Can someone explain why that thread was closed? I can find no other thread addressing the legality of importing/exporting HD DVD, so it isn't a duplication. The warning on the film explicitly states that a film can't be sold outside the European Union without special permission.

This topic was a discussion of that disclaimer. No one violated any forum rules in the thread. Yet the thread was closed. What kind of censorship is AVS Forum moderators practicing?

Looks like the thread was nipped in the bud within an hour.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=859715

update: Link included so that everyone can see that no rules were violated and that it isn't a duplicate thread. I can find no other threads discussing the disclaimer included on HD DVD's from the EU.

In Australia the law about this is as grey as it gets...

Basically as long as the Copyright holder is the same in both countries then it is 100% fine.

However if the Copyright holder is different in the country from which it came then you may be infringing the Copyright of the local owner.

In Australia the law about this is as grey as it gets...

Basically as long as the Copyright holder is the same in both countries then it is 100% fine.

However if the Copyright holder is different in the country from which it came then you may be infringing the Copyright of the local owner.

Something like that may apply to the Prestige. It was a Disney movie, that was distributed by Warner in the UK. So Disney is likely the copyright holder, but Warner must hold some copyright or license to be able to distribute in the EU.

In the UK we are allowed to import movies from other countries for watching ourselves, but UK retailers are not allowed to sell imports.

To comment on the wide use of region free players in most of Europe.

I live in Vancouver, work for Costco and when I worked in the Richmond location (a heavily Asian populated city), we sold cheap @ss DVD players that came with a "cheat code" to turn the player into an ALL-REGION DVD player. Why? because we had such a huge demand from the Asian community for a DVD player that could play discs from various countries, etc. So, Costco went ahead and basically told the companies of these el cheapo DVD players that "whoever gives us the codes to turn your DVD player region free, we will reward you by purchasing a crap load of players". Now talk about "grey area". So Electrohome, Lite-On and Sanyo filled the bill, essentially taking on the risk of handing over the service menu code for selling a lot of product.

Thankfully I don't work in Richmond anymore.

-Murray

In the UK we are allowed to import movies from other countries for watching ourselves, but UK retailers are not allowed to sell imports.
In Canada it's perfectly legal for stores to sell imports. For instance, I saw La Haine on HD DVD at my local HMV.

The main drawback is the cost. It was cheaper for me to order it from Amazon.co.uk.

In the US major companies like tower records have made millions advertising and selling imports. The fact is unless a product is from a banned supplier or a banned product itself we have little to no rules regarding the purchasing of imported products.

Think about it though how right is it to determine that anyone one person can't by products from any legit company. I honestly don't care what multi million dollar deal Disney worked out with Warner, if I want to buy products from Warner no matter where in the world its from I should be able to buy from Warner.

Region coding did nothing but preserve these agreements and its wrong to consumers because it doesn't allow us the option of price shopping. In china they flood the markets with $2 movies to fight off pirating (this unlike the US is where most of the thievery goes on) region coding just prevents us from importing the Chinese version, and you would think if they were losing money in china selling discs at $2 bucks they just wouldn't sell there.

The only way importation of HD DVDs would be illegal is if you import it from Cuba. ;)

I think the reason why the first thread was closed is because it has to do with supporting "illegal" behavior which the forum rules prohibit. If, indeed, it is illegal to export HD DVD out of the intended country, and forum members are supporting the illegal behavior and promoting retailers that do it, then it becomes something that can be censored under forum rules.

However, as is pointed out, whether it is actually "illegal" to export such HD DVDs is certainly questionable and debatable and, in my opinion, a valid discussion.

I think the Adam Sandler comment killed it. :D

I think the reason why the first thread was closed is because it has to do with supporting "illegal" behavior which the forum rules prohibit. If, indeed, it is illegal to export HD DVD out of the intended country, and forum members are supporting the illegal behavior and promoting retailers that do it, then it becomes something that can be censored under forum rules.

However, as is pointed out, whether it is actually "illegal" to export such HD DVDs is certainly questionable and debatable and, in my opinion, a valid discussion.

If that is the case, shouldn't every import thread be locked. Also, shouldn't every "Xploited have blank in stock" thread be locked.

It appeared to me that it was locked by an overly pro-HD DVD mod who might be afraid any discussion of this type might get to the bottom of whether it is legal or illegal to actually import these discs from the EU. If it is indeed illegal, it would be something of a blow to HD DVD.

Now, the EU disclaimer is not on the outside of the box, with the standard copyright warning. It is only included in the film, so someone with the product would have no way of knowing about this stipulation without watching the film. I'm sure that would hurt Warner's chances of any legal action.

I think I might post a question to Amir in the insiders thread, to get his take, since insiders have always promoted the import of HD DVD's as a positive.

I think the Adam Sandler comment killed it. :D

It was either that or the mere suggestion of ripping the tags off of mattresses. That's just crazy talk! :eek:

My question is how can it be illegal if a a Once Mega huge corporation like Tower Records had areas dedicated to Imports.

If that is the case, shouldn't every import thread be locked. Also, shouldn't every "Xploited have blank in stock" thread be locked.

It appeared to me that it was locked by an overly pro-HD DVD mod who might be afraid any discussion of this type might get to the bottom of whether it is legal or illegal to actually import these discs from the EU. If it is indeed illegal, it would be something of a blow to HD DVD.

Now, the EU disclaimer is not on the outside of the box, with the standard copyright warning. It is only included in the film, so someone with the product would have no way of knowing about this stipulation without watching the film. I'm sure that would hurt Warner's chances of any legal action.

I think I might post a question to Amir in the insiders thread, to get his take, since insiders have always promoted the import of HD DVD's as a positive.


who cares if it is Not Allowed or not. What the hell! do you want to highlight the whole thing so maybe they make it banned around the block to buy them>>?


somethings are just better unsaid.


think on this quote:

"Its only Illegal if you get Caught!"

My question is how can it be illegal if a a Once Mega huge corporation like Tower Records had areas dedicated to Imports.

Well, the disclaimer certainly isn't on import CD's, and there is nothing to watch there that has additional disclaimers. The nearest Tower records mostly had import CD's if I recall correctly. So the disclaimer didn't exist with CD's.

As for DVD's, they were mostly Manga, and were all region discs, so again, if you release all region, you basically want to sell everywhere, so no disclaimer.

For HD DVD though, it is something new. No region codes implemented yet. So maybe a disclaimer like this is needed. Has anyone seen a national chain store selling imported HD DVD's?

Maybe the site has finally taken a stance and is slowly shutting down all HD DVD comment. :-)

Hey, it's a joke guys.

I've seen plenty of those disclaimers on CDs. I've also seen CDs badged not for resale being sold by large legit companies.

Liek i said in the other thread - it's simply there as a stateement to discourage resale otuside of the original region, but legally the studio/distributor can't do jack all about it as once the've sold their goods they are no longer the owners.

Maybe more of a business model thing and nothing to do with legality of importing legally purchased goods from a vendor overseas. As long as you take care of customs, I doubt there is anything anybody can do about it anywhere. Region coding is only to support business models. Otherwise, wouldnt it be illegeal for someone in say germany to purchase and download a movie from movielink or similar companies?

Well, Amir commented on this on the insiders thread, but was a bit vague. Basically, he claims that what he has promoted all along that if someone is Spain needs a player, and can't find one locally, they could by one from the US, since players don't have region coding.

He claims he didn't promote that you could import discs to the US from other countries because of no region coding (I belive he has, but he claims he hasn't so...).

He wouldn't comment on the legality of actually importing discs to the US from other countries. This leads me to believe that places like Amazon UK and Xploited may not actually have permission to do this, which means it may indeed be an illegal trade.

Maybe AVS locked the first thread because it is AVS' official stance that the import of HD DVD's is illegal.

I guess we head further down the rabbit hole...

I was getting all worried about this, and then I remembered that this is just a temporary situation anyway. Once HD DVD crushes Blu-ray, it wont be long until most of these titles will be available locally. :D

It seems to me, logically, if the discs are illegal to import into the U.S. and people who make them cared about it, then they would have incorporated region codes on HD-DVD. If there was region codes on HD-DVD, then you wouldn't be able to play the discs in the U.S. without an altered player. So I think this "illegal" stuff is just a CYA thing.

I had another thought today too. Maybe the studios make one master tape of a movie, and use the same master to encode HD DVD, DVD, and maybe even VHS (if it is still popular in the EU). So the warning may be necessary for the Region 2 DVD, or PAL VHS, but uneccessary for the HD DVD. But the studio doesn't want to eat the cost of making a 2nd master without the warning, so they let it go as is.

I prefer to believe that. :D

So, if I were to move to Spain, France or UK for 6 months for work related issues, and decided to buy an HD DVD movie to watch while there, what I might suppossed to do once it was time for me to comeback to the States?...burn the thing..sell it for a lost (used item)....I don't think so.

By drawing attention to the issue of "importing," you are touching a nerve that the studio's would like to keep on the DL. Remember that, THE STUDIOS DO READ THESE FORUMS. And although it is not a major issue yet, (this is still a niche market) it could be problematic later on, if J6P decides to adopt.

You are only asking for stronger control over region encoding. Please don't ruin it for the rest of us.

Didn't this forum used to be about Science?

So, if I were to move to Spain, France or UK for 6 months for work related issues, and decided to buy an HD DVD movie to watch while there, what I might suppossed to do once it was time for me to comeback to the States?...burn the thing..sell it for a lost (used item)....I don't think so.

I think that would be legal. I just don't think you could sell or trade it once you returned back to the US.

By drawing attention to the issue of "importing," you are touching a nerve that the studio's would like to keep on the DL. Remember that, THE STUDIOS DO READ THESE FORUMS. And although it is not a major issue yet, (this is still a niche market) it could be problematic later on, if J6P decides to adopt.

You are only asking for stronger control over region encoding. Please don't ruin it for the rest of us.

Didn't this forum used to be about Science?


Well, this topic is about protecting to the consumer. Do you want to have a $200 order out for imports with a retailer, only to get a letter from the USPS informing you your shipment was seized because it is contraband. Then have further legal action taken against you. What if such a situation could be avoided if someplace like Amazon UK was authorized to export (where the other retailer wasn't), and you could buy away from them without worrying about that situation? Wouldn't you want to know?

By drawing attention to the issue of "importing," you are touching a nerve that the studio's would like to keep on the DL. Remember that, THE STUDIOS DO READ THESE FORUMS. And although it is not a major issue yet, (this is still a niche market) it could be problematic later on, if J6P decides to adopt.

You are only asking for stronger control over region encoding. Please don't ruin it for the rest of us.

Didn't this forum used to be about Science?

1 post forcing HD-DVD backers to go back to the drawing boards and implement region codes?

You give far too much credit to these forums. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I just checked my e-mails and found this from a friend overseas:

The EU has something called the EU Copyright Directive. They basically pass/enforce Copyright laws in the EU. Per this group:

"The exportation, sale, or trade of DVD's outside of the European Economic Area without the authorization of the copyright holders is forbidden under copyright law."

Now this is for DVD, but I bet the law isn't up-to-date enough to specifiy HD DVD, and they would likely enforce HD DVD the same as DVD. But the statement is roughly the same as the one contained at the end of The Prestige.

The e-mail also explained that the burden of proof that permission has been obtained lies with the exporter. So basically, the end user can't get in trouble for it (they aren't required to know if the exporter has permission or not), but the exporter could. The importer only needs to know if they are violating any laws in their home country.

Finally, the reasoning behind the EU even having this law was expanded a bit. The example is this. Let's say Warner Brothers has a film that they distribute on DVD in the EU. As the copyright holder, the WB should also have the right to control the distribution of this DVD in other areas of the world. However, if exporters just starting shipping discs all over the globe without permission, they are undermining the copyright holders rights to distribute the DVD themselves.

Or to boil it down, if Warner Brothers wanted to release Batman on DVD in the EU in May, and in India in September, and in Africa in December, the EU feels they should have the right to do that. However, if in May, a EU exporter ships 100,000 copies of the DVD to India and Africa, they have undermined Warner Brothers rights. So to export those 100k copies, they would need WB's permission, or face legal action if they didn't have it (the importers in Africa and India did nothing wrong though, and are off the hook).

The law changed about 8-10 years ago here in the UK. I remember having my Directors cut of Natural Born Killers seized for 6 months before finally the law changed and they released it. It used to be that any imported fillm in the UK had to carry BBFC certification, legitimate laserdisc importers would obtain verification from the BBFC that the cut was the same and would add BBFC stickers (If the cut was different they used to avoid importing it). Nowadays "Personal Imports" are only subject to standard decency laws and not the BBFC.

One of the most important factors in the birth of the EU was free trade within the EU. This frequently conflicts with copyright law. A shining example is the grey point over UK satellite TV users buying much cheaper Arab and Albanian satellite TV cards for Sport and Movies. At the moment the law ignores the issue with home users but the FA (British Football Association) prosecutes pubs who use these cards to show 3Pm games which are not permitted on UK TV.

I can not believe how people are so confused about this subject.
There is nothing illegal on this.
The company that is legally able to distribute the product on an specific area is the one that can not sell it in another region of the world.
Once they have sell the procut to a second party , the second party ( Axel Music or Xploited Cinema for example) can sell it in another part of the world.
There are thousands of stores all over the World selling DVD's from the US and Europe. They leave the US ground and they never get detained since there isnothing illegal about it.
The only company that can not sell it in another area is the distributing company.
The disclaimer on the DVD is to complaint with the law, but this law is for the distributing company only.

If I remember correctly the UK version of Harry Potter has an FBI warning at the start. Last I heard the FBI had no jurisdicton in the UK. Well if the disk creators don't know where they are distributing, how will the disk know?

I can not believe how people are so confused about this subject.
There is nothing illegal on this.
The company that is legally able to distribute the product on an specific area is the one that can not sell it in another region of the world.
Once they have sell the procut to a second party , the second party ( Axel Music or Xploited Cinema for example) can sell it in another part of the world.
There are thousands of stores all over the World selling DVD's from the US and Europe. They leave the US ground and they never get detained since there isnothing illegal about it.
The only company that can not sell it in another area is the distributing company.
The disclaimer on the DVD is to complaint with the law, but this law is for the distributing company only.


Calm down. No one's going to report you for your international porn. Not so long as you keep the right people happy... ;)

I just received my hd-dvd newsletter in my email and part of it said,

"Just in case you're not going on a European vacation anytime soon, it's worth nothing that HD DVDs do not support region coding. What's that mean for you? The more than 100 European HD DVD releases will play on the HD DVD hardware you already own. See if you can do that with other high-definition formats. Thanks to the magic of online shopping, you can be enjoying a wider variety of titles than you thought! We expect more than 600 HD DVDs to be available worldwide by the end of this year. "

I don't think you have anything to worry about as far as importing titles is concerned. I guess if Sony wanted to raise a stink about it and they legally could we would hear something from them. After all, they went after another company that was doing something they didn't like that had to do with the playstation brand and shut them down I believe.

I just received my hd-dvd newsletter in my email and part of it said,

"[...]Thanks to the magic of online shopping, you can be enjoying a wider variety of titles than you thought! We expect more than 600 HD DVDs to be available worldwide by the end of this year. "

I don't think you have anything to worry about as far as importing titles is concerned.

Was this the newsletter from http://www.thelookandsoundofperfect.com/?

For a second there I was starting to think I should edit my sig. Seriously.

Hi,

I'm in Spain and thanks to the importing thing I can feel at the same level like you.

I imported a Toshiba A1 in 2006 summer an I have about 40 hd-dvd's thanks to the great prices from amazon and dvdpacific. Here in Spain is perfectly normal to import stuff as an individual. It's not illegal at all.

The only problem could be to pay custom taxes. But at least in Spain if the packet is not very big and the declared value is not to high, we never pay extra...

So I can tell you from the other side of the Ocean that importing is fine, cheap, and great in these new HD times...

Was this the newsletter from http://www.thelookandsoundofperfect.com/?



Yeah, that's the one.

I really don`t know why is somebody so bothered with the possibility of importing hd dvds around the world. the same question can be applied on the blu ray discs that have no region coding. should there start a topic about the legality of importing blu ray region free discs?

Anyone else wondering why the notice was at the END of the film? If it was so important to the studios, shouldn't it have been on the packaging, and right in front of the FBI warning?

So much grey area here, even the studios are sending mixed messages.