John Carmack is showing off id's secret new game engine. The demonstration showcased an "insanely detailed world" made up of 20GB of textures.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=20463&type=mov&pl=game

Looks like Motorstorm. :D

Looks fantastic!

Looks like Motorstorm. :D

Agreed. Sweet demo, can't wait to see some more.

It really looks like MotorStorm indeed.

I wonder if John changed his stance on the highly parallel nature of the PS3. He was previously quoted as saying it's way too parallel for his taste.

20GB for textures? Sony, bring in the dual layer Blu-Ray!

20GB for textures? Sony, bring in the dual layer Blu-Ray!

I agree, use those 50GB disc's! ;)

20GB for textures? Sony, bring in the dual layer Blu-Ray!

nah, go back to DVD's. We don't mind switching discs 1/3 through a lap, right? :p

It really looks like MotorStorm indeed.

I wonder if John changed his stance on the highly parallel nature of the PS3. He was previously quoted as saying it's way too parallel for his taste.

I doubt it, but you have to realize Carmack is the type of guy that can adapt himself to anything as long he puts his mind too it... whether or not he "likes" it though is probably a different story. :)

Dreamaster

Before the "lol's" spews out of control, the 20gb is uncompressed textures. Carmack is all about megatexturing to reduce and compress and you get about a 10:1 ratio with megatextruing meaning that data would fit in around 2gb. Also, uncompressed textures would prove too big to fit in the vram of the RSX.

Info on megatexturing:
"Enemy Territory: QUAKE Wars features a tool suite for creating MegaTextures called MegaGen. Once the Artist or Level Designer has completed the artwork, MegaGen outputs two entirely unique 4GB textures - a diffuse map containing colour data, and a normal map - and then combines them into a single 5GB data file. This data file is then split into unique tiles suitable for streaming, and then compressed to reduce disk space usage.

The resulting unique MegaTexture is around 500MB in size. This represents a reasonable tradeoff between ETQW’s visual quality and disk space usage (maintaining a shippable size for the game)."

This brings to mind the fact that the Xbox 360 currently does not plan to use their HD-DVD addon for games......

Will it?
Can it?

If the Xbox360 never utilizes more than the DVD format can handle, it leaves it at a serious disadvantage down the road...........And even if it somehow can at some point, the fact that the HD-DVD drive is not standard will pose a major problem on marketing said games for the system, unless most of the user base has the add on drive.....Just something to think about...

This brings to mind the fact that the Xbox 360 currently does not plan to use their HD-DVD addon for games......

Will it?
Can it?

If the Xbox360 never utilizes more than the DVD format can handle, it leaves it at a serious disadvantage down the road...........And even if it somehow can at some point, the fact that the HD-DVD drive is not standard will pose a major problem on marketing said games for the system, unless most of the user base has the add on drive.....Just something to think about...


No and No

It has been almost 2 years now what disadvantage? It has been accepted that it uses a DVD drive and that was already accepted by developers when the 360 was announced. So regardless of what we think developers are still making games for the system. Not sure what the concern is.

This brings to mind the fact that the Xbox 360 currently does not plan to use their HD-DVD addon for games......

Will it?
Can it?

If the Xbox360 never utilizes more than the DVD format can handle, it leaves it at a serious disadvantage down the road...........And even if it somehow can at some point, the fact that the HD-DVD drive is not standard will pose a major problem on marketing said games for the system, unless most of the user base has the add on drive.....Just something to think about...

I highly doubt it for both, Splitting the userbase again wouldn't be very beneficial for developers or gamers at this point. Good points though.

This brings to mind the fact that the Xbox 360 currently does not plan to use their HD-DVD addon for games......

Will it?
Can it?

If the Xbox360 never utilizes more than the DVD format can handle, it leaves it at a serious disadvantage down the road...........And even if it somehow can at some point, the fact that the HD-DVD drive is not standard will pose a major problem on marketing said games for the system, unless most of the user base has the add on drive.....Just something to think about...

DVDs will be around for quite a long time to come. The video market is a decade from even starting to fade them out and few PC games games are released even on DVD. as otehrs have said that 20 gigs of textures is uncompressed and extremely ineffiecent it's nice that Id's engine can support textures that large but in the end no developer in their right mind would make a game based on those huges chucks of raw data.
as for teh HD-DVD being used for games I couldn't care less sicne I own the add-on but in reality all you have to do is look at what sega did with teh genesis. Add-ons fracture your user base and ruin developer relations. MS is already working on the next xbox for late 2009/2010 expect a HD format for games around then.

I'm not saying the DVD is going away. I'm not saying that PS3 is outperforming XBOX 360 NOW. I'm saying in 2 years, 3 years when the XBOX has already been maxed out and then some the PS3 could be light years ahead in exclusives that utilize the 50 GB storage capability.......The fact that the XBOX only has DVD and announced no plans for games on the HD-DVD add on is one of the primary reasons I passed over it for the PS3.

DVDs will be around for quite a long time to come. The video market is a decade from even starting to fade them out and few PC games games are released even on DVD. as otehrs have said that 20 gigs of textures is uncompressed and extremely ineffiecent it's nice that Id's engine can support textures that large but in the end no developer in their right mind would make a game based on those huges chucks of raw data.
as for teh HD-DVD being used for games I couldn't care less sicne I own the add-on but in reality all you have to do is look at what sega did with teh genesis. Add-ons fracture your user base and ruin developer relations. MS is already working on the next xbox for late 2009/2010 expect a HD format for games around then.


PCs normally have multiple dvds, of which a lot (if not all) of the data is transferred to the hard drive.

With the 360, devs will either make games on multiple disks or do whatever they can to ensure it fits on one disk. (Compression, less use of CGI, & lower bit rate audio).

And you're right. The hd format wont be used for this generation, but for next. Are you sure about the late 2009 thing? That's assuming the 360 will only have a 4 year cycle. MS is expecting to record it's first profitably quarter this year. They wont be able to recoup the 5 billion of losses by the end of 2009 (IMO). That means they'll probably try and stretch the 360's life span longer.

Looks like Motorstorm. :D



Yeah but only to a man who needs glasses. Those of us who can see knows that's not true.

I'm not saying the DVD is going away. I'm not saying that PS3 is outperforming XBOX 360 NOW. I'm saying in 2 years, 3 years when the XBOX has already been maxed out and then some the PS3 could be light years ahead in exclusives that utilize the 50 GB storage capability.......The fact that the XBOX only has DVD and announced no plans for games on the HD-DVD add on is one of the primary reasons I passed over it for the PS3.


You sure are missing out on all the fun. Just buy them all and pick the best title that is cross-platformed. Can't go wrong there.

PCs normally have multiple dvds, of which a lot (if not all) of the data is transferred to the hard drive.

With the 360, devs will either make games on multiple disks or do whatever they can to ensure it fits on one disk. (Compression, less use of CGI, & lower bit rate audio).

And you're right. The hd format wont be used for this generation, but for next. Are you sure about the late 2009 thing? That's assuming the 360 will only have a 4 year cycle. MS is expecting to record it's first profitably quarter this year. They wont be able to recoup the 5 billion of losses by the end of 2009 (IMO). That means they'll probably try and stretch the 360's life span longer.

Maybe not 2009 MS said that's when we'd first start seeing news of it. They said at the 360 launch that the next one was already ind evlopment and some ideas that weren't practical for 360 would be used in the next generation. I agree with the profitablity projection as well.

I'd be shocked to see a next gen machine before 2011......Also, I think its quite likely the PS3 will use the HD format to its advantage within a few years....

Let hope these next gen games are not limited because the 360 cant handle so much information on one disc as the PS3 can.

I believe there were rumors on a few gaming sites that rockstar was grumbling about having issues developing GTA IV for the 360s with DVD and no harddrive.....

I believe there were rumors on a few gaming sites that rockstar was grumbling about having issues developing GTA IV for the 360s with DVD and no harddrive.....

It wasn't a rumor it was a interview. And he said both platforms had presented problems. He only specifically mentioned the DVD vs Blu ray issue.

I believe there were rumors on a few gaming sites that rockstar was grumbling about having issues developing GTA IV for the 360s with DVD and no harddrive.....

there have been grumblings from quite a few developers. Bottom line is they'll do whatever they can in the limitations provided.

I would doubt that that demo could run on a 360 or PS3. It was probably a DX10 PC.

I love that this demo'd at WWDC, an Apple conference. Long Live the MAC!!!!

I can't watch it at work :( silly Quicktime

I would doubt that that demo could run on a 360 or PS3. It was probably a DX10 PC.

Didn't he say at the start of the video that it was running on a mac? if so that could only mean one thing opengl2.0

This brings to mind the fact that the Xbox 360 currently does not plan to use their HD-DVD addon for games......

Will it?
Can it?

If the Xbox360 never utilizes more than the DVD format can handle, it leaves it at a serious disadvantage down the road...........And even if it somehow can at some point, the fact that the HD-DVD drive is not standard will pose a major problem on marketing said games for the system, unless most of the user base has the add on drive.....Just something to think about...

I guess you didn't read the post above your own speaking about "Mega Textures" and how gigs and gigs of info can fit in a 500 meg space.

Yeah but only to a man who needs glasses. Those of us who can see knows that's not true.

Oh they have glasses alright, Rose colored ones :)

Like Motorstorm ROFLMAO. That looks better than the Motorsorm CGI did!


Its odd that now folks have gone all the way to the MAC platform to take shots at the 360 in the PLAYSTATION forum. Whats next, start a thread on cell phones and slip the 360 in there?

I'm not saying the DVD is going away. I'm not saying that PS3 is outperforming XBOX 360 NOW. I'm saying in 2 years, 3 years when the XBOX has already been maxed out and then some the PS3 could be light years ahead in exclusives that utilize the 50 GB storage capability.......The fact that the XBOX only has DVD and announced no plans for games on the HD-DVD add on is one of the primary reasons I passed over it for the PS3.


In 2 to 3 years, there will be another X-Box released.. You can count on that...

I would doubt that that demo could run on a 360 or PS3. It was probably a DX10 PC.

The consoles are not dependant on Direct X 10 or above. They can be coded to use any form of direct x that comes out. Since the demo was done on a PC with who knows how much ram, it would not be possible on the PS3 or 360 for sure. However since it does look a lot like motorstorm, you have to give that game some credit since it has been around for quite some time..

The consoles are not dependant on Direct X 10 or above. They can be coded to use any form of direct x that comes out. Since the demo was done on a PC with who knows how much ram, it would not be possible on the PS3 or 360 for sure. However since it does look a lot like motorstorm, you have to give that game some credit since it has been around for quite some time..

I'm 100% sure it was run on a Mac meaning opengl2.0 and you have to remember the textures don't have to be stored in RAM, instead they can be streamed off the DVD/Blu-ray with 50GB's thats ALOT of textures

I'm 100% sure it was run on a Mac meaning opengl2.0 and you have to remember the textures don't have to be stored in RAM, instead they can be streamed off the DVD/Blu-ray with 50GB's thats ALOT of textures

Yeah, I read something about "texture streaming" before. I assume that is what is used already with Gears of War and why GOW doesn't have as many maps.. THis does make the case then that having the 50Gb Blu-Ray disc at their disposal would open the doors to better looking games and so forth on the PS3 in the years to come for PS3 exclusive titles that use this feature. I bet Insomniac's next games will feature this since I believe it was them that talked about it in an article I read months ago..

The consoles are not dependant on Direct X 10 or above. They can be coded to use any form of direct x that comes out. Since the demo was done on a PC with who knows how much ram, it would not be possible on the PS3 or 360 for sure. However since it does look a lot like motorstorm, you have to give that game some credit since it has been around for quite some time..Are you 100% sure of this? I thought xbox 360's video chip was only capable of DX9. I know there is currently only 1 PC video chip on the market that can even support DX10, and thats the Nvidia 8800+ series. The cheapest you can get it is about $550-$600, thats significantly more than the Xbox 360 itself. The Ultra version of the 8800 is $700. It's a 384-bit card with 768mb of RAM and 612mhz core clock. Xbox 360's chip I believe is 128-bit with 512mb of shared RAM and 500mhz core clock.

Are you 100% sure of this? I thought xbox 360's video chip was only capable of DX9. I know there is currently only 1 PC video chip on the market that can even support DX10, and thats the Nvidia 8800+ series. The cheapest you can get it is about $550-$600, thats significantly more than the Xbox 360 itself. The Ultra version of the 8800 is $700. It's a 384-bit card with 768mb of RAM and 612mhz core clock. Xbox 360's chip I believe is 128-bit with 512mb of shared RAM and 500mhz core clock.

Doesn't the 2900xt support dx 10. Not sure if it hit the market yet. Think its msrp is $500 or so.

it does look like MOTORSTORM with obviously better graphics but then again if MS was given more time to develop with better use of PS3's hardware...who knows.

Doesn't the 2900xt support dx 10. Not sure if it hit the market yet. Think its msrp is $500 or so.Currently, the only available DX10-capable card is the nVidia 8800 GTX and up. I'm guessing the card you quoted is an ATI card. If it does support DX10, it hasn't hit the market yet. Plus, even that card is more than the Xbox 360 itself. I'm thinkin there's no way the 360's graphics chip will support DX10.

Currently, the only available DX10-capable card is the nVidia 8800 GTX and up. I'm guessing the card you quoted is an ATI card. If it does support DX10, it hasn't hit the market yet. Plus, even that card is more than the Xbox 360 itself. I'm thinkin there's no way the 360's graphics chip will support DX10.


Nope, I just checked. It's on the market. $430. I think the 8800 GTX's specs are better though.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102095

I know my posts are going off topic, but oh well. ;)

Let not this be one of the topics that gonna get closed again. Read the rules, if you don't like
PS3 got back to the forum you like and keep it like that. I am tired of people fighting over who
is better and who is not. It's like the battle of the nerds......

damn they have some ignorant peeps in here.

THIS IS A GRAPHICS ENGINE ANYONE CAN USE TO MAKE GAMES. Like Unreal, Crytek, Havok, RenderWare...

Let not this be one of the topics that gonna get closed again. Read the rules, if you don't like
PS3 got back to the forum you like and keep it like that. I am tired of people fighting over who
is better and who is not. It's like the battle of the nerds......Seriosuly dude, you need to calm down. Its a conversation, not a battle. And apparently your literacy skills are not that high, because this conversation is comparing the Xbox 360's graphics processor to that of a computer.

You want a battle? Here's a battle: Why the hell would you invest nearly $10,000 of your money in message boards?

Seriosuly dude, you need to calm down. Its a conversation, not a battle. And apparently your literacy skills are not that high, because this conversation is comparing the Xbox 360's graphics processor to that of a computer.

You want a battle? Here's a battle: Why the hell would you invest nearly $10,000 of your money in message boards?
If you use your brain maybe something will give you common sense where my money
was spent. I am calm I am just sick and tired of you immature people fogging up this
forum with "Xbox360 Wii PS3 is better BS". This forum is for people to learn and to
discuss, not to argue or debate. If you haven't notice that this forum is completely
different than what AVS forums offers and by replying to you with this just adds it up
so I apologize to the moderator.

If you use your brain maybe something will give you common sense where my money
was spent. I am calm I am just sick and tired of you immature people fogging up this
forum with "Xbox360 Wii PS3 is better BS". This forum is for people to learn and to
discuss, not to argue or debate. If you haven't notice that this forum is completely
different than what AVS forums offers and by replying to you with this just adds it up
so I apologize to the moderator.Right...dude you're weird. There is no argument going on! It's called a conversation. Maybe you could classify it as a debate, but certainly not an argument. Grow up.

20GB to texturize that big ass red thing?