies.

It won't help, as the crackers couldn't design a better content protection system either. The problem is that with enough time and resources, any content protection method is going to be broken. The Internet is full of people with both. The futility is in continuing to foist these content protection schemes on people. They don't work, and the only protection you have against them being cracked are the consequences set forth by the DMCA and ever-increasing punishments for breaking copyright laws.

I think a big part of the problem is that the key must be included on the optical disc, which means it will always eventually be hacked. You have to control the key. Perhaps issue it to the player from a central computer somewhere. But then this requires a net connection of some sort to the player . That, and it would basically be the Divx system all over.

I'm amazed how accepting consumers have been of DRM protection, but how the totally rejected DIVX. I personally feel that all current HD formats, and even DVD for that matter, are just one step (issuing keys from a studio controlled server, instead of from disc) away from being the same thing DIVX was. This is why I support the format that offers the least amount of DRM.

Hopefully movies will go the way music is starting to, and eventually be DRM free.

DIVX was nothing like DRM.

They will never stop piracy. The best thing to do is lower prices, and this drastically deters people from bothering to copy movies ( not all but the majority of people). They might even make more money from selling larger volumns, lets face it most people will take a chance on an unknown title at $5-$7 dollars for a movie than $15-$20. The record industry definitely needs to follow this advice.

GOD! Studios are just going to say "You know what? SCREW THIS!" and that will be the end of HD on disc. Thank you very much THIEVES! :rolleyes:

It won't help, as the crackers couldn't design a better content protection system either. The problem is that with enough time and resources, any content protection method is going to be broken. The Internet is full of people with both. The futility is in continuing to foist these content protection schemes on people. They don't work, and the only protection you have against them being cracked are the consequences set forth by the DMCA and ever-increasing punishments for breaking copyright laws.
So your solution is that studios should spend hundreds of millions of dollars making a film....then distribute it freely to the populace? :confused:

I'm amazed how accepting consumers have been of DRM protection, but how the totally rejected DIVX. I personally feel that all current HD formats, and even DVD for that matter, are just one step (issuing keys from a studio controlled server, instead of from disc) away from being the same thing DIVX was. This is why I support the format that offers the least amount of DRM.

Hopefully movies will go the way music is starting to, and eventually be DRM free.

Most consumers are not affected by DRM but they would be affected by a player that needs internet access. I think that is the difference.

Let's be clear, THIEVES are FORCING studios to use more and more draconian copy protection. Let's keep the onness where it belongs. No one can blame studios for trying to recoup money on their investments, they why they invested in them in the first place. It's the THIEVES that are screwing it up for everyone.

Somehow this generation got it in their head that they are owed free stuff. I don't know how that happened, maybe they were breast-fed too long. The fact is that we appreciate artists, so we pay them for their work. Stealing things you love is like raping your wife, then wondering why she's angry with you.

Stealing things you love is like raping your wife, then wondering why she's angry with you.
WOWWWW :eek:

WOWWWW :eek:
Too vivid? I just don't understand why people think stealing is just fine and dandy. Fiurthermore they think there's somethign wrong with people who DON'T steal. I was trying to put it in terms people could absorb, maybe make them think about what they are doing.

I stopped loaning DVDs out years ago (to all but a select few, mostly family), because practically everyone would brag about how they ripped them. Apparently watching it once for free wasn't good enough. Essentially I was saving them the $3 rental (or $1 at the library). One guy I knew would even burn movies and give them as gifts! All class.

What kind of a person burns a movie and gives it as a gift? I don't know anyone who would want that as a gift!

GOD! Studios are just going to say "You know what? SCREW THIS!" and that will be the end of HD on disc. Thank you very much THIEVES! :rolleyes:
LOL yeah, way to overreact. Lets see, who really wants to spend HOURS downloading 15+GB worth of an HD movie? Unless you have FiOS, it's going to take a LONG time. Secondly, most people download via torrents, and guess what? It's slow. Most people don't know about Usenet. And do you really think HD movies are more pirated than DVDs? And honestly, what makes you think you can't just rent from NetFlix, or BlockBuster, and copy the HD movie?

How many people think, "That new HD movie is about $5 too much, I think I will download it illegally"? Not many.

Actually, I doubt many people would download movies would purchase it if it were not availiable on the net.

Torrents can be very fast from my experience. Hitting my max download speed of 8.8mbs currently. But I also rarely download any Torrents. I used to do it if I missed a TV show but now most networks offer it online plus it's a last resort anyway. I have no desire to watch anything in SD and with over 275 HD movies I have no desire to illegally copy them.

You all know that DRM is intended to support Business Models and not to prevent Piracy dont you?

Too vivid? I just don't understand why people think stealing is just fine and dandy. Fiurthermore they think there's somethign wrong with people who DON'T steal. I was trying to put it in terms people could absorb, maybe make them think about what they are doing. ... and it was vivid. Not sure if I would have expressed it quite that way. But please know that this HT enthusiast completely agrees with you.

Perhaps it's because I've written music and software and had to protect it. Perhaps it's because I'm a little older. Maybe because I was an Army Brat (square, conservative). Whatever ... it is the THIEVES that are causing this problem. Motion picture production costs a whole lot. And these little snots are sitting around with nothing better to do than crack these protection systems. And it hurts us all.

Hell, if I want a backup copy of a film I BUY TWO OF THEM. It's not my movie! It's not my intellectual property!

I've believed for some time that the film industry should go the way of the PC software business. Each sold copy will be assigned to a particular machine. The NET will allow you to register it on that machine.

And don't worry about that becoming PPV. The competitive market will prevent that. But I'd be happy to put up with only being able to play my disks on my machine.

LOL yeah, way to overreact. Lets see, who really wants to spend HOURS downloading 15+GB worth of an HD movie? Unless you have FiOS, it's going to take a LONG time. Secondly, most people download via torrents, and guess what? It's slow. Most people don't know about Usenet. And do you really think HD movies are more pirated than DVDs? And honestly, what makes you think you can't just rent from NetFlix, or BlockBuster, and copy the HD movie?
5 years ago nobody thought anyone would want to download a DVD. And I'm mostly talking about international pirates like in China who download it once and burn a zillion copies they sell on the street.

You all know that DRM is intended to support Business Models and not to prevent Piracy dont you?
So digital rights management has nothing to do with digital rights management? So how do you explain the fact that digital rights are being managed?

It's doublespeak like this that makes kids shoplift and download CDs on the internet. "It's just a big heartless corporation man! I'm fighting the revolution by being a thief!". Yeah, whatever. :rolleyes:

I've believed for some time that the film industry should go the way of the PC software business. Each sold copy will be assigned to a particular machine. The NET will allow you to register it on that machine.

And don't worry about that becoming PPV. The competitive market will prevent that. But I'd be happy to put up with only being able to play my disks on my machine.
I certainly hope it doesn't come to that. It's a little different with games because how long are you going to play them? Probably a few days, a month at the most.

Movies you watch for years and years. It's quite likely you will eventually change players. It's also much more likely than a video game that you will want to take it to a friend's house.

But I got out of PC games before they started doing that. I was on a Mac anyway so maybe they still don't do that. It was interesting seeing the entire PC resale business evaporate though. I don't want to see that happen to HD discs too.

Its it only me that thinks its real stupid. The companys has movies that in digital form just is a bunh of 0 and 1.

Now they want to protect those 0 and 1 for not comming out to people that dont pays for it. What do they do with all those numbers, they massproduce them and sell to customers. So that secret combination of 0 and 1 is suddenly out in thousands of homes. And they really think that it gonna be possible to hide them there.

Nobody park their car and hide the key behind the tires and strongly believes nobody can find them.

So how could they for real counteract piracy.

1. dont let pirated movies have more advantages then legal copies. Like forcing analog out to 960*540, region coding, strange commercials that you are forced to watch before you can start the movie, lack of subtitles etc

2. Fair price. If you have a monopoly you can take riddiclous high prices for your product. Movie studios have had that advantage for years. Piracy have taken away that monopoly. So they should adapt the prices to an amount that the costumers feel is fair.

3. Quick releases. The same day a movie commes to the theaters, a pirate copy is already out. Counteract that by release the movie worldwide at the same date. Or if they think they can make more profit release the movie on disc the same week. Not everyone goes to the theaters to watch movies.

4. Dont overspend on your movierproduction. If they can give actors 25million$ for a single movie, I say they have some room to play with.

But the truth is the companys do make fine money on movies despite piracy. Just because 50million people download a movie doesnt mean you have 50million people willing to spend money to watch the same movie if they managed to stop piracy. The movies that is the most downloaded is also the most profitable. I would guess most downloaders dont have alot of cash to spend on movies, theaters etc. So even if they manage to stop piracy, their profit wouldnt increase.

1. dont let pirated movies have more advantages then legal copies. Like forcing analog out to 960*540, region coding, strange commercials that you are forced to watch before you can start the movie, lack of subtitles etc
Lot of stuff there, but I don't see any of it as a problem. I like seeing trailers for things I'm looking forward to and if I don't I can always skip them.
2. Fair price. If you have a monopoly you can take riddiclous high prices for your product. Movie studios have had that advantage for years. Piracy have taken away that monopoly. So they should adapt the prices to an amount that the costumers feel is fair.
The customer doesn't get to decide the market. The market decides the market and adjusts if it's not working. The market is working just fine as records are being broken all the time.
3. Quick releases. The same day a movie commes to the theaters, a pirate copy is already out. Counteract that by release the movie worldwide at the same date. Or if they think they can make more profit release the movie on disc the same week. Not everyone goes to the theaters to watch movies.
They tried this with Bubble, it was a disaster. It makes no financial sense. Why would someone see something in the theater if they can just get the DVD instead? The theater doesn't present the appreciable difference in quality it used to. Unless all studios go direct to video, concurrent releasing is a doomsday scenerio. Remember, when all we had was VHS we would wait up to a YEAR to own a film and prior to that our only option was catching it on TV. We've come a long way and there's simply no reason to complain at all.

One adjustment they made was worlwide releasing. It costs them more money and puts more pressure on productions but it eases this problem.
4. Dont overspend on your movierproduction. If they can give actors 25million$ for a single movie, I say they have some room to play with.
Again I blame piracy for this. Studios can't take chances anymore. They need hits and that means paying premiums for special effects and actors that draw audiences. It usually means cliched plotlines too I'm afraid. Why? Because piracy has bled them so badly, particularly in the east.
But the truth is the companys do make fine money on movies despite piracy. Just because 50million people download a movie doesnt mean you have 50million people willing to spend money to watch the same movie if they managed to stop piracy. The movies that is the most downloaded is also the most profitable. I would guess most downloaders dont have alot of cash to spend on movies, theaters etc. So even if they manage to stop piracy, their profit wouldnt increase.
I think most downloaders with multi-thousand dollar equipment that I can't afford, can probably swing $8 at the theater. That's an old and ridiculous excuse that doesn't make any sense. I'm sorry but if you can pay your DSL bill every month, you can afford to see Spidey in the theater.

I think most downloaders with multi-thousand dollar equipment that I can't afford, can probably swing $8 at the theater. That's an old and ridiculous excuse that doesn't make any sense. I'm sorry but if you can pay your DSL bill every month, you can afford to see Spidey in the theater.

It doesnt take multithousand dollar equipment to download. And many that have invested all their money on Computers and DSL bills dont have alot over for buying movies. And movie tickets dont cost 8bucks all over the world. More like 14 over here. Computers is almost standard in everyones homes. They have it even if they download or not.

And many of the downloaders dont own their thousand dollar equipment, their parents do. That doesnt make their parents buy movies for them aswell. Especially movies that hasnt even been released in the stores.

GOD! Studios are just going to say "You know what? SCREW THIS!" and that will be the end of HD on disc. Thank you very much THIEVES! :rolleyes:

It's hard to make money when you aren't selling anything. Methinks it's much ado about nothing. DVD has been totally cracked for quite some time and the releases keep on coming out.

Most consumers are not affected by DRM but they would be affected by a player that needs internet access. I think that is the difference.

But until keys can be removed from discs and distributed via the net, they will ALWAYS be breakable. So the only hope at an iron clad DRM will require access to the internet.

I threw out a radicle idea once for combating music pirace, but no one seemed to like it. I'll let it fly and see what happens here. The same process could apply to films as well, albeit with abit of difference.

There are about 140 million individual Americans filing taxes each year. What if music downloads became government ... (regulated isn't the word I'm looking for, but close) .. sponsored. Each year, the government collected $20 from those 140 million returns and turned it over to the RIAA, totaling $2.8 billion.

In return, the RIAA would maintain an iTunes type site where DRM free MP3's could be downloaded by any US citizen with an account. Catalogs would be kept extremely large and the number of downloads unlimited for every US citizen. A similar system could be implemented in Canada, UK, Europe, Japan, etc if they wanted.

If you can get on the web an download it for free at the source, then there is no need for piracy.

The same could go for movies, but since downloads are larger, it might be harder (DVD's wouldn't be that hard to download now for many). but technology March's forward and download speeds increase yearly, so it may be possible for HD movies a few years down the road.

Its Always Something
LOL

How many people think, "That new HD movie is about $5 too much, I think I will download it illegally"? Not many.

Actually, I doubt many people would download movies would purchase it if it were not availiable on the net.

Heck, this group of people won't even RENT the movie to begin with.

GOD! Studios are just going to say "You know what? SCREW THIS!" and that will be the end of HD on disc. Thank you very much THIEVES!

lol, I always love this fear tactic. the studios are gonna say. "F@ck this!! Lets show those pirates, lets not release ANYTHING!!!!, then they won't pirate our stuff!!! .............Wait a minute".

To be honest with you this is no good for anyone except the thieves.I'm getting really tired of people pirating this stuff because the ones who get punished for it is us.Now it's likely we'll never see any more Fox movies on BRD.If you thought Fox's attitude wsa anal towards BRD before, you haven't seen anything yet.

You know, I haven't really been keeping up with this Fox situation, but if they really think that holding back their movies on Blu-Ray because of piracy is a good move, that's very silly. Why not release them now at a time when its not convienient to download movies and when they can still charge $30-$40 for a new release? Make more profit now before the inevitable future where we do have extremely high download speeds, before everyone has a high def format burner and before the norm for high definition movies are $20 or less? Piracy isn't going to go away and one day DVD will go the way of the VCR. That being said, maybe Fox blaming piracy for not releasing Blu-Ray content is just corporate speak for "Sorry Sony, perhaps we aren't really ready to totally commit just yet. We're going to wait until the format war is over and a majority of people have the winning players in their homes. Until then we are making quite enough money from the much more easy to pirate DVD format".

I threw out a radicle idea once for combating music pirace, but no one seemed to like it. I'll let it fly and see what happens here. The same process could apply to films as well, albeit with abit of difference.

There are about 140 million individual Americans filing taxes each year. What if music downloads became government ... (regulated isn't the word I'm looking for, but close) .. sponsored. Each year, the government collected $20 from those 140 million returns and turned it over to the RIAA, totaling $2.8 billion.

In return, the RIAA would maintain an iTunes type site where DRM free MP3's could be downloaded by any US citizen with an account. Catalogs would be kept extremely large and the number of downloads unlimited for every US citizen. A similar system could be implemented in Canada, UK, Europe, Japan, etc if they wanted.

If you can get on the web an download it for free at the source, then there is no need for piracy.

The same could go for movies, but since downloads are larger, it might be harder (DVD's wouldn't be that hard to download now for many). but technology March's forward and download speeds increase yearly, so it may be possible for HD movies a few years down the road.

Actually they have already put your idea into action here. They have extra tax on CD-r and gives thoose extra money to the music industry. But that doesnt mean its legal. But I think the internet providers could pay some to the companys. That would make it take it more serious.

But in the end. You are not poor if you work in Hollywood.

When only the video file is ripped, many times it can fit on a dvd-9. You would be suprised how small the video files are on their own without the additional code for playback on players, menus, special features, etc. Not that I've ever seen these things before or anything...

dunno what BRDs or even HD DVDs YOU are talking about...i've never seen a main movie under 15-20gb

dunno what BRDs or even HD DVDs YOU are talking about...i've never seen a main movie under 15-20gb

Well KissKissBangBang was about 12. But I havnt seen any that its over 90 minutes and is under 10.

Fox staying out the game isnt that big of a deal unless u bought into bd specifically for fox, but thats the price of being an early adopter. in time they wont have a choice but to release movies (unless bd/hd dies). and in some instances piracy is a good thing for consumers. if it wasnt for piracy id still be paying 20+ dollars for a cd instead being able to buy them for 9.99 on release day. **** i remember paying $4 for a single back in the day, now i can dl from itunes or whatever other service for only 99 cents.

as long as i can play my movies in any player i want, drm doesnt bother me too much

i see piracy as competition. it forces studios to lower prices. is it illegal, ya; but if it'll drop movie prices eventually, i hope they crack every thing that's thrown at them.

lol, I always love this fear tactic. the studios are gonna say. "F@ck this!! Lets show those pirates, lets not release ANYTHING!!!!, then they won't pirate our stuff!!! .............Wait a minute".
You mean like Fox did a couple of months ago? :cool:

So your solution is that studios should spend hundreds of millions of dollars making a film....then distribute it freely to the populace? :confused:

Fett, saying that someone should give away a movie because DRM doesn't work has nothing to do with what I said. As a content creator myself, I believe that people should be compensated for their works.

What I did say is that DRM doesn't work, and it won't work because of the way in which it has to be done for content that they actually want you to view (described accurately by wnorris). You can still sell content without layering it in DRM. CD's have been sold without DRM for 21+ years now (I realize some schemes have been put out, but they are largely defeatable and have suffered consumer backlash), and while there have been fluctuations in the music market, it has not collapsed. Sales are still about as strong as they've ever been, even though the lack of DRM and the ability to transfer songs is much easier than any video content. Even now we see movements by the digital distribution chain (namely iTunes) and record companies (namely EMI) to remove DRM from electronically distributed music. I personally would pay a .25 more per song or $1.50 more per album for unencrypted, DRM-free digital music.

Furthermore, most DVD-ripped content traded by pirates today is re-encoded from MPEG-2 to Divx/MPEG4 of various levels of quality in order to shrink the file size. However, that does not work with HD content unless you want to reduce the quality, which defeats the purpose of viewing HD content to begin with. Also, very, very few people have access to the kind of bandwidth necessary to transfer such large files in any reasonable time frame, so trading in these pirated copies is going to be extremely limited.

As the AACS cracks have shown, DRM doesn't work. Why does the industry continue to delude itself that somehow they will manage to make it work? Just put out your content, and the consumers who have always purchased your content will continue to purchase it, and those who never planned to buy it will continue to steal it or ignore it. At some point the studios have to accept that a certain amount of piracy can and will happen, and instead of implementing annoying measures that alienate some of your consumers, but pose no real challenge to the actual professional pirate.

And let's look at piracy. I believe piracy breaks down into two groups:

1. Your casual 'consumer' level pirates who download stuff to have or watch. Say the last Lost episode, or what have you.
2. Your professional pirates who make their living selling other people's content in legitimate looking packages.

These DRM measures only affect the first group. The second group has the resources to defeat them, if they affect them at all (the didn't and don't when it comes to DVDs), though it is interesting that now in the Internet Age it is a subset of the first group that actually is breaking the content protection schemes to get at the raw content. I believe that is because people want flexibility. Hypothetically, maybe I want to watch Starship Troopers on my PSP while I'm flying for work, but I don't want to spend $20 on a UMD that is of limited use when I already have the DVD that I purchased legally. So maybe I want to convert it from MPEG2 to AVC so I can watch it on my trip. I purchased a copy of the film. I'm not distributing it or giving it to anyone else. I won't even be watching it in more than one location at the same time (thanks to the laws of physics). I simply want to view what I purchased legally while traveling. It's even in a reduced quality format than the original DVD. DRM, specifically CSS, keeps me from doing that, but it doesn't stop a professional pirate from making bit-for-bit copies of legit DVDs and distributing them as the real deal. In that instance, who has DRM hurt?

Even with a phone home system for playback authorization, it's only a matter of time before that mechanism is reverse engineered. You get a large enough sampling of auth keys being sent back, and you'll eventually figure out what's going on. Get enough people working on it together, as we saw on Doom9 with the first AACS cracks, and it doesn't take much at all for a bunch of hobbyists to break it. It would be one thing if they didn't want you to see the content on the disc, but that's exactly what they want you to do. They give you a disc of encrypted content with a decryption key already on it, and at that point it's just a matter of time before someone figures out how the scheme works and how to access the content. Instead of wasting money and resources on technologies that do not work (and which the vast majority of content consumers wouldn't want to circumvent anyway), just sell your content and be done with it.

The studios need to think outside of the box, but can't! Sell the HD disc for under $15.00 or whatever makes it not wothtwhile to pirate such large files. The studios can sell advertising etc. all on the DVD or BD or HD DVD - not what most consumers want, but maybe we'd get some creative ads, who knows. It's becoming obvious that pirating can't be stopped by the studios, so they need to adapt. Instead of embracing change and innovative thinking the studios dig in their heels and continue to fight a losing war - stupid, stupid and more stupid!
This site, for example, doesn't cost me anything to use and yet it generates revenue for the owners in many ways.

Cheers,

Grant