Its True. I have bought both HD DVD and BD. In my eyes HD DVD has out done BD for many reasons. Content, quality, consistency etc. Yet I wanted BD to do well because of potential (fox), advertising and the thought of one format would be great. I also wanted the specs of BD to offer that much more because of its space. Fact is after over 1 year I have been wrong.

View my post history. I have been slanted towards HD DVD. Fact of the matter is that its not BD vs HD DVD its BD/HD DVD vs DVD. I sometimes wonder if everyone here on AVS chose 1 side if we would have forced an outcome of this war with one format, or at least dramatically increased the probability of HD/BD to replace SD. I would drop HD DVD or BD in a second for that prospect.

I lost sight of what I wanted. 1 HD format to replace crappy SD.

Honestly this thread is not meant to get lots of replies. Its really meant to say I have been wrong, and all I want is HD to replace SD, and if HD does well I want it to stay on Discs and not become a download only medium like M$ wants.

While many say both sides are here to stay I look at both sides as 1 side and say its very uncertian if the HD side will replace SD.

I agree with you vancouver. I posted this on another thread last week but I'll post it here too.

Okay, I'm going to finally say it to someone other than myself. I am bracing for the hailstorm that may assault me, here I go. NEITHER FORMAT WILL WIN. There, I've said it. I know everyone throws around this statistic and that statistic on both sides of the argument but I think both HD DVD and Blu-Ray are destined to be nothing more than niche products. Don't get me wrong, I hope someone does win. I am buying an HD-A2 and when a Blu-Ray player can be had for under $300 I'll buy one of those as well.

We on this forum are enthusiasts and we can easily see the benefits of HD discs and players but the average person does not. Of all the people I know with HDTVs there is only one person besides myself who is interested in HD DVD or Blu-Ray. These are people who know what the formats are about but simply say their standard dvd players are good enough for them. Incredibly, my local newspaper reported a few months ago that half of people with HDTVs don't even subscribe to HD service. Of course some just use OTA but that statistic is amazing. Check out this link from last December for homes without HD service. http://broadcastengineering.com/hdt...ice-fewer-hdtv/

If people don't see the value in HD service they are certainly not going to bother with HD players and discs. We must also consider the WAF. As long as women prefer to spend their discretionary income on clothes, shoes, purses, cosmetics, home products, etc... neither format has a chance. Also, HD disc prices will have to be very close to that of standard dvds.

Alright, I'm done with my rant. I want more HD and I want everyone else to want it too.

I hate to say this but HD DVD supporters have been suckered into a format that Microsoft supports for the sole purpose of derailing the mass adoption of ONE HD format. Judging from you guys' opinions, Microsoft achieved their goal.

Its still not too late for Blu-ray to win. I am holding out hope that Universal will come to their senses and adopt Blu-ray at CES 2008. If Universal won't support Blu-ray then, all bets are off.

I hate to say this but HD DVD supporters have been suckered into a format that Microsoft supports for the sole purpose of derailing the mass adoption of ONE HD format. Judging from you guys' opinions, Microsoft achieved their goal.

Its still not too late for Blu-ray to win. I am holding out hope that Universal will come to their senses and adopt Blu-ray at CES 2008. If Universal won't support Blu-ray then, all bets are off.

I agree with the first part but I believe Blu-ray can survive with out Universal well after CES 2008.

Anyone can see it's been demonstrated time and time again that consumers have a strong reluctance to adopt any hare-brained proprietary format that Sony can devise, and BR will be just another footnote when it comes down to it. I'm sure BR will survive as the UMD for the PS3 generation, but widespread adoption is a fantasy for the fanboys. Make the same mistakes over and over and get the same results over and over. I don't understand why anyone is foolish enough to believe this time would be different.

Your all nuts.

I don't know what was slipped into the water this week, but the knee-jerk reactivity from both camps is astonishing. No wonder people aren't impressed with the recommendations of early adopters, your too dam fickle. You aim to idealistically high, then run like a scalded dog when there's the least sign of turbulence.

If everyone is that worried; Blu-ray nuts, buy a HD DVD player, they're cheap, HD DVD nuts, Blu-ray will be affordable soon enough, with set-specs, when that happens buy one. Buy some movies.

Did anyone really think HDM was going to unseat SDM before the end of 09 at the earliest??? Sheesh!

I hate to say this but HD DVD supporters have been suckered into a format that Microsoft supports for the sole purpose of derailing the mass adoption of ONE HD format. Judging from you guys' opinions, Microsoft achieved their goal.

Its still not too late for Blu-ray to win. I am holding out hope that Universal will come to their senses and adopt Blu-ray at CES 2008. If Universal won't support Blu-ray then, all bets are off.

How would the BD releases have looked if they didnt have to compete against the the quality discs from HD camp?

If it wernt for HD camp and MS included. People would have been happy with the early Mpeg2 BD25 releases.

The biggest problem isnt really the format war. Its that a very large group of people dont care about HD. They are happy with DVD.

Many HDTV buyers dont buy HDTV for its PQ, but for its flat size.

Many bought DVDs not for great PQ and AQ, but for they prefered discs instead of tapes.

How would the BD releases have looked if they didnt have to compete against the the quality discs from HD camp?

If it wernt for HD camp and MS included. People would have been happy with the early Mpeg2 BD25 releases.

If it weren't for HD DVD Blu-ray would have been released when ready which would've meant h.264 or VC-1 titles from the beginning.

How would the BD releases have looked if they didnt have to compete against the the quality discs from HD camp?

If it wernt for HD camp and MS included. People would have been happy with the early Mpeg2 BD25 releases.


HD DVD is the best thing that has happened to Blu-Ray

Quality: Blu-Ray launches... has mediocre reception. 25 GB coupled with MPEG-II is blamed. So to compete they actually finish the 50 GB disc and use AVC or VC-1, both of which are better than MPEG-II.

Price: HD DVD players were all priced ~$500 below Blu-Ray when Blu-Ray launched. If it wasn't for the strong competition Blu-Ray players would all still be $1000 with the exception of the PS3

I hate to say this but HD DVD supporters have been suckered into a format that Microsoft supports for the sole purpose of derailing the mass adoption of ONE HD format.

Wow. I must look into getting stock in those hot tinfoil hat producing companies. Seems like business is booming.

HD DVD is the best thing that has happened to Blu-Ray

Price: HD DVD players were all priced ~$500 below Blu-Ray when Blu-Ray launched. If it wasn't for the strong competition Blu-Ray players would all still be $1000 with the exception of the PS3

No one is arguing that.

In less than one year Sony has dropped their available BD player from $1000.00 to less than $500.00 :eek: Ouch!

At this rate BD players will be at $250.00 at years end to keep up and HD DVD player probably at $150.00


War over? (http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Industry_Trends/Disc_Sales/Sonys_New_Blu-ray_Marketing_Message:_Format_War_is_Over/468) I think not! Because if it is why bother lowering the price this looooow?

Its not the best thing that happend to Bluray, more the best thing that happend to Bluray consumers.

I think the BDA rather would want a market without HD DVD.

I think the BDA rather would want a market without HD DVD.

Curse you HD DVD!!!

In less than one year Sony has dropped their available BD player from $1000.00 to less than $500.00 :eek: Ouch!


Blu-ray suffers from bad specs though - HD DVD does not. And I'm not talking about bitrates ;)

Clarification:

HD DVD has mandatory networking, etc. The Internet did not die, partially due to mandatory networking in home PCs.

Problem with BD and HD DVD is that they are two paths rather than one single level up. However, there is a next step for consumers to go. Already today, people shoot photos and movies with digital cameras and camcorders, and they can with ease handle these media since they are all just a bunch of files that the user can transfer between computers or convert into different file formats.

With the advent of faster CPUs like Core Duo etc, already today, more and more people are possessing what is necessary for watching HD movies in their homes; high-speed Internet connection, fast dual core CPUs and HD displays. People are really just waiting for the content providers to figure things out. Til then I'll stick to HD DVD and its mandatory specs. :)

I hate to say this but HD DVD supporters have been suckered into a format that Microsoft supports for the sole purpose of derailing the mass adoption of ONE HD format. Judging from you guys' opinions, Microsoft achieved their goal.



I hate to say this, and it's nothing personal- but you just don't seem to get 'it'.
It's not about one or the other. People, especially it seems Blu-ray-ites (with Bill Hunt front and center) seem to believe that HD DVD is hindering adoption when all the evidence, day after day, points to the fact that most people couldn't care less about higher definition.
The defintion they see is just fine, thank you. Believe it or not, most non enthusiasts (i.e. the majority) do NOT want to have to invest in new gear...no matter how much it costs, when they have just gotten the hang of what they own. Most people do not want to replace their collections of software. How many people that are non techno dweebs do you know that actually enjoy upgrading versions of their software or operating systems? "Normal" people don't want to get mired in a bog of trying to learn new terminology, when they are perfectly content with what they have. 1080P, HDMI, 24p, Lossless, DTS cores...don't you guys see that most people don't want to learn what this stuff means because they just don't care?

Why is this so difficult for the Bd-centric to understand?

Both these formats are technological refinements of a widely available standard. They appeal to a small % of the population who appreicate these refinements, and it will be this way for many years, regardless if there were one, two, or twenty different formats.

WAKE UP, SMELL THE COFFEE , AND JUST DEAL WITH IT.
And stop asking the format that is blazing the trail as far as pricing, features, efficency, and variety of software to go away so the one that has consistently over promised and under achieved can be annointed 'the one'.

I hate to say this, and it's nothing personal- but you just don't seem to get 'it'.
It's not about one or the other. People, especially it seems Blu-ray-ites (with Bill Hunt front and center) seem to believe that HD DVD is hindering adoption when all the evidence, day after day, points to the fact that most people couldn't care less about higher definition.
The defintion they see is just fine, thank you. Believe it or not, most non enthusiasts (i.e. the majority) do NOT want to have to invest in new gear...no matter how much it costs, when they have just gotten the hang of what they own. Most people do not want to replace their collections of software. How many people that are non techno dweebs do you know that actually enjoy upgrading versions of their software or operating systems? "Normal" people don't want to get mired in a bog of trying to learn new terminology, when they are perfectly content with what they have. 1080P, HDMI, 24p, Lossless, DTS cores...don't you guys see that most people don't want to learn what this stuff means because they just don't care?

Why is this so difficult for the Bd-centric to understand?

Both these formats are technological refinements of a widely available standard. They appeal to a small % of the population who appreicate these refinements, and it will be this way for many years, regardless if there were one, two, or twenty different formats.

WAKE UP, SMELL THE COFFEE , AND JUST DEAL WITH IT.
And stop asking the format that is blazing the trail as far as pricing, features, efficency, and variety of software to go away so the one that has consistently over promised and under achieved can be annointed 'the one'.


Are you telling me you DON'T see all the news posts and forum posts on sites that aren't dedicated to home theaters like this one that say, "I won't buy into either format until there is just one?" I see this sentiment all the time. In fact, I would argue that the reason DVD is "good enough" isn't going to be cost, but uncertainty on the stability of EITHER format when NEITHER format clearly wins.

So yeah, I disagree with your entire sentiment. I just see way too many people stating otherwise to believe your sentiment.

So yes, the format that came first set the pricing for players at $500 and discs at $25-30. BD came along and did that whole competition thing, bringing out PS3's for $600 (a pricepoint that the PS3 was coming out at all along) and $30-35 discs (a pricepoint they were doing all along). Omg. On sale, they're at $20-27 for both formats. No difference. When HD DVD first came out, they had lowered the price of discs on Amazon to $22-29. BD came along and suddenly we're seeing 20 discs.

Thank God for Blu-ray or HD DVD'd still be 22-27 discs and $500 A2's and $800 XA2's, right? Oh wait, you're not spinning it that way, are you? You want us to believe that it was all Blu-ray pricedrops that we have HD DVD to thank for and not the other way around.

Except that I noticed a sharp increase in BD's sold that was followed by an unannounced but completely desperate move by Toshiba to lower prices on both the A2 and XA2 to levels below the only recently announced (at that time) A20. Hell, if they had known they were going to do with the XA2 what they did, I doubt they would have bothered to even develop the A20. So it seems pretty easily assumed to be a cause and effect:

Blu-ray was trouncing HD DVD in sales at the time (when Fox and MGM were still doing releases) around 4 to 1 and easily surpassed HD DVD's Since Inception numbers without breaking a sweat, SO Toshiba slashed the prices on its players. Otherwise, Toshiba would have been content with $500 A2's and $600 A20's vs the $600 PS3 and $800 XA2's vs $800 Sammy's - $1500 Pioneers.

Sure, Toshiba did the drop. Because they had to.

Features... features. You value "advanced features." Picture in picture, I guess. I value lossless audio. One format has more lossless audio than the other. I choose better audio over picture in picture I'll use once, maybe twice, in the entire time I own the disc. Better audio I'll use EVERY time. Superior features are the features I'll use every time I watch the disc. Universal, why is End of Days your only lossless audio disc? Paramount? Nada on either format. WB, selectively. Compare that to Sony, Disney, Fox, and MGM. Lossless always. Lionsgate... some of the time. Hell, even WB is starting to put LPCM or TrueHD on their BD's. Rumors say Paramount will start to do the same for both formats. But is Universal? Now you can argue that the HD DVD players can technically do lossless audio, but if yoru content producers aren't doing it, it might as well not be there. Just as BD-J is technically there to be used, just not PiP, but it's not used, so you think it doesn't count. But I think it does.

BD is trailblazing on lossless audio. HD DVD was content to have higher bit lossy. Hence, Dolby TrueHD 2.0, mostly good enough. Until they realized BD was using LPCM like crazy. Then, suddenly they work overtime to get TrueHD up to 5.1 on the player, though it's not in the spec.

HD DVD brags about red lasers until BD talks up blue lasers. Suddenly, HD DVD's blue. HD DVD brags up smaller disc sizes, but BD talks up larger disc sizes to give us more room for 1080p encodes and lossless audio. Suddenly, HD DVD is talking about 45 and then 51 gig discs TL discs that have yet to materialize.

When video quality and audio quality by the BD encoders becomes mature six months after the premature launch of Blu-ray last year, HD DVD switches to the, "Consumer's choice" because they were selling 2 to 1 over BD last year. When BD easily surpasses the "Since Inception" numbers and BD trounces HD DVD over 2 to 1, HD DVD switches to players sold numbers and promises of advanced online features. To date, no disc sold includes online features. One will in a month. By the time it becomes relevant, new BD players will offer this feature.

Even more damning, more likely than not, the best selling BD player (the PS3) will easily and readily meet the requirements to become a BD Live capable player. In which case, up to 90% of all BD players will instantly be BD Live, having superior features to HD DVD's players.

Hmmmm... have I missed anything? That's why HD DVD needs to die. There ARE plenty of people out there waiting on one format or the other to win. And everything you say HD DVD was trailblazing in... well, most of it, I'd argue was reactionary to Blu-ray. On their own, Blu-ray is superior in sales, in specs, in longterm features, studio support, and CE support. Hell, it's even superior in PC industry support.

So yes, if I am interested in having high def discs to buy instead of pseudo-high def downloads by Microsoft or Apple to download, then I am going to push for the superior format to remove the inferior format from the market. Especially when quite a few of those people who BOUGHT into the inferior format due to price will wind up paying about the same as they would have initially for just the more expensive when they buy BOTH players. I know I did.

Also, you should keep in mind that even though it may be good for us the consumers that players are dropping like rocks, these businesses are in this to make money. If prices drop too fast and there is no money to be made in this sector, then they could as likely decide the whole enterprise is not worth the investment and go back to manufacturing $0 profit DVD players than make $0 profit (and risky) HD DVD or BD players.

So no, I'd rather player costs and disc costs not go down too much if it ensures longterm profitability (and a future) for one (or both) of these formats. Call me sympathetic to the corporations if you like, but I can't see them doing high def for charity.

Even if HD DVD dies tomorrow it still wouldnt help BR. Most of the Average consumers out there still will not drop $500 on a BR player and $25 for a Disc.

Also most of the average consumers WILL NOT run out and start replacing the SD DVDS with BR disc. Sure you see post HERE that say "I am waiting to buy once the war is over" but thats here not everywhere.

People think that once HD DVD (if it does) dies BR will just start selling like Hot Cakes and that just isnt true. You have to remember the average consumer does not have alot of disposable income like us on here to by en expensive player just to watch HD movies. Not going to happen.

SD DVD to them is just fine and they can buy the new movies for $13.99 when they first come out compared to $20 - $25 for HD disc

Plus the average consumer is just happy with their upscale 1080I dvd player.

I hate to say this but HD DVD supporters have been suckered into a format that Microsoft supports for the sole purpose of derailing the mass adoption of ONE HD format. Judging from you guys' opinions, Microsoft achieved their goal.

Its still not too late for Blu-ray to win. I am holding out hope that Universal will come to their senses and adopt Blu-ray at CES 2008. If Universal won't support Blu-ray then, all bets are off.

I hate to say this but HD DVD Blu-ray supporters have been suckered into a format that Microsoft Sony supports for the sole purpose of derailing the mass adoption of ONE HD format creating a next-gen optical cartel, and limiting competition. Judging from you guys' opinions, Microsoft Sony achieved their goal.

Its still not too late for Blu-ray HD DVD to win. I am holding out hope that Universal Disney/Fox will come to their senses and adopt Blu-ray HD DVD at CES 2008. If Universal Disney/Fox won't support Blu-ray HD DVD then, all bets are off.

There, now do you see that this cuts both ways, and that there is more than one viewpoint on this? Of course, my guess is you do not. :rolleyes:

The average consumer - Joe Public - he sure is throwing a wrench into the HDD market isn't he? Without him, HDD will go nowheres. It will mimic LD which did last for 17 years and blazed a trail that DVD followed - better PQ and better AQ and better pricing. But LD was never a mainstream product.

But Joe Public doesn't know and as has been pointed out - doesn't care about features, spec's , lossless audio (what a joke - how many consumers have DD 5.1?).

Last year 13 million HDTV's sold. We are up to almost 30 million homes in the USA having an HDTV. How is it that between CBL and SAT, there are only approx. 2 million homes with HD STB's? What? the other 28 million have OTA? No. Most people that bought an HDTV don't have an HD source for it. This has been well documented.

If you go out and but a 37" or higher TV, you get an HDTV whether you want one or not. That is what is being made - that is what is sellling in the stores. Joe likes the flat panel design - real futuristic - just like the Jetsons.

And again as has been pointed out, Joe loves buying DVD players for $50 and movies for $5.00. And many Joe's do not want to play the game that the studios have started, years ago, of buying the same movie in a different format. He has seen all the older movies - numerous times. He knows the storyline - by heart in many cases - and right now money is at a preminum, especially with the price of gas and the impending doom of winter fuel bills.

The format war - 2 fleas arguing who owns the dog!

Are you telling me you DON'T see all the news posts and forum posts on sites that aren't dedicated to home theaters like this one that say, "I won't buy into either format until there is just one?" I see this sentiment all the time. In fact, I would argue that the reason DVD is "good enough" isn't going to be cost, but uncertainty on the stability of EITHER format when NEITHER format clearly wins.

So yeah, I disagree with your entire sentiment. I just see way too many people stating otherwise to believe your sentiment.

So yes, the format that came first set the pricing for players at $500 and discs at $25-30. BD came along and did that whole competition thing, bringing out PS3's for $600 (a pricepoint that the PS3 was coming out at all along) and $30-35 discs (a pricepoint they were doing all along). Omg. On sale, they're at $20-27 for both formats. No difference. When HD DVD first came out, they had lowered the price of discs on Amazon to $22-29. BD came along and suddenly we're seeing 20 discs.

Thank God for Blu-ray or HD DVD'd still be 22-27 discs and $500 A2's and $800 XA2's, right? Oh wait, you're not spinning it that way, are you? You want us to believe that it was all Blu-ray pricedrops that we have HD DVD to thank for and not the other way around.

Except that I noticed a sharp increase in BD's sold that was followed by an unannounced but completely desperate move by Toshiba to lower prices on both the A2 and XA2 to levels below the only recently announced (at that time) A20. Hell, if they had known they were going to do with the XA2 what they did, I doubt they would have bothered to even develop the A20. So it seems pretty easily assumed to be a cause and effect:

Blu-ray was trouncing HD DVD in sales at the time (when Fox and MGM were still doing releases) around 4 to 1 and easily surpassed HD DVD's Since Inception numbers without breaking a sweat, SO Toshiba slashed the prices on its players. Otherwise, Toshiba would have been content with $500 A2's and $600 A20's vs the $600 PS3 and $800 XA2's vs $800 Sammy's - $1500 Pioneers.

Sure, Toshiba did the drop. Because they had to.

Features... features. You value "advanced features." Picture in picture, I guess. I value lossless audio. One format has more lossless audio than the other. I choose better audio over picture in picture I'll use once, maybe twice, in the entire time I own the disc. Better audio I'll use EVERY time. Superior features are the features I'll use every time I watch the disc. Universal, why is End of Days your only lossless audio disc? Paramount? Nada on either format. WB, selectively. Compare that to Sony, Disney, Fox, and MGM. Lossless always. Lionsgate... some of the time. Hell, even WB is starting to put LPCM or TrueHD on their BD's. Rumors say Paramount will start to do the same for both formats. But is Universal? Now you can argue that the HD DVD players can technically do lossless audio, but if yoru content producers aren't doing it, it might as well not be there. Just as BD-J is technically there to be used, just not PiP, but it's not used, so you think it doesn't count. But I think it does.

BD is trailblazing on lossless audio. HD DVD was content to have higher bit lossy. Hence, Dolby TrueHD 2.0, mostly good enough. Until they realized BD was using LPCM like crazy. Then, suddenly they work overtime to get TrueHD up to 5.1 on the player, though it's not in the spec.

HD DVD brags about red lasers until BD talks up blue lasers. Suddenly, HD DVD's blue. HD DVD brags up smaller disc sizes, but BD talks up larger disc sizes to give us more room for 1080p encodes and lossless audio. Suddenly, HD DVD is talking about 45 and then 51 gig discs TL discs that have yet to materialize.

When video quality and audio quality by the BD encoders becomes mature six months after the premature launch of Blu-ray last year, HD DVD switches to the, "Consumer's choice" because they were selling 2 to 1 over BD last year. When BD easily surpasses the "Since Inception" numbers and BD trounces HD DVD over 2 to 1, HD DVD switches to players sold numbers and promises of advanced online features. To date, no disc sold includes online features. One will in a month. By the time it becomes relevant, new BD players will offer this feature.

Even more damning, more likely than not, the best selling BD player (the PS3) will easily and readily meet the requirements to become a BD Live capable player. In which case, up to 90% of all BD players will instantly be BD Live, having superior features to HD DVD's players.

Hmmmm... have I missed anything? That's why HD DVD needs to die. There ARE plenty of people out there waiting on one format or the other to win. And everything you say HD DVD was trailblazing in... well, most of it, I'd argue was reactionary to Blu-ray. On their own, Blu-ray is superior in sales, in specs, in longterm features, studio support, and CE support. Hell, it's even superior in PC industry support.

So yes, if I am interested in having high def discs to buy instead of pseudo-high def downloads by Microsoft or Apple to download, then I am going to push for the superior format to remove the inferior format from the market. Especially when quite a few of those people who BOUGHT into the inferior format due to price will wind up paying about the same as they would have initially for just the more expensive when they buy BOTH players. I know I did.

Also, you should keep in mind that even though it may be good for us the consumers that players are dropping like rocks, these businesses are in this to make money. If prices drop too fast and there is no money to be made in this sector, then they could as likely decide the whole enterprise is not worth the investment and go back to manufacturing $0 profit DVD players than make $0 profit (and risky) HD DVD or BD players.

So no, I'd rather player costs and disc costs not go down too much if it ensures longterm profitability (and a future) for one (or both) of these formats. Call me sympathetic to the corporations if you like, but I can't see them doing high def for charity.

Your missing the entire point. Your an AV propeller head. Regular guy on the street could care less about lossless,TrueHD,blah blah blah. Geeks think they are more important than they really are.

Point out a shimmering staircase on frame 44890824 of a movie to a regular joe,
and see the look you get.

Joe cares about

Does it look ok? Does it sound ok? Is it cheap?

Your all nuts.

I don't know what was slipped into the water this week, but the knee-jerk reactivity from both camps is astonishing. No wonder people aren't impressed with the recommendations of early adopters, your too dam fickle. You aim to idealistically high, then run like a scalded dog when there's the least sign of turbulence.

If everyone is that worried; Blu-ray nuts, buy a HD DVD player, they're cheap, HD DVD nuts, Blu-ray will be affordable soon enough, with set-specs, when that happens buy one. Buy some movies.

Did anyone really think HDM was going to unseat SDM before the end of 09 at the earliest??? Sheesh!
Jeez, there ARE a lot of wusses around here. It took color TV years and years and years to catch on. Why? It was expensive. Both formats (but especially HD DVD) will be steadily going down in price. Relax, already. Remember: however all this turns out, we'll laugh about it in 100 years! :p

vancouver, I'm not sure I follow you.

- You say you've been 'wrong and stupid.' What would have been in your opinion the correct and smart thing to do?

And more importantly, what are you going to do in the future?

(I'm honestly interested to know.)

I hate to say this but HD DVD supporters have been suckered into a format that Microsoft supports for the sole purpose of derailing the mass adoption of ONE HD format. Judging from you guys' opinions, Microsoft achieved their goal.

Its still not too late for Blu-ray to win. I am holding out hope that Universal will come to their senses and adopt Blu-ray at CES 2008. If Universal won't support Blu-ray then, all bets are off.

You'll get slated for posting that but it's 100% true.

Low quality HD downloads will be the winner.

MS are sitting back rubbing their hands.

They suckered you in.

Your missing the entire point. Your an AV propeller head. Regular guy on the street could care less about lossless,TrueHD,blah blah blah. Geeks think they are more important than they really are.

Point out a shimmering staircase on frame 44890824 of a movie to a regular joe,
and see the look you get.

Joe cares about

Does it look ok? Does it sound ok?

Close . . . .

Joe Cares about PRICE!

First, second, last, you name it. His shopping list has one item on it as far as importance:

See above

Brilliant thread title. :) Implying in a roundabout way that others may be wrong or even stupid for not dropping the cash on both HD formats was a stroke of genius. :p

However, I expect your sentiment will be echoed quite a bit around here in the coming months as the BD crowd will find last refuge in preaching for parity (ie. format neutral future) as if you are not a movie fan unless you buy into both formats (yes, I have seen that argument made several times on AVS.)

Dual platform is realistic for the .5% of well heeled hardcore AV and home theater enthusiasts, but it’s not a realistic concept for the other 99.5% of the population.

For those of you to whom it applies, enjoy owning both players. But please don’t come on here and try and convert everyone else to do as you have.

I own both and don't who or if anyone wins. By the end of the year my top ten favorite movies of all time will all be out on either HD-DVD or BLU-RAY. It's not my fault some execs couldn't come up with a single format so I'm not going to punish myself because of their mistake.
It's not to big a deal to buy movies in either a blue case or a red case I don't see what the big deal is.

"If it weren't for HD DVD Blu-ray would have been released when ready which would've meant h.264 or VC-1 titles from the beginning"


Yea a release in 2011 with 2500$ players.

Joe Cares about PRICE!


Which probably means SD DVD is going to be the market leader for a long long time...

Which probably means SD DVD is going to be the market leader for a long long time...

You got that right!

Think the studios are really serious about HDD?

See them releasing, day and date, HDD's with the DVD's for every release?

I can understand why BD may not be doing it. Totally new format. Requires a total refit of a pressing plant (read: expensive).

But HD DVD is supposed to be just a tad more to press than DVD and no refit required. Just some mods.

So how many HDD's are getting released in a month? 20, 35, 50?

How many for DVD? 100, 200, 300?

Ever get the feeling that the war is being fought with pea shooters and spit balls as opposed to bullets and bombs?

Close . . . .

Joe Cares about PRICE!

First, second, last, you name it. His shopping list has one item on it as far as importance:

See above

My post edited :D

vancouver, I'm not sure I follow you.

- You say you've been 'wrong and stupid.' What would have been in your opinion the correct and smart thing to do?

And more importantly, what are you going to do in the future?

(I'm honestly interested to know.)

I am speaking for myself only here. The right thing to do going forward would be to buy into both formats and enjoy all the HD material I can while I can simply because like everyone here on both sides of the fence I enjoy HD content and watching movies. As much arguing that goes on here we have more in common then both sides want to to admit.

It would have been "more correct and smart" to not post so many posts about defending 1 format. If I wanted to invest timing doing something like that I should of hung out in the SD DVD setion trying to convince people to buy into 1 or both HD formats.


In all honesty the best thing we have going for us is two formats...twice the promotion, twice the marketing strategy, twice the publicity to simply get people to understand HD....let alone two different HD formats.

IMO the optical disk is just a delivery system for the content.

the future will be in taking the content from all different sources, including bd and hd dvd, and putting it on one server. home movies, broadcasts, downloads, and hd disc. it doesn't matter how it got there.

IMO neither hi. def. format ever had a chance of replacing dvd. look at what is happening with music. cd is slowly going away.

hd dvd content is always going to get my $ because of the encodes that provide smaller files for the same presentation quality. bd could go that route too and provide more value through extra features. i currently see hd dvd as a better path to the future. if studios don't provide efficient encodes of hi. def. then standard def. downloads could kill off hi. def. if joe public is more interested in the convenience of download then the quality of hi. def, then all the consumer money could go to sd download technology.

IMO what we all want is hi. def. regardless of the delivery system. the worst thing that could happen is that sd downloads take over the bulk of the spending on home theater. imo the huge bd encodes cannot compete with sd and are therefore a tangent that leads to nowhere.

putting everything on a central server means the ultimate in flexibility. for example, i could download a pcm audio track if i want it even if it was not included with the original shiny disc.

IMO for either format to compete, they need to implement mmc and focus on efficient encodes to keep file sizes down.

Brilliant thread title. :) Implying in a roundabout way that others may be wrong or even stupid for not dropping the cash on both HD formats was a stroke of genius. :p

However, I expect your sentiment will be echoed quite a bit around here in the coming months as the BD crowd will find last refuge in preaching for parity (ie. format neutral future) as if you are not a movie fan unless you buy into both formats (yes, I have seen that argument made several times on AVS.)

Dual platform is realistic for the .5% of well heeled hardcore AV and home theater enthusiasts, but it’s not a realistic concept for the other 99.5% of the population.

For those of you to whom it applies, enjoy owning both players. But please don’t come on here and try and convert everyone else to do as you have.

I think you did get what I was saying, or I wasnt clear in posting what I thought. I think it was stupid of me to worry, and post so much in defene of 1 format, when its the HD format (how ever many will come or last) i should be most concerned about to over take SD.

If you like HD content and can only afford, or only think its smart to pic one side...all the power too you.

Close . . . .

Joe Cares about PRICE!

First, second, last, you name it. His shopping list has one item on it as far as importance:

See above

Joe is not exactly a one-stop kind of guy. Considering there are what, 300 million plus people in this country now, there isn't any exact model of what an average person is like anymore. Everyone can point out anecdotal evidence that points otherwise when dealing with situations like this. An average "joe" that I know is my cousin, mid twenties, just married and having his first kid. Yet he's bought into Blu-ray via the PS3 and is loving it. He's a teacher and only a few years into it so he doesn't make much. But he's got a nice 60" HDTV and did his research before he bought into things. Price wasn't a factor, it just meant he didn't jump in right away.

My father is an average joe as well. He's got a 34" HDTV and I gave him my old Samsung Blu-ray player. Be it via cable or the blu-ray disc, everything looks the same to him. He can't imagine why anyone would spend money on HD at all. He sees no difference in how the Discovery channel looks between SD and HD.

Price is not the one factor for "the average joe", nor is content, brand name or anything else. There is no one-stop thing that will get mass adoption.

I am speaking for myself only here. The right thing to do going forward would be to buy into both formats and enjoy all the HD material I can while I can simply because like everyone here on both sides of the fence I enjoy HD content and watching movies. As much arguing that goes on here we have more in common then both sides want to to admit.

It would have been "more correct and smart" to not post so many posts about defending 1 format. If I wanted to invest timing doing something like that I should of hung out in the SD DVD setion trying to convince people to buy into 1 or both HD formats.


In all honesty the best thing we have going for us is two formats...twice the promotion, twice the marketing strategy, twice the publicity to simply get people to understand HD....let alone two different HD formats.

You speak as a movie lover and a lover of HD. I can relate to that, as I too fall into this category.

But at the same time, BECAUSE I am an EA, I am now on my 4th round of buying the same movie - only in a better quality format:

1. VHS
2. LD
3. DVD
4. HD DVD

So how many HD DVD's do I own? 12 of which 3 were free and 1 (KK) I bought used for $12. How many will I buy this year? Probably another 5 or 6. I do have over 350 DVD's though.

I had HDTV in 1999. How many of you can say the same thing?

I have HD CBL - love it. Only watch HD - not a snob - I have a nice 32" CRT TV in my bedroom where I watch SD if at all. And I pay around $105/mo for CBL and HS Internet.

I have seen Cars, POTC - DMC and a host of other movies in HD that are not available on my choosen format. And the key word again is PRICE. It costs me nothing over what I am paying now to see HD movies. I watch about 5 HD movies a week - most are not available on HDD. Most are in OAR and DD5.1. Saw ALL the Star Wars movies this way.

I get the feeling that some here have more money than they know what to do with and God bless you. It's your money - you spend it as you see fit.

But if the objective is to watch movies in HD . . . HDD is a very expensive method of doing it, IMO.

I hate to say this but HD DVD supporters have been suckered into a format that Microsoft supports for the sole purpose of derailing the mass adoption of ONE HD format. Judging from you guys' opinions, Microsoft achieved their goal.

Its still not too late for Blu-ray to win. I am holding out hope that Universal will come to their senses and adopt Blu-ray at CES 2008. If Universal won't support Blu-ray then, all bets are off.

Funny. I find it's the BD supporter's that are the "suckers".

By the end of the year my top ten favorite movies of all time will all be out on either HD-DVD or BLU-RAY.
Interesting. I'm still waiting for some of mine to come out on DVD.

IMO the optical disk is just a delivery system for the content.
Bingo. Best comment in the thread. That is why DVD will stay king-not because of the war, or any other silliness, but because its about the message, not the messenger.
Both formats are destined to be niche products, and I'm comfortable with that.
J

Both formats are destined to be niche products, and I'm comfortable with that.
J


Im ok with that too, if it doesnt mean studios arnt interested in nicha market and will eventually drop them. I hope they start to make enough money that its worth while for them to keep producing HD content even if the eventual goal is not to replace SD.

Funny. I find it's the BD supporter's that are the "suckers".

Why's that? I'm probably four times the sucker than the average blu-ray sucker since I have four players, so I'm genuinely interested in why I'm a super sucker.

Im ok with that too, if it doesnt mean studios arnt interested in nicha market and will eventually drop them. I hope they start to make enough money that its worth while for them to keep producing HD content even if the eventual goal is not to replace SD.

the studios could make some money from me if they all released efficient vc1 encodes on hd dvd. if they choose not to make that money, IMO that is their problem. the studios themselves are the problem with hi.def. they should get out of the business of telling us what kind of player we have to buy and fully support hi.def. by whatever delivery system people want to use.

if hi. def. sales are bad it is the fault of the studios for not fully supporting hi. def and therefore scaring people away.we have done our part by buying discs on either format.

Why's that? I'm probably four times the sucker than the average blu-ray sucker since I have four players, so I'm genuinely interested in why I'm a super sucker.


Because I think its delusional at worst and paranoid at best to assume I was "suckered" by MS to buy HD-DVD for the sole purpose of them trying to destroy optical.

You guy's are so set on having all or nothing its humorous. Plus the accusation some make is astounding. Consumer's are too "stupid" to have choices? As if Blu-Ray wins the war they somehow have defeated the "evil empire" of online download service forever :rolleyes:

I think Sony suckered you and SyHD into paying for overpriced optical media format that will equate to UMD v2.0. A format that will only be used in PS3 players in a year or two. That is if other studio's besides Sony still support it.


You're clearly entitled to your opinion just as I am mine.

I think people here are going to have to get used to the idea of two niche formats co-existing. As long as I can easily get content at an affordable price I don't care.

I have had lots of guests over to watch HD movies and they all think the HD looks great. Has anyone of them run out to purchase a player? Well, first they would have to buy an HDTV so the answer is a resounding NO!

Cheers,

Grant

I think people here are going to have to get used to the idea of two niche formats co-existing. As long as I can easily get content at an affordable price I don't care.

I have had lots of guests over to watch HD movies and they all think the HD looks great. Has anyone of them run out to purchase a player? Well, first they would have to buy an HDTV so the answer is a resounding NO!

Cheers,

Grant

same here. also many comments about the picture/sound being better then the public theater. but, i know people who are buying up vhs at garage sales. they really don't care about the format as long as they have it to watch whenever they want.

People who don't believe that the format war is making a lot of people turn away is not dealing with reality. True, it may not be the only reason, but added to others, it is enough to dissuade anyone but the die-hard home-movie-geeks (and masochists) to delay their decision.

When it comes down to it, all these ce devices compete for the same pool of entertainment dollars that the masses will spend. Some of that is impulse buying, hence lower prices pulling people in, but it doesn't take much to put a stop to the impulse buying JQP to put that box back on the shelf.

The HDTV buying is just starting to pick up steam with 42" plasmas now selling below 999 in B&Ms. Most of the conditions are right for some HDM uptake.

However, both formats seem to be revising their year-end projected unit player sales, slashing them by half. This is not just a simple cannibalizing of the same market. It is more drastic than that -- the combined market appears to not grow the way it should have.

There's probably a good reason for this. I don't believe for one moment that people as industry-savvy as MSFT and SNE and toshiba don't realize this. As to why this happened, well, there's lots of theories floating around. The ones about MSFT seems to be rather interesting and logical.

Or the theory of watching HD on CBL, SAT or OTA. Another "speed bump" in the road to HDD's success.

People who don't believe that the format war is making a lot of people turn away is not dealing with reality. True, it may not be the only reason, but added to others, it is enough to dissuade anyone but the die-hard home-movie-geeks (and masochists) to delay their decision.

When it comes down to it, all these ce devices compete for the same pool of entertainment dollars that the masses will spend. Some of that is impulse buying, hence lower prices pulling people in, but it doesn't take much to put a stop to the impulse buying JQP to put that box back on the shelf.

The HDTV buying is just starting to pick up steam with 42" plasmas now selling below 999 in B&Ms. Most of the conditions are right for some HDM uptake.

However, both formats seem to be revising their year-end projected unit player sales, slashing them by more than half. This is not just a simple cannibalizing of the same market. It is more drastic than that -- the combined market appears to not grow the way it should have.

There's probably a good reason for this. I don't believe for one moment that people as industry-savvy as MSFT and SNE and toshiba don't realize this. As to why this happened, well, there's lots of theories floating around. The ones about MSFT seems to be rather interesting and logical.

imo the reason is fear that content won't be available for the format you pick.

studios are creating that fear.

the fix is for all the studiios to get fully behind both formats.

also, fully support mmc so that it doesn't matter whcih type of disc people buy.

once the content is on a server it doesn't matter what the original disc looked like.

even if one or the other dominates long term it would not matter as far as buying the content becasue you just need a cheap combo drive to transfer to the server.

Personally, I'm getting tired of these new arguments from the HD DVD camp that "neither format will win," "both will forever be niche formats," "dual-format players are the miracle cure," "every studio should be neutral," etc.

It seems fairly obvious to me what's happening here. A lot of HD DVD supports are finally realizing that HD DVD is not winning, and in fact may not even be capable of winning anymore. However, instead of just coming out and admitting they might have made a mistake and chosen the wrong format, they are now arguing these variations of the "both formats are losing" idea. They have such an irrational attitude toward Blu-ray that they would rather see both formats die, or forever coexist in an unending stalemate, than Blu-ray win. It's absurd.

Personally, I'm getting tired of these new arguments from the HD DVD camp that "neither format will win," "both will forever be niche formats," "dual-format players are the miracle cure," "every studio should be neutral," etc.

It seems fairly obvious to me what's happening here. A lot of HD DVD supports are finally realizing that HD DVD is not winning, and in fact may not even be capable of winning anymore. However, instead of just coming out and admitting they might have made a mistake and chosen the wrong format, they are now arguing these variations of the "both formats are losing" idea. They have such an irrational attitude toward Blu-ray that they would rather see both formats die, or forever coexist in an unending stalemate, than Blu-ray win. It's absurd.

Personally, I'm getting tired of people like you who have to have all or nothing.


It's fairly obvious that you guys want BD to succeed or no one else should. You can't fathom people actually having a choice. You realize BD can't win either so you decide to blame the people who chose what is best for themselves, not for you.

Why should I have to buy into BD? Just to please you? Please. Get over yourself and your purchase. Realize that not everyone wants what you have. I'm perfectly happy with HD-DVD. So why don't YOU stop buying BD and start supporting the format that people other than gamers support.

Personally, I'm getting tired of people like you who have to have all or nothing.

It's fairly obvious that you guys want BD to succeed or no one else should. You can't fathom people actually having a choice. You realize BD can't win either so you decide to blame the people who chose what is best for themselves, not for you.

Bingo!

Hit all nail and no thumb there...

Personally, I'm getting tired of people like you who have to have all or nothing.

It's fairly obvious that you guys want BD to succeed or no one else should. You can't fathom people actually having a choice. You realize BD can't win either so you decide to blame the people who chose what is best for themselves, not for you.
See, that's just it right there. Blu-ray can win, and in fact is winning, but you hate that idea so much that you refuse to acknowledge it, beyond all reason.

Why should I have to buy into BD? Just to please you? Please. Get over yourself and your purchase. Realize that not everyone wants what you have. I'm perfectly happy with HD-DVD. So why don't YOU stop buying BD and start supporting the format that people other than gamers support.
I'm tired of people wanting this divisive format war to continue forever. I don't need you to buy into Blu-ray, but it would be nice if people like you would stop acting like Blu-ray is not winning, that a Blu-ray victory would be the end of the world, and that it would somehow be better to have two formats forever than Blu-ray.

See, that's just it right there. Blu-ray can win, and in fact is winning, but you hate that idea so much that you refuse to acknowledge it, beyond all reason.

Winning(current) is not won(past tense).

I've seen plenty of games where one team leads in the first half but still loses the game. Should all games be cut short as soon as one team is in the lead?


I'm tired of people wanting this divisive format war to continue forever.

Tired of it only if it gives you the results you want.

I don't need you to buy into Blu-ray, but it would be nice if people like you would stop acting like Blu-ray is not winning, that a Blu-ray victory would be the end of the world, and that it would somehow be better to have two formats forever than Blu-ray.

Again, winning and won are two different things.

Is Blue-Ray winning right NOW. YES. I SteroMAdMAn has declared BD is winning right now!! Today!! Note the time and date people!! ;)

If Blu-Ray wins, will it be the end of the world? No. What makes you think that if the war were to continue it is the end of the world? I think it is because you know HD-DVD also has a chance of winning.

For some reason that is a thought allot of BD enthusiasts can't live with, more so than the other way around. I can live without HD-DVD in a BD world. Do I want to? Not really. I would rather see HD-DVD succeed. Would it be the end of MY world? Heck no.

It seems to me that most in your camp cannot say the same. They want BD to win or no one else.

I personally do not mind having two formats. I was an early adopter of DVD and I remember wanting video rental stores to rent DVDs and I also remember how slowly titles were released. If anything I believe the format "war" has accelerated the release of Hi Def media and I love Hi Def. One advantage DVD had over VHS back in the day was that DVD were released for sale at the same time they were released for rental. With VHS you had to wait for a few months in rental before you could purchase.

Personally, I'm getting tired of people like you who have to have all or nothing.


It's fairly obvious that you guys want BD to succeed or no one else should. You can't fathom people actually having a choice. You realize BD can't win either so you decide to blame the people who chose what is best for themselves, not for you.

Why should I have to buy into BD? Just to please you? Please. Get over yourself and your purchase. Realize that not everyone wants what you have. I'm perfectly happy with HD-DVD. So why don't YOU stop buying BD and start supporting the format that people other than gamers support.

I don't think you understand the average BD supporter.

I can be counted as one of the biggest BD fanboys on this board as judging by my post history, and I can say you are wrong at least on how you judge why I personally am supporting BD and want HD-DVD to go crawl under a rock.

You will just have to believe me on this because I am being honest here so let me explain. You can then attack me all you want but at least you will gain some insight into BD "fanboys" like myself because I have no reason to lie about these silly pillow fight wars we still have on here.

So, I have had this discussion in the past on here in the Blu-ray forums, and MOST of us that support Blu-ray and want HD-DVD to die are doing so not because of any brand or format loyalty, it's because we feel Blu-ray has by far the greatest chance of winning and if the war continues much longer, HD on disc itself will not survive other than niche. A large majority of people are sitting this whole thing out until there is a CLEAR winner, and that is a BAD THING for HD movies. I could care less if Blu-ray was called HD-DVD and was made by Toshiba, it has nothing to do with brand or format loyalty or online egos. It has to do with admitting to yourself that for this thing to really become a success, the war has to end, and the EASIEST way is to let the one holdout studio, Universal, go neutral, and walla, you then have one format that not only has the most sales, but ALL the studio support and 95% of the world's manufacturer's support. And it isn't even about Blu-ray. If the easiest and quickest way to get rid of one format were for Sony, Disney, Fox, MGM, Lionsgate, Panasonic, Samsung, Warner, Paramount, Pioneer, Philips to all 100% DROP Blu-ray tomorrow and focus completely on HD-DVD, I would support it. This is the truth.

The fact is Blu-ray is outselling HD-DVD in movies. Blu-ray has far more consumer electronics companies backing it. It has far more studios backing it. It has far more PC companies backing it. And it has a trojan horse in a game machine that isn't going away anytime soon. This is just the reality we live in.

For those reasons, I feel the easiest way to end a silly format war that is hurting consumer adoption and resulting in both formats becoming niche, is for Universal to go neutral. That's all it will take and that is where I place my bets, and that is why I support Blu-ray. It has nothing to do with brand loyalty and wanting "my" format to win. I have nothing to do with these companies, I could care less. But two formats is confusing even me and I am on top of these things--I hate to think what Joe six pack is thinking. And to be honest, if we are stuck with one format, I'd like it to be the one with the biggest discs and the highest bandwidth because I want them to crank things up as high as they can.

I agree with others on here that if we are to be stuck with two formats for too long, both will forever be niche because, in the movie/music world, consumers hate confusion and just want things simple. I really believe the BD supporters are more "One Format" supporters than anything. If HD-DVD had the advantage with corporate backing, then you'd see the same people like myself hoping BD would die so we can move on and get things rolling. 90% of the studios and manufacturers are on board, so let's get the other 10% and MOVE ON. That is more or less the BD supporter attitude. And listen if 90% of the studios/electronics manufacturers were backing HD-DVD, you'd see the same exactly people on the other side. You can choose to not believe this, but at least you'd have me on board for HD-DVD and railing against Blu-ray if the corporate backing situation was completely reversed. I'm just telling you the truth. Take it for what you will.

-

I've heard people say plenty of different things as to why they don't go HD other or in addition to their being two.

1) I have hundreds/thousands of DVDs, some I have yet watch, I'm sick of studios trying to make me change formats every 5-10 years.

2) I will maybe buy when a winner is decided, and the players are under $300 (for some under $200)

3) Eventually all the players will play both formats, I'm waiting for $300 or below hybrids.

4) The movies are too expensive, and all that's out is same top-forty crap that's been out on DVD two or three times over.

5) As soon as I waste money on HDM, the studios will all go downloadable with their content, they're just trying to make another buck off us while they still can.

6) HD DVD/ BD looks better, but not that much better, I'm sitting this one out.

Personally, I'm getting tired of these new arguments from the HD DVD camp that "neither format will win," "both will forever be niche formats," "dual-format players are the miracle cure," "every studio should be neutral," etc.

It seems fairly obvious to me what's happening here. A lot of HD DVD supports are finally realizing that HD DVD is not winning, and in fact may not even be capable of winning anymore. However, instead of just coming out and admitting they might have made a mistake and chosen the wrong format, they are now arguing these variations of the "both formats are losing" idea. They have such an irrational attitude toward Blu-ray that they would rather see both formats die, or forever coexist in an unending stalemate, than Blu-ray win. It's absurd.

I think what YOU are realizing is BD's clock is ticking. If a knockout punch does not come soon, bye bye HD optical formats.

I think what YOU are realizing is BD's clock is ticking. If a knockout punch does not come soon, bye bye HD optical formats.

Bye bye HD formats is NOT a good thing.

See, that's just it right there. Blu-ray can win, and in fact is winning, but you hate that idea so much that you refuse to acknowledge it, beyond all reason.

See my signature? I fully acknowledge that at this moment in time BD is winning the war. Oh, let's look at this winning issue . . .

BD has what? 7X or is it 10X the amount of players installed? But the best you can muster is a 2 to 1 lead in movie sales?


I'm tired of people wanting this divisive format war to continue forever. I don't need you to buy into Blu-ray, but it would be nice if people like you would stop acting like Blu-ray is not winning, that a Blu-ray victory would be the end of the world, and that it would somehow be better to have two formats forever than Blu-ray.

Well I am NOT tired of the format war. I love the format war! The price of players took such a nose dive due to the competition between the formats. You BD "supporters" should go and kiss the ground that Toshiba "walks on" because if not for them - you would be stuck with $1000 BD players and a $600 game console that doubles as a player.

It will be better for everyone meaning US the consumer if the war rages on. Faster development, lower pricing, attention to quality, the list is almost endless as to the benefits that the war has given us.

We HD DVD "supporters" don't have to win the war - we just have to stay a player in it. Too bad you BD guys don't feel the same.

Oh, I seem to remember an old story. Maybe you have heard of it?

The one about the tortoise and the hare? :D

Bye bye HD formats is NOT a good thing.

Perhaps not, but that is what change is about. Should it lead to VOD so be it, we cant really stop it.

I don't think you understand the average BD supporter.





Sorry. I don't think you understand the HD-DVD supporter either.

But if I'm going to be judged as being somehow "suckered" into buying HD-DVD. I'm going to turn it right around and give my judgment right back.

I don't think you understand the average BD supporter.

I can be counted as one of the biggest BD fanboys on this board as judging by my post history, and I can say you are wrong at least on how you judge why I personally am supporting BD and want HD-DVD to go crawl under a rock.

You will just have to believe me on this because I am being honest here so let me explain. You can then attack me all you want but at least you will gain some insight into BD "fanboys" like myself because I have no reason to lie about these silly pillow fight wars we still have on here.

So, I have had this discussion in the past on here in the Blu-ray forums, and MOST of us that support Blu-ray and want HD-DVD to die are doing so not because of any brand or format loyalty, it's because we feel Blu-ray has by far the greatest chance of winning and if the war continues much longer, HD on disc itself will not survive other than niche. A large majority of people are sitting this whole thing out until there is a CLEAR winner, and that is a BAD THING for HD movies. I could care less if Blu-ray was called HD-DVD and was made by Toshiba, it has nothing to do with brand or format loyalty or online egos. It has to do with admitting to yourself that for this thing to really become a success, the war has to end, and the EASIEST way is to let the one holdout studio, Universal, go neutral, and walla, you then have one format that not only has the most sales, but ALL the studio support and 95% of the world's manufacturer's support. And it isn't even about Blu-ray. If the easiest and quickest way to get rid of one format were for Sony, Disney, Fox, MGM, Lionsgate, Panasonic, Samsung, Warner, Paramount, Pioneer, Philips to all 100% DROP Blu-ray tomorrow and focus completely on HD-DVD, I would support it. This is the truth.

The fact is Blu-ray is outselling HD-DVD in movies. Blu-ray has far more consumer electronics companies backing it. It has far more studios backing it. It has far more PC companies backing it. And it has a trojan horse in a game machine that isn't going away anytime soon. This is just the reality we live in.

For those reasons, I feel the easiest way to end a silly format war that is hurting consumer adoption and resulting in both formats becoming niche, is for Universal to go neutral. That's all it will take and that is where I place my bets, and that is why I support Blu-ray. It has nothing to do with brand loyalty and wanting "my" format to win. I have nothing to do with these companies, I could care less. But two formats is confusing even me and I am on top of these things--I hate to think what Joe six pack is thinking. And to be honest, if we are stuck with one format, I'd like it to be the one with the biggest discs and the highest bandwidth because I want them to crank things up as high as they can.

I agree with others on here that if we are to be stuck with two formats for too long, both will forever be niche because, in the movie/music world, consumers hate confusion and just want things simple. I really believe the BD supporters are more "One Format" supporters than anything. If HD-DVD had the advantage with corporate backing, then you'd see the same people like myself hoping BD would die so we can move on and get things rolling. 90% of the studios and manufacturers are on board, so let's get the other 10% and MOVE ON. That is more or less the BD supporter attitude. And listen if 90% of the studios/electronics manufacturers were backing HD-DVD, you'd see the same exactly people on the other side. You can choose to not believe this, but at least you'd have me on board for HD-DVD and railing against Blu-ray if the corporate backing situation was completely reversed. I'm just telling you the truth. Take it for what you will.

-

so in your view, every time an idea or a conflict has a leading perspective then the less popular perspective should just be abandoned to the majority.

for example, if most people believe that the world is flat then just kill off opposing views and end the debate quickly so we don't have to think about it anymore and cause social discord.

or if a team is a huge underdog in a football game according to the talking heads in sports then lets not even play the game since we all know the outcome anyway. lets just assign a winner and save everybody the time.

Sorry. I don't think you understand the HD-DVD supporter either.


How is this response even relevant given that I never claimed to say why people support HD-DVD, like you did with Blu-ray. I don't understand HD-DVD supporters? Fine, I agree.

But if I'm going to be judged as being somehow "suckered" into buying HD-DVD. I'm going to turn it right around and give my judgment right back.

It sounds like you are giving knee jerk reactions and now are just on the attack. If someone makes a judgment of you it is not a prerequisite for you to make a judgment of them "right back," like you did with Jason and like you are doing now with me. I never claimed to understand why someone supports HD-DVD to begin with, so therefore you have no judgment to make. If someone gives you an honest reason that you don't understand them after you make a judgment call, and goes on to explain it to you, and never makes any claims to understand you to begin with, the mature and prudent response for yourself would be to take that as knowledge, not to fight back telling them "Well, you don't understand me either so we're even!"

so in your view, every time an idea or a conflict has a leading perspective then the less popular perspective should just be abandoned to the majority.

for example, if most people believe that the world is flat then just kill off opposing views and end the debate quickly so we don't have to think about it anymore and cause social discord.

or if a team is a huge underdog in a football game according to the talking heads in sports then lets not even play the game since we all know the outcome anyway. lets just assign a winner and save everybody the time.

No. This is a movie disc format we are talking about right? We're not talking about completely altering the prevailing scientific view of the world, killing off and silencing minority opinions, and giving up on the dream of winning the big game. We're talking about shiny optical discs you stick in your movie player and that do the exact same thing. If you take this stuff this seriously as if it is your "team" to the point where you identify your views with what label is on your optical movie disc, then we are on a different page.

How is this response even relevant given that I never claimed to say why people support HD-DVD, like you did with Blu-ray. I don't understand HD-DVD supporters? Fine, I agree.



It sounds like you are giving knee jerk reactions and now are just on the attack. If someone makes a judgment of you it is not a prerequisite for you to make a judgment of them "right back," like you did with Jason and like you are doing now with me. I never claimed to understand why someone supports HD-DVD to begin with, so therefore you have no judgment to make. If someone gives you an honest reason that you don't understand them and explains it to you, and never makes any claims to understand you to begin with, the mature and prudent response for yourself would be to take that as knowledge rather than feeling the need to fight back telling them "Well, you don't understand me so we're even!"


There is no prudent response to "HD-DVD buyers were "suckered" in by MS". The notion in itself is without merit.

I never made a statement towards you. You decided to choose my statement as if I was talking to you and make a point. But, I'm on the attack? Right.

I was just showing how ridiculous that statement is by making equally ridiculous statements towards others. Do two wrongs make a right? No. I fully understand that saying the stuff I said.

No. This is a movie disc format we are talking about right? We're not talking about completely altering the prevailing scientific view of the world, killing off and silencing minority opinions, and giving up on the dream of winning the big game. We're talking about shiny optical discs you stick in your movie player and that do the exact same thing. If you take this stuff this seriously as if it is your "team" to the point where you identify your views with what label is on your optical movie disc, then we are on a different page.

true. i just gave two examples of opposite extremes. the first one being world altering and the second really having no consequence. the hd optical debate is somewhere in the middle.

there are many companies involved that are making decisions and you stated that bd has a majority. maybe that majority will shift given time and debate.

EDIT: the formats are clearly not "the exact same thing".

I'm tired of people wanting this divisive format war to continue forever. I don't need you to buy into Blu-ray, but it would be nice if people like you would stop acting like Blu-ray is not winning, that a Blu-ray victory would be the end of the world, and that it would somehow be better to have two formats forever than Blu-ray.

Winning WHAT exactly? A race of the midgets? How many titles have broken 100,000? Do you REALLY think one format is going to make people suddenly buy into HD at high prices for a difference that most people don't care about? Or, do you think you can force people to buy HD even if they don't want it?
Or make them buy yet another copy of their favorite movies, just to feed studio's greed? That's really what this boils down to. HDM has always been destined to be a niche product(s), because the masses just don't care.
J

All this talk about Microsoft's intentions are irrelevent. They are only cropping up now to offer an alternate position against Sony pushing forward into their umpteenth format war and really botching it, effectively drawing to nothing more than a stalemate. Given a proper comparison, most consumers can see that these formats are capable of performing nearly identically given care and effort in the content. The neutral studios are also keeping the content similar for both formats. I see either format as perfectly fine, although there are many reasons why I prefer one over the other. To decide that the group supporting HD DVD are the "bad guys" in this predicament is really wishful thinking. It's amazing that all it takes is a sermon from the DigitalBits to get people to parrot their propaganda.

To decide that the group supporting HD DVD are the "bad guys" in this predicament is really wishful thinking. It's amazing that all it takes is a sermon from the DigitalBits to get people to parrot their propaganda.

I'm just astonished how much people dip & swerve all over the place lately. IMO Toshiba is currently playing their price-card, and this is all fallout in response. The BD camp is trying to drop a FUD-bomb, that now that HD DVD is affordable to the newbie or the supporter who's is thinking of both, DON"T! FOR GOD SAKE! DON'T! YOU"LL MURDER HI-DEF IF YOU FALL FOR THIS AFFORDABLY PRICED FORMAT WITH FINISHED SPECS!

Talk about trying to getting someone to vote against their best interests.

I didn't think that they believed it at first and that it was a ploy, but..... I honestly now think that the ardent BD supporters DO believe that if you buy HD DVD you are dooming both formats to download mediocrity!!! Holy cow, I love the FUD that is spewing on this forum the last 2 days concerning how MS is trying deliberately to kill HD optical and take over the world with the 360 :rolleyes: and the only way to stop them is to throw all support into Blu Ray.

I'm just astonished how much people dip & swerve all over the place lately. IMO Toshiba is currently playing their price-card, and this is all fallout in response. The BD camp is trying to drop a FUD-bomb, that now that HD DVD is affordable to the newbie or the supporter who's is thinking of both, DON"T! FOR GOD SAKE! DON'T! YOU"LL MURDER HI-DEF IF YOU FALL FOR THIS AFFORDABLY PRICED FORMAT WITH FINISHED SPECS!

FUD-bomb! I love it. :D Sorry, I think I'm just getting giddy or delerious from reading way too many posts on AVSForum today. But that kind of reminds me of the MOAB or "daisy cutter". Hmmmm... maybe the big "atomic FUD bomb" hasn't been dropped yet?

Regarding the OP, I can appreciate what you are saying but I'm not too worried about SD DVD. Almost B&M every store I walk into has 1080p displays on sale and that trend will only continue. HD-DVD and BD look great on these new displays. The difference in picture quality gets easier for "regular" people to see every day as the displays get bigger and better. Everyone that's seen my modest little HD setup (110" 720p FP) has been impressed and I don't even have 1080p yet.

Bradley

DON"T! FOR GOD SAKE! DON'T! YOU"LL MURDER HI-DEF IF YOU FALL FOR THIS AFFORDABLY PRICED FORMAT WITH FINISHED SPECS!
.

LOL. I love it! :D

We're talking about shiny optical discs you stick in your movie player and that do the exact same thing.

Oh, well, if that's the case, why not just kill off the more expensive one.

this has been fun reading but i think people worried about downloading taking over heck
where i am at the service gets interrupted at least twice a month it suffers from packet
loss from time to time not to mention if they do offer downloadable hd movies just how
compressed is it going to be little lone everyone in the house asking if it is downloaded yet.

No one is arguing that.

In less than one year Sony has dropped their available BD player from $1000.00 to less than $500.00 :eek: Ouch!

At this rate BD players will be at $250.00 at years end to keep up and HD DVD player probably at $150.00


War over? (http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Industry_Trends/Disc_Sales/Sonys_New_Blu-ray_Marketing_Message:_Format_War_is_Over/468) I think not! Because if it is why bother lowering the price this looooow?

Excellent post... This war will go on up until Universal and Toshiba decide they don't want to lose any more money in fighting. This could be a couple years, or it could be sooner.. It all depends on how this upcoming Christmas season plays out and how agressive the marketing is on both fronts.. My prediction is based on the current trend and lead Blu-Ray has, however the momentum has changed with the latest HD-DVD push and only time will tell if it is going to be enough or if it can be sustained against a lower priced Blu-Ray player and a wider range of studio support with more popular recent blockbusters in its lineup.. Can Universal's classics compete? We shall see...

Oh, well, if that's the case, why not just kill off the more expensive one.

LMAO!

Classic!

this has been fun reading but i think people worried about downloading taking over heck
where i am at the service gets interrupted at least twice a month it suffers from packet
loss from time to time not to mention if they do offer downloadable hd movies just how
compressed is it going to be little lone everyone in the house asking if it is downloaded yet.

Also, I like my movies portable to friends, as I walk out the door.

I already lost a ton of music a couple years ago when my external HD croaked, I'm not sticking everything I own on a single disk again, even with back-up it's risky. Since were talking essentially movie computers, what if someone tries to change the platform so that your old movies won't port over, or you have to keep buying software to reformat what you own. It just really doesn't sound geared to the collector, but rather the renter and studio owner.

Excellent post... This war will go on up until Universal and Toshiba decide they don't want to lose any more money in fighting. This could be a couple years, or it could be sooner.. It all depends on how this upcoming Christmas season plays out and how agressive the marketing is on both fronts.. My prediction is based on the current trend and lead Blu-Ray has, however the momentum has changed with the latest HD-DVD push and only time will tell if it is going to be enough or if it can be sustained against a lower priced Blu-Ray player and a wider range of studio support with more popular recent blockbusters in its lineup.. Can Universal's classics compete? We shall see...

Another one!

Jeeze - you guys pop out like worms after a storm!

LINK?

PROOF?

Wow. I must look into getting stock in those hot tinfoil hat producing companies. Seems like business is booming.

LMAO. That one was priceless. :)

Excellent post... This war will go on up until Universal and Toshiba decide they don't want to lose any more money in fighting. This could be a couple years, or it could be sooner.. It all depends on how this upcoming Christmas season plays out and how agressive the marketing is on both fronts.. My prediction is based on the current trend and lead Blu-Ray has, however the momentum has changed with the latest HD-DVD push and only time will tell if it is going to be enough or if it can be sustained against a lower priced Blu-Ray player and a wider range of studio support with more popular recent blockbusters in its lineup.. Can Universal's classics compete? We shall see...

Who says they're losing a dime? Universal might be missing the BD market but likely every disc they sell nets money. Toshiba you can't say, given the drop in laser prices my guess is that $299 is near cost & not a loser.

And given the PR backlash that is likely from releasing unfinished players I'm not certain any marketing push from the BDA will help. Yes, nobody here cares but the avg consumer will be teed off when they can't access the extras on their brand new disc.

Why's that? I'm probably four times the sucker than the average blu-ray sucker since I have four players, so I'm genuinely interested in why I'm a super sucker.

Because, after buying four over-priced players, 99.9% of your 'exclusive' Fox, MGM, and Disney titles look the same as mine do on my considerably less expensive HD DVD player- i.e. upconverted sd.

Because, after buying four over-priced players, 99.9% of your 'exclusive' Fox, MGM, and Disney titles look the same as mine do on my considerably less expensive HD DVD player- i.e. upconverted sd.

Overpriced? Based on his wallet or yours?
Last I checked, we all personally define our own definition of 'overpriced'.

For me, a bottle of Plumpjack cabernet is way too much at $150 when ordering out. If I saw it on the menu for $100 for the bottle, I'd likely order two.

You see...it is personal. The fact that the poster owns 4 BD players tells me he felt he has gotten good value with Blu Ray despite the fact he could've gotten 10 HD DVD players for the same price.

Because, after buying four over-priced players, 99.9% of your 'exclusive' Fox, MGM, and Disney titles look the same as mine do on my considerably less expensive HD DVD player- i.e. upconverted sd.
Wrong forum to be talking about this. You do realize there are crazy people here who spent more on cabling alone than the cost of buying one copy of all the HDM disks and all the players on both formats available right? :D

Last time I checked some people are still paying 5 digits just for speakers and amps here.

Overpriced? Based on his wallet or yours?
Last I checked, we all personally define our own definition of 'overpriced'.

For me, a bottle of Plumpjack cabernet is way too much at $150 when ordering out. If I saw it on the menu for $100 for the bottle, I'd likely order two.

You see...it is personal. The fact that the poster owns 4 BD players tells me he felt he has gotten good value with Blu Ray despite the fact he could've gotten 10 HD DVD players for the same price.

You are KILLING me!

LMFAO!

Wrong forum to be talking about this. You do realize there are crazy people here who spent more on cabling alone than the cost of buying one copy of all the HDM disks and all the players on both formats available right? :D

Last time I checked some people are still paying 5 digits just for speakers and amps here.

People should make their own determinations about what they consider "pricey".

I worked with a tech in DC two years ago, real working class guy, his personal vehicle was an old Chevy and he and his wife lived in a very modest home.

He was planning on spending the overtime dollars he was earning from the project we were on to upgrade his $40K home theater and his $70K listening room.

Guy had a 20 year old junker car but had $3,000 interconnects on his stereo. It's all relative.

Overpriced? Based on his wallet or yours?
Last I checked, we all personally define our own definition of 'overpriced'.

.

that would be based on the fact that none of them will comply with the mandatory final specs of the format in about 4 more months.

He's paid a premium price for an incomplete device. 4 times over.

Who says they're losing a dime? Universal might be missing the BD market but likely every disc they sell nets money. Toshiba you can't say, given the drop in laser prices my guess is that $299 is near cost & not a loser.

And given the PR backlash that is likely from releasing unfinished players I'm not certain any marketing push from the BDA will help. Yes, nobody here cares but the avg consumer will be teed off when they can't access the extras on their brand new disc.
That is mathematically impossible --- when you sell <3000 disks of a title, ignoring the mastering costs, even if programmers and compressionist time is free, the margin earned doesn't even pay for the bus fare for the people who own/manage these titles from a merchandising standpoint at the studios.
And a lot of universal disks don't even sell 2000 disks as of that march nielsen report.

I am guessing, the studio nets 33% of the MSRP. (My estimate).

Then there's salaries and opportunity cost. Other than the titles that sold > 10000 barely breaking even, I expect that with all costs involved, the studios cannot make money on low volume disks --- unless someone else is paying for them or they are doing it for long term strategic reasons.

No big corporation can make money selling a few thousand copies of anything @<10 net these days.

This applies to all the studios btw.

that would be based on the fact that none of them will comply with the final specs of the format in about 4 more months

Has nothing to do with and further makes my point. He bought 4 players despite preliminary specs. Last I checked, they still play Blu Ray movies. Moreover the XA2 still does not do true 1080P24 despite being advertised to do so and does not do proper bass management for its analog outs despite saying so in the manual.

But again, overpriced, is a matter of opinion.

Because, after buying four over-priced players, 99.9% of your 'exclusive' Fox, MGM, and Disney titles look the same as mine do on my considerably less expensive HD DVD player- i.e. upconverted sd.

Well, enjoy your standard definition DVDs then. I'm happy that works for you. You sound exactly like my father who can't see a difference in anything.

that would be based on the fact that none of them will comply with the mandatory final specs of the format in about 4 more months.

He's paid a premium price for an incomplete device. 4 times over.

Yet each of them will play the movies that are put out. I'm fully aware that some of the decks won't be able to handle the upcoming BD Live features. I did, ya know, research. But I rarely if ever look at the extra features so it's not a big deal. And picking up a fifth player or finding that the two PS3's I own could be upgraded makes it even easier to deal with.

Back when I bought my Sony S3000 DVD player, I knew that there'd be better players in the future, cheaper, that would deal with more options. Like DTS. And I love me DTS from my laserdisc days. But I wanted DVD. But you know what? Most of my DVDs still play on my S3000. I suspect that most of my BDs will play on my four existing decks as well in terms of playing back what's most important to me - the movie.

Has nothing to do with and further makes my point. He bought 4 players despite preliminary specs. Last I checked, they still play Blu Ray movies. Moreover the XA2 still does not do true 1080P24 despite being advertised to do so and does not do proper bass management for its analog outs despite saying so in the manual.

But again, overpriced, is a matter of opinion.

If anything, I have to say my HDA1 is the only overpriced item I bought in terms of value it's provided me. I bought one HD DVD movie with it (Last Samurai) and rented maybe three discs for it. I hadn't powered it up since August of 06 until this past week when I had an HD DVD to do a review of. I'm looking forward to the day I can take it out of my component shelf and just have three items on there instead of four.

I find format defending to be silly but if people wish tod o it then that's their time they can waste.

I personally am a fan of high def on disc and just want studios to keep supporting it like they have in the last year and do not care if it stays niche as long as the releases keep coming.

Well, enjoy your standard definition DVDs then. I'm happy that works for you. You sound exactly like my father who can't see a difference in anything.

Chris, you didn't get it.
I can't play an 1080p copy of Die Hard, Predator, Last Of The Mohicans, Butch Cassidy and 2000 other Fox titles on my HD DVD player
But at the same time
neither can you or Jeff - BECAUSE THEY DON'T EXIST

Even the titles like BC and Predtor, that were announced at CES in January are simply no where to be found- so everyone that dropped upwards of $800 on the 'superior' format, with 'superior' support is stuck watching sd like me, if they want to see those movies.

But hey, if it makes you feel any better, I'm a sucker too because I just dropped $500 on a soon to be out of spec Sony Bd player- even though I KNOW the format has a history of over promising and under delivering.

Yet each of them will play the movies that are put out. I'm fully aware that some of the decks won't be able to handle the upcoming BD Live features. I did, ya know, research. But I rarely if ever look at the extra features so it's not a big deal. ... I suspect that most of my BDs will play on my four existing decks as well in terms of playing back what's most important to me - the movie.


Its not a big deal since the majority of the software releases so far don't come close to giving merit to the BDA talking points of what its superior capactity advantage would mean.
If in fact you do just like to watch the movie, then it probably would have been smarter for you to get behind HD DVD for several reasons.
But apparently you would rather have mpeg2 on Bd 25s or redundant lossless audio eating up space, than admit that the 30 gbs and bandwidth limitation of HD DVD are already sufficent to provide a perfectly impressive 1080p a/v experience.

I get it. Its a source of pride at this point.

Oh, well, if that's the case, why not just kill off the more expensive one.
Look at this curve of prices of movies :
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/price-1-1-recent30.jpg

Even same movies on both formats tend to come out on combos on the red format, making them about $4 more than the blue format.

Just saying, you know. ;)

Price is a factor for J6P but it is also a HUGE factor for most people here on AVS.

Whenever a product that appears to work well, and not cost as much as competing products comes along, most AVSers hop all over it then try to convince everyone else that this product is the only way to go.

We see this in the projector section first with the Ruby, then Pearl and now the RS-1. We saw it in the DVD hardware forum with the Oppo DVD player. And we see it here with HD-DVD.

If Blu-Ray had players for half the cost of HD-DVD players the same folks who are so vocal about HD-DVD would be Blu-Rayers and would spend every waking post bashing Microsoft. It really is aboout the cost of the players for most HD-DVD advocates, from what I can tell.

I also agree with one of the posters above that while the BD Group is trying very hard to establish the next generation optical disc, Microsoft is standing on its head to stymie any next gen disc and move straight to downloads (including having Company employees posting here regularly to undermine Blu-Ray). I heard a recent Bill Gates speech about downloading movies as the future and he said "most people only watch a movie once anyway, so downloads are a perfect fit for movie watchers".

I want a next gen HD optical disc. I could care less how much the player costs, but I do want to watch all the movies I love on it.

And finally. I definitely agree that HD-DVD caused the Blu-Ray camp to get their "stuff" together more quickly, but improved quality would have come anyway just like it did for CD and DVD.

-- Cain

Look at this curve of prices of movies :
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/price-1-1-recent30.jpg

Even same movies on both formats tend to come out on combos on the red format, making them about $4 more than the blue format.

Just saying, you know. ;)

I need to make sure that I understand the chart.

This is a chart that shows the MSRP of both BD (the blue line) and HD DVD (the black line) movies.

Seems like that blue line never goes above $29.00 - is that right?

Cause I just looked on Amazon and found that these are the MSRP's of the following BD movies:

POTC - COTBP - $34.99
POTC - DMC - $34.99
Flags of Our Fathers - $39.99
The Fountain - $34.99
Night at the Museum - $39.98
Planet Earth - $99.98

So where are these movies on the chart?

I want a next gen HD optical disc. I could care less how much the player costs, but I do want to watch all the movies I love on it.



Unfortunately most consumers DO care about price. As has been posted in many recent articles the typical consumer, who has a 27" TV just doesn't care about HD optical media and 1080p movies. Heck, I have a friend with a 50" SXRD and he insists he can barely tell the difference between DVD and HD-DVD on my 60" SXRD... so how likely is he to EVER buy an HD player for his 50" unless it's practically given to him?

I think the hard truth is that whereas many people could immediately see the advantages of DVD (better AQ/PQ as well as menus, extras, chapter skip, etc), the difference to HD media is not so obvious. Both formats are going to have an enormous struggle to become mainstream. I think this would be the case even if there was no competition.

And finally. I definitely agree that HD-DVD caused the Blu-Ray camp to get their "stuff" together more quickly, but improved quality would have come anyway just like it did for CD and DVD.
-- Cain

That's probably true. However the way we would have gotten access to these movies is through studio re-releases. Nothing like getting real movie lovers to double or triple dip for a title just to get a better transfer!! :o

If downloads work, I don't mind as much. In 10 years, I suspect it might well work, but there's a few things at work here that penalizes the economics of downloads that don't apply to optical media.

1. Bandwidth is not free. Even if broadband appear to be free, if everyone is downloading terabytes of data every two weeks, the backbones will have to be upgraded to accomodate this. Since the last internet craze died down, there's no gullible stockholders to fund the infrastructure nuthouses like 360networks or @Home the way it happened the last time. Subscribers monthly fee has to go up to cover this infrastructure improvement for real time Video at the same bitrate as BD or HD DVD. (More expensive for BD @ 40Mvideo+<7Maudio). Because someone pays for the size of each movie through download, economic forces dictate that the smaller the size of movies, the less the distribution costs become, HDM have a 50GB size that is a fixed cost --- buyers can encourage studios to release higher bitrate movies on HDM, whereas the mp3 mentality will kick in and movie downloads will drive towards 720P and <10Mbps targets instead of 40Mbps peaks, the same way 128kbps mp3 seem to be more common than 320kbps ones even though the 320kbps sounds better.

2. Storage capacity is not economical for movie collectors. Movies in BD regularly take up 40GB+, PoTC did not fit on 50GB. PCs cannot hold too many movies before you have to erase them. This will disappear as 10TB HDD start to come out. Alternatives such as NAS with multiple HDD can work, but there are limits to how many HDDs you can string together.

3. PCs have fans. Very loud fans. PCs also take longer to boot, almost as long as the HD-A1 (some longer), making them unfriendly to use.

4. Downloads for limited viewing will cost less than downloads for permanent collection. This penalizes collectors like me because there will be less people buying the permanent collections, meaning I will pay a lot more for the privillege of collecting the movie permanently because my hobby is a small fraction of movie downloaders who will only want to watch it once.

I need to make sure that I understand the chart.

This is a chart that shows the MSRP of both BD (the blue line) and HD DVD (the black line) movies.

Seems like that blue line never goes above $29.00 - is that right?

Cause I just looked on Amazon and found that these are the MSRP's of the following BD movies:

POTC - COTBP - $34.99
POTC - DMC - $34.99
Flags of Our Fathers - $39.99
The Fountain - $34.99
Night at the Museum - $39.98
Planet Earth - $99.98

So where are these movies on the chart?

I have to complement you on your spin... The graph is self explanatory but your take on it is really imaginative....Kudos to you!!! :)

I have to complement you on your spin... The graph is self explanatory but your take on it is really imaginative....Kudos to you!!! :)

"The graph is self explainatory"

So where is the Key? And a Description of what the chart is showing?

I see a chart with 2 lines - 1 blue and 1 black

I see numbers to represent price on the left and a time frame on the bottom. The chart reads from the left to the right.

Did I get the Key and Description wrong?

Is this a chart of MSRP for BD movies and HD DVD movies for the time period on the bottom?

Is BD the blue line and HD DVD the black line?

Or do I have them mixed up? :rolleyes:

Look at this curve of prices of movies :
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/price-1-1-recent30.jpg

Even same movies on both formats tend to come out on combos on the red format, making them about $4 more than the blue format.

Just saying, you know. ;)

Excactly. I don't want to be stuck with even more expensive software (HD-DVD).

Yes. It is crystal clear as both axis' of the plot are labeled...therefore interpretation is straight forward. You still don't understand?

I need to make sure that I understand the chart.

This is a chart that shows the MSRP of both BD (the blue line) and HD DVD (the black line) movies.

Seems like that blue line never goes above $29.00 - is that right?

Cause I just looked on Amazon and found that these are the MSRP's of the following BD movies:

POTC - COTBP - $34.99
POTC - DMC - $34.99
Flags of Our Fathers - $39.99
The Fountain - $34.99
Night at the Museum - $39.98
Planet Earth - $99.98

So where are these movies on the chart?
That's the amazon top 10 list on eproductwars.com (like it says on the graph).

link : http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/

Mind you, there's the box sets that skews it more, but even taking out all the box sets, the average prices on amazon for red disks are always higher because
(1) Fox and universal charges the most for disks. Fox is MIA for BD, while disney and sony disks are cheaper.
(2) There's a lot of combos on red format that have MSRP of $5 more on red than on blue for the same movie. (Eg : iwo jima, happy feet, departed, etc)
(3) Paramount, which is also very expensive on both formats have released very few movies recently, making disney and sony prices bigger factors on the BD averages.

Whichever you look at it, red format collectors are paying more per movie than the blue format collectors. Which is curious, since we know that BD50s cost at least 50c more per disk to manufacture than HD30.

I have to complement you on your spin... The graph is self explanatory but your take on it is really imaginative....Kudos to you!!! :)
The graph is by no means "self explanatory". One might assume that this represents some average price - but no where is that labeled. Even then "average" can mean one of several things:
1) Arithmetic average of the MSRP of all movies that currently are shipping
2) Arithmetic average of the selling price (at some unlabeled location - Amazon?) of all movies that are currently shipping
3) Arithmetic average of the MSRP of all movies that currently can be ordered
4) Arithmetic average of the selling price (at some unlabeled location - Amazon?) of all movies that currently can be ordered
5) Some other mathematical function of any of the above

However, such stats can be very misleading.
- Which format currently sells more "boxed sets"?
- What is the average price with combos versus non combos?

Given that boxed sets are a huge variable, based on the number of discs inside, a more realistic comparison would be single disc BDs versus two different HD DVD curves - one single disc non-combos only, the other all single disc HD DVDs.

Remember, there is truth, fiction, and statistics. One can spin anything by hiding it enough obscure calculations.

Unlabeled, and without reference to its data set, that graph is absolutely meaningless.

That's the amazon top 10 list on eproductwars.com (like it says on the graph).
You must have better eyes than me -- I don't see that on that graph.

Now, if one actually spends time reading that site, one might know. I don't. It was presented here without explanation nor the URL for its source. In that form, it is meaningless.

Now that you say it is just the top 10 at Amazon, it is a totally different graph. It says that the multi-disk HD DVD sets are so compelling in content, that HD DVD buyers are willing to pay more than the BD buyer does.

If I were a studio, I would see that I could get more revenue selling to the HD DVD market, as the buyers are more affluent, and are willing to spend more. BD apparently only appeals to the low end market.

Or maybe, because the HD DVD buyer has spent less on their player, they can afford more for disks??

Isn't that a fair interpretation. ;) ;) ;)

You must have better eyes than me -- I don't see that on that graph.

Now, if one actually spends time reading that site, one might know. I don't. It was presented here without explanation nor the URL for its source. In that form, it is meaningless.

Now that you say it is just the top 10 at Amazon, it is a totally different graph. It says that the multi-disk HD DVD sets are so compelling in content, that HD DVD buyers are willing to pay more than the BD buyer does.

If I were a studio, I would see that I could get more revenue selling to the HD DVD market, as the buyers are more affluent, and are willing to spend more. BD apparently only appeals to the low end market.

Isn't that a fair interpretation. ;) ;) ;)


:D

Look at this curve of prices of movies :
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/price-1-1-recent30.jpg

Even same movies on both formats tend to come out on combos on the red format, making them about $4 more than the blue format.

Just saying, you know. ;)

I used to follow that chart and think it was significant since I do believe disc pricing matters a great deal to the market. But in the last couple months a disproportionate number of HD DVD sales have been expensive boxed sets and that screws up the charts as far as watching average prices.

- Tom

OK . . . now I think I got it.

This chart is a chart of Amazon's prices for the sales of their top 10 selling HDD titles - Right?

But I have a problem . . . .

Planet Earth in HD DVD is the #3 best selling title ($66.35) while Planet earth BD is #16 (same price)

So on this chart, if I am reading it correctly (again), Planet Earth HD DVD with it's $66.35 price is here on the chart, but because the BD version is below #10 - it does not affect that blue price line with it's high price.

Is that right?

Thank God The Matrix is only at #177. Imagine what that chart would look like if it was say #9?

They would have to change that price on the left or that black line would go right off the chart - right? :D

Personally, I'm getting tired of these new arguments from the HD DVD camp that "neither format will win," "both will forever be niche formats," "dual-format players are the miracle cure," "every studio should be neutral," etc.

It seems fairly obvious to me what's happening here. A lot of HD DVD supports are finally realizing that HD DVD is not winning, and in fact may not even be capable of winning anymore. However, instead of just coming out and admitting they might have made a mistake and chosen the wrong format, they are now arguing these variations of the "both formats are losing" idea. They have such an irrational attitude toward Blu-ray that they would rather see both formats die, or forever coexist in an unending stalemate, than Blu-ray win. It's absurd.

wow...what reality distortion field are you existing in? It's the Blu Ray camp that is having to get acclimated to the fact that their "anointed" format isn't working out quite like they hoped and throwing a temper tantrum.

Chris, you didn't get it.
I can't play an 1080p copy of Die Hard, Predator, Last Of The Mohicans, Butch Cassidy and 2000 other Fox titles on my HD DVD player
But at the same time
neither can you or Jeff - BECAUSE THEY DON'T EXIST

Cry me a river cause I'd like to go sailing. Same argument I heard ten years ago from the laserdisc die hards. "DVD will never have a tenth of what laserdisc has! I'm watching THIS and it's not on DVD. HAH HAH DVD SUCKS!".

But you know what? I'm not exactly hurting to see these in 1080p. A lot of them show up on Cinemax in proper aspect ratio at 1080i. Of course, it's not 1080p and uncompressed sound or DTS-MA or whatever else, but hey, it works for me and it's not 480p DVD upconverted into faking 1080p. It's using actual detail not present in the 480p DVD. So inbetween watching the HD Blu-ray discs I do have, there's plenty of other material to watch.

Its not a big deal since the majority of the software releases so far don't come close to giving merit to the BDA talking points of what its superior capactity advantage would mean.
If in fact you do just like to watch the movie, then it probably would have been smarter for you to get behind HD DVD for several reasons.
But apparently you would rather have mpeg2 on Bd 25s or redundant lossless audio eating up space, than admit that the 30 gbs and bandwidth limitation of HD DVD are already sufficent to provide a perfectly impressive 1080p a/v experience.

I get it. Its a source of pride at this point.

Yeah, I do like watching movies. My collection is just under 5000 DVDs. When I bought into DVD way back when, I loved my player. I believed in the format. I put my money where my mouth is and talked it up with everyone. I own HD DVD (bought it at launch!) but it never got me juiced up for it. Blu-ray has. I played a long game with DVD because of the field I'm in and it took years of working with companies to get things where I wanted it with them. I'm eager to do it again with Blu-ray (and have done it with HD DVD as well!).

I also choose my discs carefully in what I upgrade or by new. Most of what I own is actually BD-50 and AVC encodings. But thee's a bunch of 25's with MPEG2 as well. It's part and parcel of being an early adopter.

But thanks for making a presumption that it's a source of pride. I spent about two years here on AVS before the launch of either format talking with many of the long term regulars here (many of which have sadly left) and made my decisions through that time. It's not pride but simply what I believe. I'm not "proud" of my collection or my hardware. It's a means to an end. The end is HD video. And I'm beyond happy with what I've been watching and experiencing. So much so that I don't feel the need to power on the HD-A1.

But when I do power on that machine, as I did last weekend, and look at an HD DVD, you know what? I gave it a glowing review. I even managed to review something nobody else in the HD DVD reviewing world has done yet, an internet enabled title. I have issues with what was presented as downloadable content, but I sung the praises of what was put intothe disc overall.

Because, after buying four over-priced players, 99.9% of your 'exclusive' Fox, MGM, and Disney titles look the same as mine do on my considerably less expensive HD DVD player- i.e. upconverted sd.

:eek:

Wow. With one post, your credibility has been completely shot, and it is doubtful that it will be regained.

:eek:

Wow. With one post, your credibility has been completely shot, and it is doubtful that it will be regained.

Indeed. I mean, I'd take DirecTV's "hd-lite" over an upconverted DVD most of the time. Thankfully my local Comcast is actually one of the better regions and I get fairly solid HD through them. The Cinemax and HBO combo really brings me a lot of good HD content.

If Blu-Ray had players for half the cost of HD-DVD players the same folks who are so vocal about HD-DVD would be Blu-Rayers and would spend every waking post bashing Microsoft. It really is aboout the cost of the players for most HD-DVD advocates, from what I can tell.

I also agree with one of the posters above that while the BD Group is trying very hard to establish the next generation optical disc, Microsoft is standing on its head to stymie any next gen disc and move straight to downloads (including having Company employees posting here regularly to undermine Blu-Ray). I heard a recent Bill Gates speech about downloading movies as the future and he said "most people only watch a movie once anyway, so downloads are a perfect fit for movie watchers".

I want a next gen HD optical disc. I could care less how much the player costs, but I do want to watch all the movies I love on it.

And finally. I definitely agree that HD-DVD caused the Blu-Ray camp to get their "stuff" together more quickly, but improved quality would have come anyway just like it did for CD and DVD.

-- Cain

Excellent, well reasoned post Cain. Good to see you posting more!

Are you telling me you DON'T see all the news posts and forum posts on sites that aren't dedicated to home theaters like this one that say, "I won't buy into either format until there is just one?" I see this sentiment all the time. In fact, I would argue that the reason DVD is "good enough" isn't going to be cost, but uncertainty on the stability of EITHER format when NEITHER format clearly wins.

I disagree. With HD DVD players prices down low enough to be disposable for anyone seriously into HT, I would postulate that those who haven't bought into one or the other really don't care about the PQ/AQ differences. If they did, they would be willing to drop a couple of c-notes for an A-2 and a stack of movies. Given that there are several hundred titles available for sale or coming soon for each format, this should have already become a no-brainer.

Prices for HD DVD aren't at mass-adoption levels yet, but they are certainly well within the range of any serious enthusiast or hobbyist. Now BD is still a bit high in comparison, but not enough to seriously deter someone who really wants the higher quality HD media provides.

Chris:

Take heed . . . .

If you were here from 2004 to 2006 - before the launch of HD DVD and BD - this is NOT the same Forum that you remember.

I was here from 1999 to 2002 (different last name, same first name) and I can tell you AVS is a shadow of it's former self.

So be careful . . .

There are many predators in these waters. You are going to be held accountable to anything and everything you post - verbatim. Some will understand, some will agree and some will disagree. It is the level of disagreement that has severely changed.

Lee,

I had actually read a bit prior to '04 but I don't believe I actually posted much. I think I may hve registered in '03 but something keeps telling me my account was in '01. I stopped posting in Jan 07 but I still read a few things here and there. I mostly just went back to working with domestic studios in pushing for HD in general though with my own preference of course. But yes, AVS is not the forum it once was. Most forums go through that at some time or another - or multiple times. I've seen it with my own forum as well and I've been running that for ten years. I do spend more of my time in other subforums of AVS though as opposed to the HD area. Used it for my research on my Sony 70XBR2 as well as my recent acquisiton of the Onkyo 605!

:eek:

Wow. With one post, your credibility has been completely shot, and it is doubtful that it will be regained.

Rob, you obviously misunderstood as well.
If you somehow have magical access to a Bd of Die Hard (or maybe more accurately Prredator or Butch Cassidy) then yes, I admit your copy on the Bd player will look sufficently better than the standard def copies I'm upconverting on my A1.

Since , however, you nor anyone owns these on Bd (after they were trumpted in one of many bombastic CES announcments) I don't see where you can dispute that your standard def dvds look any better than mine. Comprende?

And, I've been here for a while too (since 2001 under another name) and yes the place has change, and yes not for the better. My apologies if my last few posts have contributed to the gassy fumes arising from these sub forums.

So many people changing names in the last couple of years. That's unfortunate, I hate to think that I don't know someone that I used to know. Then again, I always post with my real name so at least that generally doesn't happen with me.

:eek:

Wow. With one post, your credibility has been completely shot, and it is doubtful that it will be regained.

Actually his statement is 100% accurate. To be honest he should have added Warner, Universal, Paramount etc to that list. He is saying that since 99.9% of all the Fox/MGM/Sony titles have not even been released in BD then I can (with my HD DVD player) watch them just as well as you can (with your BD player) in the only medium that they are available in. SD DVD.

I actually own what would be considered by most a large collection of HD DVD and BD discs and I still would have to watch ~90% of the movies I own (from any studio) in the only way they are available to me. Upconverted SD DVD (or in some cases my LD copy)

Lee,

I had actually read a bit prior to '04 but I don't believe I actually posted much. I think I may hve registered in '03 but something keeps telling me my account was in '01. I stopped posting in Jan 07 but I still read a few things here and there. I mostly just went back to working with domestic studios in pushing for HD in general though with my own preference of course. But yes, AVS is not the forum it once was. Most forums go through that at some time or another - or multiple times. I've seen it with my own forum as well and I've been running that for ten years. I do spend more of my time in other subforums of AVS though as opposed to the HD area. Used it for my research on my Sony 70XBR2 as well as my recent acquisiton of the Onkyo 605!

Onkyo 605! . . You lucky dog you!

I unfortunately did not do enough research before I made my purchase of my HD A2. At the time (January) the audio formats and the HDMI formats confused me. I bought the right receiver (Sony STG 800) but i bought the wrong HD DVD player. I should have bought the XA2 instead. If I had I would be listening to TruHD as opposed to DD+.

And in mention of "shadows of their former selves" so is my HT. Back in 1999 to 2002 I had a dedicated HT with a Stewart 16x9 144" screen with a Zenith Pro900X and HD from OTA, DISH and DirecTV. Now a 50" Samsung 5053 PDP (Pro Calibrated )

But my new home is paid for while I was paying $2500 a month for a mortgage on the one that I sold with the HT in it.

Good trade off IMO.

I used to follow that chart and think it was significant since I do believe disc pricing matters a great deal to the market. But in the last couple months a disproportionate number of HD DVD sales have been expensive boxed sets and that screws up the charts as far as watching average prices.

- Tom
Even before the two matrix boxed sets skewed it further, the combos (universal & warner) 27.95 amazon price have moved the HD DVD prices higher than BD, when Fox disks disappeared, the average BD prices just became incredibly cheap. FWIW, other than Warner (non combos, warner combos are also very expensive), Sony and Disney disks are the cheapest of the majors (not counting minors like weinstein & magnolia)

When the combos go away, the red disks will become cheaper. But it's been cheaper for blue on amazon for a long time (since january/feb?).
http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/price-1-1-All.jpg

Yeah, mortgage payments can really screw with a home theater plan. I continue to work piecemeal on mine but I've got in a really nice manner now. Good sized fully enclosed room, 70" XBR2 in dead center, about 10 foot distance for the long sectional sofa. Turn the lights off, queue up the movie, it's a great little home theater. Pales next to many around here but it's a slice of heaven for me.

Both formats have their share of self appointed evangelists. Is it me, or are the Blu Ray fanboys here a lot more ardent about wanting HD DVD to die? I could care less about Blu Ray at this time. I decided to buy only one format for now, and the choice I made felt like I was getting more of what I wanted and sacrificing less. It was still a hard choice, as media and fanboy spin would have you believe that the war was over before it began, but ultimately I decided that choosing a format because someone told me it had a better chance of winning was idiotic; it was about present and future content, not spin. If your choice led you to Blu Ray it doesn't make me want to stick a steak knife in your neck.

Maybe I find the Blu Ray fanboys increasingly annoying because I chose HD DVD, and in reality the HD DVD fanboys are just as ardent and no less annoying. At this point I just wish Blu Ray would hurry up and die so this forum could focus on hardware and software instead of turning into alt.hidef.flamefest

Yeah, mortgage payments can really screw with a home theater plan. I continue to work piecemeal on mine but I've got in a really nice manner now. Good sized fully enclosed room, 70" XBR2 in dead center, about 10 foot distance for the long sectional sofa. Turn the lights off, queue up the movie, it's a great little home theater. Pales next to many around here but it's a slice of heaven for me.

A funny story . . .

I had a business partner/best friend who I kept my HT from while building it. I insisted he not see it under construction, but finished.

15' width - 30 ' length - 8' Ceiling (black), no windows, 6 of those leather "swedish" recliners with the back row of three elevated 12 " PJ on the ceiling. Maroon and black carpet strips on the walls with a dark grey carpet on the floor - a CAVE - simple as that.

I bring him in for the first time and he looks around shaking his head up and down and says:

" You built your own IMAX theater I see."

As he knows how much a lover of IMAX I am. Almost bought a 1 BDRM condo in the building that houses the Sony IMAX Theater in NYC (Lincoln Center) but right before I put money down - a custody issue with my children came up and I had a chance to take custody of my children sooooo - 3 BDRM house in Long island.

How cool would have that been? Take an evelator down to the lobby, walk 20 feet and have the Sony 10 Multiplex (largest theater 900 seats with SDDS) AND the Sony IMAX theater right there!

Rob, you obviously misunderstood as well.
If you somehow have magical access to a Bd of Die Hard (or maybe more accurately Prredator or Butch Cassidy) then yes, I admit your copy on the Bd player will look sufficently better than the standard def copies I'm upconverting on my A1.

Since , however, you nor anyone owns these on Bd (after they were trumpted in one of many bombastic CES announcments) I don't see where you can dispute that your standard def dvds look any better than mine. Comprende?

And, I've been here for a while too (since 2001 under another name) and yes the place has change, and yes not for the better. My apologies if my last few posts have contributed to the gassy fumes arising from these sub forums.

Well, your point was certainly not clear since you did not mention any specific titles in the post I quoted, but only mentioned studios.

In any event, I am glad that you clarified the point you were making. I have seen enough of your posts that I knew it didn't sound like something that you would think (that upconverted SD DVD's would look the same as the BD versions).

Both formats have their share of self appointed evangelists. Is it me, or are the Blu Ray fanboys here a lot more ardent about wanting HD DVD to die? I could care less about Blu Ray at this time. I decided to buy only one format for now, and the choice I made felt like I was getting more of what I wanted and sacrificing less. It was still a hard choice, as media and fanboy spin would have you believe that the war was over before it began, but ultimately I decided that choosing a format because someone told me it had a better chance of winning was idiotic; it was about present and future content, not spin. If your choice led you to Blu Ray it doesn't make me want to stick a steak knife in your neck.

Maybe I find the Blu Ray fanboys increasingly annoying because I chose HD DVD, and in reality the HD DVD fanboys are just as ardent and no less annoying. At this point I just wish Blu Ray would hurry up and die so this forum could focus on hardware and software instead of turning into alt.hidef.flamefest
I agree with you, my wish for HD DVD to die has waned recently, and I only think about HD DVD dying in an abstract long term horizon. I still had to pick up the matrix ultimate set, though I have not opened it since there's too many movies I haven't watched. But it is very interesting to see a single company (Toshiba) going against the entire japanese CE industry. It would be amazing if they prevail. But that's not the point, it's all about the movies, so let's get back to figuring out a way to see how many disks of each format sold every week in that nielsen thread.

I was too young to pay attention during the betamax vs VHS days, but this format war is very interesting for me. It is not often that we get to watch a format battle like this fought and analyzed with such detail.

Hopefully, it doesn't end with a whimper for both and that some great insider's expose books will be written about this first great format battle of the 21st century. I am most curious about Toshiba's bravery to proceed to production after Sanyo and NEC went silent on players, given they are going to battle against all of Japanese CE infrastructure on this war. But then, life would be boring without drama like this.

You must have better eyes than me -- I don't see that on that graph.

If I tilt my head 90 degrees to the left (ie towards my left hand), the label on the Y axis reads eproductwars.com. Just go to eproductwars.com and.....

I meant the chart says eproductwars.com.

On the Y axis.

written in text rotated 90 degrees. :D

Anyway, I assumed everyone here had been following the nielsen sales numbers and at least some of the bogus tracking sites like eproductwars.com (amazon sales), so I apologize if not everyone has tracked the sales volumes of both formats since inception.

At this point I just wish Blu Ray would hurry up and die so this forum could focus on hardware and software instead of turning into alt.hidef.flamefest
This is a bit new, as we normally see it in reverse from BD fanatics. In the end I couldn't care less who wins, except to get rid of "bigger ($) is better"

...Moreover the XA2 still does not do true 1080P24 despite being advertised to do so ...



The XA2 was never advertised for doing 1080p24

thread has run its course

Thank you