Now that the Wilson Maxx Cable thread is closed, we've gotta have some fun. Hence this thread.

Anyone read comic books? Current Marvel Comics recently concluded "Civil War".
Super Heroes fought Super Heroes, a fight over enforcing the Super Human Registration Act whereby the government would know the not so secret identity of each super powered human and the government would assign the super heroes in teams to "protect" each of the fifty states. The super heroes who wouldn't sign up are under arrest and imprisoned in a super duper prison in another dimension, except for those that fight and have yet to be caught.
But now, months later, surprise - Electra (remember her from the Daredevil movie) is killed and she turns into a dead alien shapeshifter Skrull. Now super folks are starting to realize that there's a lot more going on than they thought. They had non-human spies all among them in the guise of government officials, super powered folks, etc.

Make an analogy to the Cable Wars, etc. as this forum. Do we have "spies" among us? By "spies", I mean a person or person swho engages in these lively discussions from "afar" - who has never ever said what component(s) they own, posted reviews or questions about those component(s), but just pretty much always chimed in on other folks threads about products or cables. Is that person a "Skrull" among us? Does that person even own anything more than a little NTSC TV or Bose stereo? :D

The Wilson Maxx Cable thread was just closed. Read over that thread carefully.
Anyone participating in that thread meet the above criteria?

Its wartime. The Wilson Maxx Cable thread was closed. Do you ever wonder if one or more particpants in these lively threads are "shrills", folks who don't even own other than a little tiny TV but love to have fun on these threads contributing to or causing havok among us? HA!

Steve--putting the light hearted intent of your thread aside for a moment the deep seated purpose is nonetheless present.

IMO the time has come for AVS Forum to set some rules most specifically for the cable topic. All too predictably when a thread is started as that to which you allude wherein the OP was asking recommendations for cable for his MAXX ll speakers. Some 583 posts later the Usual cast of characters pulled up in front of their computers and had at it. The OP not only never got any meaningful answers to his question but faded from the thread completely with it having been hijacked by the same old people. Yesterday Dizzman's post rang loud and clear when he exclaimed that he doesn't even know what the two sides are arguing about and begged the mods to shut it down.

Lets see how long yours lasts

Perhaps we can expect (no demand) better from the mods and finally set some rules. Those that want to debate....let them start their own threads but those who ask questions such as that asked by the OP in the MAXX ll thread should be afforded the decency of hearing from those of us who like to offer up advice based on our own systems and experience. If I want experience on cooking or marketing psychology I will know who to ask but PLEASE if he has no opinion based on the original question then spare us the malaise of having to listen to diatribe.

Steve, i think there should never be a need to describe your personal system or really anything personal in order to post opinions.......and trying to label those that are less willing to disclose their situations is dangerous to an open forum. this forum is already percieved to potentially be elitist; that would truely confirm it.

OTOH if we want an enviromnent of respectfull exchange of ideas and helpful feedback to questions; we need to consider some rules.

maybe we don't care about having an environment where a cable performance question can be asked without starting a flame war.

or maybe we do.

my opinion is that the 'status quo' is just not very good......something needs to change.

my opinion is that the 'status quo' is just not very good......something needs to change.

I agree

i think there should never be a need to describe your personal system or really anything personal in order to post opinions.......and trying to label those that are less willing to disclose their situations is dangerous to an open forum.

I also agree. Having said that it is always IMO more meaningful to read posts whether they be positive or negative from someone who has some form of credentials, whether they be gear owned or science professed --IOW subjectivist vs objectivist. My question to Chu was to put out on the table something that gives credence, not necessarily his system. If this came across as being elitist then that was my mistake and I apologize.

Once upon a time, these discussions on cables, etc. took place in the Tweaks forum.
Tweaks was then a tight ship. Tweak threads were moderated to stay on topic; but separate threads were regularly posted so both sides, like in the cable wars, could give opinions. There are some great arshived threads in that forum.

If you think folks complain now, you should have seen the complaints then. If the Moderator here were to edit and delete folks out say of the Wilson Maxx cable thread for offering opinions when they aren't talking to the subject - what cables to get - you have no idea how many folks would be complaining direct to the forum owners and making all sorts of allegations generally untrue about the poor Moderator.

I know, I was that Moderator.

Mark Rubin is a really nice guy and a really good Moderator, within the rules/guidelines he is given by the AVS owners. Whatever he or AVS does will not sit over well with some. Nothing you can do can please everyone.

You would be amazed at the probably millions of folks worldwide who lurk and read these cable war, etc. threads for sheer entertainment. You cable warring guys are doing a real public service - like Saturday Night Live!!! With Mark Rubin the MC.

I agree

I also agree. Having said that it is always IMO more meaningful to read posts whether they be positive or negative from someone who has some form of credentials, whether they be gear owned or science professed --IOW subjectivist vs objectivist. My question to Chu was to put out on the table something that gives credence, not necessarily his system. If this came across as being elitist then that was my mistake and I apologize.

I like to give Chu some crap, I often disagree with him, yet I agree with him in many ways. Chu says tweaks, cables, power conditioners have false or at least misleading or unsubstantiated claims and advertising, and don't improve performance, and are BS and a waste of money.

I've done a lot too many of those things over the years. I've concluded that these items definitely often change the sound of the system some - but is it overall positive in the direction of real live/life? Often its not. Much power conditioning may filter out not only noise but some of the good sonics and dynamics/microdynamics that you really want. I've bought and sold so many "tweaks" that I'm too tired to mention them. Yea, they all change the sound some. And sometimes, too often, you might think that the change is positive, but then months or even years later, maybe with some system changes, you realize the tweak overall is a negative, not a positive. That's why us tweakers sell this stuff on Audiogon so much! Where I disagree with Chu, he never seems to admit that any tweaky items just might overall improve performance. For example, I love my current PS Audio Premier AC power regenerator - what's wrong with a clean 60 Hz sinewave? Mebbe Chu would spend him $$ elsewhere, but it doesn't take away from the validity of the product. On the other hand,networked cables are quite controversial and you have to wonder when company representatives have slipped that their girlfriend, late 20s, build them in their house. Oh well!!

I'll probably fit into the category. I don't presently have what I would call a decent stereo or HT sound system installed in my home. In fact I haven't turned on my projector in over 3 months. Most of my listening is done in the car. Even that crapped out a month ago, some intermittent short somewhere that's taking out the 30 amp fuse that I haven't had time to look at. Every weekend where I have a free hour it's been raining, so I have earbuds and an MP3 player in the car right now. My time in the workshop is spent listening to talk radio through a 10 WPC Aiwa mini stereo with $49/pr Taiwanese no name brand speakers.

But who cares? I've spent 100's if not 1000's of hours over the last 30 years of my life listening to many stereos and 5.1 systems. I worked with who I consider to be one or two of Canada's best speaker reconers/builders who know the ins and outs of speakers and the design thereof, and owning one of Vancouver's largest audio repair shops from 1991 to 1994, I've repaired and auditioned lots of source equipment, amps and speakers, etc. I've installed pro sound systems for 22 years now.

I think I have a pretty critical ear when it comes to auditioning systems, and can pinpoint audible deficiences when others think a system sounds fine.

As stated in another thread here, I think ANY discussion in any of these forums is good. Since no one here seems to be able to agree how to do a comparison test between cables let alone other equipment, you'll never be able to have a shootout to determine what the 'best' equipment is.

My beef is that some people here come across as elitists. Perhaps not intentionally so all the time, but there's as much snobbery around here coming from the people that 'believe' as is coming from the people that 'don't'. Despite my poking fun at the believers, I'm not really out to convince anyone that things like esoteric cables aren't required. Heck, the cable suppliers need to eat too.

However.. if someone comes onto this forum asking an opinion about something like cables, I'll darn well state my opinion. That will inevitably tick off someone that 'believes' and the flame war starts.

I'll never drive a car worth more than $35K, I'll never buy a pair of Wilsons and will most likely continue to drink coffee at fast food places. That doesn't make my opinion worth any less than those that own two Rolls. Lucky for you as well, there's a 2 for 1 sale on my opinion for the rest of the day..:D

Let me add since Steve posted twice since I was writing... :p

I'm very much a meat and potatoes guy. As an analogy, I HATED creative writing in high school. Did miserably in it. I would write: The sky is blue' Others would write:'The sun shone brightly on the slowly ripening apples in the fruit orchard, the scant cirrus clouds contrasted strongly against the azure atmosphere.'.

Umm hello? The sky is still effing blue! :D

Once I was in college, I found that I was a pretty good technical writer. I state things, come straight to the point when I email and write documents that are easy for the layman to understand. I think I accomplish the same thing when I install audio systems. They sound good, they are basic, reliable and come without the frilly accessories that add big $$ to the cost of the system.

I'll probably fit into the category. I don't presently have what I would call a decent stereo or HT sound system installed in my home. In fact I haven't turned on my projector in over 3 months. Most of my listening is done in the car. Even that crapped out a month ago, some intermittent short somewhere taht's taking out the 30 amp fuse that I haven't had time to look at. Every weekend where I have a free hour it's been raining, so I have earbuds and an MP3 player in the car right now. My time in the workshop is spent listening to talk radio through a 10 WPC Aiwa mini stereo with $49/pr Taiwanese no name brand speakers.

But who cares? I've spent 100's if not 1000's of hours over the last 30 years of my life listening to many stereos and 5.1 systems. I worked with who I consider to be one or two of Canada's best speaker reconers/builders who know the ins and outs of speakers and the design thereof, and owning one of Vancouver's largest audio repair shops from 1991 to 1994, I've repaired and auditioned lots of source equipment, amps and speakers, etc. I've installed pro sound systems for 22 years now.

I think I have a pretty critical ear when it comes to auditioning systems, and can pinpoint audible deficiences when others think a system sounds fine.

As stated in another thread here, I think ANY discussion in any of these forums are good. Since no one here seems to be able to agree how to do a comparison test between cables let alone other equipment, you'll never be able to have a shootout to determine what the 'best' equipment is.

My beef is that some people here come across as elitists. Perhaps not intentionally so all the time, but there's as much snobbery around here coming from the people that 'believe' as is coming from the people that 'don't'. Despite my poking fun at the believers, I'm not really out to convince anyone that things like esoteric cables aren't required. HEck, the cable suppliers need to eat too.

However.. if someone comes onto this forum asking an opinion about something like cables, I'll darn well state my opinion. That will inevitably tick off someone that 'believes' and the flame war starts.

I'll never drive a car worth more than $35K, I'll never buy a pair of Wilsons and will most likely continue to drink coffee at fast food places. That doesn't make my opinion worth any less than those that own two Rolls. Lucky for you as well, there's a 2 for 1 sale on my opinion for the rest of the day..:D

Curt, my brain/head is as thick as my 8 guage speaker cables. I can handle it. Please feel free to continue!!@@@

But wouldn't it be nice if the Skrulls among us didn't just intervene and jump into cable threads, and actually post about components with questions and information?

Curt does this. He is not a Skrull. Although sometimes he's kinda dull.

But who cares? I've spent 100's if not 1000's of hours over the last 30 years of my life listening to many stereos and 5.1 systems. I worked with who I consider to be one or two of Canada's best speaker reconers/builders who know the ins and outs of speakers and the design thereof, and owning one of Vancouver's largest audio repair shops from 1991 to 1994, I've repaired and auditioned lots of source equipment, amps and speakers, etc. I've installed pro sound systems for 22 years now.


And this is what gives you credibility which is what I respect

My question to Chu was to put out on the table something that gives credence, not necessarily his system. If this came across as being elitist then that was my mistake and I apologize.

i KNOW that you are legitimately looking for some credibility regarding Chu's cable experience contexts. does he have an enviroment to be able to credibly comment on cable performance at high levels of performance? and personally i don't see that as elitist. Chu sometimes comes off as 'all-knowing' and asks for that type of question.

BTW, i was actually addressing the 'other' Steve.

my point is more general; it simply seems to me that it is wrong to label anyone as not worthy (or not credible) to post due to either lack of disclosure or level of gear owned. investment and knowledge are totally independant.

if time and time again someone foists strong opinions then they invite inquiry. personally i am an open book......for better or worse. i don't expect anyone to do it my way or care if they do.

There are some great arshived threads in that forum.

.

Hey, I resent that. Never once have I stuck a knife in your back... :p :D

As someone brought up Chu in this thread,all I know about Chu is his statement that he's a psychologist of some sort - I think corporate. I think he's said its his real name. And that he lives in New York.

http://www.op.nysed.gov/opsearches.htm

Click on the above and enter his name. You find no one near his name as a Psychologist or Psychotherapist.

We don't even know if he has ever owned a stereo system from his posts.

Should he be allowed to post? Of course.

Should folks be aware of any information which might help them assess the credibility of his opinions? Why not?

Is he a Skrull? I was being light-hearted, that's going to far. Chu may once have been a die hard tweaker, learned what he considers his "lesson", and is now on a crusade. Who knows? Mebbe he doesn't want to admit that he once cruised the web as a die hard tweaker under another guise, so he wants to be as anonymous as possible, and that even discussing stuff with his system might give himself away?

Is he any worse than us surround processor wars participants? Probably better. HA!

I AM NOT getting back at Chu for calling me an "ambulance chaser" (I practice law as an injury attorney - but I don't run after ambulances) the other day here on the forum. It wasn't the first time. I AM NOT! I AM NOT! I AM NOT! I AM NOT! I AM NOT! I AM NOT! I AM NOT! I AM NOT!

It feels good, though, and its fun. HA!

The tight moderation some folks want would not allow me to I AM NOT, either.
So let whoever the Skrulls are stay put here at AVS.

so let whoever the Skrulls are stay put here at AVS.


so be it

you guys don't really want 'tight moderation': if you want that, spend some time in the format battle forums: they call that a war: not sure it applies here to a discussion on high end cables

some very basic rules are all we need on AVS

-challenge the post; never the poster
-if you see a problematic post: report it to the mods; please do not respond to it or quote it

and always take the high road in every post


AVS is a public forum and we all have a right to post, as long as you abide by AVS rules

Mark---if we could all (myself included) take your advice we would all be behaving as grown men

you guys don't really want 'tight moderation': if you want that, spend some time in the format battle forums: they call that a war: not sure it applies here to a discussion on high end cables

some very basic rules are all we need on AVS

-challenge the post; never the poster
-if you see a problematic post: report it to the mods; please do not respond to it or quote it

and always take the high road in every post


AVS is a public forum and we all have a right to post, as long as you abide by AVS rules

This is what we should do. But we don't. Shame on us!!!

unforunately, 'tight moderation' is exactly what cable threads need on this forum.

there is a basic disconnect between the two perspectives. please cite just one example where the two sides resolved the conflict......it has never happened.

it is not a matter of good guys verses bad guys. so being well behaved still results in a conflict. then when the heat rises to a boiling point; normally respectful posters cross the line in the name of their 'god'.

you can add 'cable performance opinions' to 'politics' and 'religion' as predictable cesspools of eternal conflict.

as i don't expect AVS to ever restrict input from cable-naysayers; i strongly urge us to ban cable threads on this forum. it appears that that will not happen.

so be it.

i have written enough; and will refrain from any further blathering.

love,

Mike

In line with Mark's astute and simple rules to keep in mind when posting dissagreements, I'd also like to make another point when we get into the matters of subjective preference vs. the science of the matter.

IMO, some of the worst audiophile folklore comes from people reaching for some odd need to explain exactly why they prefer one item over another. When I describe such folklore as "worst" I am speaking directly to those myths that perpetrate truly incorrect techincal explanations. It seems people are terribly afraid to say "We don't yet know for sure."

Hypothesizing is wonderful, but those well detatched from the common scrutiny of more studied fields are quick to state hypothesies as known fact instead of the mere suspicion they are. This is the point at which attacks begin.

My own simple suggestion to anyone experimenting with exotic componets and seemingly magical fixes is to stick to facts and observations. If you insert the component and believe you hear an improvement, investigate further. Remove or swap back the component 2-3 times and conciously listen for those details to see if they have reverted back, or if the act of change caused you to listen more intently. It is much easier to convince ourselves that adding something made the system better. You will be one step more certain if you can remove it and find that improvement gone repeatedly.

Now here's the important part. This does not mean you understand WHY it sounds better to you, just that it appears to repeatedly benefit your listening experience. ... and isn't that enough?

There can be a huge difference in stating "These lunar metal cables improved the sound of my system by allowing the electrons to flow more evenly through their low gravity metals." ;)

vs stating "Adding these lunar metal cables consistently improved the sound of my system. The MoonDog Cable Company(TM) claims the electrons flow more evenly through their low gravity metals. I'm not certain about that, but I like the way they sound!"

Of course what fun would cable discussions be if people remained civil. :rolleyes:

Steve, your original post/question is very similar to that which forum member panhead posted, which was something to the effect of why the cable thread trolls do what they do.

Your question may be viewed, logically, as one which precedes panhead's: who are the cable thread trolls? Only now, the term trolls is being replaced with the name Skrulls.

OB, sit back with another glass of wine because, like all the other threads of this ilk, this one also probably will descend into the abyss of condescension and markrubin will write the last post.

Part of the problem here is that this $20K+ forum is a mix of high-end video, high-end home theater audio, high-end multichannel music, and high-end two-channel music. There are far different attitudes prevalent in these different disciplines; approximately speaking that list is from most objectivist to least. Frankly there's going to be some friction here as a result. Slicing off the high-end two-channel topics into a different forum might reduce the cable battles, for example, but it won't get rid of the Lex vs. Theta battles.

I just don't think something "needs to change" though. This forum is what it is: a unique mix of objectivists and subjectivists who sometimes coexist peacefully but more often than not battle it out. But since the same characters are by and large still here, something is working. If you're a subjectivist who is really getting tired of your claims that cable X is better than cable Y being dismissed as placebo, well, there are quite a few other places on the Internet that are sufficiently insulated from that talk. And if you're an objectivist who can't take a bunch of subjectivists pouncing on you for offering your opinion about a piece of copper wire you haven't listened to before, well, there are plenty of alternatives for you, too.

So I vote a definite "no" on moderation. None of us needs chaperoning. If enough of us get tired of this forum and its content, the change will happen naturally, through attrition. But how long have we all been here again? I suspect this forum will be roughly the same in the coming years, with some new faces, but the same arguments, and even occasional threads like these arguing whether we need to change things :)

BTW, I thought (I could be wrong) that Chu was based in Hawaii and is a scientist of some sort?

What kind of stereo anyone has is of no relevance.

What if i was a PhD in Electrical engineering and you came on here and claimed that a cables from some company in the woods of kentucky or some other place broke or bent the laws of our physical universe.

I would feel compelled to speak up and ask for some kind of proof. ANY kind of proof that your claims had some sort of merit.

THis is a forum where people ask for advice and feedback. this takes both sides of the spectrum to satisfy that request.

While there are many that go on and on about nothing, or just say the same things, there are others who are just asking you to prove anything.

So that leads us to the fundamental issue at hand. Exotic cables are not about science. no way, no how. If there were, then we could point to something that illustrates their validity. Testing, peer reviewed white papers, listening tests with accepted controls in place. SOMETHING.

As they are not science and cannot be until some of the above conditions are met, then they are in the same category as enzyte and organized religion. No proof, just believe me, if you do not believe then do not have faith of a good enough stereo or ears.


So if we want to move forward in any of these cable debates, first show that multi K$$$$ cables are science. If not, please keep them in the same box as the easter bunny and the tooth fairy. If you like them and feel they work for you, go for it, but please do not try to justify them as the frontiers of science.


Sorry for the harsh position, but i am sick of this as well.

And steve, you are a grown up and read comics still? Is that where the word Skrull comes from?

The OP not only never got any meaningful answers to his question but faded from the thread completely with it having been hijacked by the same old people.

Quite to the contrary if you followed the thread. He had his suggestions and later on informed people that he had equipment problems and would not be able to conduct his evaluations. What the current status is, I don't know.

Having said that it is always IMO more meaningful to read posts whether they be positive or negative from someone who has some form of credentials, whether they be gear owned or science professed --IOW subjectivist vs objectivist. My question to Chu was to put out on the table something that gives credence, not necessarily his system. If this came across as being elitist then that was my mistake and I apologize.

Elitism aside, this may well be your opinion and preference but it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with matters of audibility. A salesman wants to know what you have, and perhaps readers too, because that's how they size you up. If the object is to enrich your experience by enriching their bottom line, one can crudely look at it as sizing up the 'mark'. Educationally, I have a degree in one of the hearing sciences...didn't take much to that, analytical chemistry and an advanced degree in marketing psychology. I too, in a sense, sell things or aid in their favorable presentation.

Yes, I have an interest in cooking. I've also been very interested in what some may call pseudo-science...scams...hoaxes...legends...wive's tales. I'm fascinated by magicians be it a Chris Angel, Penn & Teller, or whomever who It's pretty broad. I'm interested in how science is manipulated and distorted, often with the aid of political funding wrapped in the guise of free speech. I look at Houdini as one of the crusaders for honesty and integrity. I'm a pain in the ass at one of my local hospitals when they inform the public that a Reiki clinic will be given. My presence there is not especially welcome I think. I also have an interest in kaleidoscopes, developing bubble formulas to make long lasting, colorful bubbles, and trying to make a baseball bat gives the hitter more control.

AA has their rules because it is ultimately to their financial advantage to have those rules. It's part of their business plan. It's a matter of traffic. Hits. Advertising revenue. Same reason why pharmacies have homeopathic stuff. Why alienate a segment of a $20 Billion if not more spendingpopulation that buys into this? After all, once they're there, they may pick up other things too. It's a good site but oh so difficult to find good, solid information. It's a good site though to find people who agree with you and to a large extent, consumers enjoy being in the company of those who support their positions regardless of their lunacy.

OB, you're a physician. Not exactly a scientist in the sense that you don't perform peer-reviewed research (I think!), but a person whose got a good grip on the field. Likewise, you're aware there are other sciences and disciplines be they auditory sciences, neurological, psychological, economic and statistical, and the like. It frankly befuddles me why you haven't given serious contemplation to explanations culled from those disciplines that seek to explain why you hear differences. I grew up on a farm. Mostly vegetable but at one time there were animals. My father had a horsehoe nailed up on this building for good luck. Returning from college one year, for I worked there during the summers, I took the horsehoe down explaining this was just superstition. It remained down until the next time I returned when I saw that it was up. Asking my father about it he said something to the effect that it probably was BS, but he just felt better having it up. I dropped the matter. People, who've been doing something a certain way, believing in a certain thing, can become very uncomfortable when removed from the internal security that has been with them for a signficant portion of their life. Others, just outright reject it. Some, have an epiphany and are able to laugh at themselves, and move on.

The advertising laws in this country are very lenient. You can flash that momentary message, where's my TIVO button to see it, that's a disclaimer. "These claims have not been evaluated by the FDA. These claims are those of the companies and not of the station or its affiliates." Stuff like that. It buys you a lot of leniency. As the truth is stretched a bit, when there is no negative reaction, it'll continue to be stretched.

BTW, Stephen Straus passed away.
The first director of the National Center of Complementary and Alternative Medicine at NIH, Stephen E. Straus, 60, has died of brain cancer. He was directed to turn the quack-dominated Office of Alternative Medicine, created by Congress, into a genuinely scientific center. He did it the only way possible, subjecting one claimed cure after another to randomized double-blind tests, while enduring attacks from scientists who thought he moved too slowly. One after another, all the quack methods failed the tests, otherwise there would have been interference from Congress.

Did we really have to pervert free speech to such an extent that the quacks got their foot and then some in the door?

As far as cables go, when things sound different, there's often a very good reason that's grounded in science. Provided you want to dig a couple of holes. Thunder doesn't happen because Thor swings his mighty hammer, that only the Hulk, upon one occasion was able to budge, in Valhalla.

[mod hat off]

in my business, we do RF work over DC-40 GHz

the measure of a good cable can be demonstrated on a time domain reflectometer: the purpose of a cable is to help transmit a signal with the least amount of attenuation: a cable that 'colors' the signal, one way or another, would be rejected: a cable that has the proper nominal impedance/VSWR over the frequency range, and meets other applicable specs, would be selected

we don't choose a cable because it might add to 'warmth' or 'tighten the center channel' or anything like that...I think this should apply to a HT system as well

Perhaps we can expect (no demand) better from the mods and finally set some rules. Those that want to debate....let them start their own threads but those who ask questions such as that asked by the OP in the MAXX ll thread should be afforded the decency of hearing from those of us who like to offer up advice based on our own systems and experience. If I want experience on cooking or marketing psychology I will know who to ask but PLEASE if he has no opinion based on the original question then spare us the malaise of having to listen to diatribe.

If you want that kind of forum, there are a couple of alternative forums you can post on that will let you fantasize about whatever component you choose without having anyone come in and rudely disturb you from your trance. It is very simple, go to those other fora and post, or direct people posting here to that fora where you can convince them of whatever you like without anyone standing in your way with science. I like this place because it allows such open conversation and free flow of ideas instead of squelching contradictory points of view.

You already have plenty of fora that ban people for discussing DBT and cable issues. Go to one of those places if you are so unhappy with things here. This place is named Audio Video Science Forum, not Audio Asylum. Stop trying to make it like other places. If you don't like being in a place that makes you consider other points of view you don't agree with, you don't have to hang around. The minute this place starts banning discussion of these kinds of issues is the minute they should take the Science out of AVScience forum.

Stop trying to make every place you frequent only cater to your ideology. I know it probably makes you feel secure, but get over it. No one on these fora has been as unaccommodating as some of the so called subjectivists who seem to want a fascist hand ruling every board they post on (hardly open-minded IMO). If you don't like the arguments, don't participate in them. I guarantee they will stop when you stop feeding the fire with your own equally antagonistic points of view.

there is a basic disconnect between the two perspectives. please cite just one example where the two sides resolved the conflict......it has never happened.

Tighter moderation won't solve the problem. Making a conscious choice not to participate, if it bothers you, will. The two ideas are opposed to one another, so they won't ever be at peace as long as both sides believe their own side of the story.

To ask one side be squelched is a really bad idea. Then you only have one side of an issue being expressed. It is better to have people aware of the issues so when they go out and decide to directly experience cables, or whatever other component, that they know what possible determining factors might be involved in their experience.

BTW, my equipment is listed in my profile, and pictures of most of the equipment are listed in my HT thread.

Everything else aside, I can't wait for my Wilson Watt Puppy 8s to arrive on Monday! :D

You would be amazed at the probably millions of folks worldwide who lurk and read these cable war, etc. threads for sheer entertainment.
As one of the "millions" I want to thank you guys for hours of entertainment. (Personally, I'm in the skeptical category in regard to cable.)

I'm a classical music fan and spend more money on concert and opera tickets than on my AV equipment. Last Thursday's Chicago Symphony performance of the Verdi Requiem was simply stunning, especially with the full chorus and extra trumpets in the balcony... I'm content with a "reasonable facsimile" at home.

And steve, you are a grown up and read comics still? Is that where the word Skrull comes from?

Back in 1961 the first Skrull was born in one of the early Fantastic Four issues. That was way before Jessica Alba (who plays the Invisible Woman in the movies, but why'd anyone want her to disappear is a mystery to me).

:eek:

So I vote a definite "no" on moderation. None of us needs chaperoning. If enough of us get tired of this forum and its content, the change will happen naturally, through attrition. But how long have we all been here again? I suspect this forum will be roughly the same in the coming years, with some new faces, but the same arguments, and even occasional threads like these arguing whether we need to change things :)

You just like attacking me personally and don't want to be moderated. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!@@@ :eek:

Back in 1961 the first Skrull was born in one of the early Fantastic Four issues. That was way before Jessica Alba (who plays the Invisible Woman in the movies, but why'd anyone want her to disappear is a mystery to me).

:eek:

Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff. But I've never seen anything to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls MY destiny. (Han Solo)

As far as cables go, when things sound different, there's often a very good reason that's grounded in science. Provided you want to dig a couple of holes. Thunder doesn't happen because Thor swings his mighty hammer, that only the Hulk, upon one occasion was able to budge, in Valhalla.

HA! You read comic books. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

But you don't like Nordost Valhalla cables?

[mod hat off]

in my business, we do RF work over DC-40 GHz

the measure of a good cable can be demonstrated on a time domain reflectometer: the purpose of a cable is to help transmit a signal with the least amount of attenuation: a cable that 'colors' the signal, one way or another, would be rejected: a cable that has the proper nominal impedance/VSWR over the frequency range, and meets other applicable specs, would be selected

we don't choose a cable because it might add to 'warmth' or 'tighten the center channel' or anything like that...I think this should apply to a HT system as well

Mark, when you say RF work, please explain. Thanks.

Video cabling is speced at 75 ohms. My video cabling has been TDRed at 75 ohms.
There's lotsa of "audiophile" video cabling out there that doesn't test well on a TDR. how do I know? Some years ago, our Az AV Club had a meeting usiing TDRs and testing "audiophile" video cabling brought in by members. Most of the expensive cables performed poorly. Yet members thought their video looked better.

Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff. But I've never seen anything to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls MY destiny. (Han Solo)

And yes, there are crazy non-substantiated claims like that out in the audiophile cable world. Absolutely nuts. I HATE to admit it, but Chu is absolutely right about that. But not every high end or audiophile cable company makes such claims - but many do.

My video cabling has been TDRed at 75 ohms.
Personally, I think that's great. However - there's always a however - how do you know what the cables are plugged into are 75 ohms? On a side note, a while back one of Kimber's cables was tested and I think it measured something like 84 ohms, give or take.

Yes, I read comic books when I was younger. Even had first editions of some Marvel ones. Not in great shape but first editions nonetheless. My mother threw them in the dump when I went away to college. A favorite character of mine was Dr. Strange and I always thought that'd be a nice TV series. Better than Bewitched or Charmed :(

Yes, I read comic books when I was younger. Even had first editions of some Marvel ones. Not in great shape but first editions nonetheless. My mother threw them in the dump when I went away to college. A favorite character of mine was Dr. Strange and I always thought that'd be a nice TV series. Better than Bewitched or Charmed :(

Dr. Strange, great movie. Peter Sellers in a Stanley Kubrick film. There was a comic book? (J/K, I read a few Dr. Strange comics, not many though... There was a TV movie apparently as well)

You should see my Comic Book Collection in the attic, circa. the 1980s. I even have some first print, black and white, Eastman and Laird's TMNTs, as well as a large amount of earlier X-men (including "Days of Future Past"). Also some very early Conans.

My favorites are still the X-men "Days of Future Past" and "Dark Phoenix Saga."

I credit Marvel Comics with the success of Dr. 90210.

Personally, I think that's great. However - there's always a however - how do you know what the cables are plugged into are 75 ohms? On a side note, a while back one of Kimber's cables was tested and I think it measured something like 84 ohms, give or take.
(

Our club had a video engineer of more than thirty years who ran the demo, and we ourselves plugged our video cables into the TDR and saw the results. Quite objective and scientific.

No, no. How do you know your DVD player and projector, assuming that's what you're using are spot on 75? Spec, I believe is +/-5%.

Chu, we measured the video cables, not the projector or DVD players. You insert the cable end into an adapter which is hooked up to the TDR. Have you ever done this - it doesn't sound like it???

For the Granite Audio video cabling, the TDR trace was very, very close to 75 ohms all the way across. Its called top notch quality control. Generally, audiophile companies may or may not spec a 75 ohm cable. But if they do, and they don't buy from one of the several top mills, or its simply a small batch, there generally ain't the quality control there is like when Belden or Canare manufactures digital audio or video cabling.

Chu, there are no out of this world type claims made by Granite Audio re these video cables, only solid objective performance. Isn't that what you'd like from cable companies?

From Granite Audio's website:


MODEL #423 Component

MODEL #422 HDTV RGB-V/H

ULTRA-BRILLIANT VIDEO CABLES

3.01 GHz Bandwidth

These ultra-high-performance Micro-75 series cables have both 100% Bonded Foil and 96% Braid Shielding for the ultimate in crystal-clear performance, even in the longer lengths required in modern custom home theater systems.

The #423 and #425 meet SMPTE 292M Broadcast Digital Standards (SDI) and delivers 1.51Gb/s HDTV brilliant quality signals up to 215 feet, with Extended Bandwidth of 3.01GHz. The characteristic impedance is 75 ohms, +1.6 ohms, and this new AV cable is available with one-piece 75 ohm RCA, BNC, or F connectors with an impressive High Return Loss of >34dB @ 1.2GHz.

The #423 and #425 are engineered to deliver all the high-resolution picture and sound quality of your original DVD, D-VHS, HD Receiver, or CD source with full rich signal response and the blackest possible background.

OB, you're a physician. Not exactly a scientist in the sense that you don't perform peer-reviewed research (I think!), but a person whose got a good grip on the field. Likewise, you're aware there are other sciences and disciplines be they auditory sciences, neurological, psychological, economic and statistical, and the like. It frankly befuddles me why you haven't given serious contemplation to explanations culled from those disciplines that seek to explain why you hear differences

Actually ...quite the contrary as I have. Over the past several years here at AVS those that know me will indeed confirm that I have softened my stance on cables and now sit more in the middle of the fence rather than one side or the other. It has been frequent meetings of our BAAS which has gotten together wonderfully scientific minds such as Dizzman, Michael Grant, Morbius and Tzucc (to name but a few of the objectivists in our club) with such other subjectivists such as myself, grellberg, Jeffmac, Ron Party, Mike Lavigne (to name but a few). I have indeed listened to these great scholars at all of our meetings and have softened my stance. What bothers me is the brow beating that continues from the same people over and over and over. Now we have queuecumber preaching to me. To him I can say that I owned my first system before he was even born so he need not preach to the choir. Nonetheless I would be happy to advise him how to set up his WP 8's when they show up unless of course he is an expert here on this as well ;)

I know what you're talking about Steve, just commenting on wouldn't it be something if your DVD player was 71 ohms, the cables 75, and the projector 79! And I'm not bashing Granite in the least. I simply don't know if they use high precision terminating resistors inside the player and projector. I think? they'd still be in spec.

I think it would be wise to entertain your cousel on how to set them up OB. Are you familiar with Dunlavy's method of objectively setting up a pair of speakers to optimize soundstage/imaging?

I think it would be wise to entertain your cousel on how to set them up OB. Are you familiar with Dunlavy's method of objectively setting up a pair of speakers to optimize soundstage/imaging?

Indeed I am...and your point is?

"cousel"???

I know what you're talking about Steve, just commenting on wouldn't it be something if your DVD player was 71 ohms, the cables 75, and the projector 79! And I'm not bashing Granite in the least. I simply don't know if they use high precision terminating resistors inside the player and projector. I think? they'd still be in spec.

Darn it. Again you make a totally valid point.

My Dwin HD-700 CRT does have 75 ohn BNCs. But the internal cabling is some crappy who knows what cable, that some years ago Stacy Spears TDRed at only 50 ohms. Last year, Mike Parker (the CRT board modder/hot rodder) was in town and he retubed my Dwin AND soldered in the Granite Audio 75 ohm cabling internally - except where it actually connects to the main board, left that as is because it was just too hard to try to redo stuff there.

My Theta Compli - I use the SDI which is 75 ohm BNC. It also has BNCs for component but I don't use those.

Now we have queuecumber preaching to me. To him I can say that I owned my first system before he was even born so he need not preach to the choir. Nonetheless I would be happy to advise him how to set up his WP 8's when they show up unless of course he is an expert here on this as well ;)

I've never claimed to be an expert on anything in our discussions on this forum. I'd definitely appreciate any help you are willing to offer. I just like these fora here at AV Science Forum and get passionate when I hear talk of trying to change it to be like some of those other places where they stifle anything that disagrees with the popular viewpoint (or most likely the sponserships' viewpoints). Nothing personal, I'm just calling it like I see it. Even if you choose to keep aiming personal comments at me, I'll just keep ignoring them, like in the last thread that was recently closed.

This forum gave me a window into why I wasn't crazy for not hearing a difference with my $5000 dollar Nordost Frey cables vs. my $500 (and less) cables. Many other places won't allow that kind of discovery, for whatever insane reason they claim to do so.

To be fair, I do hear differences with other equipment I own, so far only processors and CD players though, unless you include less clipping when switching to amps with more power (as from my last Bryston to the Ayre MX-R monoblocks). Though, likely it may be processing differences such as HDCD filtering, room correction software that is making the biggest difference (e.g. my Meridian 861 DACs with room correction sound slightly more detailed at the cost of dimensionality and space between instruments compared to the Ayre C-5xe). I'm too lazy to experiment and try to get more official results, and at this point I'm not changing anything in my system but speakers for a long time to come.

Nothing personal queue. I suppose I could just as easily make similar comments about your posts regarding myself but in all honesty they don't bother me just as mine should not bother you

If they were to enforce those kinds of rules on the posting here, I wouldn't see the point of posting here anymore. I left other fora because of those kind of stringent policies putting a choke hold on free thought. So I apologize if I got too personal in my initial post OB, and I apologize if I offended any one else as well.

To me this is one of the only places where you can express yourself freely on the topic of audio and not expect serious repercussions for doing so. I've seen that spirit of communication sometimes lead to deeply stimulating and intellectual arguments, and I've also seen it lead some arguments into endless circles. By starting to enforce crazy rules on how you can discuss certain things (aside from obsenity and obvious indecency), you severly limit that kind of creativity IMO. As an advocate of free speech in general, outside these fora, censorship gets me fired-up any time I see it suggested as a solution to any problem, as the only purpose it has ever served is conquest through ignorance.

Indeed I am...and your point is?
Just asking is all. Not many were aware that he presented it in a patent (not that he sought to enforce it). Perhaps one day you'll share your impressions of it.

"cousel"???
Do you correct your patients when they write a check?

Are you familiar with Dunlavy's method of objectively setting up a pair of speakers to optimize soundstage/imaging?

Chu, can you post a link to this method, please?

Do you correct your patients when they write a check?

actually yes...I always want to be certain that the correct number of "zeros" precede the decimal point ;)

Chu, can you post a link to this method, please?

here you go

http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US5778087&F=0&QPN=US5778087#

Click on Save Full Document. It'll ask you to type what's in the box that's displayed.

Steve, please stop talking. you are digging a deeper hole than you realize.

In short, the cable and the connector is half the equation... possibly less. The electronics are the big part. You have seen some demos and know some of the words, but your understanding is weak. and i do not mean this as an insult. This is an epidemic problem around here.

And i do not have the time at the moment to go through it. (packing and going to bed for an early drive tomorrow)

Lots of manufacturers like to give half the story and impress people. As an Example

From Granite Audio's website:


MODEL #423 Component

MODEL #422 HDTV RGB-V/H

ULTRA-BRILLIANT VIDEO CABLES

3.01 GHz Bandwidth

These ultra-high-performance Micro-75 series cables have both 100% Bonded Foil and 96% Braid Shielding for the ultimate in crystal-clear performance, even in the longer lengths required in modern custom home theater systems.

The #423 and #425 meet SMPTE 292M Broadcast Digital Standards (SDI) and delivers 1.51Gb/s HDTV brilliant quality signals up to 215 feet, with Extended Bandwidth of 3.01GHz. The characteristic impedance is 75 ohms, +1.6 ohms, and this new AV cable is available with one-piece 75 ohm RCA, BNC, or F connectors with an impressive High Return Loss of >34dB @ 1.2GHz.

The #423 and #425 are engineered to deliver all the high-resolution picture and sound quality of your original DVD, D-VHS, HD Receiver, or CD source with full rich signal response and the blackest possible background.

There is some science there, but giving a bandwidth number for cable is useless. without the attenuation at that frequency over whatever length of cable, the numbers mean nothing. it is like saying a coat hanger has 1 gig of bandwidth. (maybe over 1/4" with 50 dB of loss)



Lets have something real around here, lets have a thread about cable and what ALL the numbers mean and how they affect a signal.

Lets have something real around here, lets have a thread about cable and what ALL the numbers mean and how they affect a signal.

Great idea. How about you doing this for us? Thanks.

Part of the problem here is that this $20K+ forum is a mix of high-end video, high-end home theater audio, high-end multichannel music, and high-end two-channel music. There are far different attitudes prevalent in these different disciplines; approximately speaking that list is from most objectivist to least. Frankly there's going to be some friction here as a result. Slicing off the high-end two-channel topics into a different forum might reduce the cable battles, for example, but it won't get rid of the Lex vs. Theta battles.

I just don't think something "needs to change" though. This forum is what it is: a unique mix of objectivists and subjectivists who sometimes coexist peacefully but more often than not battle it out. But since the same characters are by and large still here, something is working. If you're a subjectivist who is really getting tired of your claims that cable X is better than cable Y being dismissed as placebo, well, there are quite a few other places on the Internet that are sufficiently insulated from that talk. And if you're an objectivist who can't take a bunch of subjectivists pouncing on you for offering your opinion about a piece of copper wire you haven't listened to before, well, there are plenty of alternatives for you, too.

So I vote a definite "no" on moderation. None of us needs chaperoning. If enough of us get tired of this forum and its content, the change will happen naturally, through attrition. But how long have we all been here again? I suspect this forum will be roughly the same in the coming years, with some new faces, but the same arguments, and even occasional threads like these arguing whether we need to change things :)

Hi

That says it all..

I lurk here from time to time for a good belly laugh.

Please keep it up. You guys are like the Hells Angels of the AVS world. You all need a talk show next!

Peter

I'll probably fit into the category. I don't presently have what I would call a decent stereo or HT sound system installed in my home. In fact I haven't turned on my projector in over 3 months. Most of my listening is done in the car. Even that crapped out a month ago, some intermittent short somewhere that's taking out the 30 amp fuse that I haven't had time to look at. Every weekend where I have a free hour it's been raining, so I have earbuds and an MP3 player in the car right now. My time in the workshop is spent listening to talk radio through a 10 WPC Aiwa mini stereo with $49/pr Taiwanese no name brand speakers.

But who cares? I've spent 100's if not 1000's of hours over the last 30 years of my life listening to many stereos and 5.1 systems. I worked with who I consider to be one or two of Canada's best speaker reconers/builders who know the ins and outs of speakers and the design thereof, and owning one of Vancouver's largest audio repair shops from 1991 to 1994, I've repaired and auditioned lots of source equipment, amps and speakers, etc. I've installed pro sound systems for 22 years now.

I think I have a pretty critical ear when it comes to auditioning systems, and can pinpoint audible deficiences when others think a system sounds fine.


I kept switching between my two transports every 15 minutes and eventually I coudn't hear a difference between them anymore, the same thing happened the next day, I didn't hear a difference so I immediately became a skeptic and said it was all placebo and I was delusional. Then I listened only to my secondary transport for two days and then went back to my main transport, I heard a night and day difference!!
The brain needs many hours to adjust to a certain type of sound, the smaller the differences are, the longer time you need. If you are listening in another environment, it will take even longer.


Transport #1: 1m Valhalla - Ultimate Outlet - 50cm Valhalla - P300 Power Plant - 2m Valhalla - Cary 303/300 192kHz (Valhalla AES/EBU)
Transport #2: 10+m stock extension strips - computer 44.1kHz (Toslink)

ValhallaPC is THE SKRULL. He pretends to be a tweaker. He is actually the most die hard hater of any cables other than zip cord or power cords other than stock. Like in the comic books, the Skrulls shapeshift into anyone and can pretend to be anyone. Just like ValhallaPC!!!@@@

ValhallaPC is THE SKRULL. He pretends to be a tweaker. He is actually the most die hard hater of any cables other than zip cord or power cords other than stock. Like in the comic books, the Skrulls shapeshift into anyone and can pretend to be anyone. Just like ValhallaPC!!!@@@
Yes, for my whole life I have used the cheapest cables I could find. I didn't see the point of spending even $1 more for a "better" cable because the cheap cable worked just fine. I have a box full of stock cables of the cheapest kind.

I tried a Nordost Valhalla interconnect 2 and half years ago, I heard the truth, and spent my life savings on more Valhalla cables. If stock cables give good sound I will use them and throw away the more expensive cables. I have tried, but the truth keeps coming back to me every time. Like in my post above, I tried to ignore the truth by listening to crappy stock cables, then I tried Valhalla again hoping I wouldn't hear a difference, but I did.

I lurk here from time to time for a good belly laugh.

Please keep it up. You guys are like the Hells Angels of the AVS world. You all need a talk show next!

Peter
Yeah, I'm in full agreement with you there :D

I think Chu should be the host. He's my hero. :D ;)

Actually, I had it wrong. I just figured it out. We don't have a SKRULL infiltrator on the forum. We have a multiple personality persona on the forum who doesn't even know that he/she posts using different personas, with each persona knowing the other personas only from posts on the forum.

This forum is now being monitored by the greatest psychological minds in the world to figure out this puzzle.

That's why Chu's here. He's secretly trying to figure this all out. :p

He's secretly trying to figure this all out.

I would suggest "overtly" rather than secretly. ;)

I would suggest "overtly" rather than secretly. ;)

What's the difference? "Secretly" is sitting at his PC. "Overtly" is walking around in his bathrobe with sunglasses with his notebook PC in his hands? Sounds like something ValhallaPC would do. HA!

Look at the post that a newbie posted at the forum operations center, talk about psychological:


Counseling needed for Forum Addicts ???

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please keep in mind I'm a new member here with only a couple posts, not a newborn unable to process information.

I have formed a few opinions, generally, about Forum Member here and at other Forum sites and I'll try to do this in bullet points for easy reading. As I have learned, very quickly, to preface everything with IMO (In my opinion). So, In my opinion:

* Many Forum Members convey a sense of elevated stature, based upon the number of posts they have made, over their fellow Forum members and perceive themselves as experts and all others novices.

* Many of the posts by these self-elevated Forum members (legends in their own minds) are so venomous and down right nasty, personally attacking another 'less elevated' Forum member for his lack of subject insight, knowledge, or experience, from those who have No decision making influence of policy, market, or product, only an opinion 'as the rest of us would like to share, withour criticism or censure.

* Reading their posts, you'd swear they are the Chairman on a Board of Directors of one of these major corporations, or a CEO, COO. The reality is that they are just a voice crying out in the wilderness, having no more impact or influence on an issue as a pebble would have, simply a ripple in the ocean.

* Most their posts are emotional, not logical, and very little is based upon 'Facts'. They simply like talking to the wall or here on a Forum who listens to the nonsense of this kind of person and finds 'entertainment' responding back. Again, having NO impact on policy or decisions.

I could continue for several more bullet points, but I think I have made my point, and it is this:

* "Your addicted to Chat Forums and need Counseling. You need to get a life 'outside this Forum', read the real news as it unfolds, comment from the intellect, not the emotion, and learn and apply common courtesy and respect to others, who are not quite as elevated as you percieve yourself. Then all will be well

Jim Pullan
Ocala, FL

Look at the post that a newbie posted at the forum operations center, talk about psychological:


simply marvelous

now he's a man with great insight.

we need more voices such as his

What's the difference? "Secretly" is sitting at his PC. "Overtly" is walking around in his bathrobe with sunglasses with his notebook PC in his hands? Sounds like something ValhallaPC would do. HA!

Only, I imagine ValhallaPC would be doing it with ducky slippers on his feet and ERS paper on his head. :D

Jim Pullan, who works for Audio Excellence and also appears to do fashion photography (http://***********.com/member.php?id=66374), seems to feel this is the case everywhere.

http://forum.hd-dvd.com/showthread.php?p=3557 (scroll up)

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=2056

I look forward to reading Jim's ripples.

Jim Pullan, who works for Audio Excellence and also appears to do fashion photography (http://***********.com/member.php?id=66374), seems to feel this is the case everywhere.

http://forum.hd-dvd.com/showthread.php?p=3557 (scroll up)

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=2056

I look forward to reading Jim's ripples.

Reminds me of a saying I just made up... "Don't pee in the pond if you are going to swim in it." :p

Though it occurs to me now that... "Unless of course it is very cold and needs to be warmed up a little." :o

I'm so tempted to send him a PM saying, "g0 64ck to 4ppl3, y0u n3w6... pc r0x0rz," Just to see his reaction. Sort of that "poke it with a stick and see what it does" type of inclination.

http://www.myspace.com/jimpullan

Whose addicted???

Even ValhallaPC no longer has an active my space site:

http://www.myspace.com/valhallapc

When you click on ValhallaPC's my space site, you get:

"Invalid Friend ID. This user has either cancelled their membership, or their account has been deleted. "

I guess he's been so busy here no time for My Space. HA!!!

Nice model pics.

Chu

I was wondering if you were the guy in the silk pink panties and if you have PPPP?

No, but I didn't realize that piqued your curiousity!

Jim Pullan, who works for Audio Excellence and also appears to do fashion photography (http://***********.com/member.php?id=66374), seems to feel this is the case everywhere.

http://forum.hd-dvd.com/showthread.php?p=3557 (scroll up)

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=2056

I look forward to reading Jim's ripples.

Chu, which Audio Excellence. There's several I found on the web. Do you have the weblink?

Note that the fashion photography link above doesn't work.

But I found Jim's sheer basic bikini for men. HA!

http://www.jg2.com/product_reviews_info.php?products_id=81&reviews_id=14

Leave the grown man and his panties alone....

So this is what is comes down to in the end? He went from selling expensive audio tweaks (cables, power cords, etc) to wearing women's panties? Anyone else see a pattern?

No, but I didn't realize that piqued your curiousity!

actually it didn't

seemed to dispel the rumors about Asian prowess however ;)

You should try the powdered Rhino horn. :D

My solution:

Give the OP the ability to delete any thread in their post without anyone elses permission.

I have no problem with "this is MY thread and I will decide what goes on here" .

- Andy

My solution:

Give the OP the ability to delete any thread in their post without anyone elses permission.

I have no problem with "this is MY thread and I will decide what goes on here" .

- Andy

That works for me... But if you ever erase one of my posts you better believe I'll never let you post in one of my threads again.

That works for me... But if you ever erase one of my posts you better believe I'll never let you post in one of my threads again.And eventually there will be no replies in any thread.

good post.

i agree....i think i can differentiate billions of colors, even though I know the human eye cant....i suppose it is similar to the guys who can hear a difference in digital audio cables. Not being sarcastic.


Part of the problem here is that this $20K+ forum is a mix of high-end video, high-end home theater audio, high-end multichannel music, and high-end two-channel music. There are far different attitudes prevalent in these different disciplines; approximately speaking that list is from most objectivist to least. Frankly there's going to be some friction here as a result. Slicing off the high-end two-channel topics into a different forum might reduce the cable battles, for example, but it won't get rid of the Lex vs. Theta battles.

I just don't think something "needs to change" though. This forum is what it is: a unique mix of objectivists and subjectivists who sometimes coexist peacefully but more often than not battle it out. But since the same characters are by and large still here, something is working. If you're a subjectivist who is really getting tired of your claims that cable X is better than cable Y being dismissed as placebo, well, there are quite a few other places on the Internet that are sufficiently insulated from that talk. And if you're an objectivist who can't take a bunch of subjectivists pouncing on you for offering your opinion about a piece of copper wire you haven't listened to before, well, there are plenty of alternatives for you, too.

So I vote a definite "no" on moderation. None of us needs chaperoning. If enough of us get tired of this forum and its content, the change will happen naturally, through attrition. But how long have we all been here again? I suspect this forum will be roughly the same in the coming years, with some new faces, but the same arguments, and even occasional threads like these arguing whether we need to change things :)

And eventually there will be no replies in any thread.

The more I think about it, the better it sounds. :D

Give the OP the ability to delete any thread in their post without anyone elses permission.Not a good idea at all, in my view, at least for the general case. If you want to control your threads that tightly, start a new forum.

Not only do I believe that we need no chaperoning, as I said before---but I will go further and say that the conflicts are part of the charm. Sure, it would be better if the conflict were reduced some. But if we suddenly buttoned up completely, either voluntarily or through onerous moderation, it would suck the life out of this place.

What about folks having to use their real name to post???? Any thoughts on that one???

I'm not sure I want to know your real name. :)

Seriously though, I don't think it's a big deal to have pseudonyms. People have different levels of comfort regarding privacy on the Internet. In my view, if someone's pseudonymous, they just have to do a bit more to earn credibility. If they want to take that hit, so be it.

What about folks having to use their real name to post???? Any thoughts on that one???

Hey now! I don't think I like the idea of being forced out of my green, crunchy skin. :D

Besides, if people care to know my name, they can always explore my profile.... ;)

All I know is links to web pages where some guy talks about wearing panties is very offensive to me.











I prefer to wear bras, a nice B or C cup...;)

good post.

i agree....i think i can differentiate billions of colors, even though I know the human eye cant....i suppose it is similar to the guys who can hear a difference in digital audio cables. Not being sarcastic.

If you can, there is a very high paying job as a colourist in hollywood waiting for you.

NO STEVE... NOT THAT KIND OF COLOURIST!

If you can, there is a very high paying job as a colourist in hollywood waiting for you.

NO STEVE... NOT THAT KIND OF COLOURIST!

What's a colorist? Someone who colors comic books? Designs colors for movie sets? Paints bras while Curt's wearing one? Please advise, as you seem to be an expert. Thanks. :confused:

What about folks having to use their real name to post???? Any thoughts on that one??? How would you prove it? Besides, I think people have a reasonable right to privacy if they so choose. Just as people have been vandalized because there's been a posting in the newspaper that Mr. & Mrs. will be vacationing for two weeks in Europe, so they too can be vandalized by providing too much information on the web.

How would you prove it? Besides, I think people have a reasonable right to privacy if they so choose. Just as people have been vandalized because there's been a posting in the newspaper that Mr. & Mrs. will be vacationing for two weeks in Europe, so they too can be vandalized by providing too much information on the web.
That's why I haven't been to a vacation for half my life. I don't leave my room. I have covered the windows so nobody can look inside. If they climb up and try to enter the window, I will poke and shock them with my Valhalla power cables.

OOPS!!!

That's why I haven't been to a vacation for half my life. I don't leave my room. I have covered the windows so nobody can look inside. If they climb up and try to enter the window, I will poke and shock them with my Valhalla power cables.

And you folks take this guy seriously.

A colourist is the person who works for a film company and is in charge of ensuring that the colours are correct from scene to scene and that the film displays consistent colour.

Or color for those that speak american. :D

Dizz

you must lose that Canadian way about you

Absolutely not. It is who i am. It defines me.

Hey, I'm not a lumberjack, or a fur trader....
I don't live in an igloo or eat blubber, or own a dogsled....
and I don't know Jimmy, Sally or Suzy from Canada,
although I'm certain they're really really nice.

I have a Prime Minister, not a president.
I speak English and French, not American.
And I pronounce it 'about', not 'a boot'.

I can proudly sew my country's flag on my backpack.
I believe in peace keeping, not policing,
diversity, not assimilation,
and that the beaver is a truly proud and noble animal.
A toque is a hat, a chesterfield is a couch,
and it is pronounced 'zed' not 'zee', 'zed' !!!!

Canada is the second largest landmass!
The first nation of hockey!
and the best part of North America

My name is Chris!!
And I am Canadian!!!


(And i know that commercial was written by a US ad agency)

And I pronounce it 'about', not 'a boot'.

actually you pronounce it "a boot" and not "about" ey ;)

Absolutely not. It is who i am. It defines me.

Hey, I'm not a lumberjack, or a fur trader....

Hm... and I thought it went something like...

I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay.
I sleep all night and I work all day.

MOUNTIES:
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

BARBER:
I cut down trees. I eat my lunch.
I go to the lavatory.
On Wednesdays I go shoppin'
And have buttered scones for tea.

MOUNTIES:
He cuts down trees. He eats his lunch.
He goes to the lavatory.
On Wednesdays he goes shopping
And has buttered scones for tea.

He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

BARBER:
I cut down trees. I skip and jump.
I like to press wild flowers.
I put on women's clothing
And hang around in bars.

MOUNTIES:
He cuts down trees. He skips and jumps.
He likes to press wild flowers.
He puts on women's clothing
And hangs around in bars?!

He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

BARBER:
I cut down trees. I wear high heels,
Suspendies, and a bra.
I wish I'd been a girlie,
Just like my dear Papa.

MOUNTIES:
He cuts down trees. He wears high heels,
Suspendies, and a bra?!

[talking]
What's this? Wants to be a girlie?! Oh, My!
And I thought you were so rugged! Poofter!...

[singing]
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

He's a lumberjack, and he's okaaaaay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

;) Or maybe that's just Monty Python's take on it.

Hm... and I thought it went something like...

I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay.
I sleep all night and I work all day.

MOUNTIES:
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

BARBER:
I cut down trees. I eat my lunch.
I go to the lavatory.
On Wednesdays I go shoppin'
And have buttered scones for tea.

MOUNTIES:
He cuts down trees. He eats his lunch.
He goes to the lavatory.
On Wednesdays he goes shopping
And has buttered scones for tea.

He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

BARBER:
I cut down trees. I skip and jump.
I like to press wild flowers.
I put on women's clothing
And hang around in bars.

MOUNTIES:
He cuts down trees. He skips and jumps.
He likes to press wild flowers.
He puts on women's clothing
And hangs around in bars?!

He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

BARBER:
I cut down trees. I wear high heels,
Suspendies, and a bra.
I wish I'd been a girlie,
Just like my dear Papa.

MOUNTIES:
He cuts down trees. He wears high heels,
Suspendies, and a bra?!

[talking]
What's this? Wants to be a girlie?! Oh, My!
And I thought you were so rugged! Poofter!...

[singing]
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

He's a lumberjack, and he's okaaaaay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day.

;) Or maybe that's just Monty Python's take on it.

that's too funny

Knowing Dizz however the first poem was how he meant it "ey"

oh trust me, i know the second one as well

Steve--putting the light hearted intent of your thread aside for a moment the deep seated purpose is nonetheless present.

IMO the time has come for AVS Forum to set some rules most specifically for the cable topic.
Such a place exists, it's called the Tweaks forums and there is a "no debate" rule there. While I understand your view, I don't think such a rule should be extended here. Like it or not, this is not an "audiophiles forum" and people will continue to debate the issue. What if it was the opposite? What if every day someone posted "high-end cables, it's all a bunch of bunk"? While I happen to agree with that statement, should we stop those who disagree from stating their opinion? I don't think so. Those who don't want debate can visit another forum that is more "cable friendly".

I am still in favour to let the OP delete "offending" posts at will.
I do not think this will result in excessive censorship.

Or let the OP create a ban-list ( similar to ignore-list ).
Let's face it, there are only a very small number of users who *frustrate* the intent of threads.

Bottom line -> *** SOMETHING *** needs to be trialed as the current state of affairs is ever-repetitious when it comes to threads on cables, tweaks, and threads that digress out of topic/focus, infighting, etc.

- Andy

I am still in favour to let the OP delete "offending" posts at will.
NEVER going to happen, but promote to your hearts content :).

Such a place exists, it's called the Tweaks forums and there is a "no debate" rule there. While I understand your view, I don't think such a rule should be extended here. Like it or not, this is not an "audiophiles forum" and people will continue to debate the issue. What if it was the opposite? What if every day someone posted "high-end cables, it's all a bunch of bunk"? While I happen to agree with that statement, should we stop those who disagree from stating their opinion? I don't think so. Those who don't want debate can visit another forum that is more "cable friendly".

QQQ you know my thoughts on cables and certainly my stance has softened since coming to AVS Forum where I am now middle of the fence rather than one side or the other.

My only gripe is that predictably threads of this sort tend to implode as a result of the same Usual Suspects. I like to follow the threads and hate to see this happen time after time again.

BTW when are you coming to the SF Bay Area as my invitation to stay with me remains even though I understand your position on cables ;)

look at the times a debate has gone into the toilet and something came out of it... ok, bad analogy, but i think you get the point.

All we can ever hope for is people to try to act like adults and either answer the OP question, or logically refute statements or add to the positive side of a statements.

Everything in a cable debate though always falls to shite based on one simple phrase...

PROVE IT

No matter what side of the debate you are on, that is the phrase that blows it all up. FOr one simple reason... It cannot be proven. And nobody really cares.

"Good Response to Cable thread"
I have done some testing and i have found no differences between exotics and well constructed robust cables. So while others claim pretty fantastic things, try to do as thorough a test as you can manage before dropping an inordinate amount of $$$ on wires.

"Bad response to Cable thread"
Are you stupid, please explain how this little company in Maine (or wherever) is able to defy the laws of physics. Please include at least three published DBT's

"Other Bad response to Cable thread"
Obviously your hearing is impaired and your system sucks. When i plugged the magic widgetifier into my turntable, doves flew out of my rear orifice, and angels sang to me.


Of course asking for adult behavior on the internet is like asking for Paris Hilton to start using her money and fame for works of good.

Dizz you and QQQ IMO are now the sages of AVS

I love it

Of course asking for adult behavior on the internet is like asking for Paris Hilton to start using her money and fame for works of good.

If Paris Hilton announced tonight she was going to start using her money and fame for works of good, would you guys agree to a higher standard of posting on cable threads on this forum?

[that involves closing this thread as a start]

Wellllll......


Getting Paris to use her money and fame for good is about as good a chance as finding proof that cables actually make a difference... :p :D

I didn't say announced, i said doing...

Bottom line -> *** SOMETHING *** needs to be trialed as the current state of affairs is ever-repetitious when it comes to threads on cables, tweaks, and threads that digress out of topic/focus, infighting, etc.No. Nothing needs to be done at all. People can vote with their (virtual) feet.

Of course, that's been the case for years now, with the same arguments, attacks, repetition, etc.... and most of us are still here! Fancy that. Heck, I actually took a little break awhile back... And then I came back, with some adjustments: posting a bit less, confronting a bit less (a bit!)... If this place is bothering you that much, you can try a break too. I won't be surprised if you'll be glad to come back, as I was.

Mark Rubin is doing a fine job---by doing just enough and no more.

OB, why are you on the fence?

OB, why are you on the fence?

In all honesty because of guys like you, QQQ, Curt Palme as well as my good friends Dizzman , Morbius and Michael Grant. Yes I read these threads religiously. All of the points have been made time and again by the same people. I only put out hope that some form of civility (myself included) be present in threads of this sort and let the OP get some answers to his question both for and against. Unfortunately there are such opposing factions that I have yet to see this happen. Mark Rubin has been a wonderful mod and steps in as necessary

The nice thing about AVS is how it brought together a bunch of us several years ago who were sparring like this. We met one Saturday at my house and that is how BAAS was born. Even though there are both sides in the group I feel that I have learned a great deal from Dizzman, Michael Grant Morbius etc. I have also found (believe it or not) a voice of reason in all of this to be from QQQ. Hopefully he will make it out to California in the near future where he will become a card carrying member of BAAS. Heck even Frantz Mathias has made it all the way from Haiti to my house. So even though we disagree we can all be friends.

I agree that it can be positive when civility takes front stage, but that's not what I was getting at. When I ask you why you're on the fence, I'm asking what is it in your own mindset that causes you to apparently embrace both sides? I'm not talking about broken cables. Nor pathologically designed ones. Nor cables that measure exceedingly well but whose capacitance exascerbates a design instability in an amp. In your particular case, apart from appearance and matters of personal preference, why not go with say a Belden speaker cable instead of the Nordost?

Now, I could be wrong, but right now from where I'm sitting, it's like an OB/GYN embracing both a well rounded diet and also saying that the patient could go to a New Age Naturopath and have him/her who would examine the patient's eyes and skin color and recommend a nutritional supplement plan that used Coral Calcium. I'm perplexed.

don't be perplexed Chu

For all you might know I could be on the other side of that fence soon, For me to be in the center should merely indicate that I am neutral on the issue. Even you should understand that...I think.

don't be perplexed Chu

For all you might know I could be on the other side of that fence soon, For me to be in the center should merely indicate that I am neutral on the issue. Even you should understand that...I think.


I can just hear it now: OB with zip cord. With a new signature "OBZIPPED" or "OBJIPPED" (cause he sold all those mega expensive cables at a loss).

OB, you know I'm just joshin' with ya.

I personally believe cables do make a difference with sonics. But there's a lot of pseudocrap science promoted with many/most audiophile cabling. And cables often change the sound, but don't necessarily improve the sound overall, which is why many audiophiles change cables so much! How many of us are really qualified to "objectively" appreciate what we are hearing, so that once we tweak an improvement, the tweak/change stays in our system instead of 6 mos later we're unhappy with it and put in something else. Does a cable attenuate certain frequencies to sound better with certain components/speakers or rooms which have sonic dilemmas? Its so much more complex than one believes or doesn't believe in audiophile cabling. :eek:

I personally believe cables do make a difference with sonics. But there's a lot of pseudocrap science promoted with many/most audiophile cabling. And cables often change the sound, but don't necessarily improve the sound overall, which is why many audiophiles change cables so much! How many of us are really qualified to "objectively" appreciate what we are hearing, so that once we tweak an improvement, the tweak/change stays in our system instead of 6 mos later we're unhappy with it and put in something else. Does a cable attenuate certain frequencies to sound better with certain components/speakers or rooms which have sonic dilemmas? Its so much more complex than one believes or doesn't believe in audiophile cabling.


I agree completely.

Chu is trying to read too much into my statement.

One of my mentors in this hobby always asked a very poignant question of me whenever I changed a piece of gear or cabling that in this context rings true...

He would always ask of me "does it sound better OR does it just sound different?"

I am very happy with my "all Valhalla" system and frankly am done on my cabling. I remain neutral on the issue.

As neutral as a Valhalla cable, or as neutral as the French in World War II? (I'm J/K - i.e., being silly for comical relief.)

Fair enough OB.

Fair enough OB.

Chu....to me "fair enough" comment by you indicates that you are sitting on the middle of the fence...IOW you are neutral. ;)

On Wall Street the experts would say "don't buy, don't sell BUT remain in a holding pattern"

cables often change the sound, but don't necessarily improve the sound overall, which is why many audiophiles change cables so much! How many of us are really qualified to "objectively" appreciate what we are hearing, so that once we tweak an improvement, the tweak/change stays in our system instead of 6 mos later we're unhappy with it and put in something else. Does a cable attenuate certain frequencies to sound better with certain components/speakers or rooms which have sonic dilemmas? Its so much more complex than one believes or doesn't believe in audiophile cabling. :eek:
I have tweaked my system to match my tweaked Valhalla cables.



I am very happy with my "all Valhalla" system and frankly am done on my cabling.
Me too.

As neutral as a Valhalla cable, or as neutral as the French in World War II? (I'm J/K - i.e., being silly for comical relief.)If Valhalla was neutral it wouldn't make a difference when adding it to the system. It colors the sound to make it sound clear and neutral, but it removes some bass in the process. I like to boost up the bass with PS Audio's MWave4. It gives great synergy.
Solid-tech Feet of Silence could also be used to boost up the bass, they make the bass boomy and the highs edgy, but they sacrifice some resolution compared to Magix levitation feet.

It colors the sound to make it sound clear and neutral,

that is the most ridiculous statement I have ever read :(

What, and the rest of Valhalla's posts make sense? ;)

I'm open to proof OB.

What, and the rest of Valhalla's posts make sense? ;)

Is the Pope Catholic? ;)

that is the most ridiculous statement I have ever read :(
It's because of the silver plating and multiple conductors. Valhalla covers up the low-level details which makes it sound smooth, open and heavy. It will make it sound like real life because the background noise in the recordings isn't there.

If you disconnect the conductors and only use 1 conductor per signal, you get more low-level detail and less of the smooth openness. It will make it sound darker and faster. It will reveal the noise in the recordings.

Valhalla sounds similar to cold capacitors and MWave1. It moves the music up to the surface but the bottom layer is empty. There is some whiteness in the top layer which gives the illusion of a blacker background, but it's fake. With my 1 conductor Valhalla cables more of the signal travels in the copper core instead of the silver plating, the blackness sounds more true. Everything sounds more distinct than the original Valhalla. The biggest difference came from modding the interconnect, it sounded like something was broken because I could hear transients everywhere, the smooth sounds were gone and were replaced with transients.

Is the Pope Catholic? ;)

I thought he was above all that? :D





(I mean the head of that religion of course :eek: :p ;))

thread title changed with permission of OP

I don't have a transient problem where I live.

I don't have a transient problem where I live.

Chu, please do an experiment for us. Put some wax in your ears. Listen to your favorite music. Take the wax out of your ears. Listen to your favorite music. What difference is any do you hear?

I don't have a transient problem where I live.

With the cost of living in NYC, isn't everyone transient?

There is some whiteness in the top layer which gives the illusion of a blacker background,

do you actually read what you are saying. What am I missing?

It's because of the silver plating and multiple conductors. Valhalla covers up the low-level details which makes it sound smooth, open and heavy. It will make it sound like real life because the background noise in the recordings isn't there.

If you disconnect the conductors and only use 1 conductor per signal, you get more low-level detail and less of the smooth openness. It will make it sound darker and faster. It will reveal the noise in the recordings.

Valhalla sounds similar to cold capacitors and MWave1. It moves the music up to the surface but the bottom layer is empty. There is some whiteness in the top layer which gives the illusion of a blacker background, but it's fake. With my 1 conductor Valhalla cables more of the signal travels in the copper core instead of the silver plating, the blackness sounds more true. Everything sounds more distinct than the original Valhalla. The biggest difference came from modding the interconnect, it sounded like something was broken because I could hear transients everywhere, the smooth sounds were gone and were replaced with transients.

Patrick,

One conductor or stranded - the same net current travels through the interconnect. Assuming that each of the silver/copper conductors are uniform in the Nordost Valhalla, you're dealing with the same ratio.

When you compared multistrand to single conductor wire, was your termination the same in both cases? If so, then you might be hearing differences due to coupling capacitance with multistrand.

- Steve O.

Scorch, trying to present science or physics here is absolutely the wrong thing to do. He has written a whole new set of laws for electromagnetic transmission and RF theory.

Ahhhh, but does he know Maxwell's equations!

Ahhhh, but does he know Maxwell's equations!


Won't the silver hammer do??

Cheers, John

...

I personally believe cables do make a difference with sonics. But there's a lot of pseudocrap science promoted with many/most audiophile cabling. And cables often change the sound, but don't necessarily improve the sound overall, which is why many audiophiles change cables so much! How many of us are really qualified to "objectively" appreciate what we are hearing, so that once we tweak an improvement, the tweak/change stays in our system instead of 6 mos later we're unhappy with it and put in something else. Does a cable attenuate certain frequencies to sound better with certain components/speakers or rooms which have sonic dilemmas? Its so much more complex than one believes or doesn't believe in audiophile cabling. :eek:

I must be getting senile, I find myself in agreement with Steve B.!!! :eek:

I would not qualify myself as "neutral" . I still do believe cables make a difference and a substantial one at that. There is much more in music reproduction than many realize or believe. An example just take a good amp, good preamp and good speakers, I mean good by all objective and subjective standards if you will... Just listen.. You will be surprised how much the results may not be to yur liking or to our re-collection of a live events..

On the cable subject, video (I could add power cables ) is where I am on neutral leaning toward the "objectivists".. Once you get past a certain level of quality, say good Belden or Canare cables with good connectors, I am not too sure many experienced or trained viewers would perceive any difference.. On the purely video side, I just use the best commercial cable I can find so far it has been a mixture of Belden and Canare. For HDMI, I use Blue Jeans...

A question to VPC:

With all this tweaking do you have the time to listen to music? Your experiments remind somehow of Star Trek: You seem to have gone where No ONE has gone before

You seem to have gone where No ONE has gone before

he has never returned either

Thor has the hammer.

OB, that was just plain f****** funny!

he has never returned eitherNow that is funny :D

Patrick,

One conductor or stranded - the same net current travels through the interconnect. Assuming that each of the silver/copper conductors are uniform in the Nordost Valhalla, you're dealing with the same ratio.

When you compared multistrand to single conductor wire, was your termination the same in both cases? If so, then you might be hearing differences due to coupling capacitance with multistrand.

- Steve O.
Stranded like in conductors touching each other? Now I will have nightmares.


Nordost has each conductor in its own teflon tube. When you disconnect conductors from one end they don't carry any current.

Search for litz wire and skin effect.

When you remove the litz design and use 1 conductor, it should become worse but it didn't. I'm hearing more low-level detail so how can it be worse? Maybe the conductors in the litz cable need to be thinner.

For both the power cord (16awg) and interconnect (22awg) 1 conductor is the most revealing in my system. When I connected a 2nd conductor in the power cord the low-level details were covered up in smooth openness.
My apartment wiring is about 14awg, I think that's why. Adding thicker power cord after thinner apartment wiring just makes it worse. I get the best sound from a single conductor 50cm Valhalla power cord, I tried 2 meters and there was too little bass and detail, but everything sounded much smoother. The longer the Valhalla is the more of the coloration you hear. The longer cable made it worse because it didn't match the thickness of my apartment wiring.

A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again.
--- Alexander Pope

do you actually read what you are saying. What am I missing?
If you add more whiteness into a grey background it sounds blacker.

Try it with your LCD screen, shine a lamp on your screen and it looks blacker. The black bars when watching movies are grey, but when shining light on it the black bars are black.


Try adding jitter into the transport and it will make it sound bright and edgy with low-level details missing. This will make the background appear blacker. You also get this fake blackness and fake dynamics with Solid-tech Feet of Silence. When I replaced the Feet with Magix it made everything grey but with more low-level detail, the attack and decay of the sounds were longer which made it sound more full. But it was grey.


How to get fake blackness:

Toslink
Feet of Silence
Remove shielding



The Feet of Silence remove resolution (compared to Magix). It makes everything sound edgier which gives the illusion of more blackness and quietness. It will make the transients sound faster with more silence between them because attack and decay is missing.
But the rubber bands makes the bass sound boomy which increases the size a lot. Feet of Silence has much more bass than Magix. Magix just sounds flat from top to bottom, but it has more resolution everywhere.

Here you see that the grey background appears to be blacker if you boost up the whiteness.

http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/pictures/forum4/blog/fake.blackness.JPG

Gillespie OUT!

My apartment wiring is about 14awg, I think that's why. Adding thicker power cord after thinner apartment wiring just makes it worse. I get the best sound from a single conductor 50cm Valhalla power cord, I tried 2 meters and there was too little bass and detail, but everything sounded much smoother. The longer the Valhalla is the more of the coloration you hear. The longer cable made it worse because it didn't match the thickness of my apartment wiring.

By that logic then, the ideal situation would be to eliminate fancy power cords altogether. Remove the power outlet covers, cut the plug connections, and pull extra length of A/C out of the wall. On the component side, remove your component A/C inlet adapter, and solder/hardwire your house wiring straight to the component...

Makes sense to me ;)

- Steve O.

Here you see that the grey background appears to be blacker if you boost up the whiteness.

http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/pictures/forum4/blog/fake.blackness.JPG

I don't know, for some reason it just makes me think of Beetlejuice.

By that logic then, the ideal situation would be to eliminate fancy power cords altogether. Remove the power outlet covers, cut the plug connections, and pull extra length of A/C out of the wall. On the component side, remove your component A/C inlet adapter, and solder/hardwire your house wiring straight to the component...

Makes sense to me ;)

- Steve O.

You just gave ValhallaPC an idea!! He'll then change his name to HARDWIREDPC!!!@@@

By that logic then, the ideal situation would be to eliminate fancy power cords altogether. Remove the power outlet covers, cut the plug connections, and pull extra length of A/C out of the wall. On the component side, remove your component A/C inlet adapter, and solder/hardwire your house wiring straight to the component...

Makes sense to me ;)

- Steve O.
50cm Valhalla is still needed to add the Valhalla signature to the power conditioner. It boosts up the whiteness and gives fake transparency.

With the original fat Valhalla it adds body to the sound by sacrificing low-level detail. You can add it to stock extension strips and you hear the heavier sound. So it adds both body and whiteness, which makes it sound both heavy and fast with transparency that makes it sound like real life, it also makes it sound smoother. The signature of Valhalla is easy to hear, it sounded the same in every component I have plugged it into.

With the 1 conductor Valhalla all the heaviness is gone and it sounds even faster and more transparent. Instead of adding body to the sound, it adds even more whiteness.

Original Valhalla 3 conductors per signal: Adds body, speed and smoothness.
Modded Valhalla 1 conductor per signal: Adds speed, speed and speed.

I have done some hybrid power cord experiments and have found that putting the Valhalla at the end of the cable at the input of the component gives the best sound. It's like the Valhalla takes the AC from the crappy apartment wiring and changes it into steroids! You can tweak the Valhalla to decide what flavor of steroids you want, you can add extra weight without sacrificing the speed of apartment wiring. Or you can add extra speed. I choose the speed!

1 conductor Valhalla is amphetamine for the audio system, I have all my gear pumped full of it!

See this "Lars and lengths": http://www.nordost.co.uk/downs/reviews/hf05063.jpg

2m vs 4m Valhalla power cords. The longer cable gives bigger soundstage from smoother sound. Like I said, the longer the smoother.

Like I said, the longer the smoother.

There are other applications for this saying, not a/v related, but Vahalla, you have no experience in that department, so you wouldn't be able to comment.

What happened to your MySpace page?

http://www.myspace.com/jimpullan

Whose addicted???

Even ValhallaPC no longer has an active my space site:

http://www.myspace.com/valhallapc

When you click on ValhallaPC's my space site, you get:

"Invalid Friend ID. This user has either cancelled their membership, or their account has been deleted. "

I guess he's been so busy here no time for My Space. HA!!!

What happened to your MySpace page?

Nothing has happened. ValhallaPC isn't my myspace name, it's http://www.myspace.com/extreme_tweaking

He is either the greatest practical joke ever played here, of someone in dire need of psychiatric intervention.

He is either the greatest practical joke ever played here, of someone in dire need of psychiatric intervention.

Thats why he comes here. He can't afford $100 per hour. So he comes here for free advise.

I tried the short vs long Valhalla power cord experiment for the 3rd time. I did it between P300 Power Plant and wall.
It's definitely smoother. The difference was HUGE! First the 55cm Valhalla was fatiguing, I couldn't listen, then I added a longer Valhalla and I could listen for hours, bass was gone, everything was just thin and smooth.



From 55cm to 265cm Valhalla power cord

Impressions: Thinner and smoother. Everything sounds weak. There is no fatigue whatsoever, but the bass doesn't sound strong. The bass sounds little faster because it's thinner, but the bass is covered up in smooth openness, that's why it sounds so weak and thin.

My Cary transport was using a Statement power cord which made everything too heavy and fatiguing. But when adding a longer Valhalla elsewhere in the system it compensated for the heavy sound. But it seems to make everything worse.


It sounds like someone has been tampering with my system, it sounds so different, but it was just because of the longer Valhalla power cord!

IMO the time has come for AVS Forum to set some rules most specifically for the cable topic.


Don't see why. The forum is called AV science forum. So science is the main thing here, not pseudo "science".

I understand Valhalla PC's comments, and I think it may be time for people in this forum who disbelieve or are unable to hear cable and connection sound improvements to find a descriptor other than ‘snake oil’. I know that the original meaning of snake oil, a concoction promising to be an all-purpose curative sold by here today-gone tomorrow hucksters, has been superseded by a general meaning of deception in talk or action, but wire and connector price stratification has changed everything.

The original ‘snake oil’ was sold from wagons for 50 cents or a dollar (for most people of the time a half day’s or day’s wages). And, it promised to not only give pleasure (probably from the alcohol or laudanum), but to cure all aches, pains, and diseases. The most expensive wire promises only to give pleasure so that makes it a much more difficult sale, and the price ($48,000 for a Nordost Odin Supreme Reference 1m interconnect pair and 3m speaker cable pair, and there are other companies with comparable prices), makes that a day’s wages for only a very, very, very few.

So, it becomes clear to me that anyone who would spend such a sum on cables would not do so solely based on a salesman’s recommendation, thereby eliminating hucksterism of the snake-oil type from the equation. Even the very wealthy will test drive a new BMW or Lexus prior to purchase to be positive the experience of driving is worth it, and wire consumers should test drive cables as well. And, the measured specifications of cars are similar to audio cabling in that there are few, if any, numbers that tell you the difference in feel between the cockpit of a Lexus and a Hyundai as there are few, if any, numbers that tell you the difference in the feel of the music between listening through zip cord and the Nordost Odin.

I believe that there are people, like me, who are convinced, rightly, that the feeling and understanding of music is enhanced by high performance, quality cabling. And, that cabling deserves the same consideration for enhancing musical enjoyment as any other necessary component in the music reproduction chain. This is not to say there are no over-priced items in the hifi market, but I still don’t trust naysayers to dictate what level of pleasure I can expect based on their understanding of some numerical measurement that means little or nothing as to actual enjoyment, and instead is only an expression of a manufacturer’s ability to meet the number.

So, it becomes clear to me that anyone who would spend such a sum on cables would not do so solely based on a salesman’s recommendation, thereby eliminating hucksterism of the snake-oil type from the equation. Even the very wealthy will test drive a new BMW or Lexus prior to purchase to be positive the experience of driving is worth it, and wire consumers should test drive cables as well. And, the measured specifications of cars are similar to audio cabling in that there are few, if any, numbers that tell you the difference in feel between the cockpit of a Lexus and a Hyundai as there are few, if any, numbers that tell you the difference in the feel of the music between listening through zip cord and the Nordost Odin.
The major difference is that you CAN objectively measure the differences between the feel of the Lexus and the Hyundai, but thus far, assuming all cables are operating within acceptable electrical parameters, no one has been able to tell a difference between cables in an objective test (i.e. a sonic difference)

As to the price and people not falling for it, you really need to do a little research on placebo effect, biases and expected consequences (i.e. Hawthorne effect).

I was going to buy a 3m Valhalla power cord, slice it open and solder the pieces together for 9m apartment wiring. But then I realized it's going to get worse because of too much coloration. I also want some dimmers in the path to boost up the edginess flavor, that way I can fine-tune the sound.

I'm already using different burn-in volume of my headphones. I normally leave it running at 46dB at night. When I tried 44dB and it sounded edgy like someone had been tampering with my system, low-level details were gone. Then I tried 47dB and it sounded warmer than normally. I have been using 46dB burn-in volume for a year now. My normal listening volume is 60dB, I just put -14dB in Foobar everytime I'm not listening.

I don't know if Valhalla makes the AC better or worse, it just sounds smoother and faster, it's like it takes the harsh apartment wiring and cleans it. If you make harshness smoother it will give the illusion of more transparency and bigger soundstage.

I have been listening to my system for 2 weeks, I haven't heard any problems yet. Normally I keep writing into my logs about the problems I'm hearing, but this time there is nothing. I have saved up enough money for the Valhalla apartment wiring, but I don't hear anything wrong so why spend the money on it? Tomorrow I will purchase a 2560x1600 LCD, unless someone here has something to say about it.

As to the price and people not falling for it, you really need to do a little research on placebo effect, biases and expected consequences (i.e. Hawthorne effect).
1. Every test I have seen of the placebo effect has been done with products or medications with little (a few dollars) or no cost differential. I believe that the placebo effect is eliminated when the extra price paid is actually physically painful (the Nordost Odin is 4 times the price of their previous top end model Valhalla and at $48,000 for a set of intercons and speaker cables would be painful for most).
2. With regards to your comment about inconclusive results in listening tests on cables, I ask you, how long did it take you to set up your sound system and acoustically treat your listening space to the point that the reflections and reinforcements didn't drive you crazy? And you, or anyone else expects that a group of people with varying degrees of pinna size and shape can stay locked in a room for just a few days and be able to reliably tell the difference between additional acoustic space and just another group of reflections depending on sitting and head position?
3. That's why I say that people should listen for themselves in their own room, where they are accustomed to the acoustics and where there is no pressure from the Hawthorne effect (being studied).

Every test I have seen of the placebo effect has been done with products or medications with little (a few dollars) or no cost differential.A placebo test measures a medication's effectiveness against a similarly presented inert substance of basically zero cost. Can't get a higher cost differential than that.I believe that the placebo effect is eliminated when the extra price paid is actually physically painfulOn the contrary, it would do just the opposite and amplify the effect.

You can always smell a dealer :D

You can always smell a dealer :D

BUt can you smell a forumer dealer? Webhammer's AVS profile:

Your HT Gear:
Arcam FMJ DV29, Arcam Diva AVR350, Acoustic Energy AE1 MkIII, pair each for fronts and centers, Acoustic Energy Aelite 1 for rears, REL Brittania 2 sub, Nordost cables throughout
Biography:
Former hifi dealer 1976-1998
Location:
Indianapolis
Interests:
Music, reading, movies, writing, gardening

Guess he made so much $$$ selling those super expensive cables that he was able to retire to gardening!!! Nah, if he made that much, he'd have more expensive gear (his gear is nice, but not super mucho big lotsa bucks $$$$) :p

You can always smell a dealer :D

He who smelt it, dealt it. :p

... whoever made the rhyme, did the crime!!! :p

I love the smell of burn-in in the morning :)

I love the smell of burn-in in the morning :)

Hey, that's what she said! :o

Smells like... Victory...

Skeptics do a good job of justifying their lack of cables. Skeptics are delusional and think that cables don't matter because they don't have the money to buy them. Those who do buy them have a choice of keeping them or selling them, they don't try to justify their purchase.

If skeptics buy a car instead of a cable, they are justifying their purchase of the car by telling everyone they don't believe in cables.

Pain beats placebo, if you have two things you want to buy, you buy the one that gives the biggest improvement.
Many times when I downgraded cables I was hoping I wouldn't hear a difference, I was hoping that replacing Valhalla with Vishnu would sound acceptable (because I wanted to buy something else with the money), but it was painful to find out that it didn't sound as good as I had hoped. I didn't want to spend money on it but I had to, otherwise I couldn't listen anymore.

If you have a choice between food and cable, you do your best to avoid placebo. You don't want to spend money on something that doesn't make a real difference, but you still listen with a neutral mind because you want to hear the truth. When skeptics have the same choice, they just cover their ears because they don't want to hear the truth.

Skeptics do a good job of justifying their lack of cables. Skeptics are delusional and think that cables don't matter because they don't have the money to buy them.

Cognitive dissonance.

--Regards,

I have applied the secrets of the code transcriber to scriptures while thinking of VPC huddled in his room. What I have discovered terribly unnerved me.

http://www.truechristian.com/img/proofinbibleee.jpg

I understand Valhalla PC's comments, and I think it may be time for people in this forum who disbelieve or are unable to hear cable and connection sound improvements to find a descriptor other than ‘snake oil’. I know that the original meaning of snake oil, a concoction promising to be an all-purpose curative sold by here today-gone tomorrow hucksters, has been superseded by a general meaning of deception in talk or action, but wire and connector price stratification has changed everything.

The original ‘snake oil’ was sold from wagons for 50 cents or a dollar (for most people of the time a half day’s or day’s wages). And, it promised to not only give pleasure (probably from the alcohol or laudanum), but to cure all aches, pains, and diseases. The most expensive wire promises only to give pleasure so that makes it a much more difficult sale, and the price ($48,000 for a Nordost Odin Supreme Reference 1m interconnect pair and 3m speaker cable pair, and there are other companies with comparable prices), makes that a day’s wages for only a very, very, very few.

So, it becomes clear to me that anyone who would spend such a sum on cables would not do so solely based on a salesman’s recommendation, thereby eliminating hucksterism of the snake-oil type from the equation. Even the very wealthy will test drive a new BMW or Lexus prior to purchase to be positive the experience of driving is worth it, and wire consumers should test drive cables as well. And, the measured specifications of cars are similar to audio cabling in that there are few, if any, numbers that tell you the difference in feel between the cockpit of a Lexus and a Hyundai as there are few, if any, numbers that tell you the difference in the feel of the music between listening through zip cord and the Nordost Odin.

I believe that there are people, like me, who are convinced, rightly, that the feeling and understanding of music is enhanced by high performance, quality cabling. And, that cabling deserves the same consideration for enhancing musical enjoyment as any other necessary component in the music reproduction chain. This is not to say there are no over-priced items in the hifi market, but I still don’t trust naysayers to dictate what level of pleasure I can expect based on their understanding of some numerical measurement that means little or nothing as to actual enjoyment, and instead is only an expression of a manufacturer’s ability to meet the number.

Good post

A placebo test measures a medication's effectiveness against a similarly presented inert substance of basically zero cost. Can't get a higher cost differential than that.On the contrary, it would do just the opposite and amplify the effect.
So you're saying that in a test, if one pill cost the consumer $5 and the other $50,000, that a preference would be expressed magnifying the placebo effect. THE TEST WOULD NEVER TAKE PLACE, UNLESS MAYBE THE PILL TAKER WAS PROMISED ETERNAL LIFE AND YOUTH!!!! How can you justify your statement that painful expense amplifies placebo effect?

So you're saying that in a test, if one pill cost the consumer $5 and the other $50,000, that a preference would be expressed magnifying the placebo effect. THE TEST WOULD NEVER TAKE PLACE, UNLESS MAYBE THE PILL TAKER WAS PROMISED ETERNAL LIFE AND YOUTH!!!! How can you justify your statement that painful expense amplifies placebo effect?

I think the textbook definition includes that "expectations" of increased performance often increases the delusion of increased performance when none really exists.

Someone was telling me recently that this effect is so powerful on some people that cancer patients given placebos, within a group of other cancer patients given real treatments, actually lost their hair as if they were receiving chemotherapy when in fact they had not received those treatments.

So you're saying that in a test, if one pill cost the consumer $5 and the other $50,000, that a preference would be expressed magnifying the placebo effect.Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. The placebo effect depends on the drug taker's belief about a pill's effectiveness. A pill that is known to cost more will quite likely be presumed by the taker to be more effective, too.

But you're still characterizing placebo tests wrong anyway. A placebo test does not test one drug against another; it tests one drug against a "fake" drug. In a properly controlled placebo test, patients are assigned either the real drug or a placebo in a double-blind fashion. The important thing is that all patients believe there is a good chance they're actually taking the drug. Ideally you'd want to lie to them and tell them they're all getting the drug but the placebo effect is powerful enough to work in this less ideal scenario too.THE TEST WOULD NEVER TAKE PLACE, UNLESS MAYBE THE PILL TAKER WAS PROMISED ETERNAL LIFE AND YOUTH!!!!You seem to think the pill taker pays for the test. But drug testing is sponsored by the drug maker. Now granted, the drug maker might not bother with a pill that costs $50K a dose, either, because if it passes the drug test there's still the little matter of getting people and/or their insurance companies to pay for it. But maybe the $50K cost represents the initial production cost, and will go down dramatically with volume. Or maybe the $50K drug is targeted to offset an even more expensive battery of treatments. Or maybe the $50K drug is meant to treat a very rare disease, which means insurance companies would be willing to amortize the costs over the entire base of patients.

But no matter. The original point stands that the placebo effect doesn't magically go away if someone consciously believes they can't afford the positive outcome; in fact it could very well make the positive outcome more likely.How can you justify your statement that painful expense amplifies placebo effect?Because it's correct :) Seriously though, let's assume for the sake of argument that you're right---that once someone knows a pill---or a speaker cable---is too expensive for them, that it will prevent them from experiencing its effectiveness. Well, you're still supporting the point that the power of suggestion can powerfully impact someone's experiences. So I don't think that the objectivism argument is weakened considerably by your claim. Furthermore, QueueClimber (for example) could afford the cables he tested; indeed he had already paid for them.

Hi

At the end of the day.. and the more I am reading in this... it seems that people who purchase expensive cables are constructed as naive beings incapable of making rational decisions on what they perceive.. they will simply go by price and expect greatness. Why do they chose THIS expensive cable, rather than THAT expensive cable, is not a question worth answering ...

Several people with expensive cable experience, myself included can tell you that they have chosen less expensive to cheaper cable if it appears to them that it makes their system better. It is not a simple affair of choosing the most expensive cable.

I am annoyed that several on this list usually the same ones would jump in any cable threads with posts that do not address in any way the subject at hand..I have expressed on this board my reservations about cable prices and manufacturers claims... The manufacturers are guilty as well, they (mostly) offer no valid reason why their cables would be superior and too often they are outright lies...

I must say that I do not know why in my experience cables make such differences, I do not care to... I would suggest to several naysayers to just listen at least once a good system and swap cables... just listen..

Completely OT about something I read in Queuecumber signature:

"When you believe in things that you don't understand,
Then you suffer,
Superstition ain't the way."

My take. I and probably several on this board believe in science .. of course.. Do we understand it all? Do we understand all that we believe in science? Do we understand much about quantum mechanics for example or biology or psychology or ... I am not saying we are not able to, simply, that at the moment of belief, do we underSTAND? Do we understand before we believe?

FrantzM, you're a good man, but you can hardly blame people for this:it seems that people who purchase expensive cables are constructed as naive beings incapable of making rational decisions on what they perceive.when in the same post you say this:I must say that I do not know why in my experience cables make such differences, I do not care to.Of course you're far from the only person to express this sentiment.

Furthermore, this quote unfortunately highlights why agreement may never come:I would suggest to several naysayers to just listen at least once a good system and swap cables... just listen..But of course, one of the central points of the objectivist argument is that "just listening" is not sufficient to make a "rational decision based on what they perceive."

The term is "cognitive dissonance".

--Regards,

Mike

I do not blame people , I simply stated.... now not caring does not mean I go for the most expensive...

Stating that cables make a difference, does not imply the more expensive the better...

When I said "blame" FrantzM I simply mean this: someone who says "they don't care" why cables sound different can rightly be accused of not making a "rational" decision based on what they perceive. Nobody on this forum is naive: everyone reading this thread (and previous threads) are well aware of the objectivist/naysayer arguments: blinded testing, precise level matching, the power of suggestion, confirmation bias, and so forth.

But once those arguments are known, to set aside those arguments and continue to "just listen" simply isn't rational. Not that we have to go through life being rational about everything! I mean, this is just for enjoyment, after all. And a lot of the things that would make a comparison test truly objective can be a pain in the ass and can diminish that enjoyment. (Hmm, is that a rational argument for being less rational? :))

And believe me I certainly don't think that anyone here, subjectivist or otherwise, is looking to buy the most expensive thingamajig just because it's more expensive. I know my discussion of the placebo effect might suggest that, but I was simply responding to webhammer's claim that high costs could negate the placebo effect. I do think it's reasonable to argue that there is a subconscious bias towards the more expensive. But it's not always going to work out that way.

I do think it's reasonable to argue that there is a subconscious bias towards the more expensive. But it's not always going to work out that way.
In essence that is one of the confounding variables in determining what is at the root of a perceived difference. By its very nature, subconscious (and I'm not talking in some dark Freudian sense) bias "falls" below our awareness threshold, so it can affect our perceptions (and by extension our decisions) without us realizing it. In the same context you can have amps that sound different, but if one were to assume all SS amps sound the same, then one would likely erroneously conclude the amps have an identical sonic signature (unless the sound is dramatically different)

It may be for enjoyment for us Michael, but it's a business on the other end and buisnesses, if they hope to persist, are out to make money. A while back, a company in France that marketed new age remedies and what not, ran afoul of French laws. They're claims were too remarkable and unsubstantiated. So, what did they do? They marketed essentially the same products and claims to audiophiles. Less health risk for the public it would seem.

Completely OT about something I read in Queuecumber signature:

"When you believe in things that you don't understand,
Then you suffer,
Superstition ain't the way."

My take. I and probably several on this board believe in science .. of course.. Do we understand it all? Do we understand all that we believe in science? Do we understand much about quantum mechanics for example or biology or psychology or ... I am not saying we are not able to, simply, that at the moment of belief, do we underSTAND? Do we understand before we believe?

I think Socrates said it best "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."

Then again, since he admits to knowing nothing, why the hell should I listen to him anyway.... :p

If i see two cables, one is 100 and one is 1000 based on my background, i will likely think that the 100 one is well made and should do a good job. the 1K one is likely (in my brain) going to be immediately assumed to be snake oil.

If my wife sees two bottles of wine, (even if they both have the same ranking from wine spectator) and one is 25$ and the other is 125$, she will assume the 125$ one is better and want it.

Biases are built in and cannot be consciously overcome.

I think Socrates said it best "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."

Then again, since he admits to knowing nothing, why the hell should I listen to him anyway.... :p


....and a few teachers/professors I have learned from also have said "The more you understand... the less you actually know".

Do we need to move this to the 'philosphical' A/V section :p

so owning more than $20,000 of audio equipment is a prerequisite to having a knowledge of basic physics? i haven't ever been a part of any cable threads in this forum before so I'm not qutie sure what has gone on, but I don't quite see what it would matter what anyone owns if the discussion is simply on basic speaker cable. whether one makes $20,000 a year or $200 million doesn't change the laws of physics so that they act differently upon one's belongings than on someone elses and you don't need fancy stuff to try to hear a difference between a $12,000 speaker cable and a $40 one, just a little physics calculating. although if the discussions get into more complex stuff, then perhaps. i know that even just switching something seemingly so basic as an opamp can make a noticeable difference.

Now that the Wilson Maxx Cable thread is closed, we've gotta have some fun. Hence this thread.

Anyone read comic books? Current Marvel Comics recently concluded "Civil War".
Super Heroes fought Super Heroes, a fight over enforcing the Super Human Registration Act whereby the government would know the not so secret identity of each super powered human and the government would assign the super heroes in teams to "protect" each of the fifty states. The super heroes who wouldn't sign up are under arrest and imprisoned in a super duper prison in another dimension, except for those that fight and have yet to be caught.
But now, months later, surprise - Electra (remember her from the Daredevil movie) is killed and she turns into a dead alien shapeshifter Skrull. Now super folks are starting to realize that there's a lot more going on than they thought. They had non-human spies all among them in the guise of government officials, super powered folks, etc.

Make an analogy to the Cable Wars, etc. as this forum. Do we have "spies" among us? By "spies", I mean a person or person swho engages in these lively discussions from "afar" - who has never ever said what component(s) they own, posted reviews or questions about those component(s), but just pretty much always chimed in on other folks threads about products or cables. Is that person a "Skrull" among us? Does that person even own anything more than a little NTSC TV or Bose stereo? :D

The Wilson Maxx Cable thread was just closed. Read over that thread carefully.
Anyone participating in that thread meet the above criteria?

Its wartime. The Wilson Maxx Cable thread was closed. Do you ever wonder if one or more particpants in these lively threads are "shrills", folks who don't even own other than a little tiny TV but love to have fun on these threads contributing to or causing havok among us? HA!

so owning more than $20,000 of audio equipment is a prerequisite to having a knowledge of basic physics? i haven't ever been a part of any cable threads in this forum before so I'm not qutie sure what has gone on, but I don't quite see what it would matter what anyone owns if the discussion is simply on basic speaker cable. whether one makes $20,000 a year or $200 million doesn't change the laws of physics so that they act differently upon one's belongings than on someone elses and you don't need fancy stuff to try to hear a difference between a $12,000 speaker cable and a $40 one, just a little physics calculating. although if the discussions get into more complex stuff, then perhaps. i know that even just switching something seemingly so basic as an opamp can make a noticeable difference.

How could anyone who reads my starting post to this thread possibly think I said anything like you must own $20K of audio equipment as a prerequisite to having a knowledge of basic physics? I said nothing like that, did I?

or maybe skeptics know a tad of science?
explain to me the physics of your $5000 speaker cable....
anyone, i don't want to get into a mess here.
but you can get the same gauge and geometry for tons less than those
snake oil products.
many of those cables are designed by the marketing guru and scientists.
i would bet one could find ways to put $2000 or $40,000 to use that would make more apparent sound improvements even to the cable believers.

certainly a hair fine piece of copper wire won't sound so good, but that's not what debunkers are talking about.

but whatever, you give them nice homes and vacations and put your mind at ease and if you have more $ than you know what to do with, i guess whatever, everyone's happy.

oh and yeah true i can't afford $12,000 speaker cable but i can afford way more than what i did spend on cables. but why?

Skeptics do a good job of justifying their lack of cables. Skeptics are delusional and think that cables don't matter because they don't have the money to buy them. Those who do buy them have a choice of keeping them or selling them, they don't try to justify their purchase.

If skeptics buy a car instead of a cable, they are justifying their purchase of the car by telling everyone they don't believe in cables.

Pain beats placebo, if you have two things you want to buy, you buy the one that gives the biggest improvement.
Many times when I downgraded cables I was hoping I wouldn't hear a difference, I was hoping that replacing Valhalla with Vishnu would sound acceptable (because I wanted to buy something else with the money), but it was painful to find out that it didn't sound as good as I had hoped. I didn't want to spend money on it but I had to, otherwise I couldn't listen anymore.

If you have a choice between food and cable, you do your best to avoid placebo. You don't want to spend money on something that doesn't make a real difference, but you still listen with a neutral mind because you want to hear the truth. When skeptics have the same choice, they just cover their ears because they don't want to hear the truth.

How could anyone who reads my starting post to this thread possibly think I said anything like you must own $20K of audio equipment as a prerequisite to having a knowledge of basic physics? I said nothing like that, did I?

what i meant is that you made it sound like nobody who lacks high end equipment and has actually tried very expensive cables is qualified to talk about such matters (and that some might even just be dipping in here for some trolling fun or something) but that i felt that one could say some sensible things on this particular topic and not even own speakers or have even ever listened to music, since all you need is some knowledge of physics. now perhaps i am wrong and there are some priciples of physics at play of which i am unaware, but the probability is too low in mind to make it worth the effort to bother the time or money on anything more than the basic cabling i have.

it has been said many times. one side would like to see or hear something as to why these cables are better. one side does not care, belief is on their side.

Hi

This thread like any thread on cables is going in circles.... Same things are being said and repeated.... I do however find an interesting trend.. Discussion has moved ever so slightly toward price... Maybe we should re-center the debate (so that we can start going in different circles):
Perhaps the question should be:
Irrespective of price do cables make a difference?

I do not expect much from the debate but eh!.. One should always try...

Here are a couple of emails I have from Granite Audio. They seem like nice enough folks, yet I dont think they really answered my questions with any real science except impedance but I questio if it is any different than any correctly made cable. Seems like alot of sales hype.



From: don2@graniteaudio.com Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
To: "Rob Hout" <xxxxx@xxxx.xxx>
Subject: Granite Audio XLR cables.
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 21:00:58 -0400

Hi Rob,

Thanks for your interest in our fine handcrafted cables. Our
interconnects
sound fantastic right out of the box. No need for any burn-in. They
do
sound even better after 100 hours of usage, though.

I don't have any 3 meter XLR made up, but I would love to make you a
pair.
I do have all the materials and parts in stock.


Sincerely,
Don Hoglund, President Granite Audio
don2@graniteaudio.com
925 West Baseline Road
Suite 105-N2
Tempe, Arizona 85283
480-829-8374


Email #2 That I sent to them

Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 16:25:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: " Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
Subject: Re: Granite Audio XLR cables.
To: don2@graniteaudio.com
WOW very cool the president writes me back. Great service so far. Can you help a newbie understand somethings please. I have used Whirlwind cables in the past and they are alot less expensive, so I need to be able to understand and justify to the Mrs the purchase. Also I have heard many speak of break in, burn in cable cooking etc.. I dont know how or why it is done.Can you explain? It seems burn in is not what I would do here but more break in? My brain doesnt wrap around the idea of it changing or why since I see it as a non active cable.

I was steered your way by a lawyer in Arizona who is crazy about your cables from AVS. I have the cash to spend but its hard understanding why.


Email #2 back from them.

From: don2@graniteaudio.com Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
To: "
Subject: Re: Granite Audio XLR cables.
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 00:51:01 -0400

Hi Robert,

Thanks for your email and great questions.

The job of the interconnect is to transfer the music signal from one
component to another without ruining it in the process. Since the
cable is
a passive device, it can only take away from the signal; or at best,
not
change it. Our Model #470 does that better than any other cable at any

price. We use 99.9999% Pure Continuous-Cast Continuous-Crystal Silver
wire
for the maximum signal transfer and minimum impedance. So, whatever
quality
signal goes into one end of the cable, it comes out the other end
undamaged.
Many customers have described the #470 as a "clear window to the
music." I
think that is very accurate.

Then the Model #470 has a dual shield of 95% silver braid and 100%
silver
foil for maximum shielding of external noise. The Model #470 has the
best
signal to noise ratio of any cable I know of. That means you get a
quiet
black background for your favorite music that is free of unwanted EMI
and
RFI noise. Noise rejection and reduction are further enhanced by the
twisted pair configuration of the signal and return path wires. This
creates common mode noise rejection.

So, the Model #470 has maximum quality signal transfer and maximum
noise
rejection. And the #470 is a one time investment. We are the brand
that
everyone else upgrades to. Once you get the #470, you're done
upgrading.
There is no better. And the cable will last the rest of your life.
I've
been making handcrafted cables for over 25 years and never had a single

cable failure. 25 years, and all the cables are still in use and none
have
failed. Not one. That's value.

Several years ago the 4 editors of Amp Magazine bought the top 25
interconnects in the world and spent 4 months evaluating them. Our
Model
#470 was one of only 4 brands to make their top category A and was the
least
expensive. That is extreme value. Your Mrs. may wince at our price,
but
you will be getting the best interconnect in the world for the lowest
price
of the Top 4 tested. That's value.

I can't explain burn-in. I ship all our power cords with 10 days of
burn-in
on our proprietary device. But, I don't burn-in any of our other cable

products. [I]They all sound better after usage, but I don't know why[B].

I can give you the special AVS Forum
discount on
your order of 30% off the List price on the website. For more info on
the
#470 cable, check out our webpage.

http://www.graniteaudio.com/cable/page4.html

I look forward to your additional questions and to hopefully processing
an
order for you.

Best Regards, Don Hoglund.

Hi

This thread like any thread on cables is going in circles.... Same things are being said and repeated.... I do however find an interesting trend.. Discussion has moved ever so slightly toward price... Maybe we should re-center the debate (so that we can start going in different circles):
Perhaps the question should be:
Irrespective of price do cables make a difference?

I do not expect much from the debate but eh!.. One should always try...

well a super low gauge wire will certaintly mess things up except for incredibly short runs, and even then if it is really filmsy. so, yeah, if you get too, too flimsy of a cable or it is made of some ridiculously bad substance, it can certainly have a negative impact and for long runs you do need a pretty solid cable and can't just grab anything. so, i would say cables can make a difference, but that said, the point of no further return, imo, can be reached with a very basic design the likes of which you can find at walmart of home depot.

so i would say clearly yes, but not really so long as you so much as just get plenty of gauge for whatever distance run you do.


as to what various mods do, no way to answer, a mod can be almost anything, and surely many could affect sound, even profoundly, one could do just about antyhign and call it a mod. so that's a far too general question. surely many do something and surely many don't and surely many do something but below any detectable level. surely some that do stuff don't do postive stuff or at least only partly so. surely many mods are pure snake oil. something like swapping out crappy opamps for state of the art ones will do something and likely entirely good. surely dying your interconnect red food color sold as magic interconnect coloration paint will do nothing.

When I first got my Nordost Valhalla interconnect 2 and half years ago I plugged it into my EMU0404 soundcard ($99) using cheap adapters. I was using a cheap Graham Slee Solo headphone amp and AKG K501 headphones. The interconnect cost 3 times more than my whole system. I heard a difference, everything sounded little colder.

Previously I was using cheap Van den Hul and Outlaw PCA interconnects. I didn't hear a difference between them. They both sounded too warm and muddy compared to stock cable, they were not worth the price because I don't like muddy sound.

But then I got the Valhalla and there was no muddiness, it was worth every penny. That's why I spent my life savings on more Valhalla cables.

You don't need high-end gear to hear a difference from Valhalla.

http://huehueteotl.wordpress.com/2007/07/06/659/

I like this one better.. then the cable debate would have to move on.

http://huehueteotl.wordpress.com/

Art

I like this one better.. then the cable debate would have to move on.

http://huehueteotl.wordpress.com/

Art

Then we could argue about doping the air with various gasses to improve sonics.
:D