I've been working on this for the past day, solid...I'm only running one LUG at the moment as I haven't modded the other two neckboards, and I just can't get it to focus like it should. The other two tubes (180DMB's) focus fine. If I adjust flare and stig correctly, I can barely get scan lines at 480p. Here's a quick breakdown of what I've tried:

-Tied Grid 3 (KH) to either 1M, 1/2W resistor to Ground, or directly to Grid 1. I noticed no difference between the two.
-Tried the stock (8") Thompson focus yoke, at different positions all up and down the tube (I have only tested stock orientation)
-Tried a 1292 yoke (frankenyoke) in both orientations, at different positions all up and down the tube
-With both focus yokes I even removed the convergence yoke to see if moving it up farther would help - it doesn't.

At this point I'm running out of ideas - this tube is basically new, the bell is very silver-white. It should focus just fine. Help!! :(

Thanks,
Ben

Ben,

Forget scanlines for a moment.
What are your test patterns (crosshatch or dot's) looking like?
If moving your focus coils up and down the neck are not effecting the focus (I believe they should) I would wonder about the focus board or focus coils and their operation. Are you sure you are plugged into the correct socket on the focus board?? Are you getting focus in and out when you go to pic 4? how about electronic focus?

Terry

Hi Terry,

If I adjust flare, stig and EM focus as good as I know how the internal test patterns look just "ok". Most of the time it looks like there is a slight "halo" around things - like a vertical lines appear as a bright line in a flare, and dots appear as a bright spot in the middle of a flare, as if underfocused.

Then I switch to one of the 8" tubes and it's like I put my glasses on, there is a huge difference. I only mentioned scanlines because at 480P the scanlines on the 8" tube are almost as big as the lines drawn - but on the LUG the scanlines are tiny gaps and the lines drawn are much thicker.

I should have been clearer about the location of the focus coils - it does affect focusing, greatly so. It seems to affect how much I can under- and over-focus. But even if I put it roughly in the middle so that best focus is around 50, it is still not sharp. I have double checked the connectors to the focus board and they are on correctly. Both Pic->4 and RGB focus work as they should (though the LUG doesn't seem to respond quite the same way as the 180DMB's, but I expected that) - but when the focus coil is positioned correctly, I can over/underfocus. I just can't focus! ;)

Thanks for your help,
Ben

Lets look at the obvious first.
* bad glycol?
* CElement problem?

When you mounted the tubes in the housings how did you do it?
I'm not familiar from a P/N point of view, but it sound like you are converting an 8XXX series to a 9500? Is it possible that the magnetics on the 8XXX you are building from are causing an issue?
If you disconnect the focus coil, what happens to the dot or line?

Is it possible that these tubes were "rejects" and that is why they won't focus?

Terry

Lets look at the obvious first.
* bad glycol?
* CElement problem?


Glycol - I filled the housings with new glycol bought from MCM, the TechSpray brand as the RCA is backordered. The stuff looked pretty clear.

CElement - I pretty carefully inspected and cleaned the C-elements before potting the tubes in, so I don't think that's it.

When you mounted the tubes in the housings how did you do it?

I used GE Silicone II, the Gray kind for Aluminum. I put a thin coating on the housing plate that faces the tube, and filled it around the sides.


I'm not familiar from a P/N point of view, but it sound like you are converting an 8XXX series to a 9500? Is it possible that the magnetics on the 8XXX you are building from are causing an issue?


It's certainly possible. I believe that tse had said that the focus coil differed between the 8" and 9" versions, but what puzzles me is that the 1292 yoke has almost identical behavior as the 8" stock yoke. I believe that everything else - CPC magnet pack, convergence coil, and DY are essentially the same.


If you disconnect the focus coil, what happens to the dot or line?


Good question. I have to run out, now, but I'll try that tomorrow morning. What should happen?


Is it possible that these tubes were "rejects" and that is why they won't focus?

Terry


While I'd rather not think about this, it's crossed my mind :p

I tried the Red LUG in place of the Green one I was running last night, and it seems to focus better. However I did find a new way to set the flare that seems to work better as well, so I'll have to try that on the green. The red is about 90% as sharp as the AC tube in the corners, showing defined scan lines at 480p but probably 65-75% in the center, with scan lines barely visible.

Thanks,
Ben

Are your G2 and drive settings set correctly for the tube?

Are your G2 and drive settings set correctly for the tube?

Hi Gino,

As expected I had to lower G2 and Drive significantly, I'm currently running G2 at 50 (set off the grayscale ramp) and Drive around 25-30.

Thanks,
Ben

Are you still not able to focus with G2 and drive lowered?

Terry

Hi Gino,

As expected I had to lower G2 and Drive significantly, I'm currently running G2 at 50 (set off the grayscale ramp) and Drive around 25-30.

Thanks,
Ben


the G2 settings are much lower than on P19LCP's

I just converted to LUG's on my Ultra last week.

brand new tubes (thanks Terry & Greg E.)

here are my G2 and drive settings:

Red G2 44
Green G2 40
Blue G2 37


Red Drive 33
Red sub brite 20

Green drive 90

blue drive 23
Blue sub brite 75



Michael

Are you still not able to focus with G2 and drive lowered?

Terry

Hi Terry,

I lowered G2 and drive first thing after I started it up because the raster was shining like the sun :D

the G2 settings are much lower than on P19LCP's

I just converted to LUG's on my Ultra last week.

brand new tubes (thanks Terry & Greg E.)

here are my G2 and drive settings:

Red G2 44
Green G2 40
Blue G2 37


Red Drive 33
Red sub brite 20

Green drive 90

blue drive 23
Blue sub brite 75



Michael

Hi Michael,

Thanks for giving me your numbers! Now I have a set to compare against to see if mine are reasonable.

One question - How do you set sub brite on the Marquee? I've never found it.

Thanks!
Ben

Hi Michael,

Thanks for giving me your numbers! Now I have a set to compare against to see if mine are reasonable.

One question - How do you set sub brite on the Marquee? I've never found it.

Thanks!
Ben


I have a 6.0.1 software running on my marquee ultra.

older software didn't have the sub brite settngs , maybe yours is older than 5.0 ?


Michael

So is the switch from LCP to LUG worth it? Care to give your impressions, advantages/disadvantages??

So is the switch from LCP to LUG worth it? Care to give your impressions, advantages/disadvantages??

Hi Gino,

I'm actually converting from 8500 AC to 9500LC, so I don't have any experience with the LCP's.

Michael, I believe my software is 4.something, but I'll check and report back.

I had a bit of a panic attack today, because my red tube leaked a bit of glycol overnight (upon draining and dis-assembly I found I had sealed the C-element incorrectly by overtightening the ring that holds it) and seemingly as a result I was getting a LVPS error when trying to power the set up. I opened up the LVPS and checked fuses, reseated connectors and now it's fine....whew :o I don't know what happened, but glad it's working again.

So, I'm just getting around to doing more testing on focusing, etc. Terry, I'll try leaving the focus coil unplugged and see what happens.

Thanks,
Ben

So is the switch from LCP to LUG worth it? Care to give your impressions, advantages/disadvantages??



i can't comment on brightness, I had a P43 green which was very dim

but was told that the LUG's a re slightly dimmer than P22 LCP's

maybe 10-20%.

my P43 green only had around 7 ftL , with the P22 LUG green I get 14.5 ftL.

on my 96" 4:3 Stewart Studiotek 130

picture is sharper, much sharper than with LCP's and I don't need to defocus blue

for color temperature and gamma


Michael



Thanks again to Terry and Greg E. for the tubes

Ok, so maybe not all is well with the PJ...it started up and ran once after I installed the LVPS, but the second time it wouldn't start up. Here's what it's doing:

Press power on the remote, and the set starts up just as normal until it gets to the very end of the "HV Crackle" (but no erroneous sparks are heard or seen) then the set shuts down, briefly lighting the LVPS error code on the back. The LVPS then has the -15V error LED lit. I'm going to start taking things apart so I can see if I missed any of the glycol (it didn't lose much, but that must be my problem). Is there anything in specific I should look for? I think I recall that at least the Vert. Deflection board uses -15V?

Thanks,
Ben

Ok - this is kind of weird, at least to me.

Three times in a row, now, I'll reseat the LVPS and the set will power up and operate just fine, for as long as I want. Then I shut it down, and it won't start back up again until I reseat the LVPS. However the -15V error LED is not lighting anymore. Why, if everything is apparently functioning well enough to run the set normally, won't it start up??

Also I investigated further and it doesn't seem like the gylcol got anywhere. I see no trace of it in the power supply or on the mobo.

Thanks,
Ben

Check to see if glycol dripped down the backplane... not the motherboard under the tubes, but the one that sits vertically that the motherboard under the tubes plugs into. That could be causing what you're seeing. There's an 8 pin system control chip on that backplane, and if glycol got under the chip or the 64 pin connectors, you could be screwed. It's about a 3 hour job to pull that board outta there, clean it, and reassemble it. I've got spare backplanes here if you need one.

Thanks for the advice, Curt. I thought that the mobo under the tubes was it, I didn't know that there was something else there (the backplane). So if I'm understanding you correctly, the backplane is kind of parallel to the back face of LVPS, but on the other side of the metal box that holds the power supplies?

I have to go out for a few hours but I'll look into this tonight and see if I have the time to take it all apart. If nothing else, it'll be a good learning experience!

One question - I know that gylcol doesn't evaporate, so if it's damaged something on the backplane, I should be able to see traces of it, yes? Does it discolor anything, or other telltale signs that I should look for besides the liquid itself?

Thanks,
Ben

Ben,
Glycol as you said doesn't evaporate and when you try and wire it up, it smears rathr than absorbing in the paper towel.
It cleans up nicely with water or alcohol.

Terry

OK- finally got the time to take apart the PJ.

I'd love to say I found a smoking gun - but the ONLY glycol I saw was a bit of residue under the lower tube mounting plate, which is consistent with how much the tube leaked (very little). Currently I have the Mobo off, but I haven't taken out the backplane because I don't want to if I don't have to, and it doesn't seem to be the problem. It's entirely possible that the LVPS croaked because I was cycling the set a lot, trying to figure out my focus problem.

The trick of reseating the LVPS to get the PJ to start up no longer works. Any ideas? Does this point to the LVPS?

Thanks,
Ben

Ben,
Is there anyone near you with a Quee where you could take your LVPS and pop into their machine to see if it is OK?


It really sounds to me like you wither have a bad connection or a faulty plug. The fact that you were able to reseat and make it work leads me to believe the problem is the connection and it just gave up. Have tried cleaning the contacts on the LVPS and the plug?

Hi Erik,

I live in Fairfax, VA, so Mike Parker is fairly close to me I suppose. I'm not aware of anyone else around here with a Marquee.

I took apart the LVPS completely and cleaned the boards and the male connector. I haven't cleaned the female plug, is there a good way to get it out? If not I suppose I can rig something up to try to get it clean(er).

The behavior of the error lights has changed a bit: the PJ briefly lights the LVPS error LED on shutdown (this is the same) but now the LVPS only briefly lights the -15V error LED on shutdown (it used to light it solid). Don't know if that means anything, though.

Thanks,
Ben

Hi,

When installing the LUG the best procedure is to tie the grids tougher.

The resistor I find adds noise and does not work as well.

As for the focus a new tube needs typically a good burn in time, more on rebuilds.

You will find new tubes even barco original that are out of focus. You need to use them for a good 50 hours or so before you get good focus.

LUG tubes should be the same brightness if you set the G2 correctly. The spot size is finer so at low rez you will lose some brightness because of less Bloom between the scan lines. AT 1080p difference should be nothing.


Thats why barco typically put 200-300 hours on a chassis before they ship.

Greg

Thanks for the information, Greg. I finished my last neck card yesterday and I did them all tying G3 to G1. With the first neck card I tried G3->resistor->GND but I redid it to go G3-G1.

As for burn in - I was unaware that burn-in affected focus, but I suppose that makes sense. What would you suggest for burn-in material, just moving video? Running cable TV would probably be the easiest thing for me to do.

Thanks,
Ben

Yes, burn in will slightly affect focus, but if the tube(s) are noticeably defocused when you put them in, there's something wrong somewhere...

I agree with Curt. VDC turns on new Marquees and immediately sets them up. The focus is razor sharp with brand new tubes unless something is wrong.

Scott

OK - well I think we can rule out the LVPS as a cause of poor focusing, because my other tubes were focusing just fine.

So a few possibilities for the poor focus remain in my mind:

1. Stock 8" yoke not sufficient to focus a 9" tube.
2. 1292 "Frankenyoke" not working correctly in conjunction with 2 stock 8" Thompson yokes. (But may work better with all 3 1292 yokes running)
3. Running one 9" with two 8" tubes causes other issues that may affect focus.

Is number 2 feasible? I've heard the focus board described as a "resonant" circuit, in the sense that the yokes are very much part of the circuit and affect the operation of the board. I do know that when I run the one 1292 yoke, the focus values for the other two tubes are no longer correct and must be changed for sharp focus. So, I'm thinking that the focus circuit would work better with all of the 1292 yokes installed.

As for the LVPS - anyone have any ideas? I had my brother (an EE) inspect the boards that I had pulled and those still in the PJ. He saw nothing to suspect any component failure. I thought for sure you'll be offering to sell me an LVPS Curt ;)

Thanks,
Ben

I don't think it's the LVPS. They either work or they don't, they usually don't go intermittent.

Not to pick on you, but this is why I don't get into mods. You now have a one of a kind set that only Chris has played with, and I can only offer to tell you to put the set back to stock condition and see if you still have an issue. I haven't tried the mod, so there's no point in troubleshooting, as you could have created this problem with the Frankenyokes.. or not.

I don't think it's the LVPS. They either work or they don't, they usually don't go intermittent.

Not to pick on you, but this is why I don't get into mods. You now have a one of a kind set that only Chris has played with, and I can only offer to tell you to put the set back to stock condition and see if you still have an issue. I haven't tried the mod, so there's no point in troubleshooting, as you could have created this problem with the Frankenyokes.. or not.

No offense taken. As for the LVPS, we inspected both boards very carefully top and bottom and there wasn't anything suspicious. Of course an IC could fail or cap could leak without indication, but there wasn't anything externally obvious.

As for the modded state of the projector, I should have mentioned that I put the one 8" tube I had out back in the PJ. So, as far as tubes, focus coils, everything basically, the PJ is in stock condition. The PJ reacts exactly the same with one modded neckboard+9" tube vs. all stock tubes.

Thanks,
Ben

OK - well I think we can rule out the LVPS as a cause of poor focusing, because my other tubes were focusing just fine.

So a few possibilities for the poor focus remain in my mind:

1. Stock 8" yoke not sufficient to focus a 9" tube.

There is only a very slight difference in magnetic strength (gauss) between 8" and 9" magnets. They will interchange but the wrong type will focus near the end of the static focus range.

2. 1292 "Frankenyoke" not working correctly in conjunction with 2 stock 8" Thompson yokes. (But may work better with all 3 1292 yokes running)

Focus magnets are tricky. They have to be just right or won't work right. For example, the Thomson magnets for Marquee are about 296 Gauss. The static focus circuit only changes that from about 293 to 299 from min to max. That small change makes a dramatic difference.

3. Running one 9" with two 8" tubes causes other issues that may affect focus.

Shouldn't make a difference.

Is number 2 feasible? I've heard the focus board described as a "resonant" circuit, in the sense that the yokes are very much part of the circuit and affect the operation of the board.

The resonant part of the circuit does the left and right side focus. Everything else is done with linear amps.

I do know that when I run the one 1292 yoke, the focus values for the other two tubes are no longer correct and must be changed for sharp focus. So, I'm thinking that the focus circuit would work better with all of the 1292 yokes installed.

That's odd. The three colors have individual circuits for focus. There shouldn't be any interaction.

As for the LVPS - anyone have any ideas? I had my brother (an EE) inspect the boards that I had pulled and those still in the PJ. He saw nothing to suspect any component failure. I thought for sure you'll be offering to sell me an LVPS Curt ;)

Thanks,
Ben

Have you tried the original Thomson focus mag on the 9" tube?

Scott

Hi Scott,

I have tried the Thompson mag on the 9" tube, in the stock orientation. I have not tried it flipped 180deg, which might make a difference, favorable or not.

EDIT: I'm not positive anymore about my statement of having to change focus values for the other two tubes. I'd like to double check this when I get it back up and running...

When I put my 8" blue back in, it focused up just fine with the Thompson mag (while the PJ was working). So here's a question - other than excessive age (ruled out because these are pretty new, if not new), are you aware of any factors that can prevent EM tubes from focusing correctly (assuming they have a suitable focus mag)?

Curt - since the set was operating intermittently, then, let's rule out the LVPS for now. I'll take out the backplane and all of the rest of the boards that plug into it (controller, VIM, CC, etc). Assuming I don't see anything obvious, is there a specific board that might be a likely culprit? Since the -15V was lit on the LVPS, I can try to track it to boards that use -15V, but other than that, I wouldn't know where to start if everything appears in good shape.

Thanks,
Ben

Progress!

My brother and I looked at the backplane after I took out all the cards, and he felt like he didn't need to see the back of the board (usually better to spot component failure) because the backplane doesn't really have any components...just traces and plugs. Again there was no trace of gylcol anywhere, so I don't think that was the start of my problem, just a conveniently timed headache.

I had cleaned all boards/etc while taking it apart, and I reseated all of the connectors on the backplane. So I reassembled the machine, very carefully, with all of the 8" tubes. I left out the Sub-standard decoder board and the CC board, just to try and take a few variables out.

So far, the PJ started up three times in a row, and works great...knock on wood! Today I'll try to get back to my 9" tubes, and the focusing issue.

Thanks,
Ben