Official Westinghouse TX Series ( TX-42F430S, TX-47F430S ) Owner's Thread [Text View]

huggybear

05-24-07, 12:06 PM

NOTE: We are currently compiling a list of known bugs/problems with the TX line to send off to Westinghouse. Below you will find what we have so far. Please feel free to provide your feedback by posting to the thread.

CONFIRMED ISSUES WITH THE TX SERIES

1) 5.1 DD Via Internal Tuner (Both QAM and OTA)

This must be fixed!! The hardware is clearly capable of passing through 5.1 via the SPDIF out. As I posted earlier, Westinghouse told me to try cycling through the digital audio options (English, Spanish, French) to see if any of those would bring up the 5.1 audio stream. They simply need to add something to the firmware to allow 5.1 to be selected from the digital audio menu if it is present in the broadcast.

2) Lockup Problems

The problem occurs after a boot sequence (such as after a power outage or if you are using energy saver mode). The set simply won't come out of standby (amber light does not go blue). Some have been able to recover by doing the 10 second reboot and ensuring that the input which was last used has a source signal. This happened to my first set and I was not able to recover from it - I had to get a replacement.

3) Frame/Scrawl Judder

From xnappo:

if you tune to a channel with a scrawl running you will see that once every two seconds it appears to drop a frame. Once you see it on the scrawl, you will probably notice the missing frame watching normal TV - especially when the camera pans across the screen... For me, my set always did this with component hooked up from my SA8300HD. With HDMI, it would be fine for a while and then start to drop frames. When I would power off/on the set, it would go away for a while.

From bhazard:

I have seen this through VGA and HDMI. It is easily noticeable in Guitar Hero with the scrolling bar. The bar would skip frames every 2 seconds....It is fixable with the 10 sec power reboot. I have no idea how to re-create it, but when it does happen I just do the reboot and it goes away. It is not very often though.

4) HDMI Flickering/Dropouts

There are numerous reports of flickering and dropouts when using an HDMI source, particularly the PS3 but problems with the SA 8300 HD cable box and Sony upscaling DVD player have also been reported. The assumption is that there is a problem with the HDCP authentication.

5) HDMI Hub (all HDMI inputs sharing the same setting)

All 4 HDMI inputs share the same user settings. Westinghouse has indicated that this is due to the 4 HDMI inputs being on a hub, hence it is really only 1 input. There is a possibility that each HDMI input can still have its own settings if the firmware is updated.

6) EPG

The EPG could use some work. First, it doesn't appear to have a cache so it does not hold very much data. I personally don't receive any data except from NBC while using QAM - not sure if this is an issue with the set or if all the other stations simply aren't transmitting guide data. Here are some more problems as reported by meltdown100:

To add what I have seen with the EPG issue, for me it is working for all of my OTA channels, but in a somewhat crippled fashion. I can only see the program schedule for any given channel when I am tuned in to that particular channel, everything else comes up blank. Another minor annoyance with this is that the EPG does not come up for the channel you are currently viewing, which would make sense, rather it comes up for whatever the last channel was that you looked up on the EPG.

7) Dynamic Contrast Cannot Be Disabled

Even though you can turn off the Dynamic Contrast Feature via the menu, it appears that it is never truly disabled. I have the setting off myself and I do still notice automatic contrast shifts when going from bright to dark scenes.

8) Audio Dynamic Range Compression Cannot Be Disabled

From superh:

The audio dynamic range compression feature cannot be disabled. It is always on. What it does essentially is normalize audio so that there aren't large volume differences between commercials/programs and channels. I would like to be able to disable that sometimes. It would be nice for those times where the TV content is musical.

You'll hear it sometimes when a station starts off really quiet and gets louder in volume (or vice versa - when you tune to a "loud" station and the TV drops in volume). It's within the television for sure, since I've ran PC audio through it while playing a game and can confirm that when the audio plays, the sound effects in the game disappear. When the audio goes silent between songs, the game audio gets louder.

--------------------------

This thread is for discussion directly related to the new Westinghouse TX Series, specifically the TX-42F430S and TX-47F430S. I did not include the TX-52F480S as it is not due out until the fall, and it differs from its smaller cousins in more than just panel size. For discussion not directly related to the TX-42 and TX-47, such as anticipation of the TX-52, please see the original Westinghouse TX Series (TX-42F430s, TX-47F430s, TX-52F480s) Anticipation Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=828932). This thread contains a wealth of information about Westinghouse, the upcoming TX-52, and LCD displays in general.

Please - no price talk as it is against forum rules. Also, be aware that not everyone who comes to this forum wears a propellerhead cap. All Westinghouse owners are encouraged to post their opinions and there are no stupid questions. Of course, it is always a good idea to use search to see if your particular question has already been addressed elsewhere.

Enjoy the thread !!

Important Links

Westinghouse TX-42F430S Product Page (http://www.wde.com/details.aspx?itemnum=125)
Westinghouse TX-42F430S Manual (http://www.wde.com/pdf/125_User_Manual.pdf)
Westinghouse TX-47F430S Product Page (http://www.wde.com/details.aspx?itemnum=126)
Westinghouse TX-47F430S Manual (http://www.wde.com/pdf/126_User_Manual.pdf)

Useful Warranty Information from sharkcohen

For those sending in their set for warranty service/replacement: do not bother with tech support after you have sent in your set. Tech support cannot directly answer questions regarding status updates on RMAs, and they have to put in a status request to 'corporate', and then call you back in 3-5 days with an answer. Good luck with that, they usually never call back. Instead, directly call the center you sent your set to. If you send to Santa Fe Springs, CA, the number for their facility is 562-236-9800. Just tell the operator that you want to get a status on your RMA, the person will direct you to their RMA department, who I have found to be VERY friendly and helpful.

ALSO OF NOTE: Westinghouse tech support/customer service is NOT Westinghouse, it is a large outsource company called microdyne, www.microdyne.com Considering they are just a call center, I would NOT bother trying to get them to answer questions regarding firmware updates or known issues. These people know nothing more than what Westinghouse tells them.

Review from Cnet:

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-and-plasma/westinghouse-tx-47f430s/4505-6482_7-32429415.html

Specifications (copied from the Westinghouse site):

TX-42F430S Specifications

Display Specifications

Viewable Screen Size 42" Diagonal
Aspect Ratio 16:9
Native/Optimum Resolution 1920 x 1080
Color Capability 16.7 Million colors

Connectors

QTY TYPE

1 Antenna In (RF)

1 Video/S-Video In

2 YPbPr In

4 HDMI + 1 L/R

1 D-Sub (VGA) In

1 PC Audio In (mini)

4 Audio In (dual RCA)

1 Audio Out (dual RCA)

1 SPDIF Optical Out

1 AC Power In

EDIT: They forgot to mention a very important input - there is a USB port for firmware updates !!

Compatible Modes

NTSC 480i

HDTV 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p

PC SVGA, XGA, SXGA, HD 720, HD 1080

Clear QAM

Picture

Contrast Ratio 1000:1

Color Gamut 75% NTSC

Lamp Life 50,000 Hrs

Viewing Angle 176° Horizontal 176° Vertical

Response Time 8 ms

Video Features

Preset Video Modes - Enhanced/Movie/Game/Sports

Screen Fit Modes - Standard/Fill/Overscan

Progressive Scan

3D Noise Reduction

Inverse 3:2 Pulldown

De-Interlacing

3D Adaptive Comb Filter

2D OSD Graphics Engine

Selectable Color Temperature - 3 User Adjustable

Advanced Calibration Menu

Dynamic Contrast

Convenience Features

Autosource™

SpineDesign™

DayBright™ - High contrast LCD for both day and night

Parental Control

Sleep Timer

Dimensions and Weight

42.2" x 29.0 " x 10.5 " (with Base)
68.1 lbs (with Base)
42.2" x 27.0 " x 5.5 " (w/o Base)
61.1 lbs (w/o Base)
46.1" x 33.3 " x 11.5 " (carton dimensions)
79.1 lbs (carton weight)

Audio

2-10 watt speakers

10 watt Subwoofer

Down Firing

User Adjustable 5 Band Equalizer

Cabinet Color

Black/Dark Silver

Installation Options

8 Hole Pattern

75mm x 75mm VESA® Pattern

100mm x 100mm VESA® Pattern wall mounts

Warranty

Westinghouse Digital Electronics warrants their LCD TVs against defects in materials or workmanship for a period of one (1) year from the original date of purchase.

TX-47F430S Specifications:

Same as above, except for:

Display Specifications

Viewable Screen Size 47" Diagonal

Dimensions and Weight

48.2" x 31.5" x 10.5" (with Base)
71.6 lbs (with Base)
48.2" x 29.5" x 5.5" (w/o Base)
64.6 lbs (w/o Base)
50.5" x 36.1" x 11.5" (carton dimensions)
83.6 lbs (carton weight)

huggybear

05-24-07, 12:09 PM

As of yesterday 5/23/07, the TX-47 has started appearing at Best Buy. A few of us were fortunate enough to snag what appears to be the only units that were sent to the stores to be used as display models!

I am calling this "initial impressions" as opposed to a review as unfortunately I do not have the time right now to do more extensive tests. Figures that I wait 2 months for this set, with plenty of free time on my hands, and then it manages to show up right when I am swamped with work and preparing for a long weekend! So I apologize in advance and promise to post more results next week.

On to the impressions...

1) The box/packaging. I thought it would be bigger. It almost completely fit in the trunk of my Honda Civic with the rear seat down (would have gone in all the way if it wasn't for about 2" of plastic mouldings on each side). I guess this is due to the way it was packaged. When I opened her up I was shocked - I was expecting the unit to be enclosed in a styrafoam coffin... instead, all that was protecting this gem was 4 pieces of plastic moulding, one for each corner. There is absolutely nothing in between the screen and the box, except space. Now granted, the mouldings did a fine job of protecting it, but anything could pierce the box and directly hit the screen. I would be scared silly if UPS were delivering this package.

2) First look at the TV. Jaw-dropping. Absolutely beautiful. I wouldn't change a thing. In the pictures the bottom stripe appeared more "silvery". This thing is one black beauty. I can guarantee that anyone who sees it wil complement it. The WAF (Wife Approval Factor) is through the roof.

I totally underestimated the size - this TV is BIG!! Here I was thinking I was eventually going to get the TX-52 when it came out and move the 47 to the bedroom. Not going to happen. I realize now that the 52 would be too big for me. This 47 completely covers my stand (the edges of the TV go right to the edge of the stand).

As far as weight, I found the TV very easy to manhandle. I do lift weights regularly but I don't think any man would have a problem moving this thing around. Definitely not a 2 person required task.

3) Setup. I pluged in a cable delivering QAM into the RF input and then the power cord. WARNING - the TV turns on instantly and the volume is loud - have your remote ready! I was so relieved when this thing powered up and automatically tuned to a cable channel!!! So far so good.

By now it was about ten to nine and the season finale of Lost was coming on... I quickly inititiated the channel auto-scan. This took a while - it finished around 5 after nine so I missed the beginning of Lost. The annoyance quickly disappeared as I entered the QAM channel code for ABC in my area and Lost in glorious high defnition filled the screen. It was at that moment my permagrin set in and it hasn't gone away since.

4) First impression of the picture. To summarize in 1 word - stunning! It was absolutely beautiful - the quality will drop anyone's jaw. Keep in mind this is NOT my first HD set. I started in the world of HD around 5 years ago with a 400lb Toshiba rear projection set. After that I ran a Sanzyo Z2 720p front projector. I have also seen various units at friend's houses and my parents have a 720p Samsung LNS4692. I can honestly say that the picture surpassed any other set I have ever seen. Granted, I have never seen a high end Samsung/Sony/Mits/Sharp in person, but I do not believe the improvement in quality (IF ANY!) on those sets could justify the hundreds if not thousands of dollars more in price.

I flipped between Lost (broadcast in 720p) and American Idol (broadcast in 1080i). American Idol definitely looked better, but I don't think this is due to 720p vs 1080i content - I believe it is the actual cameras that they use. I can't wait to see 1080p on this baby!!

I did not see any flaws in the picture - no dead pixels, clouds, bands, ghosts, sceptres, ghouls whatever other weird flaws people have named. I don't plan on running and test patterns though - if I don't see it during normal viweing, I don't want to know about it!

I did notice some red push in the factory default settings, but I am 100% confident that I will be able to tweak this set using AVIA and my THX optimizer disc to my complete satisfaction.

5) Sound. I thought the sound from the set was quite good. The subwoofer is turned on by default so it was quite basey. I have a THX certified Logitech surround sound system so I hooked up an optical cable via the SPDIF output....

POTENTIAL PROBLEM - I am almost certain that Lost is broadcast in 5.1 in my area. My audio receiver only detected 2 channels being passed from the Westy. I was under the impression that the Westy would pass through the digital bitstream untouched. I am scared that it only passes 2 channels. I looked at the audio settings but there was nothing that addressed this.

PLEASE someone prove me wrong! If you can only obtain 2 channels via the SPDIF output that would be a bummer!

6) Last thoughts. Again, I apologize for not being able to do a more thorough review. I have a Nintendo Wii here and a PS3 and can't wait to test 1080p on this thing. I promise I will provide more details and pictures next week. All I can say is that this TV was well worth the wait. If I had to use a car analogy, I would compare this TV to a Corvette. Sure, it might not be as fancy and expensive as a European sports car, but you simply cannot get more bang for your buck - AND, it will turn heads everytime!!

huggybear

Mikeoz

05-24-07, 12:44 PM

One strange discrepancy I've noticed between the manual and westy web page is that the 47" according to the manual says it's 80 lbs w/ the base, and the webpage says 71lbs.. I know this isn't a big deal to most people, but I'm using a smallish audio stand to hold the tv w/ the components underneath..

I wonder which one is correct. It's certainly not easy for anyone to simply measure it, but if anyone knows which one is correct I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

DynStatic

05-24-07, 12:44 PM

My Mini review.

I was able to pick up this TV last night thanks to the BB item number. I also got 12% off.

The first thing I did after unpacking was to hook up my MacBook Pro to it via VGA. It instantly picked up full 1920x1080@60 resolution with no fuss. It supports many other resolutions also. Output was from DVI with VGA adapter and a sub par VGA cable. Text on web pages was very clear and readable. However, due to the sub par vga cable I had, I did notice lots of phase jitters. I have a high quality VGA cable (Belkin F3H982-06, double shielded) and a DVI-HDMI cable that I'm going to test with tonight.

I did play xbox 360 at full 1080p via component, I have the VGA cable. I will test that and Wii at 480p via component also tonight.

I did pick up 22 QAM HD channels over Comcast. 1080i and 720p.

I'm going to look into Dynamic contrast and custom picture modes per input tonight if someone doesn't beat me to it.

jbradg

05-24-07, 12:55 PM

flabioh

05-24-07, 02:14 PM

Huggybear... I agree, if the digital audio from the Westy isn't at least 5.1 (for my setup) I'm not going to be happy. I was planning to use the TV as my A/V switcher with all those inputs and just leave my receiver on one setting to play the audio from the TV.

I can't imagine the output is not 5.1. What would be the use of the digital output? You can just as easily run 2 channel analog to the reciever. Seems like it would be a waste of space.

TLJester

05-24-07, 02:25 PM

I just tried my Xbox 360 with VGA, and the Westinghouse displayed 1080p with that.
Though my cable is a 3rd party one, and the image ghosts a bit. Component was much better (due to cable).

huggybear

05-24-07, 02:40 PM

I can't imagine the output is not 5.1. What would be the use of the digital output? You can just as easily run 2 channel analog to the reciever. Seems like it would be a waste of space.

I have a feeling that Lost was not broadcast in 5.1 last night (at least not by my ABC affiliate).

I will test tonight when a rerun of CSI comes on - I know for a fact that is broadcast in 5.1.

jbradg

05-24-07, 02:43 PM

I have a feeling that Lost was not broadcast in 5.1 last night (at least not by my ABC affiliate).

I will test tonight when a rerun of CSI comes on - I know for a fact that is broadcast in 5.1.

I'll also try it from my new DVD player connected via HDMI tonight.

aindik

05-24-07, 04:45 PM

I flipped between Lost (broadcast in 720p) and American Idol (broadcast in 1080i). American Idol definitely looked better, but I don't think this is due to 720p vs 1080i content - I believe it is the actual cameras that they use. I can't wait to see 1080p on this baby!!

American Idol should be in 720p. That is Fox's resolution of choice. Your affiliate might be broadcasting in 1080i, but that wouldn't really make sense, as the network is a 720p network.

POTENTIAL PROBLEM - I am almost certain that Lost is broadcast in 5.1 in my area. My audio receiver only detected 2 channels being passed from the Westy. I was under the impression that the Westy would pass through the digital bitstream untouched. I am scared that it only passes 2 channels. I looked at the audio settings but there was nothing that addressed this.

PLEASE someone prove me wrong! If you can only obtain 2 channels via the SPDIF output that would be a bummer!

Are you sure there wasn't a setting to choose between PCM and AC-3 sound? My Westinghouse 32w6 had one, and I didn't get 5.1 until I chose AC-3.

aindik

05-24-07, 04:46 PM

I'll also try it from my new DVD player connected via HDMI tonight.

That probably won't work. I don't think these TVs pass 5.1 audio that they receive from HDMI. I think they only pass 5.1 audio from their own tuners.

LynxFX

05-24-07, 05:06 PM

Shouldn't it be TX-42F430S and TX-47F430S? It might confuse people who copy and paste for searching purposes. ;)

flabioh

05-24-07, 06:17 PM

American Idol should be in 720p. That is Fox's resolution of choice. Your affiliate might be broadcasting in 1080i, but that wouldn't really make sense, as the network is a 720p network.

Are you sure there wasn't a setting to choose between PCM and AC-3 sound? My Westinghouse 32w6 had one, and I didn't get 5.1 until I chose AC-3.

Hmm... looking through the online manual there isn't any setting like this. However, there is three audio options:

• Mono
• Stereo
• SAP

This would be very depressing if that was all there was. The only glimpse of hope from the user manual is that it has a section in the audio menu listed as "Digital Audio - Enables language selection for digital channels" which leads me to believe that it would be picking up the digital audio and (one would assume) pass this on to the receiver.

I think this would be a deal breaker for me if it doesn't pass 5.1 audio.

Emonroe

05-24-07, 06:24 PM

Can someone confirm HDMI 1.2 on these sets?

Ohgami

05-24-07, 06:36 PM

I have 2 Questions. I'm really curious how good the Trident Chip in these.
1. Hows the Deinterlacing of 1080i input (compared to the DCDi used in the LVM-W series)?
2. How's the Upscaling of 480i/480p to 1080p (compared to the DCDi used in the LVM-W series)?

Xcalibur_255

05-24-07, 06:43 PM

That's the question of the hour. When Audioholics or Cnet tests one we'll know for sure.

g stylin

05-24-07, 06:49 PM

Does anyone know if PIP is/ isn't available on this set?

jbradg

05-24-07, 06:56 PM

stoked

05-24-07, 07:27 PM

Well, when I first connected up my receiver to the digital audio port on the TV, I put a DVD (Matrix) into my Samsung 1080p upconvert DVD player, and I could only get L and R audio. However, when I changed the audio out on the DVD player from PCM to Bitstream, it worked. I have a Sony receiver that's about 6 years old.

I get my TWC HD DVR on Sunday. Hopefully the audio works correctly with it.

That makes sense. PCM would be decoded in the TV into seperate PCM channels. The TV would need to have a DD5.1 decoder built-in. Bitstream would pass the DD5.1 bitstream undecoded to the AVR. Looks like you won't be able to pass DD+ or TrueHD but I guess that's expected.

jbradg

05-24-07, 07:35 PM

That makes sense. PCM would be decoded in the TV into seperate PCM channels. The TV would need to have a DD5.1 decoder built-in. Bitstream would pass the DD5.1 bitstream undecoded to the AVR. Looks like you won't be able to pass DD+ or TrueHD but I guess that's expected.

What I found odd is the same thing happened when I directly connected the optical out from the DVD player to my receiver. Could it be the age of my receiver and not being able to decode the PCM signal from this newer DVD player?

stoked

05-24-07, 08:34 PM

What I found odd is the same thing happened when I directly connected the optical out from the DVD player to my receiver. Could it be the age of my receiver and not being able to decode the PCM signal from this newer DVD player?

I think it's more to do with what the output/input devices can handle. For example, when I was shopping for a AVR, I made sure it supported 5.1 PCM input up to 24-bit/192khz for TrueHD. I think most AVR's do anyhow. On the other end, if you're going to decode and pass PCM to your AVR, then your output device needs to have a DD5.1 decoder. Some DVD players don't, but I assume most current ones do. So in short, if you want to pass PCM to your receiver, your output device needs to have a DD5.1 decoder and your receiver needs to accept multi-channel PCM.

BENZONATE

05-25-07, 04:48 AM

LEFT SIDE: TX-47F430s (VGA input) ~ / ~ RIGHT SIDE: LVM-47w1 (DVI input)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/189/513126163_41cf14a3bf_b.jpg

DVI INPUT ON THE LVM-47w1 is BRILLIANT and completely CRYSTAL CLEAR(true 1:1 pixel mapping). The TX line is without any DVI inputs.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/207/513036334_18e6e9fc5c_b.jpg

VGA on both (LVM & TX series)~(see the left panel as it is set at 100% backlight and still not as bright as the DVI output.)
They are both producing exact results via VGA input(text blur(red smear), slight ghosting, smudged look in comparison

TX REMOTE: The TX line remote functions(most of them), work on the LVM series:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/215/513071967_74ed1e5b6c_b.jpghttp://farm1.static.flickr.com/217/513125817_86245078d1_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/229/513073947_8194b41b8f_b.jpg

BENZONATE

05-25-07, 05:24 AM

THE MENU:

VIDEO:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/227/513078712_c1c6765710_b.jpg

DISPLAY:

"PIP" = This "may" be enabled by adding multiple inputs.
The LVM-47w1 series will allow "CERTAIN" inputs as the PIP option.

For example:
If you are using a DVI input, you may select: PIP/PBP/POP with any input except: Another YPbBR1/2, DVI or HDMI input as your PIP or P?P.
You may select A/V, S-Video, Composite, etc for your P?P alternatives.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/193/513113051_5050298704_b.jpg

TV:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/197/513077750_d68d3e9bb1_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/218/513114879_0ae2c2232b_b.jpg

AUDIO:

"MIXED" = USE OF INTERNAL & EXTERNAL SPEAKERS TOGETHER. The LVM-47w1 series will either "INTERNAL" or "EXTERNAL", but not the use of both at the same time.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/200/513112423_e1ff59b3f2_b.jpg

POWER:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/211/513112085_e92c6d8d16_b.jpg

SETTINGS:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/195/513112019_ff50d05c7f_b.jpg

"USER CALIBRATION = YES", you receive this calibration menu

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/223/513080002_638a5794d6_b.jpg

Two questions immediately on my mind are: dynamic contrast feature going to be user

defeatable?

YES IT IS: AS WELL AS:

~Deinterlace (on/off)
~3D Comb Filter (on/off)
~Dynamic Contrast (on/off)
~Color Temp for presets (Warm / Neutral / Cool ) - These have individual R.G.B. settings for each setting, that are stored in memory.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/201/513081084_8a1a3b834a_b.jpg

"USER CALIBRATION = YES" and you receive this screen for all

the adjustments you would find in the service menu(LVM-47w1) and more:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/209/513115845_88644f3f86_b.jpg

BENZONATE

05-25-07, 06:36 AM

The contrast number itself is worthless, but it helps me place whether

these are CMO's latest panels or continuing runs from last year with the newer backlight.

Hello Xcalibur_255,
I can verify, by having these next to each other, that they are in fact two different panels.

SPECS(VISUAL):

LVM-47w1:

USING A BLACK SCREEN on both(LVM & TX) and looking towards the center of the panel from one side of each panel:

The LVM carries what looks to be a slightly tighter pixel with a slight RED / PINK 'ish tint, or red washout to the panel.
This tint is definately noticable in comparison to the TX Panel, while looking at it from an extreme viewing angle
(i.e. either end of the panel, looking towards the center).

~LVM PANEL (TIGHT PIXELS HERE WITH A SLIGHT TINT)
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/230/513119037_6a683a3c2f_b.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/222/513119785_b33a3479d6_b.jpg

~TX PANEL
~YOU CAN SEE THE SLIGHT SCREEN DOOR WHEN YOUR NOSE IS UP AGAINST THE PANEL.
TX PANEL: (not necessarily LARGER PIXELS, but pixels with a slightly different shape. These pixels look like tightly packed layers of "CCCCCC". Where the LVM panel has a more square pixel shape.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/199/513083728_f57d8730a9_b.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/196/513084264_11d2a7bdc9_b.jpg

STATS ON BOTH (TX & LVM) & MY IMPRESSIONS:

LVM-47w1 COMPARED TO THE TX-47F430s:

PANEL FINISH (observed with both units powered off):

LVM PANEL: Dull Matte finish that looks more grey next to the TX-47F430s. When powered on, a very soft pinkish tint is noticable(but only when compared to the "whiter/cleaner" black TX panel.
TX PANEL: Slight gloss on a matte finish that produce a slightly blacker darker(a good black) panel. When powered on, this panel looks more neutral(white) showing the backlight(not bleeding, mura, sparkles, etc).

PIXELS:

LVM PANEL: TIGHTER PIXELS. (the LVM panel has a more square pixel shape.)
TX PANEL: (not necessarily LARGER PIXELS, but pixels with a slightly different shape. These pixels look like tightly packed layers of "CCCCCC". Where the LVM panel has a more square pixel shape.

COLOR DEPTH via Component input(HD CABLE/SD DVD) :

LVM PANEL: Color depth looks a bit washed out in comparison to the TX, which also produces better blacks(with and without the Dynamic Contrast turned on).
TX PANEL: Better blacks , starting with the panel powered off. Also, Excellent Color Depth & richness. The TX menu is equipped with a fully adjustable R.G.B. for each preset & User settings. Very nice indeed!

*NOTE*: LVM-47w1: Colors via DVI-DVI/DVI-HDMI look amazing and vibrant.
I cannot check DVI on the TX(the TX is not equipped with DVI input)

*(SEE UPDATE BELOW)* MOTION BLUR VIA COMPONENT INPUT ON BOTH (LVM & TX):

LVM PANEL: Excellent response time, minimal if any motion blur or tearing in DVD, HD Cable or Gaming. The LVM *SHINES* in this area.
TX PANEL: Strangely, I do see motion blur, as if steam rising off the road in the distance, in some instances. Slightly garbled, distorted, mabye slower response times(twist), hmmm..this needs more attention. HD does not look the same on the TX as it does on the LVM Panel(which looks stunning). The source is the same as the LVM. I will follow up on this.

**UPDATE**

THE HD SOURCE PROBLEM & MOTION BLUR:
~COX EXPLORER 3250HD was set to "ZOOM" in the settings and I had to adjust the "SCREEN SIZE" to "WIDESCREEN" as well. Still tweaking but the TX "FILL" & "OVERSCAN" options just made SD Cable look much better.

DEFECTS: (MURA/FLASHLIGHTING/SPARKLES/BANDING/ETC)

LVM PANEL: ZERO DEFECTS(NONE AT ALL)
TX PANEL:

~TX LINE DEFECTS~

~ There are 4 stuck pixels on the TX that you cannot see unless you are nose to panel(seriously). I attempted to even capture them on camera..without success..I'll try to post pictures when I have them.

~These pixels sparkle(red/green) as I swoop across the panel, looking for others. At 2 feet away, I strain to find them again. Not an issue, but the LVM has 0 stuck, dead pixels.

~Possible backlight BLEEDING from the bottom left corner/FLASHLIGHTING/ MURA? I am not sure as it may have been pressure while in transport.

**NOTE** THIS IS IN NO WAY A PROBLEM. IT IS *ONLY* VISABLE WITH A COMPLETELY BLACK SCREEN(and you have to look for it).

TX DEFECTS(left monitor)?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/211/513118499_2333720bc9_b.jpg

MY PIXEL EXPERIENCE:

LVM-47w1:

~0 DEAD/STUCK PIXELS
~INCREDIBLE DVI-DVI/DVI-HDMI 1:1 PIXEL MAPPING & COLORS VIA COMPUTER TO LVM. (SEE PICTURE BELOW)
~ VGA-VGA(LVM) = SLIGHT BLUR IN TEXT and GENERAL COMPUTER USE.
~ WHITES are not as BRILLIANT via VGA, but it is bright and easy to use/game.
~VGA does not compare to the quality and brilliance(whites) of DVI...IT JUST DOESN'T in my experiences with both (TX & LVM).

1:1 PIXEL MAPPING VIA DVI-DVI(MOST EXCELLENT & I HOPE THE TX-47F430s CAN MATCH THE COMPUTER MONITOR PERFORMANCE OF THE LVM-47w1)

**UPDATE**

~IT DOES & ADDS DEEPER/RICHER COLORS & EXCELLENT EXTREME ANGLE VIEWING WITHOUT THE COLOR/RED WASHOUT OF THE LVM-47w1. NOTE: The LVM is an excellent monitor that only exhibits this red washout when you stand at one end while viewing the center. It is a truly excellent monitor!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/198/513095894_0d3567c0af_b.jpg

If the case is the latter we can expect very similar PQ to the existing

LVM-47w1 with better color reproduction being the only notable improvement.

~Better picture quality is certain. The TX line motion blur(dynamic contrast either on or off = same) & HD comparison with the LVM series is a concern, as the LVM holds its own and looks beautiful(yet, without the color depth and the various upgrades of the TX).

Also, I need to access HDMI-DVI input to the TX. A PROBLEM, as VGA carries the TEXT BLUR(see picture below) on both (TX & LVM). HDMI HDCP? The video cards have HDCP on chip. Hmmm..The GO 7800 GTX would not port via DVI to the LVM, but both of my GO 7800 did so very well. Now the TX won't accept any input via DVI-HDMI without creating an NVIDIA profile based on the LVM-47w1(i have to plug in the LVM, create the profile, unplug LVM & plug in the DVI-HDMI on the TX and finally...1:1 pixel mapping, deeper colors & beautiful. On any of the 4 HDMI(note: HDMI 1 is the only one with RCA audio input, the other 3 are just HDMI connectors, so I thought HDMI 1 would accept PC input).

VGA(TX & LVM) TEXT BLUR(RED SHIFT):
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/220/513129941_d86a89a132_b.jpg

There are many new TX features and tweaking has begun. Collaboration is the key to success, as everyone on this forum (and the LVM-47w1 & TX anticipation thread) have provided excellent information. Educated and informed decisions = permagrin. And permagrin for all.

~b3nz0n8

BENZONATE

05-25-07, 06:38 AM

TX-47F430s ~ LVM-47w1 SIDE BY SIDE:

SLIDE SHOW OF PICTURES FROM LAST NIGHT(MORE TO COME):

CLICK THIS LINK:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8555668@N08/show/

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/224/513079684_9004d83e45_b.jpg

flabioh

05-25-07, 06:41 AM

Wow! Thank you very much for the menu pictures. Can you clarify the PIP? Does it actually work on the TX? Can you select any other input to be the PIP or only certain ones?

darkninja67

05-25-07, 06:54 AM

Thanks for the pics and the write up BENZONATE. The TX looks to have some screen uniformity issues, judging by the TX defects shot. I am hoping it can be adjusted out through the settings.

jbradg

05-25-07, 07:39 AM

Thanks for the detailed post Benzonate. I look forward to any adjustments to the defaults you find work best. I too have noticed some motion blur, but I'm not sure it's significant enough for me to return the unit. I do find our local news produced and broadcast in 1080i to look outstanding... flesh tone colors, etc. I get my TWC HD DVR on Sunday so I'll have 2 HDMI sources connected. I want to try the autosource feature to see if I'm happy with it as having to press the input select button multiple times to cycle through all the inputs is a pain.

huggybear

05-25-07, 08:05 AM

Shouldn't it be TX-42F430S and TX-47F430S? It might confuse people who copy and paste for searching purposes. ;)

Thanks for pointing this out - I completely gapped the "F" !! I guess my head's still in a haze from the excitement :)

I will change what I can but I don't believe users can change a thread's title after it is posted so I will ask a mod to do so.

huggybear

05-25-07, 08:14 AM

Ok, last night a rerun of CSI was on... I know for a fact that CSI is delivered with 5.1 DD over QAM in my area.

I have an optical cable going from the SPDIF out on the TX-47 feeding a Logitech audio receiver... the logitech displays the technical details of the signal it is receiving....

Once again, the SPDIF passthrough is only sending 2 channels.

There are absolutely no audio settings in the menu that can address this.

I was under the impression that the TX would simply pass through the raw audio bitstream (leaving the decoding to your audio receiver).

It appears that it downsamples it to 2 channel stereo and then passes that through.

Someone else with QAM or OTA please test this and either confirm (or hopefully discredit) my findings.

If this is the case, it is a real bummer. But is this something that can be changed with a firmware update??

huggybear

05-25-07, 08:22 AM

Ok, I took some more pictures last night. For TV viewing, I am completely relying on the built-in tuner, not just for digital QAM but yes, even analog!! There are a few channels that I will be watching in plain old analog 480i and I must say I am very surprised - the quality is not bad at all! Far better than my parent's Samsung LNT4092. This of course could be due to the signal that the local cable co is sending but all I can say is I am very satisfied. I am watching CNN Headline News right now and from my viewing distance I can honestly say that I do not see a single flaw!

I have attached a couple of pcitures - I thought the second one might get a laugh :)

huggybear

05-25-07, 08:26 AM

Last night I hooked up my Playstation 3 and picked up a copy of Ridge Racer 7 which is a 1080p game. I can honestly say that I have never seen a better image on a display in my life. It was absolutely mind-blowing! I couldn't even play the game because I was too engrossed in the images.

I am attaching a couple of shots - trust me, they don't do it justice!

DarkDogg

05-25-07, 08:48 AM

Were there any HDCP handshaking issues with the PS3 and this model?

jbradg

05-25-07, 08:50 AM

jbradg

05-25-07, 08:53 AM

nibbs159

05-25-07, 08:55 AM

jbradg

05-25-07, 09:05 AM

Huggybear, thank you for all of your updates. I am also interested in ps3 compatibility. I'm in the process of having my LVM-42w2 replaced through the BB extended warrantee. I have an older LVM purchased 06/2006, firmware 1.16. I was getting sparkle on DVI2 and HDMI with the ps3 in 1080p. Last night I updated the ps3 to firmware 1.80 and tested DVI2. It sparkled for a second every time the set switched to1080p but then the sparkle seemed to go away. Still major handshaking issues though. I have to switch inputs away from and back to the ps3 almost every time it changes screen resolutions.

Have you experienced any sparkle or handshaking issues with your ps3 over hdmi? I'm really hoping this is the set to replace my faulty LVM-42w2. Thank you for all the updates. Hopefully I can assist with the testing discussion soon ;)

Nibbs, have you had a good experience with the BB warranty on your TV so far? I purchased the 4 year with mine too.

huggybear

05-25-07, 09:09 AM

Huggybear, thank you for all of your updates. I am also interested in ps3 compatibility. I'm in the process of having my LVM-42w2 replaced through the BB extended warrantee. I have an older LVM purchased 06/2006, firmware 1.16. I was getting sparkle on DVI2 and HDMI with the ps3 in 1080p. Last night I updated the ps3 to firmware 1.80 and tested DVI2. It sparkled for a second every time the set switched to1080p but then the sparkle seemed to go away. Still major handshaking issues though. I have to switch inputs away from and back to the ps3 almost every time it changes screen resolutions.

Have you experienced any sparkle or handshaking issues with your ps3 over hdmi? I'm really hoping this is the set to replace my faulty LVM-42w2. Thank you for all the updates. Hopefully I can assist with the testing discussion soon ;)

Sorry - I forgot to mention - absolutely ZERO problems with HDMI and PS3. Worked flawlessly - no handshaking issues, no sparkles, just a perfect image (and sound!).

I plugged the hdmi cable into a brand new PS3 which was never booted before. The TX was powered on and sitting and HDMI 1. I turned on the PS3 and the image appeared instantly (in 480i). The PS3 asked me if I would like to optimize the resolution. Bang - image fills the screen and the TX reports a 1080p signal.

perplext

05-25-07, 10:01 AM

nibbs159

05-25-07, 10:16 AM

Nibbs, have you had a good experience with the BB warranty on your TV so far? I purchased the 4 year with mine too.

jbradg, it hasn't been too bad. I've had to make a few phone calls and wait a few days for things but that's to be expected I suppose.

I originally called BB service regarding the sparkle and lockup issues I was having a week and a half ago. They said they would send a technician out to the house to look at it. A couple days later they called and said there were no technicians in my area so they would just replace the set. Last I heard they were forwarding my info to the store so the store would allow me to come in and exchange my set. The only problem I'm running into now is the store in my area told me they're just giving me my money back towards a new set. So it's going to cost a bit to go from the 42" to the new 47" but thats not exactly a comprable replacement so I don't mind much. I just hope the 47" remains in stock for next couple days. Looks like around 8 business days from first service call to being able to bring the set back to a store for a replacement. Though I don't have approval yet so it might be another day or two.

nibbs159

05-25-07, 10:24 AM

i'm within the 30 day return period for my LVM-47W1.

do you think it's worth exchanging it for the TX or am i asking for trouble going from a known to an unknown?
this set seems to meet my needs more as far as inputs go. my cable box is already hooked up via HDMI, i plan on getting a 360 Elite and an HDMI upconvert DVD player and running my PC through it DVI to HDMI if i don't use the VGA.

perplext, if you can do the exchange for free, I would go for it. Otherwise I'm not sure it would be worth the trouble. The TX is retailing for a few hundred more than the LVM was a few days ago. You might want to wait and see if the TX goes on sale if you still have a few weeks. I'm planning on going from a LVM-42w2 to the TX-47F430S but this was brought on my ps3 issues on the LVM-42w2. From what i've read, the LVM-47w1 does not have the same issues the early LVM-42w2 has. It's a tough decision, are you happy with the LVM? Any terrible banding or dead pixels? If not, I think I would just stick with the LVM...

jbradg

05-25-07, 10:28 AM

Benzonate, let us know if you end up getting the DVI to HDMI PC input to work. I was hoping to connect a computer digitally to this TV in the future.

jbradg

05-25-07, 10:34 AM

perplext, if you can do the exchange for free, I would go for it. Otherwise I'm not sure it would be worth the trouble. The TX is retailing for a few hundred more than the LVM was a few days ago. You might want to wait and see if the TX goes on sale if you still have a few weeks. I'm planning on going from a LVM-42w2 to the TX-47F430S but this was brought on my ps3 issues on the LVM-42w2. From what i've read, the LVM-47w1 does not have the same issues the early LVM-42w2 has. It's a tough decision, are you happy with the LVM? Any terrible banding or dead pixels? If not, I think I would just stick with the LVM...

If you do choose to pay to go to the TX model, when you purchase the new TV with the money from the bad TV, try to use this coupon, if you do it today or this weekend...

http://images.bestbuy.com/BestBuy_US/en_US/images/external/emailpdf/052207_mem_day_coupons.pdf

aindik

05-25-07, 10:45 AM

Am I missing something, or is this TX-47F430S not yet up on BestBuy.com?

jbradg

05-25-07, 10:48 AM

Am I missing something, or is this TX-47F430S not yet up on BestBuy.com?

I haven't seen it, either by name or by item number, 8346685.

Xcalibur_255

05-25-07, 10:50 AM

Techleaper

05-25-07, 10:52 AM

Benzonate, let us know if you end up getting the DVI to HDMI PC input to work. I was hoping to connect a computer digitally to this TV in the future.

jbradg,
I hooked up my Mac G4 powerbook (DVI out) to the TX-47 (HDMI in) using a HDMI cable with DVI adapter. Besides some over saturation (which is adjustable) the image trully mirrored the powerbook LCD display. Enjoy :)

Xcalibur_255

05-25-07, 10:56 AM

jbradg,
I hooked up my Mac G4 powerbook (DVI out) to the TX-47 (HDMI in) using a HDMI cable with DVI adapter. Besides some over saturation (which is adjustable) the image trully mirrored the powerbook LCD display. Enjoy :)
Is it switching from sRGB colorspace to PC RGB correctly or has Westy overlooked this? I suspect unless there is a menu option to explicitly switch it this is going to be an issue. You'll be able to tell if the blacks and whites are crushed.

jbradg

05-25-07, 10:57 AM

DynStatic

05-25-07, 10:58 AM

Hey all,

So I got around to testing some more things on the TV.

DVI-HDMI 20 foot Cable Input:
Works great. Better then VGA. 1080P Looks amazing. Tested 1 to 1 mapping @1080P using patterns from tft.vanity.dk and looked perfect.

Output of 720P from computer is scaled up. Options in prefs to turn Overscan off displays it in the middle of the monitor at what looks like 1 to 1. I didn't look at a pattern tho.

VGA Cable input:
For whatever reason, the Belkin cable I used reported the wrong timing info to the MacBook. The Cheap Dell VGA Cable that came with my 2005fpw worked better in this regard. I was able to get it to work, but the video was shifted to the left and I couldn't adjust it correctly. However the ghosting issues and jitters were vastly improved.

VGA input using official xbox 360 cable:
I think it looked better then component. The xbox dashboard looks better/crisp. I didn't notice any blur or ghosting in 4 hours of crackdown.

Wii with component @480P:
Paper Mario was the only game I tested. Looked good. Everything looked a tad fuzzy from being enlarged. Couldn't get it to not enlarge...

Dynamic Contrast:
I looked at a black to white gradient and noticed more levels of gray with it turned on. It did make everything look a tad darker when on. Pure black looked no different too me.

I did however notice a small band of grays that looked bluish and yellow. I'll post the picture in a bit. I think I'm still restricted from posting urls and images until I hit 5 posts.

I don't have anything with HDMI to test 5.1 audio pass through. And my amp is on the other side of the room. My plan is to wall mount it above the amp so I'm living with the internal speakers.

There is an option to choose your speaker set up. It's Internal / external / Both. Both is the default. Maybe this will help?

Overall I have nothing to complain about.

EDIT: Banding picture:

http://tx.dynstatic.warpmail.net/bandingTX47.jpg

alucard_x

05-25-07, 11:03 AM

can those decals on the front of the bezel be removed?

can the blue power light be turned off in the menu? (it can on my lvm-32w6)

jbradg

05-25-07, 11:03 AM

Hey all,

So I got around to testing some more things on the TV.

DVI-HDMI 20 foot Cable Input:
Works great. Better then VGA. 1080P Looks amazing. Tested 1 to 1 mapping @1080P using patterns from tft.vanity.dk and looked perfect.

Output of 720P from computer is scaled up. Options in prefs to turn Overscan off displays it in the middle of the monitor at what looks like 1 to 1. I didn't look at a pattern tho.

VGA Cable input:
For whatever reason, the Belkin cable I used reported the wrong timing info to the MacBook. The Cheap Dell VGA Cable that came with my 2005fpw worked better in this regard. I was able to get it to work, but the video was shifted to the left and I couldn't adjust it correctly. However the ghosting issues and jitters were vastly improved.

VGA input using official xbox 360 cable:
I think it looked better then component. The xbox dashboard looks better/crisp. I didn't notice any blur or ghosting in 4 hours of crackdown.

Wii with component @480P:
Paper Mario was the only game I tested. Looked good. Everything looked a tad fuzzy from being enlarged. Couldn't get it to not enlarge...

Dynamic Contrast:
I looked at a black to white gradient and noticed more levels of gray with it turned on. It did make everything look a tad darker when on. Pure black looked no different too me.

I did however notice a small band of grays that looked bluish and yellow. I'll post the picture in a bit. I think I'm still restricted from posting urls and images until I hit 5 posts.

I don't have anything with HDMI to test 5.1 audio pass through. And my amp is on the other side of the room. My plan is to wall mount it above the amp so I'm living with the internal speakers.

There is an option to choose your speaker set up. It's Internal / external / Both. Both is the default. Maybe this will help?

Overall I have nothing to complain about.

I got the 5.1 audio to pass through the HDMI when I changed my DVD player from PCM to Bitstream. However, it seemed to be an issue between my new DVD player and my receiver because the same thing happens when I connect the DVD player directly to the receiver via optical.

Joony

05-25-07, 11:26 AM

cbeyond

05-25-07, 12:04 PM

Just a follow up to my sour grapes comment about having to cancel my order at
Amazon a few days ago. Well, kept reading this forum, an holy cow, Best Buy
had them with a 12% discount available right now! I had to call around to
many Best Buy locations, only a few actually had one or two in stock.

Report: Damn, I am glad I did not buy mail order. It seems the these big flat
panels are somewhat fragile although boxed/packed well. I recommend a
store pick up. Anyway first impressions after setting it up in the kitchen table with
a cheap UHF/VHF antenna and a computer:

1. The HDTV tuner seem very good, picked up and held all the local stations,
even with a crappy antenna just thrown near a window.
2. No bad pixels that I can see, excellent images with full 1080i resolution.
3. My computer had trouble playing a 1080p movie (HDDVD) that I had on
the hard drive. Sound was ok, but frames were being dropped. I think
my Nvida 7300gt is the problem. This brand new pci express card is too
slow! :) I may try overclocking it. Regular 1080i .ts files play just fine.
4. The 1080p movie plays fine if I lower the screen resolution to 720p.
5. I have no complaints about the tv so far.

darkninja67

05-25-07, 12:12 PM

Thanks for the impressions guys. Any PC gamers out there that can provide screenshots ingame? I wonder how F.E.A.R. would look on this set.

DynStatic

05-25-07, 12:40 PM

Xcalibur_255, are you saying that if a PC/Mac is hooked up to the TX via HDMI, the colors will look different because of the colorspace that it expects from a normal HDMI source (ie video stuff)?

If Westinghouse did not compensate for this, is there anything that the user can do about it?

I plan on getting the 42" TX to use with a HTPC to play games on and watch my good ole downloaded tv shows on.

All TX owners, if you have both a VGA and DVI-HDMI cable, can you compare the overall colors and blacks by hooking it up to a PC or Mac and looking at some color charts online or something?

Mac's us a different color space then PC's. It's really only a problem for Mac users which is easy to overcome. It's easy to get a ball park color calibration using the Display Calibration assistant. Or you can find the correct sRGB Profile doing some google searches. Macs use a default gamma of 1.8 while PC's use 2.2. Also I believe that the target white point you choose can also play a part.

I can try and do a comparison but wont be home until Monday to do any testing.

Xcalibur_255

05-25-07, 01:00 PM

Xcalibur_255, are you saying that if a PC/Mac is hooked up to the TX via HDMI, the colors will look different because of the colorspace that it expects from a normal HDMI source (ie video stuff)?

If Westinghouse did not compensate for this, is there anything that the user can do about it?

I plan on getting the 42" TX to use with a HTPC to play games on and watch my good ole downloaded tv shows on.

All TX owners, if you have both a VGA and DVI-HDMI cable, can you compare the overall colors and blacks by hooking it up to a PC or Mac and looking at some color charts online or something?
Actually the differences in Gamma between Mac and PC is yet another issue I didn't touch on. PCs map the greyscale to a 0-255 scale..... 0 being black and 255 being white. The studio RGB colorspace used everywhere else except the PC world uses the same 0-255 scale but it maps video black to 16 and video white to 235. The area below and above DO contain video information most of the time though, especially in the chroma channel. This is where the terms "blacker than black" and "whiter than white" come from. Improper conversion between the two colorspaces either blows out or clips the video information at each end resulting in crushed greyscale rendering and loss of luma and chroma detail in near dark or near white image data.

Troyd

05-25-07, 01:29 PM

can those decals on the front of the bezel be removed?

can the blue power light be turned off in the menu? (it can on my lvm-32w6)

Yes the decals can be removed, but I'm not sure about the light. I'll check tonight when I get home.

TLJester

05-25-07, 01:38 PM

Thanks for the impressions guys. Any PC gamers out there that can provide screenshots ingame? I wonder how F.E.A.R. would look on this set.
I was playing C&C Tiberium Wars last night and its looked AMAZING @ full res/detail.
I will try and get some shots this weekend inc fear etc.
I did notice that the image reprodction was VERY good (i am a designer/photographer so notice these things). Cant wait to fully callibrate this TV :)

TLJester

05-25-07, 01:41 PM

Yes the decals can be removed, but I'm not sure about the light. I'll check tonight when I get home.
You can turn the light off - its in the menu.
I tested it and it works.

Xcalibur_255

05-25-07, 01:41 PM

Yes the blue light can be turned off. It's in the settings menu.

Xcalibur_255

05-25-07, 01:44 PM

DynStatic

05-25-07, 01:57 PM

Without knowing where the scale begins and ends in that image I cannot say for certain but it appears the blacks are being crushed. I suspect disabling the dyamic contrast will pull your grey ramp more evenly to the left. The ramp should rise from black smoothly and evenly. The coloration you note is hard to diagnose without more information, however variations in greyscale tracking can make certain colors of grey apear blue and others neutral grey or even reddish. This is why I need to see a professional review that analyzes this.

I didn't spend any time adjusting anything. I couldn't even tell you what display setting that was on. I downloaded the monitor test swf from tft.vanity.dk and displayed it full screen using the standalone flash player on my Macbook pro. I'm not sure what the scale ramp is. The lack of ramping in the left could very well be my fault. I took that picture with a 5mp point and shoot. Sony DSC-T7. It's not good with dark stuff like that. I too want to see a professional review.

BENZONATE

05-25-07, 02:23 PM

and running my PC through it DVI to HDMI if i don't use the VGA.

Hello perplext,

What video card do you plan on running to the TX?

I have multiple video cards(laptop e1704/9400 @ Nvidia GO 7800) that work with the LVM-47w1 via DVI-DVI & DVI-HDMI

I will also report using BFG OC 7800 GTX cards via DVI-HDMI & SLI configuration as well(at some point this week(end)).

~b3nz0n8

BENZONATE

05-25-07, 02:34 PM

Benzonate, let us know if you end up getting the DVI to HDMI PC input to work. I was hoping to connect a computer digitally to this TV in the future.

I am on it..

Also, I am uncertain as whether to go with another LVM-47w1 or take the 47w1 back and pick up another TX-47F430s.

LVM-47w1: FIRMWARE 1.05

GOOD:
~GREAT HD PICTURE (via COX Explorer 3250HD cable box & dvr)
~GREAT RESPONSE TIME
~PC CONNECTION VIA DVI-DVI & DVI-HDMI = SUPURB PICTURE (VGA DOES NOT COMPARE ON THE TX or LVM SERIES)
~BEAUTIFUL PC MONITOR
~BEAUTIFUL HD PICTURE(no motion blur and CRYSTAL CLEAR with good color, TX has better color depth & blacks)
~ZERO DEFECTS (PIXELS/FLASHLIGHTING/BACKLIGHT BLEED/ETC...IT'S BEAUTIFUL)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/211/514126049_8a958f7f9d_b.jpg

BAD:
~VGA = Slight red shift in text & everything else = SMUDGED look & feel. (VGA does not deliver the brilliance of DVI and its sharpness)

~LVM series does not deliver all the perks of the TX menu, Calibration(except a small amount available in the LVM service menu), LVM Blacks don't match those of the TX(the TX delivers better blacks)

SIDE NOTE:

~TX delivers a much better COLOR DEPTH & an EXTREME ANGLE CLARITY. The LVM does not match this and has a RED WASHOUT(but it is not a major issue).
If you are looking for a wider viewing angle = TX Delivers.

OPINION on the LVM-47w1 :
CURRENTLY(PRE-TX TESTING), The thought of HAVING 2 LVM-47w1, AT THIS POINT WITH ALL OF THE "GOOD", WOULD BE SATISFYING. THAT IS, IF, I CAN OBTAIN ONE PRIOR TO INVENTORY DEPLETION @ BB.
Further research/tweaking will tell.

The picture clarity, lack of motion blur, PC connectivity via DVI is simply amazing.

UPDATE:

TX: motion blur was mostly caused by the Explorer 3250HD & DVR via the " ZOOM " feature. When set to " NORMAL "...THE PICTURE IS SUBSTANTIALLY SHARP/CLEAR & EXHIBITS MUCH LESS MOTION BLUR.

~b3nz0n8

Xcalibur_255

05-25-07, 03:09 PM

Oh, one last thing I forgot to mention for you: LCDs are immune to magnetic interference so don't worry about your Klipsch speakers being close.

BENZONATE

05-25-07, 03:58 PM

Oh, one last thing I forgot to mention for you: LCDs are immune to magnetic interference so don't worry about your Klipsch speakers being close.

Very nice!

CRT issues with magnetic fields have always been a problem within a few feet of these Klipsch 4.1 speakers. I was not sure if the magnetic field would affect the internal archetecture. Good news..now back to the bat cave.

Thanks Xcalibur_255

~b3nz0n8

Hskr8

05-25-07, 05:33 PM

I think it's imperative for a capable graphics card from a computer be able to hookup dvi > hdmi for me... Sounds like Macs work, which is what I plan to use, but not being able to get the nvidia cards that you have working sounds a little disheartening... are you sure that there isn't something else you need to tweak in the nvidia settings? Are your drivers several years old/aka latest drivers? I also seem to recall hearing that something special had to be done in the nvidia settings to originally get the lwm series to work correctly in the first place... maybe whatever that tweak was isn't necessary anymore?

One other thing that I have questions about is the pixels between the TX and the LWM series. You say the pixels are larger, and give a screen door effect (albeit nose to the glass) so not worried about this in the new TX line, but pixels are pixels, and there should be exactly the same number of pixels on both sets... so how can the pixels be larger on the TX series? they are the same size panels with the same number of pixels right? To further this thought, one would think that if the LWM set had smaller pixels, one would see more of a screen door effect because there would be more space between individual pixels...

Anyone following what I'm getting at here?

Also, has anyone actually "Done" PIP? That's the only way we are going to know if it works or not.

Thanks again for all the great info so far!!!

Xcalibur_255

05-25-07, 05:54 PM

I may be able to give you an answer here, but take it with a big grain of salt because I'll both be making guesses and working with rather limited understanding myself.

The number of pixels and their size does indeed remain the same, but they can appear to be spaced differently depending upon how the liquid crystal matrix is laid out. A good example of this is Sharp panels using what they market as Multi-pixel technology. Basically each pixel is split into two planes and each plane's crystal element is aligned along what I believe is an axis rotated 90 degrees. What this does basically is double the effective viewing angle along one plane. This makes sense if you compare to real-world viewing where people report that the horizontal viewing angle of these panels is fantastic whereas the vertical performance is about the same as their previous MVA designs.

This is a newer generation of CMO panel. Both they and AUO have been working on a new generation of MVA themselves that improves viewing angle performance. Samsung's PVA is also basically a take on this design concept. Liquid crystals are basically light control valves and viewing angle is a result of the fact that they release this light only within a controlled "window" of angle. Light goes in a straight line until it strikes something, so this combined with the diffuser layer you see on the surface of an LCD results in the viewing angle issue we all know. By splitting the pixel element they're basically aiming the light left and right at 45 degree angles instead of aiming it all straight ahead, which combined with the diffuser results in less color shift and washout when you move from side to side.

If the new Westy offers superior viewing angle performance compared to the LVMs then it's logical to assume my theory is correct and this is the new A-MVA matrix. That would be why the pixel structure appears different very close up.

Hskr8

05-25-07, 06:05 PM

Thanks Xcalibur! that does make sense now... I wonder if the viewing angle is different between the two panels specs? Side by side comparison is always best though...

jbradg

05-25-07, 06:06 PM

I cannot get PIP to work. Also, the option seems to be greyed out and there doesn't appear to me to be a way to enable it, even on different inputs. I've plugged in an S-Video signal and a HDMI signal and no PIP.

However, I after plugging in the s-video connection, I could no longer get my HDMI input to work. Shut off the DVD player, no affect. Turned off the TV, no help. I unplugged the S-Video source and then shut off the HDMI source and turned it back on and it worked. I just ran up to report this, but I am going to go play around with it some more to see what's the deal. At this point I don't know if something might be wrong with the TV or my new Samsung DVD player. I will say the player locked up last night and I had to unplug it and plug it back in, so I'm thinking it's the DVD player.

Edit... I've tried it some more and cannot get that issue to repeat itself at the moment. Not sure what was going on. I found it interesting that I get a message on the screen when powering on the HDMI DVD player that the HDMI audio not supported. I am thinking this is because I have the DVD player in Bitstream mode rather than PCM so that my older receiver will play the DD5.1. In the Bitstream mode I get no audio from the TV, but the receiver will see the DD5.1. In PCM mode, the TV plays the audio, but my receiver only sees 2 channel audio. Isn't this suppose to be plug and play? :-)

jbradg

05-25-07, 06:32 PM

The autosource feature is interesting. It will switch to whatever source you power up on the input it's plugged into. If you left the previous source on, you can turn it off and back on and it will auto-switch back to that source. I guess this can be good and bad. You can turn this feature off if you want. Otherwise you select the source by pressing the input button and then up and down arrows to your source and pressing enter or waiting, or you can press the input button multple times and it will scroll down the list of inputs. There are quick select buttons at the bottom for the inputs, but only one HDMI button. I will have 2 HDMI sources, so I will have to press that button 3 times to go from HDMI source 2 back to 1. Maybe I'll just shut off the one device and turn on the other and vice versa and use the autoseclect feature.

This is going to prove interesting on how I program my macro remote and switch between sources.

Hskr8

05-25-07, 06:47 PM

I cannot get PIP to work. Also, the option seems to be greyed out and there doesn't appear to me to be a way to enable it, even on different inputs. I've plugged in an S-Video signal and a HDMI signal and no PIP.

...

I think under the Display section there is an option to turn PIP on for that particular input and wasn't sure if that section was grayed out or not... see if you can enable PIP there for a couple of inputs first, then give PIP a try... crossing my fingers

jbradg

05-25-07, 07:04 PM

I think under the Display section there is an option to turn PIP on for that particular input and wasn't sure if that section was grayed out or not... see if you can enable PIP there for a couple of inputs first, then give PIP a try... crossing my fingers

I could not enable it.... tried a few of the inputs... couple HDMI, s. video, A/V, TV.

Troyd

05-25-07, 08:27 PM

BENZONATE

05-25-07, 09:55 PM

Thanks Xcalibur! that does make sense now... I wonder if the viewing angle is different between the two panels specs? Side by side comparison is always best though...

SIDE BY SIDE PICS WILL BE POSTED IN THE NEXT 2 HOURS...STAY TUNED.

~b3nz0n8

BENZONATE

05-25-07, 10:12 PM

Benzonate, I want to thank you for putting in all this effort. This is the first good look and seeing it side by side with the 47w1 is a great opportunity. I'd like to answer a couple of things you've brought up:

The text blur you see is indeed a result of the VGA. At that resolution it can be any number of issues from the cable to the clock source, but it's very common for VGA to fall down at this resolution. A DVI -> HDMI adapter cable is something to test out here on the TX, but it brings up the issue of colorspace conversion at the same time. The hazy clouding you see in the upper right is indeed a mura defect. It's the most common kind and this results in too much pressure being applied when the panel is sealed and it's color filter and polarizer is applied. Some of the cells in the corners get crushed and it allows more light leakage as a result. I would expect to see this on many of these including my own when it's here and I cannot stress enough that this afflicts the MAJORITY of LCD panels and I hope people don't take to focusing on it here like they have in other threads. It's something we have to deal with when buying this particular technology.

You also exhibit some mura along the bottom of the panel and this is more traditionally inline with what the Sony XBR buyers call "clouds" in that the spin coating or photo lithograhy process wasn't completely uniform resulting in the slightly hazy look you see there. We'll have to wait and see how much this shows up. The overall black floor does appear lower. It's my hope that this is the updated A-MVA panel type. When you step off at extreme viewing angles does the color of red wash out the most noticeably like it does on the 47w1? I also can't help but notice that after Westinghouse painfully stating there is no PIP it seems from your screenshots that it does indeed support the feature, just not dual-tuner PIP.

You'll want to set your Power Mode from normal to E. Saver/Economy right away. What this does is cut the unit's standby power consumption from 45 watts down to under a 1 watt in exchange for the display taking a little bit longer to light when you first turn it on each time. I'm also curious if the Normal color temp has been calibrated to 6500K or if you need to select Warm to get close to an accurate white like with most models.

Some comparisons between having dynamic contrast on and off while viewing normal tv or dvd sources would also be a good thing to check out. I want to know if Westinghouse can build a better crappy feature. :)

Most excellent! I jumped on the chance to line up the TX-47F430S and LVM-47w1.

I have been looking forward to your questions/input/ideas/feedback. I have the rest of the weekend to perform tests and I can download any testing platform available online(please PM links and I'll get right on it).

Please ask away and I will see what I can produce via pictures and compare the two panels(TX & LVM).

Your grasp on this technology will benefit all who visit this thread or google the panel. I will be referencing each as often as possible.

There may be individuals in the future that pour through this thread and I don't want any confusion as to which panel is receiving attention. If you see errors in the many posts(I have been cranking out as many as possible, as quickly as possible and trying to balance time with my very understanding fiance..she is the best!). The reporting/pictures/uploads take longer than the testing, but well worth it for the benefit of all those in anticipation of their panels.

I will answer the above questions over the next few hours.

By the way...the TX line does indeed have improved viewing angles.

"The overall black floor does appear lower."
Yes. The black floor is lower, when compared to the LVM, with power off = TX is darker than the LVM.
When powered on (TX & LVM) the black levels on the TX are noticably darker(with and without Dynamic Contrast on)

"It's my hope that this is the updated A-MVA panel type."

The TX panel is visably different from the 47w1.
The TX has a slight gloss, The LVM a grey dull matte finish.
TX pixels are different from the LVM pixels.
TX viewing angles (off to the side) are greater & produce much less washout than the LVM(produces red washout).

When you step off at extreme viewing angles does the color of red wash out the most noticeably like it does on the 47w1?

VIEWING THIS PAGE ON BOTH PANELS: (Xcalibur_255..you will like the extreme viewing angles and color representation as you look down the side of the panel)
FIRST PANEL: TX(DVI-HDMI CONNECTION) (COLORS HOLD TRUE AND THE CONTRAST DEEPENS AS YOU HAVE EXTREME VIEWING ANGLES)
FAR PANEL: LVM-47w1 (DVI-DVI CONNECTION) (NOTICE THE RED WASHOUT)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/196/514102782_a1bda5eeec_b.jpg

HERE IS A BETTER VIEW OF THE "RED WASHOUT" ON THE LVM-47w1(FAR PANEL):

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/245/514102912_ab1107d2ef_b.jpg

************************************************************ **

FROM THE LVM-47w1 (NEAR) TO THE TX (FAR):

RICHER COLORS ON THE TX(FAR) PANEL AT EXTREME ANGLE VIEWING:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/189/514128497_fe912a6108_b.jpg

FRONT VIEW(SIDE BY SIDE: TX / LVM)
THE COLORS ON THE TX(LEFT) ARE DEEPER AND RICHER ON THE SAME IMAGE.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/224/514108084_d39ef14c11_b.jpg

"I also can't help but notice that after Westinghouse painfully stating there is no PIP it seems from your screenshots that it does indeed support the feature, just not dual-tuner PIP. "

I'M WORKING ON THIS AND MANY MORE PICTURES. BACK IN AN HOUR.

SLIDESHOW OF PICTURES I WILL POST TONIGHT:

CLICK HERE TO VIEW SLIDESHOW PICS OF FUTURE POSTS (http://www.flickr.com/photos/8509008@N04/show/)

~b3nz0n8

BENZONATE

05-25-07, 10:13 PM

I have no problems connecting my nvidia 7300 to my TX via a DVI to HDMI cable. I'm running Gentoo/Mythtv @ 1920x1080.

-Troy

LAPTOP CARD OR DESKTOP? DRIVER #?

THANKS,

~b3nz0n8

BENZONATE

05-26-07, 12:39 AM

Benzonate, let us know if you end up getting the DVI to HDMI PC input to work. I was hoping to connect a computer digitally to this TV in the future.

Hello jbradg,

I did have success with the Nvidia GO 7800 (driver 84.69) via DVI-HDMI cable to the TX 47".

When I connected the LVM-47w1 to the Dell laptop:

~I created a profile in the Nvidia "Display Settings" as "DUAL-VIEW", so each monitor has its own settings.
~This profile is based on the LVM-47w1 as a "monitor", the TX is recognized as "HDTV" only and I cannot port to it directly.
~This may be an issue via Nvidia Mobile drivers only, I hear desktop cards port to the TX (DVI-HDMI) just fine.

~I will attempt many different Nvidia Mobile Drivers and report success.

~I had random laptop shutdown problems which may be a heat issue on the video card for driving both displays.
~Or it could be an issue with the software fan control I use to drive the laptop fans on high(need as much cooling as possible).
~The random shutdowns were more frequent while connected to the TX, but I had one while not connected to any monitor.
~Also, zero random shutdowns while connected to the LVM-47w1. (hmmm)

* FAN CONTROL SOFTWARE LINK: http://www.diefer.de/i8kfan/index.html *

~b3nz0n8

Hskr8

05-26-07, 12:49 AM

Xcalibur_255

05-26-07, 01:03 AM

While I'm waiting for a professional review to tell me about colorimetry there is one thing that comes to mind we can check for ourselves. One easy way to tell if a backlight is using a wide gamut CCFL is to compare shots of red, especially deep velvet red such as the color of mature roses and such. Generally LCDs struggle to reproduce deep red particularly in the dark when they are fighting against their effective dark room contrast abilities. If you have any shots like this handy, basically pictures of flora or anything with a variety of vivid color it will help to see if the gamut is noticeably improved on the TX. It's important to note that it is extremely important that the saturation and color/tint levels on both displays be set as closely as possible for such a comparison to be valid.

It seems to me like a number of the improvements I was expecting are present on this tv and Westinghouse is simply doing a terrible job of bragging about them up to this point. As always your time and effort on this front are appreciated Benzonate. The ability to compare the current with the previous is a great help here and you seem to have the space and computer resources as well. I would encourage all owners at this point to attempt a user-level calibration of their sets using Digital Video Essentials or Avia since those results are usually of great interest to future buyers looking for calibration advice. DVE in particular also has video footage that would help with what I wrote above. I'm frustrated that I cannot personally contribute my own experience yet, but I have a few qualms with spending more to get the set now and seeing that money go to Best Buy (a company I don't like to support). Having my suspicions about the panel confirmed is what I needed to keep patience instead of canceling my order with JR though. :)

BENZONATE

05-26-07, 01:08 AM

...are you sure that there isn't something else you need to tweak in the nvidia settings? Are your drivers several years old/aka latest drivers? I also seem to recall hearing that something special had to be done in the nvidia settings to originally get the lwm series to work correctly in the first place... maybe whatever that tweak was isn't necessary anymore?

I have tried many of the new drivers as well as a number of modded drivers.

There are work arounds to get access to the TX via DVI-HDMI. Access via these two laptop video cards ( NVIDIA GO 7800 & GO 7800 GTX ) requires the LVM sit next to it, create a profile for the TX based on the LVM and then connecting the DVI-HDMI cable to HDMI-1.
This is not a solution...we'll find it soon.

I will continue to find a solution and report a.s.a.p.

The issue with these(MY) cards(drivers) is that the TX is recognized as a HDTV (The LVM as a MONITOR)..and the issue is getting the TX to display anything. Looking at new drivers tomorrow.

There has been success with desktop cards recognizing the TX right away. I have 5 various (ATI & Nvidia via DVI) desktop cards I will test over the next 2 weeks. Installing OS on all rigs now.

~b3nz0n8

Xcalibur_255

05-26-07, 01:10 AM

Really Great Pics Benzonate!!!

Guys, focus on the pink/purple bars in all those shots, and you will see the color maintained better on the TX, even front on.

Great to hear Troy about your nvidia 7300 connection and running a proper OS too! ;)

I think I'm pretty much sold... even without the PIP, thanks for trying again Jbradg

Two things jump out at me from that last pic: the first being that while the magenta is more saturated the blues are actually lighter. This could be a color calibration issue or a contrast setting issue so no conclusions can really be drawn just from that. The second thing that pops out at me is the gradient shift from blue to black within the partner sites ad banner. Notice there is some visible gradient shift on the TX whereas on the LVM it is almost entirely black with a slight and sudden shift to blue at the end. Again could be calibrated related but it's noteworthy. Actually I have a really easy request for Benzonate if his photography skills are up to it. :) What we need is a high exposure picture of both sets turned ON with no signal displaying a black screen with the room lights off. Both must be active and not in standby. The over-exposure (how much is something that usually has to be experimented with) will make the screens look hazy grey and aren't meant to represent black levels in the room at all. What over exposing the picture does it make it easy to gauge with the eyes which set is showing the darker grey and hence which produces better black levels. For this test to be fair the backlights must be set to equivalent values. Two shots, one with backlight at max and another with backlight at minimum, would be fantastic.

BENZONATE

05-26-07, 02:06 AM

... are you sure that there isn't something else you need to tweak in the nvidia settings? Are your drivers several years old/aka latest drivers? I also seem to recall hearing that something special had to be done in the nvidia settings to originally get the lwm series to work correctly in the first place... maybe whatever that tweak was isn't necessary anymore?

Drivers used: Multiple, very new(90 series) & 80 series are used. Each driver(modded or standard) have different options.

I will report with a solution soon.

CURRENT DRIVER:
nForceware Configuration :
Standard 2D : GPU: 100 MHz - Memory: 658 MHz
3D Performance : GPU: 400 MHz - Memory: 1064 MHz
3D Low Power : GPU: 250 MHz - Memory: 658 MHz
ForceWare Version : 6.14.10.8469

LVM-47w1:

~ Via DVI-DVI is recognized immediately as HDTV & LVM-47w1. You have the option to pick which you wish to set up. TV or Monitor. This is very very nice.

TX-47F430s:

~Connected via DVI-HDMI is recognized as HDTV, but will not display anything.
~WORKAROUND:
-Connect the LVM-47w1 to the laptop.
-Create an Nvidia PROFILE for the TX using the LVM-47w1 PROFILE.
-This PROFILE = DUAL-VIEW with the LVM as PRIMARY
-Disconnect the LVM DVI & connect the TX DVI-HDMI immediately
-TX now displays 1:1 Pixel Mapping in beautiful, rich, deeper color than the LVM. Very nice!

_____________________________________________
#1 of 3 LAPTOP VIDEO CARDS:

General Information :
Manufacturer : Nvidia Corp (Dell Computer Corp)
Model : GeForce Go 7800 GTX
Bus Type : PCI-Express
Total Memory : 256 MB
Texture Memory : 475 MB
Processor : GeForce Go 7800 GTX
Converter : Integrated RAMDAC
Refresh Rate (min/max) : 60/60 Hz
_____________________________________________

Mikeoz

05-26-07, 02:26 AM

BENZONATE

05-26-07, 03:44 AM

Two things jump out at me from that last pic: the first being that while the magenta is more saturated the blues are actually lighter. This could be a color calibration issue or a contrast setting issue so no conclusions can really be drawn just from that. The second thing that pops out at me is the gradient shift from blue to black within the partner sites ad banner. Notice there is some visible gradient shift on the TX whereas on the LVM it is almost entirely black with a slight and sudden shift to blue at the end. Again could be calibrated related but it's noteworthy. Actually I have a really easy request for Benzonate if his photography skills are up to it. :) What we need is a high exposure picture of both sets turned ON with no signal displaying a black screen with the room lights off. Both must be active and not in standby. The over-exposure (how much is something that usually has to be experimented with) will make the screens look hazy grey and aren't meant to represent black levels in the room at all. What over exposing the picture does it make it easy to gauge with the eyes which set is showing the darker grey and hence which produces better black levels. For this test to be fair the backlights must be set to equivalent values. Two shots, one with backlight at max and another with backlight at minimum, would be fantastic.

I will set this up for tomorrow afternoon/evening. I'll cover the window for a completely black room and post the pictures. Please provide feedback & I will adjust as necessary. Also, tomorrow I will knock out as many of the requests(deep reds as well) as possible. Please note, I have a fiance. Enough said. In order to keep the fiance, I must adjust the schedule as necessary. She is the best and she is very understanding. I do want to keep her. So tomorrow, I will crank out as much as possible, and by the way. I also have this entire weekend, fiance included. Ask away...

Off to bed before I get my legs broken...ha!

~b3nz0n8

BENZONATE

05-26-07, 03:57 AM

Wow Benzonate, thanks for all the great info!

I got a question for you since you have the tx47 right in front of you.. What do you have the TV currently resting on? Is the metal grating pretty darn sturdy or is the TV not that heavy..?

The manual says it's 83 lbs. and I'm having a hard time debating whether I would need a new stand. The current stand I have has a top shelf *rated to 70 lbs*, but I wonder if it could easily handle a little more. I have an lcd ~50 lbs sitting on it w/o issue now. It's an audio rack w/ 5/8" mdf and two metal tubes in the front and one support in the middle back. Here's a link to the product: Stand (http://www.audio-video-furniture.com/Plateau-SF-4A-4-Shelf-Audio-Stand.htm)

It uses 5/8" mdf so I'm thinking the stand should easily be able to support the weight. Perhaps I could throw a small 2x4 between the top and next shelf to add a little extra support for security..?

I apologize since this isn't exactly the forum for discussing stands, but it's not easy finding stands/racks where the top shelf can support a decent amt of weight.

No problem and it is good that you ask. These panels are heavy and distribute weight pretty evenly along the base. "Tilt" ~ forward or backward is a concern if you move it around(cables, upgrades, etc), and it does sway a bit forward and backward on this metal rack I have mine on. I move it out often to adjust cables, etc.

THE RACK: I bought mine from SAMS CLUB for $80.00. I have my garage lined with them and they are fully adjustable...really, you can use them for everything. The rack you see is the bottom half. You get the bottom & top half(screws together) for the price above. Super heavy duty. The entire rack is rated for 500 or 600 lbs. I think you get 6 shelves(rated around 100-125lbs(I have put 300lbs of prostyle dumbells on a shelf...it gave a bit..but held strong), casters, plastic shims that click together on the ridges. Fully adjustable..I use them everywhere.

www.samsclub.com

I recommend these racks for everything. My fiance complains about my investment in these commercial grade racks(I'm a guy)....now she has one in her closet. Just a matter of time.....

The rack you are looking at online. That is not bad, but you will stock the shelves, load cables and top it off with a beautiful LCD that borders on the maximum weight limit...I would say look for a sturdier rack. Go overboard for full on stability. If the racks you look at are near the weight capacity....look further. These are heavier than you think and moving the rack fully loaded may tweak the architecture into failure over time. That would be a shame.

Look for something stout and I will keep my eyes open for you as well. I'll PM links to you as they come up.

Feel free to ask any questions and I will respond between posts.

~b3nz0n8

BENZONATE

05-26-07, 04:08 AM

I'm frustrated that I cannot personally contribute my own experience yet,

No worries. I am sure there will be thorough examination and a few sleepless nights soon. I am very certain your reports will provide the necessary, indepth information for us all. Your knowledge and the personal experiences of drbonbi were the reason I picked up the LVM-47w1. It will be good to add your experiences and extensive knowledge to the collective, so we all will have the opportunity to collaborate.

but I have a few qualms with spending more to get the set now and seeing that money go to Best Buy (a company I don't like to support). Having my suspicions about the panel confirmed is what I needed to keep patience instead of canceling my order with JR though. :)

I too had reservations, as my BB experiences have always been poor. But I took some time to do some in-store research on the LVM and I was pleasantly surprised by the direction of the BB management. My recent experiences with BB
has opened the door to local service/exchange/Geek Squad support...who knows...

~b3nz0n8

Troyd

05-26-07, 08:31 AM

LAPTOP CARD OR DESKTOP? DRIVER #?

THANKS,

~b3nz0n8

Desktop running nvidia's driver version 1.0.8776-r1 straight from portage. Here is the Xorg log

(**) NVIDIA(0): Depth 24, (--) framebuffer bpp 32
(==) NVIDIA(0): RGB weight 888
(==) NVIDIA(0): Default visual is TrueColor
(==) NVIDIA(0): Using gamma correction (1.0, 1.0, 1.0)
(**) NVIDIA(0): Option "RenderAccel" "true"
(**) NVIDIA(0): Enabling RENDER acceleration
(II) NVIDIA(0): NVIDIA GPU GeForce 7300 LE at PCI:5:0:0
(--) NVIDIA(0): VideoRAM: 524288 kBytes
(--) NVIDIA(0): VideoBIOS: 05.72.22.43.00
(II) NVIDIA(0): Detected PCI Express Link width: 16X
(--) NVIDIA(0): Interlaced video modes are supported on this GPU
(--) NVIDIA(0): Connected display device(s) on GeForce 7300 LE at PCI:5:0:0:
(--) NVIDIA(0): WDE WESTINGHOUSETX-47F430S (DFP-0)
(--) NVIDIA(0): WDE WESTINGHOUSETX-47F430S (DFP-0): 165.0 MHz maximum pixel
(--) NVIDIA(0): clock
(--) NVIDIA(0): WDE WESTINGHOUSETX-47F430S (DFP-0): Internal Single Link TMDS
(II) NVIDIA(0): Assigned Display Device: DFP-0
(II) NVIDIA(0): Validated modes:
(II) NVIDIA(0): "1920x1080"

Ohgami

05-26-07, 01:01 PM

guitarpik

05-26-07, 01:50 PM

Does anyone know the BB item # for the 42"?

I just called my local BB and gave him the 47" item # posted in this thread but he said they didn't have it. I asked him what Westinghouse models they had and he read off some model i've never heard of before. He also said it was listed at $1399. I'm doubting its the 42" TX but just wanted to make sure here and see if anyone knows the exact item # for the 42.

Thanks

BENZONATE

05-26-07, 01:54 PM

Benzoate,

Since you have the 47W1 and the TX-47 think you can throw a Progressive Scan DVD player and have each upscale it to 1080p to see the diff. I'm really interested to see how good that new Video Chip is compared to the Faroudja DCDi that was in the 37W3,42W2,47W1.

Yes. I should be able to do this for you this weekend. I will pick up a friends P.S. DVD and report with all the details & pics.

Today, bike ride with my fiance. I have been neglecting her....as you can see. So quality time with her and then I will dig in with the requests and updates.

Later this evening, I will be able to settle in and take care of a few. All day tomorrow and Monday will be open to completing the tests.

Xcalibur_255, Ohgami, jwdsail, etc....I'll get on it as soon as I can. Xcalibur_255, the room is set up for your test. Do you have an image(red, crimson) you wish to use?

Thanks everyone,

~b3nzon8

BENZONATE

05-26-07, 01:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwdsail

First - Thanks for the posts so far! Lucky .. both of my dream HD sets to your self!

Have a request, if you don't mind....

Could you put your camera in manual exposure ... (manual color too if possible...) set it against both screens on a middle gray image, then take a few shots of them side by side in both a well lit room and a dark room every-time with the same image on both the screens (some movies would be great... Sin City, Blade Runner, Das Boot, any others you like...)(No flash with either well lit or dark room if possible?) Shots comparing these movies w/ Dynamic Contrast on and off would be great as well... (nah, I'm not too picky ;-) )

Just trying to get a better idea of what I'm seeing... In some of your shots, I'd say the older 47 looks better to my eyes.. But can't tell if it's the screen or the camera.. Some of the photos the camera is trying to expose for the room being properly exposed, not the screens....(at least how it looks)

Have you already calibrated the LVM to the settings on the LVM thread and not done anything on the TX? Or are both "out of the box" settings-wise?[/COLOR] [/B]

~~~~~~~~

Hello jwdsail,

No problem at all.
The camera: Sony DSC-S75 (3.3 MP)
I am very pleased with the images this camera produces.

BOTH PANELS:
A bit of user menu calibration, but a factory reset is in order for these tests. No problem. They are both "out of the box" and ready to test.
I won't fully calibrate until there are more owners and much more feedback.

I am researching video drivers to solve my DVI-HDMI issues with the Nvidia GO 7800 GTX problem. There is a workaround, but I need the solution. Both of these are extremely beautiful panels @ 1:1 pixel mapping. Currently, the issue with the connectivity with the TX, I would say the LVM is the best way to go. Yet, a few hours ago, I was able to connect via DVI-HDMI to the TX which not only matched the LVM for 1:1 beauty, but bested it with deeper colors and a greater viewing angle(much better & without the LVM red/pink washout). The LVM is amazing and I even think, at this point that it displays HD content better than the TX. Also, the LVM produces a slightly "CRISPER" picture via DVI. I say that now, but I have had very very little time to dig into the TX. Another week and we will have it turned inside out.

I will set up tomorrow and get you the pics you need. Also, PM links to pics I can d/l and match on both laptops(identical drivers & video cards, both Dell e1705 w/ Nvidia GO 7800). I also have a gaming rig(this one) E1705 with the GO 7800 GTX(which has presented the connection problem. Hmmm.

Do you mind if I post your request & my response (or at least the request?) so others with the same question can gather the info from the thread?

Its all a work in progress.

I'll keep you posted and thanks!

~b3nz0n8

Ohgami

05-26-07, 01:59 PM

Thanks tons and have a good time

BENZONATE

05-26-07, 02:03 PM

BENZONATE

05-26-07, 02:05 PM

Desktop running nvidia's driver version 1.0.8776-r1 straight from portage. Here is the Xorg log

Excellent work and thanks Troyd.

I'll post the success of all of my desktop cards as well in the next week.

~b3nz0n8

Mikeoz

05-26-07, 02:21 PM

Mikeoz,

I have a few ideas for a stand that might work. I'll post links later or PM you. It must be solid.

Thanks, I'm open to suggestions. I posted in another forum and one person thought the stand should easily be able to handle ~80 lbs on the top shelf. I'll probably verify this by stacking weights on the top shelf and see if it flexes or if there's any give at all. I'll load it up w/ 100 lbs to be safe and see how it looks. I'm thinking that worst case wedging a 2x4 for additional rear support (since that's where it would give out if anywhere) should be able to do the trick. I have a ~50 lb lcd sitting on it now and I can lean alot of my weight on the top shelf also and it seems ok. I'll try a bit more of a scientific approach perhaps tomorrow by loading it up w/ weights when I have the time.

Thanks again for all your help and input man. I know my GF would be getting annoyed if I was in ur case. Must be a keeper... :p

Ricky Bobby

05-26-07, 02:37 PM

The 47TX looks like a Monster I really want that TV I have a Sony 42E2000 LCD rearprojection TV I bought last September 7th right before NFL kickoff it's cool but that TX looks way better. I stay in a 2 bedroom 2 bath Apt with my fiance I do not know if she will let me buy the TV because our Bedroom is not that big the Sony 42 I think may be a bit much for the Master Bedroom and plus we are saving up for a House I do not know if I want to hear her mouth if I spend some of my savings on the TV but I really want that TV. I have a Westy 32W6 in the bedroom.

Joony

05-26-07, 02:41 PM

Someone needs to wallmount one of these babies and post pics :)

Anyone got info on the 42 incher?

thepsychochiapet

05-26-07, 03:46 PM

This is cross-posted from the anticipation thread. I saw 47 in on sale at my local best buy today (Saturday).
I asked the sales person about the 42 in, and he said he had never heard of it/ it wasn't on his computer. I then pointed out that the 47 also wasn't on his computer, at which point he said "Uhh, well, it's new". I then pointed out that the 42 in is also new, but he still couldnt find it. BB employees annoy me sometimes.
So, to anyone headed out to Best Buy, even if you're buying the 47 in, could you please ask about the 42 in? An item number, or any other information you could gather would be great. I'm hoping to get one while this 12% coupon is still valid, but that's looking less and less likely.

HUMM3

05-26-07, 05:43 PM

Ohgami

05-26-07, 06:25 PM

all i'm seeing on this thread is that BB is selling this set. do other retailers handle it also? i'm hoping to buy one from CC when they have their next same as cash promotion -- 12 or 18 months. i've never seen a same as cash promotion at BB. any help much appreciated.

BB is #1 on Westy's list of Retailers. They'll Ship out to BB and then after a while send out to others. So I'd say 1 month from now you'll probably see it in CC and other B&M places that Normally carry Westys.

Xcalibur_255

05-26-07, 06:40 PM

Benzonate - Let's try these for red shots:
http://www.lawhern.org/Photos/Red-Poppy-SF2004.jpg
http://www.beddingplants.com.au/downloads/CINERARIA.JPG
http://gallery.hd.org/_exhibits/flowers/_more2005/_more08/poppy-flowers-vivid-red-in-field-at-Musselburgh-Scotland-rescan-highres-1-OGS.jpg

I will compare how they look on your two displays against their appearance on my SyncMaster 214T monitor so I have something to compare to. I'm familiar with it's color points and gamut range. The third picture is kind of a trap because that shot doesn't have vivid color. The red should look pretty flat and I want to see if it does on the LVM and TX.

Oh, and I have to give you a hard time here just for fun...... the colors you're using for your posts are an eye killer for those of us who don't use the default AVS color scheme. :)

BENZONATE

05-26-07, 08:21 PM

1138s

05-26-07, 08:31 PM

nibbs159

05-26-07, 09:09 PM

hello people. I just went to my local Best Buy in New York to see if they have the 47" Westy in stock or on display to check it out. The sales guy says that they aren't going to display the Westy in any New York Show room. So if I wanted to buy it I needed to buy it sight unseen. But that I would have the 30 day money back guarantee and I could apply the 10% coupon which he says expires today (I knew he was lying about that since I had a printout of the coupon in my bag which expires the 28th not the 26th).

But anyway, was this guy selling me a bunch of baloney? Is the Westy not going to be displayed in any New York Store? Sounds kind of fishy to me, especially since he was lying about the coupon. Anyone know about this at all?

The Best Buy closest to me also told me they would not be stocking / displaying the TX-47F430S. I called the next closest store and they had one in stock, probably the display model not yet setup. They also rambled off other stores that all had one in stock, it was just about every upstate NY store except for the one closest to me. I think most stores that had one in stock should have them on display starting tomorrow.

I started a BB warranty claim on my LVM-42w2 a week and a half ago and was able to get the TX for the price difference. They also applied the 12% coupon to the TX so the price difference was a great deal for 5 more inches and a new model.

So far I have been really pleased with the TX compared to the LVM. The contrast seems much better and I haven't noticed any banding whatsoever. The only thing bugging me is about 10 stuck pixels, one pretty close to the middle of the screen and stuck green. They haven't been noticable from a regular viewing distance though. Thanks to everyone for their updates over the last few days. I'll do what I can to address any questions.

cozmogeek

05-26-07, 09:48 PM

I connected my laptop via the VGA input and tried both 720p and 1080p and both looked very nice! 1080p was extremely clear and had no overscan once i did the "auto adjust" on the tv. I tried some of the WMVHD 1080p samples and it was very sweet indeed.

BENZONATE

05-26-07, 11:05 PM

Techleaper

05-26-07, 11:05 PM

all i'm seeing on this thread is that BB is selling this set. do other retailers handle it also? i'm hoping to buy one from CC when they have their next same as cash promotion -- 12 or 18 months. i've never seen a same as cash promotion at BB. any help much appreciated.

Humm3,
CC does not carry Westinghouse TV's. I am not sure that any other national B & M carries the full line of Westinghouse digital TV's. My purchase of the TX-47 at BB included 12% off coupon and same as cash until Jan 09. Cheaper than all the online sellers !!

BENZONATE

05-26-07, 11:14 PM

PIP: No luck here attempting to "enable" PIP on the TX 47 yet. I will attempt a number of inputs tomorrow...all day tomorrow.

~b3nz0n8

BENZONATE

05-26-07, 11:25 PM

Humm3,
CC does not carry Westinghouse TV's. I am not sure that any other national B & M carries the full line of Westinghouse digital TV's. My purchase of the TX-47 at BB included 12% off coupon and same as cash until Jan 09. Cheaper than all the online sellers !!

Yes, grab the 12%(10% if you are not part of the REWARDS program) and grab or preorder your TX prior to the coupon deadline (May 28th). BB is a PARTNER of WESTINGHOUSE, thus receiving channel priorty over, apparently, all other retailers(e-tailers). This is why BB is selling the first of the TX line and others are pushing the ship dates back considerably. I received, via a great BB manager, the "Display Model". It is the only one in my state. BB is receiving stock (in transit) as we speak and you will see more arriving this week.

Also:

TX-42F430s is not showing in BB inventory or in their computers yet. I believe it will follow the TX-47 release. I have spoken to a number of BB managers(today) and this is the consensus. Only time will tell.

~b3nzon8

Techleaper

05-26-07, 11:27 PM

PIP: No luck here attempting to "enable" PIP on the TX 47 yet. I will attempt a number of inputs tomorrow...all day tomorrow.

~b3nz0n8

b3, I had simultaneous inputs to components 1 and 2, HDMI 1, RF and VGA and couldn't ungrey PIP in setup menu. I think PIP on the TX-47 is a dead issue, with unfortunate reminders in setup and on remote. :(

stoked

05-26-07, 11:28 PM

Anyone found discrete remote codes for input? Cycling through inputs really sucks.

TupeloXman

05-27-07, 07:21 AM

Hopefully, everyone will see today's BB ad that all TV's are 10% off Sunday and Monday only. If you already purchased the TV/monitor, go back and have them price adjust for the additional 10%. This is too sweet a deal. I am looking forward to being a TX47 owner by this afternoon. Local BB said there were 50 in the their regional warehouse as of Friday.

PS Remember why we are celebrating this weekend. We would not be so free without all of the men and women who have, and continue to fight for our freedom. Thanks to them and their families.

flabioh

05-27-07, 08:05 AM

The 10% off coupon states "Markdowns take from regular prices." So, I'm not thinking you're going to be getting 20% off TVs this weekend.

Mikeoz

05-27-07, 10:10 AM

nibbs159

05-27-07, 10:53 AM

Can anyone with the tx47 do me a favor and measure the dimensions of the base for the tv? That would be very much appreciated!

The base of the TX-47F430S is about 25.5" wide and 9" deep.

DDD

05-27-07, 12:25 PM

Any one try the PS3 with the new set?

Any sparkles?

Does it work with the 1080p/24 setting?

Any info would be appreciated.

BENZONATE

05-27-07, 01:27 PM

Can anyone with the tx47 do me a favor and measure the dimensions of the base for the tv? That would be very much appreciated!

It looks like I'll probably stick with the stand that I have. I stacked up 100lbs of free weights onto the stand and I don't see any considerable flexing or stress on the stand. I also leaned on it w/ my weight on top of that and wiggled it a little bit and it seems ok. I think the 70 lb listed weight limit for the top shelf might be a little conservative, so ~80lb tv. should be perfectly fine.

Thanks!

Very good to hear. Keep an eye on a top heavy rack.
I notice on my commercial racks, as I move them forward to adjust cables, the panels will sway forward and back a bit.

The carpet under the casters flexes a bit as well, with the weight.

Securing the 1st shelf with the 2nd shelf may also be a good idea as well.

Good luck!

~b3nz0n8

HUMM3

05-27-07, 02:15 PM

my BB said today that they'd be in next week. they too said there were 75 in the warehouse. not sure that warehouse if for the whole country or not. anyway she offered me the 10% discounted price, the final with tax being eighteen bens and four buckeroos (6 percent tax). gr8 deal, i think. plus i can do no intrerest and min payments until 2009. she said she'd be there tomorrow and gave me her name etc and told me how to reach her at the store. :D

Hopefully, everyone will see today's BB ad that all TV's are 10% off Sunday and Monday only. If you already purchased the TV/monitor, go back and have them price adjust for the additional 10%. This is too sweet a deal. I am looking forward to being a TX47 owner by this afternoon. Local BB said there were 50 in the their regional warehouse as of Friday.

PS Remember why we are celebrating this weekend. We would not be so free without all of the men and women who have, and continue to fight for our freedom. Thanks to them and their families.

nibbs159

05-27-07, 03:39 PM

Any one try the PS3 with the new set?

Any sparkles?

Does it work with the 1080p/24 setting?

Any info would be appreciated.

My PS3 is hooked up no HDMI 1 and I haven't seen any sparkle. The TX replaced a LVM-42w2 that did have sparkle on DVI2 and HDMI. Handshaking is much smoother on the TX and the LVM. The LVM would usually get stuck handshaking until I switched to another input then back, the TX just flickers for a second and then all is well.

While the LVM displayed the horizontal and vertical refresh rate, the TX does not seem to offer this information in any of the menus. Does anyone know of a test to see if blurays are being played at 24hz?

BENZONATE

05-27-07, 04:12 PM

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/254/516508266_a1ddb05a40_b.jpg

WESTINGHOUSE, TX-47F430s , LVM-47w1

WESTINGHOUSE: TX-47F430s(NEAR/LEFT) & LVM-47w1 (FAR/RIGHT)

SIGNAL(BOTH): COX CABLE (EXPLORER 3250HD & DVR) @ COX CABLE(CH: 730, NORMAN, OK)

LVM CONTROL SETTINGS:
BRIGHTNESS: 50
CONTRAST: 50
SATURATION: 50
HUE: 50
COLOR TEMP: NEUTRAL
SHARPNESS: 6 (of 8)
ASPECT RATIO: STANDARD
BACKLIGHT: 100

++++++++++

TX-47F430s ADJUSTED TO MATCH THE LVM SETTINGS:

MODE: USER
BRIGHTNESS: 65
CONTRAST: 55
SATURATION: 51
HUE: 60
SHARPNESS: 95(of 100)
BACKLIGHT: 100
COLOR TEMP: NEUTRAL

**********************
OPINION:

LVM-47w1:

COLOR: DEEPER RED/CRIMSON & BLUE

CONTRAST: GOOD BLACKS, NOT AT DEEP AS THE TX

WIDE ANGLE VIEWING:
~RED & GENERAL COLOR WASHOUT AND LOSS OF CONTRAST AS ANGLE INCREASES.
~ACCEPTABLE.

PERSONAL OPINION ON LVM:
~THE LVM PRODUCES A CLEAR/CRISPER PICTURE than the TX, with DEEPER RED / CRIMSON / BLUE with COMPARABLE BLACKS.

~VERY GOOD FLESH TONES AND SHADOWS with DETAIL IN DARK SCENES.

~SUPERB AS A COMPUTER MONITOR AND TELEVISION(VIA HD CABLE RECEIVER). No testing with OTA reception.

TX-47F430s(adjusted settings to match the LVM):

COLOR: DEEPER YELLOW, INABILITY TO PRODUCE THE DEEP REDS / CRIMSON & BLUES OF THE LVM.
**NOTE** THIS MAY BE ATTAINED BY USING THE EXTENSIVE R.G.B. CALIBRATION MENU, OR IT MAY BE A LIMITATION OF THE PANEL ITSELF.

TX FLESH TONES COMPARED TO LVM= PINKISH & MORE YELLOW

CONTRAST: DEEPER BLACKS, GOOD SHADOWS ALTHOUGH LOSS OF SOME DETAIL(NOT AS CRISP AS LVM)

WIDE ANGLE VIEWING:
CONTRAST INCREASES & LOOKS GOOD, BETTER COLOR RETENTION, VERY LITTLE COLOR WASHOUT AS VIEWING ANGLE INCREASES.

PERSONAL OPINION ON TX:

COLOR:
GOOD COLOR DEPTH, LACKS DEPTH OF RED/BLUE OF THE LVM(BUT CAN BE CALIBRATED THROUGH EXTENSIVE MENUS PROVIDED)

CONTRAST: BETTER BLACKS THAN THE LVM. ALSO HAS USER DEFINED & DYNAMIC CONTRAST & THAT WORKS WELL.

VIEWING ANGLE:
HOLDS GOOD CONTRAST & COLORS WITH EXTREME VIEWING ANGLES, WITHOUT THE RED WASHOUT OF THE LVM.

SD UPCONVERT:
SD CONTENT ACTUALLY LOOKS PRETTY GOOD AT THE FULL PANEL(47") USING THE SCALING OPTION "OVERSCAN"(others are "STANDARD" & "FILL").
IT LOOKS GOOD IN COMPARISON TO THE LVM, WHICH IS LACKING THE "OVERSCAN" OPTION(LVM SCALING OPTIONS "STANDARD" & "FILL", SO YOU ARE UNABLE TO RECEIVE A FULL PANEL OF SD.

EXTRAS:
HAS A WIDE ARRAY OF USER DEFINED SETTINGS AND BETTER SOUND THAN THE TX.
OPTICAL OUTPUT(NICE)
EXTRA INPUTS(4 HDMI, WITH HDMI-1 AS A PC INPUT WITH RCA INPUT. THE OTHER 3 HDMI ARE HDMI ONLY, WITHOUT RCA INPUT).

...AND MORE.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND, THIS IS MY OPINION.
EITHER MONITOR/TV IS EXCEPTIONAL AND PRODUCES AMAZING QUALITY AND COLOR DEPTH.
THERE IS A TRADE OFF IN SOME INSTANCES BUT BOTH ARE TRULY AMAZING.

~b3nz0n8

Xcalibur_255

05-27-07, 04:14 PM

My PS3 is hooked up no HDMI 1 and I haven't seen any sparkle. The TX replaced a LVM-42w2 that did have sparkle on DVI2 and HDMI. Handshaking is much smoother on the TX and the LVM. The LVM would usually get stuck handshaking until I switched to another input then back, the TX just flickers for a second and then all is well.

While the LVM displayed the horizontal and vertical refresh rate, the TX does not seem to offer this information in any of the menus. Does anyone know of a test to see if blurays are being played at 24hz?
Neither is capable of accepting a 24p input signal if that is what you mean. No display of any kind is capable of actually playing back 24p material natively. It will undergo the same 3:2 frame conversion process that it always has until somebody invents a 120hz solution powerful enough to perform 5x frame interpolation on a 24hz signal.

Xcalibur_255

05-27-07, 04:19 PM

I may have an opportunity to do this tonight. We will see in just a bit.

~b3z0n8
I've looked at some of your recent shots and something seems..... amiss with the TX. On the assumption that Westinghouse has dialed in the video controls the way I would expect them to here, try displaying the sample images with these picture setting adjustments on the TX display:

Color - 50
Tint - 50
Brightness/Contrast - Whatever achieves reference video black and white for your display signal. There are many easy to find test patterns for this on the net if you haven't checked this yet. Otherwise factory defaults should be close enough.
Sharpness - 0
Color Temperature - Warm
Dynamic Contrast - Off

The color temp being anything other than D6500 is going to make the color red look pink. This is because the entire greyscale is biased towards blue. The warm preset is supposed to track 6,500 kelvins, but how close it comes to that I do not know yet.

BENZONATE

05-27-07, 04:29 PM

I've looked at some of your recent shots and something seems..... amiss with the TX. On the assumption that Westinghouse has dialed in the video controls the way I would expect them to here, try displaying the sample images with these picture setting adjustments on the TX display:

Color - 50
Tint - 50
Brightness/Contrast - Whatever achieves reference video black and white for your display signal. There are many easy to find test patterns for this on the net if you haven't checked this yet. Otherwise factory defaults should be close enough.
Sharpness - 0
Color Temperature - Warm
Dynamic Contrast - Off

The color temp being anything other than D6500 is going to make the color red look pink. This is because the entire greyscale is biased towards blue. The warm preset is supposed to track 6,500 kelvins, but how close it comes to that I do not know yet.

Hello Xcalibur_255,

I am having difficulty with the TX locking signal with the preset profile created while the LVM was connected. The TX will drop the signal after a few minutes and I will have to go through the reset(LVM & laptop) to recreate a profile again, even when I saved the first one..strange). The LVM automatically locks in the laptop, so no worries there. The TX is another problem.
I do have another desktop system that has a dual dvi card. I will attempt to run this system later. I am performing OS installs on 2 other laptops now and will start the desktops in awhile. I am setting up a KVM system..to make things a bit easier.

Also, when setting the TX to even (50) on most settings...it is way off from the LVM. You are right, something is amiss.

Would you like a factory reset on both? Will this put them on an even playing field, even though the settings are different?

When I get the desktop systems up..I will report and we can test as many images as you need.

One of the images was ported from the local test channel on both cable HD boxes via RGB input to the panels.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

~b3nz0n8

BENZONATE

05-27-07, 04:47 PM

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/213/516509234_6129b49003_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/204/516510124_bf9f81676b_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/241/516535483_43fbb76f3c_b.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/198/516509530_e871bf4647_b.jpg

WESTINGHOUSE, TX-47F430s(LEFT MONITOR/LVM-47w1 RIGHT MONITOR) PURPLE FEEDBACK LINE WHEN USING TWO IDENTICAL COX HD EXPLORER 3250HD BOXES,

DOES NOT HAPPEN ON THE LVM-47w1 WITH IDENTICAL COX CABLE HD BOXES.

**DEINTERLACE** SETTING ON THE TX(THE LVM DOES NOT HAVE THIS FEATURE IN THE USER MENU).

WHEN DEINTERLACE IS TURNED ON....THIS PURPLE LINE SHOWS UP.

ON = PURPLE FEEDBACK LINE (THE IMAGE SHIFTS UPWARD).

OFF = PURPLE LINE IS GONE (THE IMAGE SHIFTS DOWNWARD).

BENZONATE

05-27-07, 05:21 PM

TX-47F430s SD SCALING:

~"STANDARD"

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/207/516778500_ee6605621d_b.jpg

~"FILL"

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/228/516806619_157c71e7cf_b.jpg

~"OVERSCAN"

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/194/516779082_1567d5321b_b.jpg

***************************************************

LVM-47w1 SD SCALING:

~"STANDARD"

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/204/516804559_7112d7a135_b.jpg

~"FILL"

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/192/516804779_5bf75e3ed8_b.jpg

~b3nz0n8

Ohgami

05-27-07, 05:37 PM

TX-47F430s SD SCALING:
...Snip...
~b3nz0n8

Looks like the new Trident Chip is a Winner. Thanks Benzonate I can't wait to get the TX-42.

flabioh

05-27-07, 05:41 PM

Looks like the new Trident Chip is a Winner. Thanks Benzonate I can't wait to get the TX-42.

Man, the 47" mocks me. I have to get the 42" soon or I'm gonna burst!

nibbs159

05-27-07, 05:42 PM

WESTINGHOUSE, TX-47F430s(LEFT MONITOR/LVM-47w1 RIGHT MONITOR) PURPLE FEEDBACK LINE WHEN USING TWO IDENTICAL COX HD EXPLORER 3250HD BOXES,

DOES NOT HAPPEN ON THE LVM-47w1 WITH IDENTICAL COX CABLE HD BOXES.

**DEINTERLACE** SETTING ON THE TX(THE LVM DOES NOT HAVE THIS FEATURE IN THE USER MENU).

WHEN DEINTERLACE IS TURNED ON....THIS PURPLE LINE SHOWS UP.

ON = PURPLE FEEDBACK LINE (THE IMAGE SHIFTS UPWARD).

OFF = PURPLE LINE IS GONE (THE IMAGE SHIFTS DOWNWARD).

I'm also getting that purple line on 1080i signals when deinterlace is turned on from my Scientific Atlanta 8300. It's hooked up over component, I'll try hooking up over HDMI later this evening and post results. I'll also try putting my xbox360 in 1080i mode over component and see if the purple line shows up.

dolph

05-27-07, 06:37 PM

flabioh

05-27-07, 06:52 PM

Does the purple line show up on the internal NTSC tuner? Also, in general, how is the internal tuner performance?

guitarpik

05-27-07, 07:10 PM

Still no Best Buy item number for the 42"?

If I go in there tommorrow with just the model number, will I be able to "preorder" it? I want to be able to take advantage of the 10% off sale.

Thanks!

RLReady

05-27-07, 07:23 PM

BENZONATE

05-27-07, 08:03 PM

Awesome thread. I just got one of these this afternoon @ Best Buy. I went in to the the other 47" but they told me they had 1 of these in the back.

Through your experimentation have you found optimal settings for component or anything else? (Are the settings in your pics what you use?)

I gotta get a dvi-hdmi cable now. You guys think there is a huge difference between 22gauge and 28gauge cables?

Xcalibur_255 would be our resident expert on settings, tweaks, cable suggestions, etc. He is well read and has indepth knowledge on calibration, image tweaking and achieving premier signal. He is also in "anticipation" of his panel. I am attempting to provide as much knowledge and images based on the side by side comparison of the TX-47F430s & LVM-47w1.

There is still quite a bit of reseach to perform.

I do not have any of these(yet): So I am unable to test these platforms.

~PS3
~XBOX 360
~UPCONVERTING DVD PLAYER
~ANYTHING BLU-RAY OR HD DVD

I do have these:

PS2
HD CABLE DVR: SCIENTIFIC EXPLORER 3250HD (DVR with COMPONENT & HDMI)
HD CABLE BOX: SCIENTIFIC EXPLORER 3250HD (RECEIVER with DVI & COMPONENT) ~This box is giving me a "DVI Blocked..please use Component input". Component input works fine, but I would like to see the DVI connection.

LAPTOP SYSTEMS:

DELL E1705: VIDEO CARD: NVIDIA GO 7800
DELL 9400: VIDEO CARD: NVIDIA GO 7800
DELL E1705: VIDEO CARD: NVIDIA GO 7800 GTX

DESKTOP SYSTEMS:

AMD: ASUS A8N-SLI PREMIUM MOTHERBOARD
~ (this system is is being rebuilt over the next week or so):

VIDEO CARD(S) WITH SLI CONFIGURATION: BFG OC 7800 GTX (x2 with SLI capability)

______________________

PENTIUM 4 @ 3.0 & 3.2Mhz:

ABIT IC7-MAX3(2 SYSTEMS BUILT ON THIS MOTHERBOARD)

VIDEO CARDS:
~ATI RADEON 9600 XT(128MB) (DVI & VGA)
~ATI RADEON 9800 ALL-IN-WONDER PRO (128MB) (DVI & VGA)
~ATI RADEON 9800 PRO (SAPPHIRE FANLESS/HEAT PIPE VERSION) (128MB) (DVI & VGA)

All of these video cards and systems will be tested and reports will follow in a few weeks. I have to rebuild a number of boxes first.

~b3nz0n8

BENZONATE

05-27-07, 08:05 PM

Still no Best Buy item number for the 42"?

If I go in there tommorrow with just the model number, will I be able to "preorder" it? I want to be able to take advantage of the 10% off sale.

Thanks!

Speak with the manager directly or start pulling your hair out now. The system does not reflect the 42" yet, but with BB a PARTNER of WESTINGHOUSE, the manager 'should' have the information or the ability to gather the information for you. The BB manager is the only way to get the info you seek.

~b3nz0n8

BENZONATE

05-27-07, 08:11 PM

One of the things that is holding me back on this panel is the lack of zoom/stretch options. One of the things that my wife likes best about our 5year old Sony 34XBR WS CRT is the "Wide Zoom" option for 4:3 material. It fills the entire screen, but has no (or very little) distortion in the center of the screen. This option is not available with the TX. Is this something that could be added in the future with firmware, or if it doesn't have it, it won't ever have it?

Hello RLReady,

"WIDE ZOOM"( SONY ) = "OVERSCAN"( TX )

POST #127 above displays the "OVERSCAN" option on the TX47. "OVERSCAN" takes the SD content and utilizes the entire screen, which looks good for SD content. I have the LVM-47w1, which does not have the full screen "OVERSCAN" mode.

The TRIDENT chip does a pretty good job of upscaling the SD signal...this is a huge advancement over the LVM series. Now if we could only get PIP to work. It does not look good on enabling PIP on the TX, but it does not make sense to include it on the Remote & in the Menu. Firmware update in the near future? We will see.

You will be happy with the SD content on "OVERSCAN". I was impressed...at least as impressed I could be with SD content.

~b3nz0n8

BENZONATE

05-27-07, 08:26 PM

Does the purple line show up on the internal NTSC tuner? Also, in general, how is the internal tuner performance?

Hello flaboih,

Actually, it is the complete opposite.

When Deinterlace is "ENABLED = ON" (in the USER MENU) while using SD or HD content, the result is a purple line(4-5 pixels thick, from the left side to the right of the panel) along the bottom of the panel.
When Deinterlace is DISABLED "OFF " (in the USER MENU), the image shifts down and the Purple line is gone.

NTSC Tuner:

When the SD content is diplayed via the NTSC tuner, the Deinterlace Purple line is at the TOP of the screen.

Deinterlace = ON = No Purple Line (Even when you use the upscale button on "STANDARD", "FILL", "OVERSCAN".

Deinterlace = OFF = Purple Line @ the top of the screen.

The NTSC tuner allows additional content.

~b3nz0n8

BENZONATE

05-27-07, 08:42 PM

Man, the 47" mocks me. I have to get the 42" soon or I'm gonna burst!

Hey guys,

Dig into the Managers @ BB and see if someone can come up with an answer on the 42" release/ship date. I have been unable to locate any information yet, as I am in deep with platform builds and testing. I am uncertain as to whether it is a short delay, or another issue. The BB warehouse is currently receiving stock of the 47". Possibly the 42" will follow as soon as the warehouse can fulfill the brick & morter needs. I was to believe the 42" would release with or close to the 47". It seems it may be a different story. BB & Westinghouse in partnership = first to market. I am uncertain as to the issue in the delay of the 42". Hopefully we will see it soon and see some reviews. Crossing fingers....now.

I am eager to have others experiences in this thread. I will be calibrating soon and would like to have the benefit of those in the "know'. This thread is shaping up nicely and should be on fire soon, with additional experiences. I hope my posts are helping those looking to jump in on this/these panels. It is repayment to those(drbonbi, Xcalibur_255 & others from other threads) who helped me find my way and happiness. These panels are both simply AMAZING.

~b3nzon8

BENZONATE

05-27-07, 08:47 PM

Awesome thread. I just got one of these this afternoon @ Best Buy. I went in to the the other 47" but they told me they had 1 of these in the back.

Through your experimentation have you found optimal settings for component or anything else? (Are the settings in your pics what you use?)

I gotta get a dvi-hdmi cable now. You guys think there is a huge difference between 22gauge and 28gauge cables?

Hello Dolph,

Excellent! I have not found optimal settings as of yet. I am attempting to work out difficulties(drivers) with my laptop video cards on the TX. The TX is recognized as a HDTV and I cannot port to it without first connecting the LVM, creating a profile based on the LVM and then connecting the TX, which drops the signal in a few minutes and I have to start all over again. It may be an issue with my software cooling solution and improper reads or miscommuncation and system shut down. I am currently working on this and wil report.

Also, I cannot chech the DVI-HDMI on my HD cable box..it gives me a DVI BLOCKED error. I may have to contact Cox Cable tech support to "ENABLE" the DVI port on the box. One issue at a time.

Also, The HD DVR has a HDMI port. I only have DVI-HDMI cables currently. This week, I will pick up a HDMI-HDMI and report.

Now it's your turn. What have you come up with so far?

The burning question... CAN ANYONE ENABLE "PIP" ON THIS SET?

Back to the Lab....

Thanks,

~b3nz0n8

Ohgami

05-27-07, 09:47 PM

Hey guys,

Dig into the Managers @ BB and see if someone can come up with an answer on the 42" release/ship date. I have been unable to locate any information yet, as I am in deep with platform builds and testing. I am uncertain as to whether it is a short delay, or another issue. The BB warehouse is currently receiving stock of the 47". Possibly the 42" will follow as soon as the warehouse can fulfill the brick & morter needs. I was to believe the 42" would release with or close to the 47". It seems it may be a different story. BB & Westinghouse in partnership = first to market. I am uncertain as to the issue in the delay of the 42". Hopefully we will see it soon and see some reviews. Crossing fingers....now.

I am eager to have others experiences in this thread. I will be calibrating soon and would like to have the benefit of those in the "know'. This thread is shaping up nicely and should be on fire soon, with additional experiences. I hope my posts are helping those looking to jump in on this/these panels. It is repayment to those(drbonbi, Xcalibur_255 & others from other threads) who helped me find my way and happiness. These panels are both simply AMAZING.

~b3nzon8

Well I'll be able to use my HD DVD of DVE once I can get ahold of a TX-42.

cozmogeek

05-27-07, 11:50 PM

I just realized that my DVD player and this TV aren't playing nice together. My DVD player is a Panasonic RP91. When I feed it either a 480p or 480i component video signal the TV displays it as 4:3 with black bars on the sides, despite the stretch mode being set to Normal. I tried changing the aspect settings in the dvd player options and it didn't make any difference.

It seems to be the TV doing this and I don't know why. If I set it to "fill" mode the aspect ratio is correct and it fills up the screen but it is chopping off the top and bottom of the picture.

Anyone have any ideas?

EDIT:
Actually when looking at it now with everything set the way I expect to work normally I actually have double black bars on the sides of the picture.

wmcclain

05-28-07, 07:51 AM

I gotta get a dvi-hdmi cable now. You guys think there is a huge difference between 22gauge and 28gauge cables?

Unless you are going very long distances (25-50ft?) it makes no difference. There is an HDMI forum here that has plenty of detail on this.

monoprice.com and bluejeanscable.com have good cheap cables.

-Bill

flabioh

05-28-07, 10:40 AM

Hey guys,

Dig into the Managers @ BB and see if someone can come up with an answer on the 42" release/ship date. I have been unable to locate any information yet, as I am in deep with platform builds and testing. I am uncertain as to whether it is a short delay, or another issue. The BB warehouse is currently receiving stock of the 47". Possibly the 42" will follow as soon as the warehouse can fulfill the brick & morter needs. I was to believe the 42" would release with or close to the 47". It seems it may be a different story. BB & Westinghouse in partnership = first to market. I am uncertain as to the issue in the delay of the 42". Hopefully we will see it soon and see some reviews. Crossing fingers....now.

I am eager to have others experiences in this thread. I will be calibrating soon and would like to have the benefit of those in the "know'. This thread is shaping up nicely and should be on fire soon, with additional experiences. I hope my posts are helping those looking to jump in on this/these panels. It is repayment to those(drbonbi, Xcalibur_255 & others from other threads) who helped me find my way and happiness. These panels are both simply AMAZING.

~b3nzon8

I'm going to go to Best Buy today and hound a manager to see if he can come up with anything relating to a release date. Although, I know already I'm going to come away disappointed and frustrated.

JoeWG

05-28-07, 10:42 AM

I picked one of these up a few days ago thanks to the item number listed here. It replaces my Westy 42in 1080P set I bought last year. So all of my comparisons will be over that set. I'm by no means an expert at calibration, or anything like that so I don't have any great settings yet (Gonna go pick up DVE HDDVD and see how that goes). What I can do is list off various devices, and how they have worked.......

Xbox 360-
I have this hooked up via VGA. Picture seems to have less motion blur than the 42 had. Overall picture seems more crisp than the 42 (the 42 had settings that couldn't be changed over the vga input, this set looks like you can change them all). Haven't gotten around to trying it at component yet.

PS3-
On the 42 my PS# had bad handshake issues. Almost any time the screen would change (while loading a game, going back to XMB, etc.) I would have to switch inputs then switch back. Happy to report that here its a quick flicker and its on! Using the 47's preset "Game" setting for now, picture is once again excellent. One small problem, I had the system hooked up on HDMI2 at first but while playing Motorstorm I started to get a flicker effect where the screen would go black for a second, then back to the game. I moved it to HDMI3 now it's gone. Perhaps a bad HDMI input, or just a picky one?

Wii-
This one is at component at 480P. No real difference here, looks as good as a 480P source can. ;)

HD-DVD
Have my A2 hooked up to HDMI1. Everything runs smoothly here as well. The picture does seem slightly "off" to me, but I think it just needs better calibrating. I am using setting's close to the Movie preset on the tv.

Blu-Ray
Also on HDMI1 coming from my surround sound. I have the older Sammy player which had to be forced into 1080P on my 42, and had the sparklies issue. It set itself to 1080P with no problems on this set which is a plus. Picture same as HDDVD needs a bit of calibrating but is otherwise good.

I will work on getting it calibrated better and see about getting some settings on here once I got through the DVE disc.

flabioh

05-28-07, 10:43 AM

Hello flaboih,

Actually, it is the complete opposite.

When Deinterlace is "ENABLED = ON" (in the USER MENU) while using SD or HD content, the result is a purple line(4-5 pixels thick, from the left side to the right of the panel) along the bottom of the panel.
When Deinterlace is DISABLED "OFF " (in the USER MENU), the image shifts down and the Purple line is gone.

NTSC Tuner:

When the SD content is diplayed via the NTSC tuner, the Deinterlace Purple line is at the TOP of the screen.

Deinterlace = ON = No Purple Line (Even when you use the upscale button on "STANDARD", "FILL", "OVERSCAN".

Deinterlace = OFF = Purple Line @ the top of the screen.

The NTSC tuner allows additional content.

~b3nz0n8

How annoying is this purple line? Does it seem like it is already in need of a firmware update?

cozmogeek

05-28-07, 11:31 AM

I calibrated mine last night with digital video essentials.. the color was WAY off out of the box.

Ohgami

05-28-07, 11:48 AM

I calibrated mine last night with digital video essentials.. the color was WAY off out of the box.

Think you can post a list of settings you ended up with so others can use it as a sort of Baseline to adjust from there? Just a suggestion.

nibbs159

05-28-07, 01:31 PM

How annoying is this purple line? Does it seem like it is already in need of a firmware update?

I found it pretty annoying at first but in the long run it's probably less annoying than the flashing white and black bars on some cable channels. It seems like something that could be fixed with a firmware update though.

I've only seen it on 1080i over component. Both my SA 8300 cable box and Xbox have triggered it. I've tried 1080i over hdmi with my DVD player and I don't get the purple line with deinterlace on.

Mikeoz

05-28-07, 01:36 PM

Does the picture quality suffer by just leaving the setting for deinterlace off? Does it actually leave an interlaced signal interlaced w/o this setting on? That would be very strange. :p

flabioh

05-28-07, 01:43 PM

I have some great news! I went to Best Buy today and FINALLY found the 42" TX! The model number is listed as TX-42H430S and the SKU# is 8386285 in Best Buy's system. Because I used the 10% off coupon it was CONSIDERABLY cheaper than online resellers are selling it for. I bought it on the spot. Now the bad news...the Best Buy guy (the first that I've talked to in about a month that seemed to know what he was talking about) said that they are not going to carry this model in my entire Region! So, I had to order it through Best Buy today to be able to use the coupon and it won't be at the store until June 22nd! But, I figure at the price I paid it is worth it to wait another 3 weeks. I've already waited so many months. He did say that they had the TV in stock at a store in Chicago, but there is no way I'm going to drive that far for the TV. Maybe someone interested in the 42" is close to Chicago, so that is why I mention it.

Anyhow, hope that model number and sku number helps someone else out finding the 42". Now, back to anticipation. :)

BENZONATE

05-28-07, 02:12 PM

flabioh

05-28-07, 02:42 PM

LynxFX

05-28-07, 03:23 PM

BENZONATE

05-28-07, 03:41 PM

I'm trying to decide between the 42" and 47". Right now I have an old 1080i only RPTV (40"). I want to replace it but I can't decide if it is worth the extra money for the 47. I sit about 8-10 feet away and my main source will be my PS3 for games and BD movies. Is the extra 5" worth it?

Absolutely. I can confirm..it is well worth it. It makes a huge difference especially at that distance. You will be happy with the 47"

~b3nz0n8

Xcalibur_255

05-28-07, 03:41 PM

I gotta get a dvi-hdmi cable now. You guys think there is a huge difference between 22gauge and 28gauge cables?
On a typical 6-12 ft run no, any cable should be satisfactory. Since none of the other owners seem to be in a position to contribute calibration advice at present it makes the backorder status on my own seem all the more frustrating. :)

Xcalibur_255

05-28-07, 03:45 PM

Please note that the model number at Best Buy is slightly different than it is listed elsewhere online: 42H430S

If you search for this model number on google you get a website that claims to have it in stock. Worth a look!
Beware that letter H! That is not the TX series. Models designated with H are 720p models in the SK series. The 1080p TX series will have the F designation. In this case it appears Best Buy is in error since there is no H430S model from Westinghouse.

Xcalibur_255

05-28-07, 03:52 PM

Does the picture quality suffer by just leaving the setting for deinterlace off? Does it actually leave an interlaced signal interlaced w/o this setting on? That would be very strange. :p
I suspect getting clarification on this setting from Westinghouse would prove a challenge but this is one of those things these companies do that makes me groan. All flatpanel displays MUST deinterlace any incoming signal that is not in a native progressive format. The panel displays images progressively period so whether this setting is on or off is irrelevant and the electronics will convert an interlaced signal to progressive no matter what. It has to. What this probably does is turn 3:2 cadence detection on or off (a.k.a. film mode) and is just really badly named. Unless the software was written very poorly it should be safe to leave the setting on 100% of the time. Proper cadence detection from the software will ensure it is in the correct de-interlacing mode for all types of video material. The purple line everybody is seeing is most likely a bug, one that we can get Westinghouse to fix once we've done some more thorough checking up on it. It reminds me of the bowed screen corner bug on the Olevia 5 series sets with the MTK chipset. The most likely explanation is that somebody got some values wrong when programming and the screen is underscanning slightly by mistake, though that thought is a bit disturbing considering the unit is supposed to be 1:1 mapping signals whenever possible.

It's too early to tell at this point.

Xcalibur_255

05-28-07, 03:59 PM

Hello Xcalibur_255,

I am having difficulty with the TX locking signal with the preset profile created while the LVM was connected. The TX will drop the signal after a few minutes and I will have to go through the reset(LVM & laptop) to recreate a profile again, even when I saved the first one..strange). The LVM automatically locks in the laptop, so no worries there. The TX is another problem.
I do have another desktop system that has a dual dvi card. I will attempt to run this system later. I am performing OS installs on 2 other laptops now and will start the desktops in awhile. I am setting up a KVM system..to make things a bit easier.

Also, when setting the TX to even (50) on most settings...it is way off from the LVM. You are right, something is amiss.

Would you like a factory reset on both? Will this put them on an even playing field, even though the settings are different?

When I get the desktop systems up..I will report and we can test as many images as you need.

One of the images was ported from the local test channel on both cable HD boxes via RGB input to the panels.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

~b3nz0n8
No need to factory reset them. I'm hoping the color temp setting is our culprit, either that or some funky color space conversion issues are present. The whites appear pretty similar on both which is confusing. I doubt it's the tv's doing that is making reds look magenta colored. The TX is displaying a rather massive blue push from something and there's no use figuring out what's causing it until your connectivity issues are resolved. On that front I have little experience to offer due to lack of opportunity. My apologies.

Mikeoz

05-28-07, 04:13 PM

flabioh

05-28-07, 04:59 PM

Beware that letter H! That is not the TX series. Models designated with H are 720p models in the SK series. The 1080p TX series will have the F designation. In this case it appears Best Buy is in error since there is no H430S model from Westinghouse.

Are you sure? My receipt says TX-42H430S and the description says 42" Westinghouse 1080P LCD." If this is somehow a mislabeled 720p Best Buy will suffer my wrath come June 22nd.

BENZONATE

05-28-07, 05:03 PM

Well I ordered a tx47 today, and it should be in the store on Thurs. Apparently they have like 40+ sitting in their warehouse (why I have no damn clue). So we'll see how it looks when it gets here.

Benzonate.. how are the colors on the tx47? You're getting me a little worried that perhaps the red/blues are a little washed out looking, is that the case? You say the blacks are better than the lvm but are the blues/reds bad? Thanks.

Hey Guys,

KEEP IN MIND:

I HAVE NOT CALIBRATED EITHER PANEL(EXCEPT FOR A SMALL USER SETTING VIA THE USER MENU ON BOTH PANELS...BRIGHTNESS, SATURATION, HUE, CONTRAST, ETC TO MATCH THE TO PANELS AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE).

YOU MAY HAVE A VERY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE VIA PERSONAL CALIBRATION.

The LVM47 reds/blues are deeper. Xcalibur_255 mentioned this earlier and he was exactly right. The TX47 reds are more MAGENTA(they cannot reach the depth of the LVM47 CRIMSON through any basic user menu settings). You may be able to find comfortable reds with the user defined (R.G.B.) settings, but I highly doubt you will find the depth of the LVM47.

**NOTE** WHILE USING A BLACK SCREEN with the Backlight @ 95(TX)/90(LVM): The LVM47 has a pinkish tint to the LCD, where the TX47 carries a better, deeper black(that seem to crush a bit, lose detail, via some HD content(direct comparison to the LVM47).

This results in the LVM47 with better reds/blues....I have also notices that the Whites on the LVM seem to be a bit more brilliant(they "pop" as with the depth and detail in comparison to the yellowish/every so slightly smudge of the TX47(calibration?).

All of this in mind, I believe that you can achieve nearly the same image via the TX47(minus the red/blue color depth). Expert calibrators(Xcalibur_255) will turn this inside out when they have theirs.

One other thing I have noticed, the detail on the LVM47 seems to be a bit deeper as well on HD content. Possibly less black crush than the TX47, as you can see the creases in black suit pants in shadows.

The TX47 has a YELLOW tint to it, giving reds a bit more orange look. The yellow is very noticable in the WARM setting. I could not escape this yellow hue/tint in any setting I tried to tweak. I am not experienced with calibration...so don't take my experience too seriously. I do like the red/blue/black/brilliant whites of the LVM47...they are deep and detailed and brilliant.

I have connected the exact same Explorer 3250HD boxes to each set via the component input.

Althought the viewing angle of the LVM47 is not as good and cannot retain the colors/contrast like TX47....

....The LVM47 seems to have a better depth via HD content. By better depth, I mean, clarity(the detail in skin/hair, the whiteness(or lack of) teeth, the brilliance of the sun and shadows of trees on grass(the greens look better/deeper and more detailed).

I say this with each one side by side(TX47/LVM47) without much calibration.

The TX47 seems to be a bit more...smudged in details like the pores in skin and the brilliance of the whites...the whites seem to be a bit more yellow(dirty) than the LVM47....even after I perform many many different calibrations via contrast/brightnes/backlight/etc...

So, when my fiance gets home... it's off to BB to return the TX47 (I'm going to miss it) and have one shipped in(they sold the Floor model LVM47 and they are disappearing fast from BB inventory)

Once again, I do not want to sway anyone from the TX47 or give you a feeling it is not a good panel. The TX47 is a superb panel with a great picture, but to fit my needs(PC use) I need something that will communicate well with the other investment I have (many, many PC's and laptops). I will also save a few hundred dollars which will help me build a HTPC with a dual format HD/BLU-RAY DVD player.

The LVM47 suits my needs for now & the future.

The reason that jumps out at me with the LVM47: ~The detail, shadows, color depth seem to jump out(image depth, water, grass, clouds, etc) that the TX47 can reproduce with slightly less detail. Your experience may be different.

I will miss the SD "OVERSCAN" scaling (which, by the way, can be attained via the HD cable box feature "ZOOM")
~The extensive user calibration
~All the extra inputs/connections
~Tuner
~Internal/External sound system

Another NOTE,

I am having a very difficult time getting any DVI-HDMI via laptop video cards to connect to the TX47.

So, with all of this in mind. The LVM47 is my personal preference.

The Westinghouse website states and "improvement" in technology and "better". The 8ms (TX47) to the 6.5ms response time is academic, but the whites/blacks/reds/blues(and some greens) look amazing. I think they have(soone to be had) something with the LVM47 panel. It has its faults(red washout/decreased viewing angle), but the sheer depth & detail does rival that of the TX47, if not bests it by just a bit.

My opinion and I hope the feedback up to now is helpful. I am interested in hearing the experiences of those with a bit more knowledge and extensive calibration backgrounds.

The TX47 is an excellent TV with excellent "Monitor" capabilities....it may shine in the arena of "ALL THAT IS HD"...and many different platforms(XBOX 360, PS3, Blu-Ray, HD DVD...etc)..

I do not have those platforms, so I am unable to provide feedback, other than PC and HD Cable via component input.

Thats it for now....off to BB to start the process.

~b3nz0n8

flabioh

05-28-07, 05:16 PM

Thanks BENZONATE for all your insights and hard work comparing the two models.

Did you ever get a chance to test the sound options of the TX? It concerns me that Huggybear was reporting only two channel output via the optical out.

I intend to hook up my cable directly to the TV and output all sound via optical to my receiver. If I receive an unencrypted HDTV signal I would assume that there would be 5.1 sound on that transmission and I'd like to have that 5.1 output through my receiver properly. Anyone else happen to test this?

Mr. Frog

05-28-07, 06:57 PM

Just got back from ordering a TX47. This after a year of saving and a good 8 or 9 months of intense research. There have been more twists, turns and last minute reversals than a murder mystery, but now the long struggle has ended. The relief is enormous, kind of like finally finding a bathroom when you really need to... never mind.

I'd like to thank my manager, my publicist, and a special thanks goes out to everybody on this thread and the anticipation thread, particularly Xcalibur_255, as well as everybody on the LVM47 thread (which is what got me on the whole Westinghouse kick in the first place).

And we all owe a huge debt of gratitude to BENZONATE (and his fiance) for going way above and beyond.

Christ, if I've made the right choice, maybe I can finally stay the hell off these boards and watch some t.v.

LynxFX

05-28-07, 07:08 PM

Absolutely. I can confirm..it is well worth it. It makes a huge difference expecially at that distance. You will be happy with the 47"

~b3nz0n8
Thanks, looks like I'll save up for the TX47. I'm hoping to pick it up around July. Perhaps there will be another BB coupon day by then. ;)

flabioh

05-28-07, 07:23 PM

Watch TV? Why would you want to do that? It is far more fun running test patterns and finding the perfect calibration to know that when you actually USE the TV it will be the best. :)

Mr. Frog

05-28-07, 07:51 PM

Watch TV? Why would you want to do that? It is far more fun running test patterns and finding the perfect calibration to know that when you actually USE the TV it will be the best. :)

Yeah, nothin' on anyway... ;)

DReborn

05-28-07, 08:03 PM

so where else can i get the 42" TX? online, in store? Im located in SoCal and i might just bite the bullet and get a good deal on the lvm-42w2

thepsychochiapet

05-28-07, 08:08 PM

To flabioh: If you don't mind, how much did BB ask for the tx-42?

2panther

05-28-07, 08:43 PM

I walked in to Best Buy with my 42" LVM monitor and walked out with the TX-47F430S today on an even exchange by utilizing my PSP from them that I got when purchased the set.

So far no issues, looks great. 1080p works great with no issues from my 360 Elite via HDMI, HD content on TV (time warner) looks great. I couldn't have asked for anything more.

huggybear

05-28-07, 09:16 PM

Well, I'm back from the coast. Hope everyone had a great long weekend! I sure did, though of course a part of me missed my TX-47 and wanted to get home ;)

BENZONATE - Thanks for your very informative posts - I'm sure anyone trying to decide between the TX and LVM series will find them invaluable! It appears that the LVM line is a better choice if you are looking to use the set primarily as a computer monitor.

Well, I'm watching CSI Miami right now and though the picture is simply amazing, I can still only output 2 channel audio via the SPDIF passthrough. I know it is being broadcast in DD 5.1 so it appears that the TX is only capable of passing through 2 channels via the SPDIF out. Tomorrow I will hook up an antenna instead of QAM cable just to confirm. If it is a limitation, hopefully it can be addressed via a firmware update.

This week I will try some menu optimizations (though I gotta say I am quite pleased with the picture right out of the box).

flabioh

05-28-07, 09:45 PM

To flabioh: If you don't mind, how much did BB ask for the tx-42?

Check your PM for the exact price. For everyone else I believe the retail price of the 42"is $1399. I assume this is not against forum rules as that is basically what it is going for everywhere online. I, of course, did not pay retail price with the sales and coupons going on. But, hopefully that gives you an idea. In my opinion, I think it is worth it to buy from Best Buy just so you can return it within 30 days if something goes horribly wrong. You also don't have to mess around with a monkey man-handling your package in shipment. The only con I can see of getting the 42" from BB is that you have to wait a freakin' long time to get it if you live out in the middle of no where like I do.

jbradg

05-28-07, 09:46 PM

flabioh

05-28-07, 10:01 PM

My experience with DD5.1 has not been good. First, it appears the Time Warner 8300HD DVR won't pass DD5.1 out the HDMI port to the TX 47 then onto my receiver, even with the TV set at External for the audio. My new upconvert DVD connected via HDMI behaves the same way... no DD5.1 passthrough to my receiver. I did have a Samsung that was giving me other grief that would pass it through if I selected the bitstream mode instead of PCM, but the TV wouldn't play the audio (didn't care though) and I did get a message breifly that said HDMI audio not supported. But, I had other locking up issues with that DVD player.

So, my experience with HDMI hasn't been a good one when it comes to audio. I could go with an HDMI "aware" receiver, but I think I will just switch the video with the TV and run all the audio optically directly to my receiver.

I've been happy with the TX 47 picture-wise, so far. Good color and great viewing angles, which was important to me in my room.

It makes the most sense to keep audio and video separate anyway. The only reason that I would need to run audio through the TX is for the QAM tuning (since I don't have nor plan to buy an external tuner). It isn't going to absolutely kill me to not have surround sound through the TX, I just think it is pointless to have an optical out on a TV when all it is passing is two channel audio. I'm really hoping a firmware update fixes this issue. With the new USB service port hopefully this won't be all that painful. Speaking of which, has anyone confirmed that this really is supposed to be as simple as just plugging in a USB memory stick with the firmware loaded on it and turn on the TV to flash the firmware? I read a long time ago that it is supposed to be that simple.

Ace_of_Sevens

05-28-07, 10:34 PM

I got mine yesterday. Best Buy had marked it down to 1804.99, so with the 12% off coupon, I made out like a bandit.

I can't seem to get the damn thing to tune to QAM. I know there is a QAM signal because my previous TV, a Sanyo tube, could tune to it just fine. Doing a cable scan only gives me analog channels, though and the manual isn't exactly helpful about which tuning modes do what.

On 480P fill mode, I seem to get 0% overscan on the sides of the picture, but about 5% on the top and bottom. Is there any way to fix this?

When calibrating with DVE, I was able to get the blue nearly perfect and the red pretty close, but the green seems significantly off. I can see green in what's supposedly a magenta secton of the test pattern when using the filters.

Black levels are nowhere near actually black, but I suppose that's just how LCDs are. I'd rather have that than a picture which will be notable degraded in 4 years or so.

There are no dead or stuck pixels so far as I can see.

I get visual ringing with 1080P sources on component. I assume this isn't the TVs fault. It's my switch, but I'd hate to have to reach around the TV whenever I want to switch sources. I may just have to upgrade to a 360 Elite.

huggybear

05-28-07, 10:47 PM

huggybear

05-28-07, 10:51 PM

cozmogeek

05-28-07, 11:55 PM

On 480P fill mode, I seem to get 0% overscan on the sides of the picture, but about 5% on the top and bottom. Is there any way to fix this?

That sounds like the same problem I had. If your dvd player hooked up via component is set to 16:9 you shouldn't even need to use fill mode to make the image fill the screen. I think this set has an ugly firmware bug.

Has anybody got a dvd player connected via component to fill the screen in "normal" mode?

Ace_of_Sevens

05-29-07, 12:14 AM

Mikeoz

05-29-07, 12:31 AM

I got mine yesterday. Best Buy had marked it down to 1804.99, so with the 12% off coupon, I made out like a bandit.

You guys are lucky. The best buy I go to seems to be pretty anal and careful about pricing, etc. They read the coupon carefully and gave me the discount off the regular price, not the sale price. :o I can't complain since that's how it's stated on the coupon, and it'll be in on thursday.

My personal experience w/ best buy has been horrible in general, and I'm glad you guys have had better luck. The service always seems to be piss poor, and seems like they could give a damn about the customer. I personally didn't even want to goto bestbuy to purchase the tx47, but they're the only ones carrying it now. :rolleyes:

cozmogeek

05-29-07, 01:17 AM

@cosmogeek: component doesn't have offline signaling to say what teh aspect ration is. You'd have to manually change it no matter what TV you have unless you have a player that's doing the changes itself.

No luck on the QAM. I just scanned a third time, and as before there are no QAM channels coming up.

Have you actually tried it on this set? I think it is broken. It is adding the bars to the sides of my picture when it shouldn't be.

It is most certainly NOT functioning the way I expect and have experienced with the other 3 16:9 tvs I've owned nor the many others I've helped other people setup.

The only way I could get it to get it to fill the screen (not have the bars on the sides) is to use the fill mode, which is not correct since it chops off a huge portion of the top and bottom of the picture.

It looks like the aspect ratio is correct for about a half a second then the screen switches and the bars get added to the sides.

Ok I just tried it and as soon as I switch my xbox360 to 480p it adds the side bars when set to "Normal". I thought maybe it was my old dvd player so I tried the xbox just to make sure. The Fill mode chops off a non-trivial amount of the top and bottom of the screen. If this was working correctly it wouldn't have to since the image is the perfect shape to fit the screen in the first place.

EDIT:
I just submitted an online help thing to westinghouse describing this problem. I'll report back what I hear from them.

Ace_of_Sevens

05-29-07, 01:41 AM

Normal always adds bars to the sides. Different sets call the modes different things, but these are teh same modes I've seen on every widescreen TV. Normal is for 4:3 material. Fill is for 16:9 material, but it seems to lose about 5% each on the top and bottom. I think the problem isn't that there's supposed to be another mode that doesn't do this, but that this isn't supposed to do that.

nibbs159

05-29-07, 10:17 AM

My experience with DD5.1 has not been good. First, it appears the Time Warner 8300HD DVR won't pass DD5.1 out the HDMI port to the TX 47 then onto my receiver, even with the TV set at External for the audio. My new upconvert DVD connected via HDMI behaves the same way... no DD5.1 passthrough to my receiver. I did have a Samsung that was giving me other grief that would pass it through if I selected the bitstream mode instead of PCM, but the TV wouldn't play the audio (didn't care though) and I did get a message breifly that said HDMI audio not supported. But, I had other locking up issues with that DVD player.

So, my experience with HDMI hasn't been a good one when it comes to audio. I could go with an HDMI "aware" receiver, but I think I will just switch the video with the TV and run all the audio optically directly to my receiver.

Does anyone know if the HDMI handshake negociates different audio formats? If this is the case, I believe the TV is negociating stereo pcm with devices over HDMI. I did some testing with my cable box and dvd player yesterday and they would only send stereo audio over HDMI to the TV which then passed it to my receiver. Perhaps a firmware update could allow us to set which sort of audio is negociated over HDMI. On the other hand, the TV might need a dolby digital decoder otherwise they could end up with a lot of customer confusion as to why they don't get dolby digital audio from their TV speakers...

alucard_x

05-29-07, 11:05 AM

I walked in to Best Buy with my 42" LVM monitor and walked out with the TX-47F430S today on an even exchange by utilizing my PSP from them that I got when purchased the set.

What's a 'PSP'?

flabioh

05-29-07, 11:31 AM

What's a 'PSP'?

I believe he is referring to the Play Station Portable.

flabioh

05-29-07, 11:41 AM

Does anyone know if the HDMI handshake negociates different audio formats? If this is the case, I believe the TV is negociating stereo pcm with devices over HDMI. I did some testing with my cable box and dvd player yesterday and they would only send stereo audio over HDMI to the TV which then passed it to my receiver. Perhaps a firmware update could allow us to set which sort of audio is negociated over HDMI. On the other hand, the TV might need a dolby digital decoder otherwise they could end up with a lot of customer confusion as to why they don't get dolby digital audio from their TV speakers...

From my understanding HDMI does negotiate different audio modes. However, I believe the problem is deeper than HDMI since the QAM tuner also outputs 2 channels instead of 5.1. I believe it to be something wrong with whatever is driving the optical output of the TV. I don't see any reason why this would not be fixable through a firmware update. Hopefully HuggyBear gets somewhere with Westinghouse Support.

FFMooglestar

05-29-07, 11:45 AM

Hey everyone, I just purchased the TX47 over the weekend, and am really enjoying it.

I believe he is referring to the Play Station Portable.

or perhaps a typo and he meant PRP (Product Replacement Plan).

I calibrated mine last night with digital video essentials.. the color was WAY off out of the box.

If you get a chance, could you post the numbers your DVE disc came up with? Right now I'm just using the "Enhanced" setting mode, and I'd like to see if I could get a better picture by going off your numbers.

flabioh

05-29-07, 11:52 AM

or perhaps a typo and he meant PRP (Product Replacement Plan).

That makes WAY more sense. :)

Glad you are enjoying the TV. I would appreciate the calibration settings as well.

jbradg

05-29-07, 12:26 PM

What's a 'PSP'?

BB has 2 types of service plans, depending on the product. PRP is a Product Replacement Plan... usually small, inexpensive items, or a PSP which is a Product Service Plan, meaning they will fix or only replace if they cannot fix or not in their best interest to fix. I believe items that fall under a PRP only get replaced one time during the warranty period. Also, proceed with caution when a BB employee tells you about items or services covered in a service plan. Make sure you read it in the documentation or call the warranty company to check any particular coverage if you have concerns before purchasing the warranty. I believe you can also return the warranty within 30 days.

jbradg

05-29-07, 12:39 PM

flabioh

05-29-07, 12:55 PM

My cable box manual states (not to be taken as fact because Time Warner may have modified some of its capabilities) that if I put the HD DVR in DD mode, it will send DD out all the ports, including the HDMI port. A friend of mine also stated that his understanding is that HDMI does negotiate the audio capabilites of the first device it is connected to. I am hoping Westinghouse does make a fix so that maybe if you select External for the audio, it just passes the audio (DD5.1) directly to the device attached to the digital out connection without interfering with it.

The only potential problem I could see with that is that there are two audio outputs on the TX: Digital and Analog. The Analog is obviously 2-channel through RCA so if you tried to pass the DD5.1 out of the analog outputs it definitely wouldn't work. Has anyone tested the analog out to see if it works at all. Maybe ProLogicII audio would suffice until this get resolved. Maybe they screwed something up between the two audio outputs?

jbradg

05-29-07, 12:58 PM

The only potential problem I could see with that is that there are two audio outputs on the TX: Digital and Analog. The Analog is obviously 2-channel through RCA so if you tried to pass the DD5.1 out of the analog outputs it definitely wouldn't work. Has anyone tested the analog out to see if it works at all. Maybe ProLogicII audio would suffice until this get resolved. Maybe they screwed something up between the two audio outputs?

Good point. I'll try the 2-channel RCA connection to my receiver tonight.

cozmogeek

05-29-07, 01:19 PM

jbradg

05-29-07, 01:25 PM

cozmogeek

05-29-07, 01:43 PM

You know, I've had that HDMI source issue at least twice. It wouldn't lock onto the HDMI source when I was switching back and forth between devices. As for the power off, you can change it to Energy Save mode (or something like that) in the power menu. However, it sure takes a long time for the TV to come on when in that setting, but I've left it in energy save mode.

Well we're used to my projector so the tv turning on the "slow" way is still way faster than my pj lamp warming up.

huggybear

05-29-07, 01:50 PM

From my understanding HDMI does negotiate different audio modes. However, I believe the problem is deeper than HDMI since the QAM tuner also outputs 2 channels instead of 5.1. I believe it to be something wrong with whatever is driving the optical output of the TV. I don't see any reason why this would not be fixable through a firmware update. Hopefully HuggyBear gets somewhere with Westinghouse Support.

I emailed Westinghouse about the SPDIF audio out... I mentioned this site and how this is a concern to many people contemplating buying a unit so hopefully I get a good response.

This is my understanding of how the audio works -

In the menu, you can select whether HDMI uses digital or analog audio. If you select digital, the TX expects to receive audio as well as video from the HDMI input. If you select analog, the RCA audio inputs that go with the HDMI connection are activated and the TX expects to receive the audio from there. This would be used if you are only passing video via the hdmi connection.

I don't believe that this has anything to do with the SPDIF output... if you select the speakers as "mixed" or "external", audio will be passed via the SPDIF out.

I was under the impression that the SPDIF out ONLY passes audio that is coming in from the tuner - I didn't even think it would pass audio coming in from another source such as HDMI ... so far I have only been able to get 2 channel audio from the SPDIF out from the tuner - it did not pass audio that was coming in from my PS3 via HDMI.

Has anyone passed audio out of the SPDIF out from a source other than the tuner?

Xcalibur_255

05-29-07, 01:59 PM

On 480P fill mode, I seem to get 0% overscan on the sides of the picture, but about 5% on the top and bottom. Is there any way to fix this?

When calibrating with DVE, I was able to get the blue nearly perfect and the red pretty close, but the green seems significantly off. I can see green in what's supposedly a magenta secton of the test pattern when using the filters.

Black levels are nowhere near actually black, but I suppose that's just how LCDs are. I'd rather have that than a picture which will be notable degraded in 4 years or so.

There are no dead or stuck pixels so far as I can see.

I get visual ringing with 1080P sources on component. I assume this isn't the TVs fault. It's my switch, but I'd hate to have to reach around the TV whenever I want to switch sources. I may just have to upgrade to a 360 Elite.
Fill mode includes overscan and this is deliberate by design. You shouldn't ever need to use FILL unless the noise present at the edges of analog broadcasts bothers you. STANDARD is your friend, unless you want to stretch the image with the strangely named OVERSCAN mode.

Note that the calibration screen in DVE you reference is meant to set color and tint using only the blue channel. There is a little bit of overlap on those color bars so that might be what's confusing you with the green/magenta thing. The colors are there to indicate color decoding accuracy via use of the filters. If the red bar looks identical to the background when viewed through the red filter then red decoding is accurate on the set. Same for green. If this is what you've checked then that is troubling. Green decoding push is bad news.

Yes the blacks will visibly glow, but this is greatly reduced by using the proper amount of backlighting for your viewing environment. Unless you have the room lighting on the backlight should always be set to the minimum setting for a dim room. Even this is still too bright for movie viewing.

If you see ringing it means you're introducing edge enhancement through the sharpness control. That control should be set to 0 unless Westinghouse has chosen to (stupidly) set the zero point at the middle of the scale, in this case 50.

jbradg

05-29-07, 02:03 PM

I emailed Westinghouse about the SPDIF audio out... I mentioned this site and how this is a concern to many people contemplating buying a unit so hopefully I get a good response.

This is my understanding of how the audio works -

In the menu, you can select whether HDMI uses digital or analog audio. If you select digital, the TX expects to receive audio as well as video from the HDMI input. If you select analog, the RCA audio inputs that go with the HDMI connection are activated and the TX expects to receive the audio from there. This would be used if you are only passing video via the hdmi connection.

I don't believe that this has anything to do with the SPDIF output... if you select the speakers as "mixed" or "external", audio will be passed via the SPDIF out.

I was under the impression that the SPDIF out ONLY passes audio that is coming in from the tuner - I didn't even think it would pass audio coming in from another source such as HDMI ... so far I have only been able to get 2 channel audio from the SPDIF out from the tuner - it did not pass audio that was coming in from my PS3 via HDMI.

Has anyone passed audio out of the SPDIF out from a source other than the tuner?

I am able to get audio out the SPDIF connector from an HDMI source, but it's 2-channel audio... my TWC HD DVR and my new Sony upconvert DVD player. However, when I had my Samsung upconvert DVD player connected HDMI and had it configured what it called Bitstream, instead of PCM, it DID play DD5.1 to my receiver, but no sound out of the TV, even in the Mixed setting. I also got a message on the screen (I think from the DVD player) that stated HDMI audio not supported, but it did work. Weird, I know.

cozmogeek

05-29-07, 02:07 PM

cavalry12

05-29-07, 02:29 PM

Fill mode includes overscan and this is deliberate by design. You shouldn't ever need to use FILL unless the noise present at the edges of analog broadcasts bothers you. STANDARD is your friend, unless you want to stretch the image with the strangely named OVERSCAN mode.

Note that the calibration screen in DVE you reference is meant to set color and tint using only the blue channel. There is a little bit of overlap on those color bars so that might be what's confusing you with the green/magenta thing. The colors are there to indicate color decoding accuracy via use of the filters. If the red bar looks identical to the background when viewed through the red filter then red decoding is accurate on the set. Same for green. If this is what you've checked then that is troubling. Green decoding push is bad news.

Yes the blacks will visibly glow, but this is greatly reduced by using the proper amount of backlighting for your viewing environment. Unless you have the room lighting on the backlight should always be set to the minimum setting for a dim room. Even this is still too bright for movie viewing.

If you see ringing it means you're introducing edge enhancement through the sharpness control. That control should be set to 0 unless Westinghouse has chosen to (stupidly) set the zero point at the middle of the scale, in this case 50.

Keeping standard mode engaged is the way to go when employing hi-def sources, but it becomes a problem when using 480i/480p sources. The only way to fill the whole screen is by using "Fill" mode. For example, if I'm playing an Xbox game which outputs in 16:9, I'd have to use "Fill" mode in order to fill the entire screen and get the correct aspect ratio. Why they would want to introduce 5% overscan on top and bottom is beyond me.

I currently use the 47W1 and when fed 16:9 480i/480p, the only thing Fill does is to stretch the image across the entire screen without introducing any overscan, which is how it should be. Hopefully, a firmware upgrade can address the issue on the TX series.

milicz

05-29-07, 02:38 PM

That's what I've been saying. However, connect a 16:9 source to the component input (480p or 480i) and the tv will add the black bars to the sides when in "normal" mode.

That's because their is no such thing as a 16:9 480p or 480i source. Widescreen DVD's are actually encoded in 4:3 and they are then stretched to 16:9 proportions.

cavalry12

05-29-07, 02:39 PM

That's what I've been saying. However, connect a 16:9 source to the component input (480p or 480i) and the tv will add the black bars to the sides when in "normal" mode.

That is how it works, at least on the 47W1. The display does not know the aspect ratio of the incoming signal when fed 480i/480p. In "Normal" mode, it will ALWAYS display a 480i/480p signal in 4:3 format with black bars on the sides. If the incoming signal is 4:3, then the aspect ratio will be correct, but if the incoming signal is 16:9, the image will be distorted. The only way to get the proper image with incoming 16:9 480i/480p signal will be by using "Fill" mode.

The unfortunate part about using "Fill" mode on the new TX set is the introduction of 5% overscan on top and bottom. LVM-47W1 does not exhibit this behavior.

That's because their is no such thing as a 16:9 480p or 480i source. Widescreen DVD's are actually encoded in 4:3 and they are then stretched to 16:9 proportions.

Nevertheless, the problem persists. Just because dvd movies are encoded in 4:3 has no bearing on the current problem with this TX set. You still have to use the "Fill" option to fit the 16:9 image being output by the dvd player or a game console across the entire screen without any geometry distortions. While doing that, you are losing 5% of the image on top and bottom.

nibbs159

05-29-07, 02:50 PM

I am able to get audio out the SPDIF connector from an HDMI source, but it's 2-channel audio... my TWC HD DVR and my new Sony upconvert DVD player. However, when I had my Samsung upconvert DVD player connected HDMI and had it configured what it called Bitstream, instead of PCM, it DID play DD5.1 to my receiver, but no sound out of the TV, even in the Mixed setting. I also got a message on the screen (I think from the DVD player) that stated HDMI audio not supported, but it did work. Weird, I know.

I can second this. My Scientific Atlanta 8300 cable box was sending stereo audio over HDMI which was then passed through SPDIF to my receiver. I could not get Dolby Digital over HDMI regardless of what settings I used on the cable box.

My upconverting Sony DVD player also sent stereo audio over HDMI which was then passed through SPDIF. I could not get this to send a 5.1 signal either.

The Samsung situation mentioned by jbradg makes sense. Setting the DVD player to Bitstream passed the Dolby Digital to the TV and the TV passed it to the receiver. The TV did not play the audio, probably because it doesn't have a dolby digital decoder. Additionally, the HDMI audio handshaking determined that the TV wouldn't be able to play the Dolby Digital, hence the error message that HDMI audio was not supported. Does this sound right?

HUMM3

05-29-07, 03:15 PM

i'm beginning to think that hdmi can be more of a problem than it's worth. i mean all it really does is reduce the number of cables. i tend to stay away from it. :)

You know, I've had that HDMI source issue at least twice. It wouldn't lock onto the HDMI source when I was switching back and forth between devices. As for the power off, you can change it to Energy Save mode (or something like that) in the power menu. However, it sure takes a long time for the TV to come on when in that setting, but I've left it in energy save mode.

wmcclain

05-29-07, 03:33 PM

That's because their is no such thing as a 16:9 480p or 480i source. Widescreen DVD's are actually encoded in 4:3 and they are then stretched to 16:9 proportions.

That's not quite right. Both 4:3 and 16:9 source formats have been available to DVDs from day 1. Many older widescreen titles are encoded as 4:3 letterboxed, but all anamorphic titles are encoded 16:9.

480i/p signals can be 16:9.

-Bill

aindik

05-29-07, 03:37 PM

That's because their is no such thing as a 16:9 480p or 480i source. Widescreen DVD's are actually encoded in 4:3 and they are then stretched to 16:9 proportions.

Apparently, some DVD players know how to tell a TV that it should stretch this content, and some TVs know how to listen for that signal. Apparently, these Westinghouse TVs don't know how to listen for that message, so they display everything they get that's 4:3 in a 4:3 box, unless you use "Fill."

One workaround is to use an upconverting DVD player. If the DVD player is sending a 720p, 1080i or 1080p signal, the TV will think that's a widescreen signal and display the picture properly.

cozmogeek

05-29-07, 03:40 PM

One workaround is to use an upconverting DVD player. If the DVD player is sending a 720p, 1080i or 1080p signal, the TV will think that's a widescreen signal and display the picture properly.

That is exactly what I ended up doing. I pulled the upconverting/HDMI dvd player from my bedroom and retired my old RP91 until my HD-DVD player comes which should be tomorrow. Sending 720p from that dvd has given me no trouble.

pete4

05-29-07, 03:44 PM

i'm beginning to think that hdmi can be more of a problem than it's worth. i mean all it really does is reduce the number of cables. i tend to stay away from it. :)

HDMI was designed for studios to protect their content and had nothing to do with providing customers with better quality video or any other crap like that.
Here is article that explains some of it:
http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/whats-the-matter-with-hdmi
It won't be easy to stay away from HDMI, but I do miss DVI ports that older sets have and are missing on TX line.

milicz

05-29-07, 03:46 PM

That's not quite right. Both 4:3 and 16:9 source formats have been available to DVDs from day 1. Many older widescreen titles are encoded as 4:3 letterboxed, but all anamorphic titles are encoded 16:9.

480i/p signals can be 16:9.

-Bill

I'm not an expert, but from what I have read all 480i/p signals are 4:3, they are encoded squished so that they will look good in a letterbox format. That's why you tell your DVD player what kind of TV it is outputting to. Tell your DVD player that the TV is widescreen when it is not and you should get a squished fullscreen picture. The TX simply keeps all 480i/p material in its native 4:3 format.

Apparently, some DVD players know how to tell a TV that it should stretch this content, and some TVs know how to listen for that signal. Apparently, these Westinghouse TVs don't know how to listen for that message, so they display everything they get that's 4:3 in a 4:3 box, unless you use "Fill."

One workaround is to use an upconverting DVD player. If the DVD player is sending a 720p, 1080i or 1080p signal, the TV will think that's a widescreen signal and display the picture properly.

Bingo! That's what I do with my LVM even though I don't have an overscan issue, I suggest getting the DVP5982 as it is ridiculously cheap at BB right now.

Mikeoz

05-29-07, 04:37 PM

Ok, so people are saying that the Fill mode crops 5% on the top and bottom, so that's 10% total?

Also, does it crop or stretch the image vertically? Because if it crops 5% top and bottom, that means it's zooming in on the image and cropping the sides slightly as well. Although yes this may not be a concern for many people, I will find this very irritating if it overscans alot. I can live with a little overscan, but if it's ~10% overall, that might be a little much.

I am still running a non-upconverting dvd player and play an xbox from time to time. I will be getting a ps3 in a few months, but I just got a Wii and I'd hate if too much of the image was cropped. I guess we'll see when I get it in a couple days...

Ace_of_Sevens

05-29-07, 06:21 PM

The sides are uncropped. So it's stretching vertically, but not by any obscene amount. It's the lost picture that bothers me.

milicz: no signal is in any aspect ratio. It's not like film where it's a physical object. It's purely a matter of what the software and hardware do with when decoding it. 4x3 was the standard for a while, but the information is no more a particular aspect ratio than it is a particular size. Neither 4:3 nor 16:9 DVDs use square pixel, though HD formats do. There are plenty of 480p sources that are supposed to be widescreen. Westinghouse needs to fix this.

BENZONATE

05-29-07, 06:30 PM

I think I found another firmware problem this morning.

When my wife tried to turn the tv on it wouldn't recognize anything plugged into the HDMI ports. My dvd player and cable box wouldn't work. The TV acted like there was no signal. My component in was still working, but the HDMI wouldn't work until I pulled the power plug on the tv to reset it.

Hello again,

Its been a wild ride, but I'm back.

This sounds like the "NO SIGNAL DETECTED" issue I was getting after plugging my DELL E1705 (Nvidia GO 7800 & GO 7800 GTX video cards) via DVI-HDMI to the TX47.

After a short time(a minute or so)....the laptop(s) would shut down, for absolutely no reason(HDCP kickback signal from the TX47 via HDMI?).

I, then, would power the laptop and try to reconnect the DVI-HDMI cable & the adjust the Nvidia display settings without any luck...and again, "NO SIGNAL DETECTED" on the HDMI input.

Also, I did receive the same issue while connecting my HD Cable receiver (Explorer 3250HD) via DVI-HDMI cable...it would display a signal for a second or two and then kick back an error code "Your HDTV does not support HDCP, please use component input"

This does not happen with either of the LVM47 I have now.
This is the primary reason I returned the TX47 for another(the last one in my state) LVM47 model.

In addition, the LVM47 shines as a PC MONITOR and handles deep crimson,blue/blacks and brilliant whites well.

I did not test this fix, prior to my TX47 exchange for the last LVM47 in my state(Floor Model with FIRMWARE(1.04)

BAH! This firmware(1.04) carries the dreaded remote recognition failure, so it is incredibly hard to use the remote with this firmware. By the way, The other LVM-47w1 has FIRMWARE 1.05 and it works great!):

" but the HDMI wouldn't work until I pulled the power plug on the tv to reset it. "

I am interested in hearing what solutions have been found, firmware updates and other experiences.

~b3nz0n8

thepsychochiapet

05-29-07, 06:46 PM

So, how does this set handle 480p/i material? Would it be worth it for me to buy an upconverting dvd player or could I continue to use my old sony 480i player with good results?

2panther

05-29-07, 06:50 PM

anyone have some calibration settings for this set using HDMI 1?

milicz

05-29-07, 07:11 PM

milicz: no signal is in any aspect ratio. It's not like film where it's a physical object. It's purely a matter of what the software and hardware do with when decoding it. 4x3 was the standard for a while, but the information is no more a particular aspect ratio than it is a particular size. Neither 4:3 nor 16:9 DVDs use square pixel, though HD formats do. There are plenty of 480p sources that are supposed to be widescreen. Westinghouse needs to fix this.

Like I said, I'm not an expert, but this is straight from the most trusted source on the net :p Wikipedia:

Anamorphic widescreen is a video encoding technique used to optimize the vertical picture resolution of widescreen images by squeezing these horizontally into a 4:3 native aspect ratio.

DVDs using anamorphic widescreen make effective use of the available resolution, as well as allowing a film to automatically expand to fit widescreen television sets. Anamorphic widescreen DVDs make more optimal use of vertical resolution by avoiding or decreasing wasted lines on the black letterboxing bars. This is accomplished by electronically scaling the 16:9 image to the DVD-standard 4:3 ratio (with either NTSC or PAL resolution). This creates a vertical stretching of the image, as the horizontal pixel resolution is always at full-width. Sources that are close to 16:9 can be transferred to DVD taking up the entire 16:9 frame with no wasted space.

cozmogeek

05-29-07, 07:13 PM

So, how does this set handle 480p/i material? Would it be worth it for me to buy an upconverting dvd player or could I continue to use my old sony 480i player with good results?

Go read the previous couple pages of this thread. It basically doesn't handle it at all. The fill mode required to make 16:9 480p/i material fit on the screen looks bad, and crops the top and bottom off the picture.

Ace_of_Sevens

05-29-07, 09:16 PM

I've emailed Westinghouse to complain about the green push, the fill mode and my inability to receive QAM. I'll keep you posted.

huggybear

05-29-07, 10:35 PM

Good news - I can confirm that the TX-47's SPDIF output IS capable of passing through DD 5.1 surround sound! I was able to get the TX-47 to ouput DD 5.1 from my PS3.

First, under Settings->BD/DVD Settings, I changed BD/DVD Audio Ouput Format (HDMI) to "Bitstream". Then, under Settings->Sound Settings->Audio Ouput Settings->HDMI, I chose "Manual" as the method for setting the output format. Once you choose Manual you are taken to a long list of output formats where you individually select the ones you wish to enable. Linear PCM 2 Ch. 44.1khz and 48khz are selected by default and cannot be unselected. Here I also selected "Dolby Digital 5.1 Ch." and "DTS 5.1 Ch." and tada - I was playing Ridge Racer 7 in 1080p with 5.1 DD surround and grinning from ear to ear :)

However, I am not overly thrilled about this because with most devices (such as the PS3) you could easily run an optical cable directly to your audio receiver. I am much more concerned about the fact that I still have not been able to pass through 5.1 surround from the tuner - I have tried with both QAM and OTA... they both only pass through 2 channels, even though I know the show was being broadcast in 5.1. Obviously when using the tuner there are no other audio options... so unless the TX wants to play nice and pass through 5.1, we are out of luck!!

At any rate, at least we know that it isn't a hardware limitation.... hopefully Westinghouse gets back to me soon.

pkscout

05-29-07, 10:50 PM

cbeyond

05-29-07, 11:32 PM

BENZONATE

05-30-07, 01:20 AM

I am confused as to which input to connect my pc's graphic card to.
I could get a DVI TO HDMI cable and connect to the TVs HDMI input.
That would be a digital connection instead of the analogue VGA input.
But why wouldn't Westinghouse tell us that in the manual? Maybe
there is no significant difference?

Hello cbeyond,

Check out this thread(link below) and POST #969 (with picture)

LINK:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=828932&page=33&pp=30

~"On both the TX & LVM lines...I also receive some blur. I can compare this to the DVI-DVI output from my Dell E1705(Nvidia GO 7800 video card) to the LVM-47w1.

VGA-VGA results in a slight text blur, as if the red is offset a bit. This is on both the TX & LVM series and produce the same results.

(PICTURE OF TX-47F430s text blur ~ this also occurs via VGA on the LVM-47w1):

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/220/513129941_d86a89a132_b.jpg

DVI-DVI is simply *CRYSTAL CLEAR* on the (LVM-47w1)

My Setup(s):
Dell E1705/9400's with:
Video card: Nvidia GO 7800 & Nvidia GO 7800 GTX

Both work via VGA-VGA with multiple resolutions to choose from and adjustemtents in the menu.

SUCCESS with the GO 7800 via (LVM-47w1) :
1) DVI-DVI (LOOKS ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC)
2) DVI-HDMI (LOOKS ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC)
3) VGA-VGA (LVM-47w1) & (TX-47F430s) with BLUR (text & photo)

SUCCESS with the GO 7800 GTX:
1) VGA-VGA (ONLY) with BLUR(text & photo)

I will be testing all weekend...more to come.

~b3nz0n8

BENZONATE

05-30-07, 01:26 AM

BENZONATE, thanks for all the info. One favor. Could you not post in multi-color unless there is a really specific compelling reason. If you're using the default god awful ugly black and yellow theme I guess it looks fine, but if you change the theme (as I have) your posts become practically unreadable, especially white and yellow text.

My apologies pkscout,

All of those lengthy, colorful posts may have you feeling a bit woozy. I've been using the color as a quick reference for those pouring through the thread. I'll employ another method in the future. Thanks for the heads up,

~b3nz0n8

cozmogeek

05-30-07, 01:55 AM

VGA-VGA results in a slight text blur, as if the red is offset a bit. This is on both the TX & LVM series and produce the same results.

(PICTURE OF TX-47F430s text blur ~ this also occurs via VGA on the LVM-47w1):

FWIW I connected my laptop via VGA cable to the TX and looked very closely trying to find what you show in the picture and saw no sign of color seperation even when sticking my face right up to the screen running 1920x1080. It looked very clear. The WMV-HD 1080p samples blew me away.

BENZONATE

05-30-07, 02:02 AM

FWIW I connected my laptop via VGA cable to the TX and looked very closely trying to find what you show in the picture and saw no sign of color seperation even when sticking my face right up to the screen running 1920x1080. It looked very clear. The WMV-HD 1080p samples blew me away.

That is excellent! Xcalibur_255 mentioned in one of the threads, that experiences vary when using VGA.

In my experience, both panels (TX47 & LVM47) ended up with the red shift in the picture.

This leads me to believe that it is the signal output from my video card and needs some tweaking.

Thanks for the info, it is good to know and I do not want to mislead anyone.

~b3nz0n8

jbradg

05-30-07, 07:40 AM

flabioh

05-30-07, 08:55 AM

nibbs159

05-30-07, 09:10 AM

huggybear

05-30-07, 09:36 AM

I think it has something to do with the TV not recognizing the "Bitstream" mode so it passes it through. I still think my problems are more with the way HDMI works rather than a problem with the TV. I cannot get my Sony upconvert DVD player or my cable box to push DD5.1 to the TV via HDMI and out the SPDIF connector. My plan is to do separate audio to my receiver and maybe later find a good HDMI aware receiver that will do my A/V switching like I did when I was running all S-video. So much for my plan of using the TV as my A/V switcher.

I agree - there seems to be a problem with the TX automatically recognizing audio formats .... when I changed the PS3 to bitstream and the audio output to automatic, theoretically the TX should have recognized the DD 5.1 - but it didn't. I could only get it to work by manually specifying DD 5.1.

Not every device has this manual option (I take it your Sony DVD player falls into this category) and so you are stuck with 2 channel sound.

We can only hope that it is something they will address.

By chance, does the service menu from last year's models contain any audio settings or is it just for picture optimization?

bidzer

05-30-07, 09:59 AM

nibbs159

05-30-07, 10:20 AM

After reading everything in this thread, I still don't see any big difference in this vs. the LVM series. I'm a big xbox360 gamer and don't use many HDMI devices. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

The most notable differences are a TV Tuner (nice for free over the air HD) and 4 HDMI inputs instead of 1 HDMI and 2 DVI. My Playstation 3 had spakle issues with DVI #2 and HDMI on my old LVM-42w2. Anytime the PS3 changed resolution the screen would display garble until I switched to another input and then back on all three inputs. It seems like Westinghouse did a much better job with HDMI on the TX series.

Compared to a LVM-42w2 manufactured Feb 2006, I find the contrast to be much better on the TX. I think blacks look darker and whites are brighter. Saturation seemed set too high on the TX out of the box but after turning that down, things look nice. Color is still a little off but can be adjusted without going into the service menu.

If you're not planning on adding HDMI devices to your set and can still find an LVM, it's not at all a bad set. They're certainly cheaper than the TX right now. I'm liking the TX more due to its lack of banding, screen brightness and better HDMI handshaking. There are a lot of very happy LVM owners though. Good luck!

huggybear

05-30-07, 10:21 AM

After reading everything in this thread, I still don't see any big difference in this vs. the LVM series. I'm a big xbox360 gamer and don't use many HDMI devices. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Based on what I've read on the comparisons between the 2, the LVM seems to be a better choice if you plan on using the set primarily as a computer monitor (it has a DVI input while the TX does not). If you need a built-in tuner, the TX is the way to go.

In addition, another big plus for the TX is the fact that it has a USB port that can be used for firmware updates in the future... the USB port and the built-in tuner were the reasons why I waited for the TX.

DynStatic

05-30-07, 11:48 AM

aindik

05-30-07, 01:17 PM

I just got a SA 8300HD DVR STB and have it connected via HDMI to the TX. I can confirm that getting 5.1 via HDMI input and Optical output to a receiver is very dependent on your source hardware settings. I tried changing the settings on the STB under menu, menu > Audio: Digital. The only options are HDMI, Dolby Digital, and Other. The HDMI setting only passes Stereo. DD does not pass through the TV to the receiver by HDMI> optical, but does work by bypassing the TV on a coax output on the STB to coax input on my receiver. The "other" setting seems to do nothing.

First of all, you don't know whether the HDMI option "only passes stereo." It could be that it passes 5.1, and your TV only sends stereo to your receiver.

Second of all, of course sending the audio direct from the source to the receiver, bypassing the TV entirely, isn't going to have anything to do with the TV's settings.

I'm curious why people feel the need to send audio from a component through the TV on the way to the receiver. Is it simply to reduce the number of cables?

nibbs159

05-30-07, 01:31 PM

First of all, you don't know whether the HDMI option "only passes stereo." It could be that it passes 5.1, and your TV only sends stereo to your receiver.

Second of all, of course sending the audio direct from the source to the receiver, bypassing the TV entirely, isn't going to have anything to do with the TV's settings.

I'm curious why people feel the need to send audio from a component through the TV on the way to the receiver. Is it simply to reduce the number of cables?

I think what everyone is finding is that when HDMI auto negociates audio (such as a SA8300 HD cable box), the TV tells the source to send stereo, not 5.1. If the source has an override (manual setting, PS3, some DVD players, etc.), you can send Dolby Digital to the TV over HDMI but the TV won't play it (no Dolby Digital decoder) but it WILL pass it back out the SPDIF.

I would like to reduce cables and the number of inputs being used on my reciever. I am also interested in making things easier for everyone to use. It's more convenient for everything to be hooked up to the TV on HDMI, have the TV automatically select the active device, and leave the receiver on the same input. Less cables to buy, more expandibility on my receiver, easier for my family and friends to figure out.

jbradg

05-30-07, 02:10 PM

I think what everyone is finding is that when HDMI auto negociates audio (such as a SA8300 HD cable box), the TV tells the source to send stereo, not 5.1. If the source has an override (manual setting, PS3, some DVD players, etc.), you can send Dolby Digital to the TV over HDMI but the TV won't play it (no Dolby Digital decoder) but it WILL pass it back out the SPDIF.

I would like to reduce cables and the number of inputs being used on my reciever. I am also interested in making things easier for everyone to use. It's more convenient for everything to be hooked up to the TV on HDMI, have the TV automatically select the active device, and leave the receiver on the same input. Less cables to buy, more expandibility on my receiver, easier for my family and friends to figure out.

I agree with all that and that's my intent... to use the TV as my A/V switcher and leave my receiver on 1 input. One could argue just get a programmable remote, but those can get rather pricey.

flabioh

05-30-07, 03:01 PM

jbradg

05-30-07, 03:10 PM

ElectronicVision

05-30-07, 03:20 PM

flabioh

05-30-07, 03:52 PM

Ordered it from BB on Monday, last day of Memorial Day sale. The saleskid from the Magnolia section of BB said there was no 10% off LCD sale, but they took the 10-12% off coupon, so I got a pretty good price. Should I have been able to get both a sale price plus the coupon discount?

The TV should be here by the end of the week. What kind of connectors do I need to hook up a DirecTV HD-DVR receiver to the panel? I'd rather not pay for BB's triple-price wires. Does the panel come with any kind of connector just to get started, or should I order something from MonoPrice right now?

Lastly, and probably most importantly, the difference between the 2006 LVM and the new 2007 TX. Benzonate's excellent comparison work has me thinking I should order the LVM from BuyDig and cancel the BB order, saving $300. PQ and colors are pretty much paramount afaic, and his direct comparison has the LVM noticably ahead. The reason I went with the TX was because of the supposedly excellent SD scaling, which I figured would be the one thing which would override better colors and sharper panel, at least for a panel which will be used mostly for TV viewing, much if not most of which is still in SD even with an HD receiver. Benz repeatedly provided the disclaimer that his panel would be for HD content and games more than TV viewing, so taking that different useage into account I decided on TX for TV (being annoyed that a next-gen panel would have worse color and sharpness than the prev gen, just to get better scaling - a tradeoff that shouldn't have to be made - pfft).

But now I'm reading that the SD scaling on the TX is 10% chopped, so the TX's one advantage over the LVM seems quite compromised, if I'm understanding correctly. So the questions here are whether the TX scaling of SD-content really is compromised, and whether its SD scaling is really all that much better than the LVM's?

I'm thinking of ordering both and then checking for myself, but I'd rather not.

Welcome to the thread and to the forums. I'll try and answer your questions (without actually having the set myself, yet). The 10-12% coupon is based off the MSRP of the TV (or whatever BB normal price is) so it rang up correctly (it's in the fine print).

My understanding is that the TV does not come with any cables, so I'd recommend going to monoprice like you suggested. I don't know which interfaces are on the HD-DVR but HDMI or Component should be capable of 1080p on this TV. I would probably try and stay digital as much as possible, but that is just me.

As for the LVM <> TX debate... I foresee this being a debatable question for a very long time. If money is a major factor then I see the LVM as a better way to go. Since you're going to have the HD-DVR you aren't going to need the internal tuner of the TX. SD scaling shouldn't really be an issue in a few years, so if you are planning on keeping the TV for a long time I wouldn't make the purchase now for something that should technically be a moot point. The only advantage of the TX for you would be that it is a newer product with a USB firware upgradeable port, so any issues that you might be seeing users have now might all be resolved for them 6 months down the road (all without an exchange).

Based off the information in your post I'd say go with the LVM.

Xcalibur_255

05-30-07, 04:30 PM

Do all 4 of the HDMI inputs on the TX carry audio? For some reason I thought I read that only the first one did, but I could be wrong. If they don't carry audio it would beg the question why have HDMI inputs at all since they are just DVI inputs with an HDMI termination.
They all carry digital audio which is part of the purpose of HDMI. HDMI 1 is the only one that has redundant analog input, mostly for people who are converting from DVI sources.

ElectronicVision

05-30-07, 04:31 PM

ElectronicVision

05-30-07, 05:15 PM

The DirecTV DVR has a bunch of different outputs:

RCA-AV (2) (basic left-right-video for older TVs + VCRs)
S-Video
Component Video (RGB)
Optical (digital audio)
HDMI

also:
USB
Ethernet
Sata

HD appears to be output from the sat-receiver on both HDMI and Component Video. I'm assuminging that Component Video inputs on both the LVM and TX support HD, so you can use a triple-RCA cable for HD at least get started.

After that it would be HDMI >> HDMI for the sat-receiver and DVI >> HDMI#2 for the computer, with the LVM also providing a DVI computer input, yes?

nibbs159

05-30-07, 05:19 PM

Lastly, and probably most importantly, the difference between the 2006 LVM and the new 2007 TX. Benzonate's excellent comparison work has me thinking I should order the LVM from BuyDig and cancel the BB order, saving $300. PQ and colors are pretty much paramount afaic, and his direct comparison has the LVM noticably ahead. The reason I went with the TX was because of the supposedly excellent SD scaling, which I figured would be the one thing which would override better colors and sharper panel, at least for a panel which will be used mostly for TV viewing, much if not most of which is still in SD even with an HD receiver. Benz repeatedly provided the disclaimer that his panel would be for HD content and games more than TV viewing, so taking that different useage into account I decided on TX for TV (being annoyed that a next-gen panel would have worse color and sharpness than the prev gen, just to get better scaling - a tradeoff that shouldn't have to be made - pfft).

But now I'm reading that the SD scaling on the TX is 10% chopped, so the TX's one advantage over the LVM seems quite compromised, if I'm understanding correctly. So the questions here are whether the TX scaling of SD-content really is compromised, and whether its SD scaling is really all that much better than the LVM's?

I'm thinking of ordering both and then checking for myself, but I'd rather not.

The 10% overscan is only happening when people engage "fill" mode. I've only had to use this mode for 480p content set for a 16x9 TV. For example, the original xbox has some widescreen games and most Wii games are widescreen. For SD TV viewing you will not need fill mode.

As far as internal scalers, I've been letting my cable box scale SD content to 1080i. When I had an LVM-42w2 I tried letting the TV scale the content but preferred the cable box. Changing channels was more responsive since the TV was always in 1080i or 720p and I think the cable box actually did a better job scaling than the LVM-42w2. I'm still letting the cable box do the scaling and I can't say I'm used to the TX enough to switch back and forth and see which looks better. I can say that I prefer SD content on the TX over the LVM-42w2. I think picture quality is pretty close but I think the TX has much better contrast. SD does not look great on either set and I wouldn't say either set has much of an upper hand in that area. I'll see if I can get some photos of cable box VS TX scaling later this evening.

Mikeoz

05-30-07, 06:04 PM

nibbs,

How does the 10% stretching look w/ your Wii? I will be getting my tx47 tomorrow, but am a little worried now about this problem. Like I mentioned, I still use a bunch of 480p sources and I'm concerned w/ how it looks. If the tx47 looks bad w/ 16:9 SD then I'll have to bring it back, which is a big disappointment imo. Although yes I do watch largely HD content and will be getting a ps3, this is a pretty big flaw if it's very noticeable. Scaling a widescreen SD image correctly should be a given not a feature.

If you could provide any screenshots it would be really appreciated. Unfortunately I just remembered that the gf has my digicam so I won't be able to snap any shots of the tx47 till the weekend.

If the lvm47 didn't have the sparkle issues I wouldn't bother w/ the tx47 and just get the lvm.. but, seeing as how HDMI will be the connection of choice for a while, I wouldn't "gamble" on getting the lvm. People mention the tx47 has a usb connection for firmware updates, and I agree that's good, but I really hope westinghouse actually makes use of it.. I'm a little concerned that it may go largely unused..

ElectronicVision

05-30-07, 06:19 PM

I agree Mike, SD scaling should be a given, not a feature. USB firmware updates is a feature.

ElectronicVision

05-30-07, 07:11 PM

nibbs159 >> For SD TV viewing you will not need fill mode.

But that's with a black border around the picture, right?
I believe that's what Benzonate's pictures showed.

nibbs159

05-30-07, 07:45 PM

nibbs,

How does the 10% stretching look w/ your Wii? I will be getting my tx47 tomorrow, but am a little worried now about this problem. Like I mentioned, I still use a bunch of 480p sources and I'm concerned w/ how it looks. If the tx47 looks bad w/ 16:9 SD then I'll have to bring it back, which is a big disappointment imo. Although yes I do watch largely HD content and will be getting a ps3, this is a pretty big flaw if it's very noticeable. Scaling a widescreen SD image correctly should be a given not a feature.

The 10% stretching was barely noticable on the Wii. It annoys me that it's happening but, if you don't know, it's not even noticable. I'll try to get some pictures in a bit. It's getting dark now so I'm holding off until there is a constant light level for all the photos.

nibbs159

05-30-07, 07:48 PM

nibbs159 >> For SD TV viewing you will not need fill mode.

But that's with a black border around the picture, right?
I believe that's what Benzonate's pictures showed.

Without fill mode, 4:3 SD will still touch the top and bottom of the screen. It will be pillarboxed.

Fill mode will have less pillarboxing but crop a bit of the top and bottom.

Overscan has no pillarboxing and crops more of the top and bottom.

Xcalibur_255

05-30-07, 08:04 PM

Scaling of SD content is I feel a fairly major issue right now and for the next couple of years. A few years from now it won't be - by then there will be very little need for SD content scaling as it will most likely all be HD or HD-converted at the source. And by then we'll probably all have 50-60" LED-backlit screens that will be even cheaper than these are now. At the rate the LCD market is changing and the content providers are transitioning, I'm not buying this set for two or three years from now.

Between now and then, any panel bought primarily for TV viewing is a transition panel which will have to handle both SD and HD content, in addition to the always-factors of price and picture quality.

Benzonate's primary analysis is HD picture quality. I'm looking for LVM/TX comparison info from a mixed SD/HD TV viewing perspective. I know it's early with most only having had their TX sets for a week or two, and few probably having had both sets for TV viewing, but that's what I'm looking for now, especially considering that the LVMs are being phased out so quickly.
Well the thing is Westinghouse has these tvs positioned as future ready models and is emphasizing HD performance. I don't think they really care about SD quality, nor should they. It is an old low resolution format that is going away in short order. I have to wonder why people continue to put such importance on SD performance. Pursuing a high resolution 1080p HD television and demanding that SD content be displayed well are completely contradictory goals to put it bluntly. SD looks great on the SDTVs it is meant to be displayed on. If an HDTV displays HD content well then it has done it's job. Better to put the engineering dollars towards that goal and have a set which produces great HD viewing and crappy SD viewing rather than one that produces mediocre performance in both.