Just checking to see if the Oppos sold through the PB shipped to anyone yet?

Spencer and Mdrew have not received their units yet and have had a difficult time getting information from Gary like shipping information and status.

Just want to see if this is a problem across the board or just with the 2 guys looking to supply the player for the NYC SDI/HDMI shootout.

THX

Dude??

Please don’t use my name like this again. I don’t think this is very cool.

I told you Gary said one or two weeks delivery time and made mention that I’m wondering if I wasted a grand on this SDI mod (player and VP card). But that was in regards to image quality.

I’m not worried about the delivery, or Gary’s ethics. Especially to the point where I want to publicly call him out on anything, nor do I want my name referred to in a post like this. Some things are best left said in PM, or not at all - and this is one of them.

If I have a problem with somone, I deal with that person - my way / my terms.

My post was written before you PM'ed me and what was contained in our PM was not reposted, only that you had not yet received your unit.

As far as using your name, I have received a dozen PM's inquiring to the status of the shootout and I felt it would be easier to post the question on the public forum rather than PM'ing the same response of "I have no idea" to 10 different people.

I never said anything in my post about Garys ethics nor did I ever call Gary out so, I really have no idea to what you are referring. And, if you want to quote private PM's, I told you I had no doubt that Gary would ship the player, it was just a question of when.

Sorry about that Mdrew, I had no idea you would be so offended by my post, it was not intended to come across the way you interpreted it and I still have no idea HOW you interpreted it in such a negative way.

I will not edit the original post but, leave it as it was written to see if anyone else finds it to be so revealing or questionable.

Besides the two members that said they would loan you their players....why do you care if anyone else has received theirs? What bearing does it have on your situation? Why should you be concerned enough to start a thread on the topic?

thanks for the thread which will be getting me some more hits :p

-Gary

Several reasons...

I wanted to know if the reason these 2 members didnt get their players was because they had publicly stated that they would lend their players for the SDI/HDMI shootout. If others had received their units and these 2 members had not, it would prove that Gary was intentionally delaying the players for the purpose of postponing the shootout.

If others didn't get their players it would also prove that Gary was NOT singling out these members and that there were delays all across the board to everyone.

Finally, the thread was posted to inquire as to the status of other members because perhaps if someone else had received theirs that they would facilitate the shootout by offering their player for the demo. Basically, looking for someone other than the 2 already mentioned to volunteer their player NOW if they have one rather than wait for the other members to get theirs.

Specific enough?

Gary: You dont need anymore hits remember? Your all sold out and the supply cannot even fill the demand..thats also why you couldnt accept a return for the unit if it failed in the shootout. Geeze.

I know that if anyone who has ordered these players would like an update, Gary would be happy to provide one. I received an update today on a date of shipment.

Again, I have PM's that indicate otherwise but, you have succeeded in responding to my question...you havent got yours either so it appears to be across the board delays in shipping. THX Rboster.

Mystery Solved....good job Scooby.

Please folks ... let's exercise some caution else we'll have yet another thread shut down! :o

Sorry about that Mdrew, I had no idea you would be so offended by my post, it was not intended to come across the way you interpreted it and I still have no idea HOW you interpreted it in such a negative way.


Well seeing how you asked, it was this part………



Spencer and Mdrew have not received their units yet and have had a difficult time getting information from Gary like shipping information and status.



"Difficult time getting information from Gary", to be specific. That wasn’t my exact words, and when you put it out like you did publicly, it leads to assumptions. Assumptions are rarely taken in a positive light.

It just didn’t sit right with me when I read it. Taking that into consideration, I suspect others would take that way as well. These forums are difficult to express feelings and emotion, seeing how we can not see body or facial expressions, or all the other benefits associated with face to face conversations.

– and considering that, and the fact that the mod here already thinks unfavorably towards my choice of words, I don’t want my name associated with controversial discussions. Nothing personal toward you Beever.

Please folks ... let's exercise some caution else we'll have yet another thread shut down! :o

This thread's sole purpose is to publicly question Gary's honesty and integrity. Should a thread like this be allowed? I don't know. I've sent a report post message to the moderators to have them review it.

This thread's sole purpose lies in its title and to find out what the status is with shipments of the AVS powerbuy SDI modded Oppo players. Thats' it.

If he shipped them or not, his honesty is NOT in question, his shipping timeframe is all that is being questioned.

You guys just love to start trouble for the sake of getting threads locked down.

guys.

I really don't like to close down threads, but someone seems adament to make this forum "flame on".

Lets leave the hard rhetoric to politicians and leave this forum icy fresh.

This thread's sole purpose is to publicly question Gary's honesty and integrity. Should a thread like this be allowed? I don't know. I've sent a report post message to the moderators to have them review it.

Ron I agree, I am fine with Ofer leaving it up, it will look all the more better when people are proven wrong ;)

the point here that strikes me is that I offered Beever a chance to buy the player very early on in the powerbuy and was going to send it to him very early on, unfairly so and way before everyone else so the shooutout could get done before the PB was over, he insisted on childish terms like returning a custom item so it didn't go anywhere, then he moved over to trashing because I wouldn't ship directly to him upon receiving MIKE DREW'S PAYMENT AND NOT HIS OWN, Mike even offered this, but I am sorry, I ship to customers only, usually business works that way :rolleyes: I would prefer to not piss 600$ in the wind to a forum newbie who I have no idea who they are or anything about them, calling him a forum newbie is NOT a insult, it simply means I don't KNOW him, like Ron and others who I have seen on here for years

whatever beever is saying I couldn't care less because he is on my ignore list, I told him to contact JVB and stiff arm them into his terms ;)

-Gary

I've received mine a few weeks ago and I'm very happy with it and how the process went!

No, I will not compare SDI/HDMI and dragged into discussions about it.
The last (closed) thread was ridiculous enough.



Ron I agree, I am fine with Ofer leaving it up, it will look all the more better when people are proven wrong ;)

the point here that strikes me is that I offered Beever a chance to buy the player very early on in the powerbuy and was going to send it to him very early on, unfairly so and way before everyone else so the shooutout could get done before the PB was over, he insisted on childish terms like returning a custom item so it didn't go anywhere, then he moved over to trashing because I wouldn't ship directly to him upon receiving MIKE DREW'S PAYMENT AND NOT HIS OWN, Mike even offered this, but I am sorry, I ship to customers only, usually business works that way :rolleyes: I would prefer to not piss 600$ in the wind to a forum newbie who I have no idea who they are or anything about them, calling him a forum newbie is NOT a insult, it simply means I don't KNOW him, like Ron and others who I have seen on here for years

whatever beever is saying I couldn't care less because he is on my ignore list, I told him to contact JVB and stiff arm them into his terms ;)

-Gary

Thanks Roland, appreciate the feedback

for anyone interested, Roland had actually bought one from me directly a day or 2 before the PB started

-Gary

Yeah, I was in a kind of a hurry and couln't wait for the PB. :)
He was also so nice to throw in a free express shipping to me because of that.

Thanks Roland, appreciate the feedback

for anyone interested, Roland had actually bought one from me directly a day or 2 before the PB started

-Gary

Roland, how do you like your unit?

Anyone else want to chime in that's received theirs from the power buy? Anxious to hear feedback on this unit, as I wait for mine to arrive.

Ron

very much. Can't say anything bad about it so far.



Roland, how do you like your unit?

Anyone else want to chime in that's received theirs from the power buy? Anxious to hear feedback on this unit, as I wait for mine to arrive.

Ron

I've been away for a bit (shame on me!) ... any updates on the shootout?

I haven't been on the forum in a bit. I'd like to confirm that I did receive my modded Oppo a couple weeks ago. As far as the shootout goes, Beever has been pretty busy, so we haven't had time yet to schedule the shootout.

-spencer

Hey Gary. How are you? Welcome to the business world. :)

I am doing great Mark, thanks

it's all fun for me ;) well mostly :p

those that haven't received their Oppo yet, the last 4 buyers on the PB, you should have them anyday now, I had supply issues from Pixel Magic which delayed things :mad:

thanks for your patience

-Gary

Gary,

Can you do the power cord mod without the SDI mod?

Gary,

Did you get any DVDO SDI cards in yet?? My 981 is still in the box anxiously waiting for some attention. No card, no worky.....

you are taken care of Mike, you should be rockin in a few days, around monday or tuesday

guys please PM me and I will answer as best possible about Oppo stuff

thanks

-Gary

Great... thanks Gary.

BTW...I did send you a PM about a week ago (after the one on the 1st). You didn't reply...but - I think something squirly might be going on with my PM's. I do not show that I sent it to you in my sent folder, along with a couple other PM's I sent to other folks.

I hope that card comes with instructions. :)

Mike, you are correct, no PM from you, I have had the same issues before and I set myself to thinking of replies as only sent if they show up in the sent folder

thanks, let me know if you have any trouble installing the SDI board, forget all the firmware and enclosed instructions for the HD/HD+, simply open, install and close, when you turn the unit back on, your SDI input will be there

-Gary

I'm still using TAW Digilink II (http://www.taw.biz/DIGILINK%20II%20DVD.htm) SDI players, which I believe are built around a Denon transport. Have you ever used or seen one in action? Just wondering how they stack up to these Oppo 981's you're now doing. :)

To close the loop on this (well sorta), I received the SDI card from Gary today and installed it.

I can’t get an input signal to the VP-50 though. I pulled the cover back off the VP to make sure my connections were good and noticed there were two lights lit on the SDI card, so I’m thinking it’s working OK.

Am I missing something on the set up of the 981 or VP?? The VP’s menu has an SDI input that I can select, so I believe its firmware is good to go.

HDMI output works fine.

Those of you who’ve already got their 981’s working have any idea what I need to do?

Never mind!! Gary PM'd me back quicker than I thought he would and all I needed to do was power off the 981 a couple times.

.....sorry.

Enjoy Mike ;)

make sure you set up the input and such, specifically Line Offset (vertical centering) which needs to be set separately for a PAL and NTSC signal on the SDI input

-Gary

I was just going to shoot you another PM about that offset thing. Took me an hour messing with the VP to figure out how to move the picture up.

thanks....it's working like a champ now. I have both the 981 and the 970 into the VP, toggling back and forth on the same DVD trying to see what differences there may be. - this could take a while.

I have both the 981 and the 970 into the VP, toggling back and forth on the same DVD trying to see what differences there may be. - this could take a while.
Eagerly looking forward to your comparisons, Mike! :)
Do you find that the calibrated contrast/brightness/saturation/hue settings are very different between the two?

Eagerly looking forward to your comparisons, Mike! :)
Do you find that the calibrated contrast/brightness/saturation/hue settings are very different between the two?
I’m almost afraid to say anything in regards to which one is better, or even different. I’m not a pro, I have no idea what I need to be specifically looking at, and I have no intention of becoming a test pattern watcher. I just pop in a movie, mix a cocktail and enjoy the movie. Form some of the abuse folks get around here for not doing some sort of quantifiable comparisons using test equipment, meters and spread sheets, I hesitate to say anything.

But seeing how asked……

To satisfy my own curiosity, and hopefully justify the cost of this SDI mod, I spent about an hour doing my best to see what (if) there was a difference between the two players. I set up different profiles on the VP-50 for the players, seeing how they have different color spaces and the SDI player image needed to be centered in the screen. Other than that, the playing field is level. All player video settings are the same (off or zero).

My projector is not professionally calibrated, and I’m currently using some settings that have been posted on AVS for my particular projector (Panasonic 1000U). I popping in Avia and did my best with that disk to adjust brightness, contrast, saturation, sharpness, hue and tint with both players and made changes to the projector, not the VP or the players. I did not find that I needed to tweak the projector or VP differently for the two players. My screen is a 96” X 41", 2.35/1 Stewart Firehawk G3. I use a Prismasonic 1400/HE lens.

I happened to have two disks of X-men #2, so put one in each player. Both players work just fine using the same remote, so stopped the auto play and then re-started both players at once. I then sat down with the remote and toggled back and forth between both machines for a while. There is some lag when doing this, so I could not see the exact scene at the exact moment when doing this. To keep things as fair as I could manage, I would watch a scene and then toggle to the other player. I’d continue watching, then I’d hit reverse for a while and re-watch the same scene. Obviously, this is not very scientific or controlled – just the best I can do.

So, did I notice a marked difference? If I did, it is so slight I can’t tell what difference that is. This is not to say that the SDI modified unit does a better job or not, but only that I can not see a difference under a casual movie watching viewing mode. I should have put that SDI money into a new amp or lens for my camera. I have no regrets though.....it was a learning exersise and I can use the 970 for one of the other rooms that does not have an HDMI TV.

appreciate the feedback Mike :)

-Gary

As expected but, while not a scientific comparison it does a fine job of explaining your thoughts.

While I doubt you would see anything different, why not try and see if any of the test patterns or color patterns on the Avia disc look any different from the HDMi player or SDi player?

That will get into more detail then just movie watching but, dont be concerned if you cant see any difference, that is to be expected and not a problem with your PJ or eyes.

Please report back if you can.

...
So, did I notice a marked difference? If I did, it is so slight I can’t tell what difference that is. This is not to say that the SDI modified unit does a better job or not, but only that I can not see a difference under a casual movie watching viewing mode. I should have put that SDI money into a new amp or lens for my camera. I have no regrets though.....it was a learning exersise and I can use the 970 for one of the other rooms that does not have an HDMI TV.

Thanks for sharing your personal findings, Mike. Your observations appear to be in line with my own - I too had not done anything "scientific" but just flipped back and forth between identical scenes/passages using my 970 480i/hdmi and Kenwood modded SDI player on my 120" HP screen (using a Panny AE900u then). My conclusions then were similar to yours as I reported some time ago (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10375556#post10375556). I had then concluded that hdmi had indeed caught up and sold my entire SDI setup and moved to hdmi at a significant saving.

However based on the various posts made recently (including screenshots) I was expecting that the more expensive Oppo 981 with the superior decoder (compared to my Kenwood Sovereign DV-5700 and before that the Panasonic RP62) would've shown the purpoted superiority of the SDI transport - this may have induced me to reconsider SDI. I am still open and if the shootout happens, it would still be fun to see what people think.

Incidently, as I mentioned in my earlier post, I still have my 4 feet BlueJeansCable BNC-BNC Belden 1394A cable if anyone wants to buy it ... :)

No need to be so apologetic mdrew! That is one great post! Balanced and relevant to the many like you (myself included) who are interested in picture quality and not in viewing test images from a few inches away.

Thank you!

As expected but, while not a scientific comparison it does a fine job of explaining your thoughts.

While I doubt you would see anything different, why not try and see if any of the test patterns or color patterns on the Avia disc look any different from the HDMi player or SDi player?

That will get into more detail then just movie watching but, dont be concerned if you cant see any difference, that is to be expected and not a problem with your PJ or eyes.

Please report back if you can.

Any updates folks? Am I the only one still not sure if SDI is indeed visibly superior to 480i HDMI or not? Should I conclude from the silence that everyone agrees that it is indeed visibly better (as evidenced by Gary's analysis earlier) and those of us (like me) who are sitting on the fence should clamour to get SDI mods on our players? :confused: :confused:

I still have not pulled my 970 off my EQ rack. Every once in a while I plug it back in and pop a DVD in that I think looks exceptionally good on the 981. Unfortunately, these DVD’s look exceptionally good on the 970 too.

I had considering pulling up some test patterns and doing some sort of controlled back to back testing, but have resisted that temptation. For what this SDI mod costs when considering the SDI card for the VP-50, shipping, cost of donor player and the mod, I would hope to see a difference with casual movie watching. I simply do not see that, and for that reason I do not want to justify the expense with test pattern comparison watching. Who in the heck goes through all this effort and expense of building an HT to enjoy an evening watching test patterns?? I sure didn’t…..

So based on my experience with this little science project, (if you are asking for my opinion)……. My opinion is to find somewhere else to spend your money if you have a few hundred bucks just burning a whole in your pocket. I think there are numerous other areas where you could spend that money and get much more enjoyment out of that purchase….even if it’s a new recliner or case of Cakebread’s 03 cab / sav.

Heck, I’m seriously contemplating selling my VP-50 along with this SDI player and putting that money toward a new pre / pro and amp combo. I think today’s display devises and HD / BR DVD players are doing such a good job that these stand alone VP’s and modified DVD players just aren’t worth the money. Two years ago, sure… today.. I’m not so sure anymore.

I think today’s display devises and HD / BR DVD players are doing such a good job that these stand alone VP’s and modified DVD players just aren’t worth the money. Two years ago, sure… today.. I’m not so sure anymore.

oh yes they are ;) and HD-SDI is getting ready to hit big at anytime and it will be huge

external scalers are the key to a high-end video system and always will be IMHO

Mike, I agree we all don't watch test patterns all day obviously, but if test patterns look better on one player versus another then so does the actual video we view, it translates

the differences between these 2 units HDMI vs SDI during test patterns was shown in my screenshots, it is there for those wanting that last extra 1% from their video, this is not for everyone though, mainly due to pricing involved

I am a video freak more than audio and will spend whatever it takes on my personal system to get a .5% increase in PQ, I know this isn't many people and I often forget this when selling mods and etc., I do find that most people purchasing something like this from me are in that obsessed category though

thanks for your thoughts and opinions Mike, appreciate it very much

-Gary

Gary
The advantage of SDI over HDMI for upconverting SD material (480i) makes sense but could you explain why you explain why you believe HDSDI will be better than HDMI for 1080i/p material?

While I believe you have already seen the post, please see Glimmie's comments:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11215909&&#post11215909

Heck, I’m seriously contemplating selling my VP-50 along with this SDI player and putting that money toward a new pre / pro and amp combo. I think today’s display devises and HD / BR DVD players are doing such a good job that these stand alone VP’s and modified DVD players just aren’t worth the money. Two years ago, sure… today.. I’m not so sure anymore.

May be a bit premature IMO. I think that pre-pros are coming up the curve but don't think that they are quite there yet ... and for that reason I'm holding on to my VP50. In addition, the folks at places like DVDO will keep on improving the software etc. for some time in an attempt to stay ahead.

I'm not sure that I would go as far as to say that external VPs will always make sense. Technology growth and obsolescence are seen all around. I suspect that its only a matter of time for these features/products to come down from the stratosphere to the more common place "consumer grade" components.

I had considering pulling up some test patterns and doing some sort of controlled back to back testing, but have resisted that temptation.
How long will you do that? Resistance is indeed futile ;)

the differences between these 2 units HDMI vs SDI during test patterns was shown in my screenshots, it is there for those wanting that last extra 1% from their video, this is not for everyone though, mainly due to pricing involved.
True. But the question that one needs to ask is if that 1% is really there, or is it driven by a psychological component - wanting to justify the expenditure? In any event, I suppose that I could interpret the 1% and 0.5% numbers you use to say the following:
The SDI transport will give you the absolute best possible picture from 480i standard definition sources. Using HDMI as a transport for 480i will only get you 99% or 99.5% of the way there but it will cost you just a fraction of what the SDI solution will cost.
Would this be a reasonable interpretation? Personally I think that we are 100% there - I didn't want to come through confronting anyone hence refrained in my earlier posts, but I did check a few avia patterns before I sold my SDI setup. To my eyes, from my seating position and with my setup I saw no discernible differences. Since it was not "scientific" and I had no screenshots to back this up, I'd stayed away from confrontations. After all Gary, as you well know from my PMs to you, I had been having trouble with the stability of my SDI signal and I realized that the SDI signal that I was getting may not have been as good as the one you used for your comparisons. This may well have been the reason for my SDI to be no different from the 480i hdmi coming out of the Oppo 970HD. Bottom line : in my setup I saw no differences - nada, zippo!

The advantage of SDI over HDMI for upconverting SD material (480i) makes sense but could you explain why you explain why you believe HDSDI will be better than HDMI for 1080i/p material?
Possibly for the same reason as with standard definition? Longer cable lengths? This could definitely be a factor for professional theater setups or for larger HT setups where cable lengths significantly exceed the 50 feet or less that most of us mere mortals need. I know that some folks have hinted that the introduction of HDCP somehow "corrupts" the digital video content, but I have yet to see a scientific explanation that clarifies this for me to the point where I accept it as plausible.

Gary
The advantage of SDI over HDMI for upconverting SD material (480i) makes sense but could you explain why you explain why you believe HDSDI will be better than HDMI for 1080i/p material?

While I believe you have already seen the post, please see Glimmie's comments:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11215909&&#post11215909

same case as SD DVD and the Oppo 970 via HDMI vs 981 via SDI example applies, same decoder, same 480i output but different quality, why?

HDMI has HDCP inserted, also most devices (like the Sony S1 and Oppo 970 via HDMI) output 4:4:4 colorspace instead of 4:2:2, DVD, HD, and BD are 4:2:2, so there is another conversion there somewhere

for example with a HD-SDI mod on my Sony S1 you would have a pure untouched 1080p/24 4:2:2 output that is free from HDCP and any conversions or etc., meaning no possible colorspace problems and full analog output capability from your scaler and finally a all around cleaner purer image

HDMI does not equal SDI just because it is digital, we have been over this many times on many forums and many examples have been provided from players such as the Oppos, Arcams and Pioneer Elites

-Gary

HDMI does not equal SDI just because it is digital, we have been over this many times on many forums and many examples have been provided from players such as the Oppos, Arcams and Pioneer Elites

-Gary
Surely Gary you recognize that most of those early discussions were comparing 480p via HDMI vs. 480i via SDI. I don't think that we've seen many discussions specifically focussing on comparing 480i via both transports that concluded that one was visibly superior. Have we? Just saying that it is so and that there have been many discussions does not really make it so, does it? ;)

With the VP50's ability to extract 480i from 480p, I'd venture that even 480p via HDMI (through the VP50 - and this is a recent feature on the VP50 AFTER all those other discussions about 480p hdmi and sdi) will look pretty damn close to SDI ... but there have been no *independent* and *scientific* tests of that. So we CANNOT invoke old threads to argue against this conjecture ... please don't even try!

HDMI has HDCP inserted, also most devices (like the Sony S1 and Oppo 970 via HDMI) output 4:4:4 colorspace instead of 4:2:2, DVD, HD, and BD are 4:2:2, so there is another conversion there somewhere
Could you explain in detail (or provide a scientific link that does so) as to why the insertion of HDCP causes any degradation of the quality of the digital video content? Or is this just a conjecture? I am still confused with this point.
Also with regards to that colorspace conversion "somewhere" ... why does that necessarily translate to a meaningful signal degradation?

In my layman terms I view it as following: This is the digital domain so even if the correct value is 1.0, any "corruption" between 0.99 and 1.01 will still get rounded to 1.0 will it not? Somehow this seems like searching for infinite accuracy in a calculation when only a discrete set of results are stored. How does it matter if the inaccuracies are well below the threshold of resolution in the storage?

Can someone explain please?

Gary,
Have you had a chance to look at the new Oppo 980?
Just brief testing so far, but I cannot tell the difference between the 980 and my RP82 SDI.
For the record, I preferred the RP82 over the 970 when I had it.
Oh, and the 980 does output 4:2:2

Gary,
Have you had a chance to look at the new Oppo 980?
Just brief testing so far, but I cannot tell the difference between the 980 and my RP82 SDI.
For the record, I preferred the RP82 over the 970 when I had it.
Oh, and the 980 does output 4:2:2

Nice! First I'm hearing of the 980! I went and read all 14 pages of the thread dedicated to it!!

What makes you prefer this player to the 970? (revealed preference : {RP82=980}>970)
From the larger thread it seems that the main diffs are in PAL playback (and 7.1 audio vs 5.1 audio), USB 2.0, etc. ... but what is your experience about 480i via the two units? :)

The 980 also has SACD / DSD over HDMI. For SACD lovers, this should be quite a treat.

Nice! First I'm hearing of the 980! I went and read all 14 pages of the thread dedicated to it!!

What makes you prefer this player to the 970? (revealed preference : {RP82=980}>970)
From the larger thread it seems that the main diffs are in PAL playback (and 7.1 audio vs 5.1 audio), USB 2.0, etc. ... but what is your experience about 480i via the two units? :)

I'm not sure what it was with the 970. Maybe I had some setting wrong. Maybe it was the colorspace issue that Gary mentioned. I know many people are quite pleased with the 970/VP combo. It seems that Oppo has tweaked things some more with the 980.

The PAL playback problems with the 970/980 are not an issue when using a VP. I think it was mainly in comparison with the 971/981 as standalone players.

For me personally, I am spending most of the time with high def these days. I don't see much reason to go SDI versus the 980/scaler combo. The differences, if any, are getting smaller. Anyone in Northern California want to have a shootout?

I am still open to considering HD SDI.

I'm not sure what it was with the 970. Maybe I had some setting wrong. Maybe it was the colorspace issue that Gary mentioned. I know many people are quite pleased with the 970/VP combo. It seems that Oppo has tweaked things some more with the 980.

The PAL playback problems with the 970/980 are not an issue when using a VP. I think it was mainly in comparison with the 971/981 as standalone players.

For me personally, I am spending most of the time with high def these days. I don't see much reason to go SDI versus the 980/scaler combo. The differences, if any, are getting smaller. Anyone in Northern California want to have a shootout?

I am still open to considering HD SDI.

Based on what I heard from you I decided to do some new testing this afternoon. In addition to the Oppo 970HD feeding 480i via HDMI to the VP50, I also have a Toshiba HD-A2 player that is capable of sending 480i via HDMI. This was in part the reason I chose it that player over the XA2 (which cannot do 480i), but I never tested this feature ... till today. I'd been using the Toshiba solely for HD-DVD.
So here is my setup:


Oppo 970HD feeding 480i via HDMI to the VP50. Colorspace is RGB (which is 4:4:4 I believe).
Toshiba HD-A2. Set to feed 480i via HDMI to the VP50. Colorspace is 4:2:2
DVDO VP50 outputs 1080p/60 via HDMI to my JVC RS1. Colorspace is 4:4:4.
Projecting onto a 120" DaLite HP screen


First I went with some scenes from DVDs (Star Trek Nemesis and LOTR). I verified that the Toshiba registered as 4:2:2 on the VP50. Both players produced excellent images, though I could not dismiss a subliminal feeling that the Toshiba was "crisper".

So I pulled out the AVIA dvd and went about checking a few patterns. In particular I checked

Resolution 100TVL
Sharpness
Split Color Bars


The Resolution and Color Bars were very similar between the two players ... but surprisingly the Sharpness pattern had some ringing via the Oppo. This was very much like what Gary had reported. In addition the text on the AVIA menus appeared a bit more "jagged" when viewed via the Oppo than those when viewed via the Toshiba.

I went back and forth via the Toshiba and the Oppo. The Resolution patterns were very similar but the Sharpness pattern definitely was cleaner on the Toshiba. Odd ...

Sankar, glad you could replicate what I noticed, one thing I have to add is that the Oppo 970 set to RGB HDMI output is trashed worse than anything else, make sure it is set to YPbPr output over RGB, you can do it in the setup menus

I have never looked at a 480i DVD output from the Toshiba's, glad to hear they are 4:2:2

-Gary

Sankar, glad you could replicate what I noticed, one thing I have to add is that the Oppo 970 set to RGB HDMI output is trashed worse than anything else, make sure it is set to YPbPr output over RGB, you can do it in the setup menus

I have never looked at a 480i DVD output from the Toshiba's, glad to hear they are 4:2:2

-Gary


Hmm - I never messed with the colorspace settings on the 970. Maybe that's why I was never too pleased with it.

So the new Oppo 980 - tweaked MediaTek chip, now with 4:2:2 output - gonna give SDI a good run for the money.

Sankar, glad you could replicate what I noticed, one thing I have to add is that the Oppo 970 set to RGB HDMI output is trashed worse than anything else, make sure it is set to YPbPr output over RGB, you can do it in the setup menus

I have never looked at a 480i DVD output from the Toshiba's, glad to hear they are 4:2:2

-Gary
I wouldn't quite say "trashed" since the effect seems to only show up in the Sharpness pattern ... normal moving images seem perfectly fine as did the Resolution pattern.

The Toshiba 480i HDMI is very rock solid though - there is absolutely no ringing. One thing I never checked is to switch the colorspace on the Toshiba to 4:4:4 and try the same pattern - will do that at the next opportunity.

I wouldn't quite say "trashed" since the effect seems to only show up in the Sharpness pattern ... normal moving images seem perfectly fine as did the Resolution pattern.

The Toshiba 480i HDMI is very rock solid though - there is absolutely no ringing. One thing I never checked is to switch the colorspace on the Toshiba to 4:4:4 and try the same pattern - will do that at the next opportunity.

if it's on the patterns its on the real world video playback ;) in the case of the 970 via HDMI it's hard to pick out but still there :(

-Gary

True, but surprisingly I could not see the ringing on the Resolution pattern or with the split color bars ... it seemed to only manifest itself in the Sharpness pattern. I'm not sure if this was chance or real, but that may explain why normal images look fine. For those who are wondering, normal movie images look perfectly comparable. Even after I saw the ringing in the Sharpness pattern, I checked out a couple of scenes and could not make out any tangible differences. It could also be that I was in a hurry yesterday and was not that careful in my experimentation.

At this point I'm also not sure if the issue is due to something in the Oppo, the colorspace choice OR the VP50 (doubt it). I think that I need to check out the following combinations more carefully:
Resolution, Sharpness and color bar patterns
Oppo RGB and YPbPr (but all at 4:4:4)
Toshiba at 4:2:2 and 4:4:4
VP50 de-interlacing at "Auto", "Forced 3:2", etc.

I ran some of these tests the other day and took photographs (but have not had time to download them from the camera - too crazy at work with this meltdown in financial markets!).

To recap: I am testing 480i via HDMI from the Oppo DV-970HD vs 480i via HDMI from the Toshiba HD-A2. The colorspace from the Oppo is 4:4:4 while that from the Toshiba is 4:2:2. Both feed into the VP50 and the output from the VP50 is via 1080p/60Hz HDMI (4:4:4) to the JVC-RS1.

A few things became clear.

The Sharpness pattern from the Oppo 970HD definitely shows ringing (in the vertical lines but not in the horizontal ones) but that from the Toshiba HD-A2 is clean as a whistle. However, the effect of this ringing it is not seen in all test patterns. For example the Split Color bars and Resolution 100 TVL patterns were pretty clean on the Oppo.
It is NOT the deinterlacing method in the VP50 that contributes to this ... I tried changing every possible setting within the VP50 and nothing improved the ringing from the Oppo NOR introduced it from the Toshiba.
Regular moving images look very very similar even when I was aware of the ringing in the test pattern. So this would not detract from the movie experience. However some still screens such as the AVIA menu looked cleaner on the Toshiba. I'm unable to pin it down, but the lettering seemed crisper.


I was unable to set the Toshiba to output 4:4:4 to see if it's the colorspace conversion that is causing this ringing. I could not find any way to set that in the Toshiba - it just defaults to 4:2:2.

I would be useful if someone with the Oppo 980 can try the two different colorspaces. At this juncture I feel that this is what is contributing to the differences - which though "minor", do exist. If it's not the colorspace, then it's something that the 970 is introducing - I don't think that it's a "HDMI issue", but rather an "Oppo" issue. Just my 2 cents

I would be useful if someone with the Oppo 980 can try the two different colorspaces. At this juncture I feel that this is what is contributing to the differences - which though "minor", do exist. If it's not the colorspace, then it's something that the 970 is introducing - I don't think that it's a "HDMI issue", but rather an "Oppo" issue. Just my 2 cents

I'll give it a try this weekend. Actually there are 3 colorspaces (RGB also). Will compare it to the RP82 SDI as well.

I'll give it a try this weekend. Actually there are 3 colorspaces (RGB also). Will compare it to the RP82 SDI as well.
Hi! Did you get a chance to play with these? Eagerly awaiting your observations :)

Hi! Did you get a chance to play with these? Eagerly awaiting your observations :)

I tried - mainly looking at the AVIA sharpness pattern. I could not tell a difference between the RP82 or 980 on any of the colorspace settings. I took some screenshots, but could not tell looking at these either.

I did compare the 980 on the Radiance vs VP50. I do see a difference there, but I cannot get into the specifics obviously.

I'm not quite ready to definitively say that there is no difference yet. If you give me a specific scene from a movie (say one of the Star Wars movies) or a specific portion of a test pattern to look at, I will try again with screenshots.

I tried - mainly looking at the AVIA sharpness pattern. I could not tell a difference between the RP82 or 980 on any of the colorspace settings. I took some screenshots, but could not tell looking at these either.

I did compare the 980 on the Radiance vs VP50. I do see a difference there, but I cannot get into the specifics obviously.

I'm not quite ready to definitively say that there is no difference yet. If you give me a specific scene from a movie (say one of the Star Wars movies) or a specific portion of a test pattern to look at, I will try again with screenshots.

Thanks! This is very interesting and suggests that the choice of the colorspace may not matter that much after all. However, given that I definitely saw a difference between the Oppo 970HD and Toshiba A2, this leads me to suspect that the Oppo 970HD may be at fault here - and may also explain why Gary noticed a difference.

Your comparison of the RP82 SDI vs the 980 hdmi also lend support to the contention that the transport is less critical and 480i via SDi and HDMI are quite similar.

I wish I still had the 970 to compare. There was definitely something wrong there. Oppo definitely corrected some of the 970 problems in the 980. I am still going to try to see if I can find any differences with the 980 at various settings and the RP82. I'll gather some more screenshots, along with the Radiance comparisons, and post them when the NDA expires.

Based on what I heard from you I decided to do some new testing this afternoon. In addition to the Oppo 970HD feeding 480i via HDMI to the VP50, I also have a Toshiba HD-A2 player that is capable of sending 480i via HDMI. This was in part the reason I chose it that player over the XA2 (which cannot do 480i), but I never tested this feature ... till today. I'd been using the Toshiba solely for HD-DVD.
So here is my setup:


Oppo 970HD feeding 480i via HDMI to the VP50. Colorspace is RGB (which is 4:4:4 I believe).
Toshiba HD-A2. Set to feed 480i via HDMI to the VP50. Colorspace is 4:2:2
DVDO VP50 outputs 1080p/60 via HDMI to my JVC RS1. Colorspace is 4:4:4.
Projecting onto a 120" DaLite HP screen


First I went with some scenes from DVDs (Star Trek Nemesis and LOTR). I verified that the Toshiba registered as 4:2:2 on the VP50. Both players produced excellent images, though I could not dismiss a subliminal feeling that the Toshiba was "crisper".

So I pulled out the AVIA dvd and went about checking a few patterns. In particular I checked

Resolution 100TVL
Sharpness
Split Color Bars


The Resolution and Color Bars were very similar between the two players ... but surprisingly the Sharpness pattern had some ringing via the Oppo. This was very much like what Gary had reported. In addition the text on the AVIA menus appeared a bit more "jagged" when viewed via the Oppo than those when viewed via the Toshiba.

I went back and forth via the Toshiba and the Oppo. The Resolution patterns were very similar but the Sharpness pattern definitely was cleaner on the Toshiba. Odd ...

this is very interested but i, unfortunately do not have the AVIA disk.
i do, however, have the DVE and HQV disks.
is there an equivalent pattern that would show the ringing that gary and sankar are seeing?

OK, here are the screenshots I took a few weeks ago - my first attempt at screenshots. This is from the RS1 projecting on a 110" Pearlescent screen. They are close-up pictures of the sharpness pattern on Avia. You can see the mild mis-convergence close up.

The first will be the RP82 SDI / VP50. The next 3 are the Oppo 980 / VP50 at the 3 colorspace settings. The last picture is the Oppo 980 / Radiance.

RP82 SDI / VP50
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/8306/rp82sdirs9.jpg

Oppo 980 RGB / VP50
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/8448/oppo980rgbia7.jpg

Oppo 980 4:4:4 / VP50
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/4186/oppo980444my1.jpg

Oppo 980 4:2:2 / VP50
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/5016/oppo980422sd8.jpg

Oppo 980 4:2:2 / Radiance
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/9356/oppo980radianceqc8.jpg

I could not tell any difference on test patterns or real world viewing between the RP82 SDI and the Oppo 980 on any of the colorspace settings - all via VP50. I think you can see the improvement on the Radiance. I am curious as to how the VP50Pro will stack up.

Thanks a bunch cal87!

The differences between the Radiance and VP50 are amazing ... would never have attributed the ringing to the VP50!

Thanks Cal for the screen shots. I think ppl in the Radiance thread would love to see them...

I am very excited about getting my beta unit (to bad it's at the end of the Sept :( )

the VP50 should not be looking like that at all (ringing) ;)

something is up and I mean bad :(

-Gary

Maan... that VP50 adds serious RINGING!

Edit: Gary, I looked at your posted pictures with the VP50 and it also shows ringing!

the vp50 should not have ringing like that, trust me

the avia pattern that comes from has slight ringing as is, native to the encode or pattern or whatever

believe me though, EE and ringing is just about my #1 biggest concern for video and if the VP50 was like that I couldn't have used it ;)

-Gary

Thanks a bunch cal87!

The differences between the Radiance and VP50 are amazing ... would never have attributed the ringing to the VP50!
I wonder if this ringing is the "infamous" ringing that people attribute to the VPXX scaling algos? What output resolution were you using Cal87?. I take it that the RS1 was at a constant res for all of these tests and was 1:1 pixel mapped? If all is as you've shown it, and there is nothing wrong with the VP50 or your test methodology, the results are indeed amazing :eek:. And yes, if you're really sure that your tests/results are beyond reproach, I would copy your post to the Lumagen Radiance XD thread.

And yes again, I would also be very interested to see the results of this test on the new VP50 Pro.

I wonder if this ringing is the "infamous" ringing that people attribute to the VPXX scaling algos? What output resolution were you using Cal87?. I take it that the RS1 was at a constant res for all of these tests and was 1:1 pixel mapped? If all is as you've shown it, and there is nothing wrong with the VP50 or your test methodology, the results are indeed amazing :eek:. And yes, if you're really sure that your tests/results are beyond reproach, I would copy your post to the Lumagen Radiance XD thread.

Both processors were outputting 1080P60. The VP50 had sharpness at -1, everything else set at 0 for both processors. The purpose of this experiment was to check on some colorspace issues with the Oppo. The hypothesis was that the Oppo 970 may have some issues which could have been corrected in the 980. It was not really meant to be a comparison between processors. It is a single test pattern on a test disc, so take it FWIW. I no longer have the VP50 to try other comparisons.

...
The purpose of this experiment was to check on some colorspace issues with the Oppo. The hypothesis was that the Oppo 970 may have some issues which could have been corrected in the 980.
...

Thanks for checking this out - a very relevant comparison imo since colorspace issues have been put forth as a justification to choose the SDI transport for 480i over HDMI. This now brings forth two questions which I recognize you have been diplomatic to keep at arms length ... but I will take my shots at them ...


Would it be appropriate to conclude from your analysis that when a colorspace conversion is properly done in the player, the differences could be below the visible threshold?
Is this another nail (the others being cost related) in the SD-SDI coffin for consumer related setups?


I realize that given the history of these debates these are rather loaded and will raise emotional responses among some, but my answers to both questions seem to be "Yes".

I had made my decision to switch to the Radiance before I had any knowledge of a VP50Pro or Oppo 980. I had found from my previous experience that the RP82 SDI was clearly better than the Oppo 970. By going to the Radiance without a built in SDI input, I had to decide what to do with my SDI player. I could not see spending $400 or so on a SDI to HDMI converter. I was going to go back to the Oppo 970, knowing that I would be downgrading. Over the past year, my interest has clearly swayed towards the HD DVD/Blu-Ray side vs SD. These days, I have been more interested in a mediocre-movie-that-I've-never-seen-in-high-def versus a movie-that-I-really-like-but-only-available-in-SD. The Oppo 980 coming on the scene was a pleasant surprise, and it seems that I am losing very little if anything by switching from the SDI player, and actually gaining by switching to the Radiance.

As for the whole concept of SDI, it seems that the key is the quality of the MPEG decoder and the player not mucking up anything after that. I have seen several suggest that the Mediatek decoder in the Oppo 981 and 970 is amongst the best, with the Panasonic decoder in the RP82 and clones a notch below. It may very well be that the Oppo 981 SDI is the best available right now. It also seems that Oppo "understands" what we need to accomplish. The 970 was a good first step, but not perfect. They have improved things with the 980 and have certainly narrowed the gap. For me, any real or perceived differences are not big enough to worry about, so I personally do not feel the need to stick with SD SDI.

Now, as to HD-SDI, I think time will tell. I am somewhat skeptical of it's usefulness. Many here are clamoring for 1080p24 - give me what's on the disc, and don't muck anything up. I do think the manufacturers are understanding, and will try to get us this "pure" output over HDMI. As for the HD-SDI avoiding HDCP, it seems that most of my handshaking issues these days are more over HDMI audio, which most will want to use, so you can't completely avoid the issue. There is also the issue of how processors will handle video from a HD-SDI input, and audio from a HDMI source (if you route it this way). Anyways, show me a mature, full-featured, dual-format player with improved performance with HD-SDI, and I am willing to give it a shot.

Thanks again for this feedback Cal87.

Just to add my 2 cents worth to the discussion in this thread.

1. I have an SDI modded 971HD - the first DVD player Oppo put out. When the next model, the 970HD, came out, I did a test comparing it and my SDI modded 971HD. Both through the VP50 at 1280 x 768 1:1 pixel mapped to my display, and sharpness set to 0 on both inputs.

The difference was small, but the SDI clearly won out. It was just that little bit sharper (better resolution on Avia and DVE test patterns) both horizontally and vertically. The other noticible difference was less noise on the SDI'd Oppo - no visible grain in the background on th test patterns whereas the 970HD did have some. I paid about $250 for the PM card and fitted this myself (I'm an electronic engineer by profession). So, for this amount of money, I thought it was a worthwhile investment for the improved PQ.

Now to point no 2, which is related to (1).

2. Some have commented that they don't buy a DVD player to look at test patterns. I couldn't agree more!!.
But, if you want to acurately measure differences in PQ, especially wrt resolution, there is no better way to do this then by using known and repeatable source material. Using these, you can measure the differences by simply looking at the test patterns. It will show you the best that you can achieve with the system under test.

Now what this means is that if you play source material that doesn't push the boundaries of your player, you will NOT be able to pick the difference between one or another if both meet or are able to handle the less than max signal boundaries.

Trying to use movies as your source reference material is fine, as long as you accept the fact that differences between various players may not be readily discernable. That's not to say that sometimes only a commercial movie DVD will bring out a fault in a player, such as tricky cadence and text scrolling, but in general most of these kind of stress tests can be found on a variety of test DVDs such as those mentioned above and others like ABT's test disc supplied with the VPxx VPs.

Coming back to VPs now, I too am debating on whether to buy the 980HD and forget about the SDI module for the Radiance. Lumagen have said that they will make the SDI module available at a low cost to anyone bying the XD. I certainly hope so as a third party SD-HD SDI to HDMI converter (the AJA Hi-5 for example) costs some $490. For that price I'd be better off buying the Oppo at $169, or perhaps wait for an all-in-one HD/BD DVD player which will obviate the need for an SDI connection (at least IMHO:D).

I somehow think that Lumagen made the right choices in ommitting SDI and analog RGBHV inputs and an analog RGBHV output on the XD - it's now certainly well priced against the competion from Pixel Magic Crystalio CII 3300 and the DVDO VP50 Pro offering more HDMI inputs and more PQ and CMS management - I think they may well have the intention to upstage these two competitors.

yes but without the SDI inputs and RGBHV output, me and others cannot take it as a serious high-end scaler, not saying it isn't, but SDI and RGBHV output is mandatory for scalers of this quality and without them it is pissing in alot of pools IMHO, converters don't cut it either, I think Lumagen is planning SDI for their top end unit aren't they? I certainly hope so along with a nice high-end RGBHV BNC output

-Gary

Thanks Phil. I think that your experience with the 480i hdmi output from the Oppo 970HD is consistent with what Gary, Cal87 and I found -- ringing compared to other sources. Gary found it in his comparison with the SDI modded 981, cal87 found it when comparing to his SDI modded RP82 and I found it when comparing to the 480i hdmi output from the Toshiba HD-A2. (all using VP50 ... cal87's observations wrt Lumagen came later).
It seems that the Oppo 970 is mucking something up between the decoder and the hdmi output (possibly in the conversion to 4:4:4 ?)

I too am comfortable with the elimination of SDI and RGHBV on the XD - works for my needs, but clearly this may not be acceptable to many.

So, anyone else want to comment on the actual Oppo 981 SDI? Haven't heard much about how this particular player performs lately.

There's always this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=828704)...

So, anyone else want to comment on the actual Oppo 981 SDI? Haven't heard much about how this particular player performs lately.

I do not have one but I MUST assume that it works perfectly. While I may differ with Gary on the superiority of the SDI transport vs HDMI, I have seen his work - opened up a unit that I bought from him.

Without a doubt, the quality of his work is top notch. I myself do tinker around and have also had a player with a SDI mod done by Key Digital. Gary's mod was cleaner, much better soldered and far better physically anchored than theirs (and anything I could possibly do).

the vp50 should not have ringing like that, trust me
-Gary

so how does a properly setup VP50 scaling look like ? Do you have a photo to show us ? (honestly just like u I'm quite shocked to see the difference. Having owned HD/HD+/VP30 in the past I find it hard to believe)

Thanks

the vp50 should not have ringing like that, trust me

FWIW both johnnyozero3 and I have noticed similar ringing due to my VP50. I don't doubt that there may be some on AVIA, but I've also seen it where the VP50 is definitely adding it.

Nice job on the SDI Oppos though Gary, they look like they're great pieces of equipment. If I had anything that accepted SDI I would have looked at picking one up.

so how does a properly setup VP50 scaling look like ? Do you have a photo to show us ? (honestly just like u I'm quite shocked to see the difference. Having owned HD/HD+/VP30 in the past I find it hard to believe)

Thanks

I had similar ringing problems with my set up, which did include the DVDO VP50. I am very pleased so far with the no-ringing on the radiance in my set up. Terrific smooth image....less digital in appearance. Though there are many things to like about the VP50 too. They both have their strengths.

Ron

I see the same ringing on my VP50 when letting it scale 480i to 1080p. Don't see the ringing when sending 1080p from my HTPC of the same test pattern.

Sorry to bump an old thread, but there is no ringing encoded in the AVIA sharpness pattern at all. Something's adding it, but it's not there on the disc.

Sorry to bump an old thread, but there is no ringing encoded in the AVIA sharpness pattern at all. Something's adding it, but it's not there on the disc.
Not on the disk, but in the processing. The conjectures are that it exists using the Oppo 970HD. Some suggest that even the VP50 could be introducing some (though I personally do not see that using 480i via the Tosh A2).
Using a HTPC (and the AVIA disk I believe) eliminates the ringing (so the disk is not at "fault")

Is there a SDI mod for the 980? I currently have a 970 (using DVI into an HD+) and hate to cycle open/close to have the player remember last position. My other player, an an SDI'd RP82 is starting to do weird things with recorded discs, like bad received satellite. It doesn't do it with purchased discs though.
Anyway, 20 discs memory plus SACD will be definitely welcome.
Cheers

980 can't be done as there is a all in one chip in that unit, no way to tap into it ;)

-Gary

Thx Gary, any suggestion with PQ at least as good as the 82 but similar functionality to that of the 980 that doesnt cost an arm and a leg?(SDIable that is)

what kind of price are we talking? ;)

-Gary

If possible <600€ (I'm in Spain) all included. JVB in NL have some in that price range but don't know what kind of decoder they have, I've read somewhere that Pannys later than the 82/91 gen have worse specs and even CUE.The 981 is ruled out because of the disc memory and also cos I'd rather have my 971 modded. I have no clue about the rest.