I think it was scarely close to that. If the stalemate had lasted sigificantly into 2008 (e.g. Q1-2) I would have agreed (and been quite upset). If this snowballs into a clear win before the holidays (and it's looking like it could actually happen) then I think Blu-ray stands a good chance of unseating DVD, although in unit sales numbers (software) it will likely take a decade...just like DVD took to unseat VHS. The important thing is that one format become the defacto "next" format so people feel comfortable enough to buy one on a whim (e.g. when they buy an HDTV). Lower hardware prices will also help, but only in the absence of a format war. As long as the public consciousness adopts one format as the "next format", and the studios continues to not just put good content, but innovate new forms of interactivity, then HD optical media should still replace DVD. Of course dowloads will fragment the market to some degree, but it will be minimal for quite a while if one format becomes the winner.

I don't know, I think it will take whatever HD format wins a long time to unseat DVD and I think longer than DVD took to unseat VHS. The quality from VHS to DVD was huge. While the quality of HD Media against DVD is huge too, it isn't as huge as VHS to DVD. The quality is more apparent with larger displays, which frankly, not everyone has a large display to view movies on.

Doesn't NetFlix have a larger catalog? :confused:

I have had problems with availability of some of the newer BD releases so I am currently a customer of both and really like it.

I do hope this means that my local store will carry BD soon.

Originally Posted by Monty22001
"If Halo 3 or GTA4 needs 2 DVD's, people will appreciate the BD in PS3." you think so? final fantasy 7 had 3 cd's and metal gear solid had 2 cds.....i dont think it ruined anyones experience with those games. Yeah...but if you had a choice?

I mean, I'm a big 360/HD DVD fan and even I will admit that it would be pretty dang cool if you could have all the greatness of GTAIV, etc on one disc instead of 2+. And I mean, IF this IS or will become the ACTUAL REALITY of the way devs will use BD-50 on the PS3 (think about how movie studios put out 2 disc editions for no other reason then marketing...).

Now if the frame rate or graphics are even slightly glitchy on the PS3 for GTAIV versus how the game functions on the 360 - then I will buy the 2 disc 360 version every time and twice on Sunday. However, such latter issues are purely speculation and unrelated. 1 disc instead of 2 is just cool. (if truly possible, if truly utilized as such)

We shall see...

I hope Skogan is looking up why Blockbuster choosing BD as their rental choice is subject to an antitrust movement.

maybe it is new math, but how is 1500/5000 stores = 85% of B&M stores?

maybe it is new math, but how is 1500/5000 stores = 85% of B&M stores?

I think it was supposed to be something like of stores that carry HD media 85% will carry only BD, and it didn't work.

maybe it is new math, but how is 1500/5000 stores = 85% of B&M stores?

1450 / 1700 = 85%?

I think they're just talking about the stores that carry HD.

We are all going to pay for your 'Who's got the bigger..." mentality. You, my dear sir, are the real minority, and you have somehow been alllowed to speak for the rest of us, the real majority.

Money talks.

I think it's only a problem for the FTC where the terms of a deal are made more lucrative to a dominant market player, to the disadvantage of their competitors, where the agreed result would compromise consumer choice.

That's the layman's terms outline. And in this instance, it may be relevant...

If BB coincidentally gets Sony Pictures exclusive releases, at the expense of their competitors, there are potentially going to be a few questions...


Give it a rest. I hope my tax dollars are used for better things than investigating Sony's relationship with Blockbuster Video. OOO the Weinstein brothers have an exclusivity agreement with Blockbuster somebody call 1-800-LAWYER.

If I own a candy store and I don't like Hershey prodcuts(and I don't) then I don't have to sell Hershey products. Go to any grocery store and check out what they do with shelf space. Who cares if there are questions.

I don't know, I think it will take whatever HD format wins a long time to unseat DVD and I think longer than DVD took to unseat VHS. The quality from VHS to DVD was huge. While the quality of HD Media against DVD is huge too, it isn't as huge as VHS to DVD. The quality is more apparent with larger displays, which frankly, not everyone has a large display to view movies on.


I don't think Blu-ray has to unseat DVD to succeed. There was no backwards compatibility with VHS when DVD came on to the scene. DVD had to replace VHS entirely. As prices continue to drop on players many manufacturers will simply be producing Blu-ray units and it will not require an entire conversion. Both formats can live harmoniously. Blu-ray will be more of a natural progression from DVD as opposed to something that will supplant it. This is a very different scenario.

That wasn't possible for HD DVD and Blu-ray because of opposing camps and duplication of what is essentially the same end result. Eventually all discs produced will be high definition except for the most obscure material and even then, it will be compatible with your Blu-ray player. Digital downloads will proabably play an increasing role in the years to come but you will probably use your media center for that as well....that was and is Sony's vision.

I think they got this one right.

Give it a rest. I hope my tax dollars are used for better things than investigating Sony's relationship with Blockbuster Video. OOO the Weinstein brothers have an exclusivity agreement with Blockbuster somebody call 1-800-LAWYER.

If I own a candy store and I don't like Hershey prodcuts(and I don't) then I don't have to sell Hershey products. Go to any grocery store and check out what they do with shelf space. Who cares if there are questions.

Let them attack BD that way.

That's going to kill their 'underdog' movement, which is all they ever had.

If BD wins so be it, I have both, as I hedged my bets.

But, I also want BD ONLY folk to answer thesse questions, and be honest!

1. Come clean about Universal, if and when they go neutral, admit your going to buy a ton of movies from them right?. Your just bashing them now, because they support the other guy. Stop the "Universal has nothing I want" BS, its a lie, and I can understand because of the war. Time to come clean :D... Yes, good s*** here. Can't wait to see how fast the BD nay-sayers line up to buy the Bourne trilogy once all is said and done.

Yes, good s*** here. Can't wait to see how fast the BD nay-sayers line up to buy the Bourne trilogy once all is said and done.

I love a lot of the Universal titles, just haven't been tempted to add an additional player, now it looks like I may not have to. ;)

I'm not going to spin this as "good news" in any way for HD DVD. It isn't. It's bad press and it also is not good when any retailer (whatever the size) decides to back the other format exclusively.

However, I do agree with the HD folks that this is a shortsighted approach. While saying "70% of our rentals are blu-ray" sounds impressive, what are the total numbers we're dealing with? Because, as we've seen from the sales figures, the market is very small right now. To pick one side for rental only a year in with small adoption rates for HDM in general seems silly to me.


But, that being said -- and again, I'm not downplaying the negative press here -- we're dealing with a company lost over a billion dollars a year from 2002-2004. They've closed hundreds of stores. They posted a $46.4 million loss just for Q1 this year. They aren't the major player that they were back in the late 1990s... and the main place that are seeing any growth right now is on online rentals, where they are format-neutral.


Ultimately, I think that Blockbuster found that HD rentals were slower than anticipated and decided to stick with one format to (a) help end the war and (b) reduce stock requirements for a slow moving product. History will tell if this was the right move or not, but if they see any growth they're ignoring, this is a decision they can change quickly.

1450 / 1700 = 85%?

I think they're just talking about the stores that carry HD.

Slightly different than all B&M stores which is what the title implies.

I don't know, I think it will take whatever HD format wins a long time to unseat DVD and I think longer than DVD took to unseat VHS. The quality from VHS to DVD was huge. While the quality of HD Media against DVD is huge too, it isn't as huge as VHS to DVD. The quality is more apparent with larger displays, which frankly, not everyone has a large display to view movies on.

You are right about PQ advantage on many installed sets, but of course that was also true of many installed sets with DVD in 1998. More importantly (to non-HT enthustiasts) IMO is advanced interactivity for kids content, etc., (of course both formats can deliver this, but only one can be mass-adopted); while the HD-ness of the image and sound should help sell to people buying new TVs (or upgrading their home theaters), I still think it will be the new ways to experience/enjoy media content that will help drive adoption in the long run with other consumers. Who cares if you notice how much better the PQ is if your kids can get even more hours of enjoyment from The Little Mermaid?

To keep it on topic, I thought it was funny that BB carried PS3 games and didn't carry BD movies, due to the fact that every person who rents PS3 games is a potential BD customer. This is an excellent, excellent point - and it truly speaks to the fact that Blockbuster is not IN ACTUALITY an "evil" company here, "acting way too early", and under-handedly willing to accept backdoor bribes from the Sony empire - but rather a sane and honest business trying to help their company. Let's let the company bashing, negativity, and conspiracy theories die.

If you want to blame somebody, you can blame Sony for putting BD in the PS3 but then again shouldn't we now be at the point where we can freely admit that apparently Sony made a good general long-term business decision with that move?

Give that man a Ceegar!

This is absolutely correct - and HERE is a company that cares about it's customers. A very smart take on the market.

IMV, BBs deal reeks of a deal, and shoves their hairy back into the faces of customers - many of whom also rent DVDs.

But blockbuster is still renting titles online? How are these two different?? They will offer the same exact service. How many B&M stores does zip.ca have???

my friends

this certainly is an interesting thread but there are two areas best we stay away from:

-attacking another member for any reason

-implying there is illegal activity: not the stuff for AVS: take it to a legal forum but not here

Thank you

Well as a long time blockbuster customer, I will now cancel my membership and probably go with netflix.

I will never ever buy blu-ray. If HD DVD suddenly dies, I will be happy with Xbox Live HD marketplace before I will buy BD.

As a side note, Blockbuster really should have a way to easily find which stores have HD DVD (franchise stores) on their website. The fact that they don't is pathetic.

why do you take this format war way too personal? saying that you will never buy a blu-ray movie even if it wins this format war. what rational explanation do you have to hate a format so much?

I don't know if this is of any relevance at all (probably not) but Crutchfield suddenly has the Toshiba HD-A2 in stock; the one I bought for $199 that was back-ordered to June 26th was invoiced today for shipping, eight days early. So this could mean:

1. Toshiba is suddenly increasing its shipments of HD DVD players.
2. Crutchfield coincidentally got its HD-A2s in earlier than expected.
3. Absolutely nothing.

Ultimately, I think that Blockbuster found that HD rentals were slower than anticipated and decided to stick with one format to (a) help end the war and (b) reduce stock requirements for a slow moving product. History will tell if this was the right move or not, but if they see any growth they're ignoring, this is a decision they can change quickly.

Nah, like I was saying earlier, I think the BD v. HD was the 1st round of the of the playoffs. It wasn't about short-term profit. Now the next round begins, which is to get pricing in check with mass adopters.

Of course, I'd be very pleased if HD discovered a little luck of the Irish. But with Tosh leading the way, it's highly unlikely. They have been less than stellar overall IMO.

Indeed, and he didn't reply to my Private Messages asking about his comments on the other forum, either. .

Welcome to the Internet. I regularly read other forums that are in "competition" to my own and there's plenty of people who gripe about mine and others. Some are more balanced about it than others, but hey, if they want to spend their time there doing that, more power to them. I'd rather they take their complaints and issues directly to me, but they don't. Unlike my forum and a lot of others, AVS doesn't offer a true feedback/gripe area to try and hash things out with the staff. It's all in PM's and behind closed doors which just pushes a lot of people away for a number of reasons.

Yes, good s*** here. Can't wait to see how fast the BD nay-sayers line up to buy the Bourne trilogy once all is said and done.

Probably a lot - I myself am going to grab Serenity, I know that much. But somehow I think Universal BD sales that will quickly blow past their existing HD DVD sales will serve as cold comfort to those accusing BD fans of being disingenuous in their lack of Universal interest. It says something I think that of all the dual-format releases to date in the top 20 movies list, the only one in which HD surpasses Blu-ray is Planet Earth (out of eight), and the only three HD DVD exclusives on the list period are Batman, Serenity, and Troy (vs nine for BD).

I don't know if this is of any relevance at all (probably not) but Crutchfield suddenly has the Toshiba HD-A2 in stock; the one I bought for $199 that was back-ordered to June 26th was invoiced today for shipping, eight days early. So this could mean:

1. Toshiba is suddenly increasing its shipments of HD DVD players.
2. Crutchfield coincidentally got its HD-A2s in earlier than expected.
3. Absolutely nothing.

It could also mean that they suddenly had a lot of order cancellations today. It may be one of your suggestions, or a 5th we haven't thought of, but there was an obvious one you hadn't mentioned (especially in light of someone already saying in this very thread they had cancelled their order).

But blockbuster is still renting titles online? How are these two different?? They will offer the same exact service. How many B&M stores does zip.ca have???

This is a PR battle more than anything else. Now the media have latched onto the notion that BBI has washed its hands of HD. That's all it takes to lose a war sometimes.

Just an ineresting side note: Sony and Toshiba's stock are both down about 31 cents today and Netflix and Blockbuster are up about 31 cents.

Wall Street hasn't decided who will win yet.

The difference?

The difference is this:
Optical media is mechanical. It require movement to function. This concept is on the way out.

Other methods of HD acquisition and storage, including downloads and non-mechanical storage are the future. End of story.

I'm surprised so many don't get this. It's not that people don't "get this" - it's just that people don't agree. We like our "requiring movement to function" machines and we like our physical media that takes up space on the shelf - and we see that our families and friends, by and large, like it too. So that along with the other technical difficulties needed for mass on-demand delivery make it hard for one to convince many of us that physical "stuff" won't be around and still prefered in some form for a long, long time.

I still think it will be the new ways to experience/enjoy media content that will help drive adoption in the long run with other consumers. Who cares if you notice how much better the PQ is if your kids can get even more hours of enjoyment from The Little Mermaid?

I don't know, I don't put too much stock into interactivity. DVD has plenty of extra features that I know I don't use. I just want the movie with the best picture and sound possible. For kids, well, that's why there are video game consoles. That will entertain them for hours upon hours. lol. That's why for me I don't care about BD Live or what have you, if I get into that format one day it will be because I want the best picture and sound possible, for now I have that with HD-DVD but if that fails completely then I'll go with Blu-Ray but only for the picture and sound. But for the average joe, it's going to take a lot for them to buy into an HD format, so either way mass adoption of whatever format is going to take more time than many expect.

Apparently you need to read the follow up posts.

Didn't you say you had reasons for not posting here anymore, anyway? So you come here just to take a shot at me? How nice. Thanks for supporting our page view count.

Well, admittedly, there's a ton of posts here, but even still I didn't think your follow-up posts really said much else that really mattered.

But yeah, I had reasons for not posting here for awhile. But I was still reading various posts during all of that. I'm probably reading/posting less now that my account is active once again. I spend more of my time in other areas but still frequent here.

Or would you rather that people who just take shots at others not be here? I'm sure we could empty out several of these subforums pretty quickly.

I've always stated I wanted Universal titles. I hope they come over to blu-ray so I can pick some titles up.

Originally Posted by Monty22001:
"Yes, I think people will appreciate the one with 1 disc." its more convenient ya, but i think people are making the multi disk issue bigger than it is for video games Yes, this is true too. Absolutely.

they will continue to rent online and so will netflix. do you really think its worth it to drive to a store and spend $5-10 for gas (both ways picking it up and returning it) when you can just get it in the mail? its a last ditch effort for blockbuster before their b&m rental stores go obsolete and downloads and mail rentals become the next big thing.

they will continue to rent online and so will netflix. do you really think its worth it to drive to a store and spend $5-10 for gas (both ways picking it up and returning it) when you can just get it in the mail? its a last ditch effort for blockbuster before their b&m rental stores go absolute and downloads and mail rentals become the next big thing.

$5-10 in gas?! Holy crap, what on earth do you drive?

Got to face the facts gas isnt gonna get any cheaper and its becoming way cheaper and convenient with online renting/buying.

I am sure this summer we will see $4 a gallon prices this summer and $5 next summer...

This is an excellent, excellent point - and it truly speaks to the fact that Blockbuster is not IN ACTUALITY an "evil" company here, "acting way too early", and under-handedly willing to accept backdoor bribes from the Sony empire - but rather a sane and honest business trying to help their company. Let's let the company bashing, negativity, and conspiracy theories die.

If you want to blame somebody, you can blame Sony for putting BD in the PS3 but then again shouldn't we now be at the point where we can freely admit that apparently Sony made a good general long-term business decision with that move?

Amen to that :)

Ok, here a theory a buddy I were just talking about, considering we been around the CE industry for about 20 years each...

Is it possible Toshiba knew this was coming, and the price cuts that have been instituted the past couple of months are just a fire sale to move all of the players they're sitting on?

Just something to chew on.

fitprod

...Rather sad if this thing gets decided by a gaming console.

Not sad at all. Many of us had it wrong and Sony had the vision. It performed out-of-the box better than Toshiba's HD A1 as a stand alone player. It is a media center not a game console. I have rarely played a game but I am very happy to have that ability as well.

This is a PR battle more than anything else. Now the media have latched onto the notion that BBI has washed its hands of HD. That's all it takes to lose a war sometimes.


Completely agree. But I have to say this is the first time that HD optical media has made the news and people have talked about it. People at work were talking about how there is a replacement to DVD called Blu-ray. People were actually talking about this crap in a place other than AVSFORUM or DVDTALK or HOMETHEATERFORUM.

My friend who I just convinced to switch over to blockbuster based on in-store returns called me this afternoon while i was on the bus, he asked, "Dude, will i be able to get normal DVDs still? What is Blu-Ray they say it gives better picture on this blockbuster news I'm watching??" The words gotten out folks.

This is indeed the HD-shot heard 'round the world....

Is it possible Toshiba knew this was coming, and the price cuts that have been instituted the past couple of months are just a fire sale to move all of the players they're sitting on?

If it were actually a "fire sale", I might agree with you that this was possible... but they're running movie theater and television ads, offering a 5-film mail-in rebate, etc.

It isn't a clearance, it's a promotion for a growing format. If they were actually "dumping" the machines, they could just stop making them and let the supply dry up... it would have happened quickly enough on its own.

$5-10 in gas?! Holy crap, what on earth do you drive?
Some people have got to drive quiet a ways just to get to their nearest rental store.
The nearest one by me is 4 miles away so a round trip will be close to a gallon of gas and plus wear and tear and mileage on the car which really isn't needed. Its actually cheaper now to PPV them on cable.

Originally Posted by Penton-Man:
"Oh, one thing that you will not find in the piece is that when Rich Peterson visited SPE in CALIFORNIA........... is that his wife accompanied him, who in fact was a delight to meet. I won't "drop" her name."Who are you???? You are obviously well connected. Hahaha, LMFAO. Somebody made a irrelevant comment about the nuttiness of name dropping (regarding a different post) at the start of this thread and who knew that it would turn out to be something that was relevant in this thread after all...

My question is will blockbuster do like back in the DVD infancy days and allow users to rent a BD machine before putting down $500+ dollars.

I don't know if this is of any relevance at all (probably not) but Crutchfield suddenly has the Toshiba HD-A2 in stock; the one I bought for $199 that was back-ordered to June 26th was invoiced today for shipping, eight days early. So this could mean:

1. Toshiba is suddenly increasing its shipments of HD DVD players.
2. Crutchfield coincidentally got its HD-A2s in earlier than expected.
3. Absolutely nothing.


I'm sure a large number of people who had ordered the HD-A2 and had it placed on backorder suddenly cancelled their orders based on this "bad news" for HD-DVD. It is only common sense this has happened not only on crutchfield bbut on amazon as well and many people will be getting their HD-A2 earlier to stave off any more cancellations. These companies don't want you to cancel so it is to their benefit to get the player out to you as quickly as possible..

I'm sure a large number of people who had ordered the HD-A2 and had it placed on backorder suddenly cancelled their orders based on this "bad news" for HD-DVD.

And I'm equally sure that they didn't. So where does that leave us?

Got to face the facts gas isnt gonna get any cheaper and its becoming way cheaper and convenient with online renting/buying.

I am sure this summer we will see $4 a gallon prices this summer and $5 next summer...
So how many of you see it convenient and smart to drive to the local rental store and spend this much on gas? and put mileage on your car and wear/tear.
We all know gas is very unstable as far as price goes. and it can and will go higher in price. Why do you think microsoft wants to be the leader in downloads? Cause that is the future No Ifs about it.....The format to win this war if any do will only last as long as it takes for broadband speeds to pick up. Shhh wouldnt it be smart if microsoft made a deal with verizon to make fiber optic fioz even cheaper and more availble so downloads become the things asap?

And I'm equally sure that they didn't. So where does that leave us?

Well considering I see people in multiple threads now cancelling their HD-DVD player orders it pretty much leaves you with nothing unless you can demonstrate posts of the opposite.

Either way who in their right mind would buy an HD-DVD player now? Who wants to end up with an expensive boat anchor? I just don't see how supporting HD-DVD is even worth it anymore. Now you sacrifice your own convenience with local rentals by owning it. I guess if that's worth it to make a "statement" than to each his own, but I like the fact that this thread demonstrates most people even on AVS just want the war to be over and for us to move on with our lives. Any announcement that is made that demonstrates what our next HD format will be is great news for movie and HD lovers. If you backed the wrong format so what, just put it up on eBay and move on. I still don't see how anyone couldn't see the writing on the wall from the very beginning though, given the incredible discrepency in studio and electronics and PC backing, and given that the format with all of these advantages also had the trojan horse while the other did not.

And I'm equally sure that they didn't. So where does that leave us?


I cancelled my XA2 order today from VE, I think I see the writing on the wall. I will wait this war out a little longer until I see a clear winner but unfontunatly I see BR winning. I will not buy a Sony player but a Panny.

Rob

Not sad at all. Many of us had it wrong and Sony had the vision. It performed out-of-the box better than Toshiba's HD A1 as a stand alone player. It is a media center not a game console. I have rarely played a game but I am very happy to have that ability as well.


Agreed, the PS3 is one of the best pieces of CE ever made and it is a god darn still at $600. I love mine and use it for everything. I reccomend anyone thinking of getting into HD-DVD save their money to get a PS3. Once again it's not a toy. It's not even designed to look liek a toy. It's a mans machine

70% of Blockbuster HDDVD sales were Blu-ray


why would they continue to waste there time and $$$ supporting HD-DVD?



Pirates, Fantastic 4, Spiderman, Pixar, ALL DISNEY movies exclusive, LMAO @ anyone surprised buy this

Well considering I see people in multiple threads now cancelling their HD-DVD player orders it pretty much leaves you with nothing unless you can demonstrate posts of the opposite.

Either way who in their right mind would buy an HD-DVD player now? Who wants to end up with an expensive boat anchor? I just don't see how supporting HD-DVD is even worth it anymore. Now you sacrifice your own convenience with local rentals by owning it. I guess if that's worth it to make a "statement" than to each his own, but I like the fact that this thread demonstrates most people even on AVS just want the war to be over and for us to move on with their lives. Any announcement that is made that demonstrates what our next HD format probably is is great news for movie and HD lovers.

Cause it upconverts dvds better then the ps3 :p lol why would anyone use any player though as a boat anchor?

I will say that just as equally that it got people to cancell their orders it also got them to buy new ones to support hd dvd.

Completely agree. But I have to say this is the first time that HD optical media has made the news and people have talked about it. People at work were talking about how there is a replacement to DVD called Blu-ray. People were actually talking about this crap in a place other than AVSFORUM or DVDTALK or HOMETHEATERFORUM.

My friend who I just convinced to switch over to blockbuster based on in-store returns called me this afternoon while i was on the bus, he asked, "Dude, will i be able to get normal DVDs still? What is Blu-Ray they say it gives better picture on this blockbuster news I'm watching??" The words gotten out folks.

This is indeed the HD-shot heard 'round the world....

Shot heard round the world huh :)

I think Blu-Ray was following the good old mantra with a slight twist...

"Don't shoot until you see the red's in their eyes." And now we know they waited until the right time, which was just after this whole $100 off promotion and mini-surge HD-DVD was having the past couple weeks...

70% of Blockbuster HDDVD sales were Blu-ray


why would they continue to waste there time and $$$ supporting HD-DVD?



Pirates, Fantastic 4, Spiderman, Pixar, ALL DISNEY movies exclusive, LMAO @ anyone surprised buy this

To make people who bought HD DVD happy of course, what, are they trying to run a business or something?

At the very least, that's 1700 new BD players sold. :)
They'll probably just offer to rent a PS3 though - does the job.

The Blockbuster that already has Blu-Ray movie's close to my house already rent's out Blu-Ray players. I think they have two of them and probably will order more after all this...

Remember these two words?: "CED videodiscs".

http://www.cedmagic.com/selectavision.html

I'll bet people who bought CED were very angry when Laserdisc prevailed as the first successful consumer videodisc format. Out of anger, some of them probably refused to ever buy Laserdisc as a result. I wonder if those people ever bought into DVD...

It is not unprecendented for consumers who have bought into a format to end up having to buy something else. Other examples include Betamax, Laserdisc, 8-Tracks, and MiniDisc. Although I'm just now clearing out my Laserdiscs, as the format had legs for longer than I ever expected.

The end result of the loss of those formats was the emergence of widespread movie title releases on the successful formats. In that respect, everyone got something good eventually. Millions who refused to buy into Beta, CED or LaserDisc enjoyed VHS for years on end. Those who abandoned VHS for DVD are currently enjoying its benefits.

Nothing personal. I feel sorry for those who are angry about what appears to be a big victory for Blu-ray. I understand their frustration. I have invested in Blu-ray so I'm personally hopeful HD-DVD tapers off as painlessly as possible so we can all enjoy decades of great BD titles.

I find this blockbuster stuff funny because it will piss off people who may have wanted to rent hd dvd from them and now they will give their business to other rental places or maybe just buy. Obviously it is good news for the blu ray supporting companies.

On some unrelated topcis:

- I think the HD download/on demand stuff is lame and that may be the future but it is so many years away it isn't worth talking about now. Simple fact- most do not have broadband and I fail to see how they will suddenly get most having quick enough access to handle this type of service. EVEN IF they did the price would be a lot and many would not want it. Sorry but it ain't happening for at least 10 years. Plus, many people LIKE owning the actual physical media.

The problem I think is people look at the MP3/CD thing and assume movies are the same way....they aren't. Totally diff industries since you do not watch movies when working out or whatever which is where Mp3 really makes things easy for most. Plus huge diff between a a few MB song and a few GB movie.

-I do not get going on about how blockbuster shoudl be sued or charged or whatever. if blockbusters wishes to support one format then it is their choice. If you do not like it then don't give them business. SIMPLE. What is with the American mentality of having to sue everyone and crying about things like this as if you are being held down and raped? You are not forced to support blockbuster or any company that cheeses you off. Sheesh.

-I do not get the format zealotry. How can anyone say they would refuse to buy the "other" format even if the one they prefer/support dies off? Why would any logcial perosn deprive themselves of great quality for no real reason? Weird.

Anyway, I do not care about the blockbuster thing as I do not use blockbuster (I use zip.ca here) and even if I did I have both formats so wouldn't care much...but I can see how it would annoy some although again, if you don't like it then don't give them your business. THEY are the ones that will lose the business, not you. Sheesh.

I will say that just as equally that it got people to cancell their orders it also got them to buy new ones to support hd dvd.

Either you have more faith than me in people's altruistic motives, or you are in denial of the fact that most people want to avoid wasting money (even if it's only a perceived loss of money).

But do you think their gonna add something new and spend so much money on it and not pass the cost to the consumers?

people often accuse me of being a blu-ray fanboy, but honestly all i was trying to do was save people who were sinking money into hd-dvd from losing their investment. its frustrating though, trying to get the point across. some people just don't want to see what should be obvious, and that is that hd-dvd was doomed from the start.

-I do not get the format zealotry. How can anyone say they would refuse to buy the "other" format even if the one they prefer/support dies off? Why would any logcial perosn deprive themselves of great quality for no real reason? Weird.



Agreed. I doubt any rational Home Theater enthusiast will deny himself/herself watching HD movies. I certainly would have bought into HD-DVD at one point if blu-ray withered away.



---
So Blockbuster got trojaned and HD-DVD got knocked up err I mean out?

At least HD-DVD has one thing going for it. The news story hasn't appeared on Drudgereport yet...

Then why did people go gaga over Con Air, Hellboy,etc in the blu forums?

How old is old?


I was speaking from a mainstream consumers point of view. Usually only the obsessive "fan-boy" type would double, triple dip on a movie, just to have it on every single format. The casual viewer/consumer could care less.. just look at the weak sales of the matrix on hd-dvd. Those movies have been run into the ground. Why would anyone other than a fan buy that stuff again, and again...and again...you get the point.

some people just don't want to see what should be obvious, and that is that hd-dvd was doomed from the start.

No, it wasn't doomed. It did have a very large hole to crawl out of, and I think that has been missed by some people who jumped on the bandwagon in mid 2006 when Blu-ray was suffering from some really stupid mis-steps. Anyways, people thinking this announcement is going to help sell HD DVD players are...not correct. I don't know any other way to put it without appearing to attack the poster rather than the post.

No, it wasn't doomed. It did have a very large hole to crawl out of, and I think that has been missed by some people who jumped on the bandwagon in mid 2006 when Blu-ray was suffering from some really stupid mis-steps. Anyways, people thinking this announcement is going to help sell HD DVD players are...not correct. I don't know any other way to put it without appearing to attack the poster rather than the post.

I just hope the Samsung dual player doesn't start out over $1,200. Even at 1k my wife will start asking some serious questions, what with the stupid 1k spent on the XA2.

Welcome to the Internet. I regularly read other forums that are in "competition" to my own and there's plenty of people who gripe about mine and others. Some are more balanced about it than others, but hey, if they want to spend their time there doing that, more power to them. I'd rather they take their complaints and issues directly to me, but they don't.Thanks for agreeing with my point. It would have been nice to deal with issues directly instead of having others direct me to your forum where apparently there is no problem with AVS being accused of having a vested interest or connection with HD DVD or Microsoft, both of which are patently untrue. Like I said earlier, we get as many complaints about which way we are 'biased' from one side as the other.

AVS doesn't offer a true feedback/gripe area to try and hash things out with the staff. It's all in PM's and behind closed doors which just pushes a lot of people away for a number of reasons.Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but I'd like to point out our approach has worked well enough for us to be the largest and most popular forum of this type on the Internet.

I wish you well with your forum.

70% of Blockbuster HDDVD sales were Blu-ray


why would they continue to waste there time and $$$ supporting HD-DVD?



Pirates, Fantastic 4, Spiderman, Pixar, ALL DISNEY movies exclusive, LMAO @ anyone surprised buy this


You shouldn't name Fantastic 4 when trying to make a point. On second note....I wouldn't rent HD-DVD's from Blockbuster even if they were there. The chances of the discs actually playing a month after release would be pretty much 0.

well. I'm not going to spend $500 on a blu ray player, so my business after over 10 years with BBuster is going to netflix...if they don't want my business then I don't want their service...it is either my HD DVD player or download!

Cause it upconverts dvds better then the ps3 :p

According to the DVD Secrets guys, the best HD player for upconverting dvds is the new Samsung 1200.

I wouldn't rent HD-DVD's from Blockbuster even if they were there. The chances of the discs actually playing a month after release would be pretty much 0.

another big advantage of Blu-ray in the rental market, even over DVD. they'll hold up much better to J6P's abuse, thanks to the hard coating technology.

You shouldn't name Fantastic 4 when trying to make a point.

Or name things that haven't even been released yet. If the (short) history of HD media has shown us anything, it's that promised titles doesn't necessarily equal released titles. "Pixar movies" are not released (or officially announced) yet. Let's not count chickens.

You shouldn't name Fantastic 4 when trying to make a point. On second note....I wouldn't rent HD-DVD's from Blockbuster even if they were there. The chances of the discs actually playing a month after release would be pretty much 0.

I wonder blu-ray's being much more durable factored in to BB's decision as well.

well. I'm not going to spend $500 on a blu ray player, so my business after over 10 years with BBuster is going to netflix...if they don't want my business then I don't want their service...it is either my HD DVD player or download!
What "IF" ipod comes out with a cheap 500 gig version of hte ipod something say $400 or cheaper and you can play high def media on it and hook it up via hdmi to your equipment? that would be a big stab at both hd dvd and blu ray. especially since you can pretty much download any hd dvd movie or blu ray movie now.

The difference?

The difference is this:
Optical media is mechanical. It require movement to function. This concept is on the way out.

Other methods of HD acquisition and storage, including downloads and non-mechanical storage are the future. End of story.

I'm surprised so many don't get this.

I'm surprised that you don't understand that this is opinion stated, by you, as fact....which is what you were complaining about others doing earlier in this thread regarding the format war. I think that is the point that Josh was making.

I'm surprised that you don't understand that this is opinion stated, by you, as fact....which is what you were complaining about others doing earlier in this thread regarding the format war. I think that is the point that Josh was making.
Well look what happened to the music industry.
The future is downloads. I give blu ray or hd dvd 4 years tops

For anyone thinks this is a "blow" to HD DVD or that Blockbuster has made a solid decision that they won't go back on, I encourage you to listen to the truth, directly from the mouth of the Blockbuster COO:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=383736735&play=1

Well look what happened to the music industry.
The future is downloads. I give blu ray or hd dvd 4 years tops

Thank you very much for your opinion.

Either way who in their right mind would buy an HD-DVD player now? Who wants to end up with an expensive boat anchor?

I've had my HD-DVD player for a week and am fully within the return timeframe. It's not going back. The A2 is the best non-Faroudja based upconverter in my ~$200 price range, and who the heck knows how long it's going to take for Blu-Ray players to become affordable. As many have already pointed out, a Blu-Ray win at this stage does not mean champagne falls from the heavens and people go buy Blu-Ray in droves. For many of us, it means we sit on our hands and wait for affordable hardware. I may even <gasp> buy more HD-DVDs to tide me over! I've got about 2 dozen "dead" high-res audio discs that I enjoy on a regular basis too (and even continue to buy when the odd new release is available).

maybe it is new math, but how is 1500/5000 stores = 85% of B&M stores?
I've asked that the title be changed also.

I think there was a misguided post earlier which stated that BB was 85% of the rental market, when it is actually 29%. It was corrected later, but the title remains.

The 1,450 stores don't equal 85% of Blockbuster's stores, let alone 85% of brick and mortar rental stores.

The title is just plain wrong...

Anyways, people thinking this announcement is going to help sell HD DVD players are...not correct. I don't know any other way to put it without appearing to attack the poster rather than the post.

Of course it won't. But it isn't a deathblow either. Reading these threads in a few years is going to be hilarious.

The Fifth Element is released and looks terrible:
BLU-RAY IS STILLBORN!

CES BD announcements and lack of Q1 HD DVD titles:
HD DVD IS DEAD!

Tons of BD cancelled titles, price drops on Toshibas, Universal announcements:
BD IS ON THE ROPES!

Blockbuster makes a decision to "initially" (that's the term the COO used) go with blu-ray:
HD DVD IS A SINKING SHIP!


Folks -- there are going to be ups and downs (for *both* sides) throughout this entire process... which will take at least another 12-24 months before we see any clarity. None of these small blips on the radar are anything to get worked up about.

What "IF" ipod comes out with a cheap 500 gig version of hte ipod something say $400 or cheaper and you can play high def media on it and hook it up via hdmi to your equipment? that would be a big stab at both hd dvd and blu ray. especially since you can pretty much download any hd dvd movie or blu ray movie now.

Then I would need ten of them to contain my current HD movie library. $4000 for players and movies cost extra? No thanks.

people often accuse me of being a blu-ray fanboy, but honestly all i was trying to do was save people who were sinking money into hd-dvd from losing their investment. its frustrating though, trying to get the point across. some people just don't want to see what should be obvious, and that is that hd-dvd was doomed from the start.

Oh how kind of you, you were trying to help the poor HDDVD owners? silly me :rolleyes:

You are correct, 1% of the consumers have spoken! Blu-ray is the overwhelming prefernce... well they have 67% of that 1% anyway. Of course, the other 99% don't want Blu-ray or HD DVD at these prices.

I'm not really sure what you think is going to happen. Do you think we're going to throw away our HD DVD players because you want us to cut our losses? Do you expect us to stop getting movies for HD DVD because you don't like that format?

In other words, just what the hell is the point of so many BD supporters asking HD DVD supporters to give in? What realistically do you want us to do - because if it's what I think it is I'm going to laugh at you...

For one, stop delaying the envitiable and accept that Blu ray is the format of choice. I didn't suggest for you to throw away the players, you can still use them, but it seems that the HD-DVD supporters would like this war to continue and bring down both formats instead of standing by a unified format to battle DVD so we can get mass adoption. It's been stated many times that having two competing formats is bad for adoption by the mass consumer.

I don't think this thread needs to be a sticky anymore.

Then I would need ten of them to contain my current HD movie library. $4000 for players and movies cost extra? No thanks.
So you would want to watch all of those movies at one time? you just cant delete one that is saved to your computer and then later restore it if you wanted?

you do know you can get 500 gigs for about $100 now.

For one, stop delaying the envitiable and accept that Blu ray is the format of choice. I didn't suggest for you to throw away the players, you can still use them, but it seems that the HD-DVD supporters would like this war to continue and bring down both formats instead of standing by a unified format to battle DVD so we can get mass adoption. It's been stated many times that having two competing formats is bad for adoption by the mass consumer.

And, with 1.6 million titles sold on BD and 1.2 million titles sold on HD DVD, it's a bit presumptuous to assume -- with such a small delta on such a small number of sales -- that HD DVD owners should "accept" that BD is the format of choice.

No choice has been made yet, by studios, retailers, or consumers. I could just as easily make the same argument that people should stop buying BDs so that HD DVD can battle (or combine with) standard DVD for mass adoption.

Of course it won't. But it isn't a deathblow either. Reading these threads in a few years is going to be hilarious.

The Fifth Element is released and looks terrible:
BLU-RAY IS STILLBORN!

CES BD announcements and lack of Q1 HD DVD titles:
HD DVD IS DEAD!

Tons of BD cancelled titles, price drops on Toshibas, Universal announcements:
BD IS ON THE ROPES!

Blockbuster makes a decision to "initially" (that's the term the COO used) go with blu-ray:
HD DVD IS A SINKING SHIP!


Folks -- there are going to be ups and downs (for *both* sides) throughout this entire process... which will take at least another 12-24 months before we see any clarity. None of these small blips on the radar are anything to get worked up about.

I agree with you here. This is just another volley in the format "war". More to come...from each side. But this was a pretty potent "volley"! ;)

maybe it is new math, but how is 1500/5000 stores = 85% of B&M stores?

It seems to me it should be 1,700/5,000 and of course that is nowhere near 85% either, closer to 34%.

Chris

For one, stop delaying the envitiable and accept that Blu ray is the format of choice. I didn't suggest for you to throw away the players, you can still use them, but it seems that the HD-DVD supporters would like this war to continue and bring down both formats instead of standing by a unified format to battle DVD so we can get mass adoption. It's been stated many times that having two competing formats is bad for adoption by the mass consumer.
mass adaptation wont happen ever.... its barely 1% now. I think either wont reach higher then 20% by then downloads will take over and destroy which ever is still around.

http://www.laddergames.com/images/hd-dvd_boat_anchor.gif

So, what are you trying to say here? That HD-DVD will hold it's place due to this news? That HD-DVD is a reliable or principal support? A large business that attracts customers and other businesses to a shopping center or mall? ;) If you wanted to be "funny", you should have put that on a picture of the Titanic.

If anything, that should have Blu Ray on there with the recent "OMG!!! Blockbuster news" :rolleyes:

1450 / 1700 = 85%?

I think they're just talking about the stores that carry HD.

All 1,700 will carry Blu-ray, so it is 34% of stores carry Blu-ray or 100% of stores carrying HD discs carry Blu-ray or 85% of stores carrying HD disc carry Blu-ray exclusively. It matters but it isn't the end of HD DVD, only Universal ending HD DVD exclusivity is conclusive in my opinion.

Chris

I agree with you here. This is just another volley in the format "war". More to come...from each side. But this was a pretty potent "volley"! ;)
What is funny yesterday before the news I was wondering to myself if only one had existed since the beginning would things be better. if prices where as low as they are now probably so but to dam many people are happy with their dvd players. why would anyone who is happy with what they got go out and buy something else? just cause ford/chevy come out with a better looking car doesn't mean all the people who bought their last model are gonna go sell it and buy the new one.

This point has probably been made at some point in the 38-ish pages of this thread... but this could be an opportunity for a studio (Universal? Warner?) to put a title out as a combo only -- no standard DVD. If Blockbuster doesn't want to stock additional formats, why not go after the standard def one and get the HD DVDs in stores?


I don't know much about the economics of whether they could ever pull this off (pressing millions of combos instead of millions of standard DVDs and a few thousand HD DVDS)... but it would be interesting. It also may (via volume) reduce the cost of combos to the point where they become more appealing for customers (instead of $40 titles that aren't tempting).

While I'm not a combo hater, I don't think they've ever been used effectively by studios. This seems like an opportunity to remedy that.

I've stated my reasons for preferring HD DVD many times in other threads.

3) Almost all titles released on HD DVD are using VC1, which is a fantastic codec. Most releases have class leading quality which makes them easy to accept as keepers.

4) Most releases on BD are in Mpeg - close to 70%, in fact. The quality is variable, and not what I expect or want from a next-gen purchase. While more releases are now arriving as AVC encodes, these are still not the majority of what is available on the BD format.

5) HD DVD delivered on quality, not talk.



Odd that none of these reasons are backed up in the reality of the discs.
One only need look at the reviews to see that. Blu-ray is ahead in consistent picture quality and audio quality and continues to distance itself from HD DVD in these two areas every month.

I will post the June 1st, 2007 numbers. If you'd like me to post what these were in April, March and January of this year then just say the word, but it shows that HD DVD has been caught up not just in sales, but quality as well.

HDD 159HD/198BD, HTS 159HD/190BD, HTF 43HD/71BD, UD 110HD/104BD, Talk 200HD/222BD
06.01.07
HD DVD PQ SQ TOTAL Blu-ray PQ SQ TOTAL
HighDef 3.97 3.67 3.82 HighDef 3.98 3.85 3.92
HTSpot 4.02 3.87 3.94 HTSpot 4.02 4.25 4.13
DVDTalk 3.69 3.51 3.60 DVDTalk 3.63 3.68 3.66
HTForum 4.15 3.82 3.99 HTForum 4.27 4.09 4.18
UpDisc 4.04 3.86 3.95 UpDisc 4.04 4.15 4.09
Totals 3.92 3.71 3.82 Totals 3.93 3.96 3.94

As per your previous statement that taken individually each site will show that HD DVD is better, you need only look at this chart to see what each individual's sites scores are.

Well look what happened to the music industry.
The future is downloads. I give blu ray or hd dvd 4 years tops

I'd be willing to bet a large sum of money you're wrong. Only time will tell though.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/swannihddvd061807.htm

I have nothing against HD-DVD supporters -- they can live in their fantasy world where red wins (I've noticed they tend to be rather optimistic, bordering on delusional, about HD-DVD's chances)-- HD-DVD can survive alongside as a niche format for all I care -- All I want is Universal onboard Blu-ray, and Blockbuster's move may help accomplish that. Thank you Blockbuster!

While I'm not a combo hater, I don't think they've ever been used effectively by studios. This seems like an opportunity to remedy that.

The day that happens is gonna be another day of endless threads by members to talk about how blu ray is a sinking boat just like its going on now with hd dvd anchor joke.

Sometimes I wish that threads like this would only anounce it and sticky it and lock it. and not allow for any responds or additional threads, it brings out the worst in anyone and looks bad for the forum.

For one, stop delaying the envitiable and accept that Blu ray is the format of choice. I didn't suggest for you to throw away the players, you can still use them, but it seems that the HD-DVD supporters would like this war to continue and bring down both formats instead of standing by a unified format to battle DVD so we can get mass adoption. It's been stated many times that having two competing formats is bad for adoption by the mass consumer.
I think that this war is the best thing that could have happened for consumers. The only thing that would have been better, is if it had been a fair fight with all of the studios releasing on both formats and all of the stores giving equal treatment to both formats. However, anyone thinking that there would have been this huge upsurge of Blu-ray player sales over the last year if Blu-ray had been the only format, is delusional. Sure, there would have been more of us HD DVD early adopters buying the players, but that's miniscule compared to the general public. The public would still have stayed away because the price of Blu-ray players would be way more than the average person would want to pay, and they would have remained higher due to the lack of competion from HD DVD. We have benefited greatly from this war. When I get a Blu-ray player it will be fully featured and a whole lot cheaper than if HD DVD did not exist. I can't understand why any informed person on this forum is buying a Blu-ray player today knowing that full spec players are coming very soon. And the people that are not informed that are buying Blu-ray players today should be very pissed once they realize that their player isn't fully featured. Just because the Blu-ray fanatics keep saying over and over that having two formats is a bad thing doesn't make it true.

Sorry, I did not know of this. I could not find it on their webpage.

~Josh

Let's try to just state facts in this threads. If you are not sure than don't post it.

Odd that none of these reasons are backed up in the reality of the discs.
I'll respond, despite my belief that your response was just another attempt to post your chart for the 3rd or 4th time in this thread.

You disagreed with only points 3, 4 and 5 - so I take it the rest of the 11 points were OK.

Regarding point 3 - it's fact. almost all HD DVD releases are in VC1, which has demonstrated a consistently better PQ than Mpeg2.

re: point 4 - it's fact. the majority, nearly 70%, of BD releases have been in Mpeg2, which has consistently shown lower quality, especially when combined with a single-layer disc. About 70% of BD releases are on a single layer disc, most of these in Mpeg2. In fact, around 50% of BD releases are both Mpeg2 and on a single layer disc.

re: point 5. It's my opinion, shared by others. BD did a lot of talking, but not enough delivery. HD DVD delivered, in spades, consistently.

As a anecdotal note, I only posted that list because someone asked me repeatedly why I preferred HD DVD. They are the reasons I prefer the format. One can argue with them till the cows come home, but they are still my reasons.

There are a lot of folks jumping all over this BB thing and using it as an opportunity to say the "war is over" or that "HD DVD is dead" or otherwise trying to make fun of HD DVD supporters, but at the end of the day, in 30 days, it'll mean a lot less.

BB is taking the position that many of their customers don't matter, which is always a big mistake, IMV...

So how many of you see it convenient and smart to drive to the local rental store and spend this much on gas? and put mileage on your car and wear/tear.


I can walk to both Blockbuster and Hollywood Video from my house (and incidentally they both carry both formats, though HV has more BDs than HD DVDs).

Being realistic, the model for video rental will not change overnight just because gas prices increase a few percent. No matter how much you might want them to.

And I'm equally sure that they didn't. So where does that leave us?

I dunno ... based on this news alone, I cancelled my A2 and XA2 orders (one for each room) and I just ordered every PS3 I could find online ... I'm sure there will be a huge demand for them now that Blockbuster is going to offer Blu-ray in an extra 1400 stores. Now I can sell all those extras PS3's on eBay for like 4 quadrillion dollars! :rolleyes:

re: point 4 - it's fact. the majority, nearly 70%, of BD releases have been in Mpeg2, which has consistently shown lower quality, especially when combined with a single-layer disc. About 70% of BD releases are on a single layer disc, most of these in Mpeg2. In fact, around 50% of BD releases are both Mpeg2 and on a single layer disc.


It seems that the average quality of HD DVD is consistantly dropping as Universal drags out tired catalogue releases.

Perhaps you should keep more up to date with the reviews and update your facts according to today instead of living in 2006.

To support your facts you need to present some evidence other than your 'everybody knows' approach. We don't know. What we see differs from your so called facts. Perhaps some kind of evidence is needed?

Like how Paramount is moving away from VC-1 towards AVC for their HD DVDs. Hows that for a fact.

There's probably one thing on which virtually everyone can agree, regardless of whether one thinks this Blockbuster announcement is a big event or a non-event: it can't be good for HD-DVD to have an entire news cycle dedicated to asking whether or not HD-DVD is done as a viable format.

I dunno ... based on this news alone, I cancelled my A2 and XA2 orders (one for each room) and I just ordered every PS3 I could find online ... I'm sure there will be a huge demand for them now that Blockbuster is going to offer Blu-ray in an extra 1400 stores. Now I can sell all those extras PS3's on eBay for like 4 quadrillion dollars! :rolleyes:

I assume this is a jest. There is no problem buying a PS3 (or at least had better not be since I am about to buy one for my son-in-law).

There's probably one thing on which virtually everyone can agree, regardless of whether one thinks this Blockbuster announcement is a big event or a non-event: it can't be good for HD-DVD to have an entire news cycle dedicated to asking whether or not HD-DVD is done as a viable format.

Exactly right.

And welcome to the forum! :)

I can walk to both Blockbuster and Hollywood Video from my house (and incidentally they both carry both formats, though HV has more BDs than HD DVDs).

Being realistic, the model for video rental will not change overnight just because gas prices increase a few percent. No matter how much you might want them to.
A few percent? not even 2 years ago was gas $2 a gallong now its over $3 a gallon that looks more like an increase of 50% imagine if in another 2 years it goes up 50% that will put gas at 5 a gallon and in the future even more unless things change.

Just cause you can walk to BB doesn't mean everyone else can. I wish i had it that easy

For anyone thinks this is a "blow" to HD DVD or that Blockbuster has made a solid decision that they won't go back on, I encourage you to listen to the truth, directly from the mouth of the Blockbuster COO:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=383736735&play=1

Thanks for posting the link to the interview video. Everyone here really ought to watch it.

The Blockbuster COO seems like a very decent and reasonable guy and actually listening to him speak leaves one with a completely different impression of this whole story compared to the somewhat sensational headlines.

Bradley

I'll respond, despite my belief that your response was just another attempt to post your chart for the 3rd or 4th time in this thread.

You disagreed with only points 3, 4 and 5 - so I take it the rest of the 11 points were OK.

Regarding point 3 - it's fact. almost all HD DVD releases are in VC1, which has demonstrated a consistently better PQ than Mpeg2.

re: point 4 - it's fact. the majority, nearly 70%, of BD releases have been in Mpeg2, which has consistently shown lower quality, especially when combined with a single-layer disc. About 70% of BD releases are on a single layer disc, most of these in Mpeg2. In fact, around 50% of BD releases are both Mpeg2 and on a single layer disc.

re: point 5. It's my opinion, shared by others. BD did a lot of talking, but not enough delivery. HD DVD delivered, in spades, consistently.

As a anecdotal note, I only posted that list because someone asked me repeatedly why I preferred HD DVD. They are the reasons I prefer the format. One can argue with them till the cows come home, but they are still my reasons.

There are a lot of folks jumping all over this BB thing and using it as an opportunity to say the "war is over" or that "HD DVD is dead" or otherwise trying to make fun of HD DVD supporters, but at the end of the day, in 30 days, it'll mean a lot less.

BB is taking the position that many of their customers don't matter, which is always a big mistake, IMV...

I am at pains to understand why people care so much about which format wins as long as one does and we get the content we want.

If I wake up tomorrow and Warners/Paramount/Disney/Fox are all supporting HD DVD exclusively and everyone agrees that the format war is now truly over and studios are going full-bore for HD DVD, I will sing a happy tune all the way to the electronics store to buy an HD DVD player.

I just hope that this BB news really is the tipping point.

Thanks for the welcome.

The Blockbuster CEO interview is worth watching, as are the analyst interviews later in the clip. The Blockbuster guy is very measured and does state that this format war is just at the start, etc. But, at the end of the day, his 1400+ stores will just have Blu-Ray and people will consider that this holiday season when they are making their minds up about which player format to buy, if they buy one at all.

This is an important point people need to take into consideration. and out of that 1 billion only 1% of that is from HD-DVD rentals... So for Blockbuster that 1% becomes 5% if you are looking at comparing quantity of rentals in comparison. What this shows is that Blockbusters growth rate for Blu-Ray adoption will be much larger, especially since in-store is still at a 4 to 1 ratio for sales. That means 75% of Blockbusters revenue is still made in-store. So you see Netflix has a long way to go to catch up and even if they continue to back HD-DVD it won't make much a difference...Can we interject real numbers into the discussion here?

BB's in store movie rental revenue for a semi-odd 13 week Q1 2007 was $683.6MM, down 9.6% from the same period a year ago. This factors out movie PRP and EVF revenue...we're talking pure rental, which is the proper conduit for comparison to Netflix.

Regardless of which side of the fence you stand, comparing apples to oranges does no one any good. In store movie rental--the topic of discussion here--represented ~46% of BB's revenue for Q1 2007, the lowest cut it's ever been, IIRC. Netflix continues to take rental share from BB, no matter how you slice it. Still, BB's online rental revenue was up a nice 112.7% Q1 2007 vs. Q1 2006...then again, that's the most expensive revenue growth they've ever had. :)

If it matters, BB's in store movie sales revenue faired almost as worse--down 7.3%. At the current rate of decline, sales of candy and tchochkies will eclipse sales of new/used movies at BB by the end of Q3 2007...maybe they should drop movie sales and just sell popcorn. :)

NOTE: I'm not picking on your post...only using it as a jumping point to add some real numbers to the discussion (I assume the above data hasn't yet found its way into the discussion here...I don't have time to read everything).

For anyone thinks this is a "blow" to HD DVD or that Blockbuster has made a solid decision that they won't go back on, I encourage you to listen to the truth, directly from the mouth of the Blockbuster COO:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=383736735&play=1

What I heard is that consumers overwhelmingly want Blu-ray right now. That sounds like a big blow to HD DVD. I also heard that they will be looking at their distribution over the next 12-18 months, which means this policy is probably going to stay until they evaluate next year sometime. That is what I got from the mouth of the COO.

Wow ... listen to the BlockBuster COO ...

"This is a nano-second in time ..."

"We need to wait for this to play out over the next 12-18 months ..."

"This decision does not preclude us from rolling out HD DVD ..."

Sounds like two different stories ... :confused:

What I heard is that consumers overwhelmingly want Blu-ray right now. That sounds like a big blow to HD DVD. I also heard that they will be looking at their distribution over the next 12-18 months, which means this policy is probably going to stay until they evaluate next year sometime. That is what I got from the mouth of the COO.
He never says overwhelmingly want blu ray.....

Wow ... listen to the BlockBuster COO ...

"This is a nano-second in time ..."

"We need to wait for this to play out over the next 12-18 months ..."

"This decision does not preclude us from rolling out HD DVD ..."

Sounds like two different stories ... :confused:
yep. peple like to add their own opinons and words to news reports in order to try and flip the story like the poster above you

who said that the coo said "overwhelming need for blu ray" even though he never says that.

another big advantage of Blu-ray in the rental market, even over DVD. they'll hold up much better to J6P's abuse, thanks to the hard coating technology.

I'm sure that the Blockbuster business analysts did substantial return on investment (ROI) analysis in coming to this decision. And I'm sure that Blockbuster's experience with HD-DVD disc durability (or lack thereof) affected the cost of maintaining the HD-DVD stock which in turn affected the ROI of the HD-DVD end of the HD business. This decision was nothing personal; just a cold, hard business decision driven by costs, revenues and consumer preference.

I would suspect that other major players in the video disc rental industry are running similar calculations as we speak. Any decisions they make will also be bottom line driven.

What I heard is that consumers overwhelmingly want Blu-ray right now. That sounds like a big blow to HD DVD. I also heard that they will be looking at their distribution over the next 12-18 months, which means this policy is probably going to stay until they evaluate next year sometime. That is what I got from the mouth of the COO.

Then obviously, what you heard and what he said were two different things ... which is apparently the crux of the issue here ... ;)

The HDdvd talking head was a bit clueless and had his facts wonky IMHO.
Did he say that in homes where people watch DVD's, Hddvd is outselling BD releases by 4 to 1..?!?!?
What fantasy world does he live in..?!?!

several posters here are...


they should really disclose this. lots of people trust this place unbiased opinions.

they should really disclose this. lots of people trust this place unbiased opinions.

That's the point of being a schill though, isn't it?

they should really disclose this. lots of people trust this place unbiased opinions.

If they are being paid by either side then, yes, they should disclose that. However, people here on AVS (and elsewhere) can be very quick to accuse someone of being an insider or a shill. My advice is: don't make an accusation unless you've got the proof to back it up. Otherwise it is gossip, rumor, and hearsay. As the mods always say, attack the information in the post, not the poster. Otherwise you greatly increase the chance of the thread being locked.

Bradley

Been away a couple days, and don't have the energy to read all the posts. My initial reaction:
1. BD studios are giving a BIG price break to Bb for this (very viral)
2. they're turning this into a Bb vs Netflix war and guess who will win
3. I can get both from Netflix - end of story

So how many of you see it convenient and smart to drive to the local rental store and spend this much on gas? and put mileage on your car and wear/tear.
We all know gas is very unstable as far as price goes. and it can and will go higher in price. Why do you think microsoft wants to be the leader in downloads? Cause that is the future No Ifs about it.....The format to win this war if any do will only last as long as it takes for broadband speeds to pick up. Shhh wouldnt it be smart if microsoft made a deal with verizon to make fiber optic fioz even cheaper and more availble so downloads become the things asap?

My Blockbuster is on my way to and from work. It's also where we do our grocery shopping. Like most smart consumers, we combine trips whereever possible.

If they are being paid by either side then, yes, they should disclose that. However, people here on AVS (and elsewhere) can be very quick to accuse someone of being an insider or a shill. My advice is: don't make an accusation unless you've got the proof to back it up. Otherwise it is gossip, rumor, and hearsay. As the mods always say, attack the information in the post, not the poster. Otherwise you greatly increase the chance of the thread being locked.

Bradley

my post was generic: it does not apply to any particular member.

btw i am watching the beach boys movie on hdnet right now and i bet theirs more people watching it then what both sides of hd dvd and blu ray will sell disc all month :) lol

this has gone too far

isnt that a personal attack? arent mods suppose to ban people for that or at least delete the post?

Report the post, the mods will take care of it ... they're busy busy folks though, so it might take them a bit to get to it. I'm sure they have real life stuff outside of AVS to deal with occasionally ... ;)

What I heard is that consumers overwhelmingly want Blu-ray right now. That sounds like a big blow to HD DVD. I also heard that they will be looking at their distribution over the next 12-18 months, which means this policy is probably going to stay until they evaluate next year sometime. That is what I got from the mouth of the COO.

You're hearing what you want to hear and not what was actually said. Try to shut off your bias for 2 minutes and listen again.

This is interesting (sorry if it is a repeat)


One thing that's worth noting here: The Weinstein Company has an exclusive 4-year rental arrangement with Blockbuster (click here (http://www.usatoday.com/money/media/2006-11-15-blockbuster-weinsteins_x.htm) for more on that), which means that this development could push The Weinsteins to go format neutral. Previously, they've released titles only on HD-DVD.

I guess companies involved with HD DVD can also make exclusive deals.

This particular one could indeed yield interesting results...

this has gone too far
I would take this as a big warning to all posters.

This format war really brings out the worst in all of us.
I don't care which side wins if it meant having a good priced player and software and more software available.

I own both so at least my money isn't invested in just one and have to start all over again.

Myself I favor blu ray's specs
but i favor hd dvd low stand alone prices

I would take this as a big warning to all posters.

This format war really brings out the worst in all of us.
I don't care which side wins if it meant having a good priced player and software and more software available.

I own both so at least my money isn't invested in just one and have to start all over again.

Myself I favor blu ray's specs
but i favor hd dvd low stand alone prices

Yup ... the 'neener neener neener' garbage really needs to stop ... it gets us no where fast ...

It's shocking how many of the posts are either off-topic or personal attacks..

I was actually very close to buying hd-dvd up until this morning. (my wife and I looked at players yesterday, and she was open to spending 300 on a hd-dvd player).

However, I feel the rental market is such a key element to the success of a format at this point, that I jumped back on the fence. (I would buy bluray if it wasn't for the fact that 500 is still too much for a player that I can get the wife to agree on).

For those hd-dvd fans that try to downplay the importance of this ("blockbuster isn't important anymore", "who cares about the rental market (B&M especially)") : Wake up and smell the coffee.. this IS important - it kept me from buying HDDVD, and I don't think I'm that special... also, I rent relatively rarely, though I probably will get BB total access (or what it's called) once I can afford a BluRay player.

Let's all just take a breath.
We're all in this together, believe it or not.

:)

It's shocking how many of the posts are either off-topic or personal attacks..

I was actually very close to buying hd-dvd up until this morning. (my wife and I looked at players yesterday, and she was open to spending 300 on a hd-dvd player).

However, I feel the rental market is such a key element to the success of a format at this point, that I jumped back on the fence. (I would buy bluray if it wasn't for the fact that 500 is still too much for a player that I can get the wife to agree on).

For those hd-dvd fans that try to downplay the importance of this ("blockbuster isn't important anymore", "who cares about the rental market (B&M especially)") : Wake up and smell the coffee.. this IS important - it kept me from buying HDDVD, and I don't think I'm that special... also, I rent relatively rarely, though I probably will get BB total access (or what it's called) once I can afford a BluRay player.

FWIW ... BB's Online Offering still carries HD DVD's ... but I understand that the Netflix Catalog (for BR and HD DVD) is larger anyways.

It's shocking how many of the posts are either off-topic or personal attacks..

I was actually very close to buying hd-dvd up until this morning. (my wife and I looked at players yesterday, and she was open to spending 300 on a hd-dvd player).

However, I feel the rental market is such a key element to the success of a format at this point, that I jumped back on the fence. (I would buy bluray if it wasn't for the fact that 500 is still too much for a player that I can get the wife to agree on).

For those hd-dvd fans that try to downplay the importance of this ("blockbuster isn't important anymore", "who cares about the rental market (B&M especially)") : Wake up and smell the coffee.. this IS important - it kept me from buying HDDVD, and I don't think I'm that special... also, I rent relatively rarely, though I probably will get BB total access (or what it's called) once I can afford a BluRay player.


Because of this news I cancelled my Toshiba XA2 and also jumped back on the fence. I had a great deal too from Value Electronics a forum sponsor. I will wait this out but it sure looks like BD is picking up steam. I am not a fanboy of either format but I refuse to buy a product that will be a paper weight in a year.

Rob

After a few sparse months of token Blu-Ray representation on the shelves, Blockbuster will make an announcement that their customers have not embraced Blu-Ray rentals, that neither format is ready for primetime, and that our customers have told us they prefer to have a wider variety of std-definition programming to select from. We recommend that for most customers, std def DVD will remain king.

Universal has some interesting options as well,

1.) Make the distribution of std-def DVD licensing contingent on taking a percentage as HD-DVD
2.) Make every std-def DVD a *combo* disk at the std def price, something they can easily do. HD-DVD afterall, is just an extension of the red laser technology, much cheaper to produce for profit than Blu-Ray disks.

What consumers could end up with, is Blu-Ray being the better format for rentals due to it's durability advantage (if it really has one), and HD-DVD being the better format for ownership since one side is std-def, the other HD and cheaper to own.

What's most interesting to me, is how Blockbuster has created headlines for itself without adding any actual inventory or spending any money to advertise. Will they back it up? I'm still waiting for them to make good on an earlier promise, "It's in stock, or it's free." <-- Good luck collecting on that one.

The future is format neutral.

It seems to me it should be 1,700/5,000 and of course that is nowhere near 85% either, closer to 34%.

Chris

Technically BBI has "over 8000 stores" according to it's latest 10Q.

Because of this news I cancelled my Toshiba XA2 and also jumped back on the fence. I had a great deal too from Value Electronics a forum sponsor. I will wait this out but it sure looks like BD is picking up steam. I am not a fanboy of either format but I refuse to buy a product that will be a paper weight in a year.

Rob

Well if you had a "great deal" I don't understand why you'd "jump back on the fence". You're doing yourself a disservice by not enjoying HD/BD content already out there...in fact you're doing the same darn thing I did with DVD, and I ended up 300+ titles behind in the race to a big collection LOL.

I'm still waiting for them to make good on an earlier promise, "It's in stock, or it's free." <-- Good luck collecting on that one.


Actually, I did take advantage of that a few times years ago in NYC...!
I stopped using BB when I was returned a game late in the box and was going to pay the late fee later. Within 3 weeks, they sent my overage to a collection agency!
For less than $10...!

Those BBB's...!

:)

Wow ... listen to the BlockBuster COO ...

"This is a nano-second in time ..."

"We need to wait for this to play out over the next 12-18 months ..."

"This decision does not preclude us from rolling out HD DVD ..."

Sounds like two different stories ... :confused:

The media are making up the story on the go, as they always do nowdays. Frequently the shoddy journalism is working against BD. Today it is working for it.

The nuance of the COO's statement won't be plastered all over the Internet. Damage done.

Gary

it kept me from buying HDDVD, and I don't think I'm that special...

Aw, buck up camper... you *are* special. ;)

Actually, I would say that the fact that you (a) are a poster here and (b) noticed the "news" on this today makes you more than a bit above the average consumer, if you were implying you were average.

I don't agree with your decision, but I understand it. Buying into either format at this stage has a degree of risk.

Universal has some interesting options as well,

1.) Make the distribution of std-def DVD licensing contingent on taking a percentage as HD-DVD
2.) Make every std-def DVD a *combo* disk at the std def price, something they can easily do. HD-DVD afterall, is just an extension of the red laser technology, much cheaper to produce for profit than Blu-Ray disks.

I don't think that Universal has the kind of leverage to pull off the first. (I don't think any studio does.) As for the second, wouldn't that raise their costs?

My .02: I planned on waiting for the format kampf to be resolved but decided to jump in because the PS3 was both a game console and a BD player. I don't think that I could have justified buying a stand-alone player at this point.

As someone who, one, already is signed up for the BB plan and, two, has expressed frustration at the unavailability of BD discs, the prospect of getting them at my local BB is welcome news.

The media are making up the story on the go, as they always do nowdays. Frequently the shoddy journalism is working against BD. Today it is working for it.

The nuance of the COO's statement won't be plastered all over the Internet. Damage done.

Gary

Ayup ... Irony at its finest ... ;)

The nuance of the COO's statement won't be plastered all over the Internet. Damage done.

Gary

Fact is though, the COO's statements are really only seeking to qualify the headlines - not change them. Indeed, Blockbuster will be pushing BD exclusively in this additional roll-out, and it is what it is. That they would/will rent HD DVD as well should that format take off goes without saying; the Blockbuster COO is simply being civil and professional by making the mention.

The COO's portrayal is of course less sensationalistic, but it is nevertheless the same story in the end.

Fact is though, the COO's statements are really only seeking to qualify the headlines - not change them. Indeed, Blockbuster will be pushing BD exclusively in this additional roll-out, and it is what it is. That they would/will rent HD DVD as well should that format take off goes without saying; the Blockbuster COO is simply being civil and professional by making the mention.

The COO's portrayal is of course less sensationalistic, but it is nevertheless the same story in the end.

I don't know what your local media is saying, but around here, it's "Blockbuster has decided to go exclusive to the Blu-ray format and drop rival HD DVD".

That, frankly, is *very* different than the reality of the story being told by the COO.

I don't know what your local media is saying, but around here, it's "Blockbuster has decided to go exclusive to the Blu-ray format and drop rival HD DVD".

That, frankly, is *very* different than the reality of the story being told by the COO.

Yet the actions are going to be seen just like the headlines considering the majority of their stores will only have blu-ray. Even on avs, people were saying this for circuit city with HD-DVD until they started having HD-DVD players in store.

This is a good news. I hold off the new player for sometime now just because of this stupid format war. I think the format war will be over soon...

steve, I totally agree. I was saying 'traitor' to the HD cause. I am more concerned about offshoring, jihadism, and illegal aliens.

You should have realized that when I said a 'traitor to HD' that's all I meant. Weird how you expanded that to every subject.

First, I know what you meant. I'm not implying you think non-BR fans are traitors to the country. I just happen to think that even the idea of 'traitor to HD' is a very strong statement for such a trivial thing in life. It implies there should be some type of loyalty where I don't see the need for any whatsoever.

Second, although I quoted you as an example, you are not the only person who I believe... no disrespect intend... that has gone a little overboard. I came across your post towards the end of my lunch hour, found the language to be particularly strong, so I stopped reading there and spoke my piece. Nothing personal to you.

Your are certainly entitled to your opinions and your hobbies. Catching up on this thread after an 8 hour absence, I've seen by the number of your posts, and their content, that this is a very serious and important thing to you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that you, personally and unilaterally, have decided that we should all support BR. You can't understand why anyone would support HD DVD. Am I reading this wrong?

It might help if you could realize that not everyone takes this quite so seriously. I could afford to buy a BR player right now. Our combined income is over 6 digits. I simply don't want to spend $500-$600 on another movie player. People keep talking about the pricing gap closing, but not everyone is just now buying a player. Some of us bought a player a year ago when pricing wasn't even close. With a 12% Best Buy coupon, gift certificates that I had been hoarding, and selling my then-current upscaling player, I got into HD for $250 hardware cost. I have plenty of HD DVDs in my Netflix queu that I haven't seen yet. More movies are coming out each month. I can't keep up with the format I've chosen, why do I need another? Fox and Disney aren't putting anything out, and even if they did, I'm sure it will be on DVD. Does that help explain why some people might not support BR? Your whole argument to folks such as myself is that we should jump on the BR wagon for the sake of propping up one format and end the war. Not doing so is prolonging the war. Rather than argue the point, my response is "so what?" I don't care about the war. I don't have any allegiance to any company or studio. HD movies aren't such a big deal in my life that I have to crusade on message forums to try and speed up adoption. I'm certainly not going to drop $600 to speed up adoption. I didn't start the war and it's not my job to end it.

As far as blockbuster goes, there's no question it's a bad news day for HD DVD. I'll give you this: if I could do it over again knowing what I know today, I would not choose HD DVD. I wouldn't choose BR, either, though. I'd bide my time and wait to see how Holiday 2007 plays out. I don't believe anyone is throwing in the towel before then, and there's still plenty of time for things to swing one way or the other. "The consumer has chosen" is pure FUD, the consumers I know don't even know what I'm talking about when I mention HD. Their only "choice" has been DVD on uncalibrated TVs with the sharpness at 100%. Let's wait and see what the consumer chooses before making all these bold statements, and I will agree that rental availability will make some difference. How much it makes, and how long Blockbuster stays on this course, is unknown right now. All the talk about a chain reaction and the death of HD DVD is just as silly as... well, all the talk to date about the death of HD DVD has been.

I keep seeing comments about sour grapes on the HD DVD side, and maybe that could be true for the folks who've purchased the entire library. But for someone like myself who waited for a good hardware deal, picked up a few must-haves, and rented the rest, I don't see what I have to be sour about. I've enjoyed HD for a year, and no doubt will continue to enjoy it for the remainder of the year before there is any chance of HD DVD losing. If it does lose, I'll buy a BR player once the prices on final-spec players are below $300, and will watch upconverted DVD on my A1 until then. I really don't understand how that could be a worse choice than having bought a $1000 player a year ago with the same level of uncertainty. I know for a fact that my price/performance point for BR will come a lot sooner because of the competition HD DVD has provided. Some of you folks ridiculing HD DVD owners and whining about prolonging the war ought to be sending thank you letters instead. Without HD DVD you'd still be in a war, and it would be BDA vs the consumer, with players priced so outrageously that there wouldn't be enough owners to propagate a thread this size.

People have a short attention span and this headline will be forgotten by the time the next Neilson weekly numbers roll in....

I am not surprised to see Blockbuster back peddling a bit here. Probably some lower down VP acted on his own and made a stronger announcement than their actual position.

Been away a couple days, and don't have the energy to read all the posts. My initial reaction:
1. BD studios are giving a BIG price break to Bb for this (very viral)
2. they're turning this into a Bb vs Netflix war and guess who will win
3. I can get both from Netflix - end of story

You obviously havent read everything. BB doesnt pay for there discs. They get them free and basically pay a percentage to use them. Blockbuster has said they rent 70% BD and 30% Hd and that is why they are doing this. One format is better for consumers and most if not all retailers agree. As far as you being able to get them both from Netflix being the end of story, I think its slightly more significant then that.

Aw, buck up camper... you *are* special. ;)

Actually, I would say that the fact that you (a) are a poster here and (b) noticed the "news" on this today makes you more than a bit above the average consumer, if you were implying you were average.

I don't agree with your decision, but I understand it. Buying into either format at this stage has a degree of risk.

I suppose you have a point about me not being J6P in this regard :) However, I think a good percentage of people in my demographic would be worried enough to do what I'm doing. I also think that while J6P may not read this press-release, it will be noticable to him when he starts seeing BluRay in all the blockbuster stores, as well as all the commercials for the new movies coming out, that seem to have BluRay versions mostly, and very few "On Dvd and Hddvd".

On a sidenote, In my situation, if I had the money, I would jump in, probably buying both formats, but I can't afford to risk spending 300 (actually, I see CC upped the price to 350 now)on a piece of equipment right now if I'm not pretty sure it will be useful for a while.

You obviously havent read everything. BB doesnt pay for there discs. They get them free and basically pay a percentage to use them. Blockbuster has said they rent 70% BD and 30% Hd and that is why they are doing this. One format is better for consumers and most if not all retailers agree. As far as you being able to get them both from Netflix being the end of story, I think its slightly more significant then that.

How so? At this point in time the number of rentals is so small it's not going to alienate enough people to matter. The fact remains that with BB online and Netflix, there are over 9 million subscribers that have access to both HD DVD and Blu-Ray.

Not even every BB will stock Blu-Ray, so where does it leave people who have stores near them that don't stock them? Online or Netflix. Not a big deal.

Yes the consistency of HD DVD does continue to drop. Here's the chart, compare it to the June 1st one.

HDD 172HD/212BD, HTS 171HD/201BD, HTF 55HD/76BD, UD 118HD/106BD, Talk 215HD/241BD
06.18.07
HD DVD PQ SQ TOTAL Blu-ray PQ SQ TOTAL
HighDef 3.96 3.64 3.80 HighDef 3.99 3.83 3.91
HTSpot 3.99 3.86 3.93 HTSpot 4.02 4.25 4.14
DVDTalk 3.66 3.51 3.58 DVDTalk 3.64 3.68 3.66
HTForum 4.04 3.80 3.92 HTForum 4.28 4.10 4.19
UpDisc 4.03 3.83 3.93 UpDisc 4.05 4.14 4.10
Totals 3.90 3.69 3.79 Totals 3.93 3.95 3.94

FWIW ... BB's Online Offering still carries HD DVD's ... but I understand that the Netflix Catalog (for BR and HD DVD) is larger anyways.

Thanks, I'm aware of that. Looks to me like BB is picking up steam against Netflix on the online side of things though (popularity, not quality/quantity! :)

Also, I think most importantly, BluRay will get another venue/presence to make themselves known, through the B&M locations, both for sale and rentals.

Trust me, I'm not a BD fanboy, but I think this is a pretty important milestone in the "hd war".

I'll respond, despite my belief that your response was just another attempt to post your chart for the 3rd or 4th time in this thread
...and I just posted it again, updated for June 18th, 2007.
It shows Blu-ray continuing to pull ahead.
Facts are facts and whilst your assesment of VC-1 providing good quality is true, it does not best MPEG-2 as the numbers clearly show. It is merely more efficient.
Sorry.

It seems that the average quality of HD DVD is consistantly dropping as Universal drags out tired catalogue releases.Like: Breach, Smokin Aces, Children of Men, Breakfast Club, Lost in Translation and Midnight Run? And that's just a few recent ones.

Perhaps you should keep more up to date with the reviews and update your facts according to today instead of living in 2006.
Although your tone does sound rather personal, thanks for your opinions ;) Too bad the majority of the BD releases available for purchase are so 2006, then...

Yes the consistency of HD DVD does continue to drop. Here's the chart, compare it to the June 1st one.

HDD 172HD/212BD, HTS 171HD/201BD, HTF 55HD/76BD, UD 118HD/106BD, Talk 215HD/241BD
06.18.07
HD DVD PQ SQ TOTAL Blu-ray PQ SQ TOTAL
HighDef 3.96 3.64 3.80 HighDef 3.99 3.83 3.91
HTSpot 3.99 3.86 3.93 HTSpot 4.02 4.25 4.14
DVDTalk 3.66 3.51 3.58 DVDTalk 3.64 3.68 3.66
HTForum 4.04 3.80 3.92 HTForum 4.28 4.10 4.19
UpDisc 4.03 3.83 3.93 UpDisc 4.05 4.14 4.10
Totals 3.90 3.69 3.79 Totals 3.93 3.95 3.94

Overall, it looks to be quite even to me ... especially when you consider all the value added content you get with HD DVD like U-Control, IME, PiP, etc.

btw, are you planning on posting this chart and comments every X pages? Because I think this is like the 4th or 5th time I've seen it. Is it really necessary to do that?

...and I just posted it again, updated for June 18th, 2007.
It shows Blu-ray continuing to pull ahead.
Facts are facts and whilst your assesment of VC-1 providing good quality is true, it does not best MPEG-2 as the numbers clearly show. It is merely more efficient.
Sorry.

LOL, wait a second... You are saying that subjective reviews are now "Facts?"

Might as well use the Tier thread as fact.

The chart that you have posted is compiled subjective opinions. THAT is a fact.

You obviously havent read everything. BB doesnt pay for there discs. They get them free and basically pay a percentage to use them. Blockbuster has said they rent 70% BD and 30% Hd and that is why they are doing this. One format is better for consumers and most if not all retailers agree. As far as you being able to get them both from Netflix being the end of story, I think its slightly more significant then that.
So they're paying [25]% of what they used to.

Thanks, I'm aware of that. Looks to me like BB is picking up steam against Netflix on the online side of things though (popularity, not quality/quantity! :)

Also, I think most importantly, BluRay will get another venue/presence to make themselves known, through the B&M locations, both for sale and rentals.

Trust me, I'm not a BD fanboy, but I think this is a pretty important milestone in the "hd war".

Fair enough, it was just that since BB Total Access was mentioned, I thought the other provided more value. No worries. ;)

...and I just posted it again, updated for June 18th, 2007.
It shows Blu-ray continuing to pull ahead.
Facts are facts and whilst your assesment of VC-1 providing good quality is true, it does not best MPEG-2 as the numbers clearly show. It is merely more efficient.
Sorry.

Wow ... this makes no sense ... are you saying that all the newly reviewed releases for this week at MPEG2 compared to VC1? I find that highly unlikely. The better comparison would be a breakdown by codec, versus lumping AVC, VC1, and MPEG2 into a big pool.

stevenmh, what an excellent post. You pretty much summed up my opinion on the matter, though I only recently bought into the HD DVD format, paying just $250 and have no risk involved (I can return it to the store I bought it from whenever for a full refund). I bought one disc the same day (my daughter asked me for Charlie & The Chocolate Factory and I was anxious for a demo disc to see how noticeable the added resolution would be, so I relented), but other than that my plan has been to rent everything and buy next to nothing.

How so? At this point in time the number of rentals is so small it's not going to alienate enough people to matter. The fact remains that with BB online and Netflix, there are over 9 million subscribers that have access to both HD DVD and Blu-Ray.

Not even every BB will stock Blu-Ray, so where does it leave people who have stores near them that don't stock them? Online or Netflix. Not a big deal.

Yeah, 41 pages in about 36 hours. 2000 or so stores not stocking HD live in those stores. Definitely not a big deal. Some people just cant deal or accept can they. Is it the end, No. Is it a big deal, Yes.

WE here at AVS LOVE to deal in facts . . . . when we get some.

From day one, the CEA has tracked literally every single DVD player sold in the USA SID. (Info at The Digital Bits)

This is NOT the case for HDD. We only get percentages . . . wonder why?

As BB has kept up with NF and in 2006 NF did $1 billion and BB did $5.5 Billion - then $4.5 billion was done via walk ins. That is over 4 to 1 in favor of walk ins.

And again - at 1450 stores Joe Public will only see BD - 170 titles is what the official BB PR said. So right off the bat - with only 170 per store (1 of each title) that will be almost double the volume over all the HD DVD's bought SID.

And i am an HD DVD supporter. But I am also an HD supporter and I am definitely a realist.

And people seem to forget what happened 10 years ago when DVD was limping along - until BB announced it would start carrying DVD's in their stores - It exploded and players were nowheres near $200 at the time this happend.

Great points.

People have a short attention span and this headline will be forgotten by the time the next Neilson weekly numbers roll in....

I am not surprised to see Blockbuster back peddling a bit here. Probably some lower down VP acted on his own and made a stronger announcement than their actual position.

My read is different than yours Plaz;

This was a Press Release to AP. (the fact that it leaked early is a whole other issue). Probably came right from their Public Relations dept. It was factual about events and decisions:

1. After 6 months of a trial program in, 250 BB locations, it was found that more BD's are rented than HD DVD's are.

2. With #1 in mind, they are adding an additional 1450 stores that will only carry BD, but the original 250 stores will continue to carry both

3. If HD DVD proves out - that consumers want it - it can be added at a later date.

And those are the facts of the article as wrtten, and what started this whale of a thread.

THEN: This story explodes all over the media. TV, Newspapers, The Internet - everyone has it.

All of a sudden reporters are ganging up on BB at Corporate to get more info and guess what!

FREE PUBLICITY! Millions of dollars of FREE publicity! So the COO speaks for BB . . . and he reiterates the article exactly as it was written - if you read it carefully and as I pointed out above.

Not a worry for me the only BB store that was close to me was 16 miles away and is now closed. I am so worried about this news that I have 7 HD DVDS on the way from Amazon.

Not a worry for me the only BB store that was close to me was 16 miles away and is now closed. I am so worried about this news that I have 7 HD DVDS on the way from Amazon.
Heh! :) Exactly right. I'll keep right on buying also. Neither format's discs will vaporise into smoke down the road (except for the "disc rot" reported on some of the Bluray discs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=857067) lately). So my investment is just fine - particularly with the combo players arriving over the next 3 to 5 months.

My read is different than yours Plaz;

This was a Press Release to AP. (the fact that it leaked early is a whole other issue). Probably came right from their Public Relations dept. It was factual about events and decisions:

1. After 6 months of a trial program in, 250 BB locations, it was found that more BD's are rented than HD DVD's are.

2. With #1 in mind, they are adding an additional 1450 stores that will only carry BD, but the original 250 stores will continue to carry both

3. If HD DVD proves out - that consumers want it - it can be added at a later date.

And those are the facts of the article as wrtten, and what started this whale of a thread.

THEN: This story explodes all over the media. TV, Newspapers, The Internet - everyone has it.

All of a sudden reporters are ganging up on BB at Corporate to get more info and guess what!

FREE PUBLICITY! Millions of dollars of FREE publicity! So the COO speaks for BB . . . and he reiterates the article exactly as it was written - if you read it carefully and as I pointed out above.

Good post, and it brings us to a point that I haven't seen posted here yet. This is a ton of press for HD optical media. That, more than anything else, is going to help BOTH Blu-Ray and HD DVD. Who knows how many people just found out that they can buy and rent HD media for their HDTV.

Heh! :) Exactly right. I'll keep right on buying also. Neither format's discs will vaporise into smoke down the road (except for the "disc rot" reported on some of the Bluray discs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=857067) lately). So my investment is just fine - particularly with the combo players arriving over the next 3 to 5 months.

You were doing fine, but then you had to add the disc rot thing. I yell at BD fanboys all the time for blowing HDDVD disc playback out of proportion. You will get no less, bunch of bull.

DAMN.. that's all I can think of. This thread has already reached 41 pages!!!??

On the blu ray/Blockbuster news... I guess they got what they wanted, people across the net are discussing this latest news in the HD war. I mean every board I go to has long threads about this news.

Considering the conspiracy theories being posted by the same old Blu-ray haters I want to post a few quotes from Blockbuster COO Nick Shepherd (http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=383736735&play=1) explaining again why Blockbuster made this perfectly rational decision:

"That right now in this point in time there was a greater demand for Blu-ray..."

"This was purely around consumers telling us that at this point in time they favored Blu-ray..."

"The bottom line today is that consumers have chosen Blu-ray initially..."

"Initially this decision is based purely on the number of rents we have seen in our 250 pioneering stores..."

Well, after thinking about it for most of the day (with taking time out for eating, of course!), I decided to cancel my Crutchfield order for a Toshiba HD-A2 ($199). But I have no intention of buying a Blu-Ray player, or any other type of HD player, for a while. Several reasons:

1. I don't feel like swaying with the Blu-Ray/HD-DVD wind every other week.
2. I'm not convinced Blockbuster made a shrewd business decision; on the other hand, too many people will walk into Blockbuster and see Blu Ray only.
3. I think the price of Toshiba HD-DVD players will continue to drop; it's the only way they can stay competitive. That $199 is going to look expensive in a few months, I think.
4. My Panasonic S97 is a perfectly acceptable machine until these HD wars settle down.
5. $400 is too much to spend on a DVD player, even if it's Blu-Ray. $200 is my limit. I'm guessing $125 or so is the limit for most people.

I think what will happen as a result of today is that people are going to stop buying HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players for a while. People who read this story won't buy an HD-DVD player because they'll be afraid of buying a dead format. But then they'll start researching Blu-Ray players, see that they cost $400 and decide, "I'll stick with what I have." I'm guessing that for a while, the HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray format war is unofficially stagnant.

Overall, it looks to be quite even to me ... especially when you consider all the value added content you get with HD DVD like U-Control, IME, PiP, etc.

btw, are you planning on posting this chart and comments every X pages? Because I think this is like the 4th or 5th time I've seen it. Is it really necessary to do that?
You've thought wrong - the chart you've quoted, that's the first time you're seeing this chart.
The date of the numbers is there "06.18.07"
Check the other charts and you'll see they were not up to date, thanks.

Personally I don't think it's even at all - Blu-ray is far ahead on SQ, thanks to the more frequent inclusion on lossless audio.

Considering the conspiracy theories being posted by the same old Blu-ray haters I want to post a few quotes from Blockbuster COO Nick Shepherd (http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=383736735&play=1) explaining again why Blockbuster made this perfectly rational decision:

"That right now in this point in time there was a greater demand for Blu-ray..."

"This was purely around consumers telling us that at this point in time they favored Blu-ray..."

"The bottom line today is that consumers have chosen Blu-ray initially..."

"Initially this decision is based purely on the number of rents we have seen in our 250 pioneering stores..."
So they make long term decisions based on instant trends - indicating a poor business sense

So they make long term decisions based on instant trends - indicating a poor business sense

This is a company that lost about $3.5 Billion from 2002-2004. They lost nearly $50 million just in this past quarter. A shrewd business sense is not something they seem to possess. ;)

This is a company that lost about $3.5 Billion from 2002-2004. They lost nearly $50 million just in this past quarter. A shrewd business sense is not something they seem to possess. ;)

All the more reason for them to get this decision right! ;)

You were doing fine,Thanks! but then you had to add the disc rot thing. :) Sorry... :) (looks a little worrying tho...)

Funny how this thread based on what many here are saying is a "non-story" is up to 41 pages already in less than a day and a half.... Is that a record here..?!?

hmmm....

edit: 42 pages...


;)

All the more reason for them to get this decision right! ;)

Well, it's definitely an obvious reason why they're gun-shy about rolling HD DVD wider. If the 70/30 figures are correct (and the total amount of interest in BD/HD is as low as I suspect), going wide with HD DVD doesn't make much sense *today*. And going wide with BD makes only slightly more sense.

But it's VERY early in the format war to be picking a side like that. I suppose they have plenty of time to react as the market grows. If HD DVD players sell like pancakes during the holidays, they could always start rolling out rentals in Q1 08. It just seems like they may have been better off waiting until there was a clearer retail picture. I think we're going to see a lot of reaction from blockbuster, rather than action.



But, who knows, maybe BD is turning into the preferred format for renters. It's certainly a possible impact of the "PS3 effect" and lack of games. I'm just not sure that it will remain that way. It'll be interesting to watch.

Well, it's definitely an obvious reason why they're gun-shy about rolling HD DVD wider. If the 70/30 figures are correct (and the total amount of interest in BD/HD is as low as I suspect), going wide with HD DVD doesn't make much sense *today*. And going wide with BD makes only slightly more sense.

But it's VERY early in the format war to be picking a side like that. I suppose they have plenty of time to react as the market grows. If HD DVD players sell like pancakes during the holidays, they could always start rolling out rentals in Q1 08. It just seems like they may have been better off waiting until there was a clearer retail picture. I think we're going to see a lot of reaction from blockbuster, rather than action.



But, who knows, maybe BD is turning into the preferred format for renters. It's certainly a possible impact of the "PS3 effect" and lack of games. I'm just not sure that it will remain that way. It'll be interesting to watch.

What can I say, I find myself agreeing with you yet again in this thread. :eek: Seriously, I think these are all valid points/possibilities.....and yes, it will be most interesting to watch!

Considering the conspiracy theories being posted by the same old Blu-ray haters I want to post a few quotes from Blockbuster COO Nick Shepherd (http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=383736735&play=1) explaining again why Blockbuster made this perfectly rational decision:

"That right now in this point in time there was a greater demand for Blu-ray..."

"This was purely around consumers telling us that at this point in time they favored Blu-ray..."

"The bottom line today is that consumers have chosen Blu-ray initially..."

"Initially this decision is based purely on the number of rents we have seen in our 250 pioneering stores..."

Cherry picking at it's finest. It wouldn't have killed you to include the other things he said. About eventually expanding to carry HD DVD in the next 12-18 months if market share picks up. Remember that "Nano-Second in time" quote he used?

I agree with you that it was a rational decision though. A bit premature probably, but founded in reason.

So they make long term decisions based on instant trends - indicating a poor business senseWell I didn't know a 6+ month trend was considered "instant" though as he said it is only the initial trend they have observed. Also how exactly is it "poor business sense" to offer a video format for rent that has been renting twice as well as the competing video format? It seems pretty common sense to me and if HD DVD ever rents as well as Blu-ray they would offer it for rent as well. As such I find it funny that the more fanatical HD DVD supporters are already screaming the words "boycott" when that would only skew the rental data even further for Blu-ray. Than again if it insures that a plentiful number of Blu-ray titles are available for rent at my local Blockbuster I wouldn't be against that.

I remember when the video stores around me stopped renting Beta movies (yep, I'm old...)
Sucked for me. I had a Sony betamax. I eventually got a VHS, interestingly, a VERY overpriced Toshiba.

:)

movin' on...

as a cfo of a publicly traded company he has to be very circumspect in his remarks since there is a huge liability attached.

as a cfo of a publicly traded company he has to be very circumspect in his remarks since there is a huge liability attached.

You'd think so, but try dialing into an Overstock.com earnings call and see what happens! :eek:

You'd think so, but try dialing into an Overstock.com earnings call and see what happens! :eek:

lol!

Well I didn't know a 6+ month trend was considered "instant" though as he said it is only the initial trend they have observed. Also how exactly is it "poor business sense" to offer a video format for rent that has been renting twice as well as the competing video format? It seems pretty common sense to me and if HD DVD ever rents as well as Blu-ray they would offer it for rent as well. As such I find it funny that the more fanatical HD DVD supporters are already screaming the words "boycott" when that would only skew the rental data even further for Blu-ray. Than again if it insures that a plentiful number of Blu-ray titles are available for rent at my local Blockbuster I wouldn't be against that.
I don't know many businesses that forego 30% of their revenue based on "this point of time". Sounds sort of stupid, really

"So they make long term decisions based on instant trends - indicating a poor business sense "

"This is a company that lost about $3.5 Billion from 2002-2004. They lost nearly $50 million just in this past quarter. A shrewd business sense is not something they seem to possess"

If you believe the COO - BB did not make the decision - BB customers did. 250 stores - all stock both formats. After 6 months (this test started in November) - they look at the results and see that overwhelingly - BD got rented more. So they expand the rollout to another 1450 to capitalize on the results of the test - and leave the 250 test stores with both (probably to keep an eye on and verify the data 6 months from now)

As BB lite the fuse to what became the exploding DVD market by doing the same thing almost 9 years ago - few hundred stores got DVD (at a time when VHS held 99% of the market and LD held the other 1%) and the results were very positive that they immediately began to rollout DVD throughout all their stores.

In business - get in early - investment is smaller (in this case no investment), better chance of success and becoming the market leader early and gaining a good lead over others who may enter the market after you (remember that no investment thing).

Retailers hate the format war with a passion. To them it is duplicate inventory and this drives them crazy.

And you think BB made a bad decision? Is that a business man saying those words, or is it a "supporter" of a choosen format saying them?

So what should an HDDVD outfit like Toshiba do to respond? They're not going to get any major brick and morter stores to dump blu ray in a kind of tit for tat. But why not work out a deal with Netflix to provide 3 or 6 months (something pretty generous) of free HDDVD rentals. It would produce new Netflix customers so they should be willing to work out a pretty good discount for Toshiba and it basically sticks it in Blockbuster's face: "You worried you might not be able to rent HDDVDs? Think again!" I think if I were wavering, maybe even interested in a Blu Ray player, but saw a big promotional display promoting free Netflix HDDVD rentals along with a 200 or 300 dollar price difference in the machines, it might sway me to buy the Toshiba.

I don't know many businesses that forego 30% of their revenue based on "this point of time". Sounds sort of stupid, really

Blockbuster is going to roll out high-def in more locations, but right now it's niche. So the decision had to be made as to what would be the best use of their shelf space (remember, shelves for HD take away from DVD), and it came down to BD. It's as simple as that - no misguided business decisions or anything else. It's not 30% of revenue, its choosing which horse to pick in order to best grow that 1% of revenue while not artificially constraining the existing 99%.

After a few sparse months of token Blu-Ray representation on the shelves, Blockbuster will make an announcement that their customers have not embraced Blu-Ray rentals, that neither format is ready for primetime, and that our customers have told us they prefer to have a wider variety of std-definition programming to select from. We recommend that for most customers, std def DVD will remain king.

Universal has some interesting options as well,

1.) Make the distribution of std-def DVD licensing contingent on taking a percentage as HD-DVD
2.) Make every std-def DVD a *combo* disk at the std def price, something they can easily do. HD-DVD afterall, is just an extension of the red laser technology, much cheaper to produce for profit than Blu-Ray disks.

What consumers could end up with, is Blu-Ray being the better format for rentals due to it's durability advantage (if it really has one), and HD-DVD being the better format for ownership since one side is std-def, the other HD and cheaper to own.

What's most interesting to me, is how Blockbuster has created headlines for itself without adding any actual inventory or spending any money to advertise. Will they back it up? I'm still waiting for them to make good on an earlier promise, "It's in stock, or it's free." <-- Good luck collecting on that one.

The future is format neutral.

"The future is format neutral"? I don't know about that. I checked with my local Blockbuster to see what's in its future, and the manager said that his store's hi-def future is Blu and only Blu. And most likely next month will be when the new inventory arrives. That doesn't seem so neutral to me.

Blockbuster is going to roll out high-def in more locations, but right now it's niche. So the decision had to be made as to what would be the best use of their shelf space (remember, shelves for HD take away from DVD), and it came down to BD. It's as simple as that - no misguided business decisions or anything else. It's not 30% of revenue, its choosing which horse to pick in order to best grow that 1% of revenue while not artificially constraining the existing 99%.
Not really. The trend of player and disk sales does not indicate a slam-dunk for BD. What they've done is ignore and/or alienate a growing number of HDM owners who can help their bottom line. They're betting on the outcome of the format war - that's not business, that's emotion.

Not really. The trend of player and disk sales does not indicate a slam-dunk for BD. What they've done is ignore and/or alienate a growing number of HDM owners who can help their bottom line. They're betting on the outcome of the format war - that's not business, that's emotion.


They're not profitting....why would you offer an item you make no money from?

Cherry picking at it's finest. It wouldn't have killed you to include the other things he said.I was trying to prove why they picked Blu-ray and I never said that was a summary of what he said. He said many very neutral things about this format war and if you want to post those quotes you can. In fact someone already did (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10819883&&#post10819883).


About eventually expanding to carry HD DVD in the next 12-18 months if market share picks up.More technically he said they would wait to see how the two formats do over the next 12 to 18 months. For instance if Blu-ray continues to do better we might see more Blockbuster stores get Blu-ray titles. One of the reasons why I think HD DVD supporters boycotting Blockbuster would actually end up harming their cause.


I agree with you that it was a rational decision though. A bit premature probably, but founded in reason.Good, and though I know some people believe it premature for those wanting HD discs to take off isn't it a good sign? After all would it have been better had Blockbuster decided that neither HD format should be stocked in their stores?


I don't know many businesses that forego 30% of their revenue based on "this point of time". Sounds sort of stupid, reallyWell they only have a limited amount of money and a limited amount of shelf space so it was more along the lines of picking one format that offers 2x rentals or the other that only offers 1x rentals. Of course if HD DVD rentals ever increase that will change things but until than all the boycotts/threats in the world isn't going to do much good. After all as much as Blockbuster loves to receive hate filled emails they aren't going to start offering HD DVD in more of their stores until more people rent it. That is just simple economics.

"The future is format neutral"? I don't know about that. I checked with my local Blockbuster to see what's in its future, and the manager said that his store's hi-def future is Blu and only Blu. And most likely next month will be when the new inventory arrives. That doesn't seem so neutral to me.


Stop the press!! End the war!! This BB manager knows something we don't!! The future is blu!


How can you claim to know what the future is? Because your local BB manager says so?! :eek: :o

I don't know many businesses that forego 30% of their revenue based on "this point of time". Sounds sort of stupid, really

You are missing a decimal, since 1% of the business is hd media and 30% of that was HD DVD they are foregoing .3% in hopes that they will greatly increase the .7% that is BD.

This is a company that lost about $3.5 Billion from 2002-2004. They lost nearly $50 million just in this past quarter. A shrewd business sense is not something they seem to possess. ;)

Sounds EXACTLY like NBC/Universal. Wierd.

~Josh

I have no idea why "boycott" is being thrown around unless it is used in terms of what Bb is doing. And obviously we are talking about the HDM market, since no self-respecting HDM consumer will rent DVD's.

You do know that hd dvd NEEDS the blu laser right? Without it would just be dvd and not have 15-30 gigs of space.


Iggster the original format that was proposed by Warner and Toshiba was red laser with newer CODECs (actually AVC). The companies that wanted blue laser finally had enough because nothing was getting done in the DVD forum and so created the Blu ray Founders to develop a real HD format. That is when Toshiba changed plans and came back with AOD and blue laser

It's shocking how many of the posts are either off-topic or personal attacks..

It's far more common than it should be. There are some extremely brilliant and helpful people on this forum. Unfortunately there's a lot of trash talkers who go for the jugular and deride people if they post something remotely questionable.

You wouldn't believe the garbage I've had to take when I represented a company on here. I thought people would be open minded. Hah! There's more cynicism here than at an atheists convention.

I have no idea why "boycott" is being thrown around unless it is used in terms of what Bb is doing. And obviously we are talking about the HDM market, since no self-respecting HDM consumer will rent DVD's.

Really? You just insulted me and I take great offense to your remark.

I own an HD DVD player and a 50" HDTV. And I absolutely love movies!

So I have over 50,000 to choose from with DVD and what? Less than 300 for HD DVD?

I must be a total wacko in your book . . . .

I still BUY DVD's! For $5.50 - brand new!

I don't know many businesses that forego 30% of their revenue based on "this point of time". Sounds sort of stupid, really

I'm sure you meant 30% of next generation optical disc revenue, which is not at all a number that is material to their financial results.

That said:

Blockbuster is making a strategic decision based of the larger picture. If this format war doesn't end quickly, the business model will need to be radically restructured sooner then they'd like as mass online delivery is the heir apparant to dvd in an optical media vacuum.

IMO, we'll quickly see all of the bricks and mortar giants fall in line with Blu-ray and/or try to stake their claim to online distribution.

IMO, the best case scenario for HD DVD is sticking around long enough to cause enough marketplace confusion that both formats fail.

Disagree.

The only reason either format is as (pick one, or more) cheap, good, available, etc. as they are, is due to at least some extent, to the competition between them.

As soon as one goes bye-bye, you can bet the advancement of the remaining format will diminish. No competition = no forward movement.

While I agree competion is good, in this case, the competion is what is keeping many consumers from buying into either format. They simply want to know who is going to win. One format needs to die in order for the other to succeed.

I believe once there is a clear cut winner, I would expect sales to increase dramatically, especially if the BluRay player can get to the $300-$400 price range and early movie release prices for $19.99.

As long as this war ends quickly. I could care less whether it is blu ray or HD DVD as the standard. So if Blockbuster has set a new trend to end this pathetic war.. I'm all for it.

IMO, the best case scenario for HD DVD is sticking around long enough to cause enough marketplace confusion that both formats fail.

Oh, if I only had a dollar for every time I've heard that. I understand the argument, but I'm not convinced that is the case. Way too early to tell.

Bradley

While I agree competion is good, in this case, the competion is what is keeping many consumers from buying into either format. They simply want to know who is going to win. One format needs to die in order for the other to succeed.

I believe once there is a clear cut winner, I would expect sales to increase dramatically, especially if the BluRay player can get to the $300-$400 price range and early movie release prices for $19.99.

Yes, the fierce competition is a bit of a double-edged sword in this case. However, in my opinion, it's the notion that "one format needs to die in order for the other to succeed" that has turned competition into "war". This is largely made possible by those studios that exclusively support only one HD format. I don't pretend to know how it will turn out in the end, but imagine for a moment a day when the studios are format neutral and dual format players are the norm, just like DVD+R/W and DVD-R/W are today. It's a nice thought anyway. ;)

Bradley

While I agree competion is good, in this case, the competion is what is keeping many consumers from buying into either format. They simply want to know who is going to win. One format needs to die in order for the other to succeed.

Price is the only thing keeping consumers out, and both formats are going to get supported in future players. That's the key to mainstream acceptance.

Yes, the fierce competition is a bit of a double-edged sword in this case. However, in my opinion, it's the notion that "one format needs to die in order for the other to succeed" that has turned competition into "war". This is largely made possible by those studios that exclusively support only one HD format. I don't pretend to know how it will turn out in the end, but imagine for a moment a day when the studios are format neutral and dual format players are the norm, just like DVD+R/W and DVD-R/W are today. It's a nice thought anyway. ;)

Bradley

that's really not feasible... there is tremendous added cost for everyone involved (studios, retailers, consumers), only people who it benefits are promoters of the failing format.

Price is the only thing keeping consumers out, and both formats are going to get supported in future players. That's the key to mainstream acceptance.


hddvd lacks content to prosper.

that's really not feasible... there is tremendous added cost for everyone involved (studios, retailers, consumers), only people who it benefits are promoters of the failing format.


bingo. That's why you didn't see Beta tapes of films after awhile....

I don't know many businesses that forego 30% of their revenue based on "this point of time". Sounds sort of stupid, reallyI wouldn't be so sure Blockbuster is foregoing any revenue. Each store has only so much shelf space for HD boxes which aren't moving all that well. Blockbuster said initially shelf space will be made for 170 Blu-ray titles.

Well in the same space of 170 Blu-rays, Blockbuster could have 85 Blu-rays and 85 HD DVDs. But at a rental ratio of 70/30, if the Blu-ray demand every night was equal to exactly 85 Blu-rays then only 36 HD DVDs would be rented out leaving 49 discs sitting on the shelf every night. So they'd rent out 121 discs every night.

However, if the demand for Blu-rays exceeds 122 discs every night then Blockbuster would actually lose money by stocking both formats equally unless the HD DVD demand equals or exceeds 85 discs.

It would be very difficult for Blockbuster to constantly set an optimal balance of titles between the formats because each title will have a different demand based on the movie and format.

Hmm, let me see in my own personal world I know of two others besides myself that have a HD DVD player, my cousin and a co-worker. I know of no one besides my nephew who has a PS3 and uses it mostly for games, that have a blu-ray player. Yet BB claims it is 70-30% for blu rentals. All I can say is interesting, very very interesting.

that's really not feasible... there is tremendous added cost for everyone involved (studios, retailers, consumers), only people who it benefits are promoters of the failing format.

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, what would it cost a studio to publish in both formats? Both formats use VC-1 for video and many of the same audio encoding options. Couldn't some of the work be outsourced to a vendor that specializes in one format or the other? I assume they already send the master disc to an outside vendor/facility for replication. Yes, there are the interactive features which would involve duplicate development efforts, one in BD-J and one in HDi. But that's not unthinkable, is it? There is software that runs on both Windows and Mac, for example. For the retailer, yes, it eats up some extra shelf space and SKU numbers. But for the consumer, in this scenario, I am not sure what the "tremendous expense" of a format neutral world would be.

I doubt this little fantasy of mine will ever come to fruition and I understand that, in the end, the cost may very well outweight the benefit. I'm just saying there is a sort of group think or existing paradigm that no one wants to challenge. As much as I hate the phrase, many people really don't want to think outside of the box on this one.

But isn't it a valid question? If Warner and other select studios can be format neutral, why can't everyone?

Bradley

Wow this thread is huge.

While its bad for HD-DVD, I dont know what everyone is soo upset about. Blockbuster did a limited trial to determine which format would rent more.

BD out dueled HD-DVD. So Blockbuster decided to stock Blu-ray in stores. Whats with the sour grapes. If two people race, and one wins, the winner gets the gold medal. In a championship boxing match, the person with the most points at the end of the 12th round wins the title(unless there is a KO).... etc.

Its not like blockbuster just decided to go with Blu-Ray for the heck of it. They had a limited trial run. Blu-Ray won. If HD-DVD outrented BD, then the story would be different. They did exactly what most people want.... IE they let the consumers decide with their $$$. Try to be gracious(those who are upset at BBs decision) and realize that BB for gave HD-DVD a chance, even though the outcome is not what you wanted.

SO dont blame blockbuster. HD-DVD lost the trial....period. The only people who deserve blame are the HD-DVD backers(univeral, toshiba) for not competing strongly enough during the trial.

why vc1? sony and disney don't use it. again, if by dual format support you mean put out vc1 on both then again you are limiting winning format to support losing one. with retailers, double inventory is a major problem and again more than likely they would severly limit one. what about capacity difference between disks? limiting bd to 30GB is senseless.

But isn't it a valid question? If Warner and other select studios can be format neutral, why can't everyone?

Bradley


because not all of them are the same, each one has to act in its own best economic interest otherwise it is not capitalism.

Price is the only thing keeping consumers out, and both formats are going to get supported in future players. That's the key to mainstream acceptance.

Sorry but I completely diasgree. To say that pricing is the "only" thing keeping consumers out is insane. It is only part of the problem. Long term product support and studio support are two other things that immediately come to mind.

People have a short attention span and this headline will be forgotten by the time the next Neilson weekly numbers roll in....

I am not surprised to see Blockbuster back peddling a bit here. Probably some lower down VP acted on his own and made a stronger announcement than their actual position.


Your head is in the clouds if you think this is going to blow away in the wind and go away ;) Blockbuster making headlines on the news and the name Blu-Ray has been mentioned numerous times over and over during the day as being the next format that is going to replace SD-DVD's is HUGE to say the least.. This is not only huge for Blu-Ray but for the adoption of High Definition as a whole. Ofcourse we have people who are unhappy with this news who have invested all of their beans in HD-DVD and have for some reason have an anti-Sony stance so strong that some say they will never ever buy a blu-ray player or a blu-ray disc. Eventually all of you people holding off from buying into Blu-Ray will have no choice if you want to watch your favorite movies that haven't been released yet like Star Wars and Indiana Jones... I truly believe this format war will be over by Christmas of this year and this move by Blockbuster is the catalyst that has started the chain reaction that cannot be stopped. No matter how HD-DVD fanboys play down Blockbuster as an old company that has been doing terrible and is in a steep decline and so forth, Blockbuster still has the largest percentage of the total rental market share and is in no danger of losing that with this move. I truly believe Blockbuster will gain more Blu-Ray supporters as the adoption rate grows (because of this news) and more and more Blu-Ray discs fill up the isles at Blockbuster. I believe Netflix will go Blu-Ray only pretty soon since it is to thier benefit that they don't lose all those Blu-Ray folk who like the idea of going to the store to pick up movies and having the ease of dropping a movie off to exchange it for another in an instant.. If you can't beat-em, join-em will be netflix's philosophy in my opinion and will go Blu-Ray sooner than later...

Its not like blockbuster just decided to go with Blu-Ray for the heck of it. They had a limited trial run. Blu-Ray won. If HD-DVD outrented BD, then the story would be different. They did exactly what most people want.... IE they let the consumers decide with their $$$. Try to be gracious(those who are upset at BBs decision) and realize that BB for gave HD-DVD a chance, even though the outcome is not what you wanted.

SO dont blame blockbuster. HD-DVD lost the trial....period. The only people who deserve blame are the HD-DVD backers(univeral, toshiba) for not competing strongly enough during the trial.I get the impression that people didn't realize a decision was going to be made based on the trial period and so didn't try to manipulate the data like both sides have tried to do with their buy days on Amazon. I'm glad they didn't as I think it makes the data more valid.

That said, for those complaining that Blockbuster is doing the wrong thing by only going forward for the new stores in the next phase with the format that basically won the test period, should Blockbuster carry VMD discs also if that DVD based HD format produced less than half what HD DVD did in a test period?

--Darin

I have no idea why "boycott" is being thrown around unless it is used in terms of what Bb is doing.I have seen several HD DVD supporters in this thread threaten to boycott Blockbuster which in my opinion isn't going to do HD DVD any good. In fact if anything it would only lessen the chance that Blockbuster would stock HD DVD in their stores since it would lower the number of HD DVD rentals.


And obviously we are talking about the HDM market, since no self-respecting HDM consumer will rent DVD's.I think plenty of supporters for both HD formats continue to rent DVDs, including me, and I am not sure why someone would simply stop renting DVDs. I may prefer Blu-ray but I am not going to avoid watching certain movies simply because they are not currently on Blu-ray.

Heh! :) Exactly right. I'll keep right on buying also. Neither format's discs will vaporise into smoke down the road (except for the "disc rot" reported on some of the Bluray discs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=857067) lately). So my investment is just fine - particularly with the combo players arriving over the next 3 to 5 months.

Going by the Blu-Ray groups Dedication to the format, for example a new Fifth Element that can be swapped free of charge with the old version. I wouldn´t be so worried about getting faulty discs swapped. I would be more worried about Microsoft and their total lack of respect for their customers (and 50% ?) and HD-DVD supportes, 6 months! to fix what anyone but deaf people would could an absolute deal breaker. And the suprising high numbers of faulty HD-DVD discs we have seen (but we dont mention them do we?).

You posted as a phanboi, you got the answer you wanted?

Don't shoot your load all at once boys.

Blockbuster didn't say they are not renting HD DVD's anymore, just not in stores. The thing about renting in BM stores is that you have to return the title after about a week.

And the availability is not predictable anyways.

So how is that a major blow to HD DVD's?

As long as they continue to rent them online it is ok.

why vc1? sony and disney don't use it. again, if by dual format support you mean put out vc1 on both then again you are limiting winning format to support losing one. with retailers, double inventory is a major problem and again more than likely they would severly limit one. what about capacity difference between disks? limiting bd to 30GB is senseless.

I just threw VC-1 out there because I thought both formats support it and it's arguably the best video codec of the three. Don't both formats support AVC as well?

BD doesn't have to be limited to 30 GB. If the market really wanted the higher bitrate encode that BD50 could afford, studios would recognize that and consumers would be willing to pay an appropriate or proportional premium for it. The reality is you will be hard pressed to see the difference between the two. It's not obvious. What's more obvious is having space for more "extras" or fitting more hours of content onto a single disc.

The double inventory issue at retailers is the best point I've heard so far.

because not all of them are the same, each one has to act in its own best economic interest otherwise it is not capitalism.

Care to elaborate? How are they fundamentally different? I do TRY to be open minded... so convice me. :)

Bradley

I just threw VC-1 out there because I thought both formats support it and it's arguably the best video codec of the three. Don't both formats support AVC as well?

BD doesn't have to be limited to 30 GB. If the market really wanted the higher bitrate encode that BD50 could afford, studios would recognize that and consumers would be willing to pay an appropriate or proportional premium for it. The reality is you will be hard pressed to see the difference between the two. It's not obvious. What's more obvious is having space for more "extras" or fitting more hours of content onto a single disc.

The double inventory issue at retailers is the best point I've heard so far.



Care to elaborate? How are they fundamentally different? I do TRY to be open minded... so convice me. :)

Bradley

Us consumers haven't paid a premium for all the recent BD50's that have been appearing. I don't know what you are talking about in this regard. The only premiums we have seen so far have been coming from HD-DVD combo discs which was a terrible decision from the start and has helped end this format war quicker in my opinion..I wonder why it took so long for HD-DVD folks to stop using them...Double inventory issue is a big reason to go one format exclusive, however in this case it was the fact that Blu-Ray won the trial period that Blockbuster was conducting. Blu-Ray rentals outpaced HD-DVD roughly 70/30 which is a huge disparity. The other reason is Blu-Ray has a more durable disc for rental, however if HD-DVD would have had the lead at the end of this trial period, BB would have gone the other way. SO this is the fault of HD-DVD for not being aggressive during droubts and marketing...

VC-1 may arguably be the best codec out there, however they no longer have the crown for highest quality High Def release. That would go to AVC with both Pirates of the Caribbean discs. So to say VC-1 is the best, perhaps it hasn't been allowed to be the best by sticking to 30GB's on every title that appears in both formats and not letting it reach Blu-Ray bitrates so only one encode gets made and it happens to be for lower spec'ed HD-DVD. I believe VC-1 hasn't been allowed to breath because of this and once it does, we can see some amazing transfers out of it after this format war is over and Blu-Ray wins..

To finish answering your post above, consumers want what is most convenient to them when it comes to renting movies. Netflix is great, however most people prefer to walk around Blockbuster and be able to read the back of movie boxes and so forth when choosing a title..The fact that Blockbuster offers everything that Netflix does at the same price and more with the ability to return movies in-store and rent another right away makes Blockbuster more attractive..It will be very hard for HD-DVD to fight this one back to where it is even since Blu-Ray sales and rentals are in a steady growth rate thanks to "high quality" titles coming out like the Pirates duo and upcoming Spiderman trilogy...

Are we going to hear from HD DVD camp anytime soon, why are they dead silent?

Care to elaborate? How are they fundamentally different? I do TRY to be open minded... so convice me. :)

Bradley


i meant, each of the studios has its own agenda hence not all of them are willing to support both formats. sorry for being confusing... it's almost 3:00am.

Us consumers haven't paid a premium for all the recent BD50's that have been appearing. I don't know what you are talking about in this regard. The only premiums we have seen so far have been coming from HD-DVD combo discs which was a terrible decision from the start and has helped end this format war quicker in my opinion.

Right. I was talking about that only in the context of what makes dual format "tremendously expensive" in the hypothetical scenario I described. I agree the pricing on the combo discs plus the apparent playability issues with combo discs has been a problem for HD DVD.

To finish answering your post above, consumers want what is most convenient to them when it comes to renting movies. Netflix is great, however most people prefer to walk around Blockbuster and be able to read the back of movie boxes and so forth when choosing a title..The fact that Blockbuster offers everything that Netflix does at the same price and more with the ability to return movies in-store and rent another right away makes Blockbuster more attractive..It will be very hard for HD-DVD to fight this one back to where it is even since Blu-Ray sales and rentals are in a steady growth rate thanks to "high quality" titles coming out like the Pirates duo and upcoming Spiderman trilogy...

My understanding is that Netflix has a better designed web site and Blockbuster has the avantage of B&M stores. For me personally, I get more benefit/use out of Netflix.

Are you suggesting there isn't equivalent "high quality" on HD DVD? I hope you've actually sat down and watched movies on both formats, so you don't get too caught up in the specs or the hype.

Bradley

Are we going to hear from HD DVD camp anytime soon, why are they dead silent?Warren Lieberfarb, Toshiba's advisor, responded in an interview with CNBC's Maria Bartiromo (http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=383736735&play=1). He pretty much said Blockbuster's announcement didn't matter cause HD DVD has a 4 to 1 attach rate advantage and mandatory internet connectivity.

Originally Posted by Chau808
Warren Lieberfarb, Toshiba's advisor, responded in an interview with CNBC's Maria Bartiromo. He pretty much said Blockbuster's announcement didn't matter cause HD DVD has a 4 to 1 attach rate advantage and mandatory internet connectivity.

Yeah, that was interesting... His answer was an anttempt to duck the original question... To be honest, this was the first time I've ever seen him that reserved in an interview.

fitprod

This would mean something if it wasn't for the fact that Blockbuster stores in my area have been closing fast. One turned into a daycare center, one into some kind of hardware store, the other I don't know what it turned into since I haven't been there in a while.

It comes down to this also. If BB isn't within walking distance of me then I'd rather just drive a little longer and go to a best buy or other store where I can see more than movies. So blockbuster really isn't much of an option to me anymore.

Right. I was talking about that only in the context of what makes dual format "tremendously expensive" in the hypothetical scenario I described. I agree the pricing on the combo discs plus the apparent playability issues with combo discs has been a problem for HD DVD.



My understanding is that Netflix has a better designed web site and Blockbuster has the avantage of B&M stores. For me personally, I get more benefit/use out of Netflix.

Are you suggesting there isn't equivalent "high quality" on HD DVD? I hope you've actually sat down and watched movies on both formats, so you don't get too caught up in the specs or the hype.

Bradley

Oh yeah I've watched all the top tier titles of both formats including some really bad transfers in both as well. At the moment, Blu-Ray has the edge picture quality-wise and no it isn't hype based on specs. I have done many comparisons on multiple high-end projectors in home theaters that are worth over $80,000 including all the equipment. HD-DVD did have the edge with their early releases before and during Blu-Ray's intital launch. After BD50's started becoming the norm, things did change in Blu-Ray's favor in a big way. Black Hawk Down was the first BD50 that really shined. Since then we have had Casino Royal which was another excellent BD50 release as well as both Pirates films and most recently Apocalypto which has some scenes that out-do Pirates however it is not perfect since multiple camera's were used so not every shot is perfect. My friends who also visit this forum and we all have G2G's at each others homes are very picky. So far we have all come to the same conclusions recently. We all had to go back and play Chronicles of Riddick and Swordfish the other day to see some good HD-DVD transfers, however even the Matrix trilogy falls short when compared to Blu-ray's finest.. BD50 and LPCM is not hype and don't believe any HD-DVD fanboy that tells you otherwise. Go compare HD-DVD and Blu-Ray's best films for yourself and come back and argue which is better. King Kong is by far the best HD-DVD release so far in terms of picture quality, and even that doesn't match POTC DMC and Apocalypto in quality. Considering that King Kong was filled to the brim with its VC-1 codec that it lacked the room for a True-HD track is the perfect argument that space would have and could have made that release so much better. And yes I am very picky about sound quality as well all the way back to my Laserdisc collection which was the last format to have true uncompressed sound up until Blu-Ray :)

Warren Lieberfarb, Toshiba's advisor, responded in an interview with CNBC's Maria Bartiromo (http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=383736735&play=1). He pretty much said Blockbuster's announcement didn't matter cause HD DVD has a 4 to 1 attach rate advantage and mandatory internet connectivity.

Interesting, they should be more active in getting more friends on to HD DVD side or it will be too late. Sony BR camp has done a good job on that end.

Warren Lieberfarb, Toshiba's advisor, responded in an interview with CNBC's Maria Bartiromo (http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=383736735&play=1). He pretty much said Blockbuster's announcement didn't matter cause HD DVD has a 4 to 1 attach rate advantage and mandatory internet connectivity.He's smart enough to know that wasn't much of an answer. I would love to see him answer why RCA dropped the CED format and basically admitted defeat to VHS if high attach rate was so important. If he had been working as a spokesperson for RCA at the time he could have used the attach rate thing there to say why they were going to win, just before RCA stopped selling players (which was mostly because they didn't end up with a wide enough base of owners and mostly had a smaller and more enthusiastic group that weren't enough to justify continuing the format, from what I've read).

And if high attach rate was the most important thing then they should be glad about this, since it is likely to help HD DVD's attach rate by keeping some of the renters from buying their players. If Toshiba believed that keeping a high attach rate was paramount they wouldn't be planning on putting HD DVD drives in all their laptops. If Lieberfarb continues working in defense of HD DVD I expect at some point he will tell us that one reason HD DVD is going to win is because of all those laptops (ignoring how it will lower the attach rate of course).

I know, some people get paid to spin.

--Darin

Are we going to hear from HD DVD camp anytime soon, why are they dead silent?


They are too busy gathering statistics on the 100's of thousands of HD-DVD players they sold over the last month and planning out their next price cut. Something BR is unable to do, $499 is as low as BR can go.

Darin

Good post

It's strange how people get attached to formats

I bought HD DVD and will be glad to see it die

I want to see a sustainable disc based HD medium and at the moent we don't have one.

Rob

Darin

Good post

It's strange how people get attached to formats

I bought HD DVD and will be glad to see it die

I want to see a sustainable disc based HD medium and at the moent we don't have one.

Rob

Like I said before, I wish more people thought the same way you did about this issue. I have both formats and supported HD-DVD when it had the lead in PQ up until BD50's came into play... Blockbuster going neutral

Blockbuster is number #1 in rentals while Netflix is #2. HD-DVD is still alive because of Net-Flix at the moment. I created another thread that has links to presentations given by NEtflix's chief financial officer back in 2005 and he speaks about what not only he thinks about things, but the owner of Netflix as well.
The owner of Netflix as well as the chief financial officer have stated they want to see Blu-Ray win this format war in numerous presentations back in 2005. I had once thought Netflix would go Blu-Ray exclusive at some point even before Blockbuster did.. If Blockbusters decision was based on a trial program to determine which format was more profitable and so forth or Sony came in and offered then a boatload of money to go Blu doesn't matter. The fact is they have gone Blu and that is very bad for HD-DVD. So it is my belief that if Sony comes in and offers Netflix a very good partnership or deal after seeing the effect that Blockbuster going neutral has caused regardless of which way BB became that way. Then it only makes sense for Sony to pursue a finishing blow so to speak since Netflix going Blu- would mean the end for HD-DVD and that is exactly what Sony wants at this moment in time.. That is why I feel Netflix will be the deciding factor in all this as Microsoft/Toshiba throw offers at Netflix's way while Sony does the same.. If I am right, then it will be an interesting week ahead as Target also makes an announcement as well as some other B&M's in this domino effect..

Warren Lieberfarb, Toshiba's advisor, responded in an interview with CNBC's Maria Bartiromo (http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=383736735&play=1). He pretty much said Blockbuster's announcement didn't matter cause HD DVD has a 4 to 1 attach rate advantage and mandatory internet connectivity.

I have the feeling that for many people, Internet connectivity on a nextgen player is going to be rather like the proverbial flashing 12:00 on a VCR. People are just not going to care that much and only want to play their movies.

I am also skeptical of web-based content associated with a movie that will probably disappear after a while. I would prefer to have everything loaded on the disk so that I know I can always get it.

Of course, Blu-ray players have Internet connections as well. Our PS3 seems to do that very well.

This is a weak answer. If these are critical reasons for consumers, then why is BB seeing a 70/30 rental split, and why are we seeing 2:1 sales ratios this year? Clearly customers are not checking out the attach rate before making their purchase decisions.

Posted by dysfuntional26
They are too busy gathering statistics on the 100's of thousands of HD-DVD players they sold over the last month and planning out their next price cut.

I assume you're kidding...

fitprod

I am caught up currently on all the hd-dvd and blu-rays that I want... I own. FYI, a video-mania near me has both for rent. (1/2 and 1/2) Don't the majority here own more than rent anyway? Have to check my hollywood video too to see if they now have any HD format to rent.

They are too busy gathering statistics on the 100's of thousands of HD-DVD players they sold over the last month and planning out their next price cut.I assume you're kidding...

fitprodI'm sure he was just being sarcastic and poking fun at the HD DVD fanboys. Just forgot the customary rolleyes. :rolleyes:

After all you have to get to 200,000 before you have 100's of thousands, right? 10,000 to 30,000 doesn't exactly qualify as 100's of thousands. Maybe 10's of thousands. He used "100's of thousands" for dramatic effect.

And that "planning out their next price cut" line had me rolling. :p

How many more years do BM Video rental stores have? Four? Six? I wonder why they would bother going to one format & alienating a few customers when they lose market share every quarter. HD/BD has to be what 1% of their total sales?

One thing I do agree on is that attach rates are mostly an over rated metric. Having said that let's consider this:

1. How many movies were released on CED v. VHS at the time CED called it quits?

2. What was the CED Player market share v. VHS, what was the CED software market share v. VHS?

Remember we are talking a reported 60% standalone player sales and 40% software sales for HD DVD v. BD. In no business will this be considered as time to stop making HD DVD time.

3. Blockbuster saw a 70% to 30% rental advantage for BD and hence they decided to stop expanding HD DVD. Not many businesses I know of will dump 30% of their customers.

The fact is that companies can make strange decisions about HD media today because the sales volume are low. However, in $ terms we have two formats that are pretty close currently and competitive with one another. IMO the Blockbuster move was a PR move by the BDA. Can a single rental chain determine the format war? I am not sure, Blockbuster certainly could not save VHS from DVD, or losing 15% market share to Netflix in a few short years....

Let's face it. The PS3 provided Blu Ray with a minimum installed base of x number of users. These users would purchase a certain number of disks irrespective of how good or bad BD looked compared to HD DVD. The problem is that this user base is what pretty much makes up what is Blu Ray today and the HD DVD user base isn't as big as the PS3 baseline. The biggest difference between the two formats is that Blu Ray started out with a much larger initial install base - the PS3 owner. The HD DVD group launched several months before the PS3, but were able to sell only around 30K or so players before PS3 came on the scene.

However, eventually, for either format to go mainstream the user base has to get much larger and diverse than the PS3 installed base. In this critical growth area, I don't see BD as having an advantage over HD DVD.

I am well aware that in the US we like to declare things over as soon as possible or predict outcomes after we look at a couple of data points. However, that is not how things work and the BDA saying over and over again that the format war is over is not going to make it so.....there is yet a lot of game time left here and we will hear plenty of new announcements. From what I am told, HD DVD is ramping up, not closing shop.

Somebody has this at the tip of the fingers..what % of HDM titles are in HD-DVD only?

How many more years do BM Video rental stores have? Four? Six? I wonder why they would bother going to one format & alienating a few customers when they lose market share every quarter. HD/BD has to be what 1% of their total sales?Just a guess but maybe they're risking alienating 0.3% of their customers so they'll be around past 6 years?

From what I am told, HD DVD is ramping up, not closing shop.

Who told you this Plazman ??? Are you a HDDVD insider ??

...

This is a weak answer. If these are critical reasons for consumers, then why is BB seeing a 70/30 rental split, and why are we seeing 2:1 sales ratios this year? Clearly customers are not checking out the attach rate before making their purchase decisions.

You seeing those ratios because br has 10(..?15):1 ratio in players out there.

So a 2:1 sales ratio advantage for software is not that good. It should have been much higher.

Most of the PS3 owners are not buying movies as it is and are renting them instead. It's a gaming device mostly.

Assume 100k br players and 1500k PS3 (Should be close to actual sales)
Look at some movie sales from titles considered showcase releases that early adopters like to show off. Casino Royale and Pirates (one or two doesn't matter most early adopters will buy both).

Lets say 80000 for each of these titles.

How to split these 80000 for a title across 1.6 million players?
We can assume that folks with standalone br players are more likely to buy movies. But just split even 40k for standalones and 40k for PS3 owners.

It really isn't that good in an early adopter market. An over 10:1 player ratio and some block buster titles supposed to be heavy hitters didn't do much in the disk sales (and rental) 2:1 ratio the last couple of months.

So far the format war is a stalemate.

No doubt that this is good pr for br. But it might hurt sales numbers for discs in the short term.
Now that br rentals are becoming a bit more available at BloBust it also means that it might take away some future br disc sales as renting becomes easier.

The BloBust decision could be because of some deal with the BDA or it might have been a business descision on it's on merit.

It would be a smart business move to play out the HDDVD and BDA camps against each other to get a(nother) deal.

From what I am told, HD DVD is ramping up, not closing shop.
If you continue to read the damage control spin posted by MS employees in the insiders thread then it's no wonder you have this opinion.

I am also skeptical of web-based content associated with a movie that will probably disappear after a while. I would prefer to have everything loaded on the disk so that I know I can always get it.

Having seen and used an internet connected HD DVD release, it makes me incredibly wary of my collection. Mainly I'm glad that movies themselves will be fine for the long run and that I generally have little interest in extras as those will be used in a way that won't please many. The concept is interesting enough but the initial execution (regardless of format) will be gimmicky for some time to come.

And obviously we are talking about the HDM market, since no self-respecting HDM consumer will rent DVD's.

There's only about 300 titles per format (maybe 500 total if you're neutral). Pretty much all of that content is just hollywood hits from the past 5-10 years. I personally like movies a bit too much to limit myself to such a small pool of film.

But, then again, I consider myself a "self-respecting film buff", not an "HDM consumer".

Are we going to hear from HD DVD camp anytime soon, why are they dead silent?

I don't know what you're talking about. They're quoted in just about every article I've read (calling the decision "shortsighted") and Warren Lieberfarb was on CNBC yesterday discussing Blockbuster's move.

Are we going to hear from HD DVD camp anytime soon, why are they dead silent?

This is yet another example of my extreme disappointment with HD's PR campaign. It's like they have the Young Republicans/Democrats acting as campaign managers for the President Elect. They have been utterly inept from a marketing standpoint.

Lowering prices is great, but you have to actually "sell" your product at the PR level in order to sell it in the stores.