$25,000,000 a pop. So this is great... not, what do you think they're going to charge us now for these things and do you think it'll be worth it? I was expecting little $15-$20 expansions, now I'm starting to see $30-$40 being a possibility if MS wants to so much as break even on their investment. Thoughts?

I doubt very seriously that MS would charge that much for episodic content.

The mistake is assuming that MS will expect these episodes to pay for themselves. Considering that there are people who will now be swayed to buy a 360 instead of a PS3 for the promise of exclusive GTA content, it is simply an investment.

So, more users buying consoles (And presumably buying games beyond GTA) make this an easy decision. MS will make their money back, and they won't need to do it from the episodes themselves.

It may not be too bad. nexgenwars puts 360 sales at 11million. Depending on how many copies are sold you could be looking at 800 points ($10) minimum for the DLC. If this is more than a few new skins and one or two maps it may be worth it (to fans of the game). Lets also remember that the publisher sets the DLC price, so in this case it wont be MS. They are probably hoping to make more money on increased console sales which will lead to increased game sales.

$25,000,000 a pop. So this is great... not, what do you think they're going to charge us now for these things and do you think it'll be worth it? I was expecting little $15-$20 expansions, now I'm starting to see $30-$40 being a possibility if MS wants to so much as break even on their investment. Thoughts?

I don't think they paid all that money with the intentions on breaking even with this particular product. I think they are trying to play with Sony's heads.

Dreamaster

Hmm, I honestly hadn't even thought about the cost until now. If they want it to be profitable then it will indeed cost a bundle. But, maybe MS does not even care about being profitable and just wanted to have something that the competition didn't.

I doubt very seriously that MS would charge that much for episodic content.

The mistake is assuming that MS will expect these episodes to pay for themselves. Considering that there are people who will now be swayed to buy a 360 instead of a PS3 for the promise of exclusive GTA content, it is simply an investment.

So, more users buying consoles (And presumably buying games beyond GTA) make this an easy decision. MS will make their money back, and they won't need to do it from the episodes themselves.

LMFAO! Are you serious? I agree w/ you that MS is doing this primarilly to sell consoles, but c'mon, they will squeeze every little dime out of that content as they possibly can. Have you been on live lately? Horse armor? The price of a ton of crappy games is 10 bucks. How about 6 bux for a few extra songs on guitar hero.

I'm not saying this as a jab as MS either, more power to em, its a free market and they should charge what people will pay.

YOu've got it wrong... They payed 50,000,000 microsoft points for the content. That works out to... Damit I can never figure that out...

YOu've got it wrong... They payed 50,000,000 microsoft points for the content. That works out to... Damit I can never figure that out...

LOL, awesome post.

I don't think they paid all that money with the intentions on breaking even with this particular product. I think they are trying to play with Sony's heads.

Dreamaster

Correct, this isn't the first time they've done this.. Paying big bucks for exclusive rights isn't always about making money on that particular product.

If MS paid for the episodes, does that mean MS becomes the publisher, and the $25Mil is what Rockstar will get paid for doing the work? In that case MS wouldn't have to give any money from the Live sales to Rockstar. That's 1.7 million downloads at $15 a pop. Sounds reasonable.

I guess it boils down to is the $25Mil just bribe money on top of revenue from the content, or were they sub-contracted for a fixed rate per episode?

LINK (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6023&Itemid=2)


In other words, Microsoft is confident that Take-Two's portion of the revenue generated by GTA IV content downloads will surpass the $50 million advance paid.

"Microsoft basically said that it's happy to pay [Take-Two] in advance $50 million in revenue that [Take-Two] is going to receive from GTA IV downloads," he said.

Microsoft takes about a 30 percent cut from Xbox Live Marketplace content sales, according to Pachter.

Taking that 70/30 split (publisher/Microsoft) and the $50 million advance into account, Microsoft is apparently confident that GTA IV download revenues over Xbox Live will be at least $70 million.

If revenues don't meet that figure, Take-Two will have to return some of the advance, according to Pachter.



using the 70/30 cut example....
50mil divided by $10/user (ms gets $3) = 16.7mil users buying content
50mil divided by $20/user (ms gets $6) = 8.3mil users buying content


Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas sold 14.8mill on PS2 (sold 1.93mil on the original xbox)
Grand Theft Auto: Vice City sold 14.2mil on PS2

it will be interesting to see if MS can make a profit on this purchase

Using the example above, at $20/eps. they only need to have 1.75 million downloads/eps. 2.33 million at $15/eps.

$70,000,000/2(eps)/20(or 15)

$20 mil for MS and $50 mil for R*.

Just remember if you buy these two episodes ($15 each?) they have zero trade in value. You cannot sell, rent or gift them. The model is to get as much $$ as possible for R* and MS, just food for thought.

I think this is just MS doing its part to take over the video game industry. Doing a good job of it so far.

I can't help but reflect from a year ago to today how things are going. All the rumors and no this is going to get PWNED when released.....sorry please continue. Seriously it isn't like this hasn't been going on in the industry companies paying for exclusive content and MS has all the money to burn to do that. Now sure why the worries of how much the episodic content is going to cost especially when we don't know fully what the content will be. I would guess just like Half Life 2 vs guns and skins update.

Just remember if you buy these two episodes ($15 each?) they have zero trade in value. You cannot sell, rent or gift them. The model is to get as much $$ as possible for R* and MS, just food for thought.


This shouldn't be a suprise. They should offer a rent or allow us to sell the content to someone else on Live?

This shouldn't be a suprise. They should offer a rent or allow us to sell the content to someone else on Live?

No, but if they make it disc also you will have the free market to drive prices down, DLC never goes on sale and Fry's, BB et.c cannot compete for your business. Just compare Oblivion and it's expansions on the PC vs Live prices for a great example on how you are getting bent over.

LMAO.... so with the extra content GTAIV could be a $100 game. Nope this won't be getting me to buy an 360. Now if they put 50 million into making the damn thing reliable, I'd buy one tommorrow. Instead of buying off developers, maybe MS should put some more money into quality control...

For that kind of money these "Episodes" must be HUGE. You can dev an entire game for $25m.

For that kind of money these "Episodes" must be HUGE. You can dev an entire game for $25m.

50mill advance against expected earnings is not the same thing as paying someone 50mill for content. This an advance on money that R* would earn eventually anyway.

Note that if the projected earnings are not met then the developer has to pay money back.

No, but if they make it disc also you will have the free market to drive prices down, DLC never goes on sale and Fry's, BB et.c cannot compete for your business. Just compare Oblivion and it's expansions on the PC vs Live prices for a great example on how you are getting bent over.

Woah...I'm totally getting skrewed....I'm tossing my 360 immediately.
Oh..wait, no I'm not.

Release direct to digital stream, let users grab the data on hard drives, no middlemen, no distributon models, no packaging costs, no art-designs, no disc costs, no duplication plants, no shipping fees...but the game still costs $49.99. All that savings goes right back to the developer. Its the future, and no developer wants to give up that opportunity for high-profit releases by eliminating all those costs.

Steam has been doing this with the HL2 properties for years now...

Woah...I'm totally getting skrewed....I'm tossing my 360 immediately.
Oh..wait, no I'm not.

Release direct to digital stream, let users grab the data on hard drives, no middlemen, no distributon models, no packaging costs, no art-designs, no disc costs, no duplication plants, no shipping fees...but the game still costs $49.99. All that savings goes right back to the developer. Its the future, and no developer wants to give up that opportunity for high-profit releases by eliminating all those costs.

Steam has been doing this with the HL2 properties for years now...


Thank you

LMAO.... so with the extra content GTAIV could be a $100 game. Nope this won't be getting me to buy an 360. Now if they put 50 million into making the damn thing reliable, I'd buy one tommorrow. Instead of buying off developers, maybe MS should put some more money into quality control...


Will.....please tell me you are joking. No different then people buying.......oh wait for it GRAW extra content on disc at 29.99 when released

Originally posted by mboojigga
Will.....please tell me you are joking.
nope! While I enjoy playing around with the GTA games, there is no way in hell I'll be putting $100 worth of my time in this kind of game. Yes its mindless fun, yes I love the fact that it pisses off the politically correct police, but I can only enjoy so much of it. But thats just me...

nope! While I enjoy playing around with the GTA games, there is no way in hell I'll be putting $100 worth of my time in this kind of game. Yes its mindless fun, yes I love the fact that it pisses off the politically correct police, but I can only enjoy so much of it. But thats just me...


I wouldn't expect anyone to buy a 360 based on the extra content alone. If someone was waiting on the 360 or PS3 and they were waiting on GTA4 they are going to look at the $200 price difference vs episodic content that won't be out until a later date that they wouldn't have a clue when it would be released

nope! While I enjoy playing around with the GTA games, there is no way in hell I'll be putting $100 worth of my time in this kind of game. Yes its mindless fun, yes I love the fact that it pisses off the politically correct police, but I can only enjoy so much of it. But thats just me...

same here, I never came remotely close to completely all the extra stuff in GTA:III or Vice City (even less on that one).

Jeebus...did this post magically slip into the PS3 forum by accident?? Because I'm seeing alot of the same lame posturing that passes for discussion over on that forum in this thread. Microsoft gets exclusive content, Sony doesn't. Doesn't matter why, just is.
Let it go.....

360 guys: Wait and see if its any good and what it will cost, and decide then....all this "its gonna be too expensive, I don't need extra content, its a ripoff it should be included in the game to begin with!" crap is frightening! :)

PS3 guys: Go back to your forum and keep reminding each other how awesome LAIR is gonna be when its released...someday......on BD50 with 4 gig levels. Woot.

Anyhow, back your regulary scheduled bitching :D

WARNING: Anecdotal Evidence Below!

I have to wonder how strong the GTA phenomenon still is, fo shizzle. I still have the GTA3 and GTA: Vice City double pack for the original Xbox sitting on my shelf. I don't think I played the games more than a combined total of eight hours. I never finished Spider-Man 2, and haven't given any substantial thought toward of picking up Spidey 3, Crackdown or Saint's Row for the 360. Clearly for me, the appeal of the "sandbox" game has waned. I know that Liberty City has been one of the most lucrative game settings in all history, but are gamers really going to be as excited about this title as (say) Vice City? Does it make sense for any company to invest this heavily in just the DLC of a single IP, when gamers might be starting to look for something different and original? On the surface this may look like a no-brainer, but I'm not so convinced this approach is going to pan out.

It may be that I'm completely wrong and Joe Q. Public still craves GTA, so I'd welcome any rebuttals on this matter...

Yeah, I wondered the same thing when I heard how much they spent. I would guess that the sand box type game has already hit its peak. It will be a great seller for sure, but nothing like it was before. That's my guess anyway.

The real quesion is, will it sell consoles? Is this extra content going to make people buy a 360 instead of a PS3? Or make people buy a 360 at all even if they were never considering the PS3? I'm not convinced.

http://www.pringle.net.nz/blog/content/binary/homer-rebuttal.gif
REBUTTLE, EH!? :D

Seriously: I agree....the sandbox concept is starting to show some wear. Crackdown had a fresh take on it, if only the game had a more involved hand-to-hand mode (like Final Fight on a city-wide level!) :D I'll buy the game when it comes out because I want to see how the game has evolved on the next-gen systems, the visuals sure do look impressive. But I also accept that if the missions are more of the same "work your way up the crime ladder" I'll grow bored pretty quickly.

WARNING: Anecdotal Evidence Below!

I have to wonder how strong the GTA phenomenon still is, fo shizzle. I still have the GTA3 and GTA: Vice City double pack for the original Xbox sitting on my shelf. I don't think I played the games more than a combined total of eight hours. I never finished Spider-Man 2, and haven't given any substantial thought toward of picking up Spidey 3, Crackdown or Saint's Row for the 360. Clearly for me, the appeal of the "sandbox" game has waned. I know that Liberty City has been one of the most lucrative game settings in all history, but are gamers really going to be as excited about this title as (say) Vice City? Does it make sense for any company to invest this heavily in just the DLC of a single IP, when gamers might be starting to look for something different and original? On the surface this may look like a no-brainer, but I'm not so convinced this approach is going to pan out.

It may be that I'm completely wrong and Joe Q. Public still craves GTA, so I'd welcome any rebuttals on this matter...

Yes, yes it is. I LOVE GTA, it's a great series. GTAIII created a whole new way to play games with it's open ended sandbox style gameplay, GTA:VC took that sandbox and put it in an 80's Miami type setting (which is why it's still my favorite in the series) and added a compelling story, and GTA:SA though a little too urban for me had a great story and improved on every aspect of the previous two titles. GTAIV looks amazing, graphically it's beautiful, the idea of a living breathing city is simply awesome, this will most likely be the first next-gen game to truly evolve the concept of the sandbox style of gameplay instead of just giving it a fresh coat of paint, and the technical limitations that held GTA back and flawed it in some ways last gen has completely gone out the window (no more pop-in). The GTA style of gameplay is still awesome and fun and I can't wait to see how great it is in next-gen.

As for if the episodic content is worth 50 mil to MS, I'm sure they'll get they're moneys worth but despite what others have said I can still see we the consumers getting shafted and paying the cost of a whole new game for the episodes simply because MS knows they can and people will still buy it.

WARNING: Anecdotal Evidence Below!

I have to wonder how strong the GTA phenomenon still is, fo shizzle. I still have the GTA3 and GTA: Vice City double pack for the original Xbox sitting on my shelf. I don't think I played the games more than a combined total of eight hours. I never finished Spider-Man 2, and haven't given any substantial thought toward of picking up Spidey 3, Crackdown or Saint's Row for the 360. Clearly for me, the appeal of the "sandbox" game has waned. I know that Liberty City has been one of the most lucrative game settings in all history, but are gamers really going to be as excited about this title as (say) Vice City? Does it make sense for any company to invest this heavily in just the DLC of a single IP, when gamers might be starting to look for something different and original? On the surface this may look like a no-brainer, but I'm not so convinced this approach is going to pan out.

It may be that I'm completely wrong and Joe Q. Public still craves GTA, so I'd welcome any rebuttals on this matter...


I gues the only thing I could point out is someone would feel the same way about every other genre like FPS and would wonder the same thing. Out of all the sand box games GTA is the most successful. Of course there are a couple of FPS that are the best of the bunch but hopefully you get my point.

Jeebus...did this post magically slip into the PS3 forum by accident?? Because I'm seeing alot of the same lame posturing that passes for discussion over on that forum in this thread. Microsoft gets exclusive content, Sony doesn't. Doesn't matter why, just is.
Let it go.....

360 guys: Wait and see if its any good and what it will cost, and decide then....all this "its gonna be too expensive, I don't need extra content, its a ripoff it should be included in the game to begin with!" crap is frightening! :)

PS3 guys: Go back to your forum and keep reminding each other how awesome LAIR is gonna be when its released...someday......on BD50 with 4 gig levels. Woot.

Anyhow, back your regulary scheduled bitching :D

I nominate this post for the hall of fame. :D

I have to agree with the sandbox genre being overdone and just getting boring. I never even played Vice City or SA through. Heck I "might" have put 8 hours into SA and got sick of the hip hop crap and again the repetitive missions. Crackdown had something new, the super power thing was fun even if it was short. I'm not excited for another GTA at all.

I think that Oblivion content only sold for $19.(Its 40+ hours) Just because Microsoft payes $50,000,000 doesn't mean that that expense is going to be payed by the consumer. Microsofts newest strategy seems to be just adding a little bit of DLC to cross platform games so that their console has the "Ultimate" version of the game. This way... If your a big fan of a franchise, but happen to have a PS3; you may just have your motivation to buy a 360. Especially since its 2/3 the price.

Not only that but for everyone looking at MS giving money away is no different then College players getting money thrown at them. They are trying to get R* on their team. What better way to grab more exclusives in the future then to throw money at a company to help the cost of episodic content. This has more to do with establishing a relationship with R then it does with the assumptions people are making in this thread.

All MSFT was give R* an advance on future revenues. Maybe the cash upfront sounded good to R*, who knows, perhaps they needed that infusion of cash, but some people make it sound like MSFT paid a premium for the content, which I don't believe is the case.

360 guys: Wait and see if its any good and what it will cost, and decide then....all this "its gonna be too expensive, I don't need extra content, its a ripoff it should be included in the game to begin with!" crap is frightening! :)

PS3 guys: Go back to your forum and keep reminding each other how awesome LAIR is gonna be when its released...someday......on BD50 with 4 gig levels. Woot.

Anyhow, back your regulary scheduled bitching :D

amen.

If I bought this game, I'd end up wondering why I can't travel an entire block with a single leap from the top of a tall building, why my car doesn't transform into the Bat Mobile when I get in it, and why I can't "see my house from here."

All MSFT was give R* an advance on future revenues. Maybe the cash upfront sounded good to R*, who knows, perhaps they needed that infusion of cash, but some people make it sound like MSFT paid a premium for the content, which I don't believe is the case.

The thread title is an amusing illustration of how news get's mangled over the internet.

Article says: (http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6023&Itemid=2) Microsoft Paid $50m Advance for GTA IV Content

Thread says: Holy crap, MS paid $50,000,000 for the GTAIV episodes

If MS actually paid for the content, it's certainly not stated, although an advance of this size certainly has value of itself.

Responses take the thread title literally. Now all that's needed to for someone to spread the same message to other boards. 1 little word...

Microsoft wasn't even mentioned by Take 2. Joystiq's article on this is pretty level headed.

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/06/18/take-two-got-50m-for-gtaiv-episodic-content/

Just so everyone is clear on this, MS didn't pay anyone $50M dollars. They loaned it to them with the expectation that it will be repaid off the profits from the game. If the game is a stinker, MS will still get paid back.

From Joystiq article:
So was this a good move for Microsoft? Downloadable content is definitely a selling points for the Xbox 360 version of the game, but $50 million is a lot of money to pay just to get some additional content. If you're prepared to throw your money around, why not go all the way and secure the entire franchise as a system exclusive?
Exactly! I don't see MS selling $50 million worth of DL content. Not to sure what they were thinking...

Once again, MS didn't pay them $50M. They loaned it to them as an advance of the profits that they expect to be made off the game. MS will get that $50M paid back. If the game doesn't sell well, the publisher must pay it back directly.

So there's no risk on MS for doing this - except the risk that the publisher will default.

No, but if they make it disc also you will have the free market to drive prices down, DLC never goes on sale and Fry's, BB et.c cannot compete for your business. Just compare Oblivion and it's expansions on the PC vs Live prices for a great example on how you are getting bent over.

Don't forget that in addition to Marketplace prices not being driven down by competition, if the 360 you purchase the content on happens to be replaced, upgraded, or swapped for a refurb during an MS "repair" you'll only be able to access the extra downloaded content if you're connected to the internet. That is, unless you spend hours on the phone with MS support arguing, open another silver account, be credited all points you spent, and get the content tied to the new console.

For many this isn't a problem, but for anyone who has multiple users on the same machine, or who takes their system to an area without internet connection, as I do, they won't be able to access the downloaded content. Just another reason for me to skip the DLC unfortunately, as otherwise I'd be buying a lot more from them than the zero I'm buying now.

ah yeah GTAIV who cares?

I'm sure it was a coincidence that the entire Rockstar site (and mirrors) were shut down due to the sheer amount of people trying to download... a trailer.

Float your own boats fellas, we can't all fit into one!

Float your own boats fellas, we can't all fit into one!A fair enough point. I guess I just wish that kind of moolah could be invested in an original IP instead of yet another sequel...

I think this game has the potential to sell a lot of new consoles. The problem is, as a cross-platform game, MS recognizes that this game isn't just going to sell new 360s, but new PS3s as well.

The advance from MS is probably to ensure that R* has the necessary resources to make the DLC for the 360 so good that anybody who's on the fence as to which console they're going to buy for GTAIV (360 or PS3) will say, "the 360 version of the game is better; I'm buying a 360."

$25,000,000 a pop. So this is great... not, what do you think they're going to charge us now for these things and do you think it'll be worth it? I was expecting little $15-$20 expansions, now I'm starting to see $30-$40 being a possibility if MS wants to so much as break even on their investment. Thoughts?
Just because MS paid this fee doesn't necessarily mean they will pass the cost on to us.

As other's have mentioned, it is more important to drive 360 sales and any exclusive GTA content will help achieve this.

BTW, MS has about 40 billion in cash in the bank. This number has zero impact on their bottom line (figuratively speaking, of course). :)

The only thing Microsoft loses on an advance is the interest on the money between now and the time when the advance is paid back. While the interest on $50 million is nothing to sneeze at, it's a far cry from the $50 million itself.

honestly, I don't care if it's 50 bucks....that's 50 bucks that should have been spent on increasing Console reliability and fixing those consoles that died on people. Hopefully the new heat pipe thing works out.

I loved the last 3 GTA's and I played them all to 100% complete, which with all the fun and goofing around (I sometimes just rode a bicycle around for hours having fun) I spent over 100+ Hours on each game. I also waited until they were on the XBOX before buying them because I like the controller better (Triggers rules for driving). But most people bought it on the PS2 and some people don't like to wait for a game to come out 6 months later when they have both systems. The extra content will help people that have both systems choose the 360 because they want the extra content later on. I think it will help sell systems also. I think it is smart of MS to do this. It will help them sell more copies of the game and that is more money in the bank for them, even if people don't buy the downloaded content....

At first glance it seems like a ludicrous amount of cash, but is Microsoft's reported $50 million shell-out to secure exclusive dibs on two downloadable Grand Theft Auto IV episodes really that crazy? After all, Rockstar's crime epics sell like discounted hot cakes - GTA III, Vice City and San Andreas have shifted somewhere in the region of 35 million copies between them - and no one can deny that the franchise has played a starring role in making Sony's PlayStation 2 the world's most successful console.

In the minds of many gamers, GTA IV is the first essential "next-gen" title and we're willing to bet our limited edition San Andreas basketball that the period around the game's release will see a significant spike in console sales. And Xbox 360 is in pole position to capitalize on any such spending frenzy: not only is Microsoft's machine considerably cheaper than its Sony rival, but with the Xbox maker promising "hours of entirely new gameplay" in the two subsequent episodes (the first of which is planned to hit Xbox Live in March 2008) it looks as though it's going to have the most attractive GTA IV package to tempt gamers.

Ultimately, then, it's not about Microsoft recouping its money from the content that it's paid $50 million for - it's about swaying people when they're standing at the counter, cash in hand and deciding which version of GTA IV they're going to buy and, potentially, which console they are going to make a long-term investment in. So, while Microsoft's payout might sound a lot for some downloadable content, in terms of establishing a victor in the console wars we're sure that it will help Xbox 360 gain a significant advantage over PS3. And we're sure that's something Microsoft would happily raid its piggy bank for, time and time again.

June 19, 2007


http://www.gamesradar.com/us/xbox360/game/news/article.jsp?sectionId=1006&articleId=20070619103056824048&releaseId=2006051014323586065

If the message that gets across is 'we have the better version of GTA IV and we have Halo 3' then it probably doesn't hurt at Christmas time.

Also worth mentioning (and this is probably old news to most of you) is MS screwed up many years ago when they had the chance to get exclusive rights to the GTA franchise.

If memory serves correctly, beginning with GTA III, Rockstar approached MS about exclusive rights and MS declined. The consequence of that decision capitulated PS2 sales.

MS doesn't want to make the same mistake twice.

Woah...I'm totally getting skrewed....I'm tossing my 360 immediately.
Oh..wait, no I'm not.

Release direct to digital stream, let users grab the data on hard drives, no middlemen, no distributon models, no packaging costs, no art-designs, no disc costs, no duplication plants, no shipping fees...but the game still costs $49.99. All that savings goes right back to the developer. Its the future, and no developer wants to give up that opportunity for high-profit releases by eliminating all those costs.

Steam has been doing this with the HL2 properties for years now...

Not really....you get games cheaper buying online on Steam. The hard copies have the added cost that pays for all of the things you mentionned. Microsoft just tried to capitalize on everything.