From what I can tell, the Pioneer models are the only ones that allow any type of judder reduction via their 3:3 pulldown 72Hz mode...are no other manufacturers offering this functionality?? If not, I just can't imagine why....

The panasonic plasma's offer nice pic quality, but on film source material judder can be horrendous!!

Pioneer is clearly more in tune with good quality home theater display devices as evident by their black bezel design (which thankfully panasonic has adopted) and inclusion of 72Hz mode.

Do the panny industrial models allow different refresh rates so one could send the set 72 or 48Hz?

All the contrast and black level don't matter if your movies are full of judder!

Ben

From what I can tell, the Pioneer models are the only ones that allow any type of judder reduction via their 3:3 pulldown 72Hz mode...are no other manufacturers offering this functionality?? If not, I just can't imagine why....

The panasonic plasma's offer nice pic quality, but on film source material judder can be horrendous!!

Pioneer is clearly more in tune with good quality home theater display devices as evident by their black bezel design (which thankfully panasonic has adopted) and inclusion of 72Hz mode.

Do the panny industrial models allow different refresh rates so one could send the set 72 or 48Hz?

All the contrast and black level don't matter if your movies are full of judder!

Ben


I agree with you, and this exact problem is what kept me from getting a new Panny, I was waiting for the 750's to become available, after reading a lot of good things about it, and seeing the 700's at the local BB I thought I had made my choice, wrong. I saw judder on HD sources and this alone made me change my mind, so it's going to be a couple of more months for me until the 1080p Pio's come out.

I would love one of the new 1080p panny's, but the judder is a total deal breaker...kudo's to Pioneer.

Does anyone know if different refresh rates can be sent to the industrial Panny's?

Ben

Yes, the 3:3 pulldown does alter the picture quite a bit.

When would this feature help? What is "film source material"/72Hz? In other words - help me figure out if this would be important for my viewing or not.

I'm deciding between the 5070/5080 and the new 10UK Panasonic line. I'll have satellite. I'll watch mostly sports in HD and some SD as well. Occasional DVD. No HD/DVD or Bluray yet. Should the Pioneer's shudder reduction matter to me?

How do you set the viewing mode on th 5080? I just bought planet earth and there is lots of judder on some scenes. It's played on my xbox HD with the output set to 720p. The movie is in 1080p

When would this feature help? What is "film source material"/72Hz? ...
The issue of judder comes with converting 24Hz source material to a form that may be displayed on a 60Hz display. Essentually any portions of the picture that are in motion may be seen to "stutter" or "judder." Due to required processing. If one had a display panel that had a display refresh rate at an integer multiple of 24... say 48, 72, 96, 120, etc, the conversion in the time domain could be made without introducing judder.

Some people seem more bothered by judder than others and it seems that some 60Hz sets may be better at the transformation. The Pios have a selectable mode that provides for a 72Hz refresh rate. The Pannys do not.

Sources of 24Hz material include DVD's, HD-DVD's, BluRay Disks, film transferred to other formats, and much of network produced shows. The issue is not limited to 1080p

How do you set the viewing mode on th 5080? I just bought planet earth and there is lots of judder on some scenes. It's played on my xbox HD with the output set to 720p. The movie is in 1080p
I don't own a Pio, but it's a Menu item and the feature is called "Advanced Pure Cinema."

Thanks. I'll give it a try.

I thought the 24 Hz/fps feature only works when both the display AND source device (w/ 1080p/24 Hz HD disk) are capable of delivering in this capacity, ie. you have to have it at both ends. :confused:

Example: 24 Hz Pioneer PDP & Blu-ray player w/ 24 Hz feature. I believe the PS3, Panasonic & Pioneer models have this feature. Most of the Toshibas (maybe all) & the Xbox 360 HD DVD do not offer 24 Hz playback capabilities, so they will be converted to 60 Hz (& good ole 3:2 pulldown) accordingly.

Many of the High Def players are claiming to add 24 Hz capabilities down the road in the form of a firmware upgrade, but so far I believe only the PS3 has delivered on the promise.

I own a Tosh X-A1 & w/ a 24 Hz firmware upgrade, the Pio 4280 or 5080 would definitely leapfrog a Panny 700 or 750 as the next upgrade to my Panny 37” plasma. :cool:

I've gone and confused myself. What is actaully coming out of my xbox when set to 720p? Isn't that automatically 60hz like TV? Am I confusing two differnt things? E.g. refresh rate and frame rate?

I've gone and confused myself. What is actaully coming out of my xbox when set to 720p? Isn't that automatically 60hz like TV? Am I confusing two differnt things? E.g. refresh rate and frame rate?

Yes the Xbox is outputing 720p/60hz. It's doing 3:2 pulldown and introducing the judder.

These 2 features come from the Pio 4280/ 5080 spec sheets:

New Smooth Film Motion Mode to eliminate motion jitter(sp) in 3:2
Pulldown (6OHz) providing natural even playback of content created
from film

Advanced PureCinema with 3:3 Pulldown (72H2) for accurate
playback of film content

The former helps 60 Hz sources/ material "judder" issues.

The latter (which has been offered on previous Pio gen models) directly accepts 24 Hz sources/ material & helps w/ "flickering" & "judder".

How do you set the viewing mode on th 5080? I just bought planet earth and there is lots of judder on some scenes. It's played on my xbox HD with the output set to 720p. The movie is in 1080p

I would appreciate it, when you have a spare moment, would you give us a description of what exactly does the Owner Manual, which is included with the TV, actually detail. Does it not spell out how to set the various functional options that are on the set?. It is puzzling to me, why Pioneer would not include specific instructions for the various settings options, and what they actually do. Thanks. :)

....

I figured that the problem was with the xbox. I'll give "smooth" a try.

These 2 features come from the Pio 4280/ 5080 spec sheets:

New Smooth Film Motion Mode to eliminate motion jitter(sp) in 3:2
Pulldown (6OHz) providing natural even playback of content created
from film

Advanced PureCinema with 3:3 Pulldown (72H2) for accurate
playback of film content

The former helps 60 Hz sources/ material "judder" issues.

The latter (which has been offered on previous Pio gen models) directly accepts 24 Hz sources/ material & helps w/ "flickering" & "judder".

bak_phy you'll want to turn on "New Smooth Film Motion Mode" and see if that helps with your Xbox feed from HD-DVD.

I figured that the problem was with the xbox. I'll give "smooth" a try.

Please let us know how good of a job it does!

Well, part of the reason I'd guess some companies don't incorporate 3:3 pull is while it might help reduce jutter, it brings with it problems such as artifacts. The CNET review below, and others I've read mentioned similar issues with 3:3 pulldown.

http://www.cnet.com.au/tvs/plasma/0,239035288,240055321,00.htm

That sucks....I will have to do some discriminating viewing with a Pioneer in the near future and comment back.

I'm still holding out hope that the Panny industrials will take 48 or 72 Hz and display it as such.

Anyone know if this is possible?

Ben

Well, part of the reason I'd guess some companies don't incorporate 3:3 pull is while it might help reduce jutter, it brings with it problems such as artifacts. The CNET review below, and others I've read mentioned similar issues with 3:3 pulldown.

http://www.cnet.com.au/tvs/plasma/0,239035288,240055321,00.htm
That review applies to a 2005 Pioneer. They've improved with each generation so I'd imagine the new 8th gen panels would actually offer significantly better performance in this area.

That review applies to a 2005 Pioneer. They've improved with each generation so I'd imagine the new 8th gen panels would actually offer significantly better performance in this area.

Well, even up until December 2006 in one of the magazines I have at home, they mentioned similar pro/cons. When I get home I'll have to dig it out.

Well, even up until December 2006 in one of the magazines I have at home, they mentioned similar pro/cons. When I get home I'll have to dig it out.
...and it's true, the 7th gen panels still have issues (though they were improved upon over the 6th gen models). However, based on what has been stated, the 8th gen panels are a huge leap over the 7th gen panels in that area. Here's hoping...

alright dagdgumit (really wanted to use an expletive there!), i had just made up my mind to jump into this hdtv scene and the px75 panny is the only 50 in plasma TV that will fit in my allotted space (exactly 48 inches wide - i know = TIGHT fit) and receives very good to excellent reviews. just how bad is this "judder" problem? my wife and 6 y/o girl will be the ones watching most of the aforementioned 24hz material as i will be primarily watching sports. i doubt they will be as critical as me unless the problem is somewhat pronounced. i'm really getting at my wits end trying to find a tv that fits my space and does not come with serious issues!

thanks ya'll for any "real world" input.
dan

alright dagdgumit (really wanted to use an expletive there!), i had just made up my mind to jump into this hdtv scene and the px75 panny is the only 50 in plasma TV that will fit in my allotted space (exactly 48 inches wide - i know = TIGHT fit) and receives very good to excellent reviews. just how bad is this "judder" problem? my wife and 6 y/o girl will be the ones watching most of the aforementioned 24hz material as i will be primarily watching sports. i doubt they will be as critical as me unless the problem is somewhat pronounced. i'm really getting at my wits end trying to find a tv that fits my space and does not come with serious issues!

thanks ya'll for any "real world" input.
dan

Have they noticed it so far? This isn't something new just with new TVs.

I finally had a chance to check out what the 'Smooth" function does. On the planet earth HD DVD episode on mountains there are more than a few scenes which really shake and rattle. One is slow scan over very textured rock (towards the beginning) Totally unwatchable with cinema mode off. When smoothing is turned on the image shakes for a second or so and then realizes whats going on and then sorta does a lock on the moving parts totally smoothing out the motion. So far so good. Later on there's a scene with 3 eagles flying across a cliff wall. What makes this interesting is that the camera is following the birds but they dont take up much of the scene. Without the smoother the birds look fine but the cliff is shaking. Smoother turns on, cliff stops shaking but the birds start shaking!!!! No way to fix both the juddering parts and the non-juddering parts.
Perhaps most annoying is when the smoother locks in, losses the lock and then relocks. The catchup is pretty jerky.
Planet Earth is also shown on TV and I have a few episodes recorded. Unfortunately none of them seem to have any real judder inducing scenes. Otherwise I would love to compare the TV signal with the HDDVD signal.
I'm not really sure what to think of it all. Would be nice to see it with 1080p/24. Even in the movie theater panning shoots often seem to judder. With the low frame rate I suppose there's really only so much that one can do.

Well, I really haven't seen judder as a big deal on any plasma I've seriously looked at. You would really have to look for it on specific movies to even notice it.

so is what is being said here is that every non-pioneer plasma ever made is unwatchable crap?

Well, I really haven't seen judder as a big deal on any plasma I've seriously looked at. You would really have to look for it on specific movies to even notice it.
I can assure you that it is NOT something you have to look for on those mountain scenes. Its extrememly noticeable.

Its not really a plasma problem but a general TV problem

Its not really a plasma problem but a general TV problem

Ok...so is the claim being made here that every non-pioneer hdtv made, plasma or otherwise, is unwatchable crap?

I can assure you that it is NOT something you have to look for on those mountain scenes. Its extrememly noticeable.

OK. Get a PS3 and Planet Earth on Blu-Ray and enable 1080/24p. Problem solved. The panning shots should be as smooth as silk. (Thats why I'm getting a PS3!) :D

OK. Get a PS3 and Planet Earth on Blu-Ray and enable 1080/24p. Problem solved. The panning shots should be as smooth as silk. (Thats why I'm getting a PS3!) :D

I'd love to see if that solves the whole problem. Obviously there would be no tv generated artifacts but I bet that the low frame rate would still show up as judder.

Maybe I should get a PS3. "Honey we have to get it!!! Think of the judder!" :)

jeff,
my bad, i did not make it clear but i have not yet purchased an hdtv; still looking and thought i had my tv picked out after weeks if not months of research and looking at them until i started reading this thread - we are still, at this time, watching a 32" panny flat crt on sd D*. i just don't seem to have the time/resources/wherewithall to do the discriminating evaluations the folks on this forum seem to have. i value and respect ya'lls opinions, hence my search for your advice/observations/recommendations. i just don't want to lay down $$$ for something i'm gonna be running/shipping back and forth to the dealer if something is unacceptable - hope i'm not coming across as lazy but dam (sp!), i'm almost scared to buy this new tech with all the complaints that can be made by somebody about something!!!

thanks,
dan

I can assure you that it is NOT something you have to look for on those mountain scenes. Its extrememly noticeable.

Having read your detailed description of what it looks like, and how erratic the smoothing feature is, is sure sounds like it must be very annoying. I wonder if there may be something else interfering with the smooth scanning feature. If I recall correctly, you do have the orbiter feature turned on. That is something that is actually a micro moving feature. Perhaps that is disrupting the smooth scanning lockon and smoothing function. How about testing it with the Orbiter turned off, and report back to us if that makes the smooth scanning feature work any better.

....

Almost all TVs (NTSC) are 60 and 24 (film source material) does not go into 60 so the fields are not multiplied evenly and that produces judder. All of us have had this problem with the TVs we have had. until resonantly, now you can easily get TVs such as this one that have rates that are a multiple of 24 so all the fields are multiplied evenly this removes judder.

Some of the first 72 or 120 panels still did the 3:2 pulldown :rolleyes: like the first 1080p panels that did not accept 1080p, but looks like this one does not have that problem :)

You do not need a 24 source to see the benefits as 1080i(FLIM)=108024p

As far as unwatchable goes, is SD unwatchable now that you have seen HD? The difference MAY not be as great but it is a noticeable difference.

You do not need a 24 source to see the benefits as 1080i(FLIM)=108024p

.

Please elaborate. Are you saying that I should set the output to 1080i? That would send a 60hz signal (although really 2 30hz ones) to the TV??

Are there any external video prcessors that can deal with this issue so that our choices aren't linited to just Pioneer?

It's only unwatchable crap if YOU think it's unwatchable crap....if you don't notice, then don't sweat it!

I notice it, and it really bugs me. 1080/24 will have no effect on this as the tv is still running 60Hz...this is why I'm asking the question about the panny industrial models and different refresh rates.

anyone know if this is possible?? 48 or 72 Hz refresh on a panny industrial?

Ben

Please elaborate. Are you saying that I should set the output to 1080i? That would send a 60hz signal (although really 2 30hz ones) to the TV??

If the set deinterlaces correctly then Film based 1080i60 is the same as 1080p24. So on a PS3 a BD would be the same 1080i60 or 1080p24 (also a lot of things on TV) If the set properly deinterlaces.

Are there any external video prcessors that can deal with this issue so that our choices aren't linited to just Pioneer?

A lot/most external VPs can handle 24 and multiples BUT if the set can not display 24 or a multiple of, then you would still have to do a 3:2 pulldown.

You think you're confused now, read the article at this link. It touches on the issues raised here. :cool:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/gearworks/1106gear/

so is what is being said here is that every non-pioneer plasma ever made is unwatchable crap?

__________________


Ok...so is the claim being made here that every non-pioneer hdtv made, plasma or otherwise, is unwatchable crap?
Deja vu again? :rolleyes:

OK. Get a PS3 and Planet Earth on Blu-Ray and enable 1080/24p. Problem solved. The panning shots should be as smooth as silk. (Thats why I'm getting a PS3!) :D
This does absolutely nothing to solve the "problem." :rolleyes:

You think you're confused now, read the article at this link. It touches on the issues raised here. :cool:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/gearworks/1106gear/This is an excellent article on the subject that I bookmarked some time ago. A key excerpt:

"Two caveats: Other Blu-ray players can output 1080p/24. If your TV can accept 1080p/24, then it is adding the 3:2 sequence, unless it is one of the very few TVs that can change its refresh rate. Pioneer plasmas can change their refresh rate to 72 Hz, and they do a simple 3:3 pulldown (showing each film frame three times). This looks slightly less jerky. "

__________________



Deja vu again? :rolleyes:


i was restating the question to include all tv's, not just plasma's as an earlier post said the problem wasn't limited to plasma's? :rolleyes:

Well crap no! I did a test yesterday watching the Chase scene at the beginning of Casino Royal as well as many scenes in Black Hawk down/Pirates and switch at my Samsung BD-P1200 (as well as the Pulldown mode on the 5080) to see if 24fps and 60 fps makes a difference. Well to me eyes it does. Buildings and the crane in CR showed no "stairs" on their edges in 24fps but some in 60 fps (again only visible if I force the 5080 to display 60hz). In general the movement in some scenes looked extremely smother and I think that it looks less blurry and more detailed in very fast movement. But the difference is not big!

Its not like a night and day difference; by far not! On DVD I could see any difference at all but maybe they are not 24fps or the process of upscaling makes it impossible to see differences to my eyes.
So yes to my eyes with Bluray it makes fast camera movements look really smooth and sharp and there nearly no judder (what I still saw as judder I think was due to the camera itself). The difference is maybe 5% of the overall picture but since fast movement detail looks really amazing its something I don't wanna miss.

judder will be on all progressive displays....I had a dlp and lcd front projector which I would run at 48Hz and they were smooth as silk!

Crt tv's don't really show the issue....

Ben

If the set deinterlaces correctly then Film based 1080i60 is the same as 1080p24. So on a PS3 a BD would be the same 1080i60 or 1080p24 (also a lot of things on TV) If the set properly deinterlaces.
This is not at all related to deinterlacing - it is simply an issue in the time domain. If the source material is 24fps there is no way to create 60 frames per second without introducing an "un-smooth" time transition or "jerkiness" - judder.

judder will be on all progressive displays....
Ben,

judder is not related to whether the display is i or p. It is a byproduct of taking 24fps and interprolating to 60fps in the time domain. Your projector at 48fps is a simple 2 X 24fps and no interprolating is required - thus no judder introduced.

Hi Magic,
If you have netflix or something similar you may want to rent Planet Earth Disc one and check out the chapter on Mountains. I'd be really interested in what you thought. That disk has some of the most extreme cases of judder that I've ever seen.

This is not at all related to deinterlacing - it is simply an issue in the time domain. If the source material is 24fps there is no way to create 60 frames per second without introducing an "un-smooth" time transition or "jerkiness" - judder.

For a 24fps source it is not related BUT film based 1080i60 is 1080p24 IF deinterlaced properly. So I was pointing out that you do NOT need a PS3 or such to see the advantages of the 3:3 pulldown.

You think you're confused now, read the article at this link. It touches on the issues raised here. :cool:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/gearworks/1106gear/

Don't know if this was directed at me but the article says the same thing I said.

You think you're confused now, read the article at this link. It touches on the issues raised here. :cool:

http://www.hometheatermag.com/gearworks/1106gear/

This is pretty interesting. No difference between 1080i and 1080p!!!!!!!!

I wonder if I should set the xbox output to 1080i, turn on advance (72hz) on the 5080 and let the tv deal with deinterlacing the signal and then scaling to 720p.

The way I see it this would happen.
The HDDVD source is recored in 1080p24hz and thats what's on the DVD.
Xbox performs 3:2 interlacing as per figure one in above link. NO information is lost but an extra half frame is added for every other one.
1080i60hz sent to TV via HDMI
TV set to advance
TV finds the extra half frame which xbox inserted and throws it away.
TV combines the two half 1080i frames to recreate 1080p24hz picture.
TV scales down the picture to 720p24hz
TV adds two extra frames for each one to create 720p72hz and displays this.

With the exception of the downscaling to 720p24hz there doesn't seem to be any loss of information anywhere!!!! The picture is exactly like it was laid down on the original disk. Any judder which is entirely due to the low original frame rate. LIke someone mentioned earlier this assumes that the TV correctly deinterlaces the 1080i signal. That is throws the correct half scenes away and correcly detects that the original source was 24hz and not the 60hz which is actually coming through.

Seems like the real solution is for filmmakers to move into the 21st century from the 19th century and step up the frame rate!!!!!!!

Even movie theaters have a bit of 'judder'... as in when the camera pans there's some 'blinking' of objects. 24fps... alot less than 60fps.

Don't know if this was directed at me but the article says the same thing I said.

I just thought it was informative and related to what is being discussed.
What were you saying?

So, does anyone else here think the display should automatically switch to 72Hz in the following two cases?

Input is a 24p signal
Display detects film content and is doing 3:2 pulldown


There's probably a visible stutter when switching between 60Hz and 72Hz, but it could be optional. I wouldn't mind it since I'd know it's doing the right thing when I switch between HBO and CBS Sports!

- LoopinFool

So, does anyone else here think the display should automatically switch to 72Hz in the following two cases?

Input is a 24p signal
Display detects film content and is doing 3:2 pulldown


There's probably a visible stutter when switching between 60Hz and 72Hz, but it could be optional. I wouldn't mind it since I'd know it's doing the right thing when I switch between HBO and CBS Sports!

- LoopinFool

So you have it set on cinemaMode Advance and then forget about it? I can't imagine that there would be any stutter as 2:3pulldown is either on or off. Movies don't switch between the two.

Even movie theaters have a bit of 'judder'... as in when the camera pans there's some 'blinking' of objects. 24fps... alot less than 60fps.
It's been reported that Boston Red Sox slugger Ted Williams could not comfortably watch a movie because he would see each frame as an indvidual image.

For reference purposes... excerpt from the 7th gen Pio Pdp4270HD spec sheet:

"Advanced Pure Cinema with 3:3 pull down, film-based material on DVD, videotape or even regular TV will match the smooth and nature (sp) reproduction seen in a movie theatre"

It's been reported that Boston Red Sox slugger Ted Williams could not comfortably watch a movie because he would see each frame as an indvidual image.

I wonder what my cats see when watching TV??? pixels/stills??

... my cats ...

I thought dogs had owners. Cats have staff. :cool:

Even movie theaters have a bit of 'judder'... as in when the camera pans there's some 'blinking' of objects. 24fps... alot less than 60fps.

Very true, but it's efficient and considered "enough".

The judder being discussed here is that not every movie frame is displayed for the same length of time.

Because 59.94Hz is not an even multiple of 24Hz, some frames will be displayed for 33.37 ms and others for 50.05 ms. All frames should last an even 41.67 ms. This uneven frame length causes visible "judder".

This also happens on interlaced displays with 3:2 pulldown content, but it's not as objectionable. I think it's because the fields are blended together, so it's not such a sudden shift, and we're used to it (probably the biggest reason!).

- LoopinFool

It's been reported that Boston Red Sox slugger Ted Williams could not comfortably watch a movie because he would see each frame as an indvidual image.

Now he can only watch a freeze frame.


....

Very true, but it's efficient and considered "enough".

The judder being discussed here is that not every movie frame is displayed for the same length of time.

- LoopinFool

Sure but when watching it may well be hard to determine which judder is caused by the slow frame rate when panning and which is a 24/60 problem.

When using 3:3 pulldown from a 1080p source (HDDVD/BD) I don't really see how there could be any problem other than from the slow frame rate. All frames are on the screen the same amount and deinterlacing (in case of 1080i) shouldn't be a problem since the two scans are taken at the same time (not like TV where even/odd lines are filmed at a 1/30sec offset.

Now he can only watch a freeze frame.
....
:D :D :D

bak_phy

That's how it is supposed to work but remember that it only works IF 1-the content is film based and 2-the set properly deinterlaces. It will work for cable and satellite too if 1 & 2 are also met. It will not work for most sporting events, news or if for channel originally brodcast is 720p.

I should add that deinterlacing is not as easy as you might think and very few TVs can do it well. More seem to do video better then Film. This set seems (by what others have said) to have a force mode for film but it could still have cadence problems if it does not detect the flags or the flags are not present.

Doesn't seem like deinterlacing should be any sort of problem when there is no real time delay between the two half frames. Just slap one into the other. No processing needed. Different situation entirely if the two half frames are not in fact part of the same exact picture as in video. Funny that it would be harder with film than with video. Clearly I'm missing something

AS far as I can tell there is NO force mode. You can just elect to give the TV the option to do various film tricks if it detects the need.

AS far as I can tell there is NO force mode. You can just elect to give the TV the option to do various film tricks if it detects the need.
If the user setting is a hint, that's fine with me.

I think my 433CMX is always in 72Hz mode and I don't much mind how it looks for film or video sources. I also don't think my old set does 3:2 pulldown on 1080i content, so perhaps it's 72Hz native rate helps there!

- LoopinFool

Doesn't seem like deinterlacing should be any sort of problem when there is no real time delay between the two half frames. Just slap one into the other. No processing needed. Different situation entirely if the two half frames are not in fact part of the same exact picture as in video. Funny that it would be harder with film than with video. Clearly I'm missing something

Film should be easier but it only works on film, video works for both so most manufacturers spend money and time on that.

Film deinterlacing has it own problems the VP first has to detect that it is a film source then it has to figure out what fields to "slap together" and what fields to drop. Video that is inaccurately deinterlaced as Film looks very bad (it jumps all over the place) so most/all VPs default to video as it may/does drop information but still looks good.

Deinterlacing is not an easy task and is very demanding on the VP.

Here is an interesting article on last years TVs

http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/1106hook/

I have not seen tests for this years TVs I would hope they would do better as according to there test 80% of the 61 TVs tested failed the Film deinterlacing tests.

I did read that article. The 5070 passed so I'm sure this one will as well.
Thanks

For a 24fps source it is not related BUT film based 1080i60 is 1080p24 IF deinterlaced properly. So I was pointing out that you do NOT need a PS3 or such to see the advantages of the 3:3 pulldown.

This didn't occur to me until you posted this, but it would make sense to manually turn this feature (3:3 Pull Down) on when watching pre-recorded (i.e. not live) prime time TV shows like Lost. Right?

Edit: I thought about this more last night. First, Lost was a bad example since it is broadcast on ABC (in 720p), should've said CSI.

Second, I think what I said also makes no sense. The 3:3 is for a 24 fps signal as far as I know. You would be getting a 60 fps signal with 1080i. The TV would first have to take that and do an a reverse telecine to get the original 24 fps and then use 3:3 to display it at 72 Hz.

Finally, does this mean that pre-recorded shows like Lost are recorded at 24 fps, telecined to 60fps and broadcast with judder?

need your opinion. i have 48" width EXACTLY in which to put a tv. i want to put as MUCH tv as possible in this space. the only 50" tv (do not want LCD per reading this forum for months) that fits is the panny px75u, and that is JUST BARELY (47.7" wide). is all this talk of judder enough to make me downsize to 42" pioneer just to avoid these pq issues? any input will be very helpful (make some suggestions if you like!). oh, and anti-glare is factoring in to some degree! thank you all.

respectfully,
dan

I am moving up to High Def DVDs. Just got a PS3 and a HD-A20. I need to buy a TV which can do justice to them. I would like to get a 1080p display which supports 24fps. What are my options? I am open to everything including an RPTV, a projector and of course FP. Even the choice of rooms is open; we are currently renting. If I do not want to spend more than $2000 what are my options?

need your opinion. i have 48" width EXACTLY in which to put a tv. i want to put as MUCH tv as possible in this space. the only 50" tv (do not want LCD per reading this forum for months) that fits is the panny px75u, and that is JUST BARELY (47.7" wide). is all this talk of judder enough to make me downsize to 42" pioneer just to avoid these pq issues? any input will be very helpful (make some suggestions if you like!). oh, and anti-glare is factoring in to some degree! thank you all.

respectfully,
dan

The best recommendation would be to go look at the TVs. I don't think anyone here can tell you if judder is an issue for you.

The best recommendation would be to go look at the TVs. I don't think anyone here can tell you if judder is an issue for you.
You mean to say whether my eyes can perceive it? I do not want to take a chance :).

Right now is there a master list of all the displays which support 1080p/24Hz and HDMI 1.3?

You mean to say whether my eyes can perceive it? I do not want to take a chance :).

Right now is there a master list of all the displays which support 1080p/24Hz and HDMI 1.3?

I haven't seen it personally, but just reading stuff around here, some people see it and it drives them nuts, some people see it but don't mind and some people don't see it.

Some others indicate that by displaying the same frame 3 or 5 times in a row, it introduces other problems.

Someone mentioned artifacts, but I'm not quite sure how/why you would get artifcats unless the TV was doing some additional processing.

And finally, there is judder caused by the 3:2 pull down and then there is natural judder in film because 24 fps isn't all that fast.

A couple od points here...

deinterlacing should become less of an issue with players outputting 1080p/24...but judder will always be an issue if the tv only does 60Hz.

You will notice judder, but certainly not in a lot of scenes...I think for many it's a non-issue, but I believe we should expect the best from manufacturers like Panasonic and Pioneer. And with movie viewing being my #1 concern, why not allow me to view smooth movies??

- I want options for refresh rates for smooth playback....seems like Pioneer wins here
- I want reference color rendition, including primaries, I don't want a color gamut altered to look better in a showroom...perhaps Panasonic wins here?
- I want the crt quality blacks ... Panasonic??
- I want crt quality on/off contrast....Pioneer??

If one of these manufacturers makes this happen, they should dominate the market and the will get my money too!!

^^It seems to me the 8G Pioneer Elites will win out in all four of your want list. Your wait is over, but dominating the market doesn't seem possible with Pioneer pricing.

.

Second, I think what I said also makes no sense. The 3:3 is for a 24 fps signal as far as I know. You would be getting a 60 fps signal with 1080i. The TV would first have to take that and do an a reverse telecine to get the original 24 fps and then use 3:3 to display it at 72 Hz.

Finally, does this mean that pre-recorded shows like Lost are recorded at 24 fps, telecined to 60fps and broadcast with judder?

That's why I always say that it has to deinterlace correctly first so it can get the 1080p24 to see the benefits.

I don't watch Lost so I don't know if it is film or video, some/most TV shows are but not all.

I am moving up to High Def DVDs. Just got a PS3 and a HD-A20. I need to buy a TV which can do justice to them. I would like to get a 1080p display which supports 24fps. What are my options? I am open to everything including an RPTV, a projector and of course FP. Even the choice of rooms is open; we are currently renting. If I do not want to spend more than $2000 what are my options?

LCD

That's why I always say that it has to deinterlace correctly first so it can get the 1080p24 to see the benefits.

I don't watch Lost so I don't know if it is film or video, some/most TV shows are but not all.

I wonder if any TVs can do a reverse telecine. Also, in the CNet reviews, they seem to turn on 3:3 when not getting a 24 fps signal. I wonder how that works.

need your opinion. i have 48" width EXACTLY in which to put a tv. i want to put as MUCH tv as possible in this space. the only 50" tv (do not want LCD per reading this forum for months) that fits is the panny px75u, and that is JUST BARELY (47.7" wide). is all this talk of judder enough to make me downsize to 42" pioneer just to avoid these pq issues? any input will be very helpful (make some suggestions if you like!). oh, and anti-glare is factoring in to some degree! thank you all.

respectfully,
dan


Dan,

I've been working with similar constraints and the Fujitsu 50" models and Panasonic 50" commercial units would fit in that space. They are 47.6-47.9" wide. Vidikron, and Pioneer 50" models are a little larger at about 48-1/4-48-1/2" I believe. I can't say if these models will help with your Judder concerns, but it would give you more options. One possibility might be a commercial Panasonic and an external processor.

Does anyone know for sure if the 2007 Samsung DLP-RP can pass 1080p/24fps without doing the 3:2 pulldown?

The specs for the light wheel talks about the 14400 rpm = 240rounds/second. After accounting for the wobulation, that would correspond to 120Hz. This would suggest pure 24fps support (5:5). Can someone confirm?

thanks for the heads up on the fuji's RPNYC, it sux to be in this width constraint = limited 50" selection. i'm taking some time for myself today (father's day!!!), and i will be going to BB to look at the tvs they have on display. anybody know if the xx80 pio's are there yet?

Any LCD or plasma anyone that you know of that have passed the silicon optix cd which is used to test appropriate deinterlacing and to test the absence of jagged edges such as the american flag or mountains? Thanks.

Finally, does this mean that pre-recorded shows like Lost are recorded at 24 fps, telecined to 60fps and broadcast with judder?

bump

seems to be 24fps based on this(could be mixed I guess). Make sense to be film style framerate based on the content.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0411008/technical


5080 are out, ps3 outputs 24fps, let seem some judder reviews. Hell I will take a 5070/ps3 review. Dont understand where artifacts would come from that CNET complains about if you are using 1080p24, want some real user feedback.

bump

seems to be 24fps based on this(could be mixed I guess). Make sense to be film style framerate based on the content.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0411008/technical


5080 are out, ps3 outputs 24fps, let seem some judder reviews. Hell I will take a 5070/ps3 review. Dont understand where artifacts would come from that CNET complains about if you are using 1080p24, want some real user feedback.

I am also curious to how the 5080 performed with the 24fps output. Feedback on this would be great :)

Bump

How long until Plasma goes 120Hz and solves all problems?

Samsung's two 120hz 1080p LCDs coming to CES, and stores, in 2007 (http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/06/samsung-announces-two-120hz-1080p-lcds-coming-to-ces-and-stores/)


How long until Plasma goes 120Hz and solves all problems?

I know about LCDs and Sony XBR5 SXRDs--what I want to know is when will PLASMA go at a refresh rate of 120 solving all problems with 24, 30, and 60 based material--both film and video?

That's the ticket--get rid of ALL forms of judder with perfect multiples. When will it happen? Would it be too costly to implement with PLASMAS?

I know about LCDs and Sony XBR5 SXRDs--what I want to know is when will PLASMA go at a refresh rate of 120 solving all problems with 24, 30, and 60 based material--both film and video?

That's the ticket--get rid of ALL forms of judder with perfect multiples. When will it happen? Would it be too costly to implement with PLASMAS?

That's true...the 120hz is a critical element in establishing smooth motion in film. The 8th generation Pioneers will not fully resolve all the problems associated with judder even with 1080p/24. It appears we are at least a year away from seeing a plasma with 120hz.

I have read in several reviews that they are not happy with this feature and several that love this feature. The ones that loved this feature also made sure to mention that it works best with an interlaced signal such as 480i and 1080i. They made no mention of using it with progressive images.

I have read in several reviews that they are not happy with this feature and several that love this feature. The ones that loved this feature also made sure to mention that it works best with an interlaced signal such as 480i and 1080i. They made no mention of using it with progressive images.

Interesting...but seeing that Blu-ray & HD-DVD are both 1080p, it wouldn't do a whole lot of good if that is indeed the case.

So if i see judder which i do in my 433cmx Pioneer I should wait until 9th generation Pioneers to stop seeing this effect.I was soon to upgrade to Pioneer 1080p but if i have to wait a year I will.

So if i see judder which i do in my 433cmx Pioneer I should wait until 9th generation Pioneers to stop seeing this effect.I was soon to upgrade to Pioneer 1080p but if i have to wait a year I will.

You will have to wait at least a year or 2...

Hopefully the LCD juggernaut of inferiority will not drive plasma out of the market by then.

Hopefully the LCD juggernaut of inferiority will not drive plasma out of the market by then.

Well for whatever reason, it's just an easier science to install those attributes into an LCD. I doubt it will be too long before they can get them crammed into a plasma. They eventually figured out how to get 1080p there, they will do the same with 120hz.

24x3=72 ?

LCD goes to 120hz because it trying to get rid of motion blur. Plasma does not have a motion blur problem so all it has to do is solve film judder(24hz) so 72hz is enough.

On my 5 year old pioneer 433cmx it only allows the pure cinema mode on analog connection.Not available on hd input or dvd component input.My dvd connection is where I see lots of judder(I called it motion blur).Never see it on my analog connection with sd cable.I keep the pure cinema mode at high quality setting and i guess its working.Seems like pure cinema pulldown settings on 8g pioneers are available in all inputs.

24x3=72 ?

LCD goes to 120hz because it trying to get rid of motion blur. Plasma does not have a motion blur problem so all it has to do is solve film judder(24hz) so 72hz is enough.

I understand what you're saying. However, 1080p/24 that they're incorporating in plasmas has not been flawless. The 7th generation Pioneers had the 1080p/24 installed, but it was ineffective. A lot of artifacts distorted the picture. Apparently, the 8th generation Pioneers still have issues with 1080p/24. It may be a while before its perfected. I'm not a plasma expert, but I would think in the future they would implement the 120hz in plasmas so that 1080p/60 source would also go without judder.

Huh? I thought that both the Pioneer Pro-FHD1 and the new 8G Pioneers could refresh at BOTH 60 and 72 hertz, thus mitigating the 24p vs. 60p issue.

This didn't occur to me until you posted this, but it would make sense to manually turn this feature (3:3 Pull Down) on when watching pre-recorded (i.e. not live) prime time TV shows like Lost. Right?

Edit: I thought about this more last night. First, Lost was a bad example since it is broadcast on ABC (in 720p), should've said CSI.

Second, I think what I said also makes no sense. The 3:3 is for a 24 fps signal as far as I know. You would be getting a 60 fps signal with 1080i. The TV would first have to take that and do an a reverse telecine to get the original 24 fps and then use 3:3 to display it at 72 Hz.

Finally, does this mean that pre-recorded shows like Lost are recorded at 24 fps, telecined to 60fps and broadcast with judder?

Actually I think that your post makes quite a bit of sense.

If the video processor in the Pioneer can distinguish between a film based source that was shot in 24p and then telecined into 60i vs. a sports event that was shot in 1080i video, then the 3:3 pull down should work. Whether or not it actually works would have to be tested.

as for the 4801i or 1080i setting or 24p needed by pioneer is pretty normal. Most if all tv(at least new ones) can do inverse telecine, 3:2 pulldown on interlace sources but dont do it on progressive since it is more difficult and less standard/needed. You are not losing any info if you are giving it a film based 1080i source and it does 3:2 pulldown detection properly.

still dont understand why the pioneer produce artifacts, need to see with my own eyes. Seems so simple if you feed it a 24p source, just repeat each frame 3 times.

Actually I think that your post makes quite a bit of sense.

If the video processor in the Pioneer can distinguish between a film based source that was shot in 24p and then telecined into 60i vs. a sports event that was shot in 1080i video, then the 3:3 pull down should work. Whether or not it actually works would have to be tested.

Yeah, I've been thinking about it more. I guess we'd have to know exactly what is happening when you select that mode. Is the mode applicable to a 60 fps input or only a 24 fps input? If so, does it behave differently for each. I guess there are supposed to be flags embedded in the signal to tell you these things. There has to be something to tell the processor which frames to combine and throw out since you don't want it starting on the wrong frame to do the processing.

I also guess it would work on 720p signals from 24 fps material. Should just be simpler since it would only be an inverse telecine (no deinterlacing).

Most if all tv(at least new ones) can do inverse telecine, 3:2 pulldown on interlace sources but dont do it on progressive since it is more difficult and less standard/needed.

Why would this be more difficult? Presumably, all that was done to the 24 fps was repeating the frames in a 3:2 cadence. The processor should only need to toss out frames and repeat others.

Why would this be more difficult? Presumably, all that was done to the 24 fps was repeating the frames in a 3:2 cadence. The processor should only need to toss out frames and repeat others.

just guessing but yeah probably not terrible more difficult but they would need to detect the 3:2 pattern so larger frame buffer needed since full frame instead of half. I think it is more of a issue of just implementing it, progressive used to be the gold standard, if had that signal then you where good and you would just display it at 60hz. Now with 72 or 120 hz it is not and you again need to process the progressive signal like you have to do with the interlaced.

LG just released a new line of plasmas that supports 1080p/24 and there avalible now

BB just has the 60inch listed on there site for under 5K and finding street prices even cheaper already

They look very interesting to me as a less expensive alternative to the upcoming pioneers but I don't know all that much about it all

Looking for some comments from the experts in this thread

LG 1080p/24 Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=868933)

I am a new owner of a Pioneer 1150 plasma television. My source is a Pioneer DV-46AV DVD player connected via HDMI. I was curious about how well the 1150's PureCinema modes worked to eliminate judder. Although the owner's manual does not provide specific information on Pioneer's PureCinema mode settings, I believe that PureCinema Advanced mode is Pioneer's implementation of 72Hz inverse telecine 3:3 conversion for 24 frame per second video sources.

First I had to find a scene in one of the DVDs in my collection that clearly exhibited judder. I found such a scene in the film LA Confidential. It is in the scene where Officer White (Russell Crowe) is questioning Pierce Patchet (David Strathairn) on Patchet's driveway.

Crowe paces back and forth and walks in front of Strathain several times. There is visible judder, at least on my system, just after David Stratairn speaks the line, "Lynn Bracken is my Veronica Lake."

These are my initial test results:

DVD output set to 480i:
PureCinema mode: Off, there was no noticeable judder
PureCinema mode: Standard, there was no noticeable judder
PureCinema mode: Smooth, there was very noticeable judder
PureCinema mode: Advanced, there was no noticeable judder

DVD output set to 480p:
PureCinema mode: Off, there was no noticeable judder
PureCinema mode: Smooth, there was very noticeable judder
PureCinema mode: Advanced, there was no noticeable judder
Note: Standard mode not available at 480p


DVD output set to 720p:
PureCinema mode: Off, there was no noticeable judder
PureCinema mode: Smooth, there was very noticeable judder
PureCinema mode: Advanced, there was no noticeable judder
Note: Standard mode not available at 720p

DVD output set to 1080i:
PureCinema mode: Off, there was no noticeable judder
PureCinema mode: Standard, there was no noticeable judder
PureCinema mode: Smooth, there was very noticeable judder
PureCinema mode: Advanced, there was no noticeable judder

Note: The DV-46AV does not offer output at 1080p.


Conclusion: Since I normally set the DVD player to output at 720p, as I believe this gives the best picture, I will either set PureCinema mode to Off or to Advanced mode but will avoid Smooth mode as it appears to degrade the video image when there is judder.

Ironically enough it's supposed to fix the judder during pans. I found that it makes for a much worse picture as well.

Please note that there are two technologies in place here:

- a feature to eliminate judder.
- a feature to eliminate Strobing.

Judder is uneven motion rendering, Strobing is the flashing of moving objects because of low framerate.

Judder elimination:
72 hz mode with 3:3 pulldown.
To eliminate the judder of (60/24) screen refresh is changed to 72hz and every frame is repeated 3 times. This ensures that motion of 24hz sources (or deinterlaced 60i with 3:2 pulldown) is rendered correctly.
The look is judder free, but strobing is still very visible. This is just like in the cinema, because a 24 fps framerate is low for fast motion. Note that this is the way it should be.

Strobing elimination:
To enhance the look further, instead of repeating the frame three times, the set uses an advanced image interpolator.
This means that the set tries to recreate the two frames that would have existed between the current frames. This is done using motion estimation, where all motion and objects are tracked and new frames are created by rendering the objects at the positions that motion would put them.
The look will be much smoother because the strobing is eliminated, at best it will look like true 72 fps photography.
Unfortunately the process is not perfect. The realtime process has to detect and recreate all objects on screen and it will fail to detect the correct edges or object correlation from time to time. This results in artifacts around edges, and that objects will shift from 24 Hz to 72 Hz from time to time.
Also, for a real film buff, the 24 fps look IS cinema, the 72 fps recreation will have a video quality to it because it's simply too smooth.

The newer 120 Hz sets work the same way by repeating the frame 5 times and by interpolation into 120 fps. The good thing about 120 Hz is that the process will work on 60i material as well by using motion compensated deinterlacing directly to 120 fps/Hz

So neither 72 Hz or 120 Hz is going to solve all problems.
Judder elimination will solve the judder of 60hz screens, but some will still get headaches over the strobing present in 24p.
Strobing elimination will solve the headaches, but artifacts will be present and the motion rendering is closer to video than film (according to some)

In my mind 72 Hz or 120 Hz without interpolation is the best way to do it.

Also note that wherever talking about video and tv's:

24p is actually 23.976
60i is actually 59.94
72hz is actually 71,928
120hz is actually 119.88

It's just truncated to be more accessible in marketing material.

Please note that there are two technologies in place here:

- a feature to eliminate judder.
- a feature to eliminate Strobing.



I only noticed the judder because I had my 1150HD set to PureCinema Smooth mode (the DVD player output was set to 720p).

So if I were to attempt to quantify the different PureCinema modes:

Standard mode uses a 3:2 pulldown technology, and displays the resulting frames at 60Hz (ok 59.94Hz). PureCinema Standard mode is designed for 480i and 1080i interlaced video.

Smooth mode also uses 3:2 pulldown technology, while interpolating missing frames in an attempt to reduce strobing. PureCinema Smooth mode is designed for 480i and 1080i interlaced video, but can also work with 480p and 720p non-interlaced video with varying results.

Enhanced mode performs 3:3 display of 24 fps material. Each frame is displayed for three uniform time intervals at a screen refresh rate of 72Hz (71.928Hz). There are no missing frames to fill in, so no interpolation of missing frames is needed. PureCinema Advanced mode is designed for the latest 1080p 24fps HD video, but can also work with 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i, and 1080p(60) video with varying results.

Perhaps Smooth mode will work better with a different scene where strobing, not judder, is visible.

The momentary judder I see when viewing LA Confidential (see my earlier post on Judder) reminds me of the scene in The Matrix where the black cat crosses the doorway, and then does it again. The visible distortion surrounding Pierce Patchet's head when Officer White walks in front of Patchet reminds me of the movement of that black cat. Maybe Patchet's dark hair has something to do with this artifact being displayed in Smooth mode.

Will the New 1080p Pioneers have what it takes to deal with the judder issue
will they support the below refresh rates ?



24p is actually 23.976
60i is actually 59.94
72hz is actually 71,928
120hz is actually 119.88

Assuming that 3:3 (72Hz) or 5:5 (120Hz) is done perfectly or even done at all in the case of 120Hz displays, then there should be no difference between them in the motion portrayal regarding 24Hz film.

For both 3:3 and 5:5 the display time per unique frame is an identical 42 milliseconds.

As a.holck points out even 42 milliseconds per frame produces a characteristic judder (which he calls strobing) and which the film industry likes to call the "film look". I'm not certain but I believe that the frame interpolation used by the current 120Hz LCDs is only used on 60Hz sources for the purpose of reducing motion blurring (which is why it was created). For 24Hz sources 5:5 is done only, and in some cases not at all it seams.

Where 3:3(72) and 5:5(120) are supposed to help is the elimination of unsymmetric judder of 3:2 (60) which displays the first frame for 50 milliseconds and the second for 33 milliseconds.

In the end the ideal way to eliminate judder completely is to source more frames per second during filming.


BTW, why would 1080p (60Hz) source produce judder if it is displayed at 60Hz??

Cheers

3:3 or 5:5 pulldown is only helpful if you send the TV 1080p24, 1080i60 (film) or maybe 480i60 (film) if you send it 720p60 and you force 3:3 it would look juddery.

Simple put film is shot at 24fps so if you multiply the frames evenly (48,72,120) it will look smooth. If you use a TV that only displays 60 some frames are repeated more then others causing judder.

If you send the TV 480p60, 720p60 or 1080p60 you will see no benefit as 3:2 pulldown has already taken place with no way to get back to the original 24fps.

1080i60 (film) properly deinterlaced gives you 1080p24. Most TVs at that point do a 3:2 pulldown to convert it to 60 then scales it, a TV that can do a multiple of 24 does a 3:3, 5:5 or such and then scales it.

I will say again though that most TVs do not deinterlace properly, I hear how most modern displays do deinterlace well. I have not seen any test to back that, last year 80% or so FAILED film deinterlacing so I do not know how anyone can say it is not a problem with modern displays. Maybe the TV industry did a complete turn around in one year but I doubt it.

Also most TVs that do 120 still do 3:2 pulldown to get to 60 and then dubble that (LCDs at any rate) this helps with blur but not judder.

BTW, why would 1080p (60Hz) source produce judder if it is displayed at 60Hz??

Cheers

Because if it was shot as film it already had 3:2 applied, it was just done else where (other then the TV) like inside the player or at the broadcaster (in the case of 720p)

Also most TVs that do 120 still do 3:2 pulldown to get to 60 and then dubble that (LCDs at any rate) this helps with blur but not judder.

Thanks, that is very helpful. Do you know if the new Samsung 81 series will do this or will they be able to take a 1080p24fps input and display it exactly five times?

Thanks, that is very helpful. Do you know if the new Samsung 81 series will do this or will they be able to take a 1080p24fps input and display it exactly five times?

Wish I knew :) Don't even know for sure that it will be 120, some specs say it is and others say its not.

Some one on that thread said it would and display it at 48. Guess we will just have to wait to find out.

Why would this be more difficult? Presumably, all that was done to the 24 fps was repeating the frames in a 3:2 cadence. The processor should only need to toss out frames and repeat others.

What frames does it toss out? The VP has no way of knowing what frames have been tripled and what frames have been dubbled, if it just guesses you would end up with very bad cadence problems. This is NOT as easy as it sounds.

With interlaced matearial there should be flags to help with this, progressive does not have them.

What frames does it toss out? The VP has no way of knowing what frames have been tripled and what frames have been dubbled, if it just guesses you would end up with very bad cadence problems. This is NOT as easy as it sounds.

With interlaced matearial there should be flags to help with this, progressive does not have them.

I see, I didn't know the spec, I presumed there would be a flag in there to assist. I agree just guessing wouldn't work so well. You'd need some type of toggle to switch "modes" so it would toss out a different set of frames (the pattern wouldn't change, just the "starting" frame.)

Alternatively, I'm not sure how difficult it would be for a processor to figure it out.

It would know by the 6th frame maximum in all situations. So you would have an 83 ms delay while it tried to figure it out.

If you send the TV 480p60, 720p60 or 1080p60 you will see no benefit as 3:2 pulldown has already taken place with no way to get back to the original 24fps.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be more proper to say reverse 3:2 pulldown or re-interleaving here?


I will say again though that most TVs do not deinterlace properly, I hear how most modern displays do deinterlace well. I have not seen any test to back that, last year 80% or so FAILED film deinterlacing so I do not know how anyone can say it is not a problem with modern displays. Maybe the TV industry did a complete turn around in one year but I doubt it.

And again here, don't most TV's just do a reverse 3:2 pulldown or re-interleaving as opposed to actually deinterlacing?

Thanks for your knowledgeable posts.

You'd need some type of toggle to switch "modes" so it would toss out a different set of frames (the pattern wouldn't change, just the "starting" frame.)

Alternatively, I'm not sure how difficult it would be for a processor to figure it out.

It would know by the 6th frame maximum in all situations. So you would have an 83 ms delay while it tried to figure it out.

Don't get me wrong it can be done but I know of no TV that has anywhere near that capability in fact I don't think there is a external VP that can do, at least <5K.

I use a Vision HDP external VP and it does a great deinterlacing HD and an OK job with SD, a friend has a VP50 and that does a much better job with SD than mine (HD about the same).

They both can change the frame rate to almost any thing you could want but neither can take 1080p60 and convert it to the original 108024 you will see "missed" frames from time to time. For clarification my HDP can not take in 1080p60 but is limited to a max of 1080p30(?) but the principle works for 720p60 too.

And again here, don't most TV's just do a reverse 3:2 pulldown or re-interleaving as opposed to actually deinterlacing?


Inverse Telecine is deinterlacing for film, last year about 80% failed to properly do this.

I am not a big wikipedia fan but this is a good read and gives you most of the basics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinterlacing

Don't get me wrong it can be done but I know of no TV that has anywhere near that capability in fact I don't think there is a external VP that can do, at least <5K.

I use a Vision HDP external VP and it does a great deinterlacing HD and an OK job with SD, a friend has a VP50 and that does a much better job with SD than mine (HD about the same).

They both can change the frame rate to almost any thing you could want but neither can take 1080p60 and convert it to the original 108024 you will see "missed" frames from time to time. For clarification my HDP can not take in 1080p60 but is limited to a max of 1080p30(?) but the principle works for 720p60 too.

I appreciate your clarification. It points out the limitations of the 3:3 or 5:5 features on current TVs.

I appreciate your clarification. It points out the limitations of the 3:3 or 5:5 features on current TVs.

Really it is a great thing if done right. If the TV can properly do film deinterlacing then you will see the benefit.

It get confusing though. You are better off feeding the TV 1080i60 then 720p60 or 1080p60. So if you have a BD player that does not do 1080p24 you should send it 1080i60 because the TV could then do Inverse Telecine to get the original 1080p24 then do 3:3, 5:5. You then get a nice smooth image.

My 5 year old 433cmx from pioneer has a pure cinema offering but only if you are using 480i for dvd or ntsc signal.It gives choice of standard or hq.I never used it with dvd for I always went with 480p.I felt this was a better pq but Ive always had judder and it has bothered me.Looking at upgrade to new 8g pioneer and wondered if more options for removing judder exist or is the pure cinema on 8g pioneer same as what I have on my 433cmx?I just hate judder but only see it on dvd playback.My sd cable and hd cable are fine.

Inverse Telecine is deinterlacing for film, last year about 80% failed to properly do this.

I am not a big wikipedia fan but this is a good read and gives you most of the basics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinterlacing

Thanks for the link. It was a good refresher on the differences between deinterlacing and “reverse” or “inverse” telecine. I recall reading a similar article on about 6 years ago.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

However, my point was that “reverse” or “inverse” Telecine is better referred to as "reverse 3:2 pull-down" or "3:2 pull-down detection"...not just "3:2 pull-down".

I don't mean to nitpick here, it's just that my simple brain gets easily confused when people refer to “reverse” or “inverse” Telecine as simply "3:2 pulldown" in these technical discussions.

Now with all that said, rereading your posts I find that it was I who was confused and your wording was technically correct. Please forgive me for butting in.

For what it's worth, I have the Pioneer 5080HD and use the PS3 as a blue-ray player. When I turn Pure Cinema Advance on, there is zero judder with PS3 blue-ray movies. I use standard for HD and SD TV and there is zero judder. If someone is worried about judder and is in the market for a 50" plasma, get the 5080HD or a TV with a similar option to force 72Hz and/or accept a 24fps signal.

I don't mean to nitpick here, it's just that my simple brain gets easily confused when people refer to “reverse” or “inverse” Telecine as simply "3:2 pulldown" in these technical discussions. Manufacturers get this wrong constantly. When you see 3:2 pulldown listed in the specs it actually means reverse 3:2 pulldown (film de-interlacing).

The most prevelant mistake that has perpetuated throughout the industry and consumers (including this board) is the use of the term "resolution". 1920x1080 is not a resolution it is a definition (# of pixels), hence the correct term "high definition". I have given up on this one and use "resolution" incorectly as well :)

Cheers

The most prevelant mistake that has perpetuated throughout the industry and consumers (including this board) is the use of the term "resolution". 1920x1080 is not a resolution

No, you've got it backwards 1920x1080 is exactly a resolution. "Resolution" is defined in terms of number of horizontal
and vertical pixels ( by convention, the format is horizontal count x vertical count).
So whether it is 1920x1080, 1x2398, or any other positive values in these two
fields, this format defines the resolution of a planar device.
On a related note, "1080P" is the most misused term in referring to resolution.
1080P is a display format, not a resolution. It cannot be resolution since it
doesn't state the number of horizontal pixels.
The problem with this is that any manufacturer can correctly advertize '1080P resolution'
and can be referring to a display of , say, 1280x720 resolution. If those 720 scanlines are
upconverted and reformated to a 1080P display format, then it can be correctly advertized as a '1080P Television'. The consumer would then think that he is
buying a full res 1920x1080 TV when in fact he is getting a low res
1280x720 TV.

No, you've got it backwards 1920x1080 is exactly a resolution. "Resolution" is defined in terms of number of horizontal
and vertical pixels ( by convention, the format is horizontal count x vertical count).
So whether it is 1920x1080, 1x2398, or any other positive values in these two
fields, this format defines the resolution of a planar device.
On a related note, "1080P" is the most misused term in referring to resolution.
1080P is a display format, not a resolution. It cannot be resolution since it
doesn't state the number of horizontal pixels.
The problem with this is that any manufacturer can correctly advertize '1080P resolution'
and can be referring to a display of , say, 1280x720 resolution. If those 720 scanlines are
upconverted and reformated to a 1080P display format, then it can be correctly advertized as a '1080P Television'. The consumer would then think that he is
buying a full res 1920x1080 TV when in fact he is getting a low res
1280x720 TV.

DirecTV advertises 1280x1080 as 1080i. :)

No, you've got it backwards 1920x1080 is exactly a resolution. "Resolution" is defined in terms of number of horizontal
and vertical pixels ( by convention, the format is horizontal count x vertical count).
So whether it is 1920x1080, 1x2398, or any other positive values in these two
fields, this format defines the resolution of a planar device.
On a related note, "1080P" is the most misused term in referring to resolution.
1080P is a display format, not a resolution. It cannot be resolution since it
doesn't state the number of horizontal pixels.
The problem with this is that any manufacturer can correctly advertize '1080P resolution'
and can be referring to a display of , say, 1280x720 resolution. If those 720 scanlines are
upconverted and reformated to a 1080P display format, then it can be correctly advertized as a '1080P Television'. The consumer would then think that he is
buying a full res 1920x1080 TV when in fact he is getting a low res
1280x720 TV.I expected this would happen. I won't dwell on this as I don't want to hijack the thread but you are completely wrong. And I can't blame you because this is such an ingrained misnomer that it's tough to realize.

However, there is no arguing the correct technical terms:

Definition: refers to the number of pixels only
- 1920 x 1080 = 2073600 pixels (hence "full definition")
- 1365 x 768 = 1048320 pixels (hence "high definition")
etc.....

Resolution: refers to the number of pixels per unit of measure

1920 x 1080 50" screen has a resolution of 44 pixels per inch

1920 x 1080 60" screen has a lower resolution of 37 pixels per inch


If you do not agree please PM me as we shouldn't take over the thread with this

Cheers

DirecTV advertises 1440x1080 as 1080i. :)
Waaa? LOL, that's hilarious.

For what it's worth, I have the Pioneer 5080HD and use the PS3 as a blue-ray player. When I turn Pure Cinema Advance on, there is zero judder with PS3 blue-ray movies. I use standard for HD and SD TV and there is zero judder. If someone is worried about judder and is in the market for a 50" plasma, get the 5080HD or a TV with a similar option to force 72Hz and/or accept a 24fps signal.

Nuance, I too have been waiting to get this set (5080). Tell me, will it automatically know that I have an HD DVD or BD player 1080P/24fps ( eg on HDMI #1 input), and can one set it up to use "Pure Cinema Advance" mode on this HDMI 1 input automatically? & if I use HD SAT with Component or HDMI (eg on HDMI #2 input or componet #1 inputs) can it also use "Pure Cinema Advance" mode on this input automatically?
In other words, will the TV keep the settings for "Pure Cinema Advance" or any other assigned mode you use, to witch ever input you assign to it!

Thanks

Paul

Nuance, I too have been waiting to get this set (5080). Tell me, will it automatically know that I have an HD DVD or BD player 1080P/24fps ( eg on HDMI #1 input), and can one set it up to use "Pure Cinema Advance" mode on this HDMI 1 input automatically? & if I use HD SAT with Component or HDMI (eg on HDMI #2 input or componet #1 inputs) can it also use "Pure Cinema Advance" mode on this input automatically?
In other words, will the TV keep the settings for "Pure Cinema Advance" or any other assigned mode you use, to witch ever input you assign to it!

Thanks

Paul

Each input has seperate settings.

Waaa? LOL, that's hilarious.

Someone even filed a class action lawsuit over it.

http://www.cedailynews.com/2006/11/directv_hdlite_.html

Edit: In my earlier post I said it was 1440x1080, it's actually 1280x1080.

Nuance, I too have been waiting to get this set (5080). Tell me, will it automatically know that I have an HD DVD or BD player 1080P/24fps ( eg on HDMI #1 input), and can one set it up to use "Pure Cinema Advance" mode on this HDMI 1 input automatically? & if I use HD SAT with Component or HDMI (eg on HDMI #2 input or componet #1 inputs) can it also use "Pure Cinema Advance" mode on this input automatically?
In other words, will the TV keep the settings for "Pure Cinema Advance" or any other assigned mode you use, to witch ever input you assign to it!

Thanks

Paul
The TV is fully adjustable for each input, so if you tell it to use Pure Cinema Advance for HDMI 4 just once, the setting will hold until you manually change it; all the settings will hold (color, brightness, contrast, etc). You could use the PS3 on HDMI 4 and have it save all the settings, and you could use the 360 on HDMI 5 and tell it to use smooth instead of advance, and it will remember the settings. It's pretty cool. However, it's not going to automatically detect if the source is 24fps and turn advance on and off on it's own.

Hope that helps.
Someone even filed a class action lawsuit over it.

http://www.cedailynews.com/2006/11/directv_hdlite_.html

Edit: In my earlier post I said it was 1440x1080, it's actually 1280x1080.
Oh man, that's just so funny! What a bunch of morons!

Thanks for the link, it was quite entertaining! :D

Nuance,

Sounds like a great TV congrats :) I am truly jealous.

If I may ask what happens if you force 3:3 and the source is not 24?

I expected this would happen. I won't dwell on this as I don't want to hijack the thread but you are completely wrong. And I can't blame you because this is such an ingrained misnomer that it's tough to realize.

However, there is no arguing the correct technical terms:

Definition: refers to the number of pixels only
- 1920 x 1080 = 2073600 pixels (hence "full definition")
- 1365 x 768 = 1048320 pixels (hence "high definition")
etc.....

Resolution: refers to the number of pixels per unit of measure

1920 x 1080 50" screen has a resolution of 44 pixels per inch

1920 x 1080 60" screen has a lower resolution of 37 pixels per inch


If you do not agree please PM me as we shouldn't take over the thread with this

Cheers

Ok, I see what you are saying.
I think this is one of those deals
where the term 'resolution' is ambiguous and therefore has
no singular, universally accepted definition. So unless the usage is
flatout wrong , for example, calling a display format of 1080P 'resolution',
I'd say that one could call 1920x1080 'resolution' or 'pixel count'.

What you are calling 'resolution' is what I call 'pixel density', that is pixels per unit
area. Only you use a linear divisor (length) and I use a 2 dimensional divisor
(area), same principle.

Ok, I see what you are saying.
I think this is one of those deals
where the term 'resolution' is ambiguous and therefore has
no singular, universally accepted definition. So unless the usage is
flatout wrong , for example, calling a display format of 1080P 'resolution',
I'd say that one could call 1920x1080 'resolution' or 'pixel count'.

What you are calling 'resolution' is what I call 'pixel density', that is pixels per unit
area. Only you use a linear divisor (length) and I use a 2 dimensional divisor
(area), same principle.

Just for fun:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/resolution
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/resolving%20power
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_resolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_resolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_resolution

To be fair to the thread starter, I hope we can get back on topic.

Inverse Telecine is deinterlacing for film, last year about 80% failed to properly do this.

Is there a list somewhere of sets that actually do it correctly?

Now assuming a set accepts 1080p24, displays at 72 Hz, does 3:3 pulldown, etc, are all the BD/HD-DVD players correctly deinterlacing for film?

Is there a list somewhere of sets that actually do it correctly?

Now assuming a set accepts 1080p24, displays at 72 Hz, does 3:3 pulldown, etc, are all the BD/HD-DVD players correctly deinterlacing for film?


This list last years TVs I have not seen one for this year.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/1106hook/

BD/HD-DVD plays should not have to deinterlace the image for 1080p24 as that is how it is stored on the disk.

This list last years TVs I have not seen one for this year.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/1106hook/

BD/HD-DVD plays should not have to deinterlace the image for 1080p24 as that is how it is stored on the disk.

Thank you.

I'm guessing the sets that fail the "3:2 Test" do so as to avoid "judder" if the sets can't display at 72 Hz?

Thank you.

I'm guessing the sets that fail the "3:2 Test" do so as to avoid "judder" if the sets can't display at 72 Hz?

no, they fail because they fail :)

they are not properly detecting film based source and displaying as video

Well you are both right.

If you deinterlace film as video you loss some resolution but if you deinterlace video as film it jidders bad no matter what the refresh rate.

Most VPs even nice ones error on the side of caution or just don't bother with film at all.

OK...I might be confused again, so correct me if I'm wrong.

If a set is passing the "Deinterlace" test in that article, but fails the "3:2 Film Cadence" test, the set is simply combining the odd and even frames with minimal processing so that 2 of the 5 resulting frames may be a combination of fields from different frames. In other words, the TV is incorrectly performing a "reverse 3:2 pulldown".

Hmm...I wonder what the implications of this are when one feeds one of these TVs a DVD upconverted to 1080i by the player? Seems to me that if your DVD player correctly performs the "Deinterlace" and "3:2 Film Cadence" tests when sending the TV 480p, this would negate any advantages to an 1080i upconversion process in the player. And, if the TV accepts 1080p, I'm guessing the upconverting player that outputs 1080p would show minimal advantage since it's just doing a rescale of the original 720x480 picture.

OK...I might be confused again, so correct me if I'm wrong.

If a set is passing the "Deinterlace" test in that article, but fails the "3:2 Film Cadence" test, the set is simply combining the odd and even frames with minimal processing so that 2 of the 5 resulting frames may be a combination of fields from different frames. In other words, the TV is incorrectly performing a "reverse 3:2 pulldown".

Hmm...I wonder what the implications of this are when one feeds one of these TVs a DVD upconverted to 1080i by the player? Seems to me that if your DVD player correctly performs the "Deinterlace" and "3:2 Film Cadence" tests when sending the TV 480p, this would negate any advantages to an 1080i upconversion process in the player. And, if the TV accepts 1080p, I'm guessing the upconverting player that outputs 1080p would show minimal advantage since it's just doing a rescale of the original 720x480 picture.

basically yes. As for 480p vs. 1080i, give it a spin. My tv is decent at scaling up to its native resolution so 480p would work fine for me. Some other tv might do better with the 1080i eventhough it fails 3:2 pulldown.

Nuance, I too have been waiting to get this set (5080). Tell me, will it automatically know that I have an HD DVD or BD player 1080P/24fps ( eg on HDMI #1 input), and can one set it up to use "Pure Cinema Advance" mode on this HDMI 1 input automatically? & if I use HD SAT with Component or HDMI (eg on HDMI #2 input or componet #1 inputs) can it also use "Pure Cinema Advance" mode on this input automatically?
In other words, will the TV keep the settings for "Pure Cinema Advance" or any other assigned mode you use, to witch ever input you assign to it!

Thanks

Paul

OK I thought I would just let you all know something about the pioneer. When Jeff calibrated my set and sent it a 1080p/24 signal, the tv detected it and did the 72hz automatically. Switching to advance just makes it a manual 72hz, but has some pretty degrading effects on the picture. When you manually set it to advance the light output drops, and the color changes. Jeff said the advance manual setting is broken, and I believe him as well. With pure cinema set to off, you still will get 72hz judder free image by sending the tv a true 1080p/24 signal.
We tested this with a 1080p/24 test image, and noticed the tv automatically switched to 72hz mode with no judder. Bottom line is you dont have to set it to advance if you are sending it a true 1080p/24 source.

Well you are both right.

If you deinterlace film as video you loss some resolution but if you deinterlace video as film it jidders bad no matter what the refresh rate.

Most VPs even nice ones error on the side of caution or just don't bother with film at all.

When you say deinterlace film as video, you mean taking the 1080i60 (that was originally 24fps) and turning it into 1080p30 (by combining alternating frames), right?

What do you mean by deinterlacing video to film?

And finally, to clarify the 3:2 Film Cadence Test. Is the objective of that test to take 1080i60 turn it into 1080p24? (Then depending on what your display can do, display it at a 3:2 rate or 3:3). If it fails, it is most likely ignoring the flag and taking the 1080i60 and turning it into 1080p30 (and displaying it at a 2:2 rate).

I love this subject, but this thread is making my head hurt. I have the Pro-1130HD that has the 3:3 mode. I leave it set to that and it is my understanding that the panel runs in 60hz mode unless a 24fps cadence is detected (whether true 24fps or from a telecined process). If 24fps is detected, it begins tripling the frame rate and performing any necessary de-interlacing.

All I know is that when I watch a DVD (output via HDMI at 480i) or an HD movie on a 1080i channel, I don't notice any judder except that which can never be eliminated (slow horizontal pans). I don't have BR yet, so I can't comment, but others with the same panel have stated that it accepts the pure 24fps signal from BR players that are capable of sending it right off the disc (which I guess the PS3 does now with a recent firmware upgrade??).

OK...I might be confused again, so correct me if I'm wrong.

If a set is passing the "Deinterlace" test in that article, but fails the "3:2 Film Cadence" test, the set is simply combining the odd and even frames with minimal processing so that 2 of the 5 resulting frames may be a combination of fields from different frames. In other words, the TV is incorrectly performing a "reverse 3:2 pulldown".



3:2 film cadence detection is part of deinterlacing for film where you can get the original 1080p24

If it fails this but passes the vidio deinterlace test that means it is doing some other type and that could include one or more of the following:

Weaving, Blending, Selective Blending, Motion Compensation, Half-Sizing, Line doubling.

With Motion Compensation (that really uses all the others together) being the "best" and line doubling being the worst, in the case of 1080i it scales each 540 field to your screens resalution also called "bob".

Like I said if you apply film deinterlace to vidio it will not be smooth at all as vidio was not shot at 24fps but rather 60 or higher.

Generally speaking you can not deinterlace vidio to a true 1080 image and some scaling will take place.

When you say deinterlace film as video, you mean taking the 1080i60 (that was originally 24fps) and turning it into 1080p30 (by combining alternating frames), right?

No it means it is applying some other deinterlaceing method other then inverse telecine so you end up with an image <1080
What do you mean by deinterlacing video to film?

Video was not recorded at 24 but 60 or higher if you force inverse telecine (3:2) the fields do not "line up" and the result is a very jumpy PQ
And finally, to clarify the 3:2 Film Cadence Test. Is the objective of that test to take 1080i60 turn it into 1080p24? (Then depending on what your display can do, display it at a 3:2 rate or 3:3). Yes

If it fails, it is most likely ignoring the flag and taking the 1080i60 and turning it into 1080p30 (and displaying it at a 2:2 rate). No it is applying some other deinterlacing method

TTT

If it fails, it is most likely ignoring the flag and taking the 1080i60 and turning it into 1080p30 (and displaying it at a 2:2 rate). No it is applying some other deinterlacing method

That's almost funny. I would think doing it the right way would be the simplest way. All the data is there and there would be no need to any other processing.

Maybe the right way is up for debate?

That's almost funny. I would think doing it the right way would be the simplest way. All the data is there and there would be no need to any other processing.

Maybe the right way is up for debate?

Well its not all that easy to detect the 3:2 cadence in real time (why some have force modes) and if applied to vidio the image would be very jiddery.

Like i said deinterlacing film as vidio looks ok, deinterlacing vidio to film does not.

3:2 film cadence detection is part of deinterlacing for film where you can get the original 1080p24

If it fails this but passes the vidio deinterlace test that means it is doing some other type and that could include one or more of the following:

Weaving, Blending, Selective Blending, Motion Compensation, Half-Sizing, Line doubling.

With Motion Compensation (that really uses all the others together) being the "best" and line doubling being the worst, in the case of 1080i it scales each 540 field to your screens resalution also called "bob".

Thanks...I believe I now see the distinction you're making.

However, I find it amusing that manufacturers of DVD players figured out how to properly recover the original film frames and display them progressively in a 3:2 cadence years ago, and yet many TVs of late fail to do it properly.

Thanks...I believe I now see the distinction you're making.

However, I find it amusing that manufacturers of DVD players figured out how to properly recover the original film frames and display them progressively in a 3:2 cadence years ago, and yet many TVs of late fail to do it properly.

That's true but it is a lot easier when you have the original source (the DVD) that you can sample and time delay then a stream that has to be done in real time.

That's true but it is a lot easier when you have the original source (the DVD) that you can sample and time delay then a stream that has to be done in real time.

Why does it have to do it in real time? As far as the viewer is concerned, what is actually displayed is for all intensive purposes "real time" even though it's a second or two delayed?

Why does it have to do it in real time? As far as the viewer is concerned, what is actually displayed is for all intensive purposes "real time" even though it's a second or two delayed?

audi sync is one issue if you are using a amp

audi sync is one issue if you are using a amp

Bingo! Never thought of that. You guys definitely know your stuff.

Thanks to all for the edumucation on this forum.