Onkyo TX-SR805 or Emotiva Ultra Theater

[davidscher]

My first thread creation. Here goes. I was looking for a new receiver with pre-outs to power my new Infinity Beta 50s and C360 center and came across the new Onkyo line. First, I was looking at the Onkyo TX-SR605 and even preordered it. I would like to run external amps for the front l/r and center in the future and when I realized the '605 didn't have pre-outs I cancelled the preorder. I am aware of the '805 and the fact that it has pre-outs, but the price is over double the '605. The price range for the '805 is reaching pre/pro & ext. amp combos so I looked into the Emotiva Ultra Theater combo.

My question is what would be the better choice in the long run.

The Onkyo has all the new features that would get me by for some time. It also has HDMI upconversion, which would be a very useful feature for me as I would only have to use 1 cable for my projector. I do like that it has a universal remote included, but it is not essential to me.

The Emotiva Ultra Theater does not have the new audio codecs and autosetup features, but the SQ of these separates is probably considerably better than the Onkyo. There is also the coolness factor of separates and the looks of the Emotiva system are outstanding. I am aware of the 40% off upgrade offer, and assuming I could sell the pre/pro upon upgrading I would want to upgrade as soon as possible.

Currently I think I should go with the Onkyo because it would be easier to setup and would probably provide me with wanted features into the future. Also, I believe that since I plan on using higher powered external amps for the front l/r and center in the future, the pre/pro & amplifier setup will probably not be as beneficial to me.

Maybe there is another receiver or pre/pro that does everything that I want it to. I am stuck on what to do so somebody help me please!!

[larryfdx]

If you order the Ultra-Lite Combo now, you get a 40% discount on the new version that'll have all of the new codecs when it comes out at the end of the year/early next year.

[davidscher]

I saw that deal. I heard that Emotiva had delays on their past models. Do you think that they will with the new models and that it's worth the wait?

[Megamorph]

Nice thread. I'm also considering the 805 or the Emotiva combo.

[Filthy McNasty]

Maybe there is another receiver or pre/pro that does everything that I want it to. I am stuck on what to do so somebody help me please!!

I would wait and checkout the Sherwood Newcastle R972 when it comes out. More connection options and a far better amp section than the Onkyo offers. The question that can only be answered by listening to the R972 when it is released is "how good is the preprocessor section?"

[HarBlar]

I have the Onkyo 804 running the same speakers...

I'm also using the preouts attached to an Emotiva LPA-1 amp. I'd originally bought the 804 and was experiencing some clipping when attempting to drive a set of primus speakers. Due to unplanned flood damage on some of the primus speakers, I upgraded to the Betas... Since I had the Clipping prob with the primus at high volumes, I also bought the lpa to give the beta's plenty of headroom. The power, volume, and clarity of my system improved by an order of magnitude. I was watching the incredibles last night and was picking up details and one liners I'd never heard before. For instance, the scene when he's at work in the insurance office... You can hear the buzz of the fluorescent lights... and that's just on dobly digital... I'd love to hear it in some form of DTS or Lossless HD audio! :D

Anyway... If I had it to do over again, I'd go with a straight Emotiva Combo over the onkyo. For the most part I've been happy with the Onkyo, what when you compare the power of the two to the Price, the Separate's are a no brainer. I'd buy the LMC-1 right now, but I've spent enough money upgrading recently and the 804 works great as a pre. Plus the LMC (while apparently sounding great) seems to have a number of software bugs and does HDMI switching through a separate box. I think I'm going to wait for the LMC-2, which is suppose to have built in HDMI 1.3 and should be pretty much bug free.

You also can't go wrong with Emotiva's customer support. I haven't had occasion to call them yet myself, but I've read a lot of positive things on that end. To me, Knowing the manufacturer is going to back me up if anything ever goes wrong makes it even more worth it.

All in all, If you don't plan on running your system very loud (-20db or higher) the 805 should work just fine and sound great. Me... I like to run around -10db or better depending on the source and couldn't be happier with the LPA. Hope this helps with your decision making. ;)

[csig]

I would wait and checkout the Sherwood Newcastle R972 when it comes out. More connection options and a far better amp section than the Onkyo offers. The question that can only be answered by listening to the R972 when it is released is "how good is the preprocessor section?"


What's your basis for saying the Sherwood will have a superior amp section to the 805? I would agree that the Sherwood will likely be better than past Onkyo offerings, but the 805 is new from the ground up -- 50lbs, high current, excellent specs. I have owned high-end Sherwood receivers in the past and think they're excellent but the new Onkyo products from the 805 up look particularly strong.

[davidscher]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I was worried nobody would reply with anything to help me out.

The Sherwood looks like it will be a little out of my price range, but it does look like a very nice receiver. Also, it isn't rated for as much power as the Onkyo or the Emotiva combo.

The Onkyo '804 (105 watts/ch.) is not rated for as much power/channel as the '805 (130 watts/ch.). Whether or not this means the '805 is as good as the Emotiva Ultra Theater amp is the real question though. If the '805 is pretty close, then I think it is the better deal because it comes with most of the next gen. features, where as the current Emotiva Ultra Theater combo does not. I am going to Circuit City today to demo the '805, but I won't be able to compare to anything other than what they offer there. I probably will not buy it from them however, because they will not price match online dealers.

Maybe I should just wait for the Onkyo '705 and save some money for external amps (I've been looking at Crown pro-amps). It just needs to have pre-outs. I have noticed the Onkyo '674, the model the '705 seems to be replacing, does not have pre-outs to my knowledge. Does anyone know if the '705 will not have pre-outs as well?

I've also been considering just waiting for the new Emotiva LMC-2, but the price increase will probably put it out of my price range a little. I'm really frustrated because I keep going back and forth between which setup would be better. Either way, it should be much better than my current setup. :D

[vvv]

I have a similar issue.

I am considering the new Onkyo Integra DTC 9.8 preamp (Basically a Onkyo 905 without amp and balanced inputs) to run with Emotiva MPS-1 or IPS-1.

I have a B&K 307 today and am trying to improve the sound quality. Can anyone tell me if they think this is an upgrade?

I am also having trouble finding many reviews or references to the Emotiva IPS-1...anyone have experience?

[bootman_head_fi]

I am also having trouble finding many reviews or references to the Emotiva IPS-1...anyone have experience?

Audioholics has a review of the IPS-1.

[vvv]

Boothead,

Thanks for the response!

[bry]

just wondering how the demo went david as i am comparing the 2 as well. Especially how the power seemed as i'll be pushing gallo reference 3.1.

[bootman_head_fi]

Boothead,

Thanks for the response!

NP. I would have posted a link but I need a few more posts. :)

[davidscher]

I went to look at the '805 at CC that a salesman I talked to on the phone told me they had. When I got there however, they only had a '804 with a price tag on top for the '805. I was quite angry, needless to say, and left promptly. Maybe this is false advertisement. Oh well, I am very close to ordering one anyway, but they seem to be out of stock at the online store I was looking to purchase one from. The next gen features that the Onkyo offers seem to put it ahead for me. If I have to wait too long maybe I'll just buy the Ultra Theater haha.

[davidscher]

Bad news for me making a decision. I found that the first two offerings from the Integra receiver line are due out in a couple of weeks. From the pictures I have looked at, the cousin to the '605 has pre-outs and remote trigger outputs. The MSRP is also $300 less than the Onkyo '805. Since this would work with external amps, I am considering looking into this more. Maybe some of you would like to look into these if you have not already. I most likely will not need most of the added features, but it is another option.

[Southern Spy]

What's your basis for saying the Sherwood will have a superior amp section to the 805?

Typically, Asian designs offer more bells and whistles; whereas British and North American designs offer more robust amplifier designs and power supplies.

If you look at the receiver specs of Arcam, Cambridge Audio, NAD, Rotel and Sherwood Newcastle; you will see designs capable of adequately powering 4 ohm speakers (and the less than 3 ohm dips of electrostatics for example).

On Asian designs, you don't usually see the doubling of output current in 4 vs 8 ohms - even if they are 4 ohm capable. The other tipoff in their specs is they typically state 2 channel output/channel to different standards vs multichannel output.

For example they will state 2 channel output as X watts/channel at Y % distortion from A to B Hz whereas the multichannel output is defined as Z watts/channel at C% distortion measured at one frequency only. This is to maximize this number (ie get it as close to 100 watts/channel as possible - the number the marketing department wants)

[Megamorph]

David, have you made a decision yet? I need to order something in the next day or two and I can't decide if I want the 805 or the Emotiva Ultra combo.

[csig]

Typically, Asian designs offer more bells and whistles; whereas British and North American designs offer more robust amplifier designs and power supplies.

If you look at the receiver specs of Arcam, Cambridge Audio, NAD, Rotel and Sherwood Newcastle; you will see designs capable of adequately powering 4 ohm speakers (and the less than 3 ohm dips of electrostatics for example).

On Asian designs, you don't usually see the doubling of output current in 4 vs 8 ohms - even if they are 4 ohm capable. The other tipoff in their specs is they typically state 2 channel output/channel to different standards vs multichannel output.

For example they will state 2 channel output as X watts/channel at Y % distortion from A to B Hz whereas the multichannel output is defined as Z watts/channel at C% distortion measured at one frequency only. This is to maximize this number (ie get it as close to 100 watts/channel as possible - the number the marketing department wants)

I understand that and agree with your general observations. I have owned many of the brands you list above -- but my question was related to the Onkyo 805. Looks robust, doesn't it? And it appears to be a departure from the typical "Asian designs" you note above. The 805 is THX Ultra2 certified and will drive a 4 ohm load.

[davidscher]

If you drive 6 or 7 channels using one device, an external amp should definitely be better. In my case, however, I plan on using external amps for the front l/r and center in the near future, so for me the Emotiva's larger power supply will not matter as much. This added to the fact that the Onkyo is still rated for 130 watts/chan. means that it should be enough to power all the surrounds and pre/pro for the other channels.

I did order the '805 last night. JR was out of stock and on the phone said they will be for probably another 2 weeks or so. I saw that CC has it on sale so I used an ebay coupon for 10% off and chose the 7 dollar 3 day shipping. The total after tax was 50 more than JR, but I will get it Thursday. :D If they stock the '805 at your local CC, then you can save a few dollars and get it right away. Thanks everyone for your help, hopefully the '805 will do well for me and it should be a major upgrade from my Denon 1804 that has been great. Emotiva may still be in my future, but the features they offer are just not what I want at this time. I will look forward to reading about the LMC-2 though!!

[krholmberg]

Sherwood Newcasle is made in Korea... isn't it?

[vvv]

With the return policy in place at Emotiva and CC, you could always order the Emotiva AMP and run a comparison with 805 as a preamp? This does not adress your pre amp problem but it would put the amp question to rest.

[fresno1232001]

I too am considering the upgrades to the Emotiva MMC-1 pre pro (the MMC-2) and the IPS-1 amp, coming in Jan. 2008, but versus the Onkyo TX-NR905. RE prices, just consider how long you will have it. Divide the extra cost by # of years you'll have it and then ask yourself if you can afford that much per year. I am as torn as you are on Emotiva v. Onkyo. Onkyo will have all the new audio codecs, HDMI 1.3, and the best video scaler on the planet on the top two models. I have suggested to Emotiva that they consider putting that scaler in the new pre-pro. Also, with Onkyo, the LFE bug should not be a problem. Emotiva says its easy to deal with and that their equipment does deal with it. The Onkyo TX-NR 905 (and ONLY that one in this series) receiver has one massive toroidal transformer but the Emotiva amps have a separate toroidal transformer for each of seven channels! The NR905 Onkyo will have list of $2099. The new Emotiva amp and pre-amp I'm considering might cost $2,500 as a package. I've been living happily with a big Tandberg 2075 stereo receiver since 1976. A receiver seems like a nice "buttoned-up" solution and Onkyo won't go out of business in the next 5 years. I believe that Emotiva is a relatively young company and I'll bet that Onkyo's annual revenues are 100X that of Emotiva. Yet, Standard Oil, Bank of America, General Motors Corporation, J.C. Penney and Walmart all started on a specific date as tiny entities. If you are a well-run company who provides a good or a service at great prices, see what can happen. Emotiva is an American company and I like to buy American. Ten years from now they may have driven Onkyo right off the playing field. People seem delighted with their Emotiva purchases, and so I may very well buy Emotiva. Toyota and Hyundae have taken market share in the U.S. from my company, General Motors, and GM is not allowed to sell in Japan or Korea. I'll remember that when I make my choice.

[QUOTE=

I've also been considering just waiting for the new Emotiva LMC-2, but the price increase will probably put it out of my price range a little. I'm really frustrated because I keep going back and forth between which setup would be better. Either way, it should be much better than my current setup. :D[/QUOTE]

[Filthy McNasty]

And it appears to be a departure from the typical "Asian designs" you note above. The 805 is THX Ultra2 certified and will drive a 4 ohm load.

Did you read the spec sheet?

130 W + 130 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05% THD, 2 channels driven, FTC)

But then the mumbo jumbo starts:
1) No 4 ohm FTC rating with 2 channels driven
2) Every FTC rating in multichannel mode is measured at 1 frequency only
3) Dynamic ratings with only 1 channel driven
4) Then they make the statement that 8 Ohm Dynamic power with 1 channel driven is equal to the FTC rating with 2 channels driven (150 watts)

What kind of drivel is this? The logical conclusion is that they have made the Dynamic power rating = to the FTC rating.

Let's see some real RMS ratings: 8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05% THD and 4 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05% THD all channels driven

[Southern Spy]

Did you read the spec sheet?

Exactly what I was referring to. The Dynamic power = FTC power rating must be an error.

This thread is typical of Brand A Receiver vs Brand B separates threads. I can tell without listening to this unit that it will sound very good in 2 channel bypass mode on all speakers except electrostatics.

However, in multichannel mode it will lack the "oomph" and dynamics heard in 2 channel operation. Many will be tempted to buy a robust 2 channel amp to run the front speakers. Then 1 will have spent more than the price of an Arcam AVR350. There is nothing to suggest that this unit will compete head on with Arcam for sound quality.

[davidscher]

To me, features are quite important. After buying a couple of amps to go along with the Onkyo, I will have spent considerably more than the price of just the Emotiva Ultra Theater but I will have the new codecs that it can do as well as 3 HDMI 1.3 inputs and an HDMI output that everything is upconverted to. This is a very big plus for me because now I only have to run one cable to my projector. I guess for the extra features, the extra cost is justified to me. My main question originally was whether or not the Onkyo using extra amps would be close to sound quality of the Emotiva combo. I think that extra amps could be used with the Emotiva combo, but they may not help much because the amp in the Emotiva combo is so strong.

[Filthy McNasty]

T My main question originally was whether or not the Onkyo using extra amps would be close to sound quality of the Emotiva combo.

So your question is:
" Will the prepro portion of the Onkyo receiver sound as good as the Emotiva prepro?"

This can only be answered in a direct comparison between the 2 with all other components being the same.

[fresno1232001]

Bear in mind that in Jan. 2008 Emotiva will introduce a new pre-pro, the MMC-2, the successor to the current MMC-1. It will have new features, I believe including Dolby True HD and DTS HD Master Audio codecs and HDMI 1.3. It will probably go for ~$1200. At the same time they may introduce an update to the current matching amp, the current IPS-1. Together those may go for ~$2500.

[QUOTE=davidscher]To me, features are quite important. After buying a couple of amps to go along with the Onkyo, I will have spent considerably more than the price of just the Emotiva Ultra Theater but I will have the new codecs that it can do as well as 3 HDMI 1.3 inputs and an HDMI output that everything is upconverted to. This is a very big plus for me because now I only have to run one cable to my projector. I guess for the extra features, the extra cost is justified to me.

[csig]

[QUOTE=Filthy McNasty]Did you read the spec sheet?

130 W + 130 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz–20 kHz, 0.05% THD, 2 channels driven, FTC)

Umm, yeah, I did. Still not clear on what basis you have to say the Sherwood Newcastle will be clearly superior to the 805. Care to comment on that?

I'll be interested to see how the amp section in the 805 tests out. I'm not willing to jump to conclusions based on generalizations about past Onkyo products or other "Asian designs."

[csig]

Exactly what I was referring to. The Dynamic power = FTC power rating must be an error.

This thread is typical of Brand A Receiver vs Brand B separates threads. I can tell without listening to this unit that it will sound very good in 2 channel bypass mode on all speakers except electrostatics.

However, in multichannel mode it will lack the "oomph" and dynamics heard in 2 channel operation. Many will be tempted to buy a robust 2 channel amp to run the front speakers. Then 1 will have spent more than the price of an Arcam AVR350. There is nothing to suggest that this unit will compete head on with Arcam for sound quality.

I don't know whether the Onkyo 805 will be better than the Arcam or not -- seems that the Onkyo 905 would be a more reasonable comparison given the prices involved. I know the Arcam is reputed to be an excellent unit. You realize that Arcam publishes the following specs for the 350, right?

CONTINUOUS POWER OUTPUT (4 OR 8Ω) ANY 2 CHANNELS DRIVEN 120W (20HZ – 20KHZ @ 0.2% THD) ALL 7 CHANNELS DRIVEN 100W (1KHZ @ 0.2% THD) THD AT 80% RATED POWER OUTPUT 0.02% (AT 1KHZ)

Just trying to keep it real -- don't mean to derail the thread. And I have no doubt that a separate amp will generally give more "oomph" than a receiver -- just not convinced that the amp sections on comparative Arcam, NAD, Cambridge, Sherwood are automatically going to be better/more robust than the new Onkyos (805 and above). Again, it will be interesting to see some bench tests on these new units. Maybe they won't put out their rated wattage with all channels driven -- but surely that 50+ pound weight and new amp design is meant to do something.

[neekos]

I too am considering the upgrades to the Emotiva MMC-1 pre pro (the MMC-2) and the IPS-1 amp, coming in Jan. 2008, but versus the Onkyo TX-NR905. RE prices, just consider how long you will have it. Divide the extra cost by # of years you'll have it and then ask yourself if you can afford that much per year. I am as torn as you are on Emotiva v. Onkyo. Onkyo will have all the new audio codecs, HDMI 1.3, and the best video scaler on the planet on the top two models. I have suggested to Emotiva that they consider putting that scaler in the new pre-pro. Also, with Onkyo, the LFE bug should not be a problem. Emotiva says its easy to deal with and that their equipment does deal with it. The Onkyo TX-NR 905 (and ONLY that one in this series) receiver has one massive toroidal transformer but the Emotiva amps have a separate toroidal transformer for each of seven channels! The NR905 Onkyo will have list of $2099. The new Emotiva amp and pre-amp I'm considering might cost $2,500 as a package. I've been living happily with a big Tandberg 2075 stereo receiver since 1976. A receiver seems like a nice "buttoned-up" solution and Onkyo won't go out of business in the next 5 years. I believe that Emotiva is a relatively young company and I'll bet that Onkyo's annual revenues are 100X that of Emotiva. Yet, Standard Oil, Bank of America, General Motors Corporation, J.C. Penney and Walmart all started on a specific date as tiny entities. If you are a well-run company who provides a good or a service at great prices, see what can happen. Emotiva is an American company and I like to buy American. Ten years from now they may have driven Onkyo right off the playing field. People seem delighted with their Emotiva purchases, and so I may very well buy Emotiva. Toyota and Hyundae have taken market share in the U.S. from my company, General Motors, and GM is not allowed to sell in Japan or Korea. I'll remember that when I make my choice.


Dude !
You get a medal for the man who can hold out the longest !!

[CemiB24]

Initially I was also considering the Emotiva pre-pro. But now I am more interested in the Outlaw 990 because its more afordable. I already have one Crown XLS602D and was planning on buying the 990 with two more XLS202D.

Last week I saw the Onkyo 805 and it got my attention with all its features and THX Ultra2 certification. But my brother told me that it has a very low damping factor (60) and I decided to stay away from it.

With regard to the weight, my last receiver was 50 pounds too and sounded terrible. So, thats not really an indication of SQ, its just a hint, at best.

[Theophile]

The Emotiva Ultra Theater does not have the new audio codecs and autosetup features, but the SQ of these separates is probably considerably better than the Onkyo. There is also the coolness factor of separates and the looks of the Emotiva system are outstanding. I am aware of the 40% off upgrade offer, and assuming I could sell the pre/pro upon upgrading I would want to upgrade as soon as possible.

David,

I am a new owner of the Emo UT Series pre\pro\amp and can concur with your upbeat findings!! However, if you want a 7.1 SS system, maybe the 805 would be the way to go. The LPA-1 does not have "7" equal channels of output (back surrounds have about 1\2 the power, for a 2nd room zone out). If that isn't a problem, then I'm confident you'd be amazed at the amount of overall dynamic and clean power this amp can output into a 5.1 SSS!! If you intend to stay with a 5.1 SS system, then the LPA-1, for the $$$, is an outstanding choice!!

It appears you've already read of it's sonic virtues (there are many), but the overall match with the current LMC-1 has brought more 3-D realism to my HT audio than I could have imagined. I get double takes and wow's from friends-neighbors-SHMBO from the immediate sonic improvments I gained over a Sony receiver (model right below their ES series)!! Don't fret, the 40% discount upgrade to the LMC-2 (w\1.3 HDMI upconversion and the codecs you want) would price out near equal with a sale of the LMC-1. Then you'll have the power, control and excellent sound...all for a very reasonable price!

Then again, I've been called a fanboy....but, this is My story...sticking to it!!!

Hope any of this helps...good luck with your decision! ;)

Ted

p.s.- Yes, it Does Look COOL:

http://aycu29.webshots.com/image/17228/2002696096000641102_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002696096000641102)
http://aycu35.webshots.com/image/18994/2002661905232497644_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002661905232497644)

[csig]

That's some nice looking equipment, Ted. What kind of speakers are you driving?Thanks for sharing.

[csig]

With regard to the weight, my last receiver was 50 pounds too and sounded terrible. So, thats not really an indication of SQ, its just a hint, at best.

Agreed -- weight is not everything but is usually a sign of a robust power supply suitable for driving difficult loads. Much is determined by what kind of speakers are being used and under what conditions. My Dynaudios did better with separate amplification than with a receiver (and the receiver was a NAD 763).

[Theophile]

That's some nice looking equipment, Ted. What kind of speakers are you driving?Thanks for sharing.

Thanks CSIG! My home came with an Acoustimas 15 Series II 5.1 system installed...I've been putting up with it for the past few years while studying the HT HD market!

My HT progression over the past 6 months:

Samsung 1080P 67" DLP,
Toshiba A2 HD-DVD,
Axiom EP500 Sub,
Emotiva UTS Separates!
MP HTS 3600 MKII A\C Conditioner


Actually, all are listed in my profile. :)

Now (or in the near future), I'm leaning towards the Axiom Epic 80 HT setup 5.2 (adding another Axiom EP 500)!!! However, have to convince SHMBO that we really NEED this final addition! A problem because she's Happy with what we have and says it Already plays "Way To Loud" for her taste (It Is Very Dynamic and Clean). You see, I like to watch HD movies at realistic theater environment listening levels (Kong, U-571, WOW, Hulk and Phantom are Killers):D... so I've a big task ahead if I want the Axioms!!! ;)

How have You handled this delicate situation!!? :confused:

Ted

P.S. Here's my humbled HT Setup in a 7K cf "great room":
http://aycu15.webshots.com/image/18294/2002680102191003291_rs.jpg

[vvv]

Theo,

Axiom is good stuff but perhaps you can woo the wife with some of the Onix X series

http://www.av123.com/products_category_brand.php?section=speakers&brand=55

I encourage you to log onto their forum found on the AV123 site to see some of the new finishes they offer. I have heard these speakers and they sounded great. The build quality is unbelievable. They were also written up in the newest issue of Home Theater Magazine. They got a 96 out of 100.

[CemiB24]

Agreed -- weight is not everything but is usually a sign of a robust power supply suitable for driving difficult loads. Much is determined by what kind of speakers are being used and under what conditions. My Dynaudios did better with separate amplification than with a receiver (and the receiver was a NAD 763).

lol... I was refering to the same receiver!!! I used to have an old Sony ES receiver that played very well with my B&W Matrix speakers. But then I changed to a NAD 763 and it was so much worst that I could not believe it. The NAD was supposed to be so much better with difficult speakers (30 pounds vs 50 pounds and all that hype).

I took the 763 back to the dealer and there it played very well with some cheap PSB speakers. So yes, it is determined by what kind of speakers are being used.

With the Crown, the B&W's came back from the death.

[fresno1232001]

I just bought a pair of B and W CDM 9NT speakers on Ebay for $1,975 to use as rear surrounds, so I am weakening. If you heard how that Tandberg sounds thru the $5,300 Allison One speakers I bought at the same time (for $720 a pair) you'd know why I have been able to hold out so long.
Dude !
You get a medal for the man who can hold out the longest !!

[neekos]

I just bought a pair of B and W CDM 9NT speakers on Ebay for $1,975 to use as rear surrounds, so I am weakening. If you heard how that Tandberg sounds thru the $5,300 Allison One speakers I bought at the same time (for $720 a pair) you'd know why I have been able to hold out so long.


I don't doubt it. They made some excellent equipment..."back in the day" :)

[csig]

P.S. Here's my humbled HT Setup in a 7K cf "great room":
http://aycu15.webshots.com/image/18294/2002680102191003291_rs.jpg

Very nice, Ted. I bet the Emotiva gear would really light up the Axioms if you get them... good luck to you on that front.

[riggs]

Great thread and I am another one in the same dilemma - can't decide between the Onkyo 805 and the emotiva LMC-1/LPA-1 combo. They are essentially the same price point but seem to have different strengths and as a newcomer I am torn as to which would be best for me and was hoping to get some feedback.

Onkyo Pros
- HDMI 1.3 - Essentially connectivity for my PS3 and HD-DVD players which are my only video sources (No Cable).
- Lossless/ HD audio.
- Audessy setup - being new to this, it seems that this could do a better job of setting up my speakers than I can.
- Could use as a prepro if I decide I need more power

Emotiva Pros
- Power to drive my first set of real speakers (Monitor Audio GR20, GR center, BR FX surrounds) which I am told require a "high current" amplifier.
- Simplicity
- Can upgrade to the LMC-2 with 40% discount later.

So I guess it comes down to sound (I don't care about video scaling as my sources will be primarily HD/ Blu Ray to my 1080p XBR) and if the advantages of Lossless audio trump the power of the LPA-1.

Any thoughts? What have you guys ended up with?

Thanks!

[davidscher]

Riggs,
I ended up buying the Onkyo '805 and looking back I am not sure I made the best purchase. I think the only reason to go with the Onkyo is if you NEED to have one HDMI connection or the OSD on HDMI. I think this is the only reason because although I liked it, I believe I could have done without the Audessy setup. I've even read that some people think it degrades their sound quality. Also the faroudja de-interlacing chip in the Onkyo seems to do a bad job for me and the Onkyo has trouble passing certain signals. I've had trouble getting 480p signals to go through correctly when using my component video switcher, but as soon as I take the Onkyo out of the equation it works fine. Combine all this with the upgrade deal offered by Emotiva and I would recommend the Emotiva. Now I have never used the Emotiva so this opinion is fully based on higher expectations from it than my experience with the Onkyo.

Hope I helped some...

[riggs]

David, thanks for the feedback - it is the first hand experience that really helps people like myself figure these things out. The only reason I was wanting to get the HDMI was to get the benifits of HD/ Lossless audio - but I am uncertain if that is really worth it or not, or if overall I would benifit more from the power of seperates. It doesn't seem good that the scaler is stepping on your component 480p, but at the same time for myself my 2 video sources would be HDMI (I don't have cable), but I can always take these straight to the TV and skip the receiver.
It is good to hear that not everyone thinks that Audessy is the end all and be all... nice tool I'm sure, but maybe I will learn more about all of this if I set it up myself.
Overall, what do you think of the sound quality you are getting from the Onkyo?
I know for me, no matter what I buy, I will probably still wonder if I bought the right thing... I'm always second guessing myself and in this case it seems to be a bit of apples and oranges.

[davidscher]

Riggs,
No problem. Honestly, I can tell a little difference with HD lossless audio, (I have Infinity Beta 50 speakers) but I think that you can wait for it until the LMC-2. Even with my fairly good speakers I think that in movies it's not all that great. I'm not aware of any HD-DVDs or Blurays released that are music only, but I would be more worried about lossless audio if they were around.
From what I've read about the Audessy, you can do just about the same thing with a decibel meter from radio shack. The only thing you would be missing is equalization and timing, which are what people were complaining about the Audessy doing. Overall I did think the Audessy helped me, but I'm no tuning expert. It also was very easy to run and I read that you have to have absolutely no noise in the house. I turned off all of my computers, my TV, the furnace, my refrigerators, and anything else I thought might make noise. The sound quality from the Onkyo is outstanding compared to my old Denon receiver, but mainly because it is much more powerful. I've read that it is very powerful for a receiver, but probably still not quite like separates. I'm also using an external amp for the front mains, which offloads some of the power supply's draw so that it can be used for the center and surrounds.
If you have any other questions I would be happy to answer.

[riggs]

So... went to bed thinking Onkyo... woke up thinking Emotiva... arrrgggg

Do I need to be concerned how close the amp is to my LCD TV? I'm thinking I'm leaning towards the Emotiva, but am now considering the logistics of that big amp... does anyone know how warm it gets?

Thanks again!

[davidscher]

So... went to bed thinking Onkyo... woke up thinking Emotiva... arrrgggg

Haha. I went back and forth just the same. Either one you choose I think you'll be happy, but that still doesn't help you decide.

[mrrame]

Quick question on 40% discount. If I get LMC1/LPA1 and few years from now, upgrade to next generation pre-pro, I get 40%off of MSRP or 40%off of then selling/sale price ?

Also, If I decided to get MMC2/IPS2 instead of LMC2/LPA2, Do I still get 40% off or it applies only for LMC2/LPA2

Thanks

[apenn]

Quick question on 40% discount. If I get LMC1/LPA1 and few years from now, upgrade to next generation pre-pro, I get 40%off of MSRP or 40%off of then selling/sale price ?

Also, If I decided to get MMC2/IPS2 instead of LMC2/LPA2, Do I still get 40% off or it applies only for LMC2/LPA2

Thanks
I'm in a similar fix - Emotiva or Integra/Onkyo at the moment.

From what I'd read at Emotiva's site the 40% discount applies to processors and receivers only. Amps are not included. I could be mistaken of course.

I don't recall seeing if the discount was on the MSRP or the actual sale price - that'd be a good one to know.

[Southern Spy]

Let me make it very easy:

The decision is straight forward - get the separates.

This amp is incredible value and should last you for decades and decades REGARDLESS of future new formats etc. The prepro is not of the same calibre as the amp. But at this time, the choice of prepros that give good SQ + support all new formats is sparse.

Down the road this will change of course; so to upgrade all one has to do is change prepro (+ you have used prepro to sell)

Even today, one can match up a Arcam or Sunfire prepro for example with the Emotiva amp and get better SQ than any Onkyo/Integra product at any price.

[93'till]

Great thread - the one that made me sign up and stop lurking.

I am faced with the exact same choice, except I am also considering the Azur 540R (Version 3) from Cambridge audio.

Little history : This will be my first HT set-up as I have always been a 2 channel guy, but since I just bougt an 60a2020 sony tv - it's time.

I am using my speakers from my stereo setup as my mains: B&W DM603 S3's and an older B&W CC6 center I just picked up. I don't even have rears or a sub yet, but they will be B&W too.

I have an old (late 70's) kenwood integrated amp with seperate power supplies that looks and sounds great - I have always disliked commercial recievers, but the weight of the 805 intrigues me.

So finally, my question: Between the above 3 choices which one would offer the best 2 channel musical performance whilst still providing good HT? Since I am replacing my 2 channel system (for now) music reproduction is my top concern.

I think its between the emo and the CA. The CA is really light though - should this concern me? The B&W's are pretty sensitive speakers mind you.

Does anyone know how much an emo ends up shipped to the door in Canada (taxes, duties etc)?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Kevin

[VAiryche]

Wow- this is exactly the dilemma I face. I can't decide between the Emotiva and the Cambridge (I was looking at version 2 though). I am driving my wife crazy. Paralysis by analysis.

[93'till]

Why would you look at v2 over v3? Just curious, I have a lot to learn about HT.

[VAiryche]

Price. For $300.00 how much more do you get? That being said, tomorrow I might change my mind and get Version 3. It's tough paying for a product that you haven't auditioned with your speakers. I can get the pre/pro for the same amount as version 3. That might get me a lot more bang for the buck.

[m@rkus]

Since you are looking at the Cambridge Audio 540R receivers in comparison to the Emotiva entry level separates, let me suggest you also consider the Emotiva DMR-1 receiver.

I have owned the Cambridge Audio 540R on three separate occasions now and feel it is a terrific little performer for the price. I still use a V2 model in my second system and am very happy with it. That said, the Emotiva DMR-1 is in an entirely different league to the CA 540R, not to mention Emotiva's own LPA-1 / LMC-1 combo.

The DMR-1 is the same processor as Emotiva's top tier DMC-1 plus it also has 7 channels of digital amplification that has been carefully voiced to best mimic the sound attributes of Emotiva's own LPA-1 amp. Think of this beast as being a marriage of Emotiva's DMC-1 pre pro with their LPA-1 amp. Better yet, think of this beast as being very similar to Sunfire's own Ultimate Receiver II which costs thousands more for virtually the same product. Movie and especially 2 channel music performance is quite a few leagues ahead of the Cambridge gear and in my opinion, ahead of most mass market receivers to begin with.

As I said - I really like the CA 540R and think it is great for the money but the Emotiva DMR-1 is a phenominal piece that is being blown out now for a ridiculous price as it has ended it's production run (all subsequent development and production is being geared towards Emotiva's new line of amps, speakers and pre pros).

[mrrame]

40%off applies to preamps only and you must be the original owner. If you get it used, you only get warranties transferred not the discount.

[riggs]

Wow- this is exactly the dilemma I face. I can't decide between the Emotiva and the Cambridge (I was looking at version 2 though). I am driving my wife crazy. Paralysis by analysis.

LOL - My wife asked if there are any support group threads for the wives of audio obsessed husbands.... So I was getting no-where myself and let her make the decision. Joined the Emotiva family this morning, my Ultra Combo should be shipping Monday or Tuesday... can't wait! The speakers arrived yesterday and while they are beautiful to look at, not being able to hear them is driving me nuts.

For me, in the long run, regardless of the product, it feels good buying from the little guy who is fighting the giants - and with the 40% off on next generation pre-amps I'm feeling really good about the decision.

Of course, if I feel differently once it arrives I can always blame the wife.

[Kex]

LOL - My wife asked if there are any support group threads for the wives of audio obsessed husbands.... So I was getting no-where myself and let her make the decision. Joined the Emotiva family this morning, my Ultra Combo should be shipping Monday or Tuesday... can't wait! The speakers arrived yesterday and while they are beautiful to look at, not being able to hear them is driving me nuts.

For me, in the long run, regardless of the product, it feels good buying from the little guy who is fighting the giants - and with the 40% off on next generation pre-amps I'm feeling really good about the decision.

Of course, if I feel differently once it arrives I can always blame the wife.
Your wife should be in contact with my poor wife! She is similarly supportive (I think and/or hope!). I ordered my combo 12/03, but it will also ship on Monday: I think this is a new shipment arriving, so my order was delayed. I hope nothing else comes up to delay it any further.

[nostatic13]

However, have to convince SHMBO that we really NEED this final addition!

How have You handled this delicate situation!!? :confused:

Ted


divorce worked quite well for me

[nostatic13]

I had a 605, took it back and was considering CA 540R v3 and Emotiva. I went with the CA due to the smaller size and the seemingly fairly common reports of issues with the Emotiva preamp.

My solution for 2-channel is simple. The CA has the ability to send the L/R preamp signal out to another amp while using the internal amps to power the center and surround. This way you can get a dedicated stereo amp (buy used...damn cheap) for higher current 2-channel use, and also have the 5.1 stuff covered as well.

As it stands now the receiver on its own drives my mains just fine. It reminds me a lot of my older NAD receivers wrt tone and bounce. The Emotiva stuff does look "cooler" though, but I frankly prefer as understated a look as possible.

http://nostatic.com/photos/ht.jpg

http://nostatic.com/photos/dana660-3sm.jpg

[Kex]

I had a 605, took it back and was considering CA 540R v3 and Emotiva. I went with the CA due to the smaller size and the seemingly fairly common reports of issues with the Emotiva preamp.
...
As it stands now the receiver on its own drives my mains just fine. It reminds me a lot of my older NAD receivers wrt tone and bounce. The Emotiva stuff does look "cooler" though, but I frankly prefer as understated a look as possible.
These are the kind of comparisons that are really useful IMO. I also hesitated a while between a NAD receiver and Emotiva. In the end, I got Emotiva, but I still wonder how NAD true power would have compared to entry level amplifier power such as the Emotiva LPA-1 (the NAD would have been used, so cheaper than Emotiva). The reviews for both are outstanding, but there are no owners I have found that had been using amps and then exchanged them for a receiver such as NAD to compare directly.

I also prefer the understated look of NAD and Cambridge (which your pic shows well). I'm hoping I don't find that the Emotiva looks cool, but tacky when I get it!

[rdperry]

I had the NAD 752 and 753 and they were the best sounding recievers I have heard but the outlaw 970/7125 combo which I had was a large step up in dynamics and overall sq in my system. I am hoping that the emotiva ultra system is close to the outlaw setup despite being half the price.

[Kex]

I had the NAD 752 and 753 and they were the best sounding recievers I have heard but the outlaw 970/7125 combo which I had was a large step up in dynamics and overall sq in my system. I am hoping that the emotiva ultra system is close to the outlaw setup despite being half the price.
Your comments to that effect, which I read elsewhere, as well as those from another guy from Club Polk, were the most influential in convincing me the Emotiva combo should not be a mistake. I am looking forward to reading your impressions compared to the Outlaw combo.

(How did an "e" replace an "o" in "Combo" in the title of this post?!)

[rdperry]

Thats great to hear. I am glad that some of the stuff that I have been able to share has helped some folks with their decison of moving to seperates. To me the best investment long term in HT is a quality amp. This will bring a improvment to your system that will last for years. Then when the new generation surround modes via hdmi are a little less "buggy" just add a reciever with pre-outs and you not only have the new lossless audio decoding but you also have it with plenty of all channels driven power that most recievers just cant match.

[riggs]

My system is finally together, and all I can say is that Monitor Audio and Emotiva make a beautiful pair - I have been told that the speakers need about 100hrs of break in, but it is hard to believe they will actually improve!

My Ultra combo is a thing of beauty - I had been concerned about it looking a bit too techy-chic, but in person it is wonderfully understated and feels as solid as rock. I owe a big thanks to all of you in these forums who pointed me towards seperates and Emotiva, as the sound I am getting out of the box is sensational and I haven't even begun to do a proper setup. Right now I just can't get over how good my two front speakers sound on their own.... just waiting for the neighbors to pay me a visit and tell me to turn it down.

I'll keep you updated as I get into the setup - right now my PS3 HDMI is hooked up straight to the TV with the optical to the LMC-1, so I need to get a cable for video from the LMC to the TV just so I can access the onscreen menu. Trying to setup the unit without the OSM is way too confusing for me.

[djaser]

riggs,
congrats on the new system, I have been following the Emo threads for a while now and ordered my ultra combo yesterday. Positive news is always reassuring, the more I read, the more I second guess myself.

[Robert Whitehead]

I emailed Emotiva asking which HDMI version it used and never rec'd a response.

[m@rkus]

Robert - I believe it has been confirmed to be HDMI 1.3

[bis]

ordered mine day before yesterday,it shipped yesterday and should be here mon.I can't wait and I can't even begin to tell you how hard it was for me to make a choice.I've been reading and reading all over the web and finally decided to go with the ultra.Stepping up from an older denon 1803 which does a decent job with my Klipsch ref rb81 system.I really hope to see a difference.Now if I can just get that tc2000 sub finished.Thanks to everyone on this and other forums for the great post.

[djaser]

bis, have you recieved any confirmation or tracking number? I spoke to Dan @ Emo on the 26th and was told it would ship 27th, but have received no confirmation and have not been charged yet. According to the site, the LMC is sold out as of today. Guess I'll have to wait until monday and see if someone answers the phone. There were only 17 Ultra's left when I placed my order. Getting worried.