I don't know what you're talking about. They're quoted in just about every article I've read (calling the decision "shortsighted") and Warren Lieberfarb was on CNBC yesterday discussing Blockbuster's move.

PR is about more than damage control. How about being proactive instead of reactive? They have been so reactive for the majority of this war on the PR front.

Of course, Blu-ray players have Internet connections as well. Our PS3 seems to do that very well.

This is one thing I found very strange that he mentioned...Internet connectivity being mandated. That may be so, but why is it that the only device I've ever had problems connecting to my LAN is the Tosh XA2? I've never had problems with any other device, PS3 included, finding my network.

There's too much Bravo Sierra on both sides of this war for me, to be honest. I'm used to the cut-and-dry, STFU mentality of the military to have patience for this.

PR is about more than damage control. How about being proactive instead of reactive? They have been so reactive for the majority of this war on the PR front.

I'm definitely not saying that they've been great on the PR front (I'd be doing things a LOT differently). I was just responding to the comment that we've yet to hear from them and they have been "dead silent".


That being said, we don't know how much advance notice they had about this decision. They may have been forced to "react" to this, rather than be able to get in front of it.

Well for me some of my worst fears were realized.

On the plus side it was on the evening news, 1st time I've ever heard HiDef media mentioned.

Sadly, just what the "war" has done - they were laughing (caught it on two stations_, a definate "who gives a damn" attitude. Would seem that both formats are fast becoming "so what, like it matters".

^

I've seen that attitude on news programs too... basically a "what the hell is this HD stuff they're talking about... sounds expensive... and I don't want to rebuy my DVDs" type of response to these stories from the reporters/anchors. I've seen it a few times.

The whole adoption of HD media is going to take a lot longer than most people here seem to think. Probably longer than companies like Sony and Toshiba (and Blockbuster) think too.

I'm definitely not saying that they've been great on the PR front (I'd be doing things a LOT differently). I was just responding to the comment that we've yet to hear from them and they have been "dead silent".


That being said, we don't know how much advance notice they had about this decision. They may have been forced to "react" to this, rather than be able to get in front of it.

I think in certain respects the HD folks are smart as whips. Cut through all the BS from Blu-ray drum beaters, and you have to give credit to HD where it's due. They pulled a Henry Ford with DVD manufacturing lines. MSFT got involved. They are rapidly reducing the prices of players. They are region-free. Etc. etc.

Then OTOH you have this PR nightmare. I do indeed believe they knew of BBI's decision beforehand...in the business world, I see no logical reason to suspect otherwise. It's basically arguing that they are stupid, because if they are in this format war and they didn't know that, they are indeed stupid.

I think they knew beforehand without a doubt, and I think they weren't prepared for it on the PR front. That is at least the impression they give by maintaining radio silence (or pretty much close to radio silence).

I'm definitely not saying that they've been great on the PR front (I'd be doing things a LOT differently). I was just responding to the comment that we've yet to hear from them and they have been "dead silent".


That being said, we don't know how much advance notice they had about this decision. They may have been forced to "react" to this, rather than be able to get in front of it.

Well, there was a press release just recently how well HD DVD player sales were going with the discount and disc offerings.

Now there is this news from BloBust. So who is reacting to who?

This is a game going back and forth.

If this is a BloBust business decision on it's own merit then bda got lucky.
However I'm very certain that before this has been made public there would have been talks between BloBust and bda. If BloBust ceo's are smart the would heave smelled a deal or two in this format war. There are two sides to play.

Well, there was a press release just recently how well HD DVD player sales were going with the discount and disc offerings.

Now there is this news from BloBust. So who is reacting to who?

This is a game going back and forth.

If this is a BloBust business decision on it's own merit then bda got lucky.
However I'm very certain that before this has been made public there would have been talks between BloBust and bda. If BloBust ceo's are smart the would heave smelled a deal or two in this format war. There are two sides to play.

The news the other day was that Toshiba had 60% of the standalone market. I think most here had assumed they had a much larger share of the standalone market before that press release.

Seems that the Blockbuster story has more weight, but only time will tell.

Considering the conspiracy theories being posted by the same old Blu-ray haters I want to post a few quotes from Blockbuster COO Nick Shepherd (http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=383736735&play=1) explaining again why Blockbuster made this perfectly rational decision:

"That right now in this point in time there was a greater demand for Blu-ray..."

"This was purely around consumers telling us that at this point in time they favored Blu-ray..."

"The bottom line today is that consumers have chosen Blu-ray initially..."

"Initially this decision is based purely on the number of rents we have seen in our 250 pioneering stores..."

But what this says is not what the local news is saying ... either way, the local news is what the average consumer is going to listen to, so any damage would have already been done. *shrug*

From what I am told, HD DVD is ramping up, not closing shop.

I'm new to all this HD stuff and not sure what to buy. I do want highquality pictures since DVDs are starting to look a bit rough on my TV now. I cant really afford to buy more than one player. Would you recommend that I buy a HD-DVD player?

I'm new to all this HD stuff and not sure what to buy. I do want highquality pictures since DVDs are starting to look a bit rough on my TV now. I cant really afford to buy more than one player. Would you recommend that I buy a HD-DVD player?
You asked the wrong person for an unbiased opinion...

You asked the wrong person for an unbiased opinion...

I don't think he is looking for an unbiased opinion, and he sure isn't going to get one.

I think he is trying to prove that some people will recommend you buy into a format that he feels is not as safe a bet as another format.

An honest answer from anyone in the know would probably be to wait and see before buying into HD DVD at this time (probably BD as well). Unless you are in the market for an upconverting player and would pay a little more for the ability to play HD DVDs even if HD DVD may not be around in a few years.

I'm new to all this HD stuff and not sure what to buy. I do want highquality pictures since DVDs are starting to look a bit rough on my TV now. I cant really afford to buy more than one player. Would you recommend that I buy a HD-DVD player?

Not really the thread for this, but the quickest answer is that your watching experience will be radically similar with both formats. Both have been putting out great looking/sounding titles.

That leaves you with price, titles, supplements, and a bit of crystal-balling to guess which is more likely to be around for the long haul. And only you can make that decision for yourself. Personally, I looked at all of those factors and went with HD DVD.

I'd also look at upconverting capabilities of whatever player you're looking at, to help your standard DVDs look less rough.

Good luck.

You've thought wrong - the chart you've quoted, that's the first time you're seeing this chart.
The date of the numbers is there "06.18.07"
Check the other charts and you'll see they were not up to date, thanks.

Personally I don't think it's even at all - Blu-ray is far ahead on SQ, thanks to the more frequent inclusion on lossless audio.

Okay ... you don't think it's even ... I think it's pretty close ... we might just have to agree to disagree on this one ... I went through the 6.18 numbers you posted and came up with this:

HD-DVD Averages: PQ: 3.93, AQ: 3.72, Overall: 3.83
Blu-ray Averages: PQ: 3.98, AQ: 3.99, Overall: 3.99

Soo ... yes, Blu-ray is ahead, mostly due to SQ like you mentioned, and likely -- as you also mentioned -- this is due to the PCM encodings on the disc. As several reviewers have noted, they'll give a title with PCM a slightly better review just because it's there, regardless of whether or not it really sounds better. I don't want to get into a Lossless vs. Lossy discussion (again) here, but it seems that the majority of folks won't have the gear to be able to hear the difference between DD+ and PCM and TrueHD, for example.

Furthermore, I haven't heard of many reviews coming out to say, "Wow! This movie got 3.78 Stars!" Aside from a few of the folks here, no one looks at it like that. It's usually broken down, at most, by halfs. So, with overall scores of 3.82 to 3.99, both round to 4.00 stars ... and, even if you don't round, we're talking about an overal delta of .17 ... is that benefit worth the extra $$ in cost? The hardcore will likely say yes ... but the overwhelming majority of the average consumer will probably say no. *shrug*

Absolutely! I would highly recommend an HD DVD Player. Test it out. If you like get both BD and HD DVD and try out a few titles and see which you prefer. Also, consider which formats current catalog of titles you prefer....

For titles like PoTC that are only available in BD, compare how the BD version looks on your display, then compare to the SD upconverted and you will know what you are missing. Do the same for HD DVD exclusive titles. Also, consider the trade off between HD and SD on your favorite titles. The fact is that whether you buy a BD or HD DVD player you will be able to watch all movies the only difference is the ratio you will see in HD and SD. Whichever format you buy you will have to consider SD upconversion.

As for HD, I prefer HD DVD because I prefer the total package of a more elegant menu system (PoTC on the BD side is an excpetion), a more elegant presentation of extras (U-Controls for Universal, IME for Warner), and more consistent PQ since mpeg 2 is almost never used. Also on the audio side all titles use DD+. So, unlike BD where several titles have plain DD, HD DVD requires at least DD+. So, while the best BD titles are as good as the best HD DVD titles IMO, and none beat PoTC in terms of total package (excluding movie quality), the more consistently excellent format is HD DVD for me.

As for future of the format war, let me just say that until MSFT goes format neutral, there is no chance of HD DVD failing. GE, WB, Intel, HP and MSFT are major US companies that favor HD DVD over BD. Even Apple who is on the BDA board, has released a product for HD DVD before they did anything for BD. So, go where the investments are being made....Many companies started off slow with HD DVD but are now ramping up. These companies were focused on BD for the past 2 years, but now are looking to HD DVD. Why would that be the case if it is failing?

If you look at anyone who supports HD DVD they are putting a lot of effort. OTOH, except for Sony the rest of the BDA is just doing mostly a lot of talk....talk is cheap, investing money is what counts. For all the FUD against MSFT, they are investing a lot in the success of HD DVD. The fact that they are not tieing its success to a game console is a case of good management making the right decision. It isn't wise to jump into a well just because your neighbor did :)

So finally, IF you want to get into HD media you should weigh the factors and decide for yourself. There is a lot of propaganda and FUD, but trust your own judgment.

Who are the major players in the format war?

Studios: the majority have selected Blu-ray
CE Manufactures: the majority have selected Blu-ray
Retailers: Split (though now starting to favor Blu-ray; Blockbuster)
Consumers: the majority have selected Blu-ray

Unity is upon us.

So finally, IF you want to get into HD media you should weigh the factors and decide for yourself. There is a lot of propaganda and FUD, but trust your own judgment.

there are also new rumors and announcements like the one discussed here nearly every week: expect more of the same from both sides for quite some time

and before you ask: I am format neutral, own an XA2 and an SBP-S1 and have no preference to either side...

except I want more HD releases and eventually a settlement of this ridiculous format battle: this is a battle between the big CE companies and studios and should not cause this level of angst between AVS members

and more consistent PQ since mpeg 2 is almost never used.

Incorrect. Universal's catalog titles have slipped perceptibly in PQ as of late.

Incorrect. Universal's catalog titles have slipped perceptibly in PQ as of late.

Kenneth from HighDefDigest quotes


It doesn't take an economist to determine that the studio is probably just trying to keep the number of titles available on HD DVD neck-and-neck with the number of Blu-ray titles being released. But while this may make sense as a competitive business strategy, Universal is arguably shooting itself in the foot with the most passionate early adopters by not taking the time to deliver product that truly showcases the advantages of high definition. After all, what's the point of spending all the extra money to replace your standard DVD collection when the studio hasn't taken the prep time to make the high-def edition look its best?


Quantity over quality is apparently whats going on with Universal right now.

I'm new to all this HD stuff and not sure what to buy. I do want highquality pictures since DVDs are starting to look a bit rough on my TV now. I cant really afford to buy more than one player. Would you recommend that I buy a HD-DVD player?

Honestly joe, if I were you I'd be patient just a bit longer and see where the cards have fallen around Xmastime. If your budget is a bit tight, just wait.

If you insist on jumping in, either buy the PS3 for Blu-ray, or buy the A20 for HD DVD. YMMV.

there are also new rumors and announcements like the one discussed here nearly every week
Yet you made this one a sticky, why is that?

This certainly warrant being a sticky.
J

Who are the major players in the format war?

Studios: the majority have selected Blu-ray
CE Manufactures: the majority have selected Blu-ray
Retailers: Split (though now starting to favor Blu-ray; Blockbuster)
Consumers: the majority have selected Blu-ray

Unity is upon us.

How about this instead:

Titles: total number of software is a tie across formats
Players: the majority of stand-alones sold are HD DVD
Sales: are favoring blu-ray by all of 445,000 discs. yipee.
Price: is favoring HD DVD, with players available for about half of the BD price tag.
Consumers: the majority have selected standard DVD and don't yet care about HD.

There's lots of ways to spin this... but to start using terms like "majority" for a format that has only sold 1.6 million titles in 12 months is obviously stretching it.

Yet you made this one a sticky, why is that?

To try to stop hundreds of individual threads from being created.

And it wasn't Mark, fwiw.

How about this instead:

Titles: total number of software is a tie across formats
Players: the majority of stand-alones sold are HD DVD
Sales: are favoring blu-ray by all of 445,000 discs. yipee.
Price: is favoring HD DVD, with players available for about half of the BD price tag.
Consumers: the majority have selected standard DVD and don't yet care about HD.

There's lots of ways to spin this... but to start using terms like "majority" for a format that has only sold 1.6 million titles in 12 months is obviously stretching it.

"majority" - A majority is a subset of a group that is more than half of the entire group

What term should be used?

there are also new rumors and announcements like the one discussed here nearly every week: expect more of the same from both sides for quite some time

and before you ask: I am format neutral, own an XA2 and an SBP-S1 and have no preference to either side...

except I want more HD releases and eventually a settlement of this ridiculous format battle: this is a battle between the big CE companies and studios and should not cause this level of angst between AVS members

A truism - but unfortunately a major part of our society. Baseball, Football, NASCAR, dare I say it . . Soccer . . . all have fans and supporters.

For the first time in over 20 years we have a major confrontation in the CE world. The stakes are high and the entry cost is low compared to other technologies.

We have the mis-informed, the well - informed and the un-informed here at AVS. This will cause all kinds of "angst" as promoters of their choosen format strive to influence others to agree and copy their decision. . . and attack those who disagree.

It is the worst thing to happen to CE. It is the worst thing to happen to AVS.

And it will continue to do so as time moves forward and no winner emerges.

"majority" - A majority is a subset of a group that is more than half of the entire group

What term should be used?

How about a term that makes it clear that when we say "majority" we mean about 60% of a group that is very, very, very, VERY small? At an early stage where both sides are seeing changes/growth.

You don't think saying "Consumers: the majority have selected Blu-ray" at least implies more than it should?



You're right: Majority does mean more than half. Which is what I was saying... you can spin this any way you want. Josh's list makes it seem like BD has won the war and can now collect the trophy. I could make another (completely accurate) list that tilts toward HD DVD. It would be VERY easy to make a third (completely list) that shows that standard DVD rules -- *that's* where the majority is.

To try to stop hundreds of individual threads from being created.

And it wasn't Mark, fwiw.

true: since this story came out on Sunday there have been scores of new threads started: most of them were closed with a redirect here

This is big news and a sticky is appropriate: please don't shoot the messenger (or sticker!)

Most sensible post here. I don't see why anyone would be happy about that, regardless if it favors their choice. I guess we no longer live in the times where/when consumers chose what they want, instead leaving it up to corporations to "tell" us what we want.

I guess this all falls exactly how Sony wanted it too. Force the format onto everyone.
But the consumer has chosen. They had a choice, either low cost players or better studio support and they chose the better studio support. Blockbuster would not have made this decision, if there had been higher support for HD DVD, but the numbers do not lie. We also see similar sales numbers at the online retail stores. It wasn't about corporations deciding the outcome, it was the consumers.

How about this instead:

Titles: total number of software is a tie across formats
Players: the majority of stand-alones sold are HD DVD
Sales: are favoring blu-ray by all of 445,000 discs. yipee.
Price: is favoring HD DVD, with players available for about half of the BD price tag.
Consumers: the majority have selected standard DVD and don't yet care about HD.

There's lots of ways to spin this... but to start using terms like "majority" for a format that has only sold 1.6 million titles in 12 months is obviously stretching it.

Do you know what the word "majority" means? But let's use your categories:

Titles: the majority are on Blu-ray
Players: the majority are Blu-ray players
Sales: the majority are Blu-ray
Price: Split. Players are on average cheaper for HD DVD, titles on average are cheaper for Blu-ray
Consumers: the majority of HD consumers are selecting Blu-ray

Unity is upon us.

But the consumer has chosen. They had a choice, either low cost players or better studio support and they chose the better studio support. Blockbuster would not have made this decision, if there had been higher support for HD DVD, but the numbers do not lie. We also see similar sales numbers at the online retail stores. It wasn't about corporations deciding the outcome, it was the consumers.

10 minutes into the first round and you already want to blow the whistle? :rolleyes:

Customers preferred the cheaper HD DVD standalone players and the Wii as the preferred game console.

Do you know what the word "majority" means? But let's use your categories:

Titles: the majority are on Blu-ray
Players: the majority are Blu-ray players
Sales: the majority are Blu-ray
Price: Split. Players are on average cheaper for HD DVD, titles on average are cheaper for Blu-rayConsumers: the majority of HD consumers are selecting Blu-ray

Unity is upon us.

Link?

And most professional reviewers seem to unanimously disagree with you, not to mention PotC has a fantastic lossless audio track, Hows King Kongs?

And banding according to a professional reviewer. So much for higher bitrate.

Link?

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/

Compares Amazon average prices. You could also compare the fact that Combos are always $5 more MSRP for the HD DVD version in general.

10 minutes into the first round and you already want to blow the whistle? :rolleyes:

Customers preferred the cheaper HD DVD standalone players and the Wii as the preferred game console.

I would say that customer prefer Blu-ray hardware as it outnumbers HD-DVD hardware like 10:1.

Also customers prefer Blu-ray software as it outnumbers HD-DVD software 2:1.

Blockbuster saw Blu-ray overwhelmingly preferred to HD-DVD, so they are phasing out HD-DVD for their future plans. Why is this so difficult for the HD-DVD supporters to accept? This is the true start to their being one HD format.

Now if Target goes Blu soon, another major statement.

~Josh

I would say that customer prefer Blu-ray hardware as it outnumbers HD-DVD hardware like 10:1.

Also customers prefer Blu-ray software as it outnumbers HD-DVD software 2:1.

...

What's wrong with this picture? :rolleyes:

I'm new to all this HD stuff and not sure what to buy. I do want highquality pictures since DVDs are starting to look a bit rough on my TV now. I cant really afford to buy more than one player. Would you recommend that I buy a HD-DVD player?
Hell, yes.

Let everyone call my answer biased, but the other answer are just as biased, let's face it.

However, for $200-$300, you get access to some 300 movies in HD, and great upscaling of DVDs also. There are exclusive movies on both sides, but the price of entry into HD DVD is much lower, and you get TruHD and DD+ decoding to boot.

All the noise here is mainly to frighten people from committing such a small investment into making their home theater even better.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/

Compares Amazon average prices. You could also compare the fact that Combos are always $5 more MSRP for the HD DVD version in general.

But Planet Earth in HD DVD is the #3 best seller at $66.65 while the BD version is #12 so it didn't make the chart.

That is like comparing 10 BD titles to 12 HD DVD titles.

FUD!

All the noise here is mainly to frighten people from committing such a small investment into making their home theater even better.

So that's why your making all this noise? ;)

Any word from Bill Hunt and the digital bits on this yet?

Any word from Bill Hunt and the digital bits on this yet?

Of course, though not very colorful compared to past editorials

http://thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

Now then... here's the first big news item today: Blockbuster Video has just announced that it's expanding Blu-ray Disc rentals to 1,700 stores by mid-July, but it's not expanding HD-DVD rentals. The company has already been carrying both formats online and in 250 test stores, but the decision to expand just Blu-ray was made because customers were reportedly choosing Blu-ray rentals over HD-DVD at the test locations by a 70% margin. You can read more here at Video Business and here at Daily Variety. One thing that's worth noting here: The Weinstein Company has an exclusive 4-year rental arrangement with Blockbuster (click here for more on that), which means that this development could push The Weinsteins to go format neutral. Previously, they've released titles only on HD-DVD.

But Planet Earth in HD DVD is the #3 best seller at $66.65 while the BD version is #12 so it didn't make the chart.

That is like comparing 10 BD titles to 12 HD DVD titles.

FUD!

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. You mean the average prices are only calculated if its rank is less than 10 ?

Is average price not all BD media and HDDVD media ?
Even with the matrix box sets, the average price would still be higher for HDDVD.

But Planet Earth in HD DVD is the #3 best seller at $66.65 while the BD version is #12 so it didn't make the chart.

That is like comparing 10 BD titles to 12 HD DVD titles.

FUD!

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/index.cfm#10

It takes into account prices of all discs, not just the Top 10 :rolleyes: The average price of a Blu-ray disc at Amazon is $28 while for an HD DVD disc it is $36.

So that's why your making all this noise? ;)
You'd prefer no opposing viewpoints? ;)

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/index.cfm#10

It takes into account prices of all discs, not just the Top 10 :rolleyes: The average price of a Blu-ray disc at Amazon is $28 while for an HD DVD disc it is $36.

You still lost me. You showed me a link that has 20 BD's on the left and 20 HD DVD's on the right. BD has Planet Earth as an expensive title. HD DVD has:

Planet Earth
The Matrix Collection - Basic Edition
The Matrix Collection - Collectors edition
Hero's First Season.

BD has one expensive title while HD DVD has 4

Am I missing something?

You'd prefer no opposing viewpoints? ;)

I would prefer valid opposing viewpoints, rather than sour grapes, anti-trust investigations and disc rot. :eek:

Also customers prefer Blu-ray software as it outnumbers HD-DVD software 2:1.


I am trying to decide if I should try to find the reason behind this one or just ignore it. So you are telling me that right now Blu-Ray has 600-700 titles available to purchase compared to the 300 of HD-DVD?

What? :eek:

You still lost me. You showed me a link that has 20 BD's on the left and 20 HD DVD's on the right. BD has Planet Earth as an expensive title. Am I missing something?

Yes.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/price-1-1-recent30.jpg

This graph shows the average price of all Blu-ray and HD DVD discs at Amazon, independent of the Top 10, Top 20, Top 100, or even a Top 1000 list. Its overall prices comparison at Amazon. For reference, the Blue line is Blu-ray while the Black line is HD DVD. This is the current graph from today.

Also customers prefer Blu-ray software as it outnumbers HD-DVD software 2:1.


I am trying to decide if I should try to find the reason behind this one or just ignore it. So you are telling me that right now Blu-Ray has 600-700 titles available to purchase compared to the 300 of HD-DVD?

What? :eek:

He is referring to a sales statistic not to the amount of movies available....I think the actuall difference is between 5 and 10 and in HD-DVDs Favor.

You still lost me. You showed me a link that has 20 BD's on the left and 20 HD DVD's on the right. BD has Planet Earth as an expensive title. HD DVD has:

Planet Earth
The Matrix Collection - Basic Edition
The Matrix Collection - Collectors edition
Hero's First Season.

BD has one expensive title while HD DVD has 4

Am I missing something?

I added the 20 BD titles with the prices listed on that site, divided by 20 and got 24.514, he is reporting $28 so I don't think it is an average of the top 20.

Keep in mind BD will be adding the matrix as well this year. Also keep in mind....The Matrix isn't what it used to be after those other 2 movies.... These movies aren't the AAA titles that would swing people over anymore.

Keep in mind BD will be adding the matrix as well this year. Also keep in mind....The Matrix isn't what it used to be after those other 2 movies.... These movies aren't the AAA titles that would swing people over anymore.

Here is hoping we get The Matrix by itself soon, I don't want to purchase the other two.

Of course, since this is about Blockbuster, I could see adding them to my queue just for the PQ/AQ and action.

Yes.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/price-1-1-recent30.jpg

This graph shows the average price of all Blu-ray and HD DVD discs at Amazon, independent of the Top 10, Top 20, Top 100, or even a Top 1000 list. Its overall prices comparison at Amazon. For reference, the Blue line is Blu-ray while the Black line is HD DVD. This is the current graph from today.

This is avg. price of the top 10 titles ONLY. Please don't say something that is obviously untrue!

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/index.cfm#10

It takes into account prices of all discs, not just the Top 10 :rolleyes: The average price of a Blu-ray disc at Amazon is $28 while for an HD DVD disc it is $36.


You know you are wrong. Did you post this misinformation on purpose?

How about this instead:

Titles: total number of software is a tie across formats
Players: the majority of stand-alones sold are HD DVD
Sales: are favoring blu-ray by all of 445,000 discs. yipee.
Price: is favoring HD DVD, with players available for about half of the BD price tag.
Consumers: the majority have selected standard DVD and don't yet care about HD.

There's lots of ways to spin this... but to start using terms like "majority" for a format that has only sold 1.6 million titles in 12 months is obviously stretching it.

Hmm I see this
Titles: total number of software is a tie across formats - but titles released on both formats generally sell better on BR (notable exeption in Planet Earth)
Players: the majority of stand-alones sold are HD DVD - by the slim margin of 60-40, the majority of HDM capable machines are Bluray
Sales: are favoring blu-ray by all of 445,000 discs. By the way this margin is 67-33 Year to Date
Price: is favoring HD DVD, with players available for about half of the BD price tag. And software prices are generally favoring BR. I don't know about others but I am willing to bet that I will spend more on software (renting and buying) over the course of this format than on hardware, right now I'm at $600-$200 and I've only been at it for about 4 months.
Consumers: the majority have selected standard DVD and don't yet care about HD. Thats all well and good but the same could have been said of DVD at this point in it's life. So the only way we can gain information is to look at those who have made a choice. In software sales BR is leading 2-1 (notice that no qualifers are needed for that number) In hardware sales, standalones only (qualifyer), HD-DVD has the lead 1.5-1 but we all know that standalones are not the only players available.

Yes.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/price-1-1-recent30.jpg

This graph shows the average price of all Blu-ray and HD DVD discs at Amazon, independent of the Top 10, Top 20, Top 100, or even a Top 1000 list. Its overall prices comparison at Amazon. For reference, the Blue line is Blu-ray while the Black line is HD DVD. This is the current graph from today.

But it's a worthless comparison because it doesn't compare like titles.

More fuzzy math on AVS...who'd a thunk it?

Yes.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/price-1-1-recent30.jpg

This graph shows the average price of all Blu-ray and HD DVD discs at Amazon, independent of the Top 10, Top 20, Top 100, or even a Top 1000 list. Its overall prices comparison at Amazon. For reference, the Blue line is Blu-ray while the Black line is HD DVD. This is the current graph from today.

And once again I bring up the issue of box sets in HD DVD versus box sets in BD. You don't think that is going to skew that graph?

What's wrong with this picture? :rolleyes:

Absolutely NOTHING!

Where has this higher attach rate helped HD-DVD?

Lets see: It has not helped them at all in disc sales, it helped them lose Blockbuster, it looks like it will help them lose Target. Probably Bestbuy isn't too far behind these two. Yeah, attach rates matter so much :rolleyes:

This Format Always Has Been and Always Will Be About SOFTWARE Sales. (Well What Remains of This Format War As It Appears About Over)

End Of Story.

~Josh

Price is the only thing keeping consumers out, and both formats are going to get supported in future players. That's the key to mainstream acceptance.

Its not keeping me out. The format war is what has been keeping me on the sidelines.

HD-DVD has the lead 1.5-1 but we all know that standalones are [ed - not] the only players available.

That's the weird thing, HD DVD has had a huge price advantage on the standalones for a very long time now, but they still only have about 60% of the market for HDM standalones.

So while HD DVD may have sold around 150,000 at a low/medium price, BD has sold 100,000 at a medium/high price point. I wonder which has generated more revenue(?)

Here is hoping we get The Matrix by itself soon, I don't want to purchase the other two.

Of course, since this is about Blockbuster, I could see adding them to my queue just for the PQ/AQ and action.

I have them cause i l ike them but i know some people really dont. And for some people parts 2 and 3 ruined the original

This is avg. price of the top 10 titles ONLY. Please don't say something that is obviously untrue!

I just did the math. Well that is a worthless graph then. And no, I didn't know that.

I just did the math. Well that is a worthless graph then. And no, I didn't know that.
Honest mistake. :) It was a high average, but the graph is misleading.

Honest mistake. :) It was a high average, but the graph is misleading.

No kidding. If you want to look at an extended view, it will show you April and May of 2006, then jump directly to May and June of 2007. It tells you nothing.

Absolutely NOTHING!

Where has this higher attach rate helped HD-DVD?

It has helped HD DVD, which has a second place, in the installed base of players (7 to 1) keep the lead of BD versus HD DVD to only 2 to 1 as far as software sales.

Lets see: It has not helped them at all in disc sales, it helped them lose Blockbuster, it looks like it will help them lose Target. Probably Bestbuy isn't too far behind these two. Yeah, attach rates matter so much :rolleyes:

See above

This Format Always Has Been and Always Will Be About SOFTWARE Sales. (Well What Remains of This Format War As It Appears About Over)

End Of Story.

~Josh

The attach rate of HD DVD has kept HD DVD in the race and has prevented BD from an overall win.

I would call that very important.

It has helped HD DVD, which has a second place, in the installed base of players (7 to 1) keep the lead of BD versus HD DVD to only 2 to 1 as far as software sales.



See above



The attach rate of HD DVD has kept HD DVD in the race and has prevented BD from an overall win.

I would call that very important.

No. The flow of M$'s money to Universal and Toshiba has kept HD-DVD alive.

No. M$'s money has kept HD-DVD alive.

Link?

Link?
Google much?

^

I've seen that attitude on news programs too... basically a "what the hell is this HD stuff they're talking about... sounds expensive... and I don't want to rebuy my DVDs" type of response to these stories from the reporters/anchors. I've seen it a few times.

That's because news about HD optical discs doesn't sell. They feel they need to get their coverage of murder and mayhem to actually get any viewers. Mainstream media is about as useful as a screen door on a submarine.

The wonderful thing about media is once the damage is done, and IMO it has been, it's going to be very difficult for HD DVD to recover.

You're being misleading, Josh.

That is the average sale price, and is skewed by two Matrix Trilogy Box sets, which are not available on Bluray. Even POC on bluray is sold as single discs.

Using this as "proof" that HD DVD discs cost more than bluray discs is just plain disingenuous.

EDIT: I see this has been covered by a few now, oh well...
Yes.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/price-1-1-recent30.jpg

This graph shows the average price of all Blu-ray and HD DVD discs at Amazon, independent of the Top 10, Top 20, Top 100, or even a Top 1000 list. Its overall prices comparison at Amazon. For reference, the Blue line is Blu-ray while the Black line is HD DVD. This is the current graph from today.

Hmm, let me see in my own personal world I know of two others besides myself that have a HD DVD player, my cousin and a co-worker. I know of no one besides my nephew who has a PS3 and uses it mostly for games, that have a blu-ray player. Yet BB claims it is 70-30% for blu rentals. All I can say is interesting, very very interesting.

Well, in my personal world, I know of 3 people that have PS3s and 4 more people interested in Blu-ray/PS3 in the future. On top of that, I don't know of anyone with an HD-DVD player. Your small sample is really ridiculous and what is your point again?

This Format Always Has Been and Always Will Be About SOFTWARE Sales.

I'll keep my type small, but...

Software sales are currently 445,000 units in BD's favor. That's a "win"?

That's why all of this throwing around of the term "majority" or "customer choice" or presenting sales as a percentage are IMO deceptive. It glosses over the truth.

1.6 million sales for BD software
1.2 million sales for HD DVD software
445k separating the two.

That's the truth. And that shows that (a) not many people are buying and (b) there is a very small sales advantage for BD.

We can have people gloating and spinning on both sides of the format war, but the reality is that this whole thing is still up for grabs, and there's a genuine chance that *both* formats will fail to catch on.

Google much?

Not up to me to provide proof. You were the one that made the statement - you are the one that is required to defend it when challanged. :)

I just want one concession from BR fans: The 'majority of consumers' have NOT chosen blu-ray. The majority of consumers have stood on the sidelines while big corporations have fiddled with a tiny subset of 'early adopters' tantalizing them with silly stats, and by misinformation ( e.g. BB employees stating HD DVD does not do 1080p) and corporate strategic mistakes (Toshiba focused too much on the hardware and not enough on pushing the software) a huge minority of consumers have influenced the market for the rest of us.

This is the undisputable truth. Early adopters referring to themselves as 'the majority of consumers', on either side of this thing, is disingenuous and a heinous fallacy.

Did anyone mention that there will be a HD DVD presence in all high def enabled BB stores? When Warner's release their HD DVD/BD disc (that is still Warner's intention is it not?)

Using this as "proof" that HD DVD discs cost more than bluray discs is just plain disingenuous.

You are correct. I should have just stuck to the fact that Blu-ray discs are $5 cheaper when compared to their HD DVD Combo counterparts.

Do you know what the word "majority" means?

Of course I do, but you are using it in a deceptive way to make this seem more lopsided than it really is.


Let’s say I have a party and invite 3000 people. Everyone drinks lemonade except for 3 people that want bourbon. 1 of them orders a Jack Daniels. 2 of them order Jim Beam.

Yes, the "customers have chosen" and the "majority" favor Jim Beam. But explaining the whole picture gives the full story. Jack Daniels won't admit defeat in the whiskey wars and go home. There's still plenty of growth available among the 2,997 other individuals and the delta between Daniels and Beam isn't large or insurmountable.


And your info about HD DVD being more expensive is just blatantly deceptive and you know it. You know darn well that HD DVD has more box sets available (Smallville, 2 x Matrix, Heroes) than the other side, which skews the numbers.

BTW - I still think the title of the thread is incorrect.

At 1,700 stores out of 8,300 Blockbusters, this is 20% of BBs total B&M stores.

Further, the title makes it sound like there will be no HD DVD in other stores.

Is there something inherently difficult to understand with this?

I suppose you have proof of this, or is this just another baseless accusation to try to create ill-will for companies in the opposing camp? Let me guess... :rolleyes:

Give him a chance to answer. I have already asked him to provide a link and it has only been about 20 minutes since I did.

And the "challange" seems to have changed as this was the original so I prefer to stick with that:

Originally Posted by Bob Meridian
No. M$'s money has kept HD-DVD alive.

why vc1? sony and disney don't use it. again, if by dual format support you mean put out vc1 on both then again you are limiting winning format to support losing one. with retailers, double inventory is a major problem and again more than likely they would severly limit one. what about capacity difference between disks? limiting bd to 30GB is senseless.

Just to point out, at last count, something like 70% of BD Releases were on BD25s (does anyone have updated figures?) ... soooo ... by the same argument, limiting HD in general to 25GB and throwing away 5GB 70% of the time is senseless. :p

Originally Posted by rdjam
BTW - I still think the title of the thread is incorrect.

E-mail on of the moderators... If you've posted this note 10 times in a thread, it is obvious no one has seen it.

If they aren't going to change it then, let it go.

fitprod

BTW - I still think the title of the thread is incorrect.

At 1,700 stores out of 8,300 Blockbusters, this is 20% of BBs total B&M stores.

Further, the title makes it sound like there will be no HD DVD in other stores.

Is there something inherently difficult to understand with this?

we understand....it has already been changed more than once and your objections duly noted

now could we please move on?

Your head is in the clouds if you think this is going to blow away in the wind and go away ;) Blockbuster making headlines on the news and the name Blu-Ray has been mentioned numerous times over and over during the day as being the next format that is going to replace SD-DVD's is HUGE to say the least.. This is not only huge for Blu-Ray but for the adoption of High Definition as a whole. Ofcourse we have people who are unhappy with this news who have invested all of their beans in HD-DVD and have for some reason have an anti-Sony stance so strong that some say they will never ever buy a blu-ray player or a blu-ray disc. Eventually all of you people holding off from buying into Blu-Ray will have no choice if you want to watch your favorite movies that haven't been released yet like Star Wars and Indiana Jones... I truly believe this format war will be over by Christmas of this year and this move by Blockbuster is the catalyst that has started the chain reaction that cannot be stopped. No matter how HD-DVD fanboys play down Blockbuster as an old company that has been doing terrible and is in a steep decline and so forth, Blockbuster still has the largest percentage of the total rental market share and is in no danger of losing that with this move. I truly believe Blockbuster will gain more Blu-Ray supporters as the adoption rate grows (because of this news) and more and more Blu-Ray discs fill up the isles at Blockbuster. I believe Netflix will go Blu-Ray only pretty soon since it is to thier benefit that they don't lose all those Blu-Ray folk who like the idea of going to the store to pick up movies and having the ease of dropping a movie off to exchange it for another in an instant.. If you can't beat-em, join-em will be netflix's philosophy in my opinion and will go Blu-Ray sooner than later...

I'm not following the logic here ... NetFlix already does Blu-ray and has a larger Catalog than Blockbuster ... why would they go Blu-ray only? What 'folk' will they lose? Or are you suggesting that Blu-ray backers will 'boycott' Netflix since they are format neutral and instead go with Blockbuster? :confused:

Blockbuster doesn't have 8300 stores in the US. It's something like 5000.

Yes.

http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/graphs/price-1-1-recent30.jpg

This graph shows the average price of all Blu-ray and HD DVD discs at Amazon, independent of the Top 10, Top 20, Top 100, or even a Top 1000 list. Its overall prices comparison at Amazon. For reference, the Blue line is Blu-ray while the Black line is HD DVD. This is the current graph from today.

HD DVD Exclusive Boxsets which skew up that average

The Complete Matrix Trilogy
The Ultimate Matrix Collection
Smallville: Season 5
Forbidden Planet
Heroes: Season 1
Living Landscape Collection

Blu-Ray Exclusive Boxsets

Rescue Me: The Complete 3rd Season

Boxsets on both formats

Planet Earth
Sopranos: Season 6 Part 1
HD DVD/Blu-Ray Starter Set


HD DVD simply has more exclusive boxsets which skew up the average.

Hey mikey you switched to bluray yet?

Missing your humerous posts on highdefdigest.

Hey mikey you switched to bluray yet?

Missing your humerous posts on highdefdigest.

I left that site when HD DED started handing out warnings to me because of my format choice. It was funny because Merlins start telling people that I wanted HD porn, so I called him a "liar" and then I got warnings for it :rolleyes: So Merlins got off the hook from spreading lies about me, and I got warnings for calling him out. Of course HD DED hates HD DVD and loves Blu-Ray, Merlins is also a Blu-Ray guy... so there ya go. Until HD DED is no longer a mod I'm not going to post on the highdefdigest forums not when the mods selectively hand out warnings based upon personal biases.

But their reviews are still good :)

I just want one concession from BR fans: The 'majority of consumers' have NOT chosen blu-ray. The majority of consumers have stood on the sidelines while big corporations have fiddled with a tiny subset of 'early adopters' tantalizing them with silly stats, and by misinformation ( e.g. BB employees stating HD DVD does not do 1080p) and corporate strategic mistakes (Toshiba focused too much on the hardware and not enough on pushing the software) a huge minority of consumers have influenced the market for the rest of us.

This is the undisputable truth. Early adopters referring to themselves as 'the majority of consumers', on either side of this thing, is disingenuous and a heinous fallacy.

The majority of consumers participating in high-def playback of movies stored on an optical format have chosen Blu-ray over HD DVD. There, that should help appeal to everyones sensibilities.

now could we please move on? No probs.

Blockbuster doesn't have 8300 stores in the US. It's something like 5000.8,300 B&M locations worldwide, 4,200 owned
5,000 or so B&M locations in US, 1,700 owned

1,700 is 20 % of their B&M locations
1,700 is 34 % of their USA-only B&M locations

Now, if title meant "85% of the 1,700 BB-owned, US-only B&M storefronts will see BD expansion, but 250 will still have both, but 80% of BB B&M locations will not se expansion of either", then fine :)

The majority of consumers participating in high-def playback of movies stored on an optical format have chosen Blu-ray over HD DVD. There, that should help appeal to everyones sensibilities.


The majority of consumers participating in high-def playback of movies stored on an optical format, at the 250 test stores that BB monitored, have chosen Blu-ray over HD DVD. There, that should help appeal to everyones sensibilities

There . . I fixed it. :D

The majority of consumers participating in high-def playback of movies stored on an optical format, at the 250 test stores that BB monitored, have chosen Blu-ray over HD DVD. There, that should help appeal to everyones sensibilities

There . . I fixed it. :D

You went too far in fixing it though, because my comment stood as is - wholly accurate. Forget Blockbuster rentals - BD has been chosen by the group I illustrated in sales as well, and this applies across the planet the same as it does in the US specifically, on a very macro level.


Now, if title meant "85% of the 1,700 BB-owned, US-only B&M storefronts will see BD expansion, but 250 will still have both, but 80% of BB B&M locations will not se expansion of either", then fine :)

How about this: "85% of HD-participating Blockbusters will be Blu-ray exclusive"

Man there are some real hang-ups on language and phrasing around this place. Get over it guys, life goes on.

Until HD DED is no longer a mod I'm not going to post on the highdefdigest forums not when the mods selectively hand out warnings based upon personal biases.

But their reviews are still good :)Not to knock another site, but how does one get to be a mod there with such a obvious bias, that one uses an offensive user-name, as a moderator, as "HD DED"?

The majority of consumers participating in high-def playback of movies stored on an optical format have chosen Blu-ray over HD DVD. There, that should help appeal to everyones sensibilities.

Yep, I'll take that. You don't even have to supply the percentage of consumers we are talking about, I think most have a pretty fair idea...

No probs.

8,300 B&M locations worldwide, 4,200 owned
5,000 or so B&M locations in US, 1,700 owned

1,700 is 20 % of their B&M locations
1,700 is 34 % of their USA-only B&M locations

Now, if title meant "85% of the 1,700 BB-owned, US-only B&M storefronts will see BD expansion, but 250 will still have both, but 80% of BB B&M locations will not se expansion of either", then fine :)

Link to the info that shows only 1700 of their stores are 'owned' (not franchises)

Not saying it isn't true I just haven't seen any proof on that figure.

As far as the title goes, how about the title of the press release (since that is what this is about) Blockbuster to Expand Blu-Ray to 1,700 Stores

Oh yeah I've watched all the top tier titles of both formats including some really bad transfers in both as well. At the moment, Blu-Ray has the edge picture quality-wise and no it isn't hype based on specs. I have done many comparisons on multiple high-end projectors in home theaters that are worth over $80,000 including all the equipment. HD-DVD did have the edge with their early releases before and during Blu-Ray's intital launch. After BD50's started becoming the norm, things did change in Blu-Ray's favor in a big way. Black Hawk Down was the first BD50 that really shined. Since then we have had Casino Royal which was another excellent BD50 release as well as both Pirates films and most recently Apocalypto which has some scenes that out-do Pirates however it is not perfect since multiple camera's were used so not every shot is perfect. My friends who also visit this forum and we all have G2G's at each others homes are very picky. So far we have all come to the same conclusions recently. We all had to go back and play Chronicles of Riddick and Swordfish the other day to see some good HD-DVD transfers, however even the Matrix trilogy falls short when compared to Blu-ray's finest.. BD50 and LPCM is not hype and don't believe any HD-DVD fanboy that tells you otherwise. Go compare HD-DVD and Blu-Ray's best films for yourself and come back and argue which is better. King Kong is by far the best HD-DVD release so far in terms of picture quality, and even that doesn't match POTC DMC and Apocalypto in quality. Considering that King Kong was filled to the brim with its VC-1 codec that it lacked the room for a True-HD track is the perfect argument that space would have and could have made that release so much better. And yes I am very picky about sound quality as well all the way back to my Laserdisc collection which was the last format to have true uncompressed sound up until Blu-Ray :)

*sigh* ... here we go again ... disputed and confirmed by insiders that King Kong could have had a Lossless TrueHD Encode if the Studio wanted one. It was never in the plan. It wasn't there because it wasn't supposed to be -- no other reason.

Oh, and I don't think BD50's are the Norm ... pretty sure for 2007, the majority of releases have been BD25's. Speaking of POTC, what is the size of the movie?

Quick question.

Did anyone else notice how difficult it was to find new HD DVD releases at these 250 Blockbuster stores during the "trial" period?

I mean, I never saw newly released titles such as "The Matrix", "Children of Men", "Lost in Translation" or many other popular titles that folks would have wanted to rent.

How much do you think this affected those rental sales numbers that Blockbuster is talking about?

Not to knock another site, but how does one get to be a mod there with such a obvious bias, that one uses an offensive user-name, as a moderator, as "HD DED"?

There are also mods which support HD DVD on highdefdigest. It isn't suppose to get in the way of being a forum moderator and I defended HD DED early on, which in retrospect was a mistake. Highdefdigest has great reviews and they rarely post misinformation as news, if incorrect news is posted it is usually corrected very quickly. However the mods, HD DED specifically is clearly biased from my experience so I won't participate in their forum any longer.

That's the weird thing, HD DVD has had a huge price advantage on the standalones for a very long time now, but they still only have about 60% of the market for HDM standalones.

So while HD DVD may have sold around 150,000 at a low/medium price, BD has sold 100,000 at a medium/high price point. I wonder which has generated more revenue(?)

When you get right down to it, it's not cheap to buy into *either* format if one wants to get the full HD experience. Going from VHS to DVD was a LOT cheaper. Disk prices are outlandish, HDTVs are still expensive for the average consumer, plus you have to buy the players. That's pretty much the minimum setup right there.

What reason does Joe Schmoe have to buy into either one?

Link to the info that shows only 1700 of their stores are 'owned' (not franchises)

Not saying it isn't true I just haven't seen any proof on that figure.It was stated in one of the stories that they were rolling it to their owned stores.

As far as the title goes, how about the title of the press release (since that is what this is about) Blockbuster to Expand Blu-Ray to 1,700 StoresI like that - seems fair.

Actually - to be perfectly fair, I actually found Bill Hunt's coverage of this story when it broke to be accurately put. Other sites (such as swannabout) deliberately put a whole "BB going BD exclusive" spin on it, but Bill was pretty even handed.

Oh, and I don't think BD50's are the Norm ... pretty sure for 2007, the majority of releases have been BD25's.

Well, time to freshen up on your sources then - BD50 is the norm now for new releases.

Speaking of POTC, what is the size of the movie?

The movie or the disc?

The disc is a BD50, the space used is 45GB.

*sigh* ... here we go again ... disputed and confirmed by insiders that King Kong could have had a Lossless TrueHD Encode if the Studio wanted one. It was never in the plan. It wasn't there because it wasn't supposed to be -- no other reason.

Oh, and I don't think BD50's are the Norm ... pretty sure for 2007, the majority of releases have been BD25's. Speaking of POTC, what is the size of the movie?

Some specs

King Kong HD DVD
DD+ 1.5 mbps @ 3 hours and 8 minutes needs 2.12 GB capacity

Dolby True HD 16/48 1.4 mbps ABR @ 3 hours and 8 minutes needs 1.97 GB capacity

The entire "No room for TrueHD" has been shot down repeatedly. The Blu-boys just say it can't fit, then the HD DVD guys like me use facts to show that it could of fit. Universal studios has no more than 6 movies with TrueHD out of their >100 HD DVD titles.

There are also mods which support HD DVD on highdefdigest. It isn't suppose to get in the way of being a forum moderator and I defended HD DED early on, which in retrospect was a mistake. Highdefdigest has great reviews and they rarely post misinformation as news, if incorrect news is posted it is usually corrected very quickly. However the mods, HD DED specifically is clearly biased from my experience so I won't participate in their forum any longer.Yes, I like the site also, generally great reviews and good info. It's a staple of my diet and mostly very reliable. However, a few of the reviews lately have been quite tilted to BD, overlooking some PQ issues with top ratings, IMO. Doesn't make it a bad site tho.

What reason does Joe Schmoe have to buy into either one?

Yep, exactly. Plus Joe Schmoe likely thinks that once he's bought the HDTV, he's done. A pretty hefty percentage of HDTV owners view no HD content on it. And about 30% of owners think that the TV itself turns stuff into "HD", including their basic cable and standard DVDs.

It's an uphill battle for retailers and companies... that's why we're seeing adoption rates and sales that are so low across formats.

Yep, exactly. Plus Joe Schmoe likely thinks that once he's bought the HDTV, he's done. A pretty hefty percentage of HDTV owners view no HD content on it. And about 30% of owners think that the TV itself turns stuff into "HD", including their basic cable and standard DVDs
My kid works as an installer & he seems to think the number is closer to 50%......doesn't matter the heart of the matter is that avg consumer doesn't understand HD at all. The whole thing confuses them & gives them a headache = not a lot of interest.

Here's another idea for a topic title rename that would be completely factual:
"Blockbuster Online announces commitment to both next-gen high-def disc formats; Indicates clear winner too early to call"

:)

You'd prefer no opposing viewpoints? ;)

rdjam, for someone that has in their signature a link that talks about Blu-Ray disc rot which as we know it wasn't that but a manufacturing error, you do seem to be a little biased against ( edited from "towards" thanks to mod ;) ) Blu-Ray in your posts... Just a little....And I'm wondering what are you gaining by trying your very best to play down this HUGE news that Blockbuster goes Blu as something minor and not that important of a deal? You seem to be doing too much damage control for HD-DVD and if you are not getting paid by Microsoft or Toshiba a few cents a post, then I don't think it is worth it. You have every right to come in here and make as much spin as you want ;), However in this case, it doesn't get much more crystal clear how bad this is for HD-DVD and with upcoming Target going Blu next week who knows how quickly the Domino's will fall against HD-DVD.

It was stated in one of the stories that they were rolling it to their owned stores.

I like that - seems fair.

Actually - to be perfectly fair, I actually found Bill Hunt's coverage of this story when it broke to be accurately put. Other sites (such as swannabout) deliberately put a whole "BB going BD exclusive" spin on it, but Bill was pretty even handed.

Bill did add the 'bit' ;) about Weinstein, so that imho took a little away from the coverage. Without that part I think it would have looked better.

And the swanni guy is ridiculous, any man that spends that much time worrying about celebrity complexion is not someone who's site I will be frequenting.

Yep, exactly. Plus Joe Schmoe likely thinks that once he's bought the HDTV, he's done. A pretty hefty percentage of HDTV owners view no HD content on it. And about 30% of owners think that the TV itself turns stuff into "HD", including their basic cable and standard DVDs.

It's an uphill battle for retailers and companies... that's why we're seeing adoption rates and sales that are so low across formats.

Agreed. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in any way arguing that the average consumer is an idiot or dumb. (I've been vehemently fighting a battle about digital downloads in another thread and this came up LOL.) On the contrary, I think they are savvy in their own way...they want to get a good deal on whatever it is they buy. Additionally, their priorities are a lot different than us geeks with disposable incomes. Sometimes we seem to think that just because we like something and it's better, we think everyone can and will adopt it...hopefully we can all agree this is the truth.

I do however hope that at least one survives.

I'll keep my type small, but...

Software sales are currently 445,000 units in BD's favor. That's a "win"?

If the other numbers that came up earlier in this thread about BD having sales approximating 35 million and HD DVD having sales of about 19 million, then yeah, that 445K difference is a win.

Agreed. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in any way arguing that the average consumer is an idiot or dumb. (I've been vehemently fighting a battle about digital downloads in another thread and this came up LOL.) On the contrary, I think they are savvy in their own way...they want to get a good deal on whatever it is they buy. Additionally, their priorities are a lot different than us geeks with disposable incomes. Sometimes we seem to think that just because we like something and it's better, we think everyone can and will adopt it...hopefully we can all agree this is the truth.

I do however hope that at least one survives.

Agreed, I think people may be upset when they find out that their $1200 HDTV needs a $300+ HD DVD or $500+ Blu-Ray player to watch movies in high definition.

"You mean my thousand dollar TV needs ANOTHER couple hundred dollars of investment!"

BTW - I still think the title of the thread is incorrect.

At 1,700 stores out of 8,300 Blockbusters, this is 20% of BBs total B&M stores.

Further, the title makes it sound like there will be no HD DVD in other stores.

Is there something inherently difficult to understand with this?

Nope. But that's why the 85% is in the paranthesis. So that people who don't know what Blockbusters overall reach is. If it said "Blockbuster to carry Blu-ray only" was the title, then it would be wrong. As it stands now, the subject does not indicate what percentage of Blockbusters will carry Blu-ray. Just that Blockbuster will carry Blu-ray and that in the rental market they account for 85% of B&M rental locations).

It's not difficult to understand, but you seem intent on nitpicking this every couple of pages until it conforms to your views. It's been this way for a bit and nobody else really seems to have an issue with it, so you may want to tilt at some other windmill for a bit.

Agreed, I think people may be upset when they find out that their $1200 HDTV needs a $300+ HD DVD or $500+ Blu-Ray player to watch movies in high definition.

"You mean my thousand dollar TV needs ANOTHER couple hundred dollars of investment!"

Based on my personal experience you don't need HD DVD or Blu-ray to enjoy movies on an HDTV. The opportunity for adoption of HD DVD or Blu-ray comes from people noticing problems with DVDs that they never saw before because of their new TV.

The biggest issue for me (that stopped me from buying and renting DVD) was that much of the content I was already getting from my cable company looked better than DVD. If I had not adopted BD I would only be getting kids movies and recording stuff on my TiVo S3.

I left that site when HD DED started handing out warnings to me because of my format choice. It was funny because Merlins start telling people that I wanted HD porn, so I called him a "liar" and then I got warnings for it :rolleyes: So Merlins got off the hook from spreading lies about me, and I got warnings for calling him out. Of course HD DED hates HD DVD and loves Blu-Ray, Merlins is also a Blu-Ray guy... so there ya go. Until HD DED is no longer a mod I'm not going to post on the highdefdigest forums not when the mods selectively hand out warnings based upon personal biases.

But their reviews are still good :)

Don't feel targeted as HD-DED gave me a warning for been abusive to a hd-dvd supporter. He was really bad though, worse than you :)

If the other numbers that came up earlier in this thread about BD having sales approximating 35 million and HD DVD having sales of about 19 million, then yeah, that 445K difference is a win.

What post are you referring to, that gives these sales in millions. I must have missed that one.

Post #?

Based on my personal experience you don't need HD DVD or Blu-ray to enjoy movies on an HDTV. The opportunity for adoption of HD DVD or Blu-ray comes from people noticing problems with DVDs that they never saw before because of their new TV.

But people see the high definition video in Best Buy, Fry's, Circuit City, etc and think "Wow this TV has a real nice picture! No wonder why it costs $1500" then when they find out they need another half grand of investment they will obviously be a little upset don't you think?

Don't feel targeted as HD-DED gave me a warning for been abusive to a hd-dvd supporter. He was really bad though, worse than you :)

haha, yeah I agree he's worse than me! When I asked him to close my Highdefdigest username he warned be again for being "mean to the mods." Well it doesn't matter. AVSForum has more members, I like it here alot better :cool:

What post are you referring to, that gives these sales in millions. I must have missed that one.

Post #?

I've lost track to be honest. Way too many posts in the last day or two. There was something by one of the research groups that broke down the money made for both formats and it came out tilted like that. I saw it earlier today but I can't recall which thread, though I thought it was this one.

Quick question.

Did anyone else notice how difficult it was to find new HD DVD releases at these 250 Blockbuster stores during the "trial" period?

I mean, I never saw newly released titles such as "The Matrix", "Children of Men", "Lost in Translation" or many other popular titles that folks would have wanted to rent.

How much do you think this affected those rental sales numbers that Blockbuster is talking about?
Ya, I was gonna say that too - I wanted to rent "flags of our fathers" and the "letters" movies - BB only had the blu-ray copies of them. All the HD DVDs I see are the older releases, and Blu-Ray has all the new releases there

But people see the high definition video in Best Buy, Fry's, Circuit City, etc and think "Wow this TV has a real nice picture! No wonder why it costs $1500" then when they find out they need another half grand of investment they will obviously be a little upset don't you think?

Probably not as upset as someone who goes home with an HD DVD player then realizes that they can't get disney movies for it or pick up movies at the local blockbuster (topic of thread) ;)

Hmm, I wonder if that AICN guy is still happy with his purchase...

If the other numbers that came up earlier in this thread about BD having sales approximating 35 million and HD DVD having sales of about 19 million, then yeah, that 445K difference is a win.

I'm not understanding your reference to "other numbers" (and I'm not digging through 50 pages to find it! ;) )...

... but can you explain to me how one side wins this with less than half a million additional movies sold?

To put that number in context, the direct-to-DVD film Bring It On 3: All or Nothing sold 750k during its first week of release. I doubt that anyone on either side is looking at 445k and thinking that is an insurmountable lead.

How is a number so tiny considered a "win" for BD?

I'm not understanding your reference to "other numbers" (and I'm not digging through 50 pages to find it! ;) )...

... but can you explain to me how one side wins this with less than half a million additional movies sold?

To put that number in context, the direct-to-DVD film Bring It On 3: All or Nothing sold 750k during its first week of release. I doubt that anyone on either side is looking at 445k and thinking that is an insurmountable lead.

How is a number so tiny considered a "win" for BD?

because its all relative.

Also, we have seen what kind of content is driving HD cinema adoption and Universal aone cant come CLOSE to Disney, Sony, BVHE, Lionsgate and Fox so with a lead growing on a weekly basis and no signs of slowing i find it even more difficult to try to argue how HD DVD can turn it around.

HD DVD Exclusive Boxsets which skew up that average

The Complete Matrix Trilogy
The Ultimate Matrix Collection
Smallville: Season 5
Forbidden Planet
Heroes: Season 1
Living Landscape Collection

Blu-Ray Exclusive Boxsets

Rescue Me: The Complete 3rd Season

Boxsets on both formats

Planet Earth
Sopranos: Season 6 Part 1
HD DVD/Blu-Ray Starter Set


HD DVD simply has more exclusive boxsets which skew up the average.

So youre saying that because they have 5 more box sets out of a 200 or so products that the price difference on those alone will make up for the 6 to 14 dollar price average difference?

rdjam, for someone that has in their signature a link that talks about Blu-Ray disc rot which as we know it wasn't that but a manufacturing errorIt is clearly due to a defect or oversight during manufacturing, as is outlined in the thread linked in my sig, however, users have said the disc did not look bad when they got it, but went bad over time.

It rendered some discs unplayable, that had played fine when they were new. So it may not be traditional rot of the metallic layer, but rot under the protective clear coat - but it's still rot.

And it could still happen with other discs - there are 4 titles listed so far for various users.


Target going Blu next week The fud is strong with this one (statement)...

How is a number so tiny considered a "win" for BD?

Right now the 'war' is between blu-ray and HD DVD, you should know that since you seem to really be interested in the success of HD DVD.

Blu-ray is winning with higher software sales. 1.6 million may be a small number compared to DVD, but compared to the 1 million of HD DVD the winning format is clear.

I'm pretty confident that I'm well aware of what is going on in the gaming space.

You may want to recheck your numbers and compare the PS3 sales performance to the 360 and PS2 launch performances. You'll find the PS3 is outperforming both of them, despite being amidst a pretty serious drought of AAA software.

365 days from now, the PS3 will have a larger installed base than the 360 - mark my words.

Panda man, you are way off on you gaming knowledge. You are on here talking about a last gen (current gen at best) technology, while also saying that the machine driving the tech is going to win a next gen battle. I am very confident that I am an authority here on gaming, and the online profile to prove it.


Look up the article Tim Schaffer wrote on the 360, and how he says the most next gen thing about it is how people interact with it. I know, I know you can say Sony has the same thing and with Home and all. But, nobody is using that, and there is a huge install base of XBox live and people using the marketplace. It will take Sony years to achieve this, and MS has already built an online distribution service for HD rivaling iTunes. But, I assume you did not catch that press release either.

I've lost track to be honest. Way too many posts in the last day or two. There was something by one of the research groups that broke down the money made for both formats and it came out tilted like that. I saw it earlier today but I can't recall which thread, though I thought it was this one.

Oh I see - OK - we are talking about sales meaning revenue from disc sales.

OK - makes sense - sell 2X more should equal twice the revenue.

Of course to put it all in prospective. Cars sold, I believe, 10 million copies at an average price of $17 so that totals . . . $170 Million. Is that right? My calculator doesn't have more than 8 places. ;)

Oh yeah I've watched all the top tier titles of both formats including some really bad transfers in both as well. At the moment, Blu-Ray has the edge picture quality-wise and no it isn't hype based on specs.

Fair enough. I respect your opinion and I'm glad you've taken the time to look closely at both formats. I wish everyone would do that.

Bradley

Based on my personal experience you don't need HD DVD or Blu-ray to enjoy movies on an HDTV. The opportunity for adoption of HD DVD or Blu-ray comes from people noticing problems with DVDs that they never saw before because of their new TV.

The biggest issue for me (that stopped me from buying and renting DVD) was that much of the content I was already getting from my cable company looked better than DVD. If I had not adopted BD I would only be getting kids movies and recording stuff on my TiVo S3.

Those problems will hardly concern the average person at this stage of the game. Like my Dad said, "I have floaters in my eyes man! WTF difference am I gonna notice! I just want content period, SD or otherwise."

Anecdotal, but it is sounding awfully common these days. Heck my officemate makes 6 figures, and his priority isn't to go out and replace his entire CE rack, it's to make enough duckets to allow his wife to stay at home. We gotta step back from this war and look at what most people are thinking, and not us.

Probably not as upset as someone who goes home with an HD DVD player then realizes that they can't get disney movies for it or pick up movies at the local blockbuster (topic of thread) ;)

Hmm, I wonder if that AICN guy is still happy with his purchase...

Strange, I just watched The Prestige on HD DVD... oh well

But people see the high definition video in Best Buy, Fry's, Circuit City, etc and think "Wow this TV has a real nice picture! No wonder why it costs $1500" then when they find out they need another half grand of investment they will obviously be a little upset don't you think?

Michael you are so dead-on. People are so simple they're complex. Replacing multiple pieces of equipment is a significant investment for people not on this board.

Just that Blockbuster will carry Blu-ray and that in the rental market they account for 85% of B&M rental locations).Sorry to reply to another on this, but Blockbuster is not 85% of B&M rental locations. Not even close.

So the 85% number does not match anything at all in the various comparisons, including your misguided impression that Blockbuster is 85% of movie rental B&M stores.

It's not difficult to understand,I would have to agree that it is not hard to understand... ...but you seem intent on nitpicking this every couple of pages until it conforms to your views.Sorry if you feel it is nit-picking, but - forgive me for pointing out it is not an accurate title.

It's been this way for a bit and nobody else really seems to have an issue with it, so you may want to tilt at some other windmill for a bit.(a) others have pointed it out, (b) I already said I'd be leaving it be, and am only replying to your continued commentary, in order to correct your above statement.

Its not keeping me out. The format war is what has been keeping me on the sidelines.


So are you saying that if you were given free 2 players, one HD_DVD and one Blu-Ray, you would remain on the sidelines not purchasing any movie titles until the format is decided? Sorry, I don't believe you. It is about price. The concern anyone would have is if they spent until it hurt on a player, and then have the availability of titles dry up. It is all about the price of poker.

Strange, I just watched The Prestige on HD DVD... oh well

I think purchasing imported discs is going to eat into any cost advantage pretty quickly.

I wonder if Blockbuster will carry The Prestige on HD DVD?

Strange, I just watched The Prestige on HD DVD... oh well

If you honestly thing most people will import movies at a premium price you are sorely mistaken. :rolleyes:

So are you saying that if you were given free 2 players, one HD_DVD and one Blu-Ray, you would remain on the sidelines not purchasing any movie titles until the format is decided? Sorry, I don't believe you. It is about price. The concern anyone would have is if they spent until it hurt on a player, and then have the availability of titles dry up. It is all about the price of poker.

Well, $250 players with 5 free movies (~$125 value) isn't getting the majority of HDM consumers into HD DVD. So maybe free players might be a good idea, get on it Toshiba!

Wow, I can't believe how large this thread has gotten since I last posted anything, but I will say it is quite entertaining to watch the fanboys battle.

In the end none of us are going to determine who wins, look at the sales numbers so far, do you really think DVD is going away anytime soon. I love competition and it drives down prices so I hope this goes on a bit longer, but the Blockbuster move is huge even if it is not every store, I am sure there will be at least one store in your area that carries Blu-Ray only.

The thing is until TV prices come down, no one will be buying HD formats. Especially not until everything is standardized. Basically the Electronics industry as a whole has really screwed up here, with lack of compatability and affordability. One year on the market and combined we are discussing 2.5 million videos sold. Some DVD's reach that number in a week or month. Long way to go here and the competition is healthy. If they were not battling, one format would still cost $1000 to get.

Come on, be sensible and stop defending one or the other, either is better than DVD and the sooner everything is finally standardized, the sooner we can move forward. But, until the standards are reached there may as well be a good war for my dollar.

I know 2 people in the middle class bracket that even have an HDTV, my father and myself, we are talking about 100 other people I know at least without even the HDTV, but everyone of them has a DVD player. See the problem here, no gain with HD for the majority of consumers.

If you honestly thing most people will import movies at a premium price you are sorely mistaken. :rolleyes:

His name is MichaelHDDVD, we already know he is sorely mistaken ;)

Ya, I was gonna say that too - I wanted to rent "flags of our fathers" and the "letters" movies - BB only had the blu-ray copies of them. All the HD DVDs I see are the older releases, and Blu-Ray has all the new releases there
I wonder who at BB makes the call as to which new releases to put on the shelves for HD and BD? Someone in merchandising at BB, maybe? Does this fall under the department of that Matthew Smith fellow who broke the news of BB's decision?

Clearly, if BB was only stocking the new releases, or more desirable titles for bluray, and leaving the same-old HD DVD titles on the shelves, then this would have CERTAINLY affected the rental sales numbers.

If the poor availability of HD DVD titles at BB was a result of concious thought, and not just "forgetting" that these releases had come out, then it could make one consider seriously that BBs sales numbers may have been manipulated by someone below board level, to affect the board-level decision based on the numbers.

I wonder who at BB makes the call as to which new releases to put on the shelves for HD and BD? Someone in merchandising at BB, maybe? Does this fall under the department of that Matthew Smith fellow who broke the news of BB's decision?

Clearly, if BB was only stocking the new releases, or more desirable titles for bluray, and leaving the same-old HD DVD titles on the shelves, then this would have CERTAINLY affected the rental sales numbers.

If the poor availability of HD DVD titles at BB was a result of concious thought, and not just "forgetting" that these releases had come out, then it could make one consider seriously that BBs sales numbers may have been manipulated by someone below board level, to affect the board-level decision based on the numbers.

Nope, not convincing enough, make up some more fiction.

I'm not understanding your reference to "other numbers" (and I'm not digging through 50 pages to find it! ;) )...

... but can you explain to me how one side wins this with less than half a million additional movies sold?

To put that number in context, the direct-to-DVD film Bring It On 3: All or Nothing sold 750k during its first week of release. I doubt that anyone on either side is looking at 445k and thinking that is an insurmountable lead.

How is a number so tiny considered a "win" for BD?

If I have in one hand 35 million dollars and I have 19 million in the other hand, which wins?

3. Blockbuster saw a 70% to 30% rental advantage for BD and hence they decided to stop expanding HD DVD. Not many businesses I know of will dump 30% of their customers.This thread is so long that I'm not sure if this was covered, but that was pretty misleading. I'm sure lots of businesses you know of will dump (less than) 30% of 1% of their customers. Grocery stores choose to not carry less popular products all the time. Especially one that is a niche product and in testing was determined to be ess popular than another product in that niche.

--Darin

If I have in one hand 35 million dollars and I have 19 million in the other hand, which wins?
Neither, 'cause I clubbed you in the head with a banana and stole your money. :D

So are you saying that if you were given free 2 players, one HD_DVD and one Blu-Ray, you would remain on the sidelines not purchasing any movie titles until the format is decided? Sorry, I don't believe you. It is about price. The concern anyone would have is if they spent until it hurt on a player, and then have the availability of titles dry up. It is all about the price of poker.

I'd be willing to bet money that the average consumer would spend money on a lesser-quality tech if it was significantly cheaper...let alone if one of two equal techs were cheaper. With that being said, most people don't have the time or inclination to read up on the intricate details of both BD and HD. Heck my wife gets groggy when I start talking about 1080p or AVC etc. etc., LOL!

So my concern -- actually my assertion -- is that money talks and BS walks. BUT -- people listen to what the media say, and if it looks bad for HD, they'll just sit on the sidelines and wait it out for low low prices on BD.

If I have in one hand 35 million dollars and I have 19 million in the other hand, which wins?

Wins?

Wins what?

You mean at the time that those numbers were calculated, BD is winning . . .

I don't see a checkered flag in sight . . .

I don't hear no fat lady singing . . .

The race has yet to be concluded.

You seeing those ratios because br has 10(..?15):1 ratio in players out there.The only way you can get there for the US or NA is to leave out the XBOX360 add-on. I thought people knew a year ago that PS3s should sell less discs per player than standalones, but now people act like they shouldn't and doing that means that something is wrong. I wonder if the same things will be done when Toshiba puts HD DVD drives in those laptops. Those shouldn't sell or rent the same average number of discs per unit either.

--Darin

Neither, 'cause I clubbed you in the head with a banana and stole your money. :D

Now, it's quite simple to defend yourself against a man armed with a banana. First of all you force him to drop the banana; then, second, you eat the banana, thus disarming him. You have now rendered him 'elpless.

His name is MichaelHDDVD, we already know he is sorely mistaken ;)

Imports have always had an honored place with audiophiles. I don't see why it should be any different with videophiles. Its great that the discs are region free.

Originally Posted by ChrisBeveridge
If I have in one hand 35 million dollars and I have 19 million in the other hand, which wins?

How about this . . . .

Left hand - attach rate of BD - less than 1 to 1

Right hand - attach rate of HD DVD - 4 to 1

HD DVD wins!

Imports have always had an honored place with audiophiles. I don't see why it should be any different with videophiles. Its great that the discs are region free.

What is the point of purchasing a cheap player if you spend twice as much for a movie? Doesn't that defeat the entire reason for buying into HD DVD in the first place?

What is the point of purchasing a cheap player if you spend twice as much for a movie? Doesn't that defeat the entire reason for buying into HD DVD in the first place?

Not at all.

The purpose of buying a cheaper HD movie player is to watch your favorite movie in HD. Software cost is ALWAYS going to crush player cost in the long run.

Imports have always had an honored place with audiophiles. I don't see why it should be any different with videophiles. Its great that the discs are region free.

Agreed. I imported a couple of sacds. But do you want hddvd to end up like sacd or do you want mass adoption ?
The masses will not import and what bluray and hddvd are trying to accomplish is mass adoption. Therefore, importing should not be a contributing factor.
Do you really want it to say on the hddvd player box

"YOU CAN GET MOST MOVIES ON HDDVD !"*

*You have to pay a premium to import from foreign countries the movies by the following studios : fox, mgm, lionsgate, sony, disney, buena vista.

Not at all.

The purpose of buying a cheaper HD movie player is to watch your favorite movie in HD. Software cost is ALWAYS going to crush player cost in the long run.


Then why not buy the more expensive player with the more solid future?

Nope, not convincing enough, make up some more fiction.
Not so much made up as wondering about the observation...

It would be nice to know what others have seen around the country, and if this is a pattern, rather than just Miami...

Not at all.

The purpose of buying a cheaper HD movie player is to watch your favorite movie in HD. Software cost is ALWAYS going to crush player cost in the long run.

I'm starting to think that if anything, HD content is driving down the prices of SD content. That is what I'm seeing in stores in the DC metro area at least. A good argument could be made that unless prices come down even further in HD, they will both cease to exist as potential mass adopted techs. HD and BD disks are hideously expensive...and quite frankly, in a way it kind of makes me happy to see these companies sucking wind like they have been. I mean really, why didn't DVD prices come down before this? (We all already know the answers to that question.) So can one really feel any pity for these formats that are overpriced?

OTOH, I want my HD content now!!! :)

Then why not buy the more expensive player with the more solid future?

Because that is not a fact - it is your opinion.

Not at all.

The purpose of buying a cheaper HD movie player is to watch your favorite movie in HD. Software cost is ALWAYS going to crush player cost in the long run.

Then why would anyone choose to buy HD DVD? Blu-ray obviously has more studio support, meaning it is much more likely that titles you want to own will come out on Blu-ray rather than HD DVD. It sounds like you are saying you should purchase a Blu-ray player.

I wonder who at BB makes the call as to which new releases to put on the shelves for HD and BD? Someone in merchandising at BB, maybe? Does this fall under the department of that Matthew Smith fellow who broke the news of BB's decision?

Clearly, if BB was only stocking the new releases, or more desirable titles for bluray, and leaving the same-old HD DVD titles on the shelves, then this would have CERTAINLY affected the rental sales numbers.

If the poor availability of HD DVD titles at BB was a result of concious thought, and not just "forgetting" that these releases had come out, then it could make one consider seriously that BBs sales numbers may have been manipulated by someone below board level, to affect the board-level decision based on the numbers.

More conspiracy theory's from rdjam. At the moment you are just blowing off steam which is fine, however too much will get more people against you if you are trying to convince anyone of anything. In a battle of wits you're only half armed on this issue since you weren't a part in the Blockbuster decision being a Netflix customer during the trial. In a way, you did contribute for thier being a lack of HD-DVD rentals in-store by not participating in the renting from them... ;) As for Blockbuster having a poor selection of HD-DVD titles, in another post even you admit not to having gone in a Blockbuster for quite some time.. So there would be no way for you of knowing what titles they had up until the final decision was made.. I do visit all the Blockbusters around my house and have seen all the best HD-DVD titles there froma month ago. The Matrix came out a few weeks ago and I'm sure this decision was made before Matrix was released so they would have no reason to order any more for the store-side of things.. All this doesn't matter since no-matter what you say or do, it isn't going to change or influence anybody on this forum to do anything and it surely isn't going to change Blockbusters decision. What it will do is make people *sigh* everytime they see your name pop-up the more you complain. :) SO cheers and keep on huffing and puffing if you wish. However this day belongs to Blu-Ray :)

It is interesting to me when people want to discount the impact of 3 million -5.5 million PS3's being sold in the US alone when only, 150,000 HD-DVD and 100,000 Stand alone Blu Ray players have been sold.

Now lets assume I own a PS3 am a hard core gamer and more than likely an occasional movie watcher and purchaser. Even if I only buy a few movies a year I am a potential Blu-Ray customer.

Now if I am Blockbuster and I see that there are potentially 3million-5milion Bu-Ray customers out there and 150,000 HD-DVD customers out there, and there were 81,000 Ps3's sold in may vs. 150,000 Hd-DVD players in a year. Well I can easily do some math here and see that my potential cusomter base for Blu-Ray will continue to grow exponentially larger than my potential base for HD-DVD customers.

I think we can see why anyone would make the jump to Blu-Ray. I love the war, as I have already stated, but if I ran a company this would be a no brainer for me. With hardcore movie watchers at a ratio of 3:2 in favor of HD-DVD and then Ps3 owners in favor (using 3 million) almost 30:1 over HD-DVD, and so potential customers being 30:1 in favor of Blu-Ray, well you get the point.

If you want sources do a quick google, that is what I did, used the first link that popped up for each search.

If I have in one hand 35 million dollars and I have 19 million in the other hand, which wins?I think you meant to ask "who" wins, right? The answer is easy: You do, because it means that you've got $54 million dollars total.

Some here have argued that it's foolish for any studio or rental outlet to refuse that lower sum. Personally, I can appreciate Blockbuster's reasons for choosing a single format (or none at all) for their B&M stores. Shelf space is limited, and you can't dedicate shelf space *every* niche format (which both of these are at this point in time). For online rentals, shelf space is a non-issue, and Blockbuster's stance for their online rentals (i.e., they'll continue to carry both) confirms that.

The only thing I question is why Blockbuster felt the need to make a call, any call, at this stage in the game. The market for either (or both combined) is still miniscule, and Toshiba's recent significant player price differential might have caused a shift in the results they were seeing in their test markets over the next couple of months. If I was their CEO, I probably would have just left the test markets in place, and waited a bit longer before deciding on a single format and rolling it out to more stores.

Now, it's quite simple to defend yourself against a man armed with a banana. First of all you force him to drop the banana; then, second, you eat the banana, thus disarming him. You have now rendered him 'elpless.
Exactly!

Then why would anyone choose to buy HD DVD? Blu-ray obviously has more studio support, meaning it is much more likely that titles you want to own will come out on Blu-ray rather than HD DVD. It sounds like you are saying you should purchase a Blu-ray player.
457 HD DVD & 403 BD available to order or to preorder!
http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29769511

Because that is not a fact - it is your opinion.

Apparently you missed this little bit of news from the other day: http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/biztech/06/18/blockbuster.blu.ray.ap/index.html

Of course some here may say it is good news for HD DVD, I didn't think you were one of them.

Guys, I hate to be the bringer of bad news but High Def Disc will never be a mass adoption format, even if we only had one because:

1. It is an evolutionary step above DVD, which was a revolitionary step above VHS
2. It requires the purchase of an expensive HDTV to see
3. Has mucho competition from:
a. OTA HDTV - free
b. CBL HD - sports and movies and programming in HD
c. SAT HD - same as b.
4. "DVD is good enough" - relates to #1
5. Requires Joe Public to understand HDTV - this so far has failed miserably but may change in the not too distant future - but then again . . .

"majority" - A majority is a subset of a group that is more than half of the entire group

What term should be used?

Well, technically then, the 'majority' of Studios are behind HD DVD when you factor in the Indy's, Smaller European Publishers, and Adult Content.

It is interesting to me when people want to discount the impact of 3 million -5.5 million PS3's being sold in the US alone when only, 150,000 HD-DVD and 100,000 Stand alone Blu Ray players have been sold.

Now lets assume I own a PS3 am a hard core gamer and more than likely an occasional movie watcher and purchaser. Even if I only buy a few movies a year I am a potential Blu-Ray customer.

Now if I am Blockbuster and I see that there are potentially 3million-5milion Bu-Ray customers out there and 150,000 HD-DVD customers out there, and there were 81,000 Ps3's sold in may vs. 150,000 Hd-DVD players in a year. Well I can easily do some math here and see that my potential cusomter base for Blu-Ray will continue to grow exponentially larger than my potential base for HD-DVD customers.

I think we can see why anyone would make the jump to Blu-Ray. I love the war, as I have already stated, but if I ran a company this would be a no brainer for me. With hardcore movie watchers at a ratio of 3:2 in favor of HD-DVD and then Ps3 owners in favor (using 3 million) almost 30:1 over HD-DVD, and so potential customers being 30:1 in favor of Blu-Ray, well you get the point.

If you want sources do a quick google, that is what I did, used the first link that popped up for each search.

Well said

Guys, I hate to be the bringer of bad news but High Def Disc will never be a mass adoption format, even if we only had one because:



Actually, even though I think the CE industry made major missteps in their roll out plan, you see that all the top line TV's are now 1080p, this will trickle down in a few years, and the new AV recievers support the new Codecs for audio, it will happen, maybe just not as quickly as we would all like.

Guys, I hate to be the bringer of bad news but High Def Disc will never be a mass adoption format, even if we only had one because:

1. It is an evolutionary step above DVD, which was a revolitionary step above VHS
2. It requires the purchase of an expensive HDTV to see
3. Has mucho competition from:
a. OTA HDTV - free
b. CBL HD - sports and movies and programming in HD
c. SAT HD - same as b.
4. "DVD is good enough" - relates to #1
5. Requires Joe Public to understand HDTV - this so far has failed miserably but may change in the not too distant future - but then again . . .

There is a very large market available even if it never even gets close to DVD.

I for one just want more content on my player, ending this war helps with that goal.

Well, technically then, the 'majority' of Studios are behind HD DVD when you factor in the Indy's, Smaller European Publishers, and Adult Content.

I was referring to sales but of course if you are looking to support HD DVD you weren't.

Ok, attempt 43 at getting the title right.....

Right now the 'war' is between blu-ray and HD DVD, you should know that since you seem to really be interested in the success of HD DVD.

Blu-ray is winning with higher software sales. 1.6 million may be a small number compared to DVD, but compared to the 1 million of HD DVD the winning format is clear.

I respectfully disagree. I think it's hogwash to imply that a 445k title sales lead implies any sort of "winning". (And I'd be saying the same thing if the numbers were reversed.) There's no clear winner here.

445,000 titles is nothing. Nothing.

Yes, BD is currently in the lead. But that lead is not even remotely as big as we had been lead to believe. I've been seeing daily posts on this forum for 6 months now talking about the "widening gap" between the formats and the "sinking ship" that is HD DVD. Apparently, during those all those days, BD was selling an average of whopping 2400 extra titles a day. That's it. 2400 titles/day over the other format.

I have more than 2400 DVDs in my personal collection for cripe's sake... as do many folks here. These numbers are so trivial as to be virtually meaningless.


No one is winning the war so far. You can bet that none of these companies on either side are dancing in the street with numbers like these -- and none of them are ready to throw in the towel either. It's wide open.

Apparently you missed this little bit of news from the other day: http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/biztech/06/18/blockbuster.blu.ray.ap/index.html

Of course some here may say it is good news for HD DVD, I didn't think you were one of them.

You lost me. That looks like the BB announcement that this monster thread is based on.

You want me, a savy "techie" to accept a newspaper article as proof?

How about the results of a poll MSNBC is running with almost 14,000 people voted:

41% - BD
31% - HD DVD
28% - Undecided

I think I would rather believe almost 14,000 people than 1 :D

Ok, attempt 43 at getting the title right.....


LOL, I am sure that won't work for some as they will want it to be a percent of the total B&M blockbusters. Does it really matter at this point, I mean really, if you have followed the thread or even jump in, I think you will quickly understand what is going on. In fact, if you read this thread, I am sure you have read the news else where. The title changes are getting ridiculous. This is in no way aimed at you as the mod, I just find it funny and wanted to comment on the outlandishness of it all.

You lost me. That looks like the BB announcement that this monster thread is based on.

You want me, a savy "techie" to accept a newspaper article as proof?

How about the results of a poll MSNBC is running with almost 14,000 people voted:

41% - BD
31% - HD DVD
28% - Undecided

I think I would rather believe almost 14,000 people than 1 :D

Well, since according to you the majority of consumers are not interested in HDM, why would it matter what they voted for, unless they are voting with their wallets (which they apparently are).

If we're gonna nitpick on the title to suit preferences, then this is still incorrect as it now seems like there are 250 stores that will be carrying HD-DVD exclusively, as in some type of split, which is incorrect.

Jiffylush:

let me ask you a serious question.

If you went to the Daytona 500 to see the race and your favorite driver is Dale Jr. and after 50 laps Jeff Gordon is in the lead by 3 seconds, Casey Kane is second and Dale Jr. is third and is now 6 seconds behind Gordon . . .

Do you get up and leave yelling, "Gordon won the Dayton 500 and Dale Jr. lost!" Or do you stay in your seat, watch what unfolds and wait for the checkered flag?

STATEMENT: Today 6/19/07 - BD is winning the format war . . . so far.

I would agree to that 100%

But the war isn't over . . . not even close. So I would like to resume this topic on 1/1/08 and let us see what happens. . .

How about this . . . .

Left hand - attach rate of BD - less than 1 to 1

Right hand - attach rate of HD DVD - 4 to 1

HD DVD wins!

Can you cite the date and place you received this information?

In a battle of wits you're only half armed nice ;) on this issue since you weren't a part in the Blockbuster decision being a Netflix customer during the trial.I am a member of Blockbuster, thanks.

As for Blockbuster having a poor selection of HD-DVD titles, in another post even you admit not to having gone in a Blockbuster for quite some time.. So there would be no way for you of knowing Please do link this - since you are stating it to call me untruthful. Either (a) the link, or (b) the apology, should be fothcoming from you.

The Matrix came out a few weeks ago and I'm sure this decision was made before Matrix was released so they would have no reason to order any more for the store-side of things.. Sheer speculation. So you admit they didn't stock The Matrix, yet would like to explain that this is because they had "pre-determined" this decision? So is that "pre-determination why they didn't stock most of the other new releases also?

Let's see what other folks have noticed in Blockbuster stores - have they seen they latest HD DVD releases, or also noticed they have been missing?

POLL: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=863618

I respectfully disagree. I think it's hogwash to imply that a 445k title sales lead implies any sort of "winning". (And I'd be saying the same thing if the numbers were reversed.) There's no clear winner here.

445,000 titles is nothing. Nothing.

Yes, BD is currently in the lead. But that lead is not even remotely as big as we had been lead to believe. I've been seeing daily posts on this forum for 6 months now talking about the "widening gap" between the formats and the "sinking ship" that is HD DVD. Apparently, during those all those days, BD was selling an average of whopping 2400 extra titles a day. That's it. 2400 titles/day over the other format.

I have more than 2400 DVDs in my personal collection for cripe's sake... as do many folks here. These numbers are so trivial as to be virtually meaningless.


No one is winning the war so far. You can bet that none of these companies on either side are dancing in the street with numbers like these -- and none of them are ready to throw in the towel either. It's wide open.


I am confused, is this an arguement for someone to keep supporting HD DVD?

Yes we are in last place, but the winner is only beating us by 50%?!

The point of BBs move (imho) is to convince more people to buy into HDM by giving them confidence that they are making the right choice in the winning format. Maybe it is premature, it is obvious that anyone on the wrong side thinks it is, but it could be very good news for everyone interested in getting more content in HD.

Can you cite the date and place you received this information?

Sure - the talking heads interview with Warner L that was on last night - was it CNN or MSNBC - can't remember which. But I will go get a link for you to watch it incase you missed it. BRB

Damn - my memory stinks - CNBC:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=383736735&play=1

I forgot to mention in my post #1451 that if you are a business and you think that both formats could possiblly die like LaserDisc, it is very comfoting to know that there will still be Ps3's with blu-ray drives out there selling every month and it will be much easier to move a dead Blu-Ray format than a dead HD-DVD format.

I am confused, is this an arguement for someone to keep supporting HD DVD?

Ummm... no. It's an argument that a 445k sales lead means nothing. It's small. It's trivial. I don't know how many other ways to say it.

Support BD or support HD DVD or support both. I don't care. But don't tell me that 445,000 sales wins the war.

457 HD DVD & 403 BD available to order or to preorder!
http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29769511



I believe he was stating STUDIO support....not actual amount of discs published. But with Fox in limboland who knows.....but i think that will iron itself out this summer.

The majority of consumers participating in high-def playback of movies stored on an optical format have chosen Blu-ray over HD DVD. There, that should help appeal to everyones sensibilities.
But isn't it true that the majority of HDM player owners have chosen HD-DVD over BD? Factoring out the gamers.

Jiffylush:

let me ask you a serious question.

If you went to the Daytona 500 to see the race and your favorite driver is Dale Jr. and after 50 laps Jeff Gordon is in the lead by 3 seconds, Casey Kane is second and Dale Jr. is third and is now 6 seconds behind Gordon . . .

Do you get up and leave yelling, "Gordon won the Dayton 500 and Dale Jr. lost!" Or do you stay in your seat, watch what unfolds and wait for the checkered flag?

STATEMENT: Today 6/19/07 - BD is winning the format war . . . so far.

I would agree to that 100%

But the war isn't over . . . not even close. So I would like to resume this topic on 1/1/08 and let us see what happens. . .

I live in NC so obviously I have some knowledge of this thing you call NASCAR ;)

It isn't over, but this is a huge blow to consumer confidence in HD DVD. In the very recent past I have recommended to friends that they get the HD DVD add on for their xbox360s, there is no way I would make that recommendation today.

To say the end of the war isn't anywhere close is a little misleading, all it takes for the war to be over in my mind is Universal finally deciding to grace the millions of PS3 owners with their movies in HD. Every bit of good news for BD and bad news for HD DVD is one step closer to that goal.

It is interesting to me when people want to discount the impact of 3 million -5.5 million PS3's being sold in the US alone when only, 150,000 HD-DVD and 100,000 Stand alone Blu Ray players have been sold.
<snip>

Excellent point, and no doubt the driving factor in Blockbuster's decision. Some food for thought: the AVS forums were once (still are?) dominated by home theater enthusiasts and people who loved movies (of all genres).

What are the possible implications of this format war being won by the PS3 userbase? Are we to believe that the majority of the PS3 userbase consists of people who fit the old AVS forum demographic? Or is it more likely that the majority of these PS3 owners fit into the gamer demographic? If the latter, what are some possible impacts of this as it relates to future Blu-ray content? Will classic titles be pushed to the backburner (way back) in favor of movies that appeal to the gamer demographic? It's also been stated elsewhere that a large number (I have no statistics off the top of my head - anyone?) of PS3 owners do not own HDTV's. How might this impact the quality of future Blu-ray movie transfers?

In short, if PS3 owners decide the victor in this war and HD DVD dies off completely, and if gamers comprise the vast majority of the high-def disc market, what will the future of Blu-ray movies look like?

It is not my intention to throw this out as some sort of fear tactic, but I do think it could make for a worthwhile discussion (more appropriate in its own thread).

If I have in one hand 35 million dollars and I have 19 million in the other hand, which wins?

Well you fail to mention that you are losing >600 million out of your back pocket to make that 35 million happen. (Asuming that each PS3, 3 million produced so far, is sold at a loss of $200)

Sure - the talking heads interview with Warner L that was on last night - was it CNN or MSNBC - can't remember which. But I will go get a link for you to watch it incase you missed it. BRB

Damn - my memory stinks - CNBC:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=383736735&play=1

Here's a link to the group that actually did the study.

STUDY (http://www.forrester.com/Research/Document/Excerpt/0,7211,40503,00.html)

But isn't it true that the majority of HDM player owners have chosen HD-DVD over BD? Factoring out the gamers.

If you are saying the subset of high-def participants that do not own a high-def capable device through a console, yes. Unfortunately, they are an even smaller minority within our already limited participant pool. And, they don't as a group yet contribute to the majority of sales either, which is why Blu-ray leads roughly 2:1 YTD and weekly.

But isn't it true that the majority of HDM player owners have chosen HD-DVD over BD? Factoring out the gamers.

Again 30:1 in favor of potential Blu-Ray customers to Hd-Dvd, see my post 1451

But isn't it true that the majority of HDM player owners have chosen HD-DVD over BD? Factoring out the gamers.

If you factor out the gamers you are factoring out the vast majority of HDM consumers (360 owners as well).

I know HD DVD would like people to forget that the PS3 plays BDs, but it doesn't seem to be stopping PS3 owners from renting and purchasing BD movies.

Well you fail to mention that you are losing >600 million out of your back pocket to make that 35 million happen. (Asuming that each PS3, 3 million produced so far, is sold at a loss of $200)


Like anything in this country....to do something special you need to take a risk.... Sony is doing that. Toshiba is doing the same thing also.

In short, if PS3 owners decide the victor in this war and HD DVD dies off completely, and if gamers comprise the vast majority of the high-def disc market, what will the future of Blu-ray movies look like?

What is it that makes some people think being a 'gamer' and being an audio/videophile are mutually exclusive? Get out the ven diagram folks. Plenty of audio/videophiles in their 20s/30s are gamers as well, having grown up with consoles, and have the disposable income for both.

What do you think the future of Blu-ray movies will look like? It will basically be movies put out on Blu-ray. Get serious here.

It is not my intention to throw this out as some sort of fear tactic, but I do think it could make for a worthwhile discussion (more appropriate in its own thread).

Right - basically if PS3 determines the outcome, the terrorists win... because the PS3 Politburo will demand nothing but action and sci-fi movies from here til the end of time.

Here's a link to the group that actually did the study.

STUDY (http://www.forrester.com/Research/Document/Excerpt/0,7211,40503,00.html)

The study? The study of what? The date of that article is 10/5/06 - over 9 months old.

My info was 6/18/07 - yesterday

Sure - the talking heads interview with Warner L that was on last night - was it CNN or MSNBC - can't remember which. But I will go get a link for you to watch it incase you missed it. BRB

Damn - my memory stinks - CNBC:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=383736735&play=1

Everyone shooting their mouth off in this thread should listen to this interview. Blockbuster's COO certainly doesn't think that "the war is over"

Jiffylush:

let me ask you a serious question.

If you went to the Daytona 500 to see the race and your favorite driver is Dale Jr. and after 50 laps Jeff Gordon is in the lead by 3 seconds, Casey Kane is second and Dale Jr. is third and is now 6 seconds behind Gordon . . .

Do you get up and leave yelling, "Gordon won the Dayton 500 and Dale Jr. lost!" Or do you stay in your seat, watch what unfolds and wait for the checkered flag?

STATEMENT: Today 6/19/07 - BD is winning the format war . . . so far.

I would agree to that 100%

But the war isn't over . . . not even close. So I would like to resume this topic on 1/1/08 and let us see what happens. . .

I think a better analogy would be if Dale Jr. got a flat tire at lap 50 and was down a lap, rather than behind by 6 seconds!

;)

Everyone shooting their mouth off in this thread should listen to this interview. Blockbuster's COO certainly doesn't think that "the war is over"

No, but he does think it wise to roll out Blu-ray exclusively in the 1450 additional stores... so it's hard to see your angle here.

Guys - stop with the FUD!

BD = PS3 and standalone players

HD DVD = 360 AO and standalone players

What? You want to measure who has an HD player in Zip Code 11567?

In short, if PS3 owners decide the victor in this war and HD DVD dies off completely, and if gamers comprise the vast majority of the high-def disc market, what will the future of Blu-ray movies look like?

It is not my intention to throw this out as some sort of fear tactic, but I do think it could make for a worthwhile discussion (more appropriate in its own thread).

All great questions. I for one am a Ps3 owner, let the attacks begin now that I am out, and more of a gamer. But I also owned a Ps2 and used it as my DVD player the same as I will use my Ps3 as a Blu-Ray player. Now I don't buy a lot of DVD's and only own 1 Blu-Ray disc, because $30 dollars for a movie is a bit much, let the software price drop over the next few months. But if 3 million Ps3 owners buy one disc a month well we can see where this will lead. I realize this is a bit off topic, but my point is that even the hardcore Hd-Dvd supporters if they are truly home theater guys will make the switch to Blu-Ray if it wins, thus increasing their consumer base and improving the quality of Blu-Ray. Are you going to tell me that if you really love movies you are not going to want to see them at 1080p because your format lost,PLEASE. When and if Blu-Ray wins the consumer base will grow as people will no longer be scared to jump in.

The study? The study of what? The date of that article is 10/5/06 - over 9 months old.

My info was 6/18/07 - yesterday

The analyst group that did the statistics beleives BD will win. I am not adding anythign to it. It is what it is. I can't watch the CNBC thing from work though but I will deff. check it out later..

In other news....another domino falls, Starz(anchor bay) has decided to go Blu. Not sure how much they sell but I love their crap!

I think a better analogy would be if Dale Jr. got a flat tire at lap 50 and was down a lap, rather than behind by 6 seconds!

;)

Great ! Accepted!

Is the race over yet?

You mean Gordon is guaranteed to win?

You mean Gordon can't blow an engine, or hit the wall on lap 450?

I paid my money - I think I will stick around and see how the race ends.

Ok, attempt 43 at getting the title right.....

And, IMO, it's now the most biased and least accurate portrayal of the actual announcement so far.

"1700 Blockbuster B&M stores to carry Blu-ray! 250 to carry HD DVD....."

If the first half of the sentence "to carry" means a decision for the future, but in the second half "to carry" means will continue in the present state. There's so much grammatical confusion in there that you have no idea what's going on.

Here's my attempt to boil down the news to two sentences and remain reasonably accurate, but it's too long for a thread title:

Blockbuster announces 1450 B&M stores will carry Blu-ray as their exclusive high-definition format. 250 B&M stores and Total Access will continue to carry Blu-ray and HD DVD.

Great ! Accepted!

Is the race over yet?

You mean Gordon is guaranteed to win?

I don't think so.

I am not actually a fan, but since everyone I know says it: 'F*ck Gordon'

Guys - stop with the FUD!

BD = PS3 and standalone players

HD DVD = 360 AO and standalone players

What? You want to measure who has an HD player in Zip Code 11567?

hehehe....guess what gamers watch movies too! How can we cut out the gamers like some of you have suggested. I'd say that guys who buy games are more likely to buy movies! That is a nice slice of the pie right there!

If you factor out the gamers you are factoring out the vast majority of HDM consumers (360 owners as well).

I know HD DVD would like people to forget that the PS3 plays BDs, but it doesn't seem to be stopping PS3 owners from renting and purchasing BD movies.

PS3 consumers have been conditioned to movie watching for years. The PSP is a prime example. IMO, there is little doubt that the PS3 installed base primarily watches movies. Good for BD, bad for the PS3 in the long run.

No, but he does think it wise to roll out Blu-ray exclusively in the 1450 additional stores... so it's hard to see your angle here.

My "angle" is that people here at AVS are ready to call this thing based on Blockbuster's decision when even Blockbuster says that it's far too soon to call it.

hehehe....guess what gamers watch movies too! How can we cut out the gamers like some of you have suggested. I'd say that guys who buy games are more likely to buy movies! That is a nice slice of the pie right there!

Don't forget, when the PS3 has AAA titles we are all going to stop buying movies.
:)

My "angle" is that people here at AVS are ready to call this thing based on Blockbuster's decision when even Blockbuster says that it's far too soon to call it.

He is being diplomatic, it is called not sh*tting where you eat.

He still wants people who own HD DVD players to use his service today and in the future. Even if it is only a minority of people renting high def media.

He is being diplomatic, it is called not sh*tting where you eat.

He still wants people who own HD DVD players to use his service today and in the future. Even if it is only a minority of people renting high def media.

You apparently did not watch the same piece that I did.

The analyst group that did the statistics beleives BD will win. I am not adding anythign to it. It is what it is. I can't watch the CNBC thing from work though but I will deff. check it out later..

You can't expect me to accept an article or study done 9 moths ago - you are reaching :D

In other news....another domino falls, Starz(anchor bay) has decided to go Blu. Not sure how much they sell but I love their crap!

Link?

I just dont get why some people here are so format defiant. I mean if BD lost I have no problem with HD and vice versa. I do prefer BD and buy the BDs when I can over HD. But I wouldn't mind if HD-DVD won. Other people seem so hostile over this....That's the thing i find hard to grasp about this...

I don't know many businesses that forego 30% of their revenue based on "this point of time". Sounds sort of stupid, really

Say you own a video store with a dedicated shelf each for BD and hd dvd. Lets say each shelf holds 10 movies. If every day, the BD shelf makes $70, and the hd dvd shelf only makes $30, do you think it makes sense to keep the hd dvd shelf or dump it and put another BD shelf in its place?

Great ! Accepted!

Is the race over yet?

You mean Gordon is guaranteed to win?

You mean Gordon can't blow an engine, or hit the wall on lap 450?

I paid my money - I think I will stick around and see how the race ends.

Hell no! I never count Jr. out! Especially since he will be driving for Hendrick at the next Daytona 500! :D

Don't forget, when the PS3 has AAA titles we are all going to stop buying movies.
:)


EXACTLY! I think my wife would love the fact that I set around and play games all day (LOL). Consider that a good number of Ps3 owners have a decent income, are in their 20's and quite possibly married (IMO). I know this is me and the cool thing is I can get my wife to watch Blu-Ray, she loves movies.

The average gamer is no longer the average gamer, unless of course they live in mom's basement.

Link?

http://www.homemediaretailing.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?sec_id=2&&article_ID=10786

Excellent point, and no doubt the driving factor in Blockbuster's decision. Some food for thought: the AVS forums were once (still are?) dominated by home theater enthusiasts and people loved movies (of all genres).

What are the possible implications of this format war being won by the PS3 userbase? Are we to believe that the majority of the PS3 userbase consists of people who fit the old AVS forum demographic? Or is it more likely that the majority of these PS3 owners fit into the gamer demographic? If the latter, what are some possible impacts of this as it relates to future Blu-ray content? Will classic titles be pushed to the backburner (way back) in favor of movies that appeal to the gamer demographic? It's also been stated elsewhere that a large number (I have no statistics off the top of my head - anyone?) of PS3 owners do not own HDTV's. How might this impact the quality of future Blu-ray movie transfers?

In short, if PS3 owners decide the victor in this war and HD DVD dies off completely, and if gamers comprise the vast majority of the high-def disc market, what will the future of Blu-ray movies look like?

It is not my intention to throw this out as some sort of fear tactic, but I do think it could make for a worthwhile discussion (more appropriate in its own thread).


You just have to look at the sales from some of the best selling br titles to get the right picture.

Assume 80000 titles sold for such a title to 100000 stand alone br player owners and 2million PS3 owners. Assuming that most HT buffs go with stand alones it's save to say that the PS3 contribution to sales is small in comparison.

It is however sigificant enough to give br the edge in disk sales.

nice ;) I am a member of Blockbuster, thanks.

Please do link this - since you are stating it to call me untruthful. Either (a) the link, or (b) the apology, should be fothcoming from you.

Sheer speculation. So you admit they didn't stock The Matrix, yet would like to explain that this is because they had "pre-determined" this decision? So is that "pre-determination why they didn't stock most of the other new releases also?

Let's see what other folks have noticed in Blockbuster stores - have they seen they latest HD DVD releases, or also noticed they have been missing?

POLL: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=863618

Sorry, it was Iggster who hadn't visited a Blockbuster in months. I got you two confused ;) The halfwit comment was actually thrown out last night at dinner to a 12 year old girl by her father after she was throwing a temper tantrum while eating dinner. She wouldn't quit banging on the plate with the fork while eating her noodles..(that only reminded me of you after reading the last twenty or so posts by you ;) ). As for my observations, each Blockbuster had manager's that make the decisions as to what stock their stores order and so forth so it will be different around the country, however now most stores will be Blu only which will be very damaging to HD-DVD in the long run..

You can't expect me to accept an article or study done 9 moths ago - you are reaching :D



Link?


It is apparently the same study referenced in the CNBC piece....so if that data isn't valid I don't understand how the attach rate you quoted me could be valid....as they came from the same study...

Their top story today... (http://www.homemediaretailing.com/)

This double dose doesn't appear good for HD-DVD...

Well, time to freshen up on your sources then - BD50 is the norm now for new releases.


I didn't ask for the last few releases, I asked about 2007. :p


The movie or the disc?


Both


The disc is a BD50, the space used is 45GB.
[/quote]

Thanks! How big is the actual movie though?

It is apparently the same study referenced in the CNBC piece....so if that data isn't valid I don't understand how the attach rate you quoted me could be valid....as they came from the same study...

Their top story today... (http://www.homemediaretailing.com/)

This double dose doesn't appear good for HD-DVD...

From that article...

“It sends a strong message to consumers,” said Bishop. “It really starts to clarify the [format] issue to the consumer.”

He said Blu-ray is experiencing a 70% advantage over HD DVD at retail — a percentage he believes is exponentially higher at rental due to the proliferation of video game rentals for PlayStation 3.

And, IMO, it's now the most biased and least accurate portrayal of the actual announcement so far.

"1700 Blockbuster B&M stores to carry Blu-ray! 250 to carry HD DVD....."

If the first half of the sentence "to carry" means a decision for the future, but in the second half "to carry" means will continue in the present state. There's so much grammatical confusion in there that you have no idea what's going on.

I disagree. It's as clear as it's been so far. 1700 will carry Blu-ray, 250 will carry HD DVD. I'm not trying to address what happened in the past, which is covered in the article and subsequent press release.

My "angle" is that people here at AVS are ready to call this thing based on Blockbuster's decision when even Blockbuster says that it's far too soon to call it.

But people here at AVS are always calling things based on a given days news - and it's always the same people on either side. It's not the news itself that people here can't interpret, it's the degree to which any given individual has a warped sense of things.

Certainly the Blockbuster situation doesn't end anything. At the same time, in the context of the prior moves made thus far during this 'war,' it is nevertheless significant.

Thanks! How big is the actual movie though?

If it looks great who gives a crap....This is equivalent to yanking the tape out of VHS and measuring it....if it looks good...WHO CARES! I say this in regards to HD-DVD also

Sorry, it was Iggster who hadn't visited a Blockbuster in months. I got you two confused ;) The halfwit comment was actually thrown out last night at dinner to a 12 year old girl by her father after she was throwing a temper tantrum while eating dinner. She wouldn't quit banging on the plate with the fork while eating her noodles..(that only reminded me of you after reading the last twenty or so posts by you ;) ). As for my observations, each Blockbuster had manager's that make the decisions as to what stock their stores order and so forth so it will be different around the country, however now most stores will be Blu only which will be very damaging to HD-DVD in the long run..

Actually decisions on ordering movies and stock levels for rentals comes directly from corporate. Not sure where you goto that info from.... but then again, mis-information seems to be the name of the game around here as of late.

I disagree. It's as clear as it's been so far. 1700 will carry Blu-ray, 250 will carry HD DVD. I'm not trying to address what happened in the past, which is covered in the article and subsequent press release.

I think the issue is that 1700 will carry blu-ray and 250 will continue to carry both.

But then I think you should just go with the title of the press release.

(you can leave it, it really doesn't matter in the long run)

But people here at AVS are always calling things based on a given days news - and it's always the same people on either side. It's not the news itself that people here can't interpret, it's the degree to which any given individual has a warped sense of things.

Certainly the Blockbuster situation doesn't end anything. At the same time, in the context of the prior moves made thus far during this 'war,' it is nevertheless significant.

If BD wins then I am fine with that. What I am not fine with is people saying that myself and other HD DVD supporters should go and dump our HD DVD decks for BD decks that cost 2X as much, deliver half the features and aren't even compatible with the final BD specification.

and there has been a lot of that said to that effect here in the past 48 hrs.

The title should read

1700 Blockbuster and growing B&M stores to carry Blu-ray! 250 to carry both HD DVD and Blu-Ray

All great questions. I for one am a Ps3 owner, let the attacks begin now that I am out, and more of a gamer. But I also owned a Ps2 and used it as my DVD player the same as I will use my Ps3 as a Blu-Ray player. Now I don't buy a lot of DVD's and only own 1 Blu-Ray disc, because $30 dollars for a movie is a bit much, let the software price drop over the next few months. But if 3 million Ps3 owners buy one disc a month well we can see where this will lead. I realize this is a bit off topic, but my point is that even the hardcore Hd-Dvd supporters if they are truly home theater guys will make the switch to Blu-Ray if it wins, thus increasing their consumer base and improving the quality of Blu-Ray. Are you going to tell me that if you really love movies you are not going to want to see them at 1080p because your format lost,PLEASE. When and if Blu-Ray wins the consumer base will grow as people will no longer be scared to jump in.
1. Not only have more HDM player owners bought HD-DVD players, it looks like their attach rate is much better than BD player owners.

2. What will happen is the PS3 price will become relatively higher and higher as player prices drop, and will become less of an option for those who want to watch movies. At the same time the PS3 demographic will become younger and they will have less interest in movies. Particularly as the PS3 game selection becomes larger. The growth of BD disk sales will not continue as now, with the growth of PS3.

I'll likely buy BD when player prices drop.

I didn't ask for the last few releases, I asked about 2007. :p

Well, what does "norm" mean? I interpret it to mean the trend, and the trend is currently BD50. I can't say whether or not the 'norm' going back to Jan 07 was BD50, but I can say that the majority of titles released this year have been dual-layer: take that for what you will.

There's a thread around here that tracks how many releases have been single vs dual-layer this year, but I'm not going searching around for it right now; hopefully someone's got it at hand and will provide the link.


Thanks! How big is the actual movie though?

The video file is 34GB. The audio, Java, and whatever else make up the rest.

1. Not only have more HDM player owners bought HD-DVD players, it looks like their attach rate is much better than BD player owners.


Makes you wonder why there is a sales deficit doesn't it?

Oh wait, that is because you are trying to marginalize the biggest factor so far in this war.

Actually decisions on ordering movies and stock levels for rentals comes directly from corporate. Not sure where you goto that info from.... but then again, mis-information seems to be the name of the game around here as of late.


Not according to the Blockbuster manager's I know personally ;) .... They have/had a say as to wether they wanted to participate in having Blu-Ray titles in their stores or not... Corporate has decided now which stores will not carry HD-DVD anymore...

Makes you wonder why there is a sales deficit doesn't it?

Oh wait, that is because you are trying to marginalize the biggest factor so far in this war.

So true. Wayne, what is your spin agenda here? It is what it is - if you want to denigrate PS3 owners as 'gamers,' even though some of the most well-respected members and reviewers on this site are PS3 fans on the BD side of things, so be it. Just then admit also that 'gamers' are running things right now and stop trying to paint a picture that somehow has HD DVD in some illusory stronger position.

Not according to the Blockbuster manager's I know personally ;) .... They have/had a say as to wether they wanted to participate in having Blu-Ray titles in their stores or not... Corporate has decided now which stores will not carry HD-DVD anymore...

If you are telling me that your local store manager makes decisions on what and how many copies of new release rental titles he is going to carry in his store to satisfy demand, I'd like to talk to him because things must have changed dramatically since I worked there when I was in college.

Blockbuster has decided that some of the pilot stores carrying HD-DVD will no longer carry HD DVD? I don't see that in the Blockbuster press release or in the COO interview I linked earlier in this thread.

Guys, I hate to be the bringer of bad news but High Def Disc will never be a mass adoption format, even if we only had one because:

1. It is an evolutionary step above DVD, which was a revolitionary step above VHS
2. It requires the purchase of an expensive HDTV to see
3. Has mucho competition from:
a. OTA HDTV - free
b. CBL HD - sports and movies and programming in HD
c. SAT HD - same as b.
4. "DVD is good enough" - relates to #1
5. Requires Joe Public to understand HDTV - this so far has failed miserably but may change in the not too distant future - but then again . . .

And this is why I still think something like HVD would be more revolutionary...ahh well, here's to hoping content is still released for one of both of the formats over the next few years.

So true. Wayne, what is your spin agenda here? It is what it is - if you want to denigrate PS3 owners as 'gamers,' even though some of the most well-respected members and reviewers on this site are PS3 fans on the BD side of things, so be it. Just then admit also that 'gamers' are running things right now and stop trying to paint a picture that somehow has HD DVD in some illusory stronger position.
Recognize that the best/cheapest BD player out there is an expensive game machine. That shouldn't last. If it does BD is in trouble.

Right - basically if PS3 determines the outcome, the terrorists win... because the PS3 Politburo will demand nothing but action and sci-fi movies from here til the end of time.

My fear is that as sarcastic as your remark is, it has enough truth in it to scare the pants off of me .


Art

Don't forget, when the PS3 has AAA titles we are all going to stop buying movies.
:)
Ummm no we aren't. We can still do both you know.

Recognize that the best/cheapest BD player out there is an expensive game machine. That shouldn't last. If it does BD is in trouble.

The cheapest BD player is the new Sony BDP-S300.

Guys, I hate to be the bringer of bad news but High Def Disc will never be a mass adoption format, even if we only had one because:

1. It is an evolutionary step above DVD, which was a revolitionary step above VHS
2. It requires the purchase of an expensive HDTV to see
3. Has mucho competition from:
a. OTA HDTV - free
b. CBL HD - sports and movies and programming in HD
c. SAT HD - same as b.
4. "DVD is good enough" - relates to #1
5. Requires Joe Public to understand HDTV - this so far has failed miserably but may change in the not too distant future - but then again . . .

Most of those arguements were used against DVD in its early years.

1. I agree that DVD was a revolutionary step from VHS. But I also feel that the move of media from SD to HD is a revolution too. The just from 360x240 to 640x480 is actually smaller than the jump from 720x480 to 1980x1080. Right now we are looking at a small time window and what we see looks like evolution but when we look back at similar events things can gain a different perspective.

2. Quality 32" HDTV's can be had for under $600. I can recall a time when it was difficult to get a 27" SDTV for under $400. Compared to Color SDTV's we are still in the infancy of HDTV as a viewing device. Right now everyone is looking at the big HDTV's and seeing the (relatively) big prices, but on an inch for inch basis HD is not that much more expensive than SD was a little over 10 years ago.

3. Competition from other HD sources will actually be a good thing. So after watching the nightly news in HD on your bigscreen you reach over and pop in the latest blockbuster release in SD? Yeah right! I think that anyone can attest that once you see video in HD you prefer to see video in HD from that point forward.

4. VHS was "good enough" for many for a long time too. During the DVD "Revolution" everyone didn't magically recieve a DVD player for christmas in 1998 it took how many years before DVD sales/rentals outpaced VHS.

5. John Q only needs to realize that he likes HD pictures better than SD ones to decide he wants HD media. Making the choice as to which HD format is holding back alot of John Q's. Much of that is because of the fog of war as both sides pump out so much contradictory information that it is better to wait.

I just dont get why some people here are so format defiant. I mean if BD lost I have no problem with HD and vice versa. I do prefer BD and buy the BDs when I can over HD. But I wouldn't mind if HD-DVD won. Other people seem so hostile over this....That's the thing i find hard to grasp about this...

Simple ... BDs are vastly superior technology. Its all about storage capacity and data transfer rates. BD = 50 GB, 54 Mbit/s while HD-DVD = 30 GB, 36 Mbit/s. Plus blu-ray's hypothetical limit is 200 GB compared to 45 GB for HD-DVD. Its (almost) like trying to compare a DVD and an SVCD. More storage = able to put more features and video at higher bitrates on a disc. I'm also waiting for the prices to come down on burners for computers, where again its all about the storage capacity and transfer speed.

I don't care if the discs cost $0.50 more for the first year before the price equals out (which it seems to have done now) to pay for the cost of retooling assembly lines if I get a vastly superior product.

Of course now I can't wait for HVDs -- 4 TB of data on a disc!!! :D

Great news from Blockbuster for the BD camp. This may indeed end up being the first domino to fall! This will definitely have a big effect because I know that I only own 1 BD but I rent them from Netflix all the time. I'm sure a lot of other PS3 owners are like that as well -- not a lot of movies they'll go out and rebuy but anything new they want to rent, they'll rent on BD.

Recognize that the best/cheapest BD player out there is an expensive game machine. That shouldn't last. If it does BD is in trouble.

Well, it is no longer the cheapest - the new Sony standalone is on the scene (and reportedly selling very well). But I think it will be the best for years to come - why wouldn't it? It's technologically superior to any other BD or HD DVD player. You call it a 'game machine,' but what it is is an 'entertainment device.'

1. Not only have more HDM player owners bought HD-DVD players, it looks like their attach rate is much better than BD player owners.

2. What will happen is the PS3 price will become relatively higher and higher as player prices drop, and will become less of an option for those who want to watch movies. At the same time the PS3 demographic will become younger and they will have less interest in movies. Particularly as the PS3 game selection becomes larger. The growth of BD disk sales will not continue as now, with the growth of PS3.

I'll likely buy BD when player prices drop.

Point 1 counterpoint: with PS3 in the picture 30:1 in favor of Blu-Ray players in home vs. Hd-DVD. 81,000 Ps3's sold last month in US alone, vs. 150,000 Hd-DVD's over their entire life span on the market. You can see how greatly the gap will actually continue to widen in favor of Blu-Ray players in the home. Again, if I am a business, I see the potential for roughly one million PS's sold by the end of the year, uping the number to 4-5 million in homes (low estimate) vs. lets be generous here, 1 million HD-DVD's in homes given HD-DVD's own estimates. You still have Blu-Ray in favor 5-1 over HD-DVD, nnot including a sure to be increase in Blu-Ray stand alone sales as well. This doesn't even account for the already rumored and mentioned Ps'3 price drop at Christmas. (Yes, the head of Sony mentioned the price drop).

Point 2 counterpoint: Partially answered above, Price drop. And as for the younger demographic, have you looked at the future game title releases for Ps3, I assume not unless you mean younger as in 14 and up and I would wager that 14 year olds watch movies, just like they drive the Music industry. And most 14 year olds I know want the newest and coolest thing, this includes HD Movies. That said, I think the Wii has already established itself as the younger console of chioce.

Ummm no we aren't. We can still do both you know.


(this was a joke)

Wins?

Wins what?

You mean at the time that those numbers were calculated, BD is winning . . .

I don't see a checkered flag in sight . . .

I don't hear no fat lady singing . . .

The race has yet to be concluded.

I got the impression from reading your posts (even though you are pro-HD-DVD anti-blu-ray) due to the BB move that the war is over. One example from you:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart "Huge impact. Game over."

You seemed to have defended that quite heavily. I'm curious if you are changing your tune again?

I just dont get why some people here are so format defiant. I mean if BD lost I have no problem with HD and vice versa. I do prefer BD and buy the BDs when I can over HD. But I wouldn't mind if HD-DVD won. Other people seem so hostile over this....That's the thing i find hard to grasp about this...


LOL , i know.. i show this thread to some of my friends and they just roll their eyes at some of the fanboys here.

Say you own a video store with a dedicated shelf each for BD and hd dvd. Lets say each shelf holds 10 movies. If every day, the BD shelf makes $70, and the hd dvd shelf only makes $30, do you think it makes sense to keep the hd dvd shelf or dump it and put another BD shelf in its place?

Given the niche HD is now you still make $70 . (It should have been over $200 according to the infamous fox graph).

However in the long term a stronger retail presence is what will win the format war.

HD DVD camp should establish far more headway into retail. It's vital for survival.

From that article...

“It sends a strong message to consumers,” said Bishop. “It really starts to clarify the [format] issue to the consumer.”

He said Blu-ray is experiencing a 70% advantage over HD DVD at retail — a percentage he believes is exponentially higher at rental due to the proliferation of video game rentals for PlayStation 3.

Exponentially higher? Puh-lease!

The funniest thing is this: The story he is commenting on has rental data in it from the nation's largest movie rental chain. And guess what? It's not exponentially higher at all!

Oh, and you forgot to mention that Target is going blu and Best Buy too! :rolleyes:

I just dont get why some people here are so format defiant. I mean if BD lost I have no problem with HD and vice versa. I do prefer BD and buy the BDs when I can over HD. But I wouldn't mind if HD-DVD won. Other people seem so hostile over this....That's the thing i find hard to grasp about this...

TBH, I think it has to do with Sony heading up the BDA. If it were any other company (well, just about), I think you'd find a lot less animosity for BD. It's pretty much indisputable even for Sony fans, that SOE has effed up a lot of games (SWG, EQ2, the ongoing VG mess, etc.), a lot of people have problems with their customer service (me being one of them), and their gaming consoles have been notoriously unreliable (much like my Mustang, they are great pieces of equipment but highly unreliable). One could also make the argument that they are anti-consumer, but that is more opinion and conjecture and not fact.

These are all sticking points with me...I feel that their eff-ups stand out more than their achievements. With that being said, the PS3 has been a great BD player for me. I am hoping it is more reliable than my PS and PS2 were. And I am also willing to put animosity aside for now, and see how things pan out.

If you are telling me that your local store manager makes decisions on what and how many copies of new release rental titles he is going to carry in his store to satisfy demand, I'd like to talk to him because things must have changed dramatically since I worked there when I was in college.

Blockbuster has decided that some of the pilot stores carrying HD-DVD will no longer carry HD DVD? I don't see that in the Blockbuster press release or in the COO interview I linked earlier in this thread.

I'm not talking about DVD's here, I am talking about Blu-Ray's and HD-DVD's.. Since this was a special pilot program, Corporate was working with the Manager's directly and figuring out how many titles they needed and so forth and which format was renting at a higher pace along with what titles.. You have to understand is that the Blockbusters with the heaviest traffic were chosen for this pilot test and Manager's were in communication with Corporate about how things were going. Furthermore Manager's nowadays are able to order more titles of a particular title if enough requests come in for a particular title.....

My fear is that as sarcastic as your remark is, it has enough truth in it to scare the pants off of me .


Art

It's like this - if BD were to 'win,' then one of two things will happen:

Either mass adoption starts to ramp up, in which case obviously studios will cater to the usual film-viewing demographics and things will be normal as the gaming public becomes less and less a component of the whole...

or

The PS3 user base will continue to determine what films are a success and which aren't. In a world of eventual $99 and under BD players, were this to transpire it would mean basically that high-def was never meant to extend beyond the realm of the technophiles to begin with, and there you go.

Personally - and I hope you'll agree - I think the second scenario highly unlikely.

As it stands now though, I assure you that being older than the average 'gamer' you might envision, the PS3 set encompasses a wide range of socially well-adjusted, married or dating folk that have a taste in movies that even if limited, extends at least to 'quality.' And I'll note of course that HD DVD itself has half its userbase composed of 360 add-on owners, and they seem normal enough, yeah? ;)

I should have included "at the current rate". The majority of people who bought a PS3 are gamers... I don't understand why many here think that their main interest is some BD movies. Many gamers attribute the Blu-Ray movie functionality in the PS3 as not their main interest... but as a bonus. As a huge PS gamer I wholeheartedly disagree. I plan to buy (at the end of the month) my PS3 for equal gaming/Blu-Ray watching purposes... and actually, as of current, I am more excited for blu-ray than gaming. Once FF13, GTA4, MGS5 etc... are released I'll be much more excited for the gaming, but the vast PS2 library is keeping me busy right now. The assumption that the gaming community has a relatively small interest in high definition films is false, at least for me and for the people I hang out with. I'm a 19 year old college student, and other students I know who have both an HDTV and a PS3 (which is more than you might think, including 2 people in my dorm) watch Blu-Ray movies at *least* as much as they game. Group nights playing with R:FOM are great, but grabbing a pizza and watching Mission: Impossible 3 in 1080P is just as appealing ;)