Due to the efforts of a faithful and enterprising few, we now have multiple options for running HDMI/HDCP into our CRT PJ's. My heartfelt thanks.

I just bought a Toshiba HD-D2 at Costco for 250 clams, so I'm in the hunt for the best HDCP compliant way to get digital video into my PJ.

I have a Sony G70 and would like to understand the pro's, con's, and timing of the following options:

HD-Fury
Moome's latest
JohnHWMan's latest

My only interest is viewing HD-DVD's and Blu-Ray DVD's on my current setup. Compatibility and ease of use are paramount - the family has to be able to run the theater with a simplified remote, as they do now.

So, ladies and gentlemen, weigh in please.

Regards,

Tom

Clarence would be the man to speak to in this regard, as far as I'm aware he's got just about every available product out there for this purpose.

I've had the first gen Moome, and currently have the HDMI Moome and JohnHW cards. They all work as advertised in my setup (G70).

I dont have experience with the HD-Fury, but I own both the moome and JohnHWman ifb input cards.

If you want to run the Toshiba directly into the projector, the moome has a gamma correction option that many people like (I like it). I think his next version (1.33?) allows for adjustment of the gamma which is something some people have seen as a shortcoming in the non-adjustable ones.

John's card also works fine with my HDMI devices, but I had to get a better quality cable to run the 25 feet from my equipment room to the projector. So if you need a long cable run, I'd recommend getting your cable from bluejeanscable to minimize the chance of disappointment with pixel noise.

From the hip, I'd say go with the moome since it offers hdmi, component and the gamma. It would do what you want now, have the component input if you wanted to add another device easily down the line.

I don't think anyone has the Fury yet.

D
My only interest is viewing HD-DVD's and Blu-Ray DVD's on my current setup.

If that is the only criteria, you can run component. If you want a better component transcoder than what is in your PJ, get Kim's.

Dave

If that is the only criteria, you can run component. If you want a better component transcoder than what is in your PJ, get Kim's.

Dave

BR players can output HD component? I know at least some HD DVD players can, though I thought that wasn't the case with BR players.

HD-Fury
Moome's latest
JohnHWMan's latest


Just for your info, John Wyman designed the HD-Fury also.

Kim's RTC-2200 transcoder is known to be the best one out there. It's an excellent product (been using it for a few months now).

If it's gamma you want/need then:

One thing that some have mentioned (Dave included) is that adding HDfury ($150 USD shipped) to Kim's RTC-2200 transcoder ($200 USD shipped) works out to slightly cheaper ($350 total) than Moome's Sony card with gamma ($385 USD shipped). You plug the HDfury directly into the RTC-2200's VGA passthrough to add some gamma boost, and have a component input as well to boot (which also gets a gamma boost).

Price difference is really pretty negligable so it really all depends on your needs and cabling. Some will choose the HDfury+RTC-2200 as they don't have to replace the cabling to their PJ, while others will want other features of the Moome product. (He's got a more expensive one with IR switching too).

I like the HDfury+RTC2200 option (for me) as I don't have to pull new cabling and already have the RTC2200. So to add DVI/HDMI (HDCP) only costs me $150. (Well, it doesn't cost me anything, but that's another story). :)

I think it's somewhat of a wash and comes down to what someone's needs are ...

Kal

We have a custom internal card that is HDCP ready

Has DVI and HDMI

Our card is internal for Barco only however. Its internal because we upgrade the BW of Port 3 and the switcher card.

We highly recommend to use internal cards because of the BW limitations of external devices. Don't trust me about this, I can send you a demo card and you will see the difference.

The port 3 card on the 909 and 1209s model are the same card designed back in 1991 for the Barco 800. No changes have been made and this card has serious bottle necks to your BW of your unit. They have made a few minor changes to some resistors but the same semiconductors are used.

We have tested external Boxes and they dull or fade the 1080p.


Port 3 on the S models is very poor and not recommended. Use Internal DVI or RGVH only.


Port 3 on non s has some small advantages but excessive ring exists because of the switcher card peaking caps.


The new HD furry is a RE-Badge of the Sil907B chip just spray painted over. So it will have the same performance as the other external transcoders.

The new Sil HDMI chips are out at 225+ MHZ and will provide better HD operation.

Greg

Greg, you don't have to turn every HDMI/DVI thread into a sales pitch. The guy has a G70, give him a break and stay out of his thread.

Oh, but you are right, Jean never claimed a 400% improvement, so there is no way it can be as good as yours.

Dave,
From my original post, I do not want to use component. While I have not tried every possible component option, I have not found a transcoder that gives me acceptable video quality.

Either you have not used a good transcoder or the DACs in your device are having problems, you should not have had this problem. But hey, you obviously know more than me, so why listen to someone who has tested just about every DVI device and component transcoder that exists and some of them on a G70.

Hey Kal, Greg always throws out the offer for a demo card, but he won't send me one to compare to all the other options. See if you can get one to compare to the HDFury and let me know how it stacks up. :)

Due to the efforts of a faithful and enterprising few, we now have multiple options for running HDMI/HDCP into our CRT PJ's. My heartfelt thanks.

I just bought a Toshiba HD-D2 at Costco for 250 clams, so I'm in the hunt for the best HDCP compliant way to get digital video into my PJ.

I have a Sony G70 and would like to understand the pro's, con's, and timing of the following options:

HD-Fury
Moome's latest
JohnHWMan's latest

My only interest is viewing HD-DVD's and Blu-Ray DVD's on my current setup. Compatibility and ease of use are paramount - the family has to be able to run the theater with a simplified remote, as they do now.

So, ladies and gentlemen, weigh in please.

Regards,

Tom

Tom,

If it matters to you, the Toshiba HD-A1 (and HD-D1) are well documented as exhibiting black crush on the HDMI output, but the component output shows no such error. I am less sure about the HD-A2 and HD-D2, but I believe the situation is the same.

Hence, as long as the ICT flag is not set, the Toshibas will output 1080i on component. So for many of us, the component output of the Toshiba is preferred.

I am less familiar with the output qualities/problems with the Sony line of players.

My 2 cents

Edit: I just went over to the HD DVD Player forum and confirmed that the HD-A2 (and the HD-D2) also crush blacks on the HDMI output.

Hi am offering no sales pitch.

We dont sell any cards for the G70/G90 just Barco.

I think Mommie and JohnW make a good G70 card.

Moomie will be a true 225 MHZ.

So I recommend either of the two as the external ones are very poor from my testing. The typical problem is the 75 ohm cable amps needed lower the BW.



I hope that helps. :)

Greg

Greg. It's an ad (the guy asked about something for his G70), you are obviously trying o drum up sales to anybody reading this that has a Barco, but still your posts present lots of valuable info. :)

For what's it's worth I have ordered Moome's new dard (shipping in two weeks) and an HDFury (shipping soon) for my 9500LC ultra. I will be receiving my Radiance the end of next next week and it has only HDMI out so I really need something soon. TW I need something to get SDI into the Radiance. I do have the Algolith SDI to HDMI but it won't pass below black.

Tom,

If it matters to you, the Toshiba HD-A1 (and HD-D1) are well documented as exhibiting black crush on the HDMI output, but the component output shows no such error. I am less sure about the HD-A2 and HD-D2, but I believe the situation is the same.

Hence, as long as the ICT flag is not set, the Toshibas will output 1080i on component. So for many of us, the component output of the Toshiba is preferred.

I am less familiar with the output qualities/problems with the Sony line of players.

My 2 cents

Edit: I just went over to the HD DVD Player forum and confirmed that the HD-A2 (and the HD-D2) also crush blacks on the HDMI output.

The black crush occurs with DVI devices. There certainly is NO black crush from my A-1 to Moome's HDMI IFB card.

If you want to play DVD's with the Tosh above 480p, then a HDMI is needed.

Here is a useless post from me

Look at the last two posts and look at their names. pretty close hu

What I have seen when DVI is close to the 165Mhz limit (e.g. 1080p), you need very good cables or you will get sparkles (noise) in the blacks.

One solution is to use an optic DVI cable.

Also it depends on how clean the power is supplied to the DVI chip. The Sil907b needs a very clean supply to process a 1080p picture.

One of the problems I have noticed with external boxes is some do not have a separate power supply and require 5 volts of power from the cable. The 5 volt reference was never really intended to power the DVI chip but its being used to save money and at 1080p the current load is quite high. Noise tends to get into the reference 5 volt that powers the actual decoder DVI Sil907b chip.

Furthermore, most HDMI devices will not supply the full 5 volts. You need to power the chip off of a external supply. I.E. if you use the HDMI to DVI cable you will need to add an external power source.

We did see from our picture testing, black levels and other factors greatly improved when you drove the DVI chips with clean supplies.

Greg

Here is a useless post from me

Look at the last two posts and look at their names. pretty close hu

Distant cousin on my Fathers uncles nephews side :)

There certainly is NO black crush from my A-1 to Moome's HDMI IFB card. Is that because of HDMI, or because Moome's card has the gamma cranked (way too much)? I think you'd have to compare the two without any gamma boost to know for sure. I tried my Moome HDMI card without the gamma daughter card, but it wouldn't work without it.

Is that because of HDMI, or because Moome's card has the gamma cranked (way too much)? I think you'd have to compare the two without any gamma boost to know for sure. I tried my Moome HDMI card without the gamma daughter card, but it wouldn't work without it.

the problem is only on component input, no issue on the hdmi input
the NEW V1.33 have solve this problem, and have optional adjust gamma.
and for DVI card use DVI chip, there will have black crash problem on some HD source, like sony PS3.

Moome,

Can I return my gamma card to exchange for the new adjustable version? I was going to change the resistors, but I'd like to have the option of adjusting it.

Interesting, this stuff! I'm gonna build a new HTPC this fall (with HD-DVD from the XBox drive, and BluRay when the drives are affordable). But can I still get by with my good old Port 3 cable (Barco 808 non S with HD-144 lenses, very good tubes and better RGB Amps), or should I start saving for something else? I know that the flag for downconverting isn't going to be set for a few years yet. At least that's what I think I know...

There is a small Gama Resistor on the SIL907B. I have added on a variable resistor sometimes to allow people to adjust the Gama if requested, Its typically fixed.


There are ways of adjusting the EDID and Reflashing to change values as well.

I can show you how to mod your current card to have a variable gama pot.

IF you look at the sil 907 spec you can find the pin that the resistor connects to, replace this with a variable pot.

I will post the schematic later to show the pinouts and the resistor to take out. I have to scan the schematic.

Greg

There is a small Gama Resistor on the SIL907B. I have added on a variable resistor sometimes to allow people to adjust the Gama if requested, Its typically fixed.

I can show you how to mod your current card to have a variable gama pot.

IF you look at the sil 907 spec you can find the pin that the resistor connects to, replace this with a variable pot.

I will post the schematic later to show the pinouts and the resistor to take out. I have to scan the schematic.

Greg
Very interesting.... Hmmm.... There are quite a few other devices with the SIL907B: John's Sony IFB board, John's BG-DVI for Barco's, the HDfury...

I'm assuming this would work on any of them!

Kal

I have to scan the schematic when I get back later today. You can add it to any of them if you are good with a soldering iron.

The CORE ENGINE of all dvi converters is the same, only difference is the interfaces and how you connect to the final device.

I measured the gama of all the external boxes and the resistor was not a constant so its nice to add a pot.

Some use Sync, Video amps, others output right to the device if matching is done well.

SIL907B>Sync Convert + or - (Not gate)> Sync amp>Display
Sil9087B>Video Amp>Display

Most 907b chips fail at 1080p without sync amps ( overheat or overdrive condition) from my testing. The video out of the 907B is less picky and can be biased by a series of resistors to limit the video gain.

I.E. If the gain is too high lower the resistance of the 75ohm resistors to say 50 ohms that will bring the overall video gain down. The spec allows you to do this.

If you use a scope you can measure the video p-p from the chip and balance your resistors acc.

Greg

I'm trying to find the SIL907B engineering spec sheet/white paper on the 'net and am failing miserably... Any links?

So far all I've found is: http://www.siliconimage.com/docs/SiI-PB-0026.pdf

Kal

I'm trying to find the SIL907B engineering spec sheet/white paper on the 'net and am failing miserably... Any links?

So far all I've found is: http://www.siliconimage.com/docs/SiI-PB-0026.pdf

Kal

I don't think it is available on the net.

I measured the gama of all the external boxes and the resistor was not a constant so its nice to add a pot. What exactly do you mean by "all the external boxes" Greg?

Kal

The black crush occurs with DVI devices. There certainly is NO black crush from my A-1 to Moome's HDMI IFB card.

If you want to play DVD's with the Tosh above 480p, then a HDMI is needed.
Don,

Thanks for the clarification. I didn't mean to mislead anyone.

Man, the nuances of these things gets deep sometimes!!

There is a small Gama Resistor on the SIL907B. I have added on a variable resistor sometimes to allow people to adjust the Gama if requested, Its typically fixed.


There are ways of adjusting the EDID and Reflashing to change values as well.

I can show you how to mod your current card to have a variable gama pot.

IF you look at the sil 907 spec you can find the pin that the resistor connects to, replace this with a variable pot.

I will post the schematic later to show the pinouts and the resistor to take out. I have to scan the schematic.

GregGreg,

If you're talking about the main chip on the board (all the identifying markings are ground off all of the chips) there no way I can solder on it. The solder points are way too small for my skill level and soldering tools.

Moome's HDMI card has a daughter board with many components for the gamma circuit.

If there is such a thing, I guess I could wire up a mini 3 stacked pot in place of the 3 resistors that Moome suggest changing, but I'd really rather not. I paid almost $400 for this card. I would like to think I could get the gamma fixed without having to do it myself.

There is a small Gama Resistor on the SIL907B. I have added on a variable resistor sometimes to allow people to adjust the Gama if requested, Its typically fixed.


There are ways of adjusting the EDID and Reflashing to change values as well.

I can show you how to mod your current card to have a variable gama pot.

IF you look at the sil 907 spec you can find the pin that the resistor connects to, replace this with a variable pot.

I will post the schematic later to show the pinouts and the resistor to take out. I have to scan the schematic.

Greg
i have full spec for SII907B.
the resistor for 907 can not use for gamma, it is only for adjust the max output current ( the white level into double terminated 75 ohm). and the 907B its self can not drive long cable, longer cable will degrade signal quality. that's reason why my pervious dvi box is softer than internal card!

MOOME!

WHAT ABOUT MY REQUEST TO EXCHANGE MY GAMMA CARD FOR THE NEW ADJUSTABLE VERSION?

:eek: Holy Crap Phil!
I was just scrolling down thru the posts and i got slapped in the face by yours!
Scared me there for a minute.
Hope Moome got it too.

What exactly do you mean by "all the external boxes" Greg?

Kal

I'd like to know this too. He tosses around all the testing he has done and the huge differences between his DVI solution and other HDMI/DVI solutions, yet the only time I was able to compare his to others, I did not see this huge difference nor did others present, and we did not see massive shortcomings of others compared to his.

So, I would really like to know what others he is talking about. My suspicion is the other was moome's external DVI which as moome has said is soft. I have a suspicion that Greg is basing his evaluation of all of them on this one device most likely in a non-optimal configuration. I personally have 2 externals that perform significantly better than the old moome box and compare quite favorably with Greg's product for 1/3 the costs. So, I would like a run down of every external he tested, the configuration it was tested in, and what the short comings were.

Dave

.... not to mention that the HDfury doesn't ship until tomorrow, so there's no way he could have tested it.

Using the words "I tested them all" is a very dangerous thing as things change obviously!

Kal

Hi,

Sorry been overloaded today. I scanned the base design for the 907B at lunch.

Sorry for the large size.

http://www.eisemann-theater.com/images/DVI_Design_GE.JPG

This original design needs some updating because it was not optimized for 1080p more designed for 1080i, 720, 480p


The R6 412 Ohm is responsible for Impedance Matching. If you have a ring or reflection, which can happen, adjust this value.

The original Gain / Gama ( Gain affects gamma on a CRT) .. R2 150 ohm adjust this value.

On the original design they used two ( C30- 35) 22PF with a ferrite. The ferrite is still a good idea because it limits interference coming back into the chip. However two 22 PF caps have too much DE-Peaking for 1080p.

In other words if you have Ring you need to add a higher value. To much reduces the sharpness. This will not help some projectors, like barco the ring is caused internally and putting large caps will eventually get rid of ring but will substantially degrade the image.

If your going through cables most manufactures tend to get rid of the caps. This is bad because the reflections and ring are too great causing shadow and loss of clarity, a balance is needed.


Also the original SIL907 R7 and R8 that feed the power at 1080p cause noise and HDCP handshake issues. I move these 10k values up to 75 ohms. That makes the 1080p picture more stable, have better focus and less bit drop.

There are a couple of other things that I recommend to make the picture better on this chip but I don't have my book with me today.

Greg

Hope Moome got it too.Moome isn't big on returns or exchanges. I've been thru this before with him. I'm pretty sure he saw my original request but chose to ignore it. If he allows me to exchange mine it sets a precedent for others. That could result in a lot of gamma card returns. So I figured my only chance of getting a response was to scream a little. ;)

Will the squeaky wheel get the grease? I sure hope so.

Moome isn't big on returns or exchanges. I've been thru this before with him. I'm pretty sure he saw my original request but chose to ignore it. If he allows me to exchange mine it sets a precedent for others. That could result in a lot of gamma card returns. So I figured my only chance of getting a response was to scream a little. ;)

Will the squeaky wheel get the grease? I sure hope so.

sorry, i have not notice your post last night,
i can accept update no problem,but i have not figure out the cost.by the way, the 150ohm of 907B is for 8bit current DAC output reference,
larger the current output level will only enlarge all the video signal >0.7Vp-p.

Moome isn't big on returns or exchanges. I've been thru this before with him. I'm pretty sure he saw my original request but chose to ignore it. If he allows me to exchange mine it sets a precedent for others. That could result in a lot of gamma card returns. So I figured my only chance of getting a response was to scream a little. ;)

Will the squeaky wheel get the grease? I sure hope so.Let me guess...
you return your HDTV and PC back to Costco for an exchange every time a new model comes out? :rolleyes:

This just sucks! No way I'm buying a card from Moome.I do not have faith in Moome. Too many reports of problems. Hell, I can't even get him to tell me if they're in stock or not. I really need one, but count me out.
Look at Moome's posting history. About once a week he makes one post. When he does post, he address' only one of the many questions that have been ask of him. Maybe you'll get lucky...I don't think the language barrier explains the repeated delays. There's no excuse for taking pre-payment on a product that may not be ready for several times longer than you promisedYou're absolutely right! The cards didn't work, and Mome only suggestion was to use component instead. I applaud Moome for his current efforts, but I have absolutely no remorse about anything I've said.It seems that you can't be a specialty card manufacturer and communicate like a normal person. Like Casper and Moome, it appears John will be heard from infrequently, if at all. :rolleyes:You can't get Casper or Moome to even answer correspondence, much less apologize for not doing so.
Your squeaky wheel is so loud, you should just threaten moome to send you a free card every time he builds something. :(

sorry, i have not notice your post last night,
i can accept update no problem,but i have not figure out the cost.by the way, the 150ohm of 907B is for 8bit current DAC output reference,
larger the current output level will only enlarge all the video signal >0.7Vp-p.The cost? I've only had it a month and it doesn't work right!

That's F'd up! I want you to FIX it, not update it! :mad:

Let me guess...
you return your HDTV and PC back to Costco for an exchange every time a new model comes out? :rolleyes:


Your squeaky wheel is so loud, you should just threaten moome to send you a free card every time he builds something. :(I have a story about my previous dealings with Moome. It's not at all flattering. I chose not to bring it up, but you're pushing me into a corner here Clarence. What do you want me to do?

The cost? I've only had it a month and it doesn't work right!

That's F'd up! I want you to FIX it, not update it! :mad:
sorry, i mean every one bought my card can have update, your case is special. i will change new for you! do be so mad :)

One of the problems I have noticed with external boxes is some do not have a separate power supply and require 5 volts of power from the cable. The 5 volt reference was never really intended to power the DVI chip but its being used to save money and at 1080p the current load is quite high. Noise tends to get into the reference 5 volt that powers the actual decoder DVI Sil907b chip.

Greg I read on the hd fury site somewhere .cant remeber where, but they have added a 5 volt input for an external power supply. Some one else chime in if they seen this on the site also.

Athansios

I'm going to look for it now......

Found it !

As a bonus, you may like to heard about some of our unveiled features:
- HDfury have a +5v input (ONLY needed if your HDMI cable is over 10 meters !)
- EDID detective feature: HDfury EDID eprom can be reprogrammed by your computer through it's Graphic Card ! (This feature is reserved to professionals)

Hope this helps

sorry, i mean every one bought my card can have update, your case is special. i will change new for you! do be so mad :)Thank you Moome! :) I greatly appreciate it. I'll get the gamma board shipped to you tomorrow.

Thank you Moome! :) I greatly appreciate it. I'll get the gamma board shipped to you tomorrow.

you are welcome, i am not intend make much money on these card, i only want to let CRT projector to accept good HD signal. more and more HD source are in themarket, and all of them have HDMI YCbCr output , the DVI RGB mode is just a option and sometimes have black level problem when convert from YCbCr, that's why i recommend using YcbCr mode for HDMI.

What's he saying? Use the component instead of the HM if you can? Or HDMI YCbCr istead of HDMI RGB?


Where does one get the 5V supply for the HDFury?

Wow, lots of great information here. Nothing is ever as simple as it seems. Thanks all.

GEBrown indicated that there may be a 'black crush' problem with the Toshiba HD-A2/(D2). Don then indicated it was only an issue with DVI, and I think Moome confirmed this to be the case.

So I should have no issues with this player and an HDMI input card, correct?

Since the phrase 'black crush' is open to interpretation, I have to ask what may be a stupid question. Over an HDMI connection out of the HD-A2 to either moome's or John's internal card, what range of digital input will show up as a measurable output voltage on the DAC's in the card? 0-255? 16-235? Something else? Or do the hi-def formats have completely different encoding standards that make my question truly stupid?

The way I'm running my HTPC today, I go above peak white and below black into the projector, and calibrate so all of the below black info doesn't show up, and the above white info doesn't overdrive anything in the analog video chain. I've found this to method to give good results, and I'm wondering if the same is possible with an HDMI interface.

Regards,

Tom

Where does one get the 5V supply for the HDFury?My understanding is that a simple +5DVC wall transformer will do. There's a plug on the side of the HDfury that you can see here:

http://www.curtpalme.com/imagesp/HDfury_inside_small.jpg

Kal

I am using the Greg E DVI mod for my Barco with outstanding results. The blacks do not get crushed and there is no need for the external black box connection on port 3. If any member in the NY & N.J. area would like more info and set up assistance you can email me at vectorscope2000@yahoo.com