My installer mentioned this product to me in our last meeting, but i'm not sure how it works..Does it service only one movie zone and multiple music zones? So not as versatile as say Kaleidescape?
Thanks,
Justin

Your statements are correct.

My understanding is that the Imerge MS5000 can supply video to multiple zones, just not simultaneously. I guess it depends on your lifestyle as to whether or not this is an issue. The Imerge does cost considerably less. It also is supposed to have a very good built in scaler that's capable of outputting up to 1080p resolution. And, unlike the Kaleidascape, it can take direct downloads from Music Giant. The Kaleidascape is very elegant and flexible and appears to have a number of strong proponents here on the forum -- some who have poo-poo'd the Imerge as just another also-ran. But the more I look into the MS5000, the more I'm impressed with its capabilities. I think in time it will earn the respect it deserves.

My understanding is that the Imerge MS5000 can supply video to multiple zones, just not simultaneously.
Well of course it can :). A $50 VCR can supply video to multiple rooms as long as you plug it into a matrix switcher. For that matter it can also supply video to multiple rooms simultaneously, as long as you all rooms are watching the same thing. The fact remains that it has single zone video capability, that is what the term zone refers to. And you are entirely right, that may be entirely adequate for many people.

QQQ,

The one distinction between using a matrix switcher or some other cluged-together outboard method is that it would not be part of the internal GUI as it is with the MS5000.
And if having multiple/simultaneous video capability is important, one could always buy two MS5000's and still be under the cost of the Kaleidascape while picking up additonal storage capacity.

Does it have the ease of ripping like the Kaleidescape? I don't want to spend 9 months putting my dvd collection onto the system...

Does it have the ease of ripping like the Kaleidescape? I don't want to spend 9 months putting my dvd collection onto the system...

90 seconds for CDs and 12 to 27 minutes for DVDs (depending on encryption method or lack thereof).

Oh ok, that's awesome...Just insert the dvd and it rips-wonder how products like this will affect Kaleidescapes pricing.

Oh ok, that's awesome...Just insert the dvd and it rips-wonder how products like this will affect Kaleidescapes pricing.

Don't forget that Kaleidescape is the only system that rips DVD's legally, that may matter for a lot of high-end buyers that would be shopping for these systems.

From what I understand, the Kaleidescape system is far above any DIY Media server system (ease of use, flexiblity, and legal) so that is the reason for the premium price.

However, the Imerge system just seems to be another one of the many media servers built around a PC. If you only want DVD's in one location, why not get a Media Center PC with the Sony Firewire DVD changer and some XBox 360's? I'm sure you could configure your own system for much less than the Imerge system and yet have much more flexibility.

As for the quality of the Media Center PC, that's entirely your choice but there are several Media Center PC's that meet the requirements of this forum such as the ones from Niveus http://www.niveus.com/

(And yes, the Niveus PC's support DVD's at 1080P as well as downloads from Music Giants as well as many other things that Imerge doesn't do).

Pete---are you saying that the iMerge as shipped rips encrypted DVDs? Or must you supply your own software to do that? If the former, then I expect the DVDCCA to be knocking at their door at some point... :)

i am pretty sure that they are oput of hte UK, so the DVDCCA may not have the same type of jurisdiction.

Imerge fits in with the high end MCE boxes, THe crestron adagio(less the slick tie in to crestron panels) Video Request, and a few others.

In all of these things, trying to compare is almost useless, because many of them do not line up feature to feature. and even just having a feature does not mean that it is the same as the implementation of any others.

What it always comes down to is identify what you NEED and what you want, then find a group of products that line up with that. then get some demos and make your decision based on what fits best with you.

Comparing to K is silly, nobody can match up. ANd no imerge or MCE/XBOX setup will even come close. However, it may better suit your needs and your system and most importantly... your wallet!

K will never lose a sale due to another product being "similar". K can lose potential sales because people feel that the value prop of K is not for them.

I would love a K... but i feel that my wallet will be having no part of it! :D

Dizz, they might be exempt from prosecution or civil action in the U.K.---but the moment they start distributing this in the U.S.... Simply locating your HQ in another country isn't protection.

oh i know, but it gets ackward and then as such stays a little under the radar.

Last I heard it does not just allow insert and rip, it requires user software just as all the other solutions do. BUT, that is old info.

Pete,

Are you a seller of this product or a potential buyer. You seem intent in on promoting it instead of just acknowledging what it does and doesn't do.
QQQ,

The one distinction between using a matrix switcher or some other cluged-together outboard method is that it would not be part of the internal GUI as it is with the MS5000.
I am not sure if you don't understand nor why you think what you are saying is even relevant here. The Imerge has a single zone video output and would require a matrix switcher. The GUI has NOTHING to do with it. Yes, it has an on-screen GUI as does every single video server on the market that I am aware of and yes it's nice to have one. Not sure what that is supposed to have to do with the above issue.
And if having multiple/simultaneous video capability is important, one could always buy two MS5000's and still be under the cost of the Kaleidascape while picking up additonal storage capacity.
Now you are getting even sillier. If you add two units than you have to burn all the DVD's on each unit twice AND you are FAR beyond the price of purchasing a K system.

I'm going to post some prices in a moment because these pricing claims that are being made are NOT accurate.

PRICING COMPARISON
Sorry for the ultra bold but since inaccurate pricing claims keep getting tossed out in this thread and others I want to make sure people are not misinformed. I don't think this is purposeful (at least on the part of the posters), they are simply repeating the false information that seems to be being used to promote the Imerge.

First let's compare an Imerge versus Kaleidescape large system, which is the one Imerge is oh so conveniently choosing to do the comparison against.

1a. Imerge MS5000 (video 1 zone, audio 4 zone, max of 3 terabytes) $15,000
1b. Kaleidescape (video 1 zone, audio 4 zone, 3 terabytes, maxes at 9 TB) $23,470

Now perhaps if you are really bad at math $15,000 is "half the price of the Kaleidescape" but not in my book.

Now let's delve a little deeper. Let's start with Pete's statement above that if you use two Imerge units you could have dual zone capability and still be lower than a Kaleidescape.

2a. (2) Imerge MS5000 with 3 terabytes $30,000
2b. Kalediscape 5U with 2 video zones, 4 audio zones and 3 terabytes $26,965
2b. Kaleidecape 5U with 2 video zones, 4 audio zones and 4.5 terabytes $29,950
2c. Kaleidescape 5U with 2 video zones, 4 audio zones and 6 terabytes $32,935

As you can see the moment you start to scale the K actually becomes less expensive, EVEN using their larger server which is what I am quoting above.

NOW THE ZINGER
The above comparison was with Kaleidescapes larger server that can hold up to 12 hard drives. Now let's use their smaller server which maxes out at 3 terabytes, same as the Imerge.

3a. Imerge MS5000 (video 1 zone, audio 4 zone, 3 terabytes) $15,000
3b. Kaleidescape 1U Server (video 1 zone, audio 4 zone, 3 terabytes) $16,980

OOPS!

Looks like who ever is coming up with these numbers for Imerge needs to take some math classes.

Finally, let's look at the price of a dual zone K system using their smaller server versus buying two of the Imerge units as Pete suggested.

4a. (2) Imerge MS5000 with 3 terabytes $30,000
4b. Kaleidescape 1U Server (video 2 zone, audio 4 zone, 3 terabytes) $20,475

Pete,

"Are you a seller of this product or a potential buyer. You seem intent in on promoting it instead of just acknowledging what it does and doesn't do."

QQQ,
I have audiophile friends with Imerge sound servers that I think are very nice, and I'm indeed considering the purchase of the MS5000. I guess you'd say I'm an Imerge admirer as, it would appear, are you for K. I'm quite aware that I'm not as knowledgeable as you and others here, so I've had to put on my crash helmut and wade into the discussion without fear of ridicule. That being said, I acknowledge once again the the K is King. But I think it may be wrong to dismissively characterize the Imerge MS5000 as being simply another of "that group of media servers built around a PC" -- as if this self-evidently disqualifies it from any value comparison with the K. The MS5000 is a brand new product and I admit not to know all there is to know about it. As I can glean more information about its features and functionality I'd be happy to share it if anyone else here cares. Otherwise, tell me to bugger off and I'll oblige.

But I think it may be wrong to dismissively characterize the Imerge MS5000 as being simply another of "that group of media servers built around a PC" -- as if this self-evidently disqualifies it from any value comparison with the K.
Pete, I agree and it was not I who made that statement. I must say though that now that I have done a real pricing comparison I am actually much less intrigued by the Imerge. I am happy to see Imerge and others expanding this market. I just don't like misinformation in any form.

Again, I am NOT accusing you of purposely mis-informing, I am quite sure someone working for or on imerge's behalf came up with these numbers. But I hope you can now see that they simply are not accurate.

QQQ,
It's late and I can't spend any more time on this exercise. I will research the prices and memory options to see if your math is correct or not and post my findings in a day or two. I'll just say that the delivery of your information above is now escalating from what before was merely passive-aggressive. You need to get a grip.

QQQ,
It's late and I can't spend any more time on this exercise. I will research the prices and memory options to see if your math is correct or not and post my findings in a day or two. I'll just say that the delivery of your information above is now escalating from what before was merely passive-aggressive. You need to get a grip.
Me thinks you need to get a grip if you think because someone disagrees with you it's "passive-aggressive" and now "escalating beyond "passive-aggressive".

Pete, I don't see anything remotely passive-aggressive about Q's earlier delivery... aggressive, maybe. But given how many times we hear sutff like "why should I buy a K when I can get <inferior-solution-X> for less than half the price," it does seem like a strong response is warranted. I'd recommend not taking it personally, then, because you're being lumped in with so many other folks who are making similar arguments.

Michael,

Your field says enginerd but I thought you were a mathematician...

When the math professor's wife returns home from work, she finds an envelope on the living room table. She opens it and finds a letter from her husband:

My dearest wife,

We have been married for nearly thirty years, and I still love you as much as on the day I proposed. You must realize, however, that you are now 54 years old and no longer able to satisfy certain needs I still have. I very much hope that you are not hurt to learn that, while you're reading this, I'm in a hotel room with an 18-year-old freshman girl from my calculus class. I'll be home before midnight.

Your husband, who will never stop loving you.

When the professor returns from the hotel shortly before midnight, he also finds an envelope in the living room. He opens it and reads:

My beloved husband,

You may recall that you, too, are 54 years old and no longer able to satisfy certain needs I still have. I thus hope that you are not hurt to learn that, while you're reading this, I am in a hotel room with the 18-year-old pool boy.

Your loving wife.

P.S. As a mathematician, you are certainly aware of the fact that 18 goes into 54 many more times than 54 goes into 18. Therefore, don't stay up and wait for me.

Well then...I've contacted the new Australian dealer for K and received some quotes...It all seems fine, except they want $2000AUD per 750gb harddrive and the kplayer5000 and kplayer 3000 are $5600AUD and $4200AUD each-seems expensive to me. Imerge will be quite a bit cheaper, but I don't think it will be able to compete as a system-eI like the idea of NAS though on the Imerge.

Well then...I've contacted the new Australian dealer for K and received some quotes...It all seems fine, except they want $2000AUD per 750gb harddrive and the kplayer5000 and kplayer 3000 are $5600AUD and $4200AUD each-seems expensive to me. Imerge will be quite a bit cheaper, but I don't think it will be able to compete as a system-eI like the idea of NAS though on the Imerge.
I agree NAS is a nice option. It's really tough to say one approach is "better" than the other (NAS versus no NAS). K has built their system on being "rock solid". Allowing outboard NAS will without a doubt reduce reliability BUT as a positive decrease price. As a user I would like an NAS option. At the same time I understand K wanting to protect their reliability. I have an NAS and have had to send some time addressing issues and rebuilding the RAID drives. With K no such issues, it's all monitored and taken care of for me.

Yeah, you know, I used to rattle by saber about the NAS thing with K awhile back. That is, I either wanted the K to read its data from my own NAS, or to allow a portion of its storage space to be dedicated to file sharing.

But now that storage is so cheap I don't think there's a powerful argument for it anymore. I mean, once I offload your movie and uncompressed music storage responsibilities to the Kaleidescape, what do I have left? Well, PC backups, work data, email, photos, and maybe some iPod-friendly compressed music. Geez, that fits in under a TB easy. At today's prices that's well under $1K.

So if I'm ready to plonk down $20-30K for a K, it's just not worrying that it is somehow inefficient or inelegant for me to have two RAID boxes sitting around, one for media (the K) and one for everything else.

Can i use any tb drives with my K system, or do i need to use their drives?

You need to use theirs.

juzmister,

I cannot speak to any pricing discrepancies due to differences between selling prices in our different countries, but again, make sure you are comparing apples to apples. Kaleidescape has a 1.75" server and a 8.75" server. Their 1.75" server is equivalent to the Imerge product in terms of total storage allowable. It holds 3 TB (4 x 750 GB) which is the same as Imerge is quoting (Imerge is quoting 7 x 500 in their literature).

there are different prices for different countries. Distribution costs...

there are different prices for different countries. Distribution costs...
I thought it was just that they don't like Australians.

Pete,

...

I have audiophile friends with Imerge sound servers that I think are very nice, and I'm indeed considering the purchase of the MS5000.....

I actually owned an Imerge, the S2000, for about a year, IMHO, I would be hard pressed to describe it as "Audiophile" quality (albeit I was comparing it side-by-side with a Linn Unidisk 1.1 which is in a different class altogether). Even taking the S2000's digital output through to a Remiyo DAP-777 DAC, the sound quality was not up to scratch... specifically imaging suffered, soundstaged narrowed as compared to my Linn. I actually tried to improve things by using a Monarchy DIP, power conditioners, better cables, etc... it never came anywhere close to what the Linn could deliver. Ultimately I gave up trying to "fix it", the limitations of its storage capacity was also a problem, and I eventually sold it.

Recently I took delivery of a K-system,... not only am I completely blown away by its user-interface and operational robustness, but more importantly, taking its digital-output, and putting it though my Remiyo.... I can honestly say it rivals my Linn!

Theres probably a bits-are-just-bits flame-war waiting to emerge (no pun intended ;) ) from my post... but if you're thinking "Audiophile quality"... based on my experience, I'd say stay clear of the Imerge.

In defense of Imege though, its Xiva software system would make it NOT one of those stock-standard PC/Windows Media Server based clones. I'm sure the MS5000 is a much more evolved beast.

Hopefully sound quality is ok for movies...I'll be feeding it into a G61 and 5 A350i meridian in walls..For the rest of the house, audio quality is not a huge issue, it's just going to be backround/party music.

Question about pricing on the K: What would a K system cost that would store 400DVDs and that would supply audio (music) to 5 zones?

Pete---are you saying that the iMerge as shipped rips encrypted DVDs? Or must you supply your own software to do that? If the former, then I expect the DVDCCA to be knocking at their door at some point... :)

Yes...you load something like ANYDVD decryption software into the MS5000 server and you're good to go.

Of course, that software is by definition... illegal.

Question about pricing on the K: What would a K system cost that would store 400DVDs and that would supply audio (music) to 5 zones?

Kaleidescape 1U Server (video 1 zone, audio 4 zone, 3 terabytes) $16,980

And if you need to expand, you can add drives (i am not sure if that is the max drives) or get another server and add it to the config. it just shows up as additional space. Whether you have one server or 21, it matters not. all that happens is the list of movies gets longer. The servers cluster to appear as one large storage system.

Of course, that software is by definition... illegal.

AnyDVD
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
AnyDVD
Image:Anydvd logo.PNG
Developer: Slysoft
Latest release: 6.1.6.0 / June 1, 2007
Preview release: 6.1.4.2 beta / May 3, 2007
OS: Windows
Genre: DVD Ripper
License: Shareware
Website: www.slysoft.com/
AnyDVD is a Windows driver that decrypts and removes protection from DVDs on-the-fly. With an upgrade, it will also do the same for HD-DVD and BluRay. The AnyDVD program runs in the background, making discs unprotected and region-free. It also disables prohibited user operations, such as fast forward and skip, and allows jumping directly to the main menu or movie. In addition to removing digital protections, AnyDVD will also defeat Macrovision analog copy protection. Analog protection distorts the video signal to prevent high quality copying from the output. AnyDVD is also able to remove copy-protection from audio CDs.

As of version 6.1.4.3, AnyDVD has a revised ripper that repairs Sony ARccOS, Macrovision RipGuard, and other structural protections. It ensures strict compliance with third-party tools, particularly DVD Shrink and Nero Recode. The ripper is based on code from Elby's CloneDVD, a product by Slysoft's parent company. Previous versions used a ripper based on FixVTS, but FixVTS was recently shut down by legal intimidation and threats from Sony.

AnyDVD is outlawed in Germany, as it removes copy protection from DVDs. The Heise news portal was sued by the record industry for linking to Slysoft's website in a news report. The Publisher subsequently countersued with claims of violation of their constitutionally guaranteed freedom of the press and has as of April 2007 lost two appeal proceedings. The case is currently in front of the federal constitutional court.

On February 17, 2007, Slysoft released AnyDVD HD. The program comes with same functionality as AnyDVD, but with additional features for full HD-DVD (High Definition DVD) support, including decryption of AACS encrypted HD-DVD movie discs. Support for AACS encryption and Region Code removal from Blu-ray disks was added in version 6.1.3.0, released March 5, 2007.

A. Is this some sort of attempt to prove that it does not circumvent copyright protection and thereby is legal?

B. As has been previously mentioned, Wikipedia is the Cheese whiz of knowledge.

As long as we are quoting Wikipedia...
Digital Millennium Copyright Act
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) is a United States copyright law which implements two 1996 WIPO treaties. It criminalizes production and dissemination of technology, devices, or services that are used to circumvent measures that control access to copyrighted works (commonly known as DRM) and criminalizes the act of circumventing an access control, even when there is no infringement of copyright itself.

I actually think you might be able to argue that AnyDVD is legal to use, based on the DMCA's interoperability clause. But it sure isn't legal to sell.

You guys sure about that? Ripping DVD's is not my thing but I posted asking about this a while ago because everyone who rips DVD's on to MS media center uses two programs, one such as Any DVD and a second whose name I do not remember. I was told some BS, and I am using the term not as a pejorative, that in order to overcome legal issues two products must be purchased, one to make a "backup copy" and one to convert that copy into something watchable from the server or some such thing. This was supposedly why they have not shut down these companies as they did a company that was making one to one DVD copying software a couple of years. This is definitely NOT my area of expertise, I just am under the impressions that just as K found a "loophole" to legally burn DVD's, selling these separate programs was also a "loophole".

What the truth is, is anyones guess.

It's quite simple: K is the only company in existence today that has a system that they can legally sell you to rip a DVD to hard disk storage. And Kaleidescape had to go to court to prove they were complying with their license! Anyone else who sells you the means to do so is doing so without a license and violating the DMCA.

Where it's a bit more murky is the end-user case. That is, if you have a program to circumvent CSS, I believe you can justify its use under the "interoperability" exception. But I'm not sure I'd want to test that in court :)

AMX also has a licence for their MAX system. ALthough i do believe they are working with the DVDCCA to ensure legality right now.

End result though, they do have a licence. so there are two companies.

Of course, if you do not believe in the DCMA and feel that it oversteps fair use, then you are allowed to do whatever the hell you like.

THis is my favourite quote, it comes from a manufacturer of a similar system...

Q. Can I use **** to store encrypted, copyrighted DVD content?
A. A decision handed down by a Federal court in 2001 has called into question the legality making backup copies of a copyrighted DVD under a law called the DMCA (The Digital Millennium Copyright Act). Prior copyright law has always upheld the rights of individuals to make backup copies of content for their own use. The court’s interpretation of DMCA was that any defeating of the encryption software that resides on a DVD for the purpose of copying it to another media, even if the intent and use of the copy is for backup purposes, is not lawful. Several cases are presently before higher courts that are expected to either reverse or modify this ruling.

**** systems are presently not capable of uploading encrypted DVDs. When and if the legal environment changes, owners of **** systems are able to download open-source code software (a DVD decryption utility) from the web that enables the **** system to be used for storing commercial DVD content. **** systems have a utility that permits customers to integrate a decryption utility This utility is primarily used by corporate customers who have proprietary encryption algorithms, but can also be used by the customer for integrating a decryption utility that works for commercial DVDs. Instructions for installation of decryption software are provided in the **** installation guide. Users are free to download DVD decryption utility software at such time as they feel the legal environment in their jurisdiction permits such activity. Nothing in this FAQ provided by ******** should be considered legal advice.

Kaleidescape 1U Server (video 1 zone, audio 4 zone, 3 terabytes) $16,980

And if you need to expand, you can add drives (i am not sure if that is the max drives) or get another server and add it to the config. it just shows up as additional space. Whether you have one server or 21, it matters not. all that happens is the list of movies gets longer. The servers cluster to appear as one large storage system.

My understanding is that the 1U is a 1.5TB with RAID 0 (four drives total) and it only records in wav. I don't think it comes with any separate audio outs (the Imerge MS5000 comes with 4 discrete audio outs in addition to the digital video). The 1U I thought was in the $20K price vacinity. Maybe they lowered it to $17K.

The 3 TB unit from K with which I was comparing the MS5000 "@ half the price" is the 3U, which the last time I checked was over $30K. They may well have lowered the price on this model as well.

My understanding is that the 1U is a 1.5TB with RAID 0 (four drives total) and it only records in wav. I don't think it comes with any separate audio outs (the Imerge MS5000 comes with 4 discrete audio outs in addition to the digital video). The 1U I thought was in the $20K price vacinity. Maybe they lowered it to $17K.

The 3 TB unit from K with which I was comparing the MS5000 "@ half the price" is the 3U, which the last time I checked was over $30K. They may well have lowered the price on this model as well.
Pete,

I'm a Kaleidescape dealer and was taking my pricing directly off of the price sheet. Dizzman used to be the training manager for Kaleidescape! You are correct that the 1U unit server does not come with audio zones, that's why I included the 4 zone audio player in the pricing. Without the 4 zone audio player the price would be $2900 less.

As for the larger unit, yes, a couple of years ago it cost more. Your understanding that the 1U unit only holds 1.5 TB is incorrect and the unit is not raid 0. The pricing on the 1U unit is not 17K nor was it ever 20K. The starting pricing on it is 10K WITH a DVD player/reader. However with all drives full AND with a dvd reader/player AND the music player it is 17K.

A quick trip to their website will show this information (except for pricing).

www.kaleidescape.com

THat price which was quoted from Q's post includes (i believe) a Music player which is a seperate networked component with 4 discrete outs. The K merely grabs the CD in its native form. there is no transcoding or compression applied.

The 1 U server can be configured up to 2.25 TB. it is a proprietary RAID 4 they use. And additional servers can be clustered as large as you want.

I can not speak to the accuracy of the price. i was merely quoting Q's price. he is far more up to date on that than i.

THe one u was never in the 20K range. And the big server has not been in the 30K range (stock config) for a very long time. If you call K with your specific needs/config size, they are usually quite good about getting a list price. And there are some dealers here that would be willing to give you an accurate price if you spell out your config.

Like anything, tossing numbers (just like features) around does not tell the same story, what about service contracts, what about software updates (do they need operator or dealer intervention) What about MetaData updates (how accurate is the metadata) can you add your own metatdata, etc, etc, etc.

When i started at K, i was asked to put together a matrix comparison. It just does not work, the data changes too fast and the features have so much more to them than simple line descriptions can provide.

Here is an example of a matrix done by somebody... (it was out of date and horribly wrong before it was even published)
http://www.axonix.com/mediamax/featuresCompare.php

Wrong in some categories, and totally misleading in others. And many features do not even come close to telling what they really mean as far as legality etc. THe product may be great for what it is, but they do not really compare.

Even talking about it is much a waste of time. THe only thing to do is find out what you need, see what products fit, then get demos. THen figure out which one you can afford.

never mind then...

BTW, in the interests of accuracy, the 1U unit will hold approximately 337 DVD's since some of that space is used for disc redundancy. While it holds (4) 750 GB drives, one is used for redundancy.

As for the larger server it actually holds up to 9 TB.

QQQ and Dizzman,

Thanks for the additional information. It would appear that some of my impressions with respect to costs were outdated and pretty far off the mark. There is not a huge desparity in pricing between a fully loaded 1U and an MS5000. The 1U is only a couple grand more. And storage capacity at 337 DVDs is only 63 fewer than with an MS5000. So with these parameters lining up fairly closely, we'll have to look elsewhere for the differences, and Michael probably has it right that it's a matter of what you want to accomplish and how much you're prepared to pay.

also, beware of anybody quoting disc storage number. there are lots of caveats with those.

Kaleidescape 1U Server (video 1 zone, audio 4 zone, 3 terabytes) $16,980

And if you need to expand, you can add drives (i am not sure if that is the max drives) or get another server and add it to the config. it just shows up as additional space. Whether you have one server or 21, it matters not. all that happens is the list of movies gets longer. The servers cluster to appear as one large storage system.

Dizzman,

Does this price include the movie guide software ($2K option)? And if one of the cartridges is for back up, wouldn't that translate into 2.2TB for storage?

it is less than three. FOr exact details, call them.

Amount of discs stored is also very tricky. and there is quite a bit of inconsistency on how people quote that. Discs can vary greatly. 90 minute movie vs. 1 season of a tv show. Extra footage, all soundtracks, etc.

the movie guide software updates are free for one year and then 2K for lifetime updates. And as it has been pointed out by others, K movie guide is head and shoulders above any others.

Where are you located Pete, you really should go take a look at the system. whether you want to buy one or not, take a good look. then you will see what the comparisons are.

Dizzman,

Does this price include the movie guide software ($2K option)? And if one of the cartridges is for back up, wouldn't that translate into 2.2TB for storage?
Correct, that's what I was saying a few posts up. So there really isn't a perfect apples for apples comparison. The Imerge will hold about 60? discs more than the smaller K since the K requires one disc for redundancy. It looks like the Imerge does too (used one disc for redundancy), but the Imerge holds 5 discs and the smaller K holds 4, hence the difference. The larger K can hold up to 9 TB as mentioned earlier.

Hi
We are a UK manufacturer of high end media servers that offer something that neither the Kaleidascape or Imerge system can offer, that being Multizone HD DVD and Blu-Ray storage and playback.
We are supplying this information, not to advertise our products but to allow those interested in Highend media storage to make a fair decision on what is available before making their purchase.
If you would like to look up our products just type "Lewis MS9000" into google.

Thankyou for reading this.

Cool, more illegal copying of copyrighted material.

onto windows media centre.

Illegal? What happened to "fair use"? In theory, you're allowed to use the material any way you want as long it's for personal use and ripping DVDs to a server *in theory* is legal, not that lawyers won't try to make it seem illegal or change the law to make it illegal. And maybe they have, but it shouldn't be if you go by how it was written.

The sad thing is that consumers are forced to pay $billions every year to deal with Hollywood et al trying to protect itself - HDMI for example - and then have ever limited options as far as use of stuff that they've *purchased*. I say anything that allows more flexibility in use is welcome.

unfortunately that is your definition. Fair use is not a catch all that has whatever meaning anyone interprets. There is no theory involved.

To break the copyright protection on a disk is copyright violation. whether you like it or not... it is a fact. And a violation of the DMCA.

Will they go after me for ripping diskc onto a server? No. will they go after the folks who make the software that ILLEGALLY breaks the copyright protection? yes. Will they go after the folks who make a product that ILLEGALLY copies the content onto a server... yes.

Look at it this way, K is legal and they still went after them.

Well, I'm not saying they won't go after anyone, just saying that what is legal or illegal is largely dependent on what judge you get. One could also interpret any attempt to *prevent* fair use is illegal, but no one to my knowledge has done that. It seems to me that congress should step up and straighten it out so that fair use is preserved and companies that offer fair use while not decreasing security are protected. I find it scary that DVD protection is completely broken, the genie is totally out of the bottle, yet they cling to the concept that breaking the already broken protection is illegal. Breaking the protection should only be illegal if it is done with the intent of intellectual property theft, rather than *use*. Intent has always played a huge part in the law. Without intent, there is no murder. Without intent, possession of stolen property is not illegal. And traditionally, you can't make illegal technologies that have legitimate legal purposes. So they're arbitrarily making just breaking the code illegal. They're making a *huge* exception for the film industry because people have been bought off.

The laws of the US are regularly twisted by attorneys to mean what they want it to mean. Most of what the federal government does is patently unconstitutional, but they're the government, who's going to stop them?

Look at it this way... K who had a license and actually makes the content MORE secure, got sued. others who make stuff that uses grey market software are left alone.

However the DMCA is pretty clear. If you BREAK security software, that is what is not allowed. So by ripping this stuff, you break the security stuff. that is what is illegal.

Congress wants no part of this. And yes, going after CSS like it is a real thing anymore is dumb. but the threat of it keeps manufaturers for large scale solutions in check.

Lets just hope that one day the MMC stuff will become real. then we have a chance that a judge will tell the DVD CCA to get stuffed.

Is this some sort of attempt to prove that it does not circumvent copyright protection and thereby is legal?

and so is going over 55 m.p.h....but nobody cares.....

If this were an auto enthusiast site would you quote the speed limit every time someone posted their 0-100 times?

Maybe k has been tarketed if other companies are doing it with no recourse. Maybe one of their former employees had a pompous, know it all attitude ,with the wrong guy....never know!!

and so is going over 55 m.p.h....but nobody cares..... ...until they get busted... or in this case, until the company they bought their unit from gets put out of business and they lose all product support...

...until they get busted... or in this case, until the company they bought their unit from gets put out of business and they lose all product support...

well Mike I will put it into perspective....most high end audio companies are always on the verge on staying in business...and how much coin do you lose when purchasing one the new top of line digital projectors? Probably more than a purchase of a media player!



I would spend a fair amount if a unit similar to K features, also had hi def capabilities. So I want to know about the options of there and if the business has the potential for problems , whether it be financial, legal, or other I am willing to take that risk.

Everytime someone posts the features of a new server with extra features, they get lambasted and cyber-bullied into losing interest about talking about the product because they have to answer the over 55 m.p.h. comments...and like I said before this is the same disclaimer on all VCR movies tapes from the past and we all know how many VCR copies of movies that are out there (millions) and how many lawsuits against these so called law-breakers?

We have been force fed digital technology, whether we like it or not. If my new digital projector is going to look as good as my old CRT, then I have to send it a 1080 signal and purchase the new Hi def copy of a movie that I already own in regular DVD.:mad:and in some cases I also own it on VHS. It's to bad K got targeted, maybe the cost of being on the forefront. either way I don't care about fattening Hollywoods pockets anymore than I have to, which is all this is IMO...

Joey

well Mike I will put it into perspective....most high end audio companies are always on the verge on staying in business...and how much coin do you lose when purchasing one the new top of line digital projectors? Probably more than a purchase of a media player!That is a very fair point!

THe issue Joey is that when somebody adds that they have HD whatever disc support, they do not tell you ANY caveats. that would be bad marketing.

And since MMC is not ratified, you are using software like sly which is not legal. whether you argree with it or not. So if you go into a product search and know upfront that you are using somehting that is questionably legal, and might go away in that they could be shut down or something could happen with now discs that makes them un rippable, then fine.

Most folks are not aware of the grey market area involved. here is a Quote from Xperinets webset.

Q. Can I use MIRV to store encrypted, copyrighted DVD content?
A. A decision handed down by a Federal court in 2001 has called into question the legality making backup copies of a copyrighted DVD under a law called the DMCA (The Digital Millennium Copyright Act). Prior copyright law has always upheld the rights of individuals to make backup copies of content for their own use. The court’s interpretation of DMCA was that any defeating of the encryption software that resides on a DVD for the purpose of copying it to another media, even if the intent and use of the copy is for backup purposes, is not lawful. Several cases are presently before higher courts that are expected to either reverse or modify this ruling.

MIRV systems are presently not capable of uploading encrypted DVDs. When and if the legal environment changes, owners of MIRV systems are able to download open-source code software (a DVD decryption utility) from the web that enables the MIRV system to be used for storing commercial DVD content. MIRV systems have a utility that permits customers to integrate a decryption utility This utility is primarily used by corporate customers who have proprietary encryption algorithms, but can also be used by the customer for integrating a decryption utility that works for commercial DVDs. Instructions for installation of decryption software are provided in the MIRV installation guide. Users are free to download DVD decryption utility software at such time as they feel the legal environment in their jurisdiction permits such activity. Nothing in this FAQ provided by Xperinet should be considered legal advice.

Here is the Axonix MediaMax FAQ
What about copyright laws? Is there information on how to obey copyright laws?
Yes there is information available on how to comply with copyright laws. Below are two links to articles concerning this subject. In general it is the responsibility of the user to obey all copyright and other related laws when using any computer including the MediaMax. It is recommended that you personally research and/or contact a legal expert on the issue concerning copyrights and other applicable laws before loading any media that may be copyrighted and/or protected media onto the MediaMax.

Axonix requires that you read and agree to the following disclaimer before the MediaMax allows the loading of any media on it:

“Before loading video, audio, images or other media onto the MediaMax it is necessary that you read and agree to the following disclaimer:

Axonix Corporation respects the copyrights of all media publishers and does not condone or induce the violation of copyrights through illegal copying, distribution or other illegal means. Use of this product ("MediaMax") and any software that is loaded onto the product or hardware that is attached to the product for any illegal purpose is strictly prohibited.

Axonix does not produce, sell, ship or induce the use of any means to load media onto its products including DVD CSS decrypting software or any other software that may violate copyright regulations.

The term "load media onto the MediaMax" may include but is not limited to the transfer of any digital or analog formatted video, audio, image or other form of media onto the MediaMax.

In particular but not limited to, it is agreed that you will not load any content onto the MediaMax that you do not rightfully own and possess whether that content be movies, music, photos or any other media. Loading any media including but not limited to rented, borrowed or loaned movies or any other media that you do not rightfully own and possess is strictly prohibited.

All other content license rules and regulations as defined by the copyright holder shall be adhered to including but not limited to the prohibition of any illegal distribution or copying of any content that has been loaded onto the MediaMax.

In no event, whether you agree to this disclaimer or not, shall Axonix Corporation be liable for any losses dues to illegal use of this product or any incidental, exemplary, special, or consequential damages regardless of whether Axonix Corporation was advised of the possibility of such damages.”

While MediaMax plays most SD and HD DVD movies with all of the menu related functions, MediaMax is limited to playing loaded Blu-ray movies without the disc’s menu, chapter skipping and other special features. In addition unlike SD and HD-DVD movies, Blu-ray movie cover art retrieval requires that the name of the movie be entered manually.

Notice – Blu-ray Limitations
It is important that you read and accept this disclaimer before ordering the MediaMax Blu-ray model.

While MediaMax supports most if not all features on most SD (Standard Definition) and HD DVD movies, there are several features currently not supported on Blu-ray movies including the following. Future enhancements are planned to addressed these limitations but will require a software modification on a Blu-ray MediaDeck model or MediaServer model shipped prior to the revision. A new revision is expected to be released November 2007.

MediaMax is currently only able to play a Blu-ray movie’s movie file without support for disc menu, chapter skipping and other special interactive features.
While it is possible to manually browse and play a Blu-ray disc from the MediaDecks disc drive it is not currently possible to automatically play the Blu-ray disc from on-screen prompt.
Blu-ray Movie Only files that are loaded onto the MediaMax may be played using the Axonix Movie Cover Art library.
Blu-ray discs must first be loaded to play and Blu-ray movie cover art retrieval requires that the name of the movie be entered manually.
If you have more questions about this topic we encourage you to research the subject thoroughly and/or contact a legal expert on the subject before purchasing or using the MediaMax.


So if this is what you know ahead of time, then all power to you. most folks do not.

Well it seems from reading what you posted that they are putting the onus on the end user (pretty slick) and we know for the most part that the end user will not get targeted. Please explain how the federal government would get a warrant to come into your home to check if you had made a copy of a HD DVD? They wouldn't...

and so by virtue of their disclaimer they are not doing anything illegal, the end user is. So we do not have to worry about them closing shop due to copying DVD content. Sort of like the guy buying the bong at Hemp shop.

Joey

in the grokster decision, the supreme court made a pretty significant distinction...

they said (and i badly paraphrase) that just becasue something CAN be used for illegal purposes (copyright protection breaking) does not mean that we can assume that it is illegal. but if it is made with the almost sole purpose of something illegal, then we can assume that the product is illegal.

Your Argument is the same one that grokster tried... we didnt do anything illegal, we told people not to do it, but they did it anyways. they are the bad persons...

If i make something thats sole purpose is to break copyright and the only way it works is via software from a company based in the West Indies so they are outside the reach of US law... the reality is that i am making something that could be a pretty cool target.

Now i will agree, US copyright law does not extend or apply in all markets. some areas mirror US law, but lets face it, these companies need to sell to the US market. and here is the real kicker.

If i work for a major studio and i am hashing out details for how MMC will work, the odds are good that i am a pretty paranoid guy. as such, if i am thinking about ratification and i look out and see that loads of people are already breaking the copyright, then guess what, i am not going to be anxious to ratify MMC. in fact, i am going to work to make what is out there even more draconian.

THese companies are the problem, and they are only making it worse. Before the mass market solution shows up, the Studios and such need to know that their trillions of dollars in content is safe... so all i can say is that it is not looking good. (not that either format looks to have much of a future)

At the risk of quoting Wikipedia...

"We hold that one who distributes a device with the object of promoting its use to infringe copyright, as shown by clear expression or other affirmative steps taken to foster infringement, is liable for the resulting acts of infringement by third parties."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM_Studios,_Inc._v._Grokster,_Ltd.

We hold that one who distributes a device with the object of promoting its use to infringe copyright, as shown by clear expression or other affirmative steps taken to foster infringement, is liable for the resulting acts of infringement by third parties."

Well I am not a lawyer, but if I ever get caught caught ripping HDDVDs onto a server I will quote this decision and tell them to go after ABC company:cool: ...and then we are back to square one....when will any end user get in trouble for burning HDDVDs for his home movie experience? Probably never and you would have a better chance of getting hit by lighting!!


JC

I do think you're right, Joey. So as long as you're OK with the risk of your hardware supplier getting shut down, I think you're safe.

truthfully, by the time I am ready to pounce on this technology it may become a moot point, and maybe K will have it's cake and eat it to...thanks for the info guys:)