Every surround processor thread at this forum eventually gets closed by the Moderator, because too many of us yell and scream at each other in gobblygook
but the essence is "mine is better than yours", "yours sucks", "you're stupid to have that surround processor", "why don't you get a good surround processor like mine", "you're surround processor company is slow and will never upgrade to the latest standards like mine". Get it???

The problem with this line of reasoning is surround processors are like cars, like wines, etc. Somewhat different features, audio quality and price points. And each of us subjectively determines what works best for each of us.

For example, yes, I luv my Theta CB3 and Six Shooter robot multi-channel analog preamp. I built a special dedicated room with top acoustical dimensions, adjustable acoustic treatments (Michael Green Pressure Zone Controllers),
and this makes everything sound that much better. And it makes it so you can much more easily hear the differences between different speakers and components, and yes, even some tweaky stuff.

Someone else might have their gear in their multi-purpose family room, not near the acoustics of mine.

Just cause I "hear" that my Theta CB3 and SS are worthwhile, for the extra $$, my setup doesn't mean that its subjectively worthwhile in someone else's multi-purpose family room setup.

I pretty much have equal speakers all around, in a circle at 2, 4, 8 and 10 o'clock,
And I've adjusted my acoustic treatments so that I get a fantastic phantom center image from the front left and right speakers, and an outstanding ambient surround image from the rear left and right speakers. And I get outstanding side and diagonal imaging between speakers as well. I've placed my three Aerial subs along the front screen wall, where they are pretty flat. Theta's Six Shooter really adds to my enjoyment, as I listen to a lot of multi-channel high resolution music, and use my HD DVD player's multi-channel analog outputs for Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby True HD HD DVDs. I use just one sub output from the CB3-Six Shooter, as my three subs are chained. So the Six Shooter works fantastic for me. Still I use a lot my CB3's Extreme DACs for redbook CD, DirecTV and DVD.

I get my money's worth out of my Theta gear.

But someone else might not care about multi-channel high resolution music.
And even redbook CD might not be all that important. Movies and tv may be the priority. And the room may have some substantial room node problems and need for bass taming where built-in digital EQ like in the Lexicon MC-12 is really helpful.
My Theta CB3 and Six Shooter may well not fit that person's subjective needs at all. And the fact that this person can use his Lex HDMI for multi-channel audio really works for him.

On the other hand, with my setup, I'm not super concerned with multi-channel audio over HDMI. But I already have top notch multi-channel audio quality. And as a long time Theta owner, yes, I have a lot of patience, years of patience, knowing that when Theta comes out with their HDMI multi-channel audio, they'll do it right. Of course I'd luv to have it sooner than later but it doesn't make or break my luv for the product right now. That's something that the above Lex owner just doesn't understand.

I'd like to suggest that folks post in this thread in a positive vein. Don't discuss someone else's surround processor. Discuss your surround processor and why it fits the bill for you.

"I'd like to suggest that folks post in this thread in a positive vein. Don't discuss someone else's surround processor. Discuss your surround processor and why it fits the bill for you."

Would be nice if you did that yourself.....

Read your own comments....

"Someone else might have their gear in their multi-purpose family room, not near the acoustics of mine.

Just cause I "hear" that my Theta CB3 and SS are worthwhile, for the extra $$, my setup doesn't mean that its subjectively worthwhile in someone else's multi-purpose family room setup."

The translation is still "mine is better than yours", "yours sucks."

Accept the fact that others have very good rooms and systems too... and didn't pick Theta.

"But someone else might not care about multi-channel high resolution music.
And even redbook CD might not be all that important. Movies and tv may be the priority. And the room may have some substantial room node problems and need for bass taming where built-in digital EQ like in the Lexicon MC-12 is really helpful."

Again... same thing. Accept that some may care as much, if not more, about multi-channel music... and not pick Theta.

Or do you just like making posts with 'digs' in them for the non-luvers?

Shawn

Shawn, I wasn't saying anything in that post about you or your system. And I wasn't saying that my room and system is necessarily the best sounding of all the stuff out there.
I was merely making a comparison how in that situation, some other surround processor might subjectively be better for that person.

Perhaps you felt I was digging the MC-12 by mentioning it? I wasn't. I was simply pointing out how the bass EQ feature in some cases might be a more deciding factor.

Please do not take this thread personally. Its not directed at you.

Again, could folks please post in this thread in a positive vein. Lets avoid stuff like "mine is better than yours" and lets avoid personal attacks. PLEASE.

Lets talk about our own surround processor and system and why it works for us.
(And lets not criticize anyone else or their system or how it sounds.)

"Lets talk about our own surround processor and system and why it works for us.
(And lets not criticize anyone else or their system or how it sounds.)"

So do it. Make a post where you *only* talk about your own surround processor and system.

I'm not the one that posted that those with lousy rooms might choose xyz. Or those that don't care about multi-channel music might choose xyz with the various implications that entails. You did.

You only know why you made your choice, not why others made theirs.

Accept the fact that others have very good rooms and systems too... and didn't make the same choice as you.

Accept that some may care as much, if not more, about multi-channel music... and not make the same choice as you.

Shawn

Accept the fact that others have very good rooms and systems too... and didn't make the same choice as you.

Accept that some may care as much, if not more, about multi-channel music... and not make the same choice as you.

Shawn

I never said I didn't accept that. Why are you always so argumentative?

Steve,

IMO Shawn's comments are not unwarranted, and if you can't see why then it's not surprising there are the issues you raqised.

I'm with Noah and Shawn on this one. Steve, this is the kind of thread I was referring to in my comments over on the Curt Palme thread. One moment you're complaining about the fights, and the next you're starting one in a brand new thread! I mean, my gosh, in post #1 you rag on Lexicon processors and their customers, and in post #2 you turn right around and tell people to focus on their own processor, not other people's. How hypocritical can you get?

You are not a victim here, Steve. Get over yourself.

IMO, Steve was trying to start a poitiv thread and posted examples of how different people's rooms and priorities could lead to different processor choices.

You would have to be sooo in love with your gear to let his comments get you so wriled up so quickly.

I gotta ask ya. Do you tuck your prepro under your pillow at night, or maybe sleep in the Audio room just so you can be close?

This group can't discuss prepro's in a logical fashion because of fanboism of several members. Its kinda funny, and kinda sad, don't ya think?

And while we are at it... GRANITE CABLES SUCK!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Sorry, an attempt at some levity.

Steve,

I have a Halcro, and it fits some of my needs but probably won't fit all of them until the release the HDMI Audio upgrade. I didn't buy a prepro with great DACs, to then pass it Analog signals from my HD-DVD (for example).

The Halcro does sound nice, and has two 7.1 inputs, so it will hold me over for now. It is great for movies, does well will CDs, and prety godd with High Res udio because the Analog pass through is pretty good.

But other propros will have HDMI Audio someday, so Halcro had better make thier upgrade reasonably priced or I will move to another unit.

For the most part I like the Halcro, but we see how the "end-game" works out.

"Lets talk about our own surround processor and system and why it works for us.
(And lets not criticize anyone else or their system or how it sounds.)"

So do it. Make a post where you *only* talk about your own surround processor and system.

Shawn

Problem is when one talks about their own surround processor and system and why their choice of processor is better for them, some folks routinely interpet everything they can that its a put down of their choice in processor or their system - even when its not.

I urge the moderator to rename this forum as " Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+) who recreate Jerry Springer Show" forum

:) :) :D


Cheers,
Kishore

I'm not the one that posted that those with lousy rooms might choose xyz. Or those that don't care about multi-channel music might choose xyz with the various implications that entails. You did.

Shawn

I was only giving an example of why my processor may sound better to me in my room yet would make no difference is some other room. Mebbe I should have referenced someone's home theater in a box system instead and you wouldn't have been offended. I wasn't talking about you or anyone else who posts here in this forum. But I guess my word ain't good enough - unless I sell my Theta gear and you approve of my replacement.

And while we are at it... GRANITE CABLES SUCK!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Hey, I don't make fun of the baby noted in your signature. I accept your humble apology.

Steve,

I have a Halcro, and it fits some of my needs but probably won't fit all of them until the release the HDMI Audio upgrade. I didn't buy a prepro with great DACs, to then pass it Analog signals from my HD-DVD (for example).

The Halcro does sound nice, and has two 7.1 inputs, so it will hold me over for now. It is great for movies, does well will CDs, and prety godd with High Res udio because the Analog pass through is pretty good.

But other propros will have HDMI Audio someday, so Halcro had better make thier upgrade reasonably priced or I will move to another unit.

For the most part I like the Halcro, but we see how the "end-game" works out.

Perfect. My point of starting this thread was to get comments like this.

I urge the moderator to rename this forum as " Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+) who recreate Jerry Springer Show" forum

:) :) :D


Cheers,
Kishore

For the most part, this thread only tends to prove that most if not all of us show our biases in this forum whenever we post about surround processors, that "Mine is better than yours" is here to stay even though some of us (even me, on occasion) try to get away from that to have a productive discussion. Which some folks don't believe is possible for me.

I'm not sure whats worse - a thread about power cords or a thread about surround processors.

"Problem is when one talks about their own surround processor and system and why their choice of processor is better for them, some folks routinely interpet everything they can that its a put down of their choice in processor or their system - even when its not."

You can't talk just about your own choice without digs on others choices. Your first post in this thread shows this.

"I was only giving an example of why my processor may sound better to me in my room yet would make no difference is some other room."

That wasn't how you worded it above.

"and you wouldn't have been offended."

I wasn't offended at all. Just pointing out what you claimed you wanted to avoid in the thread you did in the very first post of the thread. You can't set the rules then just turn around and decide they don't apply to you.

"But I guess my word ain't good enough - unless I sell my Theta gear and you approve of my replacement."

I couldn't care less if you sell your Theta or not. I am quite sure that will never happen. It obviously works for you.

"For the most part, this thread only tends to prove that most if not all of us show our biases in this forum whenever we post about surround processors, that "Mine is better than yours" is here to stay even though some of us (even me, on occasion) try to get away from that to have a productive discussion. Which some folks don't believe is possible for me."

The very first post in this thread illustrates this. The only person that has posted a 'mine is better than yours' type post is you. The only person that has made a post about the imagined mindset of the owner of a competing pre-pro is you. No one else in this thread has said a word about a processor they don't own... other then you.

Shawn

Shawn. why don't we do this - each of us post what we chose our surround processor which may include our subjective bias or perhaps stuff we say someone else may misinterpret - AND each of us who posts in this thread agrees to ignore comments made by anyone which we may either properly interpret or perhaps misinterpret as putting down our own choice of surround processor or how our system sounds. Are you game for this?

Shawn. why don't we do this - each of us post what we chose our surround processor which may include our subjective bias or perhaps stuff we say someone else may misinterpret - AND each of us who posts in this thread agrees to ignore comments made by anyone which we may either properly interpret or perhaps misinterpret as putting down our own choice of surround processor or how our system sounds. Are you game for this?

NO TAKERS????? Come on. I promise to put a leash on Bulldogger.

I don't know but it seems to me that ALL of your surround processors could be taking a beating by this lowly Denon piece soon.

http://cineramax.com/images/denon%20avp01r.jpg

It has sixteen channel for Bi amping, multiple subs, multiple channels of speakers.

Full blown Audissey, h1.3, ip controllable and IP radio. HD radio.

Since all of the new processors have to use a new hardware chip to effectively handle the HD formats in HDMI. I argue that there will not be much difference in how they sound. This one is built very well.

http://cineramax.com/images/denon_avpa1hd_front1.jpg

Not to mention the matching 10 channel bridgeable to 4 ohm amp.

http://cineramax.com/images/denon_poa_a1hd_front1.jpg

http://cineramax.com/images/denon_poa_a1hd_inside.jpg

Cineramax, what's the list on these beasts? When are they to be available?

Is that the new Denon 'Pre' I heard about at CES. It was supposed to be able to wash dishes too? :)

"I don't know but it seems to me that ALL of your surround processors could be talking a beating by this lowly Denon piece soon."

I don't know, this will be a pretty strong combo too. ;)

Shawn

It is slated for 15 grand for the combo. See it in September.

I don't know, this will be a pretty strong combo too. ;)


Shawn, you tease! What's that silver box on the bottom? And do you luv it?

--Andre

Andre,

"What's that silver box on the bottom?"

Just a little something from Oregon.

"And do you luv it?"

I can neither confirm nor deny 'luving' it. NDA and all that. ;)

Shawn

It is slated for 15 grand for the combo. See it in September.

I'd take it more seriously if it weren't for the garish overkill in inputs. A true high-end piece would have a far more strategic, rather than foolish, array of inputs and outputs. Looks like typical Denon features over quality design, taken to ridiculous.

And it will still be out of date in a year or two, just like a $3K piece.

I don't know but it seems to me that ALL of your surround processors could be talking a beating by this lowly Denon piece soon.

http://cineramax.com/images/denon%20avp01r.jpg

It has sixteen channel for Bi amping, multiple subs, multiple channels of speakers.

Full blown Audissey, h1.3, ip controllable and IP radio. HD radio.

Since all of the new processors have to use a new hardware chip to effectively handle the HD formats in HDMI. I argue that there will not be much difference in how they sound. This one is built very well.

http://cineramax.com/images/denon_avpa1hd_front1.jpg

Not to mention the matching 10 channel bridgeable to 4 ohm amp.

http://cineramax.com/images/denon_poa_a1hd_front1.jpg

http://cineramax.com/images/denon_poa_a1hd_inside.jpg

Cineramax is directly responding to the questions I asked when I started this thread and he makes a valid point - he argues there will not be much difference in how surround processor sound in HDMI in the HD formats, as they all have to use a new hardware chip.

Could he be right about this?

And might some of us with more "audiophile" surround processors, whether Meridian, Theta, Lex or Halcro, find that the Dolby Digital track via coaxial/toslink
processed by the surround processor's "better" DACs sounds as good or better as the HDMI with the new and better HD audio formats? I hope not, but its possible.

"Could he be right about this?"

The decoding of DD and DTS is standard. Does all equipment that does DD/DTS decoding sound the same?

Or might the additional post processing some do (additional surround extraction, bass management, time alignment, room EQ,etc...etc..) and the quality of the DACs/line stage have an effect on the end result?

Why would that change just with a new format?

"And might some of us with more "audiophile" surround processors, whether Meridian, Theta, Lex or Halcro, find that the Dolby Digital track via coaxial/toslink processed by the surround processor's "better" DACs sounds as good or better as the HDMI with the new and better HD audio formats?"

No. When you are listening to a HD-DVD which sounds better. S/PDIF to your pre-pro or 6 channel analog from the player through the SS? Now consider what happens when you have HDMI and can hear the HD soundtracks in full resolution using your pre-pros processing, DACs and line stage.

Shawn

I personally think that these will be an audiophile tour de force, in many if not most aspects, with good ole Denon reliability and upgradeability to boot. It certainly gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling over the tact gear. Which is probably getiing jetisoned from my upcoming designs. Just think of it, if it trully sounds great, which I believe it will that frees up budget to do 3biamping front speakers (like the dynaudio acoustics MF3 behind a perf scree), still do 4 channels of surround and leave 5 channels of subwoofer. It's lake a Lucas studio in your home. From an eq and mix mode it pretty much behave lake a Lake x-over unit.

It has one denon link to preserve sacd and dvda. I am hot to trot on the porspects of this unti , my only caveta that it may only go down to 5Hz in liew of DC (for rotary sub integration purposes- but even so ill just use the trw from 5 to 20) since 90% of the infrsonic features are in that range.

I personally think that these will be an audiophile tour de force, in many if not most aspects, with good ole Denon reliability and upgradeability to boot.

I'm still not seeing it. Too much crap in there, too much analog stuff. If you can afford $15K, you can afford to keep your sources current. Ergo, that's all for show and certainly not going to help keep S/N down. A really high-end piece doesn't need S-video or component really and Audyssey, IMO, isn't nearly ready to be "audiophile" as it still does more damage than good in the mids and highs. IOW, it's just saying "look, we've got *more* so we're better". I don't buy that one. Expensive mass market, sure. That being said, a lot of so called high-end preamps are largely posing as well. I've been pushing a few companies to be brave enough to do all digital preamps with maybe only a slot available as a legacy connection add on if you need.

HDMI audio extraction should be about equal across all platforms. There are but a small number of chipmakers that make the chipsets needed to do HDMI processing, and the licensing bodies involved do not allow companies roll their own.

Audio codec handling is also relatively standard. Yes, there are buggy implementations. But codecs are standardized on the decoding side, so bit-perfect decoding is always possible. There is no reason to believe that DSP-based decoding system is going to outperform a commodity chip for decoding purposes.

So through these first two stages of digital processing, yes, all decent processors will be the same. But that doesn't mean that they will be the same from that point forward. After all, there are several digital processing stages left: matrix processing and bass management, for example. In some cases, room correction/equalization and digital crossovers (bass management being a form of this of course) are also part of the chain. And then there is the analog secton, the DACs and amplifiers.

So even with all of the standardization in HDMI and codecs, there is plenty to distinguish digital processors from each other.

Well, the lack of ease of use of Denon gear should help keep Cineramax rolling in programming money, at least :)

You'd better have DAMN good wiring skills if you're going to use even 1/2 of those inputs and outputs. When it gets that complex, I'd much prefer separate components, although I've always liked Denon stuff.

Still, can you imagine the nightmare of disconnecting everything when that one day comes that something in the beast needs servicing?

Well, you gotta admit, that's one of the advantages of a properly functioning HDMI input---one cable carrying video and multichannel audio... does clean things up a bit...

I doubt you can even use 1/2 of those inputs simultaneously. The digital audio, HDMI, and component video inputs are assignable.

My perfect "audiophile" preamp has about 4 HDMI ins (one on the front) and about 6 digital audio inputs (two on the front) and that's it aside from pre-outs. Digital audio outputs for recording or digital speakers.

I personally think that these will be an audiophile tour de force, in many if not most aspects, with good ole Denon reliability and upgradeability to boot. It certainly gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling over the tact gear.


My current experience with Denon's reliability is very bad. :mad: So much so that I will try NOT to work with it and if I must, it will be with the understanding that I recommend against this brand and the customers are on their own if it fails. IE they will pay my labor rate to deal with it.

$15K buys a lot of good pre-pro/amp combos in todays market.

While ON PAPER this Denon may be the cat's meow in the real world, where sound quality will out shine specs, I bet it will be a short lived product. IMO

My current experience with Denon's reliability is very bad. :mad: So much so that I will try NOT to work with it and if I must, it will be with the understanding that I recommend against this brand and the customers are on their own if it fails. IE they will pay my labor rate to deal with it.

$15K buys a lot of good pre-pro/amp combos in todays market.

While ON PAPER this Denon may be the cat's meow in the real world, where sound quality will out shine specs, I bet it will be a short lived product. IMO

What's that saying "You don't get something for nothing". You can't put all those connections and features info one gigantic surround processor for only $7,500 and expect the level of audio performance that some of us crave. Regardless of reliability, as that I'm not familiar with. Certainly there's a market for Denon including their higher end stuff - but their higher end stuff is not the "higher end" that some of us crave.

but their higher end stuff is not the "higher end" that some of us crave.

My point is that due to the hdmi chips the chasm in sound quality between this and an hdmi equipped 861(if they decide to build one) could be small. Perhaps insignificant if speking of a multichannel only system.

The tact audio does a xillion things in software yet it wll be limited to what the new chip sets provide when dealing with HDMI. These new lossless multichannel audio formats are very tightily controlled . The variants in post processing are icing on the cake but the formats sound great from inception. Perhaps some Valhala shielding will make the difference some audiophiles crave.

While chip sets will or may be the same, it is hardly the ONLY thing that affects the overall sound quality. There is little doubt that the Theta CBIII sounds far better doing DD then the $800 receiver sold at Costco.

Both have the same DD decoder chip and yet they are sonically worlds apart.

Good sound is the culmination of doing all things in the circuit design well and some the best that can be done.

Case in point power supplies. How about shielding and proper grounding techniques. Another area which Theta specializes in is tight timing of the digital signals using highly accurate digital clocks to reduce jitter to extremely low levels. Higher quality DAC's


As I said all of these things add cost and audio performance. These are the very things that are often overlooked in the mainstream companies because they are not taught in schools but are pondered over and tried in small companies by folks who are passionate about good sound. The same is true on the video side.

OK I'll throw down. I've just completed my theatre, Sim2 HT5000 and ISCOIII based with Genelec 3xx series for 7.1 sound. I am waiting for some of the heavy hitters to embrace the new formats before i fully leap in. At the moment I'm using an Arcam AV9 and am finding it fantastic. I feel that i am in no way missing out. I've always had a soft spot for Arcam and use 2 AVR350's on my smaller systems and believe them to be easily the best sounding recievers out there.

That is some serious kit Coldmachine. If I were to get Genelec those would be the speaker to get. I am partial to Dynaudio ans sort of keep score as to how many new installations that otherwise would be Genelec are ending up going to Dynaudio acoustics. But again the 3xxx series seems a tour de force.

HDMI 1.3a has built in jitter servo synchronisation. Personally I think Theta is bit overrated. As well as a whole slew of little tinkerer companies.

Meridian does wonders with dolby digital in the software domain, yet even though they invented MLP, integral part of DOLBY TRUE HD, they will not be able to do Dolby True HD in software fashion.

My first class a integrated amp in college was from Denon, together with a pair of Kef 105.4's that system rocked. I am extremely confident that the level of performance of the new Denon Pre and Amp combo will exceed the demanding sensitivities of all but the most extreme 2 channel audiophiles.

In a way it is paradygm shift piece that wholly embraces the brave new multichannel, multimedia world.

Cinermax,
thank you for the compliment. I can truthfully say that i have NEVER experineced sound like this in my life. The genelecs are capable of truly incredible sound whilst outputting SPLs that are beyond the pain barrier. At the moment the Arcam AV9 in in no way a weak link at all. The purity and accuracy are stellar.

A wide room with Genelecs and PLIIx is a different world to me. Rear imaging and localisation are for the first time totally equal to that of the front channels. I am now preaching Genelecs to any hi-end HT owner who will listen.

It is also possible that your constant Sim2 ranting has hastened the opening up of the 5k color management, a Sim engineer i spoke to last week metioned he'd seen your "evangelical" posts on here.