I've been thinking and posting a lot recently about color performance, so I thought it might be useful to collect and report some actual data regarding the color performance of several projectors that either I or someone whose aid I have enlisted have directly measured.

This is not intended as an all-things-considered comparison of these projectors, as color performance is only one characteristic to consider, albeit an important one.

I use the xyY color space and dE (1976), imperfect as they are, only because they are commonly used and the math was accessible to me. Delta-E is most commonly used for gray scale measurements, but since it is a measure of color deviation from a known reference it can used just as well as a way of assessing overall color accuracy.

The projectors I include are present mostly out of convenience. There are several I would like to have reported on, especially the BenQ W10000 and the Epson TW1000, but I didn't have any reliable numbers on hand. Maybe later. I also throw in a Sony direct view CRT just for reference sake.

I start with a summary chart, followed by general observations about each with a link to the raw data if that should interest you.

http://displaycalibrationonline.com/color_project/images/summary.gif


Optoma H79: This 720P DLP was a middling performer, suffering from an oversaturated red, a yellowish green, and poor color decoding. With color decoding correction offered by some external processors, this would be a good performer.
Details (http://displaycalibrationonline.com/color_project/h79.htm)
Sony Ruby: This projector performed below average, entirely because of its oversaturated primaries. I didn't have any reliable color decoding information, but the reviews suggest that it is good.
Details (http://displaycalibrationonline.com/color_project/ruby.htm)
Sony 36" CRT: This nearly dead technology still produces some of the best images I've seen. This unit doesn't allow any adjustments to its primaries, but they aren't far off by design and it includes a color decoding control. Nice picture.
Details (http://displaycalibrationonline.com/color_project/crt.htm)
JVC RS1: The very popular projector brings up the rear due to its wildly oversaturated primaries. The complaints about this are not just anecdotal. It's very real. On the positive side, the color decoding is excellent and the primaries are ALL oversaturated, which somewhat mitigates the visual impact.
Details (http://displaycalibrationonline.com/color_project/rs1.htm)
Sharp XV-Z12000 MK II: A mixed bag. On the one hand, its CMS allows it to get much better color performance than it would have had otherwise. On the other hand, its overly yellowish green cannot be entirely corrected by the CMS, so it ends up with merely good performance--about on par with the Sony CRT-- rather than the excellent performance it is theoretically capable of.
Details (http://displaycalibrationonline.com/color_project/12K.htm)
Sharp XV-Z20000: Basically a 1080P version of the 12K, this projector has the advantage of beginning with more accurate primaries to begin with. Thus, the color performance is truly excellent. It would have been even better, but the blue saturation control on the CMS doesn't really work, so the errors in blue could not be corrected. I include details for both corrected and uncorrected performance as yet one more advertisement for the value of a CMS. It transforms color performance from merely average to excellent.
Details (uncorrected) (http://displaycalibrationonline.com/color_project/20K_uncorrected.htm)
Details (corrected) (http://displaycalibrationonline.com/color_project/20K_corrected.htm)
Optoma HD7100/7300: This was the big surprise of my survey. Due to the full-featured CMS hidden in the service menu, this projector takes top honors, edging out the Sharp 20K by a nose. Who knew?
Details (http://displaycalibrationonline.com/color_project/hd7100.htm)

:confused: Not to be rude nor do I mean to crap on your thread, but what about projection systems like the HT5000 or the G90 stack?

Hell, I would even like to see IMAX on that list as well as other top projectors on the market.

While color balance is an extremely important part of the image, on/off CR, light output, and ANSI are just as important and should balance accordingly. :)

Cliff

Tomm

Good report - need to document the measures though. Is this average error or RMS error? Is it for RGBCMY or just RGB? Is this CIELUV or CIELAB? SMPTE-C/REC601 or REC709?

I think the Mitsu HC3000 (greyscale corrected only - no CMS) has them all beat - but depends which error you are reporting.

Either way - reviews have been doing everyone a disservice by not reporting color error - yes it is one of many things that need doing to get right - but we should at least get the numbers to make our own decisions on what is important. A yellower green could mean a 2-3x brighter PJ for example.

The only reason displays have adequate grayscale controls is because magazines do report on that - so the marketers asked the engineers to add the controls so they could send out a "tweaked" unit so as to get a "good" review - even despite them not having a calibrated preset.

If I recall the Ruby could use RCP to correct for perfect decoding - so that is realistic - you get much worse results if you try to correct for perfect gamut instead. But to be fair you should strive for a corrected vs. uncorrected report on it. Uncorrected defaults would be worse for sure.

Is this average error or RMS error? Is it for RGBCMY or just RGB? Is this CIELUV or CIELAB? SMPTE-C/REC601 or REC709?Average error. RGB. CIELAB. All are Rec709, except the Sony CRT and Optoma H79, which are SMPTE-C.

:confused: Not to be rude nor do I mean to crap on your thread, but what about projection systems like the HT5000 or the G90 stack?What about them?

Hell, I would even like to see IMAX on that list as well as other top projectors on the market.So would I.

While color balance is an extremely important part of the image, on/off CR, light output, and ANSI are just as important and should balance accordingly.I think I said this.

My data is RMS error for RGBCMY - CIELUV and REC709 - guess we can't compare numbers...I might have raw XYZ tables filed somewhere if you are interested in them.

Color accuracy in film projection commercial cinemas can be very poor. This paper has white measurements for 100 theaters:
http://www.movingimagetech.com/White%20Point-digital-ASC.pdf
The white reference is all over the place and the resultant color accuracy varies a lot.

The situation with digital cinema is much better. A typical digital cinema projector like the Barco DP100 can be calibrated in about 15 minutes to have a dE of less than 2, all the way to full white. The dE can be brought to less than 1, well within the measuring accuracy of the typical spectroradiometer, with a very high resolution LUT. All parameters in the matrix conversion formulas are adjustable and any standard within the large color gamut can be selected.

All units had a greyscale calibration done prior to the color-measurements ?

All units had a greyscale calibration done prior to the color-measurements ?I think so. In any case, gray scale doesn't affect the primaries much. It will, however, affect the secondaries.

What about them?

So would I.

I think I said this.

Like I said Tom, I wasn't trying to sound rude. Forum posts can come across in a much different manner than what is intended when typed.

Cliff

I guess color isn't everything. I wouldn't trade the RS1 for any of those projectors that appear to be better by that graph.

I would have to say the factory defaults are very enjoyable to me. If they were changed I would probably be disappointed. In fact I think we will see a trend in this direction as the average consumer is happier with it. My Plasma is way off but I like it too.

It's like those digital guys out there who loved their older bulb projectors despite their gray blacks. No big deal. Yadda Yadda. Then comes along a bulb with decent blacks, the RS1. Decent not not great. Oh. My God. Blacks are important. Gotta get you one.

Wait until the AVS masses see a good black bulb with accurate colors. Oh. My god. Gotta get you one. One doesn't appreciate accurate colors until you see them. But its OK. many who buy the RS1 will keep defending it into antiguity when it is surpased for the same money this fall.

Wait until the AVS masses see a good black bulb with accurate colors. Oh. My god. Gotta get you one. One doesn't appreciate accurate colors until you see them. But its OK. many who buy the RS1 will keep defending it into antiguity when it is surpased for the same money this fall.
I expect to be able to get the colors right with the RS1 in time. Either with an external processor or a firmware update. Should that fail there is always the next and better projector around the corner. But I'm not going below 15000:1 with digital anymore. :D

One doesn't appreciate accurate colors until you see them. But its OK. many who buy the RS1 will keep defending it into antiguity when it is surpased for the same money this fall.

HD10k calibrated with a 12bit LUT vs HD1 calibrated with user controls to within Delta4 across the entire grayscale but left with the customary oversaturated green and red primaries.

I still prefer the HD1.

I'm surprised that I missed this thread when it was first posted. One thing that should be clarified at the beginning of the thread and graph is that Tom's comparison is of the average dE of the 3 color primaries. When dE and color accuraccy are usually brought up it's applied to the accuracy of the D65 white point. So the thread/graph should be clarified to make it clear that this is what it's showing. It would also be interesting to show the OOB white point color accuracy as this is also an important measure of color accuracy. It's also good to keep in mind what Tom said about ALL 3 primaries being oversaturated so that the colorspace isn't skewed.

With those things in mind though I think this thread serves a very useful purpose in educating people on the accuracy of color primaries. In years past there was a tendency to only discuss color accuracy with respect to grayscale tracking. Keep up the good work!

One question for Tom, what equipment do you use to measure such diverse color primaries? My colorimeter can accurately measure some primaries but not others so it's best used for white point accuracy. Did you use a colorimeter for these measurements?

HD10k calibrated with a 12bit LUT vs HD1 calibrated with user controls to within Delta4 across the entire grayscale but left with the customary oversaturated green and red primaries.

I still prefer the HD1.
I have never been able to find a JVC projector to demo and bought this one sight unseen. Are oversaturated green and red primaries normal for JVC? If this is true, I will avoid their products in the future.

I have never been able to find a JVC projector to demo and bought this one sight unseen. Are oversaturated green and red primaries normal for JVC? If this is true, I will avoid their products in the future.

No. The HD10K has more accurate color primaries. The oversaturated primaries are typical of Sony though and that's what the RS-1 was targeted at. JVC has incorporated CMS into some of their products in the past but not the FP market. The RS-1 was rushed to market and it'll be very interesting to see what the next iteration of this technology will yield.

One question for Tom, what equipment do you use to measure such diverse color primaries?Mark, I think for all these measurements I used the GretagMacbeth i1Pro.

The RS-1 was rushed to market and it'll be very interesting to see what the next iteration of this technology will yield.
If no acceptable means of getting accurate colors is found, I'm afraid JVC will never get a second chance with me. I am still holding out hope that Lumagen can fix the mess that they have made but my hope is waning. My desire is not to buy a new projector every year. I believe even Sony allows for correction of the oversaturated colors?

Mark, I think for all these measurements I used the GretagMacbeth i1Pro.

Thanks Tom.

I believe even Sony allows for correction of the oversaturated colors?
Not really. Even though Sony has their RCP (Real Color Processor), it lacks the true saturation control that is needed to correct the primaries without lowering luminance at the same time. Sony's oversaturated colors are not as bad as the RS-1's (though I don't know how they compare to the HD10k's), but they are still oversaturated. I won't buy any more products from either company until such time as accurate primaries are provided or are at least possible through a proper CMS.

BTW, for those who are wondering, Tolstoi's comments in another thread claiming that the RS-1's primaries can be corrected through custom gamma processing is totally incorrect, and though I don't know the specifics of the Anthem D2's software, based on my own experiences with Anthem I sincerely doubt that they have come up with any solution either. Anthem is still trying to solve problems that other VP companies solved a long time ago (like passing 1080p signals, for example).

If no acceptable means of getting accurate colors is found, I'm afraid JVC will never get a second chance with me. I am still holding out hope that Lumagen can fix the mess that they have made but my hope is waning. My desire is not to buy a new projector every year. I believe even Sony allows for correction of the oversaturated colors?

The real problem is that there is no perfect digital. All projectors have their strengths and weaknesses. If you want a videophile machine without any weaknesses then the thing to do is to not to buy now or for the forseeable future.

IIRC this is your first projector and if you had purchased something else you probably would have been similarly bothered by a different shortcoming (RBE, lower contrast, less lumens, bad deinterlacing, soft focus, etc,etc). The RS-1 probably comes closest to be the best overall projector in the less than $10k market today for many if not most people but it has it's shortcomings too (chiefly the color primary issue). Luckily for JVC, color accuracy is the easiest to fix.

As an industry though there has been tremendous improvements made in PQ recently, particularly with contrast but there is still a ways to go if you want a true videophile projector. Such a machine will always be a moving target though. people will always want more ANSI cr, more on/off cr, more lumens, better convergence, less artifacting etc.

The real problem is that there is no perfect digital. All projectors have their strengths and weaknesses. If you want a videophile machine without any weaknesses then the thing to do is to not to buy now or for the forseeable future.

:sigh: Our disease is so unmanageable. :p

mmmh... i wonder what's the real purpose of this thread ?....
we all know the competition towards the JVC is very unpleased by the sales success encoutered by JVC first home theater projector ever marketed... (discount the HX1 HX2 HD2K) and the cancellations of orders of this or that brand.
but I agree there's perhaps too many threads on the JVC also here.

:sigh: Our disease is so unmanageable. :p

LOL. This is getting off-topic, but if a person steps back and looks at all the griping that people do about the RS1, SXRD, 1-chip DLP, 3-chip DLP, LCD, etc. it becomes readily apparent that there are alot of experienced videophiles on this forum that are extremely picky about all facets of projector performance and PQ but there isn't a projector on the market that yet satisfies this need. So people end up saying stuff like, "well your projector A has problem Y" and the other person responds, "well your projector B has problem X". If the forum as a whole recognizes that there are no perfect projectors then I think a lot of the discussions would be more productive and focus on things like new technologies, new innovations and forthcoming products etc.

This is getting off-topic, but if a person steps back and looks at all the griping that people do about the RS1, SXRD, 1-chip DLP, 3-chip DLP, LCD, etc. it becomes readily apparent that there are alot of experienced videophiles on this forum that are extremely picky about all facets of projector performance and PQ but there isn't a projector on the market that yet satisfies this need.

I would say obsessed is more like it, myself included.

Scott

mmmh... i wonder what's the real purpose of this thread ?....
we all know the competition towards the JVC is very unpleased by the sales success encoutered by JVC first home theater projector ever marketed... (discount the HX1 HX2 HD2K) and the cancellations of orders of this or that brand.
but I agree there's perhaps too many threads on the JVC also here.

The real purpose of this thread is to educate people.

If I had known this information about how truly oversaturated the RS1 / HD1 colors were (and known that the problem can't be fixed), I would have never bought the JVC. Instead, I bought the PJ sight unseen based on all the hype from so many on this forum and I was VERY DISAPOINTED in the RS1 within the first two minutes of ownership.

As others stated above, I will not buy another JVC product based on my displeasure of this product. If JVC addresses the color issues of their PJ(s), I would consider buying another. Until then, they could offer a new PJ tomorrow that has 100,000:1 CR, cost $3k, and I still wouldn't buy it if the colors are as assed-up as they are on the RS1. The image projected from this PJ almost makes everything look like a cartoon IMO.

I find it remarkable that we have so many video connaisseurs here (which seem to generally only care about CR), yet the vast majority don't seem to care about something as fundamental as accurate colors... Some folks here really need to see an accurate display next to their pride and joy to truly appreciate the difference! It's almost ironic that the vast majority here probably care enough to own some type of calibration software (DVE, AVIA, etc.), yet don't even realize how inaccurate the colors on their display really are. Once you see the difference it's hard to accept over-blown colors like those found on the JVC.

Just my worthless 2 cents.

Once you see the difference it's hard to accept over-blown colors like those found on the JVC.
:sigh: Our disease is so unmanageable. :(

I have owned several projectors now. Nothing has bothered me as much as the JVC colors. Sorry but I am not one that you can just stick in the "picky" category. I have been on the forum since 2000 and have owned projectors for 4 of those years and have been evaluating them since 1999 with numerous demos. Only one I ever posted a SINGLE complaint about is the RS1. I did not expect any of them to be perfect. The problem with the RS1 is not that it is performing to the maximum of the available hardware and I am expecting too much but rather it is being deliberately made to be inaccurate. This is not a problem of technology but rather company philosophy. My future purchases will be from companies whose philosophy is to make products that are as accurate as possible at the price point. I see rainbows but find that more acceptable, minor in fact, compared to the color issue.The discussion of the RS1 is unavoidable as it has the worst performance on the chart.

I colour grade and match 35mm motion picture imagery for a living.
I spend most of my days sat in front of displays calibrated to a far higher standard than most professional displays let alone consumer.

I have yet to be bothered by the oversaturation on the HD1/RS1 and that includes viewing films on it I've worked on. I'm actually more concerned about oversaturated reds on the barco dp100.

I'm very familiar with viewing JVC HD10ks that are again calibrated to a very high level and I would not swap one of them for my HD1.

I colour grade and match 35mm motion picture imagery for a living.
I spend most of my days sat in front of displays calibrated to a far higher standard than most professional displays let alone consumer.

I have yet to be bothered by the oversaturation on the HD1/RS1 and that includes viewing films on it I've worked on. .
Do you produce oversaturated material in your professional capacity? In general do you find oversaturation pleasing?

I have yet to be bothered by the oversaturation on the HD1/RS1 and that includes viewing films on it I've worked on.
Being bothered by it and recognizing the problem are two different things. Do you see the oversaturation and just let it go or do you not see it at all?

I have logged a significant amount of time in recording studios as a professional musician and am well aware of the audio processing that takes place there and how much of the natural sound of the instruments is modified, but that doesn't mean that I am willing to accept anything other than highly accurate speakers in my personal system. The work I do in my professional capacity has very little to do with what I do as a hobbyist.
I'm actually more concerned about oversaturated reds on the barco dp100.
They are worse than the oversaturated reds in the RS-1? Then those are some pretty horrible reds you must be seeing from the Barco, as the reds in the RS-1 are already significantly oversaturated, though not as bad as green.

If you want to see a couple of examples of how the color accuracy affects the enjoyment of your video, try watching the US television show CSI Miami and the HD-DVD version of Superman Returns (2 examples off of the top of my head) on both the RS-1 and a color accurate display. The colors in CSI are oversaturated and colorized to start off, and when they are reproduced on an oversaturated display they look just horrible, but the same show displayed on a color accurate display looks incredible. The transfer of SR is not he best one around - on the RS-1 it looks pretty much terrible with the actors faces looking way off in the flesh tones in certain scenes, but on a color accurate display the movie actually looks pretty decent - much better than on the RS-1.

The better the quality of the source material, the less likely you will be bothered by the oversaturation, but as soon as the source material is less than pristine, the more the oversaturation of the RS-1 will rear its ugly head. Color accurate displays look better over a much wider variety of source material.

Do you produce oversaturated material in your professional capacity? In general do you find oversaturation pleasing?


Yes I love creating oversaturated imagery . In fact even if the director doesn't want me to I wait until they leave the room and sneak some saturation in there just for the hell of it. Then I steal his car keys and give his missus a good seeing to just to make sure.

I have yet to be bothered by the oversaturation on the HD1/RS1 and that includes viewing films on it I've worked on. I'm actually more concerned about oversaturated reds on the barco dp100.

The Barco DP100 primaries can be matched to Rec 709, Rec 601, or any standard within the large gamut to an accuracy of +/- .001 of the required coordinates. In addition to this, the secondaries can be shifted independent of the primaries. Do you have the post production version of the DCine Communicator control software? It has a very extensive set of color adjustment settings.

Being bothered by it and recognizing the problem are two different things. Do you see the oversaturation and just let it go or do you not see it at all?

I have logged a significant amount of time in recording studios as a professional .

The facts of the matter:

I am very familiar with issues concerning colour accuracy and standards. I can usually differentiate how far off D.65 a given display is and I can usually tell pretty accurately in what way its deviating.

Part of my job involves colour matching and grading shots and scenes on large budget motion picture films. I have a not insignificant level of experience and knowledge regarding colour standards but unlike a fair few number of technically adroit people I'm also reasonably well regarded for my subjective colour appraisal skills amongst others but I'll digress.

I have owned and calibrated many displays over the years. in fact I've probably been doing it long before it came to the attention of most enthusiasts , certainly before dvd came out.

I currently own and have calibrated and metered an HD1. I am well aware that it meter's as oversaturated in green and less so in red (its actually very similar to the panasonic plasma PHD8 in the same room in this regard interestingly enough).

I like to think of myself as being a somewhat discerning viewer and I have yet to find any instance of the innaccurate oversaturated primaries of the HD1 resulting in what is to me an objectionable exhibition.

If any of you find this fact irksome I'd appreciate it if you didn't resort to cheap insinuation as to my level of understanding , optical ability or experience which I have just qualified for you.

The Barco DP100 primaries can be matched to Rec 709, Rec 601, or any standard within the large gamut to an accuracy of +/- .001 of the required coordinates. In addition to this, the secondaries can be shifted independent of the primaries. Do you have the post production version of the DCine Communicator control software? It has a very extensive set of color adjustment settings.


I was actually referring to a film gamut with regard to DP100. Its calibrated with regard to Kodak film response models that are not available to anyone outside of Kodak. With the exception of the occasional holes in the gamut relative to film its very nice so you shouldn't feel the need to defend it. I'm sure its frankly a piece of cake when it comes to matching video standards.

The If any of you find this fact irksome I'd appreciate it if you didn't resort to cheap insinuation as to my level of understanding , optical ability or experience which I have just qualified for you.
Not irksome at all. Baffled is a more accurate description. My friends like loud boomy bass. I tell them it's too loud and boomy but they don't care. They like it :) . Many times, the fellows have laughed at how I could pay so much for speakers and yet another friends speakers produce way more bass. I am just trying to ascertain if that sort of thing is what is going on here. The colors are not accurate and your credential do not change that. If you have a personal preference for inaccuracy I have no problem with that, MANY do. Just don't tout your credentials to valid your preferences for oversaturated material.

. If you have a personal preference for inaccuracy I have no problem with that, MANY do. Just don't tout your credentials to valid your preferences for oversaturated material.

You would prefer that I was untruthful and dishonest about my opinion of the HD1 in light of the technical data?

How curious...

I wasn't actually validating my opinion . I was rebutting your and other's opinion that anyone not bothered by the oversaturation of the primaries on the HD1 must be a less than discerning viewer.

I have neither denied that the oversaturated primaries exist nor specifically defended the HD1: again in rebuttal of the assertion made in this thread that RS1/HD1 owners are blindly defensive of the unit.

I have made two points: I am a discerning viewer by anyone's standards and I do not find the oversaturated primaries on the HD1 problematic.

We can't take Mr. D serious, he's from the UK where they spell color... colour. ;)
Just kiddin'.

Yes I love creating oversaturated imagery . In fact even if the director doesn't want me to I wait until they leave the room and sneak some saturation in there just for the hell of it. Then I steal his car keys and give his missus a good seeing to just to make sure.


LOL, :)

That addressed the tone of the question, but what about the actual good question part.

Do you see them and it doesn't bother you or you don't see them? I am seriously interested in that.

Just because someone knows exactly what chocolate is doesn't mean that they like it. I know people who eat chips ahoy cookies and like them, even though they know the chocolate in them is not the best.

Best Regards,
Doug

We can't take Mr. D serious, he's from the UK where they spell color... colour. ;)
Just kiddin'.

That's okay we don't take you guys seriously for a lot more reasons than just your bad spelling. :D

the unit.

I have made two points: I am a discerning viewer by anyone's standards and I do not find the oversaturated primaries on the HD1 problematic.
Not even close to making those points. By anyone's standards? No, not even the standards of many on this thread. Certainly well below even my wife's who does not know the first thing about projectors but is free to look out the window at the grass and realize it does not glow ;). Hey if you like it I'm fine with that. You might as well be a regular janitor is you do not adhere to standards in your work.

If any of you find this fact irksome I'd appreciate it if you didn't resort to cheap insinuation as to my level of understanding , optical ability or experience which I have just qualified for you.
I wasn't insinuating anything at all and was merely asking a legitimate question. How was I supposed to know your level of competence and understanding?

I also gave you two examples where the oversaturated primaries of the RS-1 are not only noticeable, but downright "in your face". Have you examined either of these sources? Are you telling me that in all of your viewing that the oversaturated primaries has not bothered you at all (since I now fully understand that you can see them)? If your answer is yes to both questions then I have to wonder if we are looking at the same display device, because even a casual comparison to a color accurate display will reveal significant differences in color rendition.

I'm not trying to be insulting, but am just rather amazed that you have no problem with the obviously oversaturated colors - either that or our displays are very different and your primaries, for whatever reason, are not anywhere near as oversaturated as mine.

LOL, :)

That addressed the tone of the question, but what about the actual good question part.

Do you see them and it doesn't bother you or you don't see them? I am seriously interested in that.


Well that's one of those rose by any other name situations. I don't watch it and conciously think the colours are out of whack but I'll live with it kind of thing. I don't watch it and remark how oversaturated it is relative to a more accurate HD10k for example.

I have tried to find instances where the oversaturation is an obvious negative and I haven't managed it. I occasionally find some colours a bit whacky but its not something I'd describe as an oversaturation issue ( cyan has a touch too much blue in it for my liking ... I actually find this more objectionable than any of the other limitations commonly leveled at the HD1).

I don't like watching SD on the HD1 all that much as it shows it up something rotten: dvd upscaled from an HTPC with ffdshow dabbling can look alright... if it was a decent mastering.

I have some suspicion that the metered oversaturation maybe belies some more convoluted mapping from rec709 to something like dcinema as the hd1 does seem to meter a lot higher than it actually resolves at least to my eyes and maybe in comparisson to other displays that meter as less oversaturated but visually resolve as a consistenly more dramatic than the hd1 does. Certainly an HS20 I owned in the past looked more oversaturated despite metering as closer to the green aim ( albeit a tad).

I also gave you two examples where the oversaturated primaries of the RS-1 are not only noticeable, but downright "in your face".

I've watched SR hd-dvd on it. I didn't find the HD1 particularly offensive when it came to portraying the somewhat stylised colour look of the film. I certainly didn't jump on stuff for looking oversaturated in green or red.

My only source of CSI is SD digital broadcasts which have much more problems on the HD1 than just the colour. However I'd describe them as looking neon ...but not particularly any more agressivley than many a display.

I've viewed V for Vendetta and Miami Vice on a barco dp100 and shortly afterwards on the HD1 using the same HD-DVD player (tosh A1) and I didn't really find the HD1 objectionable with regard to red/green saturation in comparison to the DP100.

Just a thought:
I've read many posts by respected members here that own, or have reviewed the subject RS-1, and have complained about oversaturation of green and red primaries.
I have read just as many posts that have judged the colors as perfect. More than one respected reviewer has made it his reference machine.
Is it possible that we are seeing a great deal of varience in the projectors that are being received? Many have received machines that are overly loud. Some claim that the sound is not much more than a whisper.
I have not yet received my JVC, but I understand that its on its way. I can assure you that if I find the machine that I recieve to be objectionable, it will be returned.
On the other hand, I will surely post my impressions if it does not show the flaws as indicated in this thread.
Tony

Just a thought:
I've read many posts by respected members here that own, or have reviewed the subject RS-1, and have complained about oversaturation of green and red primaries.
I have read just as many posts that have judged the colors as perfect. More than one respected reviewer has made it his reference machine.
Is it possible that we are seeing a great deal of varience in the projectors that are being received?
It's possible. I think it's more likely a psychological issue. Each of us have different priorities and preferences as well as thresholds for imperfections. As humans we often want to flatter ourselves that our priorities, preferences and thresholds are the right ones.

One person may see a flaw and be bothered by it, but understand that others may not be. Another person sees the flaw and is bothered by it and thinks that anyone that is not bothered by it must not know what a good image is. And a third person may see the flaw and fully recognize it but for what ever reason not be bothered by it. And the last person may be blissfully unaware altogether.

These same discussions have been taking place verbatim in the CRT forum for years. Some prefer the black level of a CRT above all else but understand that others may have different priorities. But there's another group that endlessly flatter themselves that "anyone willing to live with grey blacks doesn't know what a good image is". And so on.

I also think that some of our "preferences" are wired pretty deeply into us. I see this all the time with people. Some people are not even aware of a 4:3 image being stretched to fill a 16:9 screen. Not only doesn't it bother them, but they don't even notice it. Yet they will call up and ask me why color is good on one television station and not on another.

I had another customer who could not tell the difference between HD and SD and would ask me "is this HD" as I was changing channels, but he would call me asking me how to change the aspect ratio because it drove him nuts watching 4:3 news stretched to 16:9.

I have owned several projectors now. Nothing has bothered me as much as the JVC colors. Sorry but I am not one that you can just stick in the "picky" category. I have been on the forum since 2000 and have owned projectors for 4 of those years and have been evaluating them since 1999 with numerous demos. Only one I ever posted a SINGLE complaint about is the RS1. I did not expect any of them to be perfect. The problem with the RS1 is not that it is performing to the maximum of the available hardware and I am expecting too much but rather it is being deliberately made to be inaccurate. This is not a problem of technology but rather company philosophy. My future purchases will be from companies whose philosophy is to make products that are as accurate as possible at the price point. I see rainbows but find that more acceptable, minor in fact, compared to the color issue.The discussion of the RS1 is unavoidable as it has the worst performance on the chart.

Ah, okay I stand corrected. I thought that you had said that most of your time was spent with audio gear and not video gear. I can understand people's gripe about the oversaturated colors. I see it too but once the saturation adjustment is turned down it just doesn't bother me that much (except for the occasional green hue).

I've only seen the so-called glowing grass once and it was on "Lost". Bright sunshine seem to make the tall grass look somewhat neon-ish. I then replayed the same scene on my Panny Plasma and the grass looked kind of neon-ish on it as well but not as bright ;). Otherwise, my picture looks excellent color-wise and I watch quite a few B&W movies too and there are no shading issues or other color anomalies - they look like B&W films should!
My $0.02

Great post, QQQ!

I used to be very tolerant of color inaccuracy, but my tastes have changed. After spending quite some time with a color accurate display I now find myself particularly bothered by inaccuracy where I saw it and let it pass previously. the RS-1 really does a lot of things well, so it is natural to complain about its greatest weakness, and presently color accuracy is it. If it had poor contrast or a soft picture, then that would be the focus of my complaints, but the RS-1 is quite strong in those areas. I will be anxious to see what JVC decides to do with its next generation projector - Will they ignore the vocal minority and leave the colors oversaturated, will they correct the primaries, or will they provide a full CMS to allow the user to control color as he sees fit?

Great post, QQQ!

I used to be very tolerant of color inaccuracy, but my tastes have changed. After spending quite some time with a color accurate display I now find myself particularly bothered by inaccuracy where I saw it and let it pass previously.
Great point, SOOO MUCH of what we find acceptable and/or tolerable also has to do with what we have experienced. I find this again and again with my own customers. I even find that people who previously mocked the necessity of something suddenly can't live without it when they have it.

In my own business each time I achieve a higher level of performance what was previously acceptable is no longer so. I think the RS! is a FANTASTIC projector but it makes perfect sense to me that if you experience a projector with much greater color accuracy the RS1 might become bothersome to watch in comparison.

I colour grade and match 35mm motion picture imagery for a living.
I spend most of my days sat in front of displays calibrated to a far higher standard than most professional displays let alone consumer.

I have yet to be bothered by the oversaturation on the HD1/RS1 and that includes viewing films on it I've worked on. I'm actually more concerned about oversaturated reds on the barco dp100.

I'm very familiar with viewing JVC HD10ks that are again calibrated to a very high level and I would not swap one of them for my HD1.


good to have people like you here ! :) . i also tested the HD10K and it had great colorimetry with accurate skin tones but indeed the HD1 blows it away in terms of contrast and isn't that far in colorimetry especially with soft 061 and some calibration. i get very nice skin tones.
imho the problem is in the movies, recently. nuts crazy colorimetry (ghost rider (it varies!, crazy), the island, chevaliers du ciel etc etc. or even pirates 2 and 3
tons of greens here, or oranges and yellows there, it's crazy ! i hate it.
throw that at the JVC or any pj and you get the same unatural colorimetry. same for MI3., blood diamonds, lord of war etc. blown out whites etc.

this "style" must cease :)

What is sad about this thread is it is not about the JVC at all. What is even sadder - had JVC done perfect primaries which they are very capable of doing rather than try to outdo Sony colorfulness - all of the exact same people who bought it would be talking about how they cannot watch the other displays because the color sucks....instead of pretending it is not a problem. Pretending it is not a problem just means that JVC has no motivation to update the firmware to give you the option of fixing it - and at least checking it out for a few weeks to see if you have beeen deluded.

Saw an interesting article in the NYT this morning about LED and laser illumination, and about how super-accurate the colors will be with them. Though they were mainly focused on rptv's, I presume that this will also make its way into projectors at some point, and then perhaps 'perfect colors' will be routine.

LED/lasers make the problem worse not better - the are capable of near perfect wavelength colors - but video standards are nowhere near that perfect. For accurate colors for video - that means it is even more critical that LED/lasers invest in CMS systems and fully support extended gamut video sources possible with HDMI1.3 (though we have no media source on the books that supports it)

What is sad about this thread is it is not about the JVC at all. What is even sadder - had JVC done perfect primaries which they are very capable of doing rather than try to outdo Sony colorfulness - all of the exact same people who bought it would be talking about how they cannot watch the other displays because the color sucks....instead of pretending it is not a problem. Pretending it is not a problem just means that JVC has no motivation to update the firmware to give you the option of fixing it - and at least checking it out for a few weeks to see if you have beeen deluded.Kraz, I mostly agree with this with one caveat. I am not quite ready to assume that everyone who says that they aren't bothered by inaccurate color are deluding themselves.

What this and other threads have lead me to believe is that perception of color inaccuracies may be a lot more like rainbow artifacts in 1-chip DLPs than I would have ever imagined.

some people are very sensitive to it and extremely bothered by it when they see it
some people see it, but are not terribly sensitive to it and are not bothered when they see it
some people don't seem to see it at all

The only real difference between perception of color inaccuracy and the RBE is:

some people who see it actually seem to PREFER it
the type and precise amount of color inaccuracy is easily measurable and in some cases fixable by calibration

My experience and training has led me to abhor color inaccuracy. I am especially irked by it when it is not the result of an engineering problem at a given price point, but rather by a deliberate decision to create errors that appeal to a mass audience. But I have also come to the conclusion that's it's unreasonable to expect everyone to share my preferences in this regard.

Tom,

If I am not mistaken you calibrated an RS1 and C2 for another forum member. How close to accurate were you able to get his RS1, with the C2?

Was the image still over-saturated? Or were you able to tame it down, at the expense of accuracy? What I am wondering if you were still able to make it a pleasing, good looking by your client's standards, although inaccurate, image?

I was very curious about what you and your client were commenting about the RS1 and C2 combo so I was shifting through the RS1 calibration thread. I am still looking for yours, but here is some of what Bob had to say, at least before he knew better:

Bingo!!

I finally got a picture that blew me away! Let me explain:

First of all, for those who don't know, my original unit was defective with an abnormal amount of MC combined with unusually low lumens and some cyanish blotches in the mid IREs. Jason and AVS have been wonderful in contacting JVC directly to get me a replacement ASAP.

So until the new unit arrived, I didn't see much reason to futz with the old unit. The new unit has MUCH better convergence (less than 1/2 pixel anywhere on the screen), higher lumens, and no cyanish splotches. So this weekend was the time to start with some serious measuring and tweaking.

The picture quality of a properly working unit was noticeably better, but as you can see from my measurements, there was still some work to be done. Well, once I started tweaking the Crystalio 2's saturation control, the colors appeared considerably more accurate, but equally (if not more) important was to tweak up the low gamma. Since the C2 has very extensive gamma controls, it was a simple matter of using the RS-1's gamma C and then tweaking the low output gamma a few notches on the C2.

Whoa, you won't believe the difference this made! Not only did it clean up the low level detail, but for some reason it also added a considerable amount of 3D punch to the picture in all APL scenes, not just the dark ones.

I am very happy to report that the combination of the RS-1 with the Crystalio 2 has now blown me away and provided that "wow" factor I was seeking. This combination easily presents the best image quality I have ever seen...PERIOD!


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=820233&page=3&pp=30 post 88

I wouldn't worry about it. I am just one of those ultra picky people. Don't forget that I have been watching a world class 1080p machine for over a year, so it takes a real lot to impress me. Unless you have been watching the same, I think you will be very impressed with the RS-1's performance, as even without the C2 I have mentioned several times that I still consider it a better projector overall than my Ruby, and that alone is saying a lot.



same thread, post #94

Please keep in my where I am coming from. Before you start worrying about all of this, remember that I have just spent over a year watching a finely tweaked and tuned world class 1080p machine, so my expectations and what it takes to please me are pretty darned high and my complaints would probably be dismissed by a large number of people as being "overly picky". Most people who see the RS-1 even without the C2 connected to it will be very impressed just as it is. But if you want to see the best picture you're likely to see for the next year, you'll just have to come over to my place to see it...


post 105

Was it Harry Brandt's RS1 that you calibrated, Tom? I couldnt find your posts in that thread, its probably in the RS1 owners thread (and Ive got a headache from looking through a bunch of "RS1 settings" posts. 8(

This combination easily presents the best image quality I have ever seen...PERIOD!
Thanks for digging up the one quote that I have regretted making (and have been taken to task for in another thread), though now that I read the exact quote and going by the letter of the law I am not guilty of perjury. At the time that I wrote that line, it was the finest image I had ever seen (thus no perjury), but since then I have seen better images. The guilt that I admitted earlier is in the overzealousness in the tone of the post. I really wasn't as excited as it sounds and was just making a big deal out of it to please the RS-1 fans and get Reincarnate off of my back.

I would never make such a statement about the RS-1 these days, as I prefer a color accurate display and the "bandaid" effect of the Crystalio 2 has not proven sufficient to correct the problem over the long run.

So Rob, I am now open for cross examination...:rolleyes:

As I was looking for those posts I came accross posts from knowledgable/ISF folks and owners/observers who commented on the colors being pleasing/appealing and not exactly accurate at the same time. Interesting to read again, months later, in light of a renewed, sometimes revisionistic, look at color and the RS1.

I think this goes to show that even to calibrators and color "knowledgable" enthusiasts pinpoint color accuracy is not necessary for pleasing/beautiful images. A lot of the most potentially critical folks who have posted on the RS1 dont seem to let the lack of the CMS dissuade them from heaping praise on it's picture quality.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=813550&page=10&pp=30

Quotes from Fugueness, post 294:

The color is pretty darn good. It matches the Samsung's color performance as far as I'm concerned, and surpasses it in all other aspects. I ran through a few of my photographs to check the color and they were just about spot-on. Compared to the Pearl, no contest!


Quote from CamMan about RS1's color, post 298.

Tom,
Correct. I did a full up calibration with the CA-6X tonight. The x-y of primaries are off a bit, particularly green (which may be the bug Greg found), Red is almost perfect, blue is off just a little. Modest tweaks were made to User 1 color temp, and this put the pj very close to D65. I polished it off on the Lumagen, and also achieved a very smooth 2.2 gamma curve. Despite the primaries lack of accuracy, I look at all this like I do from behind the camera. It is not all engineering; there is an interpretive level. I'll be happy to have those primaries be off a bit if the pj can otherwise deliver such a gorgeous picture in which colors have yet to look wrong. By the book they may be off a bit, but one has to have perspective about this. It's picture (certainly when calibrated as well as possible) is bloody gorgeous regardless of where those primaries are. Look at different film stocks. Even within a manufacturer's pallette, stocks can look very different. Kodak stocks and Fuji stocks have very different primaries in their interpretation of color. One might be chosen for this and that reason, and some might very much dislike one or another, but as a viewer of the film, I can accept that Fuji is going to make the green grass really pop, and enjoy the beauty just the same.

There is great merit in getting the firmware fix for Greg's problem, and to encourage manufacturers to keep working towards perfection, but there is little reason to let something like these indiocyncracies that don't seem to be detrimental get in the way of enjoying the projector's gorgeous images.

As a post script, I should add that all my work and observastions for the calibration were done projecting on an SmX screen. The bit of gain is has is a big help, too.


JDEATON, post 308:

When it finally arrived, the RS-1 box had a nasty tear clear through one side but the internal packing was intact. Before we hung the RS-1 we fired up the BenQ one last time and watched a few scenes from Serenity just to have the BenQ look fresh in our mind prior to viewing the JVC. After a run to Home Depot for those M5 30mm machine screws for Adam’s spider mount, the JVC went up with out a problem. (My guess is the dedicated Chief mount will have the correct screws.) We switched the HD-A1 and the PS3 from 720 to 1080 and put in “Get Grey”. Color and tint when viewed through the blue filter were perfect with no adjustment. Brightness and contrast likewise although we did adjust one or the other by one click. Uniformity on a 100 IRE white screen looked very good to me. Convergence as Adam said was maybe a half a pixel off on red, but an absolute non issue when viewing material. Ever so slightly brighter corners did exist at 0 IRE but were so subtle that for me it is of no concern. Sharpness was excellent. Finally it was time to view some material. Serenity went in again and WOW! Outer space was blacker with more and brighter stars then on the BenQ. Jaggies detected on the BenQ in certain scenes were gone. The picture was much brighter, and most impressive was the depth of field displayed by the JVC. I didn’t think the 3D quality provided by a good DLP could be improved upon but I think it has been in this case. Fade to black scenes, as has been noted are startling. It really does take your eyes a few seconds to adjust to the fact that there is still some light on the screen. Shadow detail, color, and flesh tones on the HD DVD King Kong were in my mind perfect; neither over nor under saturated with plenty of brightness; an absolutely satisfying experience. I wouldn’t change a thing.
My only regret is I don’t think I’ll be standing in Adam’s driveway waiting on the delivery of a new projector for at least a few years. It sure has been fun.
Thanks Adam.

To be fair to Tom, he was already preaching CMS and color accuracy at that time. His story really hasnt changed as referenced by a few folks. Post 313:

Quote:
Originally Posted by units
Ok Tom......yes, the Sharp has the extremely effective and wonderful CMS system, and perfectly accurate colors via the CMS system have tremendous value, and no, the JVC does not have a CMS system....we get it....really.

Must you enter all of these threads and harp on the color deficiencies of these other pj's? Or should I go over to the Sharp owner's thread and begin posting about rainbows, lackluster light output in high contrast mode, or other such things that would provide no productive service to the persons reading that thread?

You're a fanboy for your projector...no shame in that. I'm a fanboy for the RS1. The only problem is that we're both doing it in the RS1 threads....

And HoustonHoyaFan, I'm not even going to mount my typical RS1 fanclown defense system against you...I truly believe you just enjoy stiring the pot, whatever thread it may be...


Amen brother, amen.

fugueness and camman in agreement on the (not so) importance of pinpoint color accuracy towards picture quality, post 341:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man
It is not all engineering; there is an interpretive level. I'll be happy to have those primaries be off a bit if the pj can otherwise deliver such a gorgeous picture in which colors have yet to look wrong. By the book they may be off a bit, but one has to have perspective about this. It's picture (certainly when calibrated as well as possible) is bloody gorgeous regardless of where those primaries are. Look at different film stocks. Even within a manufacturer's pallette, stocks can look very different. Kodak stocks and Fuji stocks have very different primaries in their interpretation of color. One might be chosen for this and that reason, and some might very much dislike one or another, but as a viewer of the film, I can accept that Fuji is going to make the green grass really pop, and enjoy the beauty just the same.



Well said, and I agree completely. The amount of color is just as important or even more important than the color of color. I use both Kodak and Fuji, but there are always going to be people who swear by Fuji and those who champion Kodak. It comes down to personal preference. Van Gogh didn't use calibrated primaries.

Mark Petersons take on color,
post 384:

Any subjective review of the actual PQ?



It's fantastic. I'm really happy with it. Colors are a little oversaturated but not in a bad way. It hasn't been D65 calibrated yet but to my eyes it looks really good. Very vibrant, great 3d. I have to agree with Cam Man that this is the most filmlike projector I've ever seen. It doesn't seem digital in any way. Picture the best 70mm movie you've seen in the theater and this exceeds it on a 110" screen. I'm a resolution hound and I can see fine detail on this that the earlier JVC panels used to hide. The depth in dark scenes is outstanding and this was my biggest reason for upgrading.

Okay I'm going back to watch some more stuff



From Wet1, his first impressions, ive quoted his specifics on color. Post 497:

Color Representation. The RS1 was better than the HD1000U in this regard (as it should be in just about every other regard). With that said, I was a little let down here as well with the RS1. I completely expected the RS1 to vastly trump the HD1000U colors. Surprisingly, based on the limited time I spent viewing, I didn't see much of a difference between the two PJs. What I did notice was that the RS1 was able to reproduce greens more accurately than the HD1000U and also didn't have the yellow/green highlighting problem the HD1000U has (which is w/o a doubt my biggest grip with the HD1000U). I need to spend more time with the RS1 to further evaluate color reproduction, but so far I'm only going to say that it's very good, but I'll refrain from saying it's excellent at this point.



Upnorth, post 568:

Color excellent, black level excellent, contrast excellent, sharpness excellent and brightness excellent. I am projecting onto a 100" grey screen from about 10'3" with very little of the horizontal and vertical lens shift used.

I will post a full review with pics and calibration results on my site in a couple of weeks. However I am in no hurry, as I want to calibrate it and get to know it and enjoy it more first before the review.



LylePdx referencing oversaturated colors, right out of the box. Post 570:

I've had mine running for only a couple of hours with no attempt yet to make any adjustments.

Initial impression is it's very bright on my 128x72 hi power. I was able to have full lights on and still got a very watchable picture. Colors seem too saturated out of the box. The resolution is amazing. The smell as others have mentioned is a bit much. The fan noise in normal lamp is a complete non-issue. Comparatively the Virtuoso is a lawn mower.

The 3D effect varies scene to scene and does not seem as good as from my Virtuoso with all lights off of course. I hope this is a function of not having it dialed in yet. I am going to move it to the long end of the throw to reduce the brightness and improve the on/off contrast and ansi contrast per Jason's review findings. Unfortunately I have a client coming over so that will have to wait.

LovingDVD (Ric), critical of JVC for the omission of the CMS, his opinion on the PQ (despite the lack of CMS). Post 576:

In summary, I will say for now that I am WOWED by this projector. That being said, it definitely has its flaws and they are not all minor - but this too is subjective (and I'm not referring to fact that my lumens are below what's expected - still trying to get a handle on that). More to come...

MrLittleJeans, post 577:

Colors are amazing. I've never seen HD like this before.


dfrey commenting on oversaturation out of the box, post 636:

Colors are a little oversaturated OTB, but hopefully can get dialed in this weekend.


Strangely enough, Wet1, elaborating on colors after more time with the PJ.Liking the picture but not knowing about the accuracy (ignorance is bliss at work 8) ) Post 781:

I've spent some more time with the PJ now and I'd like to give a quick update regarding my first impressions comments.

Color Accuracy. The RS1 is quite accurate with its OOTB settings. I've made minor contrast, brightness, and sharpness adjustments but I've yet to master the color adjustments. I'm thrilled with the colors but they are certainly over saturated and I'm yet to figure out how to properly correct this. I've found turning the "color" down to -5 gives a much better (less saturated) picture, but I don't know what this is doing to the overall accuracy... any ideas guys? I tried to snap some screen shots from both PJs, but the pics do not accurately represent what I'm seeing so I'm not going to bother posting them.


I better stop there. It does go on, though, for another 100 pages or so.

Bob,
You're not the only one who was fooled by both the hype and the initial wow factor. I was too. But after really critically watching all types of material, you start to see the Emperor has no clothes.

Well, you know Bob, if this were a court of law, ignorance would not be a valid defense. 8)

Bob,
You're not the only one who was fooled by both the hype and the initial wow factor. I was too. But after really critically watching all types of material, you start to see the Emperor has no clothes.



Is there a "wolf!" in there somewhere? 8)

Well, you know Bob, if this were a court of law, ignorance would not be a valid defense.
I haven't been charged with ignorance...I've been charged with perjury, and once I read the exact quote, I see that I did not lie, but as I admit, the tone of the post was misleading.
You're not the only one who was fooled by both the hype and the initial wow factor. I was too. But after really critically watching all types of material, you start to see the Emperor has no clothes.
Exactly...The initial wow factor causes one to overlook the color rendition, or at least blame the problem on the source or elsewhere. It is only after a significant amount of time when even more sources look just plain wrong that one realizes that the RS-1 has a nasty color "problem" (I used the quotes because it is not a problem for everyone, just the ones who are picky about accurate color).
What this and other threads have lead me to believe is that perception of color inaccuracies may be a lot more like rainbow artifacts in 1-chip DLPs than I would have ever imagined.

* some people are very sensitive to it and extremely bothered by it when they see it
* some people see it, but are not terribly sensitive to it and are not bothered when they see it
* some people don't seem to see it at all

The only real difference between perception of color inaccuracy and the RBE is:

* some people who see it actually seem to PREFER it
* the type and precise amount of color inaccuracy is easily measurable and in some cases fixable by calibration
That pretty much says it all, but I would like to add one other point - many people do not know what a truly accurate display device even looks like, as they think that by turning down to "color" control or other luminance control that they are somehow taming the oversaturation, and that simply is not the case. When you have properly saturated colors, the luminance levels are not lowered (like when using the color control), so the colors have plenty of pop and wow factor, just like the oversaturated colors do, but instead they are just deadly accurate and true to the source.

This is an area where a lot of people are living in ignorance (as opposed to denial), as they have never seen a properly calibrated color accurate display to understand how much punch and wow factor it has. And then there are people like Cam Man who is very familiar with color accurate displays but is simply not bothered by the inaccuracy of oversaturated colors.

I think Tom has this one pretty much nailed.

I haven't been charged with ignorance...I've been charged with perjury, and once I read the exact quote, I see that I did not lie, but as I admit, the tone of the post was misleading.

Fortunately for everyone who posts here, one cant perjure one's self unless one was giving testimony under oath. Anything anyone gives their word on here, misleading or not, will not get them in hot water in a true court of law, but might compromise them in the "Court of Public Opinion." 8)

I think Tom and QQQ had it mostly pinned down, Tom in that quote you quoted, in that other thread. I would only add that "flaw" appears to be subjective, in place of "color accuracy", and/as that many, if not a vast majoity of, people just arent "not bothered" by it but actually seem to prefer it.

LOL, Cat you must have one really boring job or have a strong vested interest in the success of this PJ!!! :D

Tom,

If I am not mistaken you calibrated an RS1 and C2 for another forum member. How close to accurate were you able to get his RS1, with the C2?

Was the image still over-saturated? Or were you able to tame it down, at the expense of accuracy? What I am wondering if you were still able to make it a pleasing, good looking by your client's standards, although inaccurate, image?Yes, I worked with Harry Brandt on his RS1/C2. The Crystalio really doesn't help at all, as Harry will be happy to tell you. You can reduce the saturation but only at the expense of simultaneously reducing the color brightness, which is one area in which the PJs color performance is fine out of the box.

There currently exists no external processor that effectively serves as a CMS for correcting this and other types of errors. The only function some external processors (Lumagen, Optoma) give you is a way to correct color decoding errors, but as I said this unit is fine in that regard and requires no correction.

Who me? What job? 8)

Heh heh. Neither really. To my wife's chagrin, lately, I just find myself defending truth, justice, and the American way, on these boards way too often. 8)

I was just curious to dig up what Tom and his client had to say about the RS1/C2 combo and ended up stumbling accross all those posts. I could have gone on for much longer, but unfortunately I dont have all day to find it. 8)

I guess color isn't everything. I wouldn't trade the RS1 for any of those projectors that appear to be better by that graph.

I would have to say the factory defaults are very enjoyable to me. If they were changed I would probably be disappointed. In fact I think we will see a trend in this direction as the average consumer is happier with it. My Plasma is way off but I like it too.

I want to echo what Mark Haflich said..."It's like those digital guys out there who loved their older bulb projectors despite their gray blacks. No big deal. Yadda Yadda. Then comes along a bulb with decent blacks, the RS1. Decent not not great. Oh. My God. Blacks are important. Gotta get you one.

Wait until the AVS masses see a good black bulb with accurate colors. Oh. My god. Gotta get you one. One doesn't appreciate accurate colors until you see them. But its OK. many who buy the RS1 will keep defending it into antiguity when it is surpased for the same money this fall."

I think he's absolutely right. While an incorrect picture with way off primaries and secondaries can still certainly be enjoyable and if people are fine with the inaccuracy, then OK. But to suggest that accurate color doesn't matter? Come on now. Accurate colors are generally believed by professionals who make film and calibrate displays for both the broadcast industry and home theatre types to be more important overall than resolution and contrast. Of course, we all know those two picture parameters are very important as well. But accurate color allows us to see the image more as real life and not a video reproduction.

Bob

Your experience is actually what would happen to most people - if they would just spend two weeks watching solely a properly calibrated display - they would realize they were wrong and cannot go back.

It is not about which PJ that is at all - it is just on AVS the best PJ they have ever seen - is the one they just bought.

Bob

Your experience is actually what would happen to most people - if they would just spend two weeks watching solely a properly calibrated display - they would realize they were wrong and cannot go back.

It is not about which PJ that is at all - it is just on AVS the best PJ they have ever seen - is the one they just bought.

That's a great point. There seems too quick a jump to declare something "the best" (see Sony Ruby, see Sony Pearl, see JVC RS1, etc.) and then attack anyone who suggests an alternative.....then those same people find the 'flavor of the month' inadequate for some reason (usually one brought to light on the forums) and look for the next 'best' thing. My views, which follow those who work professionally with video, are that in order, the picture priorities are 1) color accuaracy 1b) optical quality and quality of the light management system as part of the optical package 2) video processing quality 3) video reproducible dynamic range, ie-real or ANSI contrast, and then 4) resolution. For those who question resolution as number 4, keep in mind that a display that gets the first three right probably has very good resolution. Buying a chipset with 'x' number of pixels is the easy part for a manufacturer. Creating a video playback system that can adhere to standards is a different thing altogether. Whether or not a projector gets someone on a forum excited is not a reason to buy a projector. That can be a good starting point to see if it meets the criteria needed to reproduce video and film accurately.

Accurate colors are generally believed by professionals who make film and calibrate displays for both the broadcast industry and home theatre types to be more important overall than resolution and contrast. Of course, we all know those two picture parameters are very important as well. But accurate color allows us to see the image more as real life and not a video reproduction.

If you mean by the people who actually make a living calibrating the displays, then that makes sense, however, apparently, the masses who buy display devices rate their preferences differently.

If you mean by the people who actually make a living calibrating the displays, then that makes sense, however, apparently, the masses who buy display devices rate their preferences differently.

Now posts don't do tone well, so I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, but would you rate the opinion of someone who makes a living making video displays look their best whose very job it is to determine what makes a satisfying picture more valid?

OR....

A group of people who have bought a sub-$10K projector who say that color accuracy doesn't matter because they think it looks great as it is and don't mind that the color is no where near measurably accurate? And who have ZERO frame of reference for what a correct picture looks like (and remember that unlike audio which can be more subjective, there are video reproduction standards and a display either reproduces it or it doesn't) largely because "the masses" like their pictures to be brighter than sunrise on Mercury.

You are by implication placing yourself in the category of buyer who gave rise to big box retailers making blue pictures with wildly saturated color because "that's what people want."

If that is where you want to be and how you choose to define yourself, then that's fine. But to suggest that because "the masses" like inaccurate color and blue pictures with wacked out gray scales, then that opinion is somehow more right? That runs contrary to everything the videophile/enthusiast strives for, which is showing a lot more knowledge than the average joe who wouldn't know the difference between a DVD picture on a 27" TV and a first run print of 35mm film at a top movie theatre (who say things like 'least I can see the picture with my lights on!').

Arguing that ignorance is bliss is one thing. Arguing that video standards shouldn't matter ignores the facts that in real life the human eye sees color and light and shadow a particular way and video standards are there to recreate that human experience.

FWIW, the RS-1s that I've calibrated (all from the last mini-batch) have only been slightly oversaturated in red, nothing like what Tom's was. Mine is even lower than the coordinates posted here for the Ruby. My RS1 red: x=.656, y=.321 (Sorry, don't have "Y" handy). My green is about the same as Tom's results. As a result, I really have no problem with red oversaturation. Skin tones always look as intended. Measurements were taken with the Progressive Labs CA-6 probe and software. I'll just say that for me, the oversaturated green is not an issue and leave it at that.

As an aside, I don't know how many of you have translated the Cine4home review of the Panasonic AE1000, but it has similarly oversaturated greens and reds. However, putting aside it's CMS for a moment, it has one picture mode setting that gives you accurate colors.

This is what most of the picture modes look like (or worse):

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/PanasonicPTAE1000/Bild85.jpg

This is what the Color 1 mode looks like:

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/PanasonicPTAE1000/Bild84.jpg

While I realize that asking for a full CMS in the RS-1 is asking for the impossible, I would like to see JVC add a picture mode similar to the above for the RS-1. It should be something that could be done through a firmware update, don't you think?

Now posts don't do tone well, so I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, but would you rate the opinion of someone who makes a living making video displays look their best whose very job it is to determine what makes a satisfying picture more valid?


To me? Than mine? No, no I dont.

A group of people who have bought a sub-$10K projector who say that color accuracy doesn't matter because they think it looks great as it is and don't mind that the color is no where near measurably accurate? And who have ZERO frame of reference for what a correct picture looks like (and remember that unlike audio which can be more subjective, there are video reproduction standards and a display either reproduces it or it doesn't) largely because "the masses" like their pictures to be brighter than sunrise on Mercury.


This isnt a dictatorship and its not a democracy. Might, status, power, and more "educated" opinions dont make them more right than the way things actually are. Aside from the fact that there are NO wrong opinions on preferences for picture quality, some of these things are facts. Im certain that if manufacturers felt that an accurately color calibrated display was more appealing (and would sell more) than a pleasing saturated image that manufacturers would make/sell their displays with color accurate images.

There are professionals, and well versed hobbyists (probably much more well versed than you even claim to be and who have likely purchased quite a bit more as well), who are very familiar with color accurate displays who differ in opinion from you. You can check some of what they said in cut and pastes of their posts, which I referenced, in a post, above, on this thread.

You seem to want to argue that because you, and the generally accepted standards among display calibrators that you claim to stand for, say that it is so, despite the fact that the numbers say otherwise, it is so. Thats just not the case, Jack. 8)

My views, which follow those who work professionally with video, are that in order, the picture priorities are 1) color accuaracy 1b) optical quality and quality of the light management system as part of the optical package 2) video processing quality 3) video reproducible dynamic range, ie-real or ANSI contrast, and then 4) resolution. For those who question resolution as number 4, keep in mind that a display that gets the first three right probably has very good resolution. Buying a chipset with 'x' number of pixels is the easy part for a manufacturer. Creating a video playback system that can adhere to standards is a different thing altogether. Whether or not a projector gets someone on a forum excited is not a reason to buy a projector. That can be a good starting point to see if it meets the criteria needed to reproduce video and film accurately.

If that is where you want to be and how you choose to define yourself, then that's fine. But to suggest that because "the masses" like inaccurate color and blue pictures with wacked out gray scales, then that opinion is somehow more right?

Theres absolutely nothing wrong with believing what you want to believe about what criteria is important to video quality for you. Just dont make the mistake in assuming that it is more right to someone else than what they believe is important to them.

Do you let the opinions of video "professionals," like yourself, who work in a Blockbuster store, or let critic's reviews on the movie "300", influence the movies you like to rent or go to watch? Or do you already know which movies you want to watch?

That runs contrary to everything the videophile/enthusiast strives for, which is showing a lot more knowledge than the average joe who wouldn't know the difference between a DVD picture on a 27" TV and a first run print of 35mm film at a top movie theatre (who say things like 'least I can see the picture with my lights on!').

Is that right? 8)

While I realize that asking for a full CMS in the RS-1 is asking for the impossible, I would like to see JVC add a picture mode similar to the above for the RS-1. It should be something that could be done through a firmware update, don't you think?

That is exactly what I have always been hoping for with the RS-1.

Just give us another mode to select that has accurate primaries. Ship it in the oversaturated mode, but let us turn the oversaturation off.

Best Regards,
Doug

That is exactly what I have always been hoping for with the RS-1.

Just give us another mode to select that has accurate primaries. Ship it in the oversaturated mode, but let us turn the oversaturation off.

Best Regards,
Doug

Maybe a petition of RS-1 owners is in order?

To me? Than mine? No, no I dont.



This isnt a dictatorship and its not a democracy. Might, status, power, and more "educated" opinions dont make them more right than the way things actually are. Aside from the fact that there are NO wrong opinions on preferences for picture quality, some of these things are facts. Im certain that if manufacturers felt that an accurately color calibrated display was more appealing (and would sell more) than a pleasing saturated image that manufacturers would make/sell their displays with color accurate images.

There are professionals, and well versed hobbyists (probably much more well versed than you even claim to be and who have likely purchased quite a bit more as well), who are very familiar with color accurate displays who differ in opinion from you. You can check some of what they said in cut and pastes of their posts, which I referenced, in a post, above, on this thread.

You seem to want to argue that because you, and the generally accepted standards among display calibrators that you claim to stand for, say that it is so, despite the fact that the numbers say otherwise, it is so. Thats just not the case, Jack. 8)





Theres absolutely nothing wrong with believing what you want to believe about what criteria is important to video quality for you. Just dont make the mistake in assuming that it is more right to someone else than what they believe is important to them.

Do you let the opinions of video "professionals," like yourself, who work in a Blockbuster store, or let critic's reviews on the movie "300", influence the movies you like to rent or go to watch? Or do you already know which movies you want to watch?



Is that right? 8)

I don't really understand most of what you said, and like I said, these posts always sound more antagonistic than intended so apologies as it sounds like you took offense. Not my intention....

First, I do not work at Blockbuster (to quote Seinfeld, 'not that there's anything wrong with that'). I do work for a high-end specialty retailer/custom installer and we sell systems that are performance driven. Despite how it sounds like you interpreted my post, we most certainly do not insist people believe as we do. If they prefer the falsely bright display with oversaturated color because it has more pop, then that is valid and we will not recommend a calibration to adjust their display to standards. My point is that there ARE standards and they're not subjective. To say otherwise is like saying that the human eye doesn't see what it sees. Colors are colors and the way the human eye works is consistent (not speaking of nearsightedness/farsightedness and eye disease of course). Video standards exist to reproduce those human visual traits, simple as that. Most people resist a calibrated picture because it is too dim, which simply says that one must be careful themselves or work with a dealer who will sell them an appropriate display with sufficient light output to have the desired pop even after calibration IF a picture with an accurate gray scale, color, gamma tracking, etc. are important to them. If not, well that's fine too. Just so long as they know what they are getting (a bright picture) and not getting (a picture reproduced as it was made and produced by the program creator).

Cheers................Scott W.

If they prefer the falsely bright display with oversaturated color because it has more pop, then that is valid and we will not recommend a calibration to adjust their display to standards. My point is that there ARE standards and they're not subjective.
Correct, but with your post as with some others there is an implicit suggestion/spin that liking the RS1 = preferring an oversaturated or inaccurate image. Some people may indeed prefer an oversaturated image. but I don't believe I've seen anyone here express such a preference (and is someone did they are a very small minority). Instead many people simply are saying that what ever inaccuracies exist they find acceptable. And for those such as Bob or Tom, they can purchase a projector with different weaknesses (and strengths).

Let's rephrase/spin your statement towards the person that prefers the Sharp Z20000 due to its better color accuracy. "If they prefer poor contrast with gray blacks (after all the Sharp as much lower contrast than the JVC) that is their choice but there are standards and black should be black, not gray". Now interestingly I have read Bob say (I think) that he doesn't find the contrast difference between the Sharp and the JVC to be that great. Yet the fact is there IS a difference between them and a person who puts a very high value on having black look black is going to be bothered by the difference. Does that = "he prefers gray blacks and doesn't believe in standards"? I don't think so.

Your other posts came across as a little elitist in the "we know better for your (everyone's) own good" sense. If that was not your intent, then I certainly will accept your last post for what you seem to be saying.

I agree that there are accepted standards. I never disagreed with that. I just dont agree that you have to be in exact compliance, or in compliance at all, in order to have the best looking picture possible. I also disagree with the notion that the people who prefer an inaccurate (color) image havent seen an accurately colored one.

Just the first couple of pages on posts from that thread I noted up top should help point that out.

That part really is psychological, I think. If the image looks off tosomeone that is one thing, but if it looks good but you need measurements to confirm that its accurate (that is psychological.)

I believe most folks look at an image, and unless its noticeably off or (too) oversaturated, they dont even think about color. If the colors dont look unreal or unnatural they dont have to be accurate, for the image to be able to look good.

I understand, and accept, to some trained eyes, like those of Tom Huffman, that the slightest deviations could be noticeably detracting.

BTW, I wasnt meaning to imply that you worked at Blockbuster. I was just joking that some of them probably considered themselves as "video professionals" when it comes to movies.

When Triple Q is in a good mood, or maybe when he has been drinking, he does get right down to it. What he said.

Going off Q in regard to the RS1, I think most folks (obviously) feel that the color controls, while not able to get them pinpoint accurate, get them visibly accurate enough to look incredibly good (to the point that even professional calibrators say they dont look unnatural.)

If I see a poster complain about "neon greens," it seems to me its because they arent sure what toning down the color control does to the accuracy of the colors. You can easily tame the greens and reds by simply turning the color setting down, EASILY, and doing so in no way, shape, or form, makes the picture objectionable (apparently to most, ayways.) Well maybe except for making them less pinpoint accurate.

Hd7100 rocks!

That's why I have one.

So does my best friend.

I know the RS1 colours are boosted and it would be nice to have the ability to get them to correct saturation level but I enjoy the image this thing produces and the boosted colours do not bother me most of the time and the Pj's strengths right now make up for this issue.

Again, I would like there to be the ability to make them accurate but I will live with the boosted colours to have everything else the PJ does well.

I also agree JVC should have put in the option from the start rather than decide on what they felt was how the saturation should be. I also would say that while every unit will be over saturated I am sure there is variance from PJ to PJ so some who may not mind it may simpy have a unit that isn't as oversaturated as others who hate it.

Hd7100 rocks!

That's why I have one.

So does my best friend.I'm glad that someone remarked on this. It was the most surprising result to me from this sample of displays.

Video standards exist to reproduce those human visual traits, simple as that.
Cheers................Scott W.

I'd say its not quite as straight forward as that.

Video standards exist to ensure a standardised image that works within the mechanical limitations of a given imaging system AND resolves as an image that is regarded as pleasing to you average theoretical human observor. Beyond the mechanical limitations video standards ( indeed all colour standards) are notionally subjective. Its not really about mimicing real world imagery or the human visual system but producing something which works for most people , doesn't break the system ( although some of us would argue that video is broken anyway) and provides a set of standardisations for consistent workflow.

I always argue that calibration never produces anything other than benefits for the end user and I calibrate all my displays myself.

However I do not find the oversaturated primaries on the HD1 objectionable ( I also agree that red is not oversaturated enough to merit concern at least on my HD1).

As to why I'm not bothered by the oversaturation on the HD1 there may be a more simpler explaination. Video colour to me always looks "broken" or at least limited to a pretty significant level. So something that's essentially already limited (especially with regard to colour) isn't really going to scream at me if its a little more out of whack than it is already.

In their review of the RS1 cine4home hinted that there could be a software released that would allow for adjusting gamma distribution, like there is for the HD2K and HD10K, via the RS232 port. Are there any changes this is really going to come?

What could this mean in terms of CMS?

The way things are now, could a professional calibration help with the neon greens and orange reds?

Thks.

In their review of the RS1 cine4home hinted that there could be a software released that would allow for adjusting gamma distribution, like there is for the HD2K and HD10K, via the RS232 port. Are there any changes this is really going to come?

What could this mean in terms of CMS?

The way things are now, could a professional calibration help with the neon greens and orange reds?

Thks.

On my HD1 I see normal red and green for 99.1% of the time if watching HD or SD DVD content.
On very rare occasions there is green that looks a bit suspect that's all.
Red is red.

Do you really have these 'neon greens' and orange reds all the time?

Perhaps a slight case of tritanomaly?

Do you really have these 'neon greens' and orange reds all the time?


Yes, I do (but I have only had it for a week ....)

Just in case anyone does not understand the full implication of oversaturated colors, the effect is not limited to just the primaries. That is, on the RS-1 (for example) all three primaries measure to be oversaturated, green being the worst, red is moderate, and blue the least, but they are ALL oversaturated. This does not mean that the problem is limited to "neon greens" and "reddish flesh tones' and such. Assuming that the projector's grayscale is properly calibrated, the ONLY colors that will be accurate are gray since adjusting grayscale essentially means that we are mixing proportions of RGB in order to make gray correct. Looking at the CIE chart EVERY color radiating from gray (black to white) will be wrong also. The colors closest to the calibrated grays will be the most accurate and as you radiate away from the gray points the colors will deviate more and more. Though you may not recognize the inaccuracy of "blended" colors as easily as you can see off primaries, they are wrong also. The colors that are toward the green end of the spectrum will be the worst, while the colors at the blue end will be the best, but every color other than gray will be inaccurate.

Conversely when the three primaries are precisely located on their CIE coordinates AND the grayscale is adjusted properly, then ALL colors become extremely accurate assuming that the decoders are functioning properly. The overall difference in color rendition on a highly accurate display is most striking, as the eye is able to recognize (hopefully :) ) that ALL the colors look right now, not just the primaries. And when this is done with a CMS so that luminance is set for proper decoding then the result is absolutely stunning - bright, punchy colors with deadly accurate rendition...simply jaw dropping!

Bob, well said.

It just pulls you in when all the colors in the image are realistic. You never think once about the green being neon or skin-tones looking a bit orange etc. I would bet 90% of PJ ovners have never actually seen accurate colors. That's why so many are ok with their projectors.

It just pulls you in when all the colors in the image are realistic.
Even so, realistic and accurate do not necessarily go hand in hand. For example, some colors in The Aviator look unrealistic even if they are projected accurately.

Even so, realistic and accurate do not necessarily go hand in hand. For example, some colors in The Aviator look unrealistic even if they are projected accurately.I agree 100% with you. Also are movies like "Oh Brother, Where are thou" or TV shows like "CSI". But, when watching 'normal' programs or movies that are not stylized, that's what's distracting.

As I posted when I first had the RS1, I was sucked into watching the 'eye' candy of HD programming like Starwars, IceAge etc. It was after about a week of watching Discovery, PBS or 3 1/2-Men etc, that I couldn't watch without thinking, this is not right.

Again, I did not intend this as an RS1 thread. In any case, regarding the red point, I have three separate measurements on three different RS1s. Although the precise x,y points vary a little, the deviation from standard is remarkably similar.

I personally measured one unit using the GTM i1Pro spectroradiometer: 0.664, 0.335 dE 24.7

Home Theater Magazine (http://www.hometheatermag.com/frontprojectors/607proj/index5.html) measured their review sample using a Photo Research spectroradiometer: 0.667, 0.331 dE 24.4

Harry Brandt measured his RS1 using the GTM Display 2 colorimeter: 0.676, 0.321 dE 24.8

There may be some significant unit-to-unit variation with this PJ's red point, but I'm not seeing it. In fact, the 2 spectro readings are almost identical.

Just in case anyone does not understand the full implication of oversaturated colors, the effect is not limited to just the primaries. That is, on the RS-1 (for example) all three primaries measure to be oversaturated, green being the worst, red is moderate, and blue the least, but they are ALL oversaturated. This does not mean that the problem is limited to "neon greens" and "reddish flesh tones' and such. Assuming that the projector's grayscale is properly calibrated, the ONLY colors that will be accurate are gray since adjusting grayscale essentially means that we are mixing proportions of RGB in order to make gray correct. Looking at the CIE chart EVERY color radiating from gray (black to white) will be wrong also. The colors closest to the calibrated grays will be the most accurate and as you radiate away from the gray points the colors will deviate more and more. Though you may not recognize the inaccuracy of "blended" colors as easily as you can see off primaries, they are wrong also. The colors that are toward the green end of the spectrum will be the worst, while the colors at the blue end will be the best, but every color other than gray will be inaccurate.

Conversely when the three primaries are precisely located on their CIE coordinates AND the grayscale is adjusted properly, then ALL colors become extremely accurate assuming that the decoders are functioning properly. The overall difference in color rendition on a highly accurate display is most striking, as the eye is able to recognize (hopefully :) ) that ALL the colors look right now, not just the primaries. And when this is done with a CMS so that luminance is set for proper decoding then the result is absolutely stunning - bright, punchy colors with deadly accurate rendition...simply jaw dropping!

I think its worth adding, though, that physically oversaturated primaries in a display DO allow a great deal of flexibility if you also have some type of color management system to create effective primaries within that possible gamut. If you have physically undersaturated primaries, you can never do anything about that besides physically altering the display (not generally possible except with CRTs). If you don't have the CMS type capability to move the primaries around within the largest possible gamut, then you're stuck with a gamut that is too large, and that is inaccurate. But obviously if you DO have CMS capabilities, having a physical gamut that is too large is an asset, not a problem.

Looking at the CIE chart EVERY color radiating from gray (black to white) will be wrong also.

One thing to keep in mind though is that if every primary is oversaturated to the same degree the only thing that happens to each color is that the intensity is changed. The hue of the color remains accurate. If some primaries are under or oversaturated but not others or if the hue of the primary is off then the colorspace can be "skewed" so that both the hue and intensity of the colors is wrong. The degree of skew error doesn't show up when using average dE of the color primaries as has been done in this thread. With the exception of the green primary the colorspace of the RS-1 isn't as skewed as many other popular projectors including the Pearl.

Edit: One thing I also should add that probably wasn't clear in my post is that hue errors are much worse than intensity errors as far as color goes imho. I think a persons HVS is more tolerant of brightness/intensity discrepancies than if the color (hue) is completely wrong. There should be a way to express the degree of skewness of the colorspace and come up with a simple metric like average dE for it.

I think its worth adding, though, that physically oversaturated primaries in a display DO allow a great deal of flexibility if you also have some type of color management system to create effective primaries within that possible gamut. .

HTPC with a profiled LUT.
I think with vista mainly dealing with a VMR type video display pipeline the day is fast approaching when I'll be able to get a spyder2pro ICC profile to stick with all commonly used video apps. Even my free to air digital tuner software now offers a DX3D image pipeline option...shame it does a remap to PC levels and clips though as the scaling seems much improved over overlay.

One thing to keep in mind though is that if every primary is oversaturated to the same degree the only thing that happens to each color is that the intensity is changed.
Isn't that bad enough?

Also, I have yet to see any display where the oversaturation of the primaries was "to the same degree". In the few cases that I have examined, all three primaries were oversaturated to different degrees and required considerably different amounts of correction to get them right. That's why a single luminance control won't fix these types of problems and that separate RGB luminance, chrominance, and hue controls are necessary in order to obtain truly accurate results.
I think its worth adding, though, that physically oversaturated primaries in a display DO allow a great deal of flexibility if you also have some type of color management system to create effective primaries within that possible gamut.
Absolutely! The RS-1 would be a perfect candidate for a well implemented CMS...;)

Isn't that bad enough?

Also, I have yet to see any display where the oversaturation of the primaries was "to the same degree". In the few cases that I have examined, all three primaries were oversaturated to different degrees and required considerably different amounts of correction to get them right. That's why a single luminance control won't fix these types of problems and that separate RGB luminance, chrominance, and hue controls are necessary in order to obtain truly accurate results.


The point I'm making is that color error is more than just the degree of oversaturation of the primaries. For example the primaries of two display devices could have the same exact average dE error but one could be more objectionable than the other based on the differences of the skewness of the colorspace and also which colors are affected the most.

In fact the color of many older films are noticeably undersaturated and if a person with a CMS capable display device deliberately oversaturated the primaries (with no skew introduced) the end result might be truer to the original source (the actors, props, etc) than the film itself.

To my wife's chagrin, lately, I just find myself defending truth, justice, and the American way, on these boards way too often. 8)

I was just curious to dig up what Tom and his client had to say about the RS1/C2 combo and ended up stumbling accross all those posts. I could have gone on for much longer, but unfortunately I dont have all day to find it. 8)
Catdaddy67,
Thank you for carrying on the good fight. In my opinion there are also several ulterior motives at work. That is some cannot stand the fact that JVC dominates this marketplace with their breakthrough product. There is no doubt that if Sony had come out with the projector their tune would change completely.
Even since their has been color television in the 60's most people have cranked up the color. Same goes too for almost all digital products today, especially digital cameras.
The attack against the JVC is immense and many of the experts here get sucked into it. Take for instance the current thread "Why are we so focused on Contrast Ratio". After many made an excellent and lengthly case the threads author makes his confession:

"How many people pre-ordered the RS1 without ever seeing one based solely on the fact that it was reported to have a 15000:1 CR".

Everyone who replied wasted their time as the author became angry when presented with the facts that contrast ratio numbers were very important.
Be careful in what you ask for? And ask sincerely next time?

So my advice to everyone who cares truth, justice, and the American way, just give up the fight as one picture is worth a thousand words. The coming situation (being able to view the JVC at their local home theater store) will only make these flip-bloopers and out-of-work calibrater's even more frustrated. Technology will march-on whether they like it or not.

Let me know how the wife is doing:)

I thought you said the other day you were not going to post on the forum any more...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10865954#post10865954

...and 3 of 3 people promptly thanked you. I knew it was too good to be true.

Edit: I see it's now 4 out of 4.

I thought you said the other day you were not going to post on the forum any more...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10865954#post10865954

...and 3 of 3 people promptly thanked you. I knew it was too good to be true.

Edit: I see it's now 4 out of 4.
Why are you criticizing the only thing I've ever learned from Bob?

:):):)

There is no doubt that if Sony had come out with the projector their tune would change completely.

I think that there is some truth to this. I'm surprised at how vocal people have been about the color on the RS-1 when it was never an issue with these same people with the Ruby and/or Pearl. In fact, I don't remember color accuracy ever dominating conversations on AVS like it has recently. Color accuracy is one of the few weaknesses of the RS-1 and it's interesting to see people suddenly "discover" how important color accuracy is to an image lol.

I think that there is some truth to this. I'm surprised at how vocal people have been about the color on the RS-1 when it was never an issue with these same people with the Ruby and/or Pearl. In fact, I don't remember color accuracy ever dominating conversations on AVS like it has recently. Color accuracy is one of the few weaknesses of the RS-1 and it's interesting to see people suddenly "discover" how important color accuracy is to an image lol.

The qualia had oversaturated colors too, didn't it?

Regarding this discussion, you might to see http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10898201&&#post10898201

I'm surprised at how vocal people have been about the color on the RS-1 when it was never an issue with these same people with the Ruby and/or Pearl. In fact, I don't remember color accuracy ever dominating conversations on AVS like it has recently. Color accuracy is one of the few weaknesses of the RS-1 and it's interesting to see people suddenly "discover" how important color accuracy is to an image lol.Mark, this is absolutely true. One of the reasons is that I've been harping on the issue. I can only speak for myself, but I can you why I have suddenly become vocal about it, at least concerning the RS1 (actually my interests in this regard transcend any one projector).

There were 3 reasons. First, I don't believe I had ever witnessed such a pre and immediate post-release hysteria about a projector, including the SXRDs. Given that, I felt an urge to try and deflate the bubble a little.

Second, the RS1 does not just have inaccurate color. It has the most inaccurate post-calibration color I've ever measured. I was concerned that, like the SXRDs before it, this very popular projector might serve as an object lesson to manufacturers in the future showing them that there was no penalty to pay for deliberate engineering of wildly exaggerated primaries.

Third, I really think that we have have beat the contrast issue to death (fortunately, the manufacturers have responded), and I hoped to stimulate some interest on another area of performance.

Quite frankly, the RS1 would be damn near perfect if they would just fix this one issue--including giving a full complement of gray scale controls--so it's not surprising that people have focused on this. Other projectors have a series of profound problems and it's sometimes hard to know where to start.

Quite frankly, the RS1 would be damn near perfect if they would just fix this one issue--including giving a full complement of gray scale controls--so it's not surprising that people have focused on this. Other projectors have a series of profound problems and it's sometimes hard to know where to start.
I agree. Also I have never been a Sony fan. The color is just too oversaturated on the RS1. It takes me out of the movie when I see the unrealistic color. No axe to grind. It's just that simple. . Having never really been that concerned about projectors, I took too much for granted. So little of my time is spent even reading the projector forum that I had no idea that the trend was to oversaturate the colors. The first I knew about the Sony Pearl and Ruby being oversaturated was when it was used as an excuse as to why the JVC's wacky colors were OK too :rolleyes: . I never would have imagined that companies would start deliberately making projector so oversaturated. Of rourse with TV sets, I would expect it but I though projectors were more performance directed. It was an unpleasant surprise. Seems I need to make a mental note to really see what's going on with projectors before I buy anything again. If the RS1 proves not to be correctable, I do not intend to ever buy another JVC projector. Perhaps, playing to market preferences is understandable. Forcing it on one, however, without a means of correction is unacceptable.

Talk about a useless conversation! It is very apparent that none of you have had any training in human perception. The bottom line is that nearly everyone sees things, hears things, tastes things, and feels things differently. In many cases VERY differently.

So unless something is displaying green as red, it will depend on the user. Oops, maybe be not even then if you are a deuteranope. <g>

Tempest in a bloody teapot, especially since the stats say most folks like their RS1 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=4877)

So if you don't like something, don't buy/watch it.

The qualia had oversaturated colors too, didn't it?

Good point, you're right I think the Qualia did have oversaturated color. At the time people also raved about the nice colors from the magic Xenon bulb too ;)


Mark, this is absolutely true. One of the reasons is that I've been harping on the issue. I can only speak for myself, but I can you why I have suddenly become vocal about it, at least concerning the RS1 (actually my interests in this regard transcend any one projector).

There were 3 reasons. First, I don't believe I had ever witnessed such a pre and immediate post-release hysteria about a projector, including the SXRDs. Given that, I felt an urge to try and deflate the bubble a little.


Hi Tom, I'm all for color accuracy, CMS and in getting manufacturers to realize the importance of it. We need a champion of color accuracy on this forum and imho you're the one who has stepped up and assumed this role by providing so much good technical info and examples to educate people about it. I think though that your message is starting to get lost by attacking only the RS-1 so vocally.

When it comes to color inaccuracy there is a lot of criticizm that can be heaped across the industry rather than just the RS-1. For example, going by the CIE color chart that cine4home published the Pearl is worse because of how much the colorspace is skewed. But by attacking only the RS-1 so vocally it looks like the point is more to discredit the RS-1 than it is a crusade for color accuracy.

In fact your sentence above leads people to believe that there is an agenda. For example, why feel the need to burst the buble about the RS-1? If people like it and they are excited at the notion of a digital achieving this sort of contrast and lumens performance they should be allowed to be excited about it.


Third, I really think that we have have beat the contrast issue to death (fortunately, the manufacturers have responded), and I hoped to stimulate some interest on another area of performance.


There has been a lot of talk about the contrast issue that is true. But the reason why is because it's an exceedingly difficult and unique accomplishment that JVC has pulled off. By comparison it's relatively easy for a manufacturer to add CMS or make a projector quieter or do any of a number of improvments that make a product better but contrast has always been one of the biggest weaknesses of a digital and it's been a fundamental technology hurdle to try and overcome so it really is a big deal for a company to go from 3000:1 to 15000:1 native in one step as JVC has done.


Quite frankly, the RS1 would be damn near perfect if they would just fix this one issue--including giving a full complement of gray scale controls--so it's not surprising that people have focused on this. Other projectors have a series of profound problems and it's sometimes hard to know where to start.


Well hopefully JVC has heard you and we'll get a new machine at CEDIA that has CMS or is more color accurate OTB :)

Let me know how the wife is doing

Unfortunately, reincarnate, never (ever) good enough. 8)

Third, I really think that we have have beat the contrast issue to death (fortunately, the manufacturers have responded), and I hoped to stimulate some interest on another area of performance.




There has been a lot of talk about the contrast issue that is true. But the reason why is because it's an exceedingly difficult and unique accomplishment that JVC has pulled off. By comparison it's relatively easy for a manufacturer to add CMS or make a projector quieter or do any of a number of improvments that make a product better but contrast has always been one of the biggest weaknesses of a digital and it's been a fundamental technology hurdle to try and overcome so it really is a big deal for a company to go from 3000:1 to 15000:1 native in one step as JVC has done.


Also, as I think Tom has noted in the past, with contrast ratio higher is always better, for everyone, where in regards to color accuracy more, if not most, actually seem to prefer an inaccurate image.

Even professional calibrators and serious hobbyists have commented that the color controls presently on the RS1 allow the RS1 to get calibrated enough to come out with astounding images. Even some of the most vocal critics now have proclaimed that, without knowing of the color's accuracy, the images were very good (even the best they had ever seen.)

In this regard, CMS/color accuracy, like vertical stretch, is likely considered a luxury and not a necessity (thats probably why they were left off the RS1.) I think Tom hit it on the head when he referred to Color Accuracy as analogous to rainbows.

Despite all of that, I am for getting all of the "luxury" items that should be very easily implementable (given JVCs other products and the Gennum processor) and am hopeful that JVC will get these (vertical stretch and CMS/or at least a color accurate profile as mentioned above) implemented, even if its just to extend the RS1s life cycle.

I'm surprised at how vocal people have been about the color on the RS-1 when it was never an issue with these same people with the Ruby and/or Pearl. In fact, I don't remember color accuracy ever dominating conversations on AVS like it has recently. Color accuracy is one of the few weaknesses of the RS-1 and it's interesting to see people suddenly "discover" how important color accuracy is to an image
My first serious digital, an IF 7210, had incredibly accurate colors. When I first got my Ruby I posted quite a bit about the inaccurate colors and how much I disliked them (and they weren't as bad as the RS-1's). But as the time went on and I no longer had the 7210 as a reference, I "got used" to seeing the oversaturated colors and didn't find them objectionable. Once I got the RS-1, the colors were even worse than the Ruby, but by lowering luminance I was somewhat happy once again.

The big turning point for me was when I got the Sharp Z12k and calibrated it. Even though the Sharp's green is undersaturated and yellowish, the colors are far more accurate than either the Ruby or the RS-1, and this is when I joined Tom's crusade for accurate colors. Now that I watch both projectors on a daily basis I find that the Z12k, on a much smaller screen, provides a superior picture (in my opinion) to the RS-1 on a much larger screen. I find myself watching the Sharp much more often than the RS-1 and enjoying it a lot more simply because of its color accuracy, something which I didn't know how much I missed until I had it again.

This is not a Sony versus JVC issue - I will not buy ANY projector from either Sony or JVC again unless it either has accurate color to begin with or at least has the ability to calibrate it as such.
Quite frankly, the RS1 would be damn near perfect if they would just fix this one issue--including giving a full complement of gray scale controls--so it's not surprising that people have focused on this.
No, the RS-1 has other issues, but if it had accurate color then I could certainly overlook those issues - for me, RIGHT NOW, inaccurate color is the killer. Once they get the color right I am sure we will find plenty of other things to complain about.

I guess people are forgetting the posts on the Ruby/Pearl that clearly indicated it had way oversaturated colors - but dialing them on target with the RCP only made the video decoding much worse - exactly like the JVC. Do you think Tom fudged the JVC vs. Sharp data because he is shilling for Sharp - or do you think that is actually how the measures came out? Since nobody posts about Ruby/Pearl anymore based on the fron page of this forum - why get all excited about it with PJ owners who have left the forum behind because of all the JVC posts since it is the latest/greatest. If Tom champions anything about color - the JVC is just the latest most current victim.

It is not hype vs. shills for any one PJ - it is about people learning and educating themselves about video engineering and color science - on AVScience. Sometimes like Bob - you learn there is a lot to calibration that goes in to making a perfect picture - and you can recognize it once you sit down and watch it for a few weeks.


Should not this be about JVC (and others that lose out in color comparison/correction) making a CMS and greyscale service menu - it is not about JVC vs. whomever at all. Only those who bought the PJ are making it into that for fear of suffering buyers remorse and having to upgrade yet again - their energy would better be directed toward JVC to fix the problem - then more people would buy the PJ (and maybe they can even try the newly fixed accurate preset and admit they were wrong)

it is not about JVC vs. whomever at all. Only those who bought the PJ are making it into that for fear of suffering buyers remorse and having to upgrade yet again - their energy would better be directed toward JVC to fix the problemI posted this exact thing about 3 months ago. If everyone hides and no one b!tchs and never lets JVC know we're not happy with their design decisions, they will continue as if all is ok. This PJ has the potential to be excellent, but with all their technical jackin' around, it falls short.

The obvious question now is, given what has come to be known regarding color inaccuracies, what 1080P projector under 10k, do you who have the expertise, recommend.

Tom Huffman, Krazmuzik, Mark Peterson, Bob Sorel, and anyone I have missed, if the JVC doesn't cut it, and the Pearl is also guilty of similar oversaturation sins.........what projector(s) do you each feel that discerning purchasers should consider that are accurate?


John

John,

Read the first post in the thread. I believe the answer would be the Sharp Z20000 as far as 1080 PJ's go.

what projector should discerning projector purchasers be considering?The 1080p PJ's aren't matured enough yet. I went with a state-of-the-art 720p Marantz S4. I couldn't be happier. It kills the RS1 in all the important areas to me; Black level, Color accuracy, Processing, Sharpness and $2K cheaper! I can easily live with less contrast and slighty less resolution as long as the image is natural and gives you a better "looking through the window" effect.

Only those who bought the PJ are making it into that for fear of suffering buyers remorse and having to upgrade yet again - their energy would better be directed toward JVC to fix the problem - then more people would buy the PJ (and maybe they can even try the newly fixed accurate preset and admit they were wrong)

I posted this exact thing about 3 months ago. If everyone hides and no one b!tchs and never lets JVC know we're not happy with their design decisions, they will continue as if all is ok. This PJ has the potential to be excellent, but with all their technical jackin' around, it falls short.



Despite all the (insane) pre-release hype and anticipation for the RS1, 84% of RS1 owners (responding) are satisfied and believe that the RS1 has met their expectation or better and an additional 8% are barely unsatisfied. That is a poll with, as of now, 100 participants who are AVS forum members.

This isnt a walk-in poll at Walmart or Best Buy.

I dont think JVC is believing that they have to fix anything in regard to the RS1. Hopefully, they decide to do what we feel is right by their customers and implement features that are easly implementable, like vertical stretch and CMS.

All in all though, I think most are in agreement that the RS1 is quite the product. Theres always going to be a vocal minority who will disagree. Just goes to show that you always cant please everybody.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=865821

John,

Read the first post in the thread. I believe the answer would be the Sharp Z20000 as far as 1080 PJ's go.

I saw the chart.........I was asking what all of those with significant expertise recommended. Is the Z20000 the only option? And what about those who cannot afford it? No hope for us?


John

84% of RS1 owners (responding) are satisfied and believe that the RS1 has met their expectationsMost buyers who just blew $5K almost always have to justify their purchase... especially if they want the keep the price up when they unload it.

Most buyers who just blew $5K almost always have to justify their purchase... especially if they want the keep the price up when they unload it.

Thats funny. 8)

Is that why you were so negative on the 12S4 before you bought it? Were you hoping that the seller would drop it down to $1500 so you could buy it? 8)

Also, having their 30 day guarantee, Im wondering how many RS1s AVS has sold and how many were returned. Id wager much much less than the 5% than who were completely unsatisfied, according to the poll.

I think a persons HVS is more tolerant of brightness/intensity discrepancies than if the color (hue) is completely wrong. There should be a way to express the degree of skewness of the colorspace and come up with a simple metric like average dE for it.
Depending upon which interpretation of which dE formula you use, the CIE may or may not agree with you here. However, with the 1994 and later calculation methods, you do get dH as a separate measure.

Bill

Mark that is exactly what the CIE LCH color space is. C is saturation biased by lightness - and L is pure lightness. C accounts for your perception that a dim but too deep color, and a pale but bright color will appear to have the same color strength. The CIE1931 chart overdoes the green errors on the JVC and the perceptual CIELCH measures puts it in more perspective. But dE itself is perceptual.
- as it measures perceived difference.

With that system just getting greyscale off to 7500K can have a big impact on your hue (H) measures - which you can indeed easily see if you know what secondary hues are supposed to look like. The intent of the CIELCH measures is to indeed match your perception. And yes the JVC gets everything mostly right but dC* which is way off - as bad as most other PJ's get their dH* off.

I have a spreadsheet in the end of calibration charts sticky thread that shows the calculation.

I saw the chart.........I was asking what all of those with significant expertise recommended. Is the Z20000 the only option? And what about those who cannot afford it? No hope for us?Well, of the 1080p projectors I have some experience with, the Epson TW1000 + Optoma HD3000 processor + calibration will get you a really nice color-accurate image for about 5K. However, the NATIVE black level is rather high and it suffers from some white field uniformity errors.

The BenQ W90000 is capable of a nice, reasonably color-accurate (post-calibration) image for about 4K.

The Sony Pearl for about 4K throws a really nice image. It's color is not particularly accurate, but it's closer than the JVC.

The Panasonic AE1000 and Mitsubishi HC5000 at about 4K both have their champions, though I've had no experience with either.

If you are willing to go 720p, it's really hard to beat the Sharp XV-Z12000 Mk II for 2K. The Optoma HD7300 is also a really good buy at 3K, though it is very short throw.

All of these projectors have their own strengths and weaknesses. Remember, color accuracy is just one measure of performance and has to be weighed against other performance criteria that may be as important or even more important to you.

Mark, this is absolutely true. One of the reasons is that I've been harping on the issue. I can only speak for myself, but I can you why I have suddenly become vocal about it, at least concerning the RS1 (actually my interests in this regard transcend any one projector).

There were 3 reasons. First, I don't believe I had ever witnessed such a pre and immediate post-release hysteria about a projector, including the SXRDs. Given that, I felt an urge to try and deflate the bubble a little.

You omit the most obvious reason: Projectors without CMS substantially affect your livelihood. Can we come clean for once?

Texas Instruments/DLP has released Brilliant Color II which allows for even more saturated colors. It’s incorporated in my new Samsung 6176 projector. And guess what? The greens of trees are way oversaturated. So too are the reds. Dah!

The Panasonic 1000 projector has very nice oversaturated colors in its color 1 mode. For most films (especially animation) it’s very pleasing to watch. Color accuracy tuned by Hollywood color experts to match films.

And what about Sony? They are leading the charge with their new highly saturated color standard.

The fact is the Rec701 is outdated as many possible saturated colors (which we can see in films) fall outside its limits. Almost everyone loves saturated eye candy.

This relentless jihad solely against the JVC shows extreme prejudice and self-centered selfishness. Its insulting to fair minded people.
Get the picture buddy?

As for me I'm going to watch Paris justify her absurd behavior on Larry King.

The Panasonic 1000 projector has very nice oversaturated colors in its color 1 mode. For most films (especially animation) it’s very pleasing to watch. Color accuracy tuned by Hollywood color experts to match films.

The gamut in Cinema1 option matches the gamut for film, but Color1 actually matches what the compression houses are going to put out. A cinema gamut, much like xvYCC, is irrelevant if there is no content mastered to it.

Bill

I mentioned the Panasonic's Color 1 (with CIE charts) hitting the color points very well a couple of pages back. As I said there, if JVC could provide one additional color setting like that via a firmware upgrade, it would move much closer to the top (or bottom as it's currently shown) of Tom's chart.

The fact is the Rec701 is outdated as many possible saturated colors (which we can see in films) fall outside its limits. Almost everyone loves saturated eye candy.



Its not quite that straight forward. The gamut of film whilst it can describe many colours that video can't manage there are alos a few that video can do which film doesn't , Dark deeply saturated blues and magentas for example.

Also bear in mind that "rec.709" is a video standard and unless you are watching film colourspace material there is no real relevance to watching rec.709 mastered video using anything other than a correct standard. You won't improve it by watching it on a film calibrated display ( for a start it will be crushed all to hell and unwatchable).

The qualia had oversaturated colors too, didn't it?
The Q004 had 2 color spaces, wide and normal. The normal color space was pretty accurate IIRC.

Mr.D

I have to agree here with reincarnate. Our NTSC color system was established mid century and we are still using it. We have seen advancements in every other area except color.
When I watch film the one thing I notice lacking from our electronic systems are not contrast or resolution it is the color. That is the biggest difference I easily notice. A few weeks ago I had the pleasure of a private meeting with a major projector manufacture. A private 35mm screening took place and they stood there and said we just cannot reproduce those colors. There were colors in this film that we are just not seeing with our systems and it is very evident when doing a side by side.
I am not on the level of expertise as some of you guys so I cannot put the reasoning for this into
technical jargon but I do know what I am seeing. Indeed our color system needs to be revamped and in my opinion that is far more important then bringing to market 4k machines and better contrast although I will always welcome improvement with on/off contrast on digital projectors.
Sadly now that we have HD on disc it has its short comings for the large screen ( banding from 8 bit limitation ) but looks great on a small flat panel. I doubt we will see any change in our color system any time soon. They cant even add 24 output to 2nd gen HD DVD players. Every baby step takes years.
For me personally I would forgo any other improvement in our electronic system and stay right where we are for a better color system and feel we would be further ahead. I just hope I am lucky enough to see this materialize in my lifetime :)

Dark deeply saturated blues and magentas for example.
Are you sure about that?

This diagram made by Genoa shows that colors on film can be more saturated than colors on Rec709 video.

http://home1.gte.net/res18h39/images/gamuts.gif

Alan

Until the high def DVD battle declares a winner - and that winner milks that format for ten years just like they did DVD - I doubt we will see a consumer media format that incorporates the wide gamut extensions to component and RGB that HDMI 1.3 supports. With that you could support Digital Cinema masters on the media - and having a wide gamut would be a very good thing. Until then it is colorization - same as Ted Turner is doing to B&W movies - it will never look right and the same as the original color on the SMPTE master. But for those that want to wait that long for DigitalCinema masters to come home - the JVC is a very good match for that gamut. Of course in ten years it will be worth 1% of what they originally paid....

krasmuzik

Good post.
Sadly you are 100% correct:(

Mark that is exactly what the CIE LCH color space is.


Hi Kras, thanks for pointing me to this:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10265204&&#post10265204

It makes sense that someone has come up with an alternate color space to describe color accuracy.


This diagram made by Genoa shows that colors on film can be more saturated than colors on Rec709 video.


Hi Erik, I remember you posting this figure before in another similar thread about color accuracy. IIRC there was a discussion then about deliberately oversaturating the color space to make up for the limitations of Rec. 709 what was the final gyst of that thread?


There were colors in this film that we are just not seeing with our systems and it is very evident when doing a side by side.


This is a really good point. In an earlier post to Bob S. I alluded to the fact that some films look undersaturated when using CMS accurate color. I was basing this on the look of the digital projected image rather than the film image. So it's likely that what I was seeing is the limitation of the standard itself. Unfortunately I don't get to see many side by side film vs digital demos ;)

Hi Erik, I remember you posting this figure before in another similar thread about color accuracy. IIRC there was a discussion then about deliberately oversaturating the color space to make up for the limitations of Rec. 709 what was the final gyst of that thread?
I'm not sure what the final gist was, but here is a link to it: In praise of Color Management Systems (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=809401)

Er excuse me gentlemen I do actually have real world experience of this.
Why do you think people moved to 3d colourspace calculated LUTS instead of 2d?

Mainly so those pretty blues and magentas that could be created on video displays with fairly coarsely modelled correctional LUTs didn't disappear when recorded out to film.

I did not say that rec.709 was superior in any way to film all I said was that each colourspace can reproduce colours that the other can't.

I'm not sure what the final gist was, but here is a link to it: In praise of Color Management Systems (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=809401)

Yup that was the thread. I think these discussions keep ending up on the same trail ;)

Are you sure about that?




Try CMY vs RGB gamut and see what you get.

Why do you think people moved to 3d colourspace calculated LUTS instead of 2d?

Mainly so those pretty blues and magentas that could be created on video displays with fairly coarsely modelled correctional LUTs didn't disappear when recorded out to film.
Why would they disappear? Because they were too saturated for film, or just because they were too bright for film?

The diagram that I posted shows that video can have blues and magentas that are brighter when their saturation (i.e., excitation purity) is less than ~60%. However, when their saturation exceeds ~60%, video's luminance quickly drops to 0%. Film's luminance does not drop to 0% until ~80% saturation.

Do you think the diagram is wrong?

Why would they disappear?

Do you think the diagram is wrong?

yes or at least very VERY simplistic. There are out of gamut colors with film vs video and in the other direction. And just about every other colourspace vs another.

However I've been unable to find any decent CIE diagrams on the net that adequately illustrate the differences here however is someone else mentioning this well known phenomena.

http://www.cinebyte.com/rocket.htm

pay particluar attention to

1. Are there colors that translate from video to film providing an accurate visual match?
2. Are there colors in video that are also possible on film but are not accurately translated?
3. Are there colors that are possible on video that are not possible on film?

The answer to all three questions is yes.

And its very embaassing when you spend ages working up the look to a shot on a poorly calibrated workstation only to have half the image drop out when it goes to film.

If you are willing to go 720p, it's really hard to beat the Sharp XV-Z12000 Mk II for 2K.
Despite owning the #2 worst offending pj on the list :) , I think that the color accuracy topic is one of the most educational lists started on AVS in recent memory! Tom, thanks for bringing this issue to the fore front, keep it up.

I bought the 12K Mk II recently and have been comparing it to the Ruby. Where does the Mk II's uncalibrated color accuracy stand on your list? What equipment do I need to color calibrate it? Will any ISF calibrator posses the necessary equipment to color calibrate it?

Unfortunately I don't get to see many side by side film vs digital demos ;)


If its well calibrated then I mainly notice slightly oversaturated bright reds , other than that its pretty good.

Sadly now that we have HD on disc it has its short comings for the large screen ( banding from 8 bit limitation ) but looks great on a small flat panel. :)

To be honest the 8bit limitation of consumer video is a bit misleading. The major causes of banding are down to the displays themselves being unable to modulate an 8bit intensity range transparently whatever they may claim with the capabilities of the processing pipeline.

How often is banding a problem for CRT owners?

I hardly ever see banding on the HD1 and when I do its normally well documented as a source problem ( some Planet Earth footage).

I've watched dvds and hd-dvds on a Barco dp100 and not once did I see banding.
I've watched 10bit log material on well respected LCDs and plasmas....banding.

The difference between 8bit and 10bit video is so slight as to be only visible on grade1 broadcast monitors.

The whole bit depth limitation of video is overstated .
To make it worthwhile going higher than 8bit we need to move away from a video type intensity range to something approaching print film ( at the vey least). raw bit depth isn't necessarily the limitingh factor at the moment ( hell you can get away with 8bit for a negative film density range with 90% of imagery let alone video)

I'd actually table a format that represented full range negative film density and loaded correctional LUTS into the display to produce the absolute best match for the displays colourspace capabilities and applied all the exhibition colour correction...on the fly. Now thats a format and I reckon you could do it with 8bits especially if you limited it below full negative density a couple of stops.

yes or at least very VERY simplistic.
The diagram shows only six hues (RGB and CMY), but other than that, what do you think is very simplistic about it?
There are out of gamut colors with film vs video and in the other direction. And just about every other colourspace vs another.
I agree that there are out-of-gamut colors in both directions.

What I'm asking about is what causes the colors to go out-of-gamut. Do they go out-of-gamut because they are too bright? Or because they are too saturated?

What equipment do I need to color calibrate it? Will any ISF calibrator posses the necessary equipment to color calibrate it?
An ISF calibrator ought to have the right gear, or ought not to be in the business. ;)

If you want to DIY, take a walk to the Display Calibration forum. There are options available; two of which are local to you. You will need software, a meter of some flavor, and some time to get up the learning curve. For the Ruby, you will generally want to go with an i1 Pro, though, since the Xenon lamp plays havoc with the filter-based units.

Bill

The diagram shows only six hues (RGB and CMY), but other than that, what do you think is very simplistic about it?

It doesn't readily appear to take the higher dynamic range of film into account vs video , it makes no mention of whether its comparing a print density to video or a scanned negative density to video.




I agree that there are out-of-gamut colors in both directions.

What I'm asking about is what causes the colors to go out-of-gamut. Do they go out-of-gamut because they are too bright? Or because they are too saturated?



At a very rough guess I would say that its the physical characteristics of dye based colour capabilities vs electronic. And the lack of exposure sensitivty towards the "toe" of a bit of negative film stock. The colours I'm aware of that drop out of gamut with film relative to video are all fairly low intensity ( dark) shades of blue and reddish/magentas. Interestingly enough probably quite close to the hues visible on this website.

It doesn't readily appear to take the higher dynamic range of film into account vs video
The dynamic range (i.e., the contrast ratio between the maximum and minimum luminance) is beyond the scope of that diagram. The diagram shows the maximum luminance for all saturation levels of each principle hue. It does not show the minimum luminance, but it can be assumed to be near zero. At saturation levels that are too high for film or video, there is no maximum or minimum luminance, thus there is no dynamic range.
it makes no mention of whether its comparing a print density to video or a scanned negative density to video.
The technical paper (http://www.genoacolor.com/Media/DBImages/CIC14_61_pre-print.pdf) that contains the diagram does not mention what "film" actually refers to, but I guess it is a positive film print that can be projected.
At a very rough guess I would say that its the physical characteristics of dye based colour capabilities vs electronic. And the lack of exposure sensitivty towards the "toe" of a bit of negative film stock. The colours I'm aware of that drop out of gamut with film relative to video are all fairly low intensity ( dark) shades of blue and reddish/magentas. Interestingly enough probably quite close to the hues visible on this website.
What does "drop out of gamut" mean exactly in terms of what you see? Do those colors appear darker on film than they do on video, or less saturated, or some combination of both?

An ISF calibrator ought to have the right gear, or ought not to be in the business. ;)

If you want to DIY, take a walk to the Display Calibration forum. There are options available; two of which are local to you. You will need software, a meter of some flavor, and some time to get up the learning curve. For the Ruby, you will generally want to go with an i1 Pro, though, since the Xenon lamp plays havoc with the filter-based units.

Bill
I may not have been very clear. I am not asking about grayscale calibration, I was asking about using the 12k MkII's CMS to create accurate colors. The Ruby is already professionally calibrated.

I may not have been very clear. I am not asking about grayscale calibration, I was asking about using the 12k MkII's CMS to create accurate colors.

The answer should be the same.

I'm an RS-1 owner. Out of the box I liked the extreme coloration of the images with almost all inputs. It was all the time "Kodachrome".
Eventually it became a bit much, annoyingly vivid. I cranked down the color to the -15 to -20 range( not yet settled on a level) and low and behold....a return to Anscocolor of yesteryear. Purists can fault it I suppose, but I like it now. It is softer, film like and quite realistic.
I am lucky in that I don't suffer from bright corners or other visible flaws, so at this time I'm a very satisfied owner.

I may not have been very clear. I am not asking about grayscale calibration, I was asking about using the 12k MkII's CMS to create accurate colors. The Ruby is already professionally calibrated.

There is a guide that Tom put together for calibrating with a CMS. Its a sticky in the display calibration forum.

.

What does "drop out of gamut" mean exactly in terms of what you see? Do those colors appear darker on film than they do on video, or less saturated, or some combination of both?

Worst case scenario and the area that falls out of gamut is just gone, not a question of the colour being different or the intensity lessened , you essentially get a hole in the film as there is nothing in that particular area of the image it can actually record.

Bear in mind negative film works by by making the bright areas opaque and the darker areas transparent. The more darker an area becomes the less dye is seeded into these areas so the colour performance varies with intensity. : similar to HSI fortunately but it still betrays the fact its a chemical system with limitations. Video doesn't use a negative/print type dynamic so these particular limitations don't apply , net result video can record ( create might be a better word) colours in certain areas of the intensity range that film can't. Theoretically a "perfect" video system won't have the limitations that film does and resolve a perfect full spectrum gamut eventually. Film will probably never be able to do this inherently because of the way it works.

Worst case scenario and the area that falls out of gamut is just gone, not a question of the colour being different or the intensity lessened , you essentially get a hole in the film as there is nothing in that particular area of the image it can actually record.
When you say the area is "gone" or a "hole," do you mean that the area looks black when it is projected?

Most people, even many enthusiasts here on AVS, have no use for a CMS, even if their display really needs one. Having to get a brand new display calibrated is like buying a new car that needs a tune-up the minute right off the assembly line. Both are equally unacceptable.

Manufacturers that sell displays with bad colors really should be ashamed. How hard would it be for them to have included a preset with colors that are, or are close to, correct?

I initally thought that the RS1's so-called color problems were just the usual vocal minority that bashes everything around here. Now that I have seen an RS1, I kind of see their point. The colors are kind of distractingly vibrant, at least to me.

The point is not that some people prefer more vibrant colors than those that are standard. Many clearly may. The point is that colors that are close to standard should be available merely by selecting a menu option.

I initally thought that the RS1's so-called color problems were just the usual vocal minority that bashes everything around here. Now that I have seen an RS1, I kind of see their point. The colors are kind of distractingly vibrant, at least to me.
Right...And if you watch the same material on a color correct display right after seeing it on the RS-1, the difference is downright obvious.
The point is that colors that are close to standard should be available merely by selecting a menu option.
And that is what is so incredibly frustrating about this situation. This would have been such a simple thing for JVC to do, but instead they elected to purposely provide oversaturated colors ONLY.

Right...And if you watch the same material on a color correct display right after seeing it on the RS-1, the difference is downright obvious.

And that is what is so incredibly frustrating about this situation. This would have been such a simple thing for JVC to do, but instead they elected to purposely provide oversaturated colors ONLY.

Well said - I could not agree more. They did not even include saturation control, something every ancient TV had - what the hell were they thinking??????

Well said - I could not agree more. They did not even include saturation control, something every ancient TV had - what the hell were they thinking??????

My best guess (and it is only a guess) is that proper calibration of the RS1 would come at the expense of lumens and/or contrast. In other words, the RS1 would not have spec'd out as nicely with proper colors. Any possible truth to this?

My best guess (and it is only a guess) is that proper calibration of the RS1 would come at the expense of lumens and/or contrast. In other words, the RS1 would not have spec'd out as nicely with proper colors. Any possible truth to this?


Not really to be honest. The RS1 is pretty good grayscale wise out of the box. It can be improved but you are talking very minor adjustment. The oversaturated colour primaries shouldn't really have a bearing on the brightness characteristics and contrast. Colour is really just smeared over the top of the grayscale to be honest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy
My best guess (and it is only a guess) is that proper calibration of the RS1 would come at the expense of lumens and/or contrast. In other words, the RS1 would not have spec'd out as nicely with proper colors. Any possible truth to this?

Regarding saturation of primaries, it goes in the opposite direction. The more saturated, the less light output.

My best guess (and it is only a guess) is that proper calibration of the RS1 would come at the expense of lumens and/or contrast. In other words, the RS1 would not have spec'd out as nicely with proper colors. Any possible truth to this?
I am wondering the same thing. I saw a review of an Infocus projector where the guy reduced the oversaturation of green I think. The result was that the contrast ratio was decreased according to the reviewer.

[QUOTE=Bob SorelAnd that is what is so incredibly frustrating about this situation. This would have been such a simple thing for JVC to do, but instead they elected to purposely provide oversaturated colors ONLY.[/QUOTE]
The question now is will they offer a firmware solution with an option to have correct colors or just try to screw the people who are not happy with the oversaturation. JVC is unusual in that it was almost impossible to get a demo of their projectors. I bought it and hated the colors right out of the box and quickly found I could do little about it. My mistake was in not returning it right then but my old projector had broken . For me it is now a question of what kind of company JVC is? Will they address the problem or just produce a new model? Even if you are happy with the colors , you should still be curious to see what course they take ;) . What happens the next time if a major issue that you ARE unhappy with pops up and you have just bought a new JVC projector? Will they fix it or tell you, "Hey we will address that with the next model. Buy it." If it is a financial issue which it likely is, I would be more than happy to pay for a firmware fix as that certainly would be cheaper than a scaler.

I am wondering the same thing. I saw a review of an Infocus projector where the guy reduced the oversaturation of green I think. The result was that the contrast ratio was decreased according to the reviewer.

The saturation of the primaries is only related to CR at D65 if it changes how far the projector is from being native D65. The maximum CR at D65 is if white is D65 at clipping of the primaries. In most cases, oversaturated primaries will decrease the CR. CR will be maintained only if the oversaturation of all three is in the right proportion, which is unlikely. This shows how much value JVC has placed on vivid colors. They gave up some light output and probably some CR to get it.

The question now is will they offer a firmware solution with an option to have correct colors or just try to screw the people who are not happy with the oversaturation. JVC is unusual in that it was almost impossible to get a demo of their projectors. I bought it and hated the colors right out of the box and quickly found I could do little about it. My mistake was in not returning it right then but my old projector had broken . For me it is now a question of what kind of company JVC is? Will they address the problem or just produce a new model? Even if you are happy with the colors , you should still be curious to see what course they take ;) . What happens the next time if a major issue that you ARE unhappy with pops up and you have just bought a new JVC projector? Will they fix it or tell you, "Hey we will address that with the next model. Buy it." If it is a financial issue which it likely is, I would be more than happy to pay for a firmware fix as that certainly would be cheaper than a scaler.

Can't the primaries and secondaries be controlled by outboard processing ?

Art

Can't the primaries and secondaries be controlled by outboard processing ?

Art

From my first grade understanding of it all, since the colors are 5% overstaturated, a proper signal from 16 to 235 will be displayed as if the integers went all the way to 245. ((235-16)/20 + 235) The standard color does not go this high.

So to map that color that is being displayed at 245 to be displayed at 235, we would have to change the number sent to the pj down from 235 to 224. (235 - (235-16/20))

That will work great for that one color, but the problem is that the colors are sent in integer form, and we would need to send 219 (235-16) colors in the source, using only 208 colors in the signal (224-16).

This will mean that every twentieth color we will have to group two colors in the source at the same color in the signal ( the signal that has been modified [bastardized] to send desaturated color to compensate for the inadequacies of the RS-1)

So there will be banding unless you can get a higher bit depth signal to the projector. One more bit would give you twice as many steps, so banding would occur every 40th bit instead of every 20th. Two more bits would give you four times as many bits as originally, so banding would be every 80th color instead of every 20th one.

Unfortunately, from what I have read here, the RS-1 will not accept a color bit rate higher than 8 over HDMI, which leads you to have to use component, if you want a higher bit rate. If I ever figure that out exactly, I might get to 2nd grade. :)

From this simple information, I believe that the real place to adjust this color issue is in the processor inside the pj, where still higher level color mapping can occur. This is also only parroting others, who know a lot more about this than I do, or will.

Anyone who can clarify or say where I just kind of missed the boat, feel free.

Best Regards,
Doug

edit, PS I hope it can be done and someone does it, since JVC has not shown any signs of correcting this issue. Right now, as I understand it, there are no processors that adjust saturation without changing the luminance.

The saturation of the primaries is only related to CR at D65 if it changes how far the projector is from being native D65. The maximum CR at D65 is if white is D65 at clipping of the primaries. In most cases, oversaturated primaries will decrease the CR. CR will be maintained only if the oversaturation of all three is in the right proportion, which is unlikely. This shows how much value JVC has placed on vivid colors. They gave up some light output and probably some CR to get it.
Thanks. You answered some questions that I have been wondering about for awhile.

Unfortunately, from what I have read here, the RS-1 will not accept a color bit rate higher than 8 over HDMI, which leads you to have to use component, if you want a higher bit rate. If I ever figure that out exactly, I might get to 2nd grade. :)

From this simple information, I believe that the real place to adjust this color issue is in the processor inside the pj, where still higher level color mapping can occur. This is also only parroting others, who know a lot more about this than I do, or will.
Best Regards,
Doug

Great explanation. I wanted to keep my understanding of video at the kindergarten level as I am more of an audiophile. The oversaturation is difficult for me to accept and the RS1 is forcing a quick education.

Great explanation. I wanted to keep my understanding of video at the kindergarten level as I am more of an audiophile. The oversaturation is difficult for me to accept and the RS1 is forcing a quick education.

Thanks. :)

While not precisely accurate in some ways, I hoped to clearly show the issue, if for no other reason than to make sure that I understood it myself.

I did a much rougher explanation in another thread. Since this one is a little closer to the real numbers and things like that, I figured that I could promote myself to first grade. :)

I would not be learning about any of this if it weren't for the RS-1, either.

Best Regards,
Doug

shodoug

You apparently understand it better now than JVC.... :p

hi
i increased the B R and G offsets (+20 +10 +5 since green is most out of the D65 triangle, then red then blue so the boosted offsets are invert proportional). it's empiric and amateur but i like the result: more "punch" and less oversaturation of colors (color at -5, temp Middle, lamp normal). contrast +10 brigthness -2 gamma Normal
screen size: 3meters
the idea was also to get more "snap" like dlp have with their much higher ansi contrast.
while trying ot desature the HD1 which is oversaturated out of the box.
flesh tones look truely great, greens normal and not neonish. more snap.

again this no scientific/colorfactian approach yet... :)

shodoug

You apparently understand it better now than JVC.... :p

Thanks :D

I just wish that weren't the case, though.

Best Regards,
Doug

i increased the B R and G offsets (+20 +10 +5 since green is most out of the D65 triangle, then red then blue so the boosted offsets are invert proportional).You are making the picture worse not better by attempting to correct a problem with the color points by compensating with the gray scale adjustments.

Let me try and give a nonscientific/colorfactian explanation for this. Oversaturated primaries result in specific colors being improperly represented on screen. Adjusting the gray scale controls to compensate is like trying to fix a painting whose greens you don't like by looking at the painting through blue-tinted glasses. Yes, the greens may now look better, but everything else is now too blue, including the parts of the painting that looked fine before.

You are really screwing up your gray scale by doing this and preventing the projector from being able to render white accurately.

hi Tom
You are likely right but the result looks surprisingly more natural than the oversaturation
out of the box. I should work on the middle temp setting (which are not accessible however) i agree then try to find a balance of contrast and brigthness for more punch.
though brigthness adjustment is extremely limited: a click or two too high and bye byethe nice black bars or too low by a click and blacks become blocky.

again the purpose of the adjustments is combine more 'snap" (illusion of more ansi contrast) while trying to correct the general oversaturation and the primaries oversaturation (green being the most saturated, as always with the DILA and many pj, then red then blue).

a compromise thus... like the japanese btw, i prefer colder but snappier :)

i'll try to take clean screenshots to try to show what it looks like now.

Anyone who can clarify or say where I just kind of missed the boat, feel free.

Best Regards,
Doug

edit, PS I hope it can be done and someone does it, since JVC has not shown any signs of correcting this issue. Right now, as I understand it, there are no processors that adjust saturation without changing the luminance.

Its not quite that bad. If you do the processing at a higher bitdepth ( say 10 or greater)you will minimise rounding errors when the higher bitdepth is then deflated back to 8bit the remap shouldn't introduce additional banding assuming the color corrections required were not too extreme.

Its not quite that bad. If you do the processing at a higher bitdepth ( say 10 or greater)you will minimise rounding errors when the higher bitdepth is then deflated back to 8bit the remap shouldn't introduce additional banding assuming the color corrections required were not too extreme.
That's great news. I hope that the corrections are not too extreme. As Shodoud posted, the RS1 will accept a 10bit signal over component video. Bear5k informs me that digital component video is a signal that the RS1 will accept and the method to use for a 10 bit signal into the RS1. Now I find out after I threw away most of my component video cables. Guess I will have to try it both ways.

Looks like I will only be able to try it ONE way. Lumagen Radiance, only processor with a planned CMS of which I am aware has no component video outputs.

Looks like I will only be able to try it ONE way. Lumagen Radiance, only processor with a planned CMS of which I am aware has no component video outputs.


Your a little bit confused about the whole component thing but I've not had the time to post an explanation.

converting from digital to analogue via a 10bit or greater DAC is not the only way to minimise rounding errors on video processing , the bit inflating for processing I outlined will work for a digital connection.

You can send RGB or Ycrcb down hdmi I think this is what is confusing youy but again bit inflating for processin doesn't rely on this either.

Upshot ...don't get hung up on doing offboard processing restricting you to analogue component.

Your a little bit confused about the whole component thing but I've not had the time to post an explanation.

converting from digital to analogue via a 10bit or greater DAC is not the only way to minimise rounding errors on video processing , the bit inflating for processing I outlined will work for a digital connection.

You can send RGB or Ycrcb down hdmi I think this is what is confusing youy but again bit inflating for processin doesn't rely on this either.

Upshot ...don't get hung up on doing offboard processing restricting you to analogue component.
My information is not coming from you. I am understanding my source clearly. No offense but you are fine with the oversaturation so you are not the person that I would seek out for advice.

That's great news. I hope that the corrections are not too extreme. As Shodoud posted, the RS1 will accept a 10bit signal over component video. Bear5k informs me that digital component video is a signal that the RS1 will accept and the method to use for a 10 bit signal into the RS1. Now I find out after I threw away most of my component video cables. Guess I will have to try it both ways.
No need to use analog component video cables. Just use a regular HDMI connection, but using the 4:2:2 colorspace for output. This will be more clear once folks start to get the Radiance in their hands and these features become available (no clue whether they are or not implemented yet, since I'm still on the wait list).

Bill

My information is not coming from you. I am understanding my source clearly. No offense but you are fine with the oversaturation so you are not the person that I would seek out for advice.

Well gee just forget everything I said you go ahead and pull out those component cables , have fun using them with your Radiance.

Well gee just forget everything I said you go ahead and pull out those component cables , have fun using them with your Radiance.

Yeah, Mr. D, what the hell do you know about anything .. you seem to be ok with oversaturated colors! Besides, doesnt the Radiance also take RCA and S-video anyways? 8)

Yeah, Mr. D, what the hell do you know about anything .. you seem to be ok with oversaturated colors! Besides, doesnt the Radiance also take RCA and S-video anyways? 8)


DAMN my eyes! DAMN them!

DAMN my eyes! DAMN them!
Igor? Is that you? :eek: