Hi everyone-
I was up until midnight trying to get this all to work. Movies were completely unwatchable to my eyes... I am not passing BTB.
I've tried pretty much every combination of settings on all 4 parts of the chain and must be missing something. Has anyone else has problems here?
I've played with all of the obvious settings on the PS3, 3806, and RS1. The only setting I know of on the Lumagen is the level which I've tried between PC/Video to no avail (I just had the test patterns running in a loop last night while I changed settings) - no dice.

I haven't tried extensive diagnostics, which is on the docket for tonight (basically beginning to remove things from the video chain and seeing where the problem is).
I'm obviously missing something (my thought is on the Lumagen). If anyone can provide some insights that'd be great.

Here are some details:
I've installed 1.8 on the PS3
I've installed the new firmware on the 3806
My RS1 was from the second batch so I think it has the latest firmware, but I don't know.
I'm feeding 1080i60 to the Lumagen. I can only get the PS3 to output 444RGB.
It is running into a 3806 and then onto the Lumagen.

Thanks!

Work backwards in the chain. Set the RS-1 to either PC or Video levels. In the OUTPUT of the Lumagen set it to the same.

Then go into the Lumagen's TPAT (test patterns) and use its contrast patterns to set Brightness/contrast on the RS-1. That will get the Lumagen/JVC basically in sync.

On your source set it to PC/video (keep it all the same if you want) and then set the INPUT on the Lumagen to the same. Now play a test disc on your source and look at a contrast pattern. Now on the INPUT of the Lumagen adjust the INPUT Contrast/brightness on the Lumagen.

Shawn

Are setting your Lumagen test pattern mode to "Do not use input settings" ? If so, do that first and look at contrast pattern 2. Let met know if it looks right. We'll go from there.

Edit: I think Shawn and I were typing at the same time. His principle of working backwards is what I am preparing you for above. By doing this, you determine if the display wants PC or Video levels and where to set the HDMI levels in the RS1. After you have deteremined that and set the RS1 HDMI level, change the TPAT mode to use input settings. You may need to put input contrast at default (124?). Then work backwards as Shawn described. I have only been able to get the PS3 to pass BTB in RGB Full using the Lumagen. But once the above black level calibration is done, it is terrific.

OK-
I'll try this tonight...I think I understand everything you guys are saying.

The RS1 can take both Video or PC...video would be correct right?

The RS1 can take both Video or PC...video would be correct right? I don't think so. You notice in the RS1 manual that Enhanced is described for use with devices with DVI outputs (i.e. PC levels) which I think the test above will reveal the Lumagen is. You may have to go through the entire backwards verification path twice to determine which is working for you. By that I mean select Video on the RS1, then Lumagen output level at Video, put the TPATs mode in "don't use input settings" and look at TPAT Contrast 2. If it is all washed out, then switch to Enhanced and PC. Then work backwards as mentioned earlier.

I believe the combo in my system is Enhanced/PC from Lumagen output on, and Video level on Lumagen input level, and of course RGB Full on PS3. As I remember, if Video (Normal) was set on the RS1 and Video on the Lumagen output, I couldn't achieve BTB. I'll verify tonight.

"which I think the test above will reveal the Lumagen is."

The Lumagen can be set for either PC or Video output levels. Menu->Out->Levl->DVILVL (PC, Video)

Shawn

I believe the combo in my system is Enhanced/PC from Lumagen output on, and Video level on Lumagen input level, and of course RGB Full on PS3. As I remember, if Video (Normal) was set on the RS1 and Video on the Lumagen output, I couldn't achieve BTB. I'll verify tonight. I just verified this. The proper settings are as described in the quote. Here is the logic for that. We must presume that the factory settings for the Lumagen TPAT without input settings are our standard. The other logical presumption is that the correct black level configuration is the one that renders the best results with the default contrast settings of both the RS1 and the Lumagen. The way you verify this is to put the Lumagen TPATs in "do not use input settings" and go to TPAT Contrast 2. If the RS1/Lumagen settings are Enhanced (PC)/Output Level PC, Contrast 2 looks correct. If you change RS1/Lumagen to Standard (Video)/Output Level Video, the black level is way too high, and would require adjustment of the RS1 contrast; not correct. The best result is with RS1 in Enhanced and Lumagen output level at PC.

Now change the TPATs mode to "use input settings," verify input level at Video, and input BLCK at default (128). Start up PS3 and verify in RGB Full. Put SD DVE or Get Gray in the PS3, and navigate to pluge pattern. The Lumagen default BLCK setting should be pretty close. Run it up to verify you can see the BTB bar, then adjust down until correct. My PS3 required a minor higher setting in the input BLCK level. Interestingly, HD-DVD (on the HD side of DVE) black level is dead on with all these settings. So, I have input A as HD-DVD and input B as PS3.

Thanks so much for all of the assistance guys. I'll conduct these experiments as soon as I get home this evening-

For the TPATS - will it be obvious which settings are correct?

For the TPATS - will it be obvious which settings are correct? Yes, but maybe that's easy for me to say. :D On TPAT Contrast 2 you should see just the low level gray step columns, not all the other hubbub that lives below that level (that you see if the black level is jacked up). If you don't see those (just a black screen) then you are crushed. Let us know how it goes.

Absolutely. It was going to be a golf afternoon but we have severe thunderstorms here...so I get to go straight home and work on this...

You guys have been a tremendous help - I can't say thanks enough!

I spent about 2 hours in front of everything today.
I was able to get BTB all the way back to the PS3 but with a different combination of settings...However, when I plugged in all of the settings from Cam Man, it didn't give me the correct output...... ???

The settings that Cam Man had didn't work for me...
I got success with:
RS1 = Standard
Lumagen Out = Video
Lumagen In = Video
PS3 = Full

Why would things be different from when Cam Man has working?

Anyway, I'm now getting BTB. Of course these settings didn't work for the HD-A1...

So, as long as I'm passing BTB...whatever works is ok?

So, as long as I'm passing BTB...whatever works is ok? We can't argure with that. :D That is why I mentioned going through all the possible iterations.

I get BTB in the settings you landed on, but I would have to adjust black levels much lower somewhere along the path . What picture mode are you using with the RS1? I'm not sure what difference, if any, the Denon in the signal path migh have. I have a 4806 in my signal path. Did you have to adjust input black level on the Lumagen or the RS1?

Well - when I had your settings I wasn't able to see BTB by messing with any of the settings - either on the Lumagen or the RS1 - the pattern was totally black.

I turned off "HDMI Conversion" on the Denon - hopefully that means its just passing what it gives. I haven't experimented there.

With these settings its a couple of clicks on the RS1 to get the moving bars to disappear - so nothing drastic. I hope I'm doing everything right.

The Lumagen guys have posted a Tech Tips pdf on the site that goes through proper calibration of black levels as well as how to address over saturation with the current line of units (HDQ included). I've also asked Randy if he can address the RGB level's being set correctly. It seems that every unit has a different name for these settings. It would be nice to get a good diagnostic to figure out which is optimum.

Now if I could only get the HD-A1 to output using the same settings I'd be golden :) (for some reason I can't get the HD-A1 to stay in YCbCr color space).

So I'm still having problems here...any help would be suggested. While I'm not crushing blacks according to my test patterns, my black level is just too high...and...well...unimpressive. My Panasonic 900 had better blacks than I'm seeing.

This is frustrating. When the screen goes black I see nice deep, almost blacked out screen except for my slightly bright corners. As soon as a HD-DVD starts...and I see the HD-DVD logo, I can visibly see the black levels kicked up.

Anyone have any suggestions of where I can go from here?

Anyone have any suggestions of where I can go from here?

If you can't get the A1 to stay in YCbCr, then I would stop trying that. On the Lumagen: return the EDID to the default, set the input type to RGB444, set the level to PC, adjust the black and white levels. That should work.

EDIT: PS - you will not get BTB out of this configuration - such is life.

I can't get the A1 to stay in YCbCr (admittedly I haven't upgraded to the most recent firmware) - its definitely in RGB... I had it at one point, but it stopped going that route when I upgraded the firmware on the 3806 (when I upgrade my video processor to the radiance I'm sure this will no longer be a problem as I'll be bypassing the 3806 in the video chain).
If I set the A1 to RGB expanded won't it pass BTB?

I can't get the A1 to stay in YCbCr (admittedly I haven't upgraded to the most recent firmware) - its definitely in RGB... I had it at one point, but it stopped going that route when I upgraded the firmware on the 3806 (when I upgrade my video processor to the radiance I'm sure this will no longer be a problem as I'll be bypassing the 3806 in the video chain).
If I set the A1 to RGB expanded won't it pass BTB?

When the Toshiba HD players (ALL of them AFAIK) send RGB they also convert the levels from video to PC. This is where the real problem lies from my perspective, not the fact that you cannot get YCbCr out of them, but the levels conversion. Once you convert from video to PC levels, the BTB and WTW are gone, never to be seen again.

My dilemma is this, with my equipment, it is not possible to get the ideal setup out of both the Toshiba and the PS3 at the same time. Examples:

1) PS3 set for video levels, Lumagen PS3 input and output set for video levels - projector adjusted for video levels: PS3 Ideal setup, but the Toshiba will only send PC levels, so you get a double conversion of levels on the Toshiba - once when the Toshiba converts to PC - another when the Lumagen converts it back from PC to Video - BTB/WTW are gone, and you introduce the possibility of banding.

2) PS3 set for PC levels, Lumagen PS3 input set to PC and output set for PC levels - projector adjusted for PC levels: PS3 compromise - video to PC levels conversion, Toshiba converts to PC anyway - compromise

3) misc other random setups - point is - you are stuck on the Toshiba PC levels thing - it is not going away in most cases - hence no ideal configuration - all compromises (On the Gen 1 Toshibas on specific firmware versions, you can get YCbCr out of them when they go directly to the Lumagen - that is the very narrow window that is ideal - I use the XA2 (Gen 2) so I am stuck unless/until toshiba fixes this via firmware).

EDIT: I just realized that there is a way to help this mess - nothing can fix the Toshiba PC levels thing, but I could have two different calibration memories on my projector - One for PC, and one for Video - use the multiple output feature on the Lumagen to run all video levels (input and output) on the PS3, and run all PC levels on the Toshiba - might help...

I have been able to get BTB from my HD-A1...I thought anyway, I could see that bottom bar on Avia.

I have been able to get BTB from my HD-A1...I thought anyway, I could see that bottom bar on Avia.

Avia does not have any BTB tests. They are all video 16 or above. :(

Well, I guess I'm missing the boat totally then. Back to the drawing board.

According to Jim Peterson, if the Lumagen is set to Video Video it should just pass what it gets...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10783272&&#post10783272
Am I not understanding this?

According to Jim Peterson, if the Lumagen is set to Video Video it should just pass what it gets...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10783272&&#post10783272
Am I not understanding this?

You understand it correctly. Lumagen video in + video out = no levels conversions. Lumagen PC in + PC out = no levels conversions. I think I am not completely understanding something about your setup or what you are doing. Please forgive me if this covers things you know or have done, I'm just trying to cover all the bases, hopefully something will stick out here:

1) the Lumagen output level needs to be set to match what the projector is set for (either projector and lumagen set for video levels - or - projector and lumagen set for PC levels)

2) The projector brightness and contrast settings on the projector need to be calibrated by using the Lumagen TPATS.

3) when we talk about levels - there are three devices involved - the source (Toshiba or PS3) - the Lumagen - the projector.

3a) source PS3 - apparently you can control the levels the PS3 sends via the "RGB full and superwhite on" - APPARENTLY this sends VIDEO levels for BR movies.

3b) source Toshiba - sends what it wants to send - usually RGB at PC levels only.

4) for each source the Lumagen input level needs to match what the device is sending - PS3 = video, Toshiba = PC

5) for each source input the (at a minimum) black and white levels need to bet set - that is what you use the avia patterns for.

X) In order to test for BTB/WTW passed from a source, you need a test pattern. Avai will not work - there is no BTB on any Avia test. The two moving bars test (what I use to set black level on the Lumagen for my disk sources) - both of those bars are above black - the one on the left is just a tiny bit above black.

usualsuspects -
Thanks for the great post.

Working backwards from the RS1 to the Lumagen, is there a preference? What "should" the RS1 - Lumagen combination be set at?

Working backwards from the RS1 to the Lumagen, is there a preference? What "should" the RS1 - Lumagen combination be set at?

Not sure there is a "right" answer here. As long as they match - that is the main thing. Just at random - I would try for video to start. You may find that the projector "works better" (gamma issues, controls have more range) at either video - OR - PC levels. Broadest generality - HDMI expects video levels, DVI expects PC levels - this is a massive generalization on my part, but that is usually how it works. Of course that is pretty funny because this whole discussion is about psychotic equipment PC/video level interactions. HDMI input on projector = try video levels first. If you want to see BTB/WTW you MUST send video levels out from the Lumagen. Wanting BTB/WTW is a whole other discussion (it's not clearcut either way).

Thanks guys-
Right now I think I have it working alright, for HD-DVD anyway...I think. Blacks are looking much nicer. Wha'ts interesting is that Avia SD-DVD doesn't give me the best results. I calibrate to the needle pulses pattern (using the input calibration on the lumagen). When I go to HD-DVD material I'm actually losing detail at the levels that the Avia puts me at...and not a little bit - things are quite a bit crushed. I've tried to eye-ball it, but looks like I'm going to need to procure some HD-DVD test discs.
I have the RS1 set to enhanced right now and the lumagen outputting PC. ABout to tacklle the PS3 and see what happens.

So it looks like Cam Man's settings are working for me now. the Lumagen seems to "like" getting Video levels in from the PS3. Given that Avia gave me off calibration numbers for the HD-DVD, I only have to assume it'll be off for the PS3 as well... Looks like I'll need a blu-ray calibration disc as well.

Thanks guys-
Right now I think I have it working alright, for HD-DVD anyway...I think. Blacks are looking much nicer. Wha'ts interesting is that Avia SD-DVD doesn't give me the best results. I calibrate to the needle pulses pattern (using the input calibration on the lumagen). When I go to HD-DVD material I'm actually losing detail at the levels that the Avia puts me at...and not a little bit - things are quite a bit crushed. I've tried to eye-ball it, but looks like I'm going to need to procure some HD-DVD test discs.
I have the RS1 set to enhanced right now and the lumagen outputting PC. ABout to tacklle the PS3 and see what happens.

The "needle pulses" pattern is for the White level - not the Black level. The black level pattern is the all black screen with two moving black bars on the left side (or black on left plus steps on right).

Yeah, got that - my numbers were still off. When I load up HD-DVD's I can clearly see I'm losing detail. Am I the only one who experiences this?

For the PS3 side, i think I'm going to have to start back at the RS1 again - things just didn't look right on the test patterns from Avia. I was, unfortunately, at a wedding out of town this weekend or I would have been able to hammer all of these problems out.

I know I mentioned this in another of your threads, but I'll mentioned it here again. Try not to use "HDMI Enhanced" for the RS1 input. Set the Lumagen to ouput Video levels instead of PC. All of my digital inputs on the Lumagen are configured again for "Video" levels. With this configuration I'm able to use the defaults OOTB settings on the Lumagen and RS1 for IMO perfect images. You can confirm that everything is just by using the built in test patterns on the Lumagen. The test patterns can be configured to use the input settings of the input that you're viewing at the moment. The HDQ manual informs one to use video levels for video devices. Is there a reason why you need to RGB levels instead of Video levels between the HDQ and the RS1?

I've never really understood the "use input settings" tpat's on the lumagen...they always seem wrong to me.

So it appears that there are two conflicting theories here. Let me see if I can summarize them properly.
In Cam Man's original post he has the Lumagen to RS1 configured for PC levels, but input on the Lumagen set to Video for the PS3 (and I presume PC for the toshiba). His rationale is that by doing this you can get the contrast/brightness dialed in on the RS1 with the least amount of manipulation on the RS1's contrast and brightness - side which is more "ideal".
usualsuspects, however, suggests that the better iteration would be to have the output levels match what the input levels are to avoid level conversions.

These two solutions seem to be at odds with one another...

So, is it better to use memories, on both the RS1 side, to set things up for video for the PS3 and PC for the toshiba, leave the RS1 in PC and adjust everything on the lumagen input side?

Follow up question-
I threw Avia into the PS3 last night (set to 480p output by the way - according to Lumagen these are why my contrast/brightness numbers were off - when the DVD's are scaled the lumagen reads to wrong color space) - the PS3 seemed to want PC vs Video input levels for me to see anything in the brightness test patterns. I confirmed RGB to full, superwhite to on. This seems completely contrary to the settings that Cam Man said works for him. Why would that be?
I confirmed this was the case irregardless of whether the RS1/Lumagen was set-up for Video or PC levels.

I re-did my whole Lumagen setup because a firmware update to my HK AVR-745 now allows me to get HDMI audio out of the Toshiba XA2 (YEA!). I have my PS3 and XA2 going to my receiver first, then to a single input on the Lumagen. Now I can only get PC levels out of the PS3. It appears that the reports of the PS3 sending video with RGB full and superwhite on are not always true. I now run with XA2 and PS3 inputs at PC levels, Oppo SDI and cable box inputs at video levels, output always PC levels.

This basically happened to me as well. I was actually getting Y Pb Pr from the PS3 and the HD-A1, but then I updated the firmware on my Denon 3806 and everything seemed to go to RGB/PC levels no matter what I do on both. If I set the Lumagen to video levels from the PS3 I see absolutely nothing in the brightness test patterns no matter what the setting is on the PS3 or Lumagen.

Hopefully all of these "problems" will be alleviated when I upgrade to the Radiance (or another HDMI based video processor - been keeping a close eye on what JVC has planed :) )
This will allow me to input everything into the VP directly without losing audio...so the receiver won't be in the way to screw up any EDID information. I can then output the signal to the Display and Receiver for sound separately.

The Avia test patterns actually look weird on the PS3...the brightness pattern is all blocky and stuff. Has anyone else noticed that? I must have a setting that's off. I don't use the PS3 for SD-DVD so it hasn't really impacted me - but I'm just wondering if this is common.

Do you have any MGM or Sony Blu-Ray disks? Some of them have hidden test patterns. Terminator has the patterns - you show them by entering 7669 on the main menu. The color bars test has the standard brightness bar in the lower right corner. My PS3 PC black and white input levels match exactly what I have for brightness settings from Avia and HD-DVE on the XA2 (both PC levels).

I would like to find a HDMI to DVI EDID faker box - I have the "DVI doctor" - a EDID store and keepalive dongle that works on my dual DVI output HTPC, but it does not support HDCP and it is DVI anyway. I bet there is some HDMI active switcher/signal booster or other device that could be placed in-line that would fix the EDID issue, still looking.

I think people have had luck with the switchers - sending one signal to the receiver and another to the VP. But good switchers aren't cheap - I'm dealing right now. I'm planing an upgrade to the VP as soon as we find out what's at CEDIA so that should work.

I unfortunately don't have HD-DVE. The Avia settings from the A1 didn't match the PS3 for some reason. I have to go back and check.

Heads up...FWIW, I upgraded PS3 FW to v1.90 tonight, and no longer have BTB with any combination. Will put a call into Sony.

I believe the combo in my system is Enhanced/PC from Lumagen output on, and Video level on Lumagen input level, and of course RGB Full on PS3. As I remember, if Video (Normal) was set on the RS1 and Video on the Lumagen output, I couldn't achieve BTB. I'll verify tonight. As a follow up...with these settings AND PS3 firmware v1.90, I now get a horrible result. Black is dark navy blue with all kinds of whacky things going on. The DVE pluge pattern is bizarre. The black background field is dark navy blue, and there are two black bars. The BTB bar is not visible. I have to change the Lumagen input level to PC to get rid of the navy blue and get the normal dark gray bars...but the BTB bar is not visible with any combination of settings. This has to be a PS3 firmware glitch.

I haven't updated yet...was going to give it whirl tonight.

Vigga,
Things are definitely different. There is no going back on the firmware, so heads-up. I've been on the phone a lot today with a comrade trying to sort the issues with the luminance after this update. I think we have a best current solution, but I have to confirm after dark.

Here is what we found today using a gray step test pattern in the PS3. First, we took the Lumagen out of the loop, going directly to the RS1 via HDMI. In this configuration the RS1 still did best in Enhanced rather than normal. The PS3 only passed BTB and WTW in YbPbCr (Component) Superwhite. In RGB limited, the PS3 was clipped below 16 and above 235. RGB Full clips the blacks a bar above 16. We put the Lumagen back in the path. The RS1 still has to be in Enhanced on HDMI set-up; the Lumagen output level on PC. With Lumagen input level on Video, PS3 would not do quite the same as with the Lumagen not in the path. In all modes, the Lumagen clips the whites above 235, including Component Superwhite which was terrific without the Lumagen. Overall, this is not a big deal. Surprisingly, the black were crushed a bit above 16 in Component Superwhite. The best setting with the Lumagen appears to now be RGB Limited. I'll have to confirm this after dark, but it sure looks that way. RGB Full gives the wild navy blue background.

Randy or Jim, what do you make of this?

Cam Man-
Do you have a contact at Sony? If not, I have the name, email and voice number of one of the higher level people in San Fran. PM me for details-

Thanks, mate. I'll drop you a PM.

BTW, I did confirm last night the "new" settings above that got me back to the proper image.

Here is what we found today using a gray step test pattern in the PS3.
Cam Man-
Were you using a test disc for this or is there a way to get the PS3 to give test patterns?

In this case I was using the Get Gray disc. The first pattern in the Brightness & Contrast section is a step scale with 16 and 235 marked; makes it very easy to see what's what.

Gothca-
I only have DVE and Avia.