I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about home theater but recently a wealthy friend asked me for my advice about what is the best 35k-45k projector he could buy for his home theater and I was completely out of my league. I told him I would have to do some research and get back to him. Do any of you have advice? The store he is going through has recommended Runco, but he didn't know the model number. I really have no direction on something like this so any advice would be helpful. Thanks.

only one. dpi titan hd 250 and call it a day.

Cineramax, whats a fair price for the DPI Titan? Do any Runco's compare?

Define 'best'.

The overall best image that I've seen bar none is a blended CRT setup. It will last the longest, give the blackest blacks, but will require tweaking from time to time, so if the user is a completely hands off person, that might not be the way to go.

Runco will give one of the highest levels of customer service, but that accounts for some of the selling price.

What's the room like? Screen size? What's the customer looking for when he says 'best'?

I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about home theater but recently a wealthy friend asked me for my advice about what is the best 35k-45k projector he could buy for his home theater and I was completely out of my league. I told him I would have to do some research and get back to him. Do any of you have advice? The store he is going through has recommended Runco, but he didn't know the model number. I really have no direction on something like this so any advice would be helpful. Thanks.

akraus,

If you are truly serious about high-end HT, make plans to travel to Scottsdale, AZ, and visit Tim Martin. I have seen several blended CRT (and digital) setups in his showroom/workshop that will fall in your budget and take your breath away. Anyone can get a Runco with $$$ - why not get something unique and better?

- Steve O.

Curt,

I'll have to ask him as he didn't provide any details and I have no information on his room setup. I assume he wants to use it to watch HD-DVDs as he told me he has a hd-dvd player. He is a movie buff so it would be only for movies only as far as I know. It may be hard to convince him to go the blended CRT route as he is an extremely busy person and I assume he mainly wants to watch it versus fiddle with it. He is the type of person that will spend the money to get the best but he just wants it to work, he wouldn't spend time doing research on it in a forum. When he says best I think it has two meanings, one is image quality, but I think part of it is the cache of the brand, thus the Runco name may hold weight with him and his peers. However, he is certainly a very smart guy so if I were to provide him with a lot of reasons to choose one projector over the other even if it meant it not being a Runco he would likely do it, but he would want data to support my the choice.

I'll try to find out about his planned screen size and room dimensions next time I talk to him.

Thanks for your help guys. I appreciate it.

Steve,

I'll mention ETech to my friend but I doubt he has the time or inclination to travel to AZ. I'll keep it mind for myself when I get the resources to build my dream setup though.

-Adam

Fair?It lists for 42. I guess somewhere in the high thirities would be nice. The Runco vx-22 is semi comparable except the light filter. It is very nice but does not calibrate as well IMO. If the Titan looks d65, the Sim2 has a greenish tint on highlights, the Runco had somewhat of a sepia tone to me. It's the light filtering exclusive that makes the Titan.

Cineramax,

Thanks for your response. Would you consider DPI's customer support to be at a similar level as Runco's? Also how often does the Titan-250's lamp need replaced? I noticed the Runco is around every 6 months.

-Adam

Runco is a home theater projector company exclusively; that means they have to support some very clever people but also deal with some dumm f*cks. Runco crosses all their T's with their customer support. They have master lists for lenses, and countless other procedures to help ensure a succesful functioning product. DPI is primarily a commercial PJ company dabbling in the high end Home Theater arena. There is less staff dedicated to support exclusively for HT. That being said their stuff is well built, I have never heard of their projectors been problematic (like Barco was for some time).

I really appreciate your help Cineramax. I'm getting some valuable information. Are DPI's generally calibrated at the point of installation like Runco's? Or would an unsophisticated person in terms of HT (very sophisticated otherwise) need to get an ISF technician / DPI employee or dealer to dial in the DPI. Sorry I'm asking so many questions, but I've never really investigated products this high-end beyond reading a few press releases since personally I couldn't afford much over the JVC HD1/RS1 and am currently more interested in acquiring a 50" or 60" 8G Elite plasma due to currently living in an apartment.

No Problem. Yes they are basically point and shoot (precalibrated). I think very highly about the RS-1, but I drive a 55" plasma myself.

Beware while its nice to show our enthusiasm with a company and its product its impossible to endorse a product before it ships. No one has seen the final product in production mode.
Everything ships with issues. What few issues will we see with the Titan no one knows. Will they be major or minor, we do not know. Will they get resolved in a timely matter we do not know.
Yes I am a fan and a supporter and dealer of DPI and I am looking forward to seeing the Titan as well but I would never say its the best as of yet until the product hits the market and put through its paces. I hope it is the best!

I know people on this board who bought into high end products based on the hype on this board by all of us. I know someone who recently bought the Barco and returned it. I know someone with the new Christie and Sim and everyone of them are having issues reporting back to the manufactures who are working remedy everything. So because a dealer which I am one says buy this does not mean it is the perfect machine and be prepared even though you spent 50k to expect to have a few major complaints . I say major because when spending 50k even the smallest silliest defect becomes major to the person who shelled out the 50K :)

I am sorry Alan, but having seen the color of the prototype it would be an impossibility for them to f*ck it up before shipping. There is a reason why my eyeballs are insured for 6 million dollars. ;)

Well theyre not, but some think they should. :D

I am only expressing my enthusiasm for the color of this projector over the other two comparables I have seen. I am in no way saying that the projector will be issues-free.But for a uhp 3 chip projector colorimetry-wise it's the Titan and call it a day.

I know someone who recently bought the Barco and returned it.

The Barco FLM-hd14 is a kickass projector with the best color in the world, but I would return it immediatedly upon learning of the impending introduction of the DP1500 with 2k, hdcp, servo zoom lenses, 3 panel convergence, aperture plates, TIP7 calibration (how much did that cost TI to develop? 20-30 million dollars?), 8 bit to 4:4:4 12 bit dual dvi depth expansion. It's the wet dream of any videophile.

My point is that the most important parameter of a projector by far IS COLOR. And I willl keep hammering this to anyone listening: It's the color Stupid.

I understand that the Titan has had issues meeting its release date. What are peoples' estimates of the longest one would have to wait to get one, given that there is probably already a large amount of preorders. Also, pardon my ignorance but will the Titan-250 have something along the lines of the Runco Cinewide with Autoscope available at release?

I hope I'll have more information byMonday night about the size of the screen, primary sources, room dimensions etc.. Though he may not really know that much. I get the feeling that he relies on his dealer a great deal in making decisions (and from personal experience I don't particularly trust them to provide accurate or unbiased information).

They have a scaler ISCO 2 lens sled package. The scaler is basically a Vantage unit. Runco builds their own scaler. The way that the lens slider attaches to the projector in the Runco seems better designed.

Alan knows the latest updates on delivery, I think he said September, pm AVS.

Peter color is of course important but for instance if we spend $$ on something and it cannot do proper 1:1 pixel mapping for instance then color fast becomes secondary. A projector with proper color but lacking in other important areas what good is it. That is why I would never lay my reputation on the line on something until it ships and put through its paces

As far as the Barco it was bought by someone on this board and arrived out of wack in need of some adjustments. The company would not allow him to make these adjustment and would only allow a service technician to do the work at additional cost and at a far out date. His expressed frustration came from finding it difficult to work with the manufacture after spending top dollar. He returned the machine & I do not think at that point you could talk him into keeping the machine because it had great color. Point is there are other areas just as important when spending this kind of money then just color. Some of these manufactures are not use to dealing with the home theater customer and their way of doing things may not agree with the level of service expect just because we spent 100k. People should be made aware of this. I am not speaking of DPI of course just in general from some good insight :)

LOL! That is typical Barco. That is why they are not in the home business. It is a company that is partly owned by one of Europes oldest bureacracies: the Belgian Government. Dealing with them is like pulling teeth. That being said their cinema offerings are workhorses. I look forward to working with the Tiger 2 tank of projectors.

I'm going to present all the info I've gathered here and elsewhere and see what my friend thinks. However, if I would have to guess, I think he would still choose the Runco due to it being the path of least resistance and the customer service and brand recognition it has. I'm guessing the dealer showed him the VX-22d, but i could be wrong. Any special considerations about this particular model? Also whats a fair % off the MSRP (I understand that Runco has fairly strict pricing guidelines). I would feel bad if my friend got ripped off as the dealer may just see him as deep pockets ripe for the taking.

Thanks again guys. When its all done I'll see if I can't take some pictures.

for instance if we spend $$ on something and it cannot do proper 1:1 pixel mapping for instance then color fast becomes secondary.

Why?

The Fujitsu plasmas could not do 1:1 pixel mapping in 2002 and they blew the hell out of any other display at the time.

I don't know, and normally don't care if the projector does 1:1 mapping, if it looks great the proof is in the pudding. Most likely the Barco and DPI have 1:1 pm cause they look great, the higher end Runco stuff is phenomenal too. I am sure it has 1:1 PM.

You have to deal with 5,000 times the amount of customers that I do, so I can't fathom your insight. You left me wondering about this pixel mapping thing. I will have to ponder.

I think he would still choose the Runco due to it being the path of least resistance and the customer service and brand recognition it has.

A most prudent decision.

Peter the 1:1 pixel mapping is of course very important other wise scaling artifacts are introduced in the same sence you now choose to not support anamorphic lens to bypass any additional scaling.

My mention of 1:1 was just an example and not meant toward anyone manufacture. Just saying what if :)

I am excitted for the Titan and have high hopes its the dream projector for all of us:)

Akraus, where are you located? one of the critical factors would be the ability to go look at a system. because do not forget that the display is only one part of the system. there are many things such as lighting, screen (masking or not) audio, sources, control, and of course the skill set to put it all together.

If you mention where you are located, you could get some suggestions as to where to demo some system possibilities.

Do remember that the display is only one part of all of this.

The Barco FLM-hd14 is a kickass projector with the best color in the world, but I would return it immediatedly upon learning of the impending introduction of the DP1500 with 2k, hdcp, servo zoom lenses, 3 panel convergence, aperture plates, TIP7 calibration (how much did that cost TI to develop? 20-30 million dollars?), 8 bit to 4:4:4 12 bit dual dvi depth expansion. It's the wet dream of any videophile.
Damn. If it only had the necessary contrast/black level to go along with the rest.

I'm going to say spending days with a SIM HT 5000 and watching tons of black and white material no green color cast appeared any time. I would have liked to see the CCA active but gray scale tracking was excellent. The panel registration was the best I've ever seen in any three panel device with tremendous uniformity great optics and blinding light output. The on/ off contrast was the best there is in a three chip DLP right now as well.

I'm about to spring for one for my theater upgrade, as soon as I see that the CCA has been opened.

Art

Damn. If it only had the necessary contrast/black level to go along with the rest.


Sie leiden unter einem Neurosis des Schwarzpegels.

I'm going to say spending days with a SIM HT 5000 and watching tons of black and white material no green color cast appeared any time. I would have liked to see the CCA active but gray scale tracking was excellent. The panel registration was the best I've ever seen in any three panel device with tremendous uniformity great optics and blinding light output. The on/ off contrast was the best there is in a three chip DLP right now as well.

I'm about to spring for one for my theater upgrade, as soon as I see that the CCA has been opened.

Art

Best of luck. Perhaps I see the green highlights when contrast is cranked up for show conditions(CEDIA and EHX Spring), and you having your cave and under the precise calibration of Ken the symptom doe not show. But I fully was giving sim2 the benefit of the doubt all the way to EHX where I SAW THE GREENISH HIGHLIGHTS, and then got pissed, really pissed, because I have to practically build my own projector now with the custom mods to the Barco.

Or they balance the needs of the entire device and do not get obsessive on one aspect to a fault on a device that is not even shipping.

If that aspect stabs you in the eye, one must get obsessive about it.

Sie leiden unter einem Neurosis des Schwarzpegels.
Wenn Sie Ihre Farbneurose kurieren denke ich ein bisschen über meine Schwarzobsession nach. ;)

Hi

To the feuding pairs, we must now add:

Cineramax/Dizzman :)

Back to the thread

I am OK with the price point of 35~45.. but I would be more interested in knowing what size of screen this PJ is destined to light, the amount of lumens and options (ISCO things, Constant height, etc) desired. One has to be very cautious in video these days before spending that amount.. I am not an expert in video like some on this board but I can tell you that for a screen of around 100" diagonal there are several PJs, (JVC RS-1, Sony Ruby, Marantz VPL-11S, SIM, etc). that for a fraction say 20% to 60% of the range, may provide a picture that can in some ways match or even surpass the heavy lifters...

I'm going to say spending days with a SIM HT 5000 and watching tons of black and white material no green color cast appeared any time. I would have liked to see the CCA active but gray scale tracking was excellent. The panel registration was the best I've ever seen in any three panel device with tremendous uniformity great optics and blinding light output. The on/ off contrast was the best there is in a three chip DLP right now as well.

I'm about to spring for one for my theater upgrade, as soon as I see that the CCA has been opened.

ArtArt, the color calibration controls were opened up with the latest firmware release, mid May. I updated the firmware and calibrated a HT5000 last week and will be doing another one next week. The service menu presentation is virtually identical to the HT3000. I was able to calibrate it to an almost perfect gray scale, Delta C* less than 1 over the complete IRE range of 10 to 100. This thing throws an incredible image as you know. I have now seen 3 of these, for extended periods of time to view and calibrate, and NONE had any green color cast whatsoever.

I have no idea what Cineramax saw, but I do know he never misses an opportunity to trash Sim2. Unfairly, IMO.
Bob

I have no agenda. If I see the best projector I'm going to use it, wether I can sell or not. There is no money /margin to be made in digital cinema pj's they are sold at a direct to user price, yet if that is what it takes, the client comes first. That is being unbiased, not to metion generous.

Unfairly when they dominated the market?

Art, the color calibration controls were opened up with the latest firmware release, mid May. I updated the firmware and calibrated a HT5000 last week and will be doing another one next week. The service menu presentation is virtually identical to the HT3000. I was able to calibrate it to an almost perfect gray scale, Delta C* less than 1 over the complete IRE range of 10 to 100. This thing throws an incredible image as you know. I have now seen 3 of these, for extended periods of time to view and calibrate, and NONE had any green color cast whatsoever.



Just asking based on my ignorance of the HT3000 , the primaries are freely movable within the gamut ?

Art

Just asking based on my ignorance of the HT3000 , the primaries are freely movable within the gamut ?

ArtNo, as far as I could tell, and I looked pretty thoroughly through the service menu. They are making a big mistake by not having this capability in this price range.

Bob

Citation 444 : You wouldn't happen to be using a REAL spectrum analyzer? Because it is totally unacceptable practice to calibrate 3 chip dlp with one of the little laptop systems. Even the SA module for laptops does not measure the wavelenghts accurately. You need a a Photoreserach or minolta unit for 3 chip dlp. NON-negotiable.

Also known as a spectral radiometer

The adjustment for the primaries are not yet activated in the Sim.

Thank you for your candor. Ahem Ahem.

I'm about to spring for one for my theater upgrade, as soon as I see that the CCA has been opened.

Art

Wow, Art!
It seems that the age of the stack is coming to a close.
This is the official death of CRT.
You read it here first.

PS Good news for frugal CRT afficionados

Curt,

I'll have to ask him as he didn't provide any details and I have no information on his room setup. I assume he wants to use it to watch HD-DVDs as he told me he has a hd-dvd player. He is a movie buff so it would be only for movies only as far as I know. It may be hard to convince him to go the blended CRT route as he is an extremely busy person and I assume he mainly wants to watch it versus fiddle with it. He is the type of person that will spend the money to get the best but he just wants it to work, he wouldn't spend time doing research on it in a forum. When he says best I think it has two meanings, one is image quality, but I think part of it is the cache of the brand, thus the Runco name may hold weight with him and his peers. However, he is certainly a very smart guy so if I were to provide him with a lot of reasons to choose one projector over the other even if it meant it not being a Runco he would likely do it, but he would want data to support my the choice.

I'll try to find out about his planned screen size and room dimensions next time I talk to him.

Thanks for your help guys. I appreciate it.

Hi akraus,

This is a dangerous place to ask questions like these ;) There is a strong aversion to things like going to a good dealer, buying the best product in the price range of interest and then contracting for sale and set-up as well as any other system design issues. Replies to that statement will no doubt elicit the desire on the part of the installer to make money (a business that wants to make money!?! An outrage!!!), point to them not necessarily having the best interests of the customer in mind. With a good dealer, these arguments are bogus. Good dealers have a wealth of experience, leverage their standing with their vendors to get things done for their clients when there are problems, and are far more committed to doing it right than given credit for. So ends the spiel :p

To answer your question, I would say there are two contenders. One option would be a Meridian MF-1 D-ILA projector and its accompanying Meridian/Faroudja processor. They also now have options for fixed focal length lenses from premier lens maker Schneider. You can also do a 2:35 screen set-up with them, also referred to as a "constant height" set up, with Cinemascope being the largest screen image and masking panels that move in from the side to mask off 1:85, 1:78, and 1:33 (and 1:66 and anything in between for that matter) just as in the best commercial theatres.

The second option would be the Runco (yes, Runco!) VX-22D. This is a 3-chip DLP w/1080p resolution as well. Runco pioneered the turnkey 2:35 solution, and their implementation of it is superb. Go to their site for the technical description of it.

Of the two, the Runco is much brighter and will drive a much bigger screen. It also has a superb video processor, and its optics are top notch. And customer support is terrific.

The Meridian is its equal in many ways, though it does not have nearly the light output, so the screen will need to be kept smaller. You could make a case that the MF-1 is a little more 'fiilm-like' in its look. But both are superb.

Cost-wise, the base MF-1 is $26,000 and the VX-22D is $44,000. Adding lens options to either for 2:35 (an absolute must if your friend is into movies--most of which are 2:35--and wants some bragging rights--no shame in that--with his friends, then the cost goes up by up to $15,000 with the Runco depending on lens options, and I'm not positive about the upgrade cost to the Meridian, but I believe it is less.

If the 2:35 option is of interest, and you want more light than the MF-1, then the single-chip Runco VX-6000D has the same quality optics as the 22, but because it's a single-chip is $34,000. It still has a lot of light output to drive a nice sized screen. As above, 2:35 lens options can run up to $15,000 depending on placement issues. It can be far less than that I should add.

Best of luck. At that price point, he should get something terrific. Don't forget to tell him that he should expect to pay fairly for professional set-up, installation, and calibration. Paying for an expensive projector does not mean you get these things for free. It makes paying a fair price for them a necessity.

They also now have options for fixed focal length lenses from premier lens maker Schneider.

I like hearing this and wish this practice was more widely offered especially with high end high priced machines.

Hi akraus,

This is a dangerous place to ask questions like these ;) There is a strong aversion to things like going to a good dealer, buying the best product in the price range of interest and then contracting for sale and set-up as well as any other system design issues.

I would disagree wholeheartedly in this particular forum. When value is added and a good job is done all around, most will happily pay for it. the issue here is that lots of folks go into a dealership and know more about the projector or other aspects of the system than the dealer does. As such, the question arises... what the hell am i paying this monkey for?

I cannot share your enthusiasm for the meridian. In fact went to get trained on it and came out dissapointed because the jvc looked better. Meridian should discontinue that product at once and move on to the next.

FYI, I am number 20 on the list for a Titan 1080p-250 (ordered in January), and my latest estimate is late July.

I would disagree wholeheartedly in this particular forum. When value is added and a good job is done all around, most will happily pay for it. the issue here is that lots of folks go into a dealership and know more about the projector or other aspects of the system than the dealer does. As such, the question arises... what the hell am i paying this monkey for?

Dizzman: No offense intended. I just read all the dang time about this crappy dealer and that crappy dealer. It gets old. There are great dealers in most parts of the country. But if they have a new salesperson or someone not as knowledgeable as others on staff, that can skew a customer's view. My advice would be to decline the first offer for help, and get a feel for the salespeople there and ask the one you get the best vibe from for assistance. As for knowing more about one particular product, that is very possible regardless of the quality or knowledge level of the dealer and their staff. If you, as the customer, have a particular interest in a product and research the heck out of it, then initially you may well know more. But a good salesperson has resources to get information Joe Public cannot and the roles can reverse very quickly. Combined with knowledge of similar product and other aspects of system design that can only come from experience, the customer is well served in trusting a good dealer to optimize their experience for any given dollars spent.

Again, no offense intended. Cheers.................Scott W.

I cannot share your enthusiasm for the meridian. In fact went to get trained on it and came out dissapointed because the jvc looked better. Meridian should discontinue that product at once and move on to the next.

If you did not like it, something was amiss. It looks incredible. I have not seen the RS-1. And don't discount the impact of the new lens options. You can buy a 6 megapixel camera for $300. You can also spend $3,000. Main difference? Optics.

I cannot share your enthusiasm for the meridian. In fact went to get trained on it and came out dissapointed because the jvc looked better. Meridian should discontinue that product at once and move on to the next.
I agree. 15000:1 versus 2500:1 is no contest. The Meridian may have better shading unformity etc. but when it looks like milky crap with low APL stuff it's all in vain if you watch feature films. They should move on and fine tune the RS1 for optimal performance. After that nobody will shed a tear that the old model is gone and embrace the new model.

If you did not like it, something was amiss. It looks incredible. I have not seen the RS-1. And don't discount the impact of the new lens options. You can buy a 6 megapixel camera for $300. You can also spend $3,000. Main difference? Optics.
And noise with low light. And fine tuning possibilities, access to RAW data etc. The RS1 lens is not bad, by the way. Pretty decent.

FYI, I am number 20 on the list for a Titan 1080p-250 (ordered in January), and my latest estimate is late July.

This is really disappointing. Not that there are rules for this sort of thing but showing a product at CEDIA then barely getting it out (if at all) by the time the next CEDIA rolls around is unfortunate. :( What will they show this year I wonder. I love the guys at DPI but they need to be able to deliver.

Art

Wow, Art!
It seems that the age of the stack is coming to a close.
This is the official death of CRT.



I'm not so sure if I'd say that but I've hads my set up for three and a half years. I'm ready to try some other things. It will not touch my set up in low APL but has other advantages.

Art

I agree. 15000:1 versus 2500:1 is no contest. The Meridian may have better shading unformity etc. but when it looks like milky crap with low APL stuff it's all in vain if you watch feature films. They should move on and fine tune the RS1 for optimal performance. After that nobody will shed a tear that the old model is gone and embrace the new model.

There is more to this differential than sequential cr. There is way more MTF in the image.

I'm going to be meeting with my friend today. I'm going to ask him the screen size he wants and if he says around 10 feet I'll tell him to also consider the JVC and Marantz (You guys have any preference between the 2?, I notice Marantz has recently updated their 1080p model).

Also, what type of price difference would there be in terms of bulb replacement costs between the JVC, Marantz, and Runco vx-22d.

Thanks

I loved the marantz, I only noticed the rainbow while standing up looking for a chair to sit down on. Once my butt was firmly in place I swung back and forth and side, like Stevie Wonder singing "insn't she lovely"; I could not for the heck of it notice a rainbow once I was seating down. Great image and the most deep color 16 bit projector I have seen.

I'm not so sure if I'd say that but I've hads my set up for three and a half years. I'm ready to try some other things. It will not touch my set up in low APL but has other advantages.

Art


Come on Art, don't be so gentle.

You wouldn't be going into all this expense had it not smoked the stack.
Pardon the pun... ;)

I agree. 15000:1 versus 2500:1 is no contest. The Meridian may have better shading unformity etc. but when it looks like milky crap with low APL stuff it's all in vain if you watch feature films. They should move on and fine tune the RS1 for optimal performance. After that nobody will shed a tear that the old model is gone and embrace the new model.

Thats rather short sighted, to judge by one isolated parameter, with the RS1 producing way less than half (usually below 300) of the ANSI of many good machines.

The Rs-1 has one thing going for it. It is the first LCOS that punches through thae smearing people like to refer to as Analog Look.

Come on Art, don't be so gentle.

You wouldn't be going into all this expense had it not smoked the stack.
Pardon the pun... ;)


Well that was what Cliff said. :D Not exactly my style. ;)

Art

Uh oh, did you just say that Cliff smoked your stack? :D