Cnet once again shows it true color, and its Blu.

http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9728708-1.html?tag=cnetfd.mt

I know this info has been posted before but just read what this guy says and how he puts it into a true Blu Fan Boy's prospective.

Toshiba gets jolt of HD DVD reality

* David Carnoy

You've heard the expression "underpromise, overdeliver." Well, Toshiba execs are getting a little taste of "overpromise, underdeliver" when it comes to sales of HD DVD players.

According to a Reuters report today, "The Japanese electronics group now expects to sell 1 million next-generation optical disc players and recorders in North America by the end of calendar 2007, down 44 percent from its previous estimate of 1.8 million unit sales." Toshiba's also pulling back on its projection of selling 3 million units of HD DVD players and recorders worldwide by the end of the business year to March 2008, though smartly, execs shied away from giving any new estimates.

While the overall sales numbers haven't been great for HD DVD players, the more ominous number may be the figure buried at the end of the story. Toshiba reported that "More than 60 percent of all dedicated next-generation DVD players sold in North America used the HD DVD format as of the end of May." That's not counting PS3 sales--and that's really not good, considering standalone Blu-ray players cost a couple hundred bucks more than HD DVD players and seem like a stupid purchase with the PS3 out there at basically the same price. True, this month Toshiba got a lift after lowering the price on its entry-level HD DVD player to $299. But that's gotta put a real squeeze on margins. We're talking zero.

No one's throwing in the towel yet, but the real question is just how much money is Toshiba willing to lose to try to win. Anybody got an estimate?

Couldn't agree more. Great article with lots of great facts.

Also, edit out your comments from the cut/pasted article, thats just aweful.

Couldn't agree more. Great article with lots of great facts.

Also, edit out your comments from the cut/pasted article, thats just aweful.

You are just as blu as this guy. The only fact in that article is the one I put in there

So, CNET implies Toshiba is losing money on their HD DVD players and it's "desperation" yet they have no problem with Sony coughing up a lung to fund PS3.

Figures. :rolleyes:

You are just as blu as this guy. The only fact in that article is the one I put in there

You should edit your commentary out of that article.

So, CNET implies Toshiba is losing money on their HD DVD players and it's "desperation" yet they have no problem with Sony coughing up a lung to fund PS3.

Figures. :rolleyes:

amen.... dont know why they would gloss over that fact and then knock toshiba for it.

I think that claims of either format losing or being a loser reek of bias. If anything they are both losers. I don't think it is possible to argue the fact that both formats have been anemic so far.

So, CNET implies Toshiba is losing money on their HD DVD players and it's "desperation" yet they have no problem with Sony coughing up a lung to fund PS3.

Figures. :rolleyes:

The big difference is the PS3 is also a game console. A game console being a loss leader is the normal business practice in the game industry. Any knowledgeable industry journalist knows this.

The big difference is the PS3 is also a game console. A game console being a loss leader is the normal business practice in the game industry. Any knowledgeable industry journalist knows this.
Losing money is losing money. Of course stores and companies do it all the time to move products and create new markets. It is how the Japanese took over the TV market.

amen.... dont know why they would gloss over that fact and then knock toshiba for it.

I believe in the Video Game console industry, software makes the money. I'm not sure that Toshiba makes any money if Universal sells discs, maybe a little on some patents I'm not sure. But needless to say the money made by Sony on PS3 Video game software is greater than the kickback Toshiba will be getting from disc sales. That is why it is less of a big deal for Sony to subsidize a game console. Every PS3 sold should have a long income tail, so to speak, but a stand alone has a one time cost and then...

i know sony makes money elsewhere but not all consoles are loss leaders.... its been long said that nintendo doesnt sell their systems below cost and they make money on every one sold. it has also been speculated that pretty recently ms is now making money on every 360 sold.

the reason the software model works is when you can sell 100 million consoles to make the money back on software.... and the one thing the high price is doing is virutally guaranteeing that sony will not make that 100 million mark again with the ps3. and we have already seen that sony laid off employees due to the sales of the ps3. but the key to making the money back from software is to sell vast amounts of software to a point that you can make up 200 losses for each console sold.

I do think the markets are different but I still dont think you should knock one product for selling at a loss and not all products that sell at a loss.

i know sony makes money elsewhere but not all consoles are loss leaders.... its been long said that nintendo doesnt sell their systems below cost and they make money on every one sold. it has also been speculated that pretty recently ms is now making money on every 360 sold.

the reason the software model works is when you can sell 100 million consoles to make the money back on software.... and the one thing the high price is doing is virutally guaranteeing that sony will not make that 100 million mark again with the ps3. and we have already seen that sony laid off employees due to the sales of the ps3. but the key to making the money back from software is to sell vast amounts of software to a point that you can make up 200 losses for each console sold.

I do think the markets are different but I still dont think you should knock one product for selling at a loss and not all products that sell at a loss.

Nintendo has never sold a console at a loss. All other companys have. Sony has done it on the PS1 (104 million systems sold), the PS2 (110 million systems sold) and now on the PS3. No CE company has ever sold a DVD player, Divx player, LD player, etc, at a loss. Except for HD-DVD.

No CE company has ever sold a DVD player, Divx player, LD player, etc, at a loss. Except for HD-DVD.

That is the most ridiculus statement I have ever heard on this forum!

Couldn't agree more. Great article with lots of great facts.



First error: Facts can't be great. Facts are just facts.

Second error: The article doesn't contain facts. It's regurgitating a press release with blu spin. States zero profit margin for Toshiba with no evidence to back it up while failing to mention sub-zero profit margin on PS3. Calls Toshiba projection adjustment "overpromising and underdelivering" while failing to mention the current state of PS3 sales vs projections.

Unbiased conclusion: The 'article' is just an emotional biased rant by a format fanboy.

It's gotten so bad around here that I have to keep a second browser window open so my ignore list is nearby at all times.

That is the most ridiculus statement I have ever heard on this forum!

It does rank up there, doesn't it? I don't know who made the comment, as the poster is apparently, and rightly so, on my ignore list.

Add yet another site to the "We will no longer visit this site because somebody expressed an opinion that was not favorable to HD DVD" pile.

Pretty soon there won't be much internet left.

That is the most ridiculus statement I have ever heard on this forum!

..don't worry. He'll continue to post and provide fodder for more ridicule. :D

First error: Facts can't be great. Facts are just facts.

Second error: The article doesn't contain facts. It's regurgitating a press release with blu spin. States zero profit margin for Toshiba with no evidence to back it up while failing to mention sub-zero profit margin on PS3. Calls Toshiba projection adjustment "overpromising and underdelivering" while failing to mention the current state of PS3 sales vs projections.

Unbiased conclusion: The 'article' is just an emotional biased rant by a format fanboy.

It's gotten so bad around here that I have to keep a second browser window open so my ignore list is nearby at all times.

Agree. It seems the PS3 has spawned a small legion of Sony sycophants skulking this site with nothing constructive to give except regurgitating the latest fanboy drivel. Makes me ashamed to own a PS3.

Add yet another site to the "We will no longer visit this site because somebody expressed an opinion that was not favorable to HD DVD" pile.

Pretty soon there won't be much internet left.

Who said anything about not visiting anymore?

And there is a difference between expressing an opinion vs presenting opinion as fact, or presenting certain facts while selectively ignoring other relevant facts for the purpose of advancing a personal and biased agenda.

Add yet another site to the "We will no longer visit this site because somebody expressed an opinion that was not favorable to HD DVD" pile.

Pretty soon there won't be much internet left.

LOL, no kidding. :D

Who said anything about not visiting anymore?

No one yet but someone surely will. That's how it works at AVS.

No one's throwing in the towel yet, but the real question is just how much money is Toshiba willing to lose to try to win. Anybody got an estimate?

I got an estimate, less than Sony is losing on Blu-Ray

I got an estimate, less than Sony is losing on Blu-Ray

And that is a good thing? That the only company providing players for your format isn't willing to go as far as the competition to see it succeed?

And that is a good thing? That the only company providing players for your format isn't willing to go as far as the competition to see it succeed?

Good point.

And that is a good thing? That the only company providing players for your format isn't willing to go as far as the competition to see it succeed?

Well if Sony wants to lose $2 billion in their game division (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6170827.html) more frequently.... then they can do it. It's their company they got the freedom to run it into the ground.

Toshiba on the other hand posted record earnings (http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/26042007/323/toshiba-posts-record-earnings.html)

So... yes, Toshiba's stock holders think it is a very good thing, I'm glad I don't own Sony stocks.

You are just as blu as this guy. The only fact in that article is the one I put in there


Jesus Christ what is with you guys and websites stating their opinions? OMG They're Blu. CNET is Blu. The Bits are blu, Dvdtown and dvdtalk are Red! Who cares?

No one's throwing in the towel yet, but the real question is just how much money is Toshiba willing to lose to try to win. Anybody got an estimate?

I've the answer. But, first tell me how much is Sony willing to lose :p

When will CNET atleast try to be unbiased ?

Well if Sony wants to lose $2 billion in their game division (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6170827.html) more frequently.... then they can do it. It's their company they got the freedom to run it into the ground.

Toshiba on the other hand posted record earnings (http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/26042007/323/toshiba-posts-record-earnings.html)

So... yes, Toshiba's stock holders think it is a very good thing, I'm glad I don't own Sony stocks.

That's too bad, because both Sony (http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=6m&l=on&z=m&q=l&p=&a=&c=&s=SNE) and Toshiba's (http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=TSE1.BE&t=6m&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=) stocks are up about 15% for the year. Toshiba's seems to be more volatile, though. Glad you're not my financial planner.

Losing money on hardware is now (non-Nintendo) game consoles work. Despite losing more than 5 billion on Xbox (http://www.forbes.com/home/personalfinance/2007/04/18/xbox-microsoft-nintendo-pf-ii-in_re_0418soapbox_inl.html), Microsoft doesn't seem to be giving up.

Yawn

Children, children, when will we all learn to play nice? ;) :cool:

Losing money is losing money. Of course stores and companies do it all the time to move products and create new markets. It is how the Japanese took over the TV market.

Out of curiousity, what CE device was intentionally sold at a loss in the last 10 years?

Out of curiousity, what CE device was intentionally sold at a loss in the last 10 years?


The HD-A1, the HD-A2, the HD-XA2, the HD-A20.

Oh wait. You were looking for ANOTHER CE device...?

Eh... coming up with nothing else. Sorry about that. ;)

I think the article is regurgitating the press release with an opinion. It's an opinion I share, but really... what do you expect?

Anyone looking at the situation could easily come up with the same. I see so many people crying about how Sony's hit squad runs around making Sony-supporting posts, but I see so much anti-Sony sentiment around here for no good reason (and/or pro-HD DVD lovefests that forgive any inaccuracy or mistake made by Toshiba) that I just don't see how anyone can tell the difference between one fanboy or the other.

I do think that it is important that HD DVD is only 60% of all players when NOT considering the best selling, easily most feature-packed, and slickest BD player available. Imagine taking out the A2 sales and just comparing the second and third best selling players (A20 and XA2) to the second and third best selling BD players. What would those percentages be like then?

I'm not arguing the PS3 should be counted, but I am arguing that the counting is not really indicative of anything because we can't accurately gauge how many PS3's are being used to play BD's. It's important because of how great a player PS3's are and how biased toward the PS3 any poll of what player is being used to play BD's. Even on this site where people will spend twice as much on a BD player just to get IR or analog's.

So taking out the best selling player--even if most of them aren't used for BD--and you can still only claim 60% sales over the competing format while INCLUDING your best selling player, I think you've definitely got problems. Especially when one set of players cost a lot more than another and one set is being sold with a ton of free discs JUST to get people on board.

- Players selling worse than they want despite press releases announcing how "well" they're doing.
- Discs selling worse than they want (2 to 1 in favor of BD with no Fox or MGM releases) despite press releases announcing how the consumer favors them (though only 1/2 as much. ;) )
- Players sold below what Toshiba wanted to sell them for a couple months ago ($300 instead of 500, $500 instead of $800), which suggests (but does not prove) Toshiba selling units below cost. We know they were selling the A1 below cost last year. At this point, we can't even be sure Toshiba's making (or made) any money at all on this format.
- The PS3 being sold below cost is nothing new for consoles. Game software makes up for it quickly when it starts to sell. Movies don't do it as well because the royalties Toshiba would make off disc sales would be a pittance next to what they SEEM to be losing on their players. CE devices don't typically operate under this business model. This implies Toshiba is desperate to either get these new royalties OR kill both formats to ensure they get the royalties from DVD. In which case, their moves to date are shrewd.
- Toshiba expects the new, lower cost players to save the day at the end of the year, but their expected pricepoint has already been reached by Toshiba with free movies thrown in for good measure. If this can't boost sales, what can they do at the end of the year? Even lower prices? What motivation does any CE manufacturer have to join Toshiba in this low-end money-losing propostion now? Indeed, this is probably why every non-Toshiba HD DVD player has been designed, built, and manufactured by Toshiba. Rebadging.

Just my opinions.

Do all HD DVD fans believe what they themselves write and own Toshiba stocks?

I'm not arguing the PS3 should be counted, but I am arguing that the counting is not really indicative of anything because we can't accurately gauge how many PS3's are being used to play BD's. ...

Actually, we can.

It's save to assume that the sales numbers of the POTC movies is very indicative for this. 90% of people that are using the PS3 for movies will buy those titles.

We only to take into account the ratio between PS3 and stand alone br players sold and pick the one POTC title that sold the most copies.

So let's assume 100000 copies sold.
For every br player sold ( Sony: 'less than 100000') there are 15 br players sold.
So let's assume that 80000 stand alone br players are sold then it's save to assume that most of the owners bought the Pirates movies. assume 70000

About 30000 users use the PS3 as a movie player.

2% :o

Actually, we can.

It's save to assume that the sales numbers of the POTC movies is very indicative for this. 90% of people that are using the PS3 for movies will buy those titles.

We only to take into account the ratio between PS3 and stand alone br players sold and pick the one POTC title that sold the most copies.

So let's assume 100000 copies sold.
For every br player sold ( Sony: 'less than 100000') there are 15 br players sold.
So let's assume that 80000 stand alone br players are sold then it's save to assume that most of the owners bought the Pirates movies. assume 70000

About 30000 users use the PS3 as a movie player.

2% :o


Ehhhh.

I'd be more willing to go with sales of the BD remote than assume that people who buy PS3's automatically must love POTC. ;)

EDIT:

Though you will always remember this as the day that you almost caught Captain Jack Sparrow!

It's funny because I actually put that (or a derivative of it) in one of those early April threads where these same two factions (red vs blue) were arguing about which movie series would "do better," The Matrix or POTC. Obviously, we know who was right. ;) Cough.

Forcing people to buy a box set will always reduce pure sales numbers. Even if it were LOTR. Certainly, if it's The Matrix Trilogy.

Would someone please provide me a link , other than that old article back in June of 2006, that shows Toshiba is losing money on HD DVD.

These bold statements go unchallanged and as far as I can see - are pure BS.

Is this attitude based on, "well Sony is losing money so Toshiba must be also?"

Everyone knows they lost money on the A1. I want to see PROOF that they are losing money on each A2 and A20.

I have searched high and low and I can't find it. Their financials don't show it. The only ones who say they are, are the BD fanboys and the uninformed websites that post this crap and want it to be taken as fact because they said it.

PROOF!

WHERE IS IT?

Would someone please provide me a link , other than that old article back in June of 2006, that shows Toshiba is losing money on HD DVD.

These bold statements go unchallanged and as far as I can see - are pure BS.

Is this attitude based on, "well Sony is losing money so Toshiba must be also?"

Everyone knows they lost money on the A1. I want to see PROOF that they are losing money on each A2 and A20.

I have searched high and low and I can't find it. Their financials don't show it. The only ones who say they are, are the BD fanboys and the uninformed websites that post this crap and want it to be taken as fact because they said it.

PROOF!

WHERE IS IT?Here, from the same people who said Sony is selling PS3 below cost
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/jun2006/tc20060622_113255.htm
Toshiba is gunning for an early lead in the high-stakes battle for share in the market for the newest high-definition DVD players. The Japanese consumer electronics giant got its HD-A1 HD-DVD player onto retailers' shelves before the competing flavor of DVD player. It's also selling the machines at a loss.

That's the verdict of market research firm iSuppli, which carried out a so-called teardown of the machine, picking it apart to determine what's inside and how much it cost to build. iSuppli analyst Chris Crotty reckons the internal electronics cost about $674, bringing the total to more than $700 when components such as packaging and manufacturing are included.

The players sell through retailers like Best Buy (BBY) and Target (TGT) for $499, leaving Toshiba (TOSBF) with a per-unit loss of $200 or more.

Dated JUNE 23, 2006 !

This is what he asked.

Would someone please provide me a link , other than that old article back in June of 2006, that shows Toshiba is losing money on HD DVD.

Everyone knows they lost money on the A1. I want to see PROOF that they are losing money on each A2 and A20.

Dated JUNE 23, 2006 !That's the point. The same firm that said PS3 was sold below cost so why believe their analysis on PS3 but not on the Tosh player? In addition, the production volume of the HD DVD player is far smaller than that of PS3.

That's the point. The same firm that said PS3 was sold below cost so why believe their analysis on PS3 but not on the Tosh player? In addition, the production volume of the HD DVD player is far smaller than that of PS3.

You just don't get it do you?

That article was for the A1, which we know had a higher cost than the new units.

You really think that the cost of an A2 is in the ballpark of an A1?

That's naive.

That's the point. The same firm that said PS3 was sold below cost so why believe their analysis on PS3 but not on the Tosh player? In addition, the production volume of the HD DVD player is far smaller than that of PS3.

And with this vaulted high production for PS3, Sony has lost how much so far? Last read I saw was $1.7 Billion. It was all over the media. It was in their financials, they "retired" the man who developed the PS2 and the PS3.

FUD!

Facts Un Determined!

Countless times i have been asked to show links supporting my statements. Now it is my time to ask the same thing!

The Digital Bits has said it.
CRAVE (CNET) has said it.
TVPredictions has said it.

ALL with not a shrewd of proof.

Put Up or Shut Up!

That's the point. The same firm that said PS3 was sold below cost so why believe their analysis on PS3 but not on the Tosh player? In addition, the production volume of the HD DVD player is far smaller than that of PS3.
You're arguing a point that's already been ceded. EVERYBODY knows the A1 was sold at a loss. NOBODY denies it. You're making the argument that the A2 is sold at a loss, and backing it up with info about a previous generation that was never designed for mass production. The current generation was designed explicitly FOR mass production, and component prices have fallen in the past year. Drives are cheaper, there are no SHARC processors, no multichannel DACs, slower secondary processor, etc. So we don't know the production costs OF THE A2--that is EXACTLY what Lee is looking for. Yet you throw up this A1 strawman as if it means something.

Essentially you're saying that since the 4th gen 20GB iPod was sold at a modest profit for $299, that the 5th gen 30GB is being sold at a loss at $249.

The title of this thread should say:
CNET Underdelivers!

It used to be a great site back in the late 90's. Now it's a pretty lackluster offering with columnists that many times have little to no knowledge about the products they review. I don't care if it is HD-DVD, Blu-Ray, or I-Pod... C-Net is the last place I go for reference information and intellegent reviews.

Case-in-point: C-Net thinks the HD-A2 is the same price as the PS3. I could be wrong, but last I checked, there was $300 difference.

Overpromising & Underdelivering. Isn't that Blu-ray's motto? :rolleyes:

You're arguing a point that's already been ceded. EVERYBODY knows the A1 was sold at a loss. NOBODY denies it. You're making the argument that the A2 is sold at a loss, and backing it up with info about a previous generation that was never designed for mass production. The current generation was designed explicitly FOR mass production, and component prices have fallen in the past year. Drives are cheaper, there are no SHARC processors, no multichannel DACs, slower secondary processor, etc. So we don't know the production costs OF THE A2--that is EXACTLY what Lee is looking for. Yet you throw up this A1 strawman as if it means something.

Essentially you're saying that since the 4th gen 20GB iPod was sold at a modest profit for $299, that the 5th gen 30GB is being sold at a loss at $249.
What are you talking about? Did you do tear down analysis or what? :rolleyes:
http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvd/product.asp?model=HD-A2
(Press "Benefits")
Audio
High-performance SHARC® DSP
Benefit: Realize the benefits of new generation high-definition audio to complement high-definition video with 32-bit floating point SHARC DSP. Designed to perform audio conversion while executing extensive on-board multi-channel signal management, SHARC DSP in HD DVD delivers stunning audio to complete your total high-definition experience.

Supposed PS3 costs click me (http://www.isuppli.com/news/default.asp?id=6919)

CNet are known shills, don't bother reading any reviews there

Out of curiousity, what CE device was intentionally sold at a loss in the last 10 years?

Satellite radios...?
cell phones...?
any CE device that generates a revenue stream after the initial purchase...?

What are you talking about? Did you do tear down analysis or what? :rolleyes:
http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/dvd/product.asp?model=HD-A2
(Press "Benefits")

My apologies, there is ONE SHARC in the HD-A2. As opposed to the FOUR in the HD-A1. Most people (but probably not yourself) would agree that four processors costs more than one. Drives are still cheaper. slower processors are still cheaper (hell, even the same speed would be cheaper one year later). There are still no multichannel DACs because there's no analog outputs they need to run. Player design and layout is less complicated and therefore cheaper to construct.

You STILL haven't said anything about how the HD-A2 is being sold at a loss, except for posting an old link (that no one contests) about how the HD-A1 was expensive. Yeah we KNOW it was expensive. But you keep trying to deflect from the question at hand.

Now, to ask for the FIFTH time in this ONE thread, HOW DO YOU KNOW THE HD-A2 IS BEING SOLD AT A LOSS?!?!?

And with this vaulted high production for PS3, Sony has lost how much so far? Last read I saw was $1.7 Billion. It was all over the media. It was in their financials, they "retired" the man who developed the PS2 and the PS3.

FUD!

Facts Un Determined!

Countless times i have been asked to show links supporting my statements. Now it is my time to ask the same thing!
.....
ALL with not a shrewd of proof.

Put Up or Shut Up!

Lee, I agree with you 100% on this one. Show us the facts before making such claims.

The article doesn't take Sony's loss into consideration at all. While some have pointed out the game consoles work on a different approach then most CE devices, it still (if it wasn't a biased article) should point out both sides and let the consumers decide which facts are more important.

I know it's their right to have an opinion, but C-Net being a review site to some degree should take the higher road. Report all the good and bad, not just the points to make a certain product look favorable.

I personally support the red, but once someone on the blu brings down the price enough I'll be neutral. But I will add I have had a lot of problems with past Sony products being crap and breaking down. I'm on my second Playstation 2, and had a car radio and A/V receiver break as well from Sony. Since I have invested a fair amount of money on those I have a sour taste for Sony electronics. Also I've had many issues with their customer service. And oddly enough from buying into new brands, I've seen far superior performance and quality from other brands such as Pioneer and Samsung.

I know that last paragraph was probably not on topic, but I feel if the article can give an opinion like that I'm going to give mine.

And with this vaulted high production for PS3, Sony has lost how much so far? Last read I saw was $1.7 Billion. It was all over the media. It was in their financials, they "retired" the man who developed the PS2 and the PS3.

FUD!

Facts Un Determined!

Countless times i have been asked to show links supporting my statements. Now it is my time to ask the same thing!

The Digital Bits has said it.
CRAVE (CNET) has said it.
TVPredictions has said it.

ALL with not a shrewd of proof.

Put Up or Shut Up!

You won't get any proof to these allegations because there IS no proof! It is simply more Blu-Ray fanboy pontification. They simply cannot let HD-DVD have any good news without immediately scoffing at it. They ridicule the fact that there are 150,000 HD-DVD stand-alone players sold in the US, but refuse to understand that a whopping 50,000 of these were sold in a few weeks time! Let them continue their BS with signatures like, "HDDVD is dead. Stick a fork in it." They'll be laughing out the other side of their mouths soon.

You won't get any proof to these allegations because there IS no proof!

But Bob . . . Everyone is saying it. Websites, members at different Forums. I mean these people can't be wrong.

Can they? :D



Still patiently waiting for the:


PROOF?

That's too bad, because both Sony (http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=6m&l=on&z=m&q=l&p=&a=&c=&s=SNE) and Toshiba's (http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=TSE1.BE&t=6m&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=) stocks are up about 15% for the year. Toshiba's seems to be more volatile, though. Glad you're not my financial planner.
If you think Sony's stocks will continue to rise if they lose another $2 billion then you're crazy

Losing money on hardware is now (non-Nintendo) game consoles work. Despite losing more than 5 billion on Xbox (http://www.forbes.com/home/personalfinance/2007/04/18/xbox-microsoft-nintendo-pf-ii-in_re_0418soapbox_inl.html), Microsoft doesn't seem to be giving up.

So $5 billion dollars since the XBox in 2001, a 6 year time frame, versus $2 billion in less than 5 months.

The HD-A1, the HD-A2, the HD-XA2, the HD-A20.

Oh wait. You were looking for ANOTHER CE device...?

Eh... coming up with nothing else. Sorry about that. ;)

I think the article is regurgitating the press release with an opinion. It's an opinion I share, but really... what do you expect?

Anyone looking at the situation could easily come up with the same. I see so many people crying about how Sony's hit squad runs around making Sony-supporting posts, but I see so much anti-Sony sentiment around here for no good reason (and/or pro-HD DVD lovefests that forgive any inaccuracy or mistake made by Toshiba) that I just don't see how anyone can tell the difference between one fanboy or the other.

I do think that it is important that HD DVD is only 60% of all players when NOT considering the best selling, easily most feature-packed, and slickest BD player available. Imagine taking out the A2 sales and just comparing the second and third best selling players (A20 and XA2) to the second and third best selling BD players. What would those percentages be like then?

I'm not arguing the PS3 should be counted, but I am arguing that the counting is not really indicative of anything because we can't accurately gauge how many PS3's are being used to play BD's. It's important because of how great a player PS3's are and how biased toward the PS3 any poll of what player is being used to play BD's. Even on this site where people will spend twice as much on a BD player just to get IR or analog's.

So taking out the best selling player--even if most of them aren't used for BD--and you can still only claim 60% sales over the competing format while INCLUDING your best selling player, I think you've definitely got problems. Especially when one set of players cost a lot more than another and one set is being sold with a ton of free discs JUST to get people on board.

- Players selling worse than they want despite press releases announcing how "well" they're doing.
- Discs selling worse than they want (2 to 1 in favor of BD with no Fox or MGM releases) despite press releases announcing how the consumer favors them (though only 1/2 as much. ;) )
- Players sold below what Toshiba wanted to sell them for a couple months ago ($300 instead of 500, $500 instead of $800), which suggests (but does not prove) Toshiba selling units below cost. We know they were selling the A1 below cost last year. At this point, we can't even be sure Toshiba's making (or made) any money at all on this format.
- The PS3 being sold below cost is nothing new for consoles. Game software makes up for it quickly when it starts to sell. Movies don't do it as well because the royalties Toshiba would make off disc sales would be a pittance next to what they SEEM to be losing on their players. CE devices don't typically operate under this business model. This implies Toshiba is desperate to either get these new royalties OR kill both formats to ensure they get the royalties from DVD. In which case, their moves to date are shrewd.
- Toshiba expects the new, lower cost players to save the day at the end of the year, but their expected pricepoint has already been reached by Toshiba with free movies thrown in for good measure. If this can't boost sales, what can they do at the end of the year? Even lower prices? What motivation does any CE manufacturer have to join Toshiba in this low-end money-losing propostion now? Indeed, this is probably why every non-Toshiba HD DVD player has been designed, built, and manufactured by Toshiba. Rebadging.

Just my opinions.

A well written, totally opinionated post!

From a true, blue BD Fanboy!

Congrats!

Pssssst . . . .

Should we tell him the new Sony S300 is a rebadge of the current Samsung 1200?

Nah - let's keep it a secret! :D

...
It used to be a great site back in the late 90's. Now it's a pretty lackluster offering with columnists that many times have little to no knowledge about the products they review. I don't care if it is HD-DVD, Blu-Ray, or I-Pod... C-Net is the last place I go for reference information and intellegent reviews....
That's very true. They were among the first internet technology sites in the beginning, now it's just an also-run.

That's very true. They were among the first internet technology sites in the beginning, now it's just an also-run.Yeah, I used to LOVE their site. I'm probably the only geek that used to turn into "CNet Radio" daily. They used to review every single technology item and electronic gadget, and they had top rate professionals. Now they only review about 1/8th of all products, their editors picks are usually not credible choices, and their editorial articles seem to be technology peices written by college students in literature classes but with no technical background or expertise. Another casualty of the internet fall out I guess. :(

My apologies, there is ONE SHARC in the HD-A2. As opposed to the FOUR in the HD-A1. Most people (but probably not yourself) would agree that four processors costs more than one. Drives are still cheaper. slower processors are still cheaper (hell, even the same speed would be cheaper one year later). There are still no multichannel DACs because there's no analog outputs they need to run. Player design and layout is less complicated and therefore cheaper to construct.Do you have any proof for that other than your conjecture? S-video and Component are analog BTW.

Do you have any proof for that other than your conjecture? S-video and Component are analog BTW.

Proof for what? That drives are cheaper? There have been numerous announcements of the falling prices of blue laser diodes, does the rest of the mechanism get more expensive to make up for it? Did a 900Mhz Celeron suddenly become more expensive than a 2.2Ghz Pentium 4 over the last year? Does a DVD player need multichannel DACs when it has NO multichannel outputs? Analog VIDEO is a red herring. Does it cost more to assemble a single-plane chassis with one small motherboard and a small power supply, or a complex dual-plane chassis with three large PC boards, a few small ones, and a power supply?

So what you're saying is you're NEVER EVER EVER going to answer the question. YOU made the claim that the A2 is sold at a loss. Ergo, the burden of proof is on YOU. But you will continue to deflect, no matter how many times you are pressed, because you have no proof of it. Just like you never responded when several people debunked your claim that the BDP-S1 is not a rebadged and lower-featured Pioneer BDP-HD1.

Proof for what? That drives are cheaper? There have been numerous announcements of the falling prices of blue laser diodes, does the rest of the mechanism get more expensive to make up for it? Did a 900Mhz Celeron suddenly become more expensive than a 2.2Ghz Pentium 4 over the last year? Does a DVD player need multichannel DACs when it has NO multichannel outputs? Analog VIDEO is a red herring. Does it cost more to assemble a single-plane chassis with one small motherboard and a small power supply, or a complex dual-plane chassis with three large PC boards, a few small ones, and a power supply?

So what you're saying is you're NEVER EVER EVER going to answer the question. YOU made the claim that the A2 is sold at a loss. Ergo, the burden of proof is on YOU. But you will continue to deflect, no matter how many times you are pressed, because you have no proof of it. Just like you never responded when several people debunked your claim that the BDP-S1 is not a rebadged and lower-featured Pioneer BDP-HD1.
I can answer that for you. Yes he will continue to spout it and no there won't be any proof. This is the AVS forum which seems for some people to stand for Anti Verifiable Source

If you think Sony's stocks will continue to rise if they lose another $2 billion then you're crazy.

Since I don't think they will continue losses at this rate, and since the market apparently does not think so either, what's your point? Got any other bad investment advice for us?

So $5 billion dollars since the XBox in 2001, a 6 year time frame, versus $2 billion in less than 5 months.

Yes, because you're assuming that Sony will continue to lose similar amounts going forward. Microsoft's losses were also front-loaded.

Should we tell him the new Sony S300 is a rebadge of the current Samsung 1200?You just keep right on dreaming that. :rolleyes: Guess you haven't seen the pictures of the inside and back panel or the press release stating where it's made.

First error: Facts can't be great. Facts are just facts.



That might just be the most retarded thing I have ever heard.

You just keep right on dreaming that. :rolleyes: Guess you haven't seen the pictures of the inside and back panel or the press release stating where it's made.

Seems some posts have been deleted.

I posted that yes I did make an error and did apologize for the statement as it was not correct. Just wanted to set the "record" straight on this

Satellite radios...?
cell phones...?
any CE device that generates a revenue stream after the initial purchase...?

Cell phones arent sold at a loss, you just don't pay for the total cost of the handset upfront. Try cancelling your service and you get hit with $175 ETF. If you want to buy a handset without a contract you pay full price. As for satellite receivers being sold for a loss, I really don't know. Perhaps receivers are sold at a loss which is why satellite radio is not a profitable business.

As for satellite receivers being sold for a loss, I really don't know. Perhaps receivers are sold at a loss which is why satellite radio is not a profitable business.

We're drifting off topic here, but many satellite radio receivers are sold at a loss, as in some cases, the prices are too low to even cover packaging. When I resubscribed to XM today, they offered me a Roady XT (which includes antenna, power supply, etc etc) for $5 shipped. Some of the $100+ models might generate profit at the sale, but I doubt if most of the low-end ones do.

Since I don't think they will continue losses at this rate, and since the market apparently does not think so either, what's your point? Got any other bad investment advice for us?



Yes, because you're assuming that Sony will continue to lose similar amounts going forward. Microsoft's losses were also front-loaded.

Actually I'm not assuming. I'm just reading straight from the sources. Do a google search, if anyone thinks losing $2 billion in a 3 month timeframe is better than losing $5 billion in a 6 year timeframe then they are insane

I'm glad I don't take financial advice from the Blu-Ray hordes or they would tell me to sell my stocks @ $240 below market value. Nice try, but try a little harder you make it to easy.

I can answer that for you. Yes he will continue to spout it and no there won't be any proof. This is the AVS forum which seems for some people to stand for Anti Verifiable Source
The A2 includes a 900MHz celeron and brcm SOC and the x86 northbridge chip. The components alone are the most expensive parts, they are not the most expensive chips in the world but they are not cheap either. I expect the 900MHz celeron would cost more than the most expensive blue-diode for BD today.

The A2 includes a 900MHz celeron and brcm SOC and the x86 northbridge chip. The components alone are the most expensive parts, they are not the most expensive chips in the world but they are not cheap either. I expect the 900MHz celeron would cost more than the most expensive blue-diode for BD today.

It's actually $2 cheaper even if you compare the processor's single-unit street price ($7) to the 1 million unit wholesale cost of a Blu-Ray diode ($9). More than likely large quantity wholesale prices are $5 and change.

It's actually $2 cheaper even if you compare the processor's single-unit street price ($7) to the 1 million unit wholesale cost of a Blu-Ray diode ($9). More than likely large quantity wholesale prices are $5 and change.

Did I read that correctly? A 900mhz celery costs $7.00?

celery...?!?!?

celery...?!?!?

lmao! I was thinking that to, what a weird short hand name for the Celeron.

Did I read that correctly? A 900mhz celery costs $7.00?
Yup. (http://www.memorytek.com/product_info.php?cPath=41_44&products_id=413) :D Not all that surprising, really, when you consider that Newegg sells a 2.5Ghz Celeron for $36. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116035)

Couldn't agree more. Great article with lots of great facts.

Also, edit out your comments from the cut/pasted article, thats just aweful.

Well if we are talking about margins, how about the fact that at Best Buy if you purchase (at 200 off msrp) say a Sony 60" A2020 SXRD & one Blu Ray movie & one PS3 game & one PS3, you magically get "600" off.

Essentially Sony is giving away PS3's as long as you come up with the sales tax. In no sales tax states, you buy this TV & you get a PS3 FREE!

So who's zooming whom here.

Lets not forget that Toshiba as a top 5 notebook computer manufacturer and purchaser of Intel chips will get a good discount from Intel who is on the HD DVD promo group. Also, if as Tosh says by 2008 all notebooks will have HD DVD drives, we're talking volume there as well....