I looked at the INHD HD-DVD test patterns on my Xbox to reply to a thread about the porches and realized something that I had kind of noticed in the past but never really paid much attention to. Now that I've seen and recognized it, I cant just ignore it (I'm sure one or two other forum members might be able to relate).

When I setup the registration and convergence the test pattern I get is of a different size and proportion than it is when I display an input image. If I cycle through the patterns when adjusting anything to get it to show me the actual input and the adjustment grid its obvious that the area I have adjustment control over is much smaller than the overall image being displayed.

Hopefully what I'm seeing is a side effect of my bumbling way of setting stuff up and other Sony or G90 owners see something altogether different and can help me straighten mine out.

So if I have a 1080p signal coming from my Xbox to my moome input card, here is the grid I get when I set the size/center/whatever (when it just displays the grid and not the input image). I set it so that it completely fills my screen.
http://www.vidya.com/G90/Raster_vs_Image/Raster_1080p.jpg

If I switch the pattern to show me the grid for the center adjustment along with the image, this is what I get. Notice how the image is the same size as the grid was, but the grid I get when they are both displayed is much smaller. There is a lot of image area outside the grid that I have no convergence adjustment control over.
http://www.vidya.com/G90/Raster_vs_Image/Xbox_HDMI_Raster.jpg

Here's a Blu-ray test pattern from the PS3. Its pretty much the same as the Xbox when both of them are on HDMI into the moome card:
http://www.vidya.com/G90/Raster_vs_Image/PS3_Raster.jpg

I dont think its a moome issue, since I see pretty much the same proportions when I run the Xbox into the JohnHWman DVI card:
http://www.vidya.com/G90/Raster_vs_Image/Xbox_DVI_Raster.jpg

And its also consistent with what I see on the Xbox via RGB:
http://www.vidya.com/G90/Raster_vs_Image/Xbox_RGB_Raster.jpg

With my PC input via RGB, the grid goas all the way across horizontally but still has a lot of vertical area off the grid:
http://www.vidya.com/G90/Raster_vs_Image/PC_RGB_Raster.jpg

So why is this a problem? - When I check the corner convergence on the internal test pattern that takes up the entire screen, its dead on. The corners are very well converged and all is well. When I switch back to the input and put up a test pattern, its clear that the corner and top convergence are good, but not perfect. And there's nothing I can do about it. If I adjust the convergence with a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray test pattern the adjustments only give me direct control over the area covered by the grid.

The scanning frequencies of the PS3, Xbox360, and PC at 1080p are all pretty close. Xbox360 HDMI is 67.58kHz, 60.07Hz. Xbox360 DVI is 67.55kHz, 60.04Hz. Xbox360 RGB is 66.63kHz, 59.97Hz. PC is 66.81kHz, 59.75Hz.
Xbox HDMI Info (http://www.vidya.com/G90/Raster_vs_Image/Xbox_HDMI_Info.jpg)
Xbox DVI Info (http://www.vidya.com/G90/Raster_vs_Image/Xbox_DVI_Info.jpg)
Xbox RGB Info (http://www.vidya.com/G90/Raster_vs_Image/Xbox_RGB_Info.jpg)
PC RGB Info (http://www.vidya.com/G90/Raster_vs_Image/PC_RGB_Info.jpg)

To get the image to sync with the digital cards, my settings are:
Clamp : H/C
V Shift : Wide
Sync Sel : HV
Sync Route : Auto
Video Lock : Normal
Xbox HDMI Settings (http://www.vidya.com/G90/Raster_vs_Image/Xbox_HDMI_Settings.jpg)

Why is the grid so small compared to the image?

Kris,

Technically I think that you are supposed to do a full set up the G90 initially on the internal P2 pattern and then feed your signals into the projector for setup. I don't know if this has anything to do with the issue your having, but just so you know, my stack is the same way if I'm not mistaken. :)

But at the same time, I didn't set it up on internal P2 mode first so maybe that's why both of us are experiencing the same thing. Just a guess?

That BD test pattern looks kick ass BTW.

Cliff

Yeah I've gone through the process of dumping the whole memory (I actually got one of the chips from glassact and formatted/initialized it from scratch) and did the setup with no input on the P5 internal test pattern (which is 1080p). And the last time I went through it I touched it up with the PS3 on going into the moome card and did all the positional EM focus adjustments in that memory block. Looking at the full screen grid its dead on. Focus is tight across the entire screen and the convergence is great.

But when it pops back to the input image the top edge and corners go out of convergence slightly. It kind of looks like the blue and green bow a little at the top but the red stays rectangular. Its not much and I never even noticed it until I was looking at the test pattern. In practice most movies are not full screen anyway and the area below the top 5% or so is still spot on.

If your stack does look the same, I would expect it to be a bigger problem for you trying to keep both machines converged identically. So I guess consistency is sad if yours does the same thing. Maybe some other G90 folk could check theirs too...

And that Blu-ray test pattern is on all the disks. From the main menu, enter 7669 and it will go throug a series: color, focus, greyscale, convergence.

Yeah I've gone through the process of dumping the whole memory (I actually got one of the chips from glassact and formatted/initialized it from scratch) and did the setup with no input on the P5 internal test pattern (which is 1080p). And the last time I went through it I touched it up with the PS3 on going into the moome card and did all the positional EM focus adjustments in that memory block. Looking at the full screen grid its dead on. Focus is tight across the entire screen and the convergence is great.

But when it pops back to the input image the top edge and corners go out of convergence slightly. It kind of looks like the blue and green bow a little at the top but the red stays rectangular. Its not much and I never even noticed it until I was looking at the test pattern. In practice most movies are not full screen anyway and the area below the top 5% or so is still spot on.

If your stack does look the same, I would expect it to be a bigger problem for you trying to keep both machines converged identically. So I guess consistency is sad if yours does the same thing. Maybe some other G90 folk could check theirs too...

And that Blu-ray test pattern is on all the disks. From the main menu, enter 7669 and it will go throug a series: color, focus, greyscale, convergence.

Thanks for the tip! I knew about the test patterns, but forgot the code. :)

I know this is a stupid question, but I always use external patterns (from the source) to do convergence. Are you doing the same or using internal patterns??

Cliffy

Yeah I've gone through the process of dumping the whole memory (I actually got one of the chips from glassact and formatted/initialized it from scratch) and did the setup with no input on the P5 internal test pattern (which is 1080p). And the last time I went through it I touched it up with the PS3 on going into the moome card and did all the positional EM focus adjustments in that memory block. Looking at the full screen grid its dead on. Focus is tight across the entire screen and the convergence is great.

But when it pops back to the input image the top edge and corners go out of convergence slightly. It kind of looks like the blue and green bow a little at the top but the red stays rectangular. Its not much and I never even noticed it until I was looking at the test pattern. In practice most movies are not full screen anyway and the area below the top 5% or so is still spot on.

If your stack does look the same, I would expect it to be a bigger problem for you trying to keep both machines converged identically. So I guess consistency is sad if yours does the same thing. Maybe some other G90 folk could check theirs too...

And that Blu-ray test pattern is on all the disks. From the main menu, enter 7669 and it will go throug a series: color, focus, greyscale, convergence.

Kris,

I have confirmed that at 1080P60hz timings output from my VP50, I cannot take the zone convergence to the extreme corners.

On 1080P60hz output from my HTPC, it's no problem. Kinda weird.

Cliff

Kris, if what you are saying is that when you go into the internal test patterns, the grid is not stretched out to all of the corners, then I had the same issue as well.

What I did to solve this was to go into the service menu by pressing enter twice followed by the up arrow and down arrow and then enter again. Select Service mode and enter. On the bottom left side of the remote control you will see a size control. Press this button and then your grid should come up. On the next row of keys up you will see under ADJ the G button. Press this so that you now see RGB Sizing. Write down these numbers just in case this does not work for you so you can go back exactly where you were. Once you have written down these numbers expand both the horiz and vetical axis' using the arrow keys. This should bring out the overlay to the extreme corners and then you can proceed to dialing in your adjustments.

Hope this helps!!

Kris, if what you are saying is that when you go into the internal test patterns, the grid is not stretched out to all of the corners, then I had the same issue as well.

What I did to solve this was to go into the service menu by pressing enter twice followed by the up arrow and down arrow and then enter again. Select Service mode and enter. On the bottom left side of the remote control you will see a size control. Press this button and then your grid should come up. On the next row of keys up you will see under ADJ the G button. Press this so that you now see RGB Sizing. Write down these numbers just in case this does not work for you so you can go back exactly where you were. Once you have written down these numbers expand both the horiz and vetical axis' using the arrow keys. This should bring out the overlay to the extreme corners and then you can proceed to dialing in your adjustments.

Hope this helps!!

Damn,

I feel stupid Brian. Great advice!!!!!!!!

When I get the new moome external and switch from the nec iss to my new extron distribution switcher, I'm going to redial in my settings.

Thanks!

Cliff

Hope it works for you!! Just remember to write down your previous settings just in case....

Be very careful with this on a G90.

The reason you set up the G90 with f5 to start is because the internal white field that is displayed for 20 minutes during warm-up is based on the f5 frequency set-up. If you use a different frequency during the initial set-up, when you start the projector the white field may go off the tubes... and you don't want that (tube implosion is bad).

What I do during G90 calibrations is to reset to factory and then set everything up with f5. After that you can fine tune any scan rate you want to use and save it to an individual memory.

Usually if you properly center the raster with the "CENT" key during initial set-up with f5, the raster will be well positioned for ANY input scan rate there after. With f5 and no input signal the raster and internal test patterns overlap identically (it's also 4x3 so take that into consideration).

You generally shouldn't use the "CENT" function on anything other than f5 because "CENT" moves the raster. Generally speaking, the "SHIFT" functions should be used when tweaking input scan rates because they only move the image inside the raster (not the entire raster). If you set up f5 well initially, then you probably won't need to tweak the raster position any further so only use "SHIFT" (though if you want to be sneaky you might... like getting rid of raster ringing on 1080p).

craigr