Hey guys, I was hoping someone could help me out with a basic question. Right now I have analog Comcast cable and 2 S2 Tivo's. For the most part I'm satisfied with them as I always have my recordings waiting for me, I never have issues with the Tivo's and I get to transfer video files both to and from my pc which is nice for downloaded content and archiving. However, I can't help but notice how bad the picture quality on my Sony 53" rptv is while running the Tivo. If I switch to a direct input, the pq is 50x better. I've thought about grabbing an S3, but I'm not dropping that kind of coin. So I've been thinking about switching over to Fios and using their 6416 DVR's instead. I hear the pq is spectacular, and I will get more channels for less money than what I'm paying Comcast for basic cable. Thing only thing that really has me concerned is the horror stories I hear from Tivo people who say the Motorola boxes are junk. They talk about missed recordings for no reason, constant reboots, slow interface, complicated menus and common hdd failures. Is it really that bad? I understand Tivo has the menu thing down to a science. I can navigate mine with my eyes closed, and more importantly, my wife can use it with no issues. But is that 6416 THAT bad? Will I regret switching? Those Tivo guys have a tendency to act as if they found the Holy Grail, so I'm looking for a more unbiased opinion. Can anyone help me out here? TIA!

I've had more missed recordings on the TiVo Series 3 DVR than on the Comcast Motorola 3416 or the 3412 I had before that. I cannot remember the last time I had a missed recording on the Motorola boxes. The TiVo is unquestionable a superior piece of hardware, and has far more user-friendly, smart and feature-packed software, but the Motorola boxes aren't as junky as lots of people would like you to believe.

Give the 6416 a week or so and if you hate it get the tivo3 (no upfront cost for the 6416). You can also check out VOD with the 6416 (something you cannot do with the tivo3).

The 6416 has 2 tuners, is fast and reliable and has an excellent search engine including an actor and keyword search. It also has a faster guide and sets up recordings faster than tivo software. The 6416 also allows users to watch their program in a small window while surfing guides etc. The 6416 also allows much quicker access to your "favorites" guide. Lastly, there is no need to connect a phone or ethernet cable as programming, software updates and purchases of pay-per-view are all handled over a single coax cable.

On the downside, the 6416 does not allow file transfers from your pc. It also does not have dual tuner buffering/swap feature so to swap between 2 live shows you will have to record both. The 6416 also has a smaller hdd (160gb v 250gb on the tivo3).

There is a new interface coming to the 6416 this summer that may correct the missing features. Details here:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/22/verizon-launching-fios-interactive-media-guide/

If the few things the 6416 can't do is worth $700 then get the tivo3. I personnally could not justify the expense.

Thanks guys! I have to admit that I will miss the pc connection feature since I download a lot of content that I transfer through Tivo. But I believe that for a lot less than the $600, or whatever the S3 is going for now, I can find some piece of hardware that will do that for me. I also don't have a DT, so the lack of dual buffer shouldn't bother me too much as I'm not used to it. The new interface you linked me to looks really nice too. Hearing that they are reliable and not nearly as bad as the Tivoites want me to believe is really good news. I mean I really love my Tivo's...been a user for about 4 years now, but I'm not going to dish out that kind of money if I can get the same basic functions for the same monthly fee.

Oh, I did have one other thing I was curious about, well two actually. That link mentioned that Fios DVR prices were going up. Is that true? And is that for existing customers or just new ones? And lastly, if a newer and better DVR comes out in the future, can you just upgrade to that through Verizon? I've never had any type of box from a provider, so I don't know how they work it.

Thanks again.

Oh, I did have one other thing I was curious about, well two actually. That link mentioned that Fios DVR prices were going up. Is that true? And is that for existing customers or just new ones? And lastly, if a newer and better DVR comes out in the future, can you just upgrade to that through Verizon? I've never had any type of box from a provider, so I don't know how they work it.

Thanks again.

Price for the dvr is going up from $12.99 to $15.99 per month on July 13 but will only affect new customers from that date forward. If you lock in now you should stay at $12.99.

If a better dvr becomes available I would imagine that you could trade in the moto for it.

I know that motorola has launched a cablecard HD DVR to be sold at the retail level that is supposed to compete with the tivo3 and there is the sony dhg hd dvr already out there. I imagine more cablecard ready hd dvrs will be coming which should increase functionality while lowering prices...hopefully.

Give the 6416 a week or so and if you hate it get the tivo3 ... On the downside, the 6416 does not allow file transfers from your pc.Just to be clear -- neither does the TiVo S3 (at least not yet, and there is no guarantee it ever will).

If the few things the 6416 can't do is worth $700 then get the tivo3. I personnally could not justify the expense.Effectively, the price is $400 these days (until Father's Day). I personally couldn't justify the expense either, at $800 or $700 or $600 or even $500.

... there is the sony dhg hd dvr already out there. The Sony DHG-HDD500 has been discontinued:

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=11041189

On closer examination of the fios2 guide, it appears that file transfers from pc will be possible. Pretty cool if true.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/ip-telephony/?p=1707

Thanks a ton guys. I appreciate all the info and haven't seen anyone come in here screaming about what a pile of junk the 6416 is, so I think I'm going to make the switch. I wonder if I could even just keep the Tivo's hooked up without the sub for transferring my files? That would be an awesome way to deal with the issue. And like mentioned earlier, if I absolutely just can't deal with the 6416, I could always downgrade to a cheaper box and buy an S3. Although I'm waaaay too cheap to see that happening. :)

You can't legally transfer anything out of TIVO anyway, so I don't think you should be mentioning this in this forum in the first place.

You can't legally transfer anything out of TIVO anyway, so I don't think you should be mentioning this in this forum in the first place.

Huh? Tivo-to-go software is directly from Tivo and designed for two things. Transferring recorded shows to a pc or a mobile device and transferring recordings from your pc to the Tivo. Tivo's website even gives details on what specs the video files need to be. Sharing recordings with someone else is illegal, but I never said anything about that.

How the Motorola boxes perform is based mainly on which software your cable company uses in your particular area. Passport has been poor for me, although many say that it works great.

At only $400 the S3 is more than worth it. Of course, I thought it was worth it at $600 after the 3416 having an unspecified "recording error" causing me to miss shows fairly regularly. I found the 160GB hard disk much, much more irritating, though. The 500GB I put in my S3 is still smaller than I would like, but isn't awful.

If I were starting from scratch today, I'd get an S3 with the Father's Day rebate and then buy a 500GB eSATA drive and use it with the TiVo to get 750GB of storage. I suppose that if I could be bothered to watch all the shows on the TiVo I could put the original 250GB back in the S3 and buy an eSATA enclosure for the 500GB I bought, but I'm far too lazy for that.

I found the 160GB hard disk much, much more irritating, though.
Ah, see, if you were using a real DVR with firewire out, then hard disk size wouldn't be a problem. I have a 80gb AVHDD that I regularly move to D-VHS and/or PC without any problems - but with your great TIVO you're stuck with whatever data you got, you can either watch it or delete it.

With the 6416, can you move the shows to a pc for storage? I didn't think that was possible. If so, that would be great.

I have to look at the S3 features, or more so the lack of features compared to the S2. I know there's things it can't do, I just never cared since I wouldn't spend the money.

Can someone explain to me how to get an S3 for $400? Even with the fathers day special it comes up as $599.

I can't believe you're getting suckered into buying a DRM-filled door-stop. :)

Haha. I'm not getting suckered into anything. I simply thought as an educated buyer I would at least compare the S3 heads up to the Verizon box figuring the price was getting closer to reasonable and it would keep my wife happy with her easy to use Tivo setup. But since the price is still $600 unless you buy a $200 gift certificate (WTF kinda deal is that???), I'm not even comparing. Add in there that neither seem able to directly transfer files to/from a pc, that leaves the only true difference to me is the HDD size. So I'm going to try out the 6416 and see how it goes. If the space isn't enough, I'll start looking into some type of archive option. There has to be some way to get these files to a pc. I see you mention it along with D-VHS. I'll have to start searching the forums to find out what that setup is. No sucka here. lol :D

Can someone explain to me how to get an S3 for $400? Even with the fathers day special it comes up as $599.



Good deal at amazon.com. $406 after rebate and in stock.

Can someone explain to me how to get an S3 for $400? Even with the fathers day special it comes up as $599.
Buy it from store.tivocommunity.com for $599. Send in the $200 MIR, and you have a $400 TiVo. Of course, you still have to pay for service, but how you do that is entirely up to you. I have lifetime on an S2, so it's only $6.95/mo on a 3 year commitment.

If TiVo ceases to exist, I don't care, since they're getting it from me monthly, rather than in one up front chunk that would cost more per month anyway.

BTW, timecop, eSATA works on the S3 now, although it's not officially supported. Sort of like the SA boxes that have it. ;) With a 500GB or 750GB eSATA drive, there wouldn't really be a need to delete anything. I hardly have to think about space with only 500GB total.

And the cable company boxes are just as DRM filled. It's just that the FCC requires that they let you have the data over firewire, at least for some set of the stations. I did that with my 3416 for a while, but having to mess with it got old. The TiVo just works. I hope that in the next few months they'll get TTG, or better yet, MRV working. Cable Labs hasn't been very nice to them, though. Lucky for Motorola and SA they don't have to deal with CL at all.

I knew TTG wasn't working, but MRV isn't either? How much does a complete archive setup like the D-VHS run? Just wondering how that compares to the cost of an esata drive. Guess I'll be up late tonight making a pro's/con's list. lol

Oh, I already have 2 S2's. Can I just buy an S3 and swap it into my existing monthly fee's? Ah, these questions are most likely answered on the Tivo forum already.

The TiVo is waaaay better. However, the S3 has one glaring omission that makes it VERY undesirable for many of us--no firewire port. No firewire port means no way to archive HD conent. I could not live without this. I've got 100+ movies I love in HD many of which are not yet available on HD DVD or BD. I could not live without this.

I have no idea what TiVo was thinking when they did not add a firewire port in.

How much does a complete archive setup like the D-VHS run


PlanA:
1) D-VHS JVC30/40K = ~$200-400 used
Pros: Cheap
Cons: Analog video output only, "unreliable" deck (claimed by others, I've had no problems)

PlanB:
1) Samsung SIR-T165 = ~$200 used
2) Mitsu HS-1100U/HS-2000U = ~$100 new
Pros: Digital (DVI +HDCP) video out
Cons: Might be fussy with copy-protection due to failure firmware on T165, requires 2 pieces of equipment

PlanC:
1) JVC-5U = ~$500+ new
Pros: HDMI out, supposedly "reliable" tape mechanism
Cons: Price

"Reliability" part is pretty vague, some people claim their 30K breaks next day while others had years of trouble-free service. You can also combine some of these, such as JVC5U for HDMI out and using Mitsu deck for playback via firewire - anyway, that should give you some idea.

Oh, and another option if you have a TV with firewire, then you only need the cheap mitsu deck

Thanks timecop. Really appreciate all the help and info. I must say though that those prices do sorta make the S3/eSATA combo closer in price than I thought. I guess these setups are apples to apples. So the research goes on.:)

Well, after staying up too late and reading more info than I needed to know, I'm definitely NOT buying an S3. I'd end up paying a lot of money upfront plus locking myself into a 3 year contract to get a good monthly fee for nothing more than a DVR with eSATA support. There's no MRV, no TTG, no CC 2.0 support and no VOD. I'm sure there's other things I'm missing, but these are the important ones. There's a new S3 lite coming out later this year and a new ruling about set-top boxes after July 17. There's just way too much going on right now to dump a very large amount of money into something that's not really fully functional. My biggest concern right now is the reliability of FiOs TV. There seems to be dozen of threads about pq degradation, loss of audio/video, complete dropouts, etc... I'm not a giant fan of my overpriced Comcast cable, but it's VERY rare that I have any issues with the signal. Maybe I'll just hold off until the end of the year to see if things get straightened out. If it wasn't for the fact that I have to sign a 1 year contract with Verizon I'd love to try it out, but I just can't decide on what to do. Hmm, wonder if that price increase on the 14th is due to the new regulations on the 17th?

I think a lot of your logic is good -- but I think some of your assumptions are off, and some of your conclusions don't follow from the facts, at least in the manner I perceive them. First, the TiVo Series 3 is fully functionality. It does everything it is supposed to. There are bad units, just like there are with any mass-marketed consumer product, but if you get one of the vast majority of good units, then the S3 does what it should. Second, I also wouldn't "dump a very large amount of money" into the S3, which is why I waited until I could get one for about $400 after rebate. That's not a lot of money for a first-class high-definition, 2x3-tuner DVR with a 250 GB hard drive. Don't expect to find a comparable unit new for much less than that any time this year, and surely don't expect any of these units to do some of the tricks you expect the S3 to do, like MRV and TTG... it's just not reasonable to expect that.

Whether the expense is worth it or not is a personal decision. The point is that the product is fully functional, and is relative inexpensive compare to what is reasonable to expect.

Being an owner and fan of Tivo, I understand where you're coming from, but the S3 is NOT fully functional like the hardcore Tivoites continue to claim. Due to CableLabs the S3 will not perform functions that were originally listed and are functional on the $50 S2 units. If I could do MRV and TTG I could overlook the other shortcomings, but it doesn't...atleast not yet according to Tivo which means that it's not fully functional. Yes, it records HD and has a large HDD. But the 6416 also records HD and it can also do VOD. So the only feature that the S3 offers me and my needs today is expandable storage space and a familiar interface. Does that justify a $400 premium? I honestly don't believe it does. Ofcourse I could use the 6416 for 2 weeks and change my mind, but I am finding it hard to believe it's as bad as some want us to believe. I also don't believe that this is a once in a lifetime chance at getting the S3 at this price. Fact is electronics get cheaper over time, and the S3 can be picked up for literally half of it's original price after less than 1 full year of it's release. I highly doubt the price is going to go back up as there will be another rebate for some reason I'm sure. And lastly, looking from a unbiased opinion, I believe the S3 is already nearly outdated due to changing regulations. So I can either pay $400 ($600 upfront) for an S3, $300 for a 3 year service contract and $250 for a media device that will allow me to play pc files on my tv since the S3 is not fully functional, OR I can go with a simple monthly fee for the 6416 and buy the same media device for $250. I think right now I'm going to save my $700 and see what the S3 lite has to offer and hope that Tivo comes out with an updated S3 that solves it's shortcomings.

This might not be everyone's opinion, but based upon MY needs, there are glaring issues with the current S3 which doesn't come close to justifying it's premium price.

Due to CableLabs the S3 will not perform functions that were originally listed and are functional on the $50 S2 units.They're S2 units, not S3 units.

The S3 is a fully functional HD DVR. It doesn't support features it doesn't support. (My niece would say, "Duh".) It does what it is supposed to. That is the definition of "fully functional".

It doesn't do MRV or TTG -- neither does any other HD DVR. Those are not features of HD DVRs. It just isn't. Someday that may change.

It doesn't do VOD. It isn't supposed to, even though other HD DVRs do. Again, it doesn't support features it doesn't support. That doesn't mean it doesn't do what it is supposed to -- it just means that it doesn't do things it isn't supposed to. (Again, my niece would chime in here.)

It may or may not satisfy your specific needs, or meet your specific criteria of value. At anything over $400 it didn't meet mine, either. However, that wasn't because the machine wasn't fully functional -- it was because it wasn't worth the price. Big difference.

Not looking to get into an argument here, but being a current Tivo owner and a computer geek I spent a bit of time on the Tivo forum when the S3 was released as it was something I was interested in. At the time of the release, the S3 listed the mentioned missing features. Infact, there were many threads about angry owners who didn't understand why they didn't have those features working. It's also a known fact that the software supports those features but they are turned off for legal reasons. So even though the current S3 page doesn't list those features, they are supposed to be there. To me, that's not a fully functional product. I do understand what you are saying, but I don't think you are listening to my point.

No, I'm listening, but rejecting your point; perhaps you're not listening to my point. The device is fully functional. That's my point.

Ofcourse I could use the 6416 for 2 weeks and change my mind, but I am finding it hard to believe it's as bad as some want us to believe.

Oh, it is as bad as they say. But, you'll get used to it. It is clumsy to use and will only mess up a few recordings per year, but you can learn to live with it.

But, 1.5 years later I still get the question from my wife every couple of months (when frustrated with the POS QIP6416/Verizon SW), "Why is it again that we can't have TiVo back?"

lol Sounds great! I've pretty much decided to make the switch to FiOS and go with 2 6416's. I'm gonna hope that the new update I've seen will be released in the near future and solve most of the issues I've read about. If not, I'll just deal with it until a more affordable Tivo hits the shelves. I just wish you could transfer between 6416's. Seems odd it only works with that little unit.

What new update?

I just wish you could transfer between 6416's.

I use D-VHS to accomplish this. :)

What new update?

They are beta testing new software now to replace the POS thrown together crap written quickly in the U.S. and India that we are using now.

New Interactive Media Guide (http://www.verizonfios.com/img/)

Ahh, another D-VHS user. I really need to start researching these.

I was in the same situation, except with Charter and their SA 8000HD DVR. I believe it was running the SARA software. All I know is that after a week we had to get rid of that POS. Missed shows, clumsy interface, it ran as hot as a furnace...the list goes on and on. Even my wife was begging to go back to TiVo. Knowing all of the issues surrounding the S3, I still had to take the plunge ($400 after rebate).

I miss TTG, as I still have a S2 upstairs and would love to be able to transfer between the two. Also, as a current customer (Topshelf147), you would qualify for a multi-subscriber discount (MSD) which gets you a $6.95 monthly rate with no contract required.

Charter just stuck me with a 6416, replacing my MOXI which I have had since rollout, they replaced it cause I had bad pixelation (+35db snr) and now guess what, same crap w/my 6416....is directv any worse?

I have to say guys, that after a few weeks with the 6416, I don't know what all the drama is about. Sure, it's not as polished as Tivo is, but it does everything a DVR is supposed to do. First off without having to dish out $300+ I get a perfect picture on my TV. It also records schedule programs like it's supposed to and gives me VOD which I never had and really like. Honestly you guys had me thinking I was walking into a nightmare. :rolleyes:

I have to say guys, that after a few weeks with the 6416, I don't know what all the drama is about. Sure, it's not as polished as Tivo is, but it does everything a DVR is supposed to do. First off without having to dish out $300+ I get a perfect picture on my TV. It also records schedule programs like it's supposed to and gives me VOD which I never had and really like. Honestly you guys had me thinking I was walking into a nightmare. :rolleyes:I guess you don't record anything off USA or SciFi? :) Verizon has had issues with the guide information on those channels for some time. They expect to resolve the issue in a month or two, but until then, it's more troublesome to record shows like The 4400, Psych, or Eureka.

The FiOS DVR also re-records content you watch and delete, although that isn't a significant issue if you primarily watch content from the major networks, which rarely rebroadcast the same content in a given week or month. It doesn't keep track of the programs you record and delete, like Tivo does for the past 28 days.

I've run into the same issues on some shows, but with the dual tuner it's not really an issue. Most shows air the same time every week, so just set it up for that time slot. But I do agree that they need to resolve the guide data issue. Tivo was about 99% with that. But, it appears they are making strides so I've gonna give them some time. ;)

You're correct. There's often an awful lot of "drama" with very little cause, 'round here.