I posted this in another thread..and I ask you now..why would any of us want this war to stop?? I for one am loving the relatively low prices on hardware and software for both formats but me thinks if 1 or the other was the only format we would be paying a lot more for hardware and software. I mean remeber when the Denon and Pioneer hi end dud players were 3k?? Now you can get that same or better dvd performance in the ax2 or the pioneer Bd player as well as a high def player?? Think about it, no matter what way this goes it would be better for all of us to support BOTH formats as this will increase competition and lower prices!!!

You don't really think that if 1 of thew formats were to win today that prices would actually come down???lol thats a good one..... :D

Heh. Funny thing is I agree. Good prices on software + players, not to mention something fun to debate about! It will be heaven at the point when all studios go neutral! :)

Well for me unfortunately I just don't find Blu-Ray appealing at all. Too much DRM and the format just screams that it was created to cater to the manufacturers/studios instead of the consumer who is paying for it! Players higher priced with less features and discs with potential DRM up to wazoo.

If HD DVD does not stick around (very doubtful at this point), I will likely pass on HD optical for HD downloads instead.

dvd has been around for how many years?

dvd has been around for how many years?

10

dvd has been around for how many years?

And DIVX has been around for how many years?

We are aiming for mass adoption, we are hoping to get all new movies and as many catalogue titles as we can get released asap.

Having one new format that people can adopt along with their HDTV is going to help with that goal.

sidenote - If not for the war players would be a lot more expensive and releases would probably be of a lesser quality.

The war has done its job, and the winning product is cheaper and better because of it. Now lets move forward.

I agree... let them co-exist. They only way to make the companies involved in creating this war in the first place pay is for this war to continue so that niether side gets the huge chunk of the pie that has been driving their greed.

Give me a good value, feature packed, dual format player, and everything will look purple to me. :)

Well for me unfortunately I just don't find Blu-Ray appealing at all. Too much DRM and the format just screams that it was created to cater to the manufacturers/studios instead of the consumer who is paying for it! Players higher priced with less features and discs with potential DRM up to wazoo.

If HD DVD does not stick around (very doubtful at this point), I will likely pass on HD optical for HD downloads instead.


Downloads very likely laden with even more DRM and inferior quality, to boot.

Yeah, that's the smart bet. ;) Tell me the studios aren't being catered to by downloads that limit the number of viewings and become something you don't physically own, but have access to every now and then.

BD's only extra DRM is BD+ and that's to block unauthorized copying. I can't say I blame them for that. If you're not a pirate, it won't affect you. Are you a digital pirate?

Remember, both Blu-ray and HD DVD supposedly support managed copy, though NEITHER have done anything with it.

To the original poster:

The format war will drive hardware prices down to the point where the hardware manufacturers will not make any money on these devices. If they don't have any money to make in the market, then they will pull out. Right now, they want to use these new formats to push new receivers and new televisions because they want 1080p and lossless audio codecs to be the new driving force to more expensive hardware.

If these players go too cheap, then this will become a losing proposition and they will stop making players altogether. That's why most people who have their feet grounded in reality realize that cheaper players does not always equate to the best thing for consumers in the longterm. Just because it's cheaper in the short term, if it kills any hope of having players for the future, what's the point?

I want prices to stay at a healthy place for these companies so they will tough it out until disc sales can mature. I understand that the BDA CE companies and Toshiba (for it's the only HD DVD CE company) are not doing this for charity. They want to make money. Let them make money so they will continue to support a high def disc format.

Last thing I want is for them to pull out in favor of a download scheme that is a lot less risky in terms of success or failure. That's why the format war needs to end. To guarantee returns on the investments of these companies. Once sales pick up, prices will drop on their own from internal competition within BD sales. Certainly, the current BD pricepoint was inevitable when the PS3 was announced with the 499-599 pricepoint.

HD DVD had little to do with BD's pricedrops in players. PS3 did. It was the PS3's release that caused an immediate and sizable drop in the cost of the Samsung player of the time. It was the success of the PS3 as a BD player that drove the new player by Sony to $500. And almost assuredly the reason the new Panny player is at a $600 pricepoint, identical to the PS3.

The format war did nothing for you there. Just the PS3. Disc prices are what they were always going to be with the customary discounts by Amazon and other online retailres falling in line with what they would have been anyway. Just as they were the same last year with HD DVD before BD came along.

In short, the format war has only caused me to have to buy a $600 player in addition to a $500 player that I paid more for a month before its big drops.

And the next time I see someone say, "Well, I won't buy a PS3 for $600, I want BD to be sub-$300 like the HD-A2 I bought before I go BD," I'm going to laugh. Laugh.

Because when you pay for that $300 HD-A2 and that theoretical $300 Bd player, then you wind up with $600, which is what you WOULD have paid for the PS3 already back in November if Toshiba had not instigated this format war over royalties they got last round.

So the format war will make you wind up waiting on movies you would already have bought if there had been no format war and you'll wind up paying the same for two players what you would have had int he PS3 last year for the same amount.

Meh.

The BDA companies are all in competition with each other. Prices are already pretty low and will keep falling regardless.

The war needs to end now or both formats will end up niche market.

I want HD on optical and I want to be able to get it at the local movie shop for reasonable prices. That'll never happen if it isn't mass market and it'll never be mass market amidst a format war.

I understand what you're saying about competition but I can buy a $9 DVD player at Wal-mart... and DVD was a unified format with no "war". Lack of competition certainly didn't keep those prices from falling.
Utter rubbish. It took DVD quite some time for the price to fall into the mass adoption range. They did what the BDA want(ed) to do this time - keep prices up to re-coup development costs. Without HD-DVD the players would be $1,000 for a year or more, $750 @ 18 months, and $500 @ the 2 year mark = not good for the consumer.

And why would you possibly think the BDA CE's would compete with each other? They would all just keep prices relatively the same, a no-brainer without competition.

HD DVD had little to do with BD's pricedrops in players. PS3 did. It was the PS3's release that caused an immediate and sizable drop in the cost of the Samsung player of the time. It was the success of the PS3 as a BD player that drove the new player by Sony to $500. And almost assuredly the reason the new Panny player is at a $600 pricepoint, identical to the PS3.
Boss....de-plane......de-plane. Sure, the Edsel of the game world did it all.

Let's all have a pity party for the CE, how about a donation website? :rolleyes: Afterall it's only right for them to ream the consumer.

It would seem they're still making DVD players, even @ cheap prices - they haven't pulled out of that market why again?

Because when you pay for that $300 HD-A2 and that theoretical $300 Bd player, then you wind up with $600, which is what you WOULD have paid for the PS3 already back in November if Toshiba had not instigated this format war over royalties they got last round.

Yeah, it's all Toshiba's fault, Sony didn't care about royalties at all. :rolleyes:
Don't make it sound like it's one party's fault. Both sides are to blame equally.

Utter rubbish. It took DVD quite some time for the price to fall into the mass adoption range. They did what the BDA want(ed) to do this time - keep prices up to re-coup development costs. Without HD-DVD the players would be $1,000 for a year or more, $750 @ 18 months, and $500 @ the 2 year mark = not good for the consumer.

And why would you possibly think the BDA CE's would compete with each other? They would all just keep prices relatively the same, a no-brainer without competition.


Boss....de-plane......de-plane. Sure, the Edsel of the game world did it all.

Let's all have a pity party for the CE, how about a donation website? :rolleyes: Afterall it's only right for them to ream the consumer.

It would seem they're still making DVD players, even @ cheap prices - they haven't pulled out of that market why again?

Exactly!!

We dont want a winner but the consumer...competition is the only way we win. Look at the auto industry...if it weren't for competition then gm would still make a cadillac where the bumper falls off. With this war we would be forced to accept any transfer the studios put out and if we didnt like it we would just have to wait and re buy same title as the new extended directors special ultimate edition or whatever. :)

Downloads very likely laden with even more DRM and inferior quality, to boot.

Yes, but I will only be paying a few bucks for a download versus $20-$30 for a BD. I'm simply not going to pay that type of premium when it means potentially more intrusive DRM and less featured players for more money! When I shell out that kind of cash per release, I want to have as little DRM as possible with as much flexibility/openness as can be. For $5, though, I can deal with more DRM.

Are you a digital pirate?Acording to the MPAA, yes, I am a digital pirate, because I make personall copies of DVD's I own.

BD+....do you really think that's going to stop Fair Use enforcement DRM being hacked? If HD-DVD goes away, BR just becomes a more popular target for the digital Robin Hood's. :D

The BDA companies are all in competition with each other. Prices are already pretty low and will keep falling regardless.

The war needs to end now or both formats will end up niche market.

I want HD on optical and I want to be able to get it at the local movie shop for reasonable prices. That'll never happen if it isn't mass market and it'll never be mass market amidst a format war.

I understand what you're saying about competition but I can buy a $9 DVD player at Wal-mart... and DVD was a unified format with no "war". Lack of competition certainly didn't keep those prices from falling.

Well said! I want this format war over yesterday!

I posted this in another thread..and I ask you now..why would any of us want this war to stop?? I for one am loving the relatively low prices on hardware and software for both formats but me thinks if 1 or the other was the only format we would be paying a lot more for hardware and software. I mean remeber when the Denon and Pioneer hi end dud players were 3k?? Now you can get that same or better dvd performance in the ax2 or the pioneer Bd player as well as a high def player?? Think about it, no matter what way this goes it would be better for all of us to support BOTH formats as this will increase competition and lower prices!!!

You don't really think that if 1 of thew formats were to win today that prices would actually come down???lol thats a good one..... :D

I guess it depends onw hat you want for the next 10-15 years. If you want a stable HD optical format that will challenge and perhaps replace DVD, then what you wrote is total rubish. Sure, we all love lower prices, but hardware prices are being forced down unaturally (and unprofitably) by Toshiba because its format cannot compete any other way. If hardware manufacturers and studios lose interest in a format because it isn't making money, then we all lose.

Also, let's no pretend like there won't be competition when once format wins. Look at the huge improvements in DVD players and DVD encoding the last ten years. Once a format wins (looking like Blu-ray is the way to bet), Sony will be competing against Pioneer and Panasonic, and the studios will be competing against one another. Just like with VHS and DVD, this will be plenty of competition to improve products and drive down prices, and it will happen according to normal market practices, rather than desperate attempts to cut profits to stave off the inevitable.

Edit: I see many of these points were already made; sorry to repeat. Still, this pernicious myth that we need format competition instead of the normal competition that we always have is bizarre and needs to stop being repeated. It is NOT good if prices fall to nothing just to have both formats die!!!

I was at a party last night were HD disks were a heated topic. One person there became the first person I know to actually buy a player (without my buying it for them).

Everyone expressed the view that they were eager to buy a machine once the format war is resolved. They even knew the model numbers, studios supporting, etc. It simply came down to one thing: when it is safe to make an investment without the format war intervening.

I had just read about the BB decision and revealed this. There was great interest in this development.

I suppose the format war is in some sense fun, and I will miss the diversion caused by what is really a pretty small issue in terms of human affairs.

The prices have been brought down this quickly because of the HD DVD/Blu Ray competition. That's the only reason not because of any internal Blu Ray competition. Now at some point there may well be a winner but I hope that doesn't come until the prices are in the $100ish category for either format. That's when the average consumer with a high def tv will spring for a player and thus increase the base of users. Until then let the war continue.

I'd like the "format war" to end so the smaller companies might actually start releasing on HD discs.

As much as I hate the format war in the beginning, I've ended up being a dual format supporter.

I think the problem now (with all this "gloom & doom" news about HD-DVD) is what about the upcoming dual releases. Should I get it in HD-DVD still or concentrate more on BD? On dual releases, I usually get HD-DVD.

I guess it depends onw hat you want for the next 10-15 years. If you want a stable HD optical format that will challenge and perhaps replace DVD, then what you wrote is total rubish. Sure, we all love lower prices, but hardware prices are being forced down unaturally (and unprofitably) by Toshiba because its format cannot compete any other way. If hardware manufacturers and studios lose interest in a format because it isn't making money, then we all lose.

Also, let's no pretend like there won't be competition when once format wins. Look at the huge improvements in DVD players and DVD encoding the last ten years. Once a format wins (looking like Blu-ray is the way to bet), Sony will be competing against Pioneer and Panasonic, and the studios will be competing against one another. Just like with VHS and DVD, this will be plenty of competition to improve products and drive down prices, and it will happen according to normal market practices, rather than desperate attempts to cut profits to stave off the inevitable.

Edit: I see many of these points were already made by Deez; sorry to repeat. Still, this pernicious myth that we need format competition instead of the normal competition that we always have is bizarre and needs to stop being repeated. It is NOT good if prices fall to nothing just to have both formats die!!!


This post is totally highlarious. You are blinded by what ifs not by open to history in the marketplace. ;)

Yes, but I will only be paying a few bucks for a download versus $20-$30 for a BD. I'm simply not going to pay that type of premium when it means potentially more intrusive DRM and less featured players for more money! When I shell out that kind of cash per release, I want to have as little DRM as possible with as much flexibility/openness as can be. For $5, though, I can deal with more DRM.
i will have to yes but you because hd and bd titles will go down in price,son or later also has anybody noticed sddvds have gone up in price lately!

I think price of players are low enough for the average joe with an HDTV to jump in. With the cost of an HDTV, $300(HDDVD)-$500(BD) is nothing for an HD player.

The quick and dirty solution would be for all studios to port all movies to both format and let the people decide and format war should be over before Christmas. To be fair, port the movies equal codec, VC-1 or AVC (mpeg2 just isnt good) and the sound lossless for both.

With the war over, Christmas will be less stressful this year, so my vote is for the war to be over.

If we only have only one format, there would still be SD, there would still be the same number of suppliers, there would still be cheap chinese players (which we still are waiting for), there would still be high end ultra priced players (which we don't really have yet).

One format would not mean less competition. Toshiba could still make Blu-ray players and undercut Sony. Better features for less money would still be the goal of each company, just as it is now with DVD.

It is not like this is just Sony versus Toshiba and when Toshiba loses Sony can charge what they want.

Two formats may have lowered the prices a little faster than they would have otherwise, but it will keep mass adoption rates low and the steady downward spiral in prices that accompanies mass adoption will be slower in coming. Today's prices are artificially low, not the result of cheaper manufacturing and mass adoption allowing economies of scale, and will likely slow the true ability to lower prices due to market forces.

There are plenty of movie studios, plenty of hardware makers and plenty of consumers. One format will not limit competition, it will likely widen it as more companies will be willing to jump into Blu-ray as it becomes adopted by the masses.

I get so frustrated reading how the format war is this great competitive force and so great for the consumer. This is SO SHORT SIGHTED!!! One format will breed a faster adoption rate, faster adoption by all players (manufacturers and consumers), and lowering of prices and increasing of features at real sustainable levels.

End the format war now!

Sisko ..I'm constantly amazed at how you have a penchant for being consistently wrong.

Sisko ..I'm constantly amazed at how you have a penchant for being consistently wrong.
Like the pot calling the kettle black

This post is totally highlarious. You are blinded by what ifs not by open to history in the marketplace. ;)

In English please? Since my entire post was about trends we've seen in the marketplace historically, I'm not at all sure what you are saying, except that you found it "highlarious".

Let me ask you a question, since you "love the format war": What good is getting players for both formats for $200 a piece if both formats die? That's $400 wasted rather than buying a $500 machine for a format that survives for 10-15 years. The format war is not letting anyone make any money, and it's driving consumers away; mass adoption will never occur until one format wins, regardless of price. The format war is killing HD optical media, which is, of course, what some HD DVD companies want.

Perhaps optical media should be killed. Isn't that really what we're fighting over? A silly plastic disc.

Microsoft doesn't have to join the charade here. They see hardware players as dinosaurs that are rapidly approaching extinction. Apple does too

Remove the hardware and you remove hardware licensing fees. All that's left is software licensing and Microsoft got RICH off of licensing software. Today the hardware is necessary...tomorrow it becomes a flaky dongle that isn't needed.

In 5 years the next level of codecs will hit (possibly wavelet or h.265) and with another %50 in datarate we'll see 1080p movies at today's 720p sizes. With faster Broadband at home perhaps it's time to put optical formats to rest.

I've had 1/100th the amount of problems with digital music files than I have had with CD/DVD. The writing is pretty much on the wall.

Puhleeeze


Toshiba followed the correct process in which AOD was chosen as the DVD successor which is why it has "DVD" in its name and Blu-ray doesn't. The instigator here was the formation of the BDA and that's FACT.

So the format war will make you wind up waiting on movies you would already have bought if there had been no format war and you'll wind up paying the same for two players what you would have had int he PS3 last year for the same amount.

Or....we could have not had Sony do YET ANOTHER END AROUND and create a competing format and we'd have had cheaper players and more media.

Like I said...penchant for RDF FUD and being wrong.

Personally,(IMHO)I think sony is trying to save face over the beta deal.

I wonder what we'll all talk about in a year...

At least, I mean what will we all talk about besides how nice Jurassic Park looks on Blu-ray disc?

;)

I'll be complaining about the grain on my Blu-Ray of Miami Vice!

Perhaps optical media should be killed. Isn't that really what we're fighting over? A silly plastic disc.

Microsoft doesn't have to join the charade here. They see hardware players as dinosaurs that are rapidly approaching extinction. Apple does too

Remove the hardware and you remove hardware licensing fees. All that's left is software licensing and Microsoft got RICH off of licensing software. Today the hardware is necessary...tomorrow it becomes a flaky dongle that isn't needed.

In 5 years the next level of codecs will hit (possibly wavelet or h.265) and with another %50 in datarate we'll see 1080p movies at today's 720p sizes. With faster Broadband at home perhaps it's time to put optical formats to rest.

I've had 1/100th the amount of problems with digital music files than I have had with CD/DVD. The writing is pretty much on the wall.

there is only one problem there: companies that own content as well as consumers don't want optical to go away. ps3 is the only device that can bridge ethernet and hdmi so in theory could support copyright protected downloads but unless consumer has the same rights with it as he/she does with physical media this is a non-starter. i can back up dvd's and play them on any device that i own for my personal use. compare that to iTunes drm.

there is only one problem there: companies that own content as well as consumers don't want optical to go away. ps3 is the only device that can bridge ethernet and hdmi so in theory could support copyright protected downloads but unless consumer has the same rights with it as he/she does with physical media this is a non-starter. i can back up dvd's and play them on any device that i own for my personal use. compare that to iTunes drm.

Every time you backup your DVD you're breading the law. The DMCA stipulates that any ursurpation of copy protection is a violation. The ability to time shift is being fought by studios the abilty to space shift is being fought by studios and all the while consumers seem oblivious to this and care more about whether Paris Hilton is incarcerated this week or not.

Hmmm that reminds me it's time to go rent Mike Judges Idiocracy. At least some people get it.

Every time you backup your DVD you're breading the law. The DMCA stipulates that any ursurpation of copy protection is a violation.

No, people who provide software for doing it are breaking the law. The US Supreme Court has at every opportunity defended the right of private individuals to do what they will with physical items they own, including making backups. Since there will always be people who supply methods to back up physical media (regardless of legality), there will always be a legal way to for individuals to back up physical media. These rights are not tested on non-physical media, and frankly I am in no hurry to do so. MSFT (or Apple, or anyone else who wants to ditch physical media) can take their virtual media and shove it up their virtual you-know-whats...

I want an end to this stupid war so a viable physical media can replace DVD, and since HD DVD apparently cannot (or willnot) win, I want it to lose as soon as possible.

Every time you backup your DVD you're breading the law.

you are mistaken.

No, people who provide software for doing it are breaking the law. The US Supreme Court has at every opportunity defended the right of private individuals to do what they will with physical items they own, including making backups. Since there will always be people who supply methods to back up physical media (regardless of legality), there will always be a legal way to for individuals to back up physical media. These rights are not tested on non-physical media, and frankly I am in no hurry to do so. MSFT (or Apple, or anyone else who wants to ditch physical media) can take their virtual media and shove it up their virtual you-know-whats...

I want an end to this stupid war so a viable physical media can replace DVD, and since HD DVD apparently cannot (or willnot) win, I want it to lose as soon as possible.

Isn't that tantamount to a murderer proclaiming "I didn't kill her....the hammer to her head killed her"

Your comments are interesting. I choose to think of the lesser of two evils being downloads. I'm in no hurry to buy hardware with mandatory componetry that "watches" everything I do and has the power to modify my system. Sony put a rootkit on unsuspecting computers not MSFT or APPL.

Desmond212

Let me clarify. You may backup your DVD if it contains no copy protection. The minute you go around any copy protection you are indeed in violation of the DMCA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA

criminalizes the act of circumventing an access control, even when there is no infringement of copyright itself.

http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/unintended_consequences.php

The DMCA Jeopardizes Fair Use.
By banning all acts of circumvention, and all technologies and tools that can be used for circumvention, the DMCA grants to copyright owners the power to unilaterally eliminate the public's fair use rights. Already, the movie industry's use of encryption on DVDs has curtailed consumers' ability to make legitimate, personal-use copies of movies they have purchased.

So do stop backing up your DVD or I shall have you brought up on charges ;)

Wait...
we can make backup copies of our dvds...?!?!?!?















;)

Wait...
we can make backup copies of our dvds...?!?!?!?















;)

HAHA!!


WE'VE LANDED ON THE MOON!

I'll be complaining about the grain on my Blu-Ray of Miami Vice!

Heh. Funniest thing I think I've ever seen you post, JackBee.

Say... would you by chance have a brother named Jack "A"? ;)

Bradley

HD DVD had little to do with BD's pricedrops in players. PS3 did. It was the PS3's release that caused an immediate and sizable drop in the cost of the Samsung player of the time. It was the success of the PS3 as a BD player that drove the new player by Sony to $500. And almost assuredly the reason the new Panny player is at a $600 pricepoint, identical to the PS3.

The format war did nothing for you there. Just the PS3. Disc prices are what they were always going to be with the customary discounts by Amazon and other online retailres falling in line with what they would have been anyway. Just as they were the same last year with HD DVD before BD came along.

Is this just your opinion or do you have some actual evidence and/or factual data to back up your assertions?

What amazes me is that so many people, especially on the BD side of the fence, fail to acknowledge that it is the format-exclusive studios that have turned this thing from good old fashioned healthy competition into an all out "war". If studios published titles in both HD formats, the "war" would be a moot point. Feel free to disagree, but that's the way I see it.

Bradley

Is this just your opinion or do you have some actual evidence and/or factual data to back up your assertions?

What amazes me is that so many people, especially on the BD side of the fence, fail to acknowledge that it is the format-exclusive studios that have turned this thing from good old fashioned healthy competition into an all out "war". If studios published titles in both HD formats, the "war" would be a moot point. Feel free to disagree, but that's the way I see it.

Bradley


Do you have any evidence that the BD producers aren't competing amongst themselves? I don't see any reactionary $300 players. I see a $500 player following the removal of the $500 PS3 from the marketplace to fill the gap of a $500 BD player by Sony. I see a $600 Panny player matching the PS3's current cost with a few movies to sweeten the deal toward the Panny with superior audio codec support.

I just don't see any BD hardware response to HD DVD's pricepoints. They don't seem too desperate to get down to the closeout/fire sale pricepoints that Toshiba was hitting with the A2. If Sony really wanted to get down to that level, they could.

So again, without evidence to the contrary, I'd say the BD companies are competing against one another as the pricepoints match up. Why would the BDA worry about HD DVD when disc sales don't support the better sales Toshiba's reporting?

How much more evidence is there?

Fact: Disc prices are what were on HD DVD when it was alone in the market on amazon.com before the release of any BD products.
Opinion: These are the same movie companies. If HD DVD didn't have any competition for the first few months there, what incentive did they have to put the discs on sale? None. They just did it and that was the pricepoint. MSRP is one thing. What it's intended to sell for is another. Both formats had pricepoints within dollars of one another. HD DVD trumpeted higher disc prices for BD's a long time and a lot of Red-dites really thought this would be the case, but it's not.

Fact: PS3 was destined to be $500-$600 before Toshiba even began trumpeting its pricepoint.
Opinion: This always destined all BD players to drop in price once the PS3 arrived. Which is exactly what happened. Why give credit to HD DVD? Just because it's there? That doesn't explain why Samsung waited until the PS3 was about to show up before lowering the cost on its player from $1k to $800, then lower. Is it a coincidence that the new Panasonic player costs the same as the PS3? Is it a coincidence that Sony killed the PS3 20gig (most popular with those wanting a cheap BD player) right before introducing the new Sony player for $500? That's a lot of coincidences.

I'm using common sense. Something not exactly in abundance around here at times.

Discs prices were never trumpted by anyone with a clue. Media pricing has always been dicatated by the studio and the relative value of the content.

I can go to Discmakers and have 1000 CDs pressed for $.47 a disc. That doesn't mean I'm going to sell you the disc for $1. There are prevailing MSRP pricing and I never for once thought that any lower pressing costs would be passed through to the consumer. Why would it? A HD movie is MSRP $28.95 for many catalog regardless of what the actual disc cost to manufacture.

Saying that HD DVD pricing hasn't had a causal effect on Blu-ray is foolhardy. You will prove this statement and I will never disprove it because we simply don't have access to the relevant data. There has been little competition between the BDA vendors. Today HD DVD is $299 and the cheapest Blu-ray is $499.

The BDA seems to be fighting the lower pricing pressures by simply trying to rope in and maintain studio/content exclusivity. So rather than give consumers a direct deal they'll keep the pricing higher on BD players and incentivize those who remain "loyal" to the platform.

So in a way it's like funding terrorism.

btp you're totally correct. This battle boondoggle is being foisted solely by the studios. It seems the lower the character of the studio the more they entrench with Blu-ray (talking about you Disney and Fox)

Do you have any evidence that the BD producers aren't competing amongst themselves? I don't see any reactionary $300 players. I see a $500 player following the removal of the $500 PS3 from the marketplace to fill the gap of a $500 BD player by Sony. I see a $600 Panny player matching the PS3's current cost with a few movies to sweeten the deal toward the Panny with superior audio codec support.

No, and I didn't make that claim. There's simply no hard or conclusive evidence to support your conclusions. In my view, "common sense" would dictate Sony is well aware of what Toshiba is doing and responded appropriately with a price drop on the S300, putting it within spitting distance of the A20 and just below the XA2 in price. Is that the ONLY factor at play? Probably not. But to completely ignore that dynamic and pretend Toshiba and HD DVD is irrelevant does not seem like common sense to me. You're entitled to your opinion of course.

Bradley

I just wish all the fanboys would wise up to the fact that this war benefits the consumer because if you are gonna try and tell me if 1 of these companies had the market to themselves that they would just lower prices on hardware and software for the benefit of us the consumer you my friend no nothing about business models for large corporations. It is basically street corner drug dealer mentality. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that I am just saying...... :)

Another thing is we would be probably paying the same amount of money for 1 player that we can spend on 2 right now or maybe more if you look at the history of DVD players. My dream scenario is constant price drops until all the studios are neutral and software is 10-15 a disc. Another thing that is funny as well is the argument that if we had 1 format we could have everything on Hi Def today which is totally ridiculous. It is going to take awhile to get all of the titles to HD so this is a non factor even if studios embraced 1 format. The studios want the format that is hard to copy to win which at this point both can be backed up. I know BD+ to the rescue but come on do you really want more DRM?? The studios don't want you to copy anything managed or not because if you make 1 copy and give it to a friend they just sold you a movie for %50 off!! That is not good business. :)

Isn't that tantamount to a murderer proclaiming "I didn't kill her....the hammer to her head killed her"

It would be tantamount to that if the Supreme Court had ruled that the hammer was the one to blame, but in this case the law squarely blames the murderer.

Your comments are interesting. I choose to think of the lesser of two evils being downloads. I'm in no hurry to buy hardware with mandatory componetry that "watches" everything I do and has the power to modify my system. Sony put a rootkit on unsuspecting computers not MSFT or APPL.

Without trying to be insulting, I think your judgement is clouded by your opinion of HD DVD, Blu-ray, and Sony. First of all, no one can check my Panny BD-10 (which is not even hooked up to the internet) plays, no matter what. I would rather have physical media that I don't use on my computer (my LCD is only 24" anyways!) and cannot be subject to DIVX-based ownership issues then some download which studios could force to only be available on a rental basis.

Let me clarify. You may backup your DVD if it contains no copy protection. The minute you go around any copy protection you are indeed in violation of the DMCA.

Sorry, § 1201 of the DMCA explicitly provides exemptions "...if such persons are, or are likely to be in the succeeding 3-year period, adversely affected by virtue of such prohibition in their ability to make noninfringing uses of that particular class of works under this title...".

They had to provide this loophole, because otherwise the DMCA would have been instantly rendered unconstitutional via previous Supreme Court rulings, and the ACLU would have jumped all over it. Instead, they hoped that this would convince people not to test "which" provisions would be defensible in court. I have not the slightest concern, as legal precedent is very clear here; even lawyers for large coporations aren't idiots, so I doubt the DMCA will ever be used as an excuse to go after a person for making a personal backup, since they would lose and the DMCA would be dramatically weakened in it's scope. It will, of course, be used to go after companies like DVD-X, or individuals who provide backup software, but people will do that anyway.

DRMed downloads, otoh, can be set up on a rental-only basis, in which case you do not own the material, and would have no exemption un the DMCA or the constitution. That way lies madness...

I just wish all the fanboys would wise up to the fact that this war benefits the consumer because if you are gonna try and tell me if 1 of these companies had the market to themselves that they would just lower prices on hardware and software for the benefit of us the consumer you my friend no nothing about business models for large corporations.

Listen kettle, you're the black one ;) . Seriously, prices would not be this low yet if there were one format, but prices would be coming down because, and please pay attention to this point, THERE WOULD NOT BE JUST ONE COMPANY IF THERE WAS ONE FORMAT. Panasonic, Sony, LG, pioneer, and Samsung would still be competing for market share, and prices would be coming down. So maybe it would take until January '08 before you could afford a player, but prices would come down, just like they did with DVD players (and software) without a format war.

Another thing is we would be probably paying the same amount of money for 1 player that we can spend on 2 right now or maybe more if you look at the history of DVD players.

Is that a different point? It appears to be the same as your first point, albeit perhaps a tad more specific with the numbers.

My dream scenario is constant price drops until all the studios are neutral and software is 10-15 a disc.

At which point there is no money to be made, so the studios abandon HD optical media? Sounds like a winning strategy to me... :rolleyes:


Another thing that is funny as well is the argument that if we had 1 format we could have everything on Hi Def today which is totally ridiculous. It is going to take awhile to get all of the titles to HD so this is a non factor even if studios embraced 1 format.

You just made my point! It WILL take a while to get all of the titles on an HD format, which is WHY we need one format to be profitable enough and win enough market penetration that is lasts for 10-15 years, which will never happen with a format war going on. If this war continues much longer the profit incentive to make HD players and disks will dry up long before most movies on available, which means we all lose.

The studios want the format that is hard to copy to win which at this point both can be backed up. I know BD+ to the rescue but come on do you really want more DRM??

See my post above; you have well-established legal protections for what you do with item you own; if we end up with virtual rentals, you will not have those protections. So yes, I am thrilled by the idea of more DRM on my optical disk, if it keeps studios from switching to downloads.

The studios don't want you to copy anything managed or not because if you make 1 copy and give it to a friend they just sold you a movie for %50 off!! That is not good business. :)

The studios have no choice. If they provide managed copy, they can make a legal case that you have no need to "back up" your disk and can then go after people who crack their DRM. If they don't, it's clearly reasonable and within legal precident to let consumers back up their privately owned movies. They will provide managed copy to ensure the survival of the DCMA.

Listen kettle, you're the black one . Seriously, prices would not be this low yet if there were one format, but prices would be coming down because, and please pay attention to this point, THERE WOULD NOT BE JUST ONE COMPANY IF THERE WAS ONE FORMAT. Panasonic, Sony, LG, pioneer, and Samsung would still be competing for market share, and prices would be coming down. So maybe it would take until January '08 before you could afford a player, but prices would come down, just like they did with DVD players (and software) without a format war.
Complete & utter rubbish. Apparently you either weren't a consumer during DVD's launch or you know little of how businesses are run............or both.

You don't think members of a group talk to each other? Hold meetings to determine pricing strategys? They would all line up their products within a few dollars & use features to seperate themselves - same as they did with DVD & the tape formats before.

January '08? With only one format Jan '08 would might mean a "fire sale" of $750 a unit....maybe depending on how sales were going. Figure late '09 or even holiday 2010 before the price hit anywhere near mass adoption levels. Use the DVD you speak of it was nearly 24 months or more before it hit $500 - $750. Still away off from the mass adoption level of less then $250. DVD passed VHS in sales & rentals when? What was that 2 years ago.............1997 - 2005 = ? Seven years to market dominance.

^^^ We disagree on what freedom is but you are wrong if you think it "HELPS" you to have a monopoly. I dont back anything up anymore because i dont have the time. You are wrong about what the studios will do in regards to managed copy this is your opinion only unless you work for a major player in this? The studios do not want any copying period.

Complete & utter rubbish. Apparently you either weren't a consumer during DVD's launch or you know little of how businesses are run............or both.

Really. Then why can you buy $30 DVD players at Walmart? Was this the result of a format war, or regualr competition amongst CE companies? How can you seriously sit there when prices dropped 2 orders of magnitude in a decade on hardware and pretend like that wasn't due to normal competition within a format? If you are saying that prices are dropping faster because of the format war, then we agree (and you should reread my post), but they are dropping at a rate that is not susaintable profit-wise, and that is not good for the consumer.


You don't think members of a group talk to each other? Hold meetings to determine pricing strategys? They would all line up their products within a few dollars & use features to seperate themselves - same as they did with DVD & the tape formats before.

Of course they would. And they would drop prices as the cost of manufacturing came down, progressively reducing their profit margins as market penetration allows them to make it up with sales volume.

Use the DVD you speak of it was nearly 24 months or more before it hit $500 - $750. Still away off from the mass adoption level of less then $250. DVD passed VHS in sales & rentals when? What was that 2 years ago.............1997 - 2005 = ? Seven years to market dominance.

Right...but both VHS and DVD lasted long enough to be a viable format and get all of our favorite movies on. Are you saying it's better to spend $300 for a player on a format that won't be viable? Or are you saying that hardware companies and the studios will keep supporting the formats out of the goodness of their own hearts? What was that you said about "you know little of how businesses are run"??? You may want to look in the mirror.

^^^ We disagree on what freedom is but you are wrong if you think it "HELPS" you to have a monopoly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly

Read about it. When several companies are producing competing products (e.g. the companies making Blu-ray players) it is not a monopoly, period.

You are wrong about what the studios will do in regards to managed copy this is your opinion only unless you work for a major player in this? The studios do not want any copying period.

I have an interest in constitutional law, and do know several people in the computer industry concerned with DRM issues (none of them involved with optical media...I am not an insider). Regardless, the law is clear; either studios will provide MMC, or they will have to suffer private individuals breaking their DRM and backing them up. Which do you think they'll choose?

Really. Then why can you buy $30 DVD players at Walmart? Was this the result of a format war, or regualr competition amongst CE companies? How can you seriously sit there when prices dropped 2 orders of magnitude in a decade on hardware and pretend like that wasn't due to normal competition within a format? If you are saying that prices are dropping faster because of the format war, then we agree (and you should reread my post), but they are dropping at a rate that is not susaintable profit-wise, and that is not good for the consumer.
A decade? LMAO - by that time it will all be over & done with, downloads would be the norm...............just what Microsoft wants.

I disagree, it's sustainable. If it wasn't how exactly are they making money on DVDs? Even the players. They all sell players - they're all non-profit? I seriously doubt it. Yes, to an extent it's economies of scale....but I'd wager sales aren't really increasing. More replacement purchases then new entries. I think that the faster the prices drop the better. There's limited window & if we ever expect to see HD media mainstream it needs to happen faster than DVD or tape. And that to me IS good for the consumer. Low priced players & media - a player in every home just like DVD.

Right...but both VHS and DVD lasted long enough to be a viable format and get all of our favorite movies on. Are you saying it's better to spend $300 for a player on a format that won't be viable? Or are you saying that hardware companies and the studios will keep supporting the formats out of the goodness of their own hearts? What was that you said about "you know little of how businesses are run"??? You may want to look in the mirror.
Except I don't believe they have the luxury of a decade or more. I'm not certain the CE's realize it, but the window isn't that large. Faster internet speeds, better compression algorithms, acceptance of "good enough".............

Of course they would. And they would drop prices as the cost of manufacturing came down, progressively reducing their profit margins as market penetration allows them to make it up with sales volume.
Not convinced, given the relatively inexpensive components in HD players? Would seem that they could reduce the price fairly fast = more market penetration = more sales & royalties = $$$.

Regardless, the law is clear; either studios will provide MMC, or they will have to suffer private individuals breaking their DRM and backing them up. Which do you think they'll choose?
Sticky wicket that one. They tried MMC once, public told them to shove it up their arses. I'd bet they'd do it again. And that's a US law - the internet is global. How's that ban on online gambling working? The "do not call" list is working out just fine....too damn bad they just moved out of reach. Laws work fine when you're talking about physical media......against bits? Good luck with that.

But really that's one of the issues. The studio heads are like Congress - just to damn stupid to accept reality & get with the program. They figure they can rule what they can't even begin to comprehend. The easiest way to fight piracy is to make it so cheap that it's not worthwhile. Hell, I don't even bother backing up those 3 for $20 DVDs - not worth the time.

A decade? LMAO - by that time it will all be over & done with, downloads would be the norm...............just what Microsoft wants.

Hmm...I think I'm seeing where we are talking past one another; you realize that if one format makes significant market penetration (which will take 3-5 years) there is a good chance that downloads of full-res movies will not catch on for quite some time, right?

I disagree, it's sustainable. If it wasn't how exactly are they making money on DVDs? Even the players. They all sell players - they're all non-profit? I seriously doubt it. Yes, to an extent it's economies of scale....but I'd wager sales aren't really increasing.

Fwaah?? You realize (cause you said it yourself a few posts up) that it took several years until DVD players dropped to mainstream prices? The problem isn't that you can't eventually make a profitable $200 HD player, it's that you can't do it this fast. High margin/low volume sales to early adopters usually ameliorate R&D, with the true profits coming as sales volume ramps up; eventually the market starts to hit a saturation point, but prices still come down (while sales remain stable or slowly decrease) due to lowered manufacturing costs (e.g. eliminating components and migrating others to SoC solutions) and the desire to hit customers are lower price points. As sales waane after this point, companies work on rolling out the next gen product to start the cycle again.


There's limited window & if we ever expect to see HD media mainstream it needs to happen faster than DVD or tape. And that to me IS good for the consumer. Low priced players & media - a player in every home just like DVD.

But consumers will not adopt either format into the mainstream during a format war, hence a stalemate is terrible, regardless of price. That's exactly why we need to the format war to end. Also, consumer adoption is not the only factor; if companies cannot make a sustainable profit because prices dropped too fast, they will simply stop making products and let the market die. Prices need to drop quickly but at a profitable rate (not at the rate Toshiba has been slashing their loss leader products...try to find any example of a second or thrid gen CE hardware prodcut being a loss leader) or else the formats will die no matter what. All of these market forces have to work together, and the format war is knocing them out of kilter.

Not convinced, given the relatively inexpensive components in HD players? Would seem that they could reduce the price fairly fast = more market penetration = more sales & royalties = $$$.

What inexpensive components??? Aside from blue laser diodes (which only recently dropped in price) the early players lacked the degree of integrated SoC solutions seen in todays DVD players. Plus they all have to have high quality DACs for both video and audio, and chips with the horsepower to decode the video and audio streams. There is a reason why they are more expensive than other media players on the market.


The easiest way to fight piracy is to make it so cheap that it's not worthwhile. Hell, I don't even bother backing up those 3 for $20 DVDs - not worth the time.

We agree there, but that doesn't change the fact that we won't have Fox and Disney movies without DRM, even if they are short-sighted idiots for not understanding.

Hmm...I think I'm seeing where we are talking past one another;
Actually I think we're on the same "side" just different time frames.

What inexpensive components??? Aside from blue laser diodes (which only recently dropped in price) the early players lacked the degree of integrated SoC solutions seen in todays DVD players. Plus they all have to have high quality DACs for both video and audio, and chips with the horsepower to decode the video and audio streams. There is a reason why they are more expensive than other media players on the market.
I'd say (up until recently) that the blue laser was the lynch pin of cost. The Tosh A2 uses a celeron - what's that like $15 in quantity? Point is that aside from the laser to an extent they're using existing tech = shortened life cycle.

But consumers will not adopt either format into the mainstream during a format war, hence a stalemate is terrible, regardless of price. That's exactly why we need to the format war to end.
I agree, just not quite yet. I'd like to see it go until we hit mass adoption prices......holiday season?

We agree there, but that doesn't change the fact that we won't have Fox and Disney movies without DRM, even if they are short-sighted idiots for not understanding.
:D Yeah, that worked out well for them last time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly

Read about it. When several companies are producing competing products (e.g. the companies making Blu-ray players) it is not a monopoly, period.

I am speaking of 1 format as the only HD medium. These companies can still control prices. ;)



I have an interest in constitutional law, and do know several people in the computer industry concerned with DRM issues (none of them involved with optical media...I am not an insider). Regardless, the law is clear; either studios will provide MMC, or they will have to suffer private individuals breaking their DRM and backing them up. Which do you think they'll choose?


What these companies say they will do and what their lawyers tell them they have to do are two way different things. :D
Also you speak as though managed copy will not have any restrictions?? People will still make unauthorized copies anyway so this has no bearing on MMC. :confused:

We can disagree on many things but not the fact that these studios do not want any copying managed or otherwise of thier media period. :D

In my short time around here, I've learned that first & foremost, the competition from a format war is primarily beneficial to those owning the trailing product.

I only bought into HD media when I felt comfortable enough that one side would win. Most other people are the same way. And now I get to enjoy all the benefits of the war, including limited selection and delayed releases.

I've already bought a player, what do I care that the BDP-S300 is $499 or the HD-A2 is $299? I want movies released. And that's not happening on the large scale until the format war is over. End it already. I want movies released more than I want to see player price drop another $100 (which it will anyways format war or not, prices will fall).

I just wish all the fanboys would wise up to the fact that this war benefits the consumer because if you are gonna try and tell me if 1 of these companies had the market to themselves that they would just lower prices on hardware and software for the benefit of us the consumer you my friend no nothing about business models for large corporations

yes I agree I still can't find a DVD player for less then 1k$. It must have been that having only one format prevented it from getting close to 25$ :rolleyes:

yes I agree I still can't find a DVD player for less then 1k$. It must have been that having only one format prevented it from getting close to 25$ :rolleyes:

But how many years did this take??

And what kind of performance does this get you?? :)

A decade? LMAO - by that time it will all be over & done with, downloads would be the norm...............just what Microsoft wants.


so you think DVD was stuck at 1000$ for 9.9 years and then dropped to under 25$ in a day?

the reality is that except for Toshibas fire sale DVD went through the same price curve. In under a year players went from 1000$ to just under 500$

True as this may be I am not speaking from support of 1 format or the other. But the only reason players are at their price point now is because of the format war.

I corresponded with a "high-end" audio company concerning their support for the new HD video formats. They are sitting the format wars out until there is a clear winner, and then, MAYBE, they'll consider a "high-end" source player solution; something I would be interested in IF it has high quality 5/6/7.1 channel analog audio outputs and built-in TrueHD/DTS HD MA decoding. As it stands today, research into such a product is at a standstill until there is a clear winner.

And hopefully, that clear winner is Blu-Ray (noticed the preponderance of uncompressed PCM/lossless audio tracks on Blu-ray offerings), the sooner, the better.

True as this may be I am not speaking from support of 1 format or the other. But the only reason players are at their price point now is because of the format war.

but it is a useless player and Toshiba knows it that is why they are having a fire sale. That is not a good thing, because if you buy one you just wasted your money.

The point you are missing is that with DVD you had one choice player or nothing

here there are 4

buy neither (costs nothing)
buy both (more expensive but you get everything now)
buy BD (not any cheaper then DVD at that time
buy HD DVD (waste your money)

so the consumers are not getting a benefit in their wallets from this war.
why is having to buy more cheaper players better when their sum is more?

Not true you also had VHS and laserdisc.

are you talking to me?

are you talking to me?


Yes ,I forgot this^. :)

but it is a useless player and Toshiba knows it that is why they are having a fire sale. That is not a good thing, because if you buy one you just wasted your money.

The point you are missing is that with DVD you had one choice player or nothing

here there are 4

buy neither (costs nothing)
buy both (more expensive but you get everything now)
buy BD (not any cheaper then DVD at that time
buy HD DVD (waste your money)

so the consumers are not getting a benefit in their wallets from this war.
why is having to buy more cheaper players better when their sum is more?


Again these allegiances to Sony or Toshiba are hilarious. :)

Please bring on HD VOD so I dont have to waste my money on discs and can watch what I want when I want.

but it is a useless player and Toshiba knows it

Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously when you make absurd remarks like that?

Bradley

Again these allegiances to Sony or Toshiba are hilarious.

what allegiances. Just because you decided something stupid and I pointed out that no ones life is cheaper with a war where you need to pay twice as much.

Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously when you make absurd remarks like that?



no I don't expect morons to take me seriouysly they are not smart enough.

fire sales only exist for useless items. Toshiba IS having a fire sale. Ergo they realize it is a useless item.

what allegiances. Just because you decided something stupid and I pointed out that no ones life is cheaper with a war where you need to pay twice as much.


You are incapable of simple math. Competition always lower prices. ;)


How are we paying twice as much again?



You must post just to post.

400+300>>>>>>>>>> what the cheapest DVD players were in June of 98

400+300>>>>>>>>>> what the cheapest DVD players were in June of 98


I need a translator here...what I think you are saying is that dvd players were cheaper in 1998??


You have to add inflation to this formula my friend and if you do you will see that it is still cheaper today. :)

I have always agreed with the sentiment expressed by the OP.

The competition has benefited us consumers in almost every way.

When the early BD releases were shamed by the PQ on HD DVD, the BD camp had to get their game on and compete - therefore improving the product.

When the HD DVD players included more features and interactivity, the BD camp had to get the *ss in gear and announce better players, with more interactivity, and more codec support.

When the HD DVD players were half the price of BD players, the BD camp (eventually) recognized that this was important to consumers, and announced further price cuts on the "cheaper" players that they had not yet even shipped.

Whereas DVHS releases cost anything from $35 to $45 per title - HD DVD and bluray had to come out swinging at prices closer to $20.

The format war will drive hardware prices down to the point where the hardware manufacturers will not make any money on these devices. If they don't have any money to make in the market, then they will pull out. If these players go too cheap, then this will become a losing proposition and they will stop making players altogether.In your opinion... IMO, however, this is False. They will add more features and compete.

HD DVD had little to do with BD's pricedrops in players. PS3 did. Nonsense, IMO. The BD camp was very clearly stung by the falling prices of the HD DVD players. The PS3 was always part of the strategy, and the prices of the other BD gear were fixed in advance, with full knowledge of the PS3 price.

But I also note this point of yours self-contradicts your above point that competing HD pricing would force both HD and BD pricing down too low. Can't say it both ways...

The format war did nothing for you there. Just the PS3. Nonsense. As much as you'd like the PS3 to take credit for all the benefits of the competition between the formats, this is a fairly ridiculous position. The PS3 is a captive product of the main protagonist in the battle, and has not been the source of the competitive stings suffered by BD - and CERTAINLY had nothing at all to do with the drops in disc pricing right before the launch of both formats.

I'd say (up until recently) that the blue laser was the lynch pin of cost. The Tosh A2 uses a celeron - what's that like $15 in quantity? Point is that aside from the laser to an extent they're using existing tech = shortened life cycle.

somehow I find it hard to believe that intel would devote fab capacity to a chip that sells for $15 when it could use that same fab capacity and sell much higher margin chips.

Heh. Funny thing is I agree. Good prices on software + players, not to mention something fun to debate about! It will be heaven at the point when all studios go neutral! :)

I know this. The war must be a good thing for the consumer. When HD was first introduced just over a year ago HDDVD players were $500 and up. Soon after followed BD starting at $1000.
By Christmas, we should see both under $500 (HDDVD-$200, BD-$300). That's not bad at all. Many paid that much just for their first prog scan SDDVD player.