It seems like with Microsoft giving Netflix's CEO/founder Reed Hastings a spot on their BOD might have awaken Blockbuster and others who have a bone in this war. It is clear to most by now that the only intent Microsoft has in this war is to confuse and aggravate the consumer about next generation optical format, with its goal of mass adoption inferior quality HD-lite downloads. This would not help Blockbuster in anyway, and at the same time it will not help the Best Buys,Circuit Citys, Consumer Electronic companies. Etc. of the world when it comes to selling next generation optical media and equipment. I don't understand why BDA has not been pushing this point further and why on earth would Best Buy or any other company that would not gain a revenue stream from downloads and lose a huge revenue stream (optical Media,CE devices,etc.) be supporting HD-DVD at this point? So I guess my final question is do you think other companies like Blockbuster are starting to realize the negative impact on current and future business that HD-DVD is having? This thread is not saying Best Buy is definitely going Blu-Ray Exclusive, but rather does some of the above facts sway them like it did Blockbuster?

It is clear to most by now that the only intent Microsoft has in this war is to confuse and aggravate the consumer about next generation optical format, with its goal of mass adoption inferior quality HD-lite downloads.

It is???

not after hearing what the coo of blockbuster said on cnbc!

I think dropping HD-DVD will do more harm to Bestbuy than help, I support both formats, but I do not support companies that do not give both an equal shake.

It is???


Well with statments from Richard Doherty, Microsoft’s program manager for Media Entertainment Convergence such as this..

“I don’t know that [HD] will be delivered on an optical disc in five to 10 years,” he said, pointing to downloads and broadband delivery. “At Microsoft, we’d rather it wasn’t [on a disc].”
http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=10757


I would say that it is fairly obvious what their goal is. Do you disagree?

I think dropping HD-DVD will do more harm to Bestbuy than help, I support both formats, but I do not support companies that do not give both an equal shake.


But my question is do you think Best Buy is looking at poor overall hi-def media sales (Blu-Ray and HD-DVD) and thinking that this will end up favoring downloads in the future and what benefit do we gain form this? I am thinking this might have been a big factor with Blockbuster.

Well with statments from Richard Doherty, Microsoft’s program manager for Media Entertainment Convergence such as this..

“I don’t know that [HD] will be delivered on an optical disc in five to 10 years,” he said, pointing to downloads and broadband delivery. “At Microsoft, we’d rather it wasn’t [on a disc].”
http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=10757


I would say that it is fairly obvious what their goal is. Do you disagree?

If Sony Pictures were smart they should be looking at the future of downloadable media as well. Wouldn't you agree?

Well with statments from Richard Doherty, Microsoft’s program manager for Media Entertainment Convergence such as this..

“I don’t know that [HD] will be delivered on an optical disc in five to 10 years,” he said, pointing to downloads and broadband delivery. “At Microsoft, we’d rather it wasn’t [on a disc].”
http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=10757


I would say that it is fairly obvious what their goal is. Do you disagree?

Yes I do disagree.

But, more importantly, Richard Doherty -- the person quoted -- disagrees.

Apparently, you missed his posts here where he claimed the quotes were taken completely out of context (no shock, given the level of "reporting" that HMM has done lately) and clarified his remarks and Microsoft's position.

I went to a local Best Buy yesterday and they had five Blu-Ray player demos running (three in BB and two in Magnolia). They had zero HD DVD players set up. They also had eight feet of blu-ray discs and only four feet of HD DVD discs.

I think Best Buy will continue to carry both the question is will the increase their inventory or countinue w just day and date discs. Which I think hurts them the most each side puts out several HD discs a week. HD-DVD put out like 10 a few weeks back. Best buy had 2 of them.

Becase of this I've turned to online ordering. As its the only place to get the older movies. A lot of the new stuff has been very poor.
Some Best buy still have UMD, SACD and DVD-A areas despite small sales. So both formats will remain

If Sony Pictures were smart they should be looking at the future of downloadable media as well. Wouldn't you agree?

To a degree yes and they already have downloadable games on the PS3. Do I think it should be the main concentration. NO. The reason behind this is because downloads are a niche market and most of that niche market is people who don't pay for content but rather share it for free with each other on Torrent sites. The flawed strategy for these companies is that ever since MP3s killed off CD sales they believed internet delivery was the future for all Entertainment venues. Only problem is the only reason downloading music was so popular at first was because it was FREE, remember Napster? Once they start charging for it people move along as evidence by whats happening now with music downloads. "Apples I-tunes turning quiet"

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/12/13/BUGERMUJ1C1.DTL

I would never "BUY" a download mp3, HD-Movie, etc. because the quality is garbage. I download my music from limewire for free and that is fine because I will not pay for garbage quality. How successful is DVD vs VOD? DVD sales trounce that of VOD purchases for cable companies. What makes microsoft and netflix think they can offer the same inferior quality VOD but ask people to wait a couple of hours for the movie to download. You will see the same thing happen over the next 7 years, Blu-Ray will be a success the way DVD was and downloading movie services will struggle like itunes, VOD, etc. Downloads are for a demographic that could care less about quality as long as its free. So to answer the question, if I was Sony, yes I would offer some download content but it would not be my major investment area.

It is clear to most by now that the only intent Microsoft has in this war is to confuse and aggravate the consumer about next generation optical format, with its goal of mass adoption inferior quality HD-lite downloads.Not at all - but it IS clear to some of us reading this that your intent is to attempt to make people believe so... (fud alert)

I don't understand why BDA has not been pushing this point furtherCall the BD hotline and ask?

So I guess my final question is do you think other companies like Blockbuster are starting to realize the negative impact on current and future business that HD-DVD is having? Hmmm, you mean like the fact that they are getting more hardware sales from HD DVD?

This thread is not saying Best Buy is definitely going Blu-Ray Exclusive...Yes, we figured out this was mostly for "watering the plants"... :)

I would never "BUY" a download mp3, HD-Movie, etc. because the quality is garbage. I download my music from limewire for free and that is fine because I will not pay for garbage quality. How successful is DVD vs VOD? DVD sales trounce that of VOD purchases for cable companies. What makes microsoft and netflix think they can offer the same inferior quality VOD but ask people to wait a couple of hours for the movie to download. You will see the same thing happen over the next 7 years, Blu-Ray will be a success the way DVD was and downloading movie services will struggle like itunes, VOD, etc. Downloads are for a demographic that could care less about quality as long as its free. So to answer the question, if I was Sony, yes I would offer some download content but it would not be my major investment area.

Well, at least you admit you've never watched a movie via Xbox 360. Because you certainly don't speak as though you know what the quality really is.

It's certainly not "HD-Lite" as 720p last time I checked was considered an official HDTC resolution. This is not DirecTV here.

BTW, we rented Happily Never After on XBVM last night. Other than the fact the animation looked excellent, the video was ready to play in less than 10 minutes. See, Microsoft does a little bit of streaming in their downloads now.

Ahh, but you "would never buy" a movie like that, which means you haven't, which means you don't know this. :rolleyes:

Well, at least you admit you've never watched a movie via Xbox 360. Because you certainly don't speak as though you know what the quality really is.

It's certainly not "HD-Lite" as 720p last time I checked was considered an official HDTC resolution. This is not DirecTV here.

BTW, we rented Happily Never After on XBVM last night. Other than the fact the animation looked excellent, the video was ready to play in less than 10 minutes. See, Microsoft does a little bit of streaming in their downloads now.

Ahh, but you "would never buy" a movie like that, which means you haven't, which means you don't know this. :rolleyes:

1280x720P60 is a HD resolution, but that means 60fps. There's only 24 frames in film in almost every movie.

1920x1080P24 is certainly fullHD, but 1280x720P24? There's < 1/2 the pixels in each frame and the frame rate's the same. IE: it is < 1/2 HD.

HD-lite is certainly a fair term.

HD-lite is certainly a fair term.
HD lite was not coined for 720p.

HD Lite was coined to describe some of the really poor-excuse-for-HD on a certain satellite provider.

instead of 1920 x 1080 - the material is being broadcast sometimes as 1440 by 1080, or even 1280 by 1080 - and in low bitrate mpeg too.

720p can be used well for sports and other high-action content - it's actually better for sports in many ways than 1080i, for those who's deinterlacers knock 1080i down to 540p.

However, none of these match the 720p used on the MS downloads, as they are in VC1. They look darned good :)

Well, at least you admit you've never watched a movie via Xbox 360. Because you certainly don't speak as though you know what the quality really is.

It's certainly not "HD-Lite" as 720p last time I checked was considered an official HDTC resolution. This is not DirecTV here.

BTW, we rented Happily Never After on XBVM last night. Other than the fact the animation looked excellent, the video was ready to play in less than 10 minutes. See, Microsoft does a little bit of streaming in their downloads now.

Ahh, but you "would never buy" a movie like that, which means you haven't, which means you don't know this. :rolleyes:

I have downloaded movie trailers in 720P option on the PS3 and their is no doubt it is "HD-Lite" when compared with Blu-Ray disk at 1080P. I am watching on a 1080P projector and 106" screen so maybe the difference is more noticeable to me. Here is the pricing structure for the HD-Downloads on X-box live.

# HD TV Episodes -- 240 points ($3)
# SD TV Episodes -- 160 points ($2)
# HD Movies -- 480 points ($6)
# SD Movies -- 320 points ($4)
# Classic HD Movies -- 360 points ($4.50)
# Classic SD Movies -- 240 points ($3)

So on top of the $60 a year X-box live gold package they are charge $6 for a new release movie in 720P that can not be saved and is a 24hr rental according to this article. http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2064077,00.asp
Meanwhile I am paying $15 dollars a month from Netflix and avg. 10 movies a month in 1080P and lossless sound. If the PS3 ever offered something like this I would say the same thing, I am not going to pay more for garbage, when I can pay less for quality. The only thing I can't understand is I thought everyone on this forum was an A/V enthusiast and cared about quality? MP3s and HD-Downloads in 720P that don't have lossless sound are not quality. Don't get me wrong I don't care is Microsoft and Sony would do this on the side, but when we start having people talking about it replacing Optical media all together is when I would start to worry as an enthusiast.

The logistics of renting disks from a B&M are very different than sales of players and disks.

1. Renting requires that you have a critical mass of titles and depth of copy. This is an investment. Hence, you want to focus your efforts. BB is planning to stock 170 Blu-ray titles they said.
2. Selling disks just requires that you have the current titles. BestBuy is just selling the new titles (with a few selected catalogers) and is not making an effort to carry the kind of selection that you need for rental.

My guess is that stores like Bestbuy will continue to carry both formats. If Bestbuy (or Target for example) drops one format, this would be truly significant.

At our BB here in Honolulu it was all Bluray this Bluray that for many months, there was a toshiba player running but on a crappy HDTV and was difficult to spot. We talked to an installer and the conversation was all Bluray.

Just last week I turned the corner and what do I see, an HD-DVD setup that somewhat rivals the Bluray setup. It was running on a 1080p HDTV but was only spitting out 720p. Good thing the remote was readily available so I helped out and set the player to output 1080p. Wop your jaws! Even the BB sales dude was impressed, I told him it would look even better if they calibrated the TV. By the way the Tosh player was and A20.

On the content note, BR movies hardly moving. The HD-DVD section was replenished twice already in three weeks. The air inside our BB seams to wreaked HD-DVD.

So BB=BR exclusive, Im not so sure just yet.

The logistics of renting disks from a B&M are very different than sales of players and disks.

1. Renting requires that you have a critical mass of titles and depth of copy. This is an investment. Hence, you want to focus your efforts. BB is planning to stock 170 Blu-ray titles they said.
2. Selling disks just requires that you have the current titles. BestBuy is just selling the new titles (with a few selected catalogers) and is not making an effort to carry the kind of selection that you need for rental.

My guess is that stores like Bestbuy will continue to carry both formats. If Bestbuy (or Target for example) drops one format, this would be truly significant.

You think Target would be significant in terms of its market share as a CE store? I don't know if I agree with that, Best Buy would be very significant.. but target might be only significant in that it would continue a chain reaction started by Blockbuster.

I think dropping HD-DVD will do more harm to Bestbuy than help, I support both formats, but I do not support companies that do not give both an equal shake.

You are not very smart. Who want both formats? As a consummer, I don't care which format will win, I ALWAYS want only one so I will a lot more options on the table: XBOX360 or PS3 (if they use the same format: HD DVD or BD), manufactures will build better players (since they don't have to choose) and cheaper (mass produce), blank media will be cheaper too...

This thread is not saying Best Buy is definitely going Blu-Ray Exclusive

No, I guess it isn't... since it's just... made up.

Title is misleading and inflammatory, IMO. I thought there might at least be the slightest smidgen of basis here, even if just Beatboy saying his insider told him so. If I had known it was pure fantasy driven speculation, I'd have skipped it.

Downloads are for a demographic that could care less about quality as long as its free.

Bingo.... we have a winner!

The demographic for downloads is a pimply faced, knit-cap wearing, Toyota Prius driving, cheap-ass. Give them their garbage downloads, I'll take optical media and the QUALITY that is associated with them.

Thanks :cool:

Bingo.... we have a winner!

The demographic for downloads is a pimply faced, knit-cap wearing, Toyota Prius driving, cheap-ass. Give them their garbage downloads, I'll take optical media and the QUALITY that is associated with them.

Thanks :cool:

What's wrong with good gas mileage? lol

There was a governor of some state who went on this rant and it kinda reminds of what you just said. He said something along the lines of "Those liberal american hating, coffee drinking, automobile driving, people who think gays should have rights, etc etc etc" It was pretty funny. Well completely off topic... anyways

Why would I want to limit the way I get movies? The 720p movie downloads on XBox look very nice and definitely aren't for "cheap-ass" people since they cost $5 per movie.

I have downloaded movie trailers in 720P option on the PS3 and their is no doubt it is "HD-Lite" when compared with Blu-Ray disk at 1080P.

Oh, so YOU are the new master of what is and isn't HD? Someone needs to tell the powers that be that because you downloaded a couple of movie trailers, all can be changed now. We can wipe 720p off the HD list.


So on top of the $60 a year X-box live gold package they are charge $6 for a new release movie in 720P that can not be saved and is a 24hr rental according to this article.

Here's a thought. Don't throw out numbers if you don't know what is going on.

1) XBL is not $60 a year, it's $50 a year.

2) The XBL gold subscription IS NOT REQUIRED TO RENT MOVIES.

3) The movies are rentals. You just said it yourself. So all that pricing structure which I already know about because.........well I've been renting movies on it........is geared for............wait for it.....................RENTALS.


Meanwhile I am paying $15 dollars a month from Netflix and avg. 10 movies a month in 1080P and lossless sound. If the PS3 ever offered something like this I would say the same thing,

1) Yay for Netflix. Wait in the queue for the movie to come available...........wait for movie to get to you.........watch movie..............get up and go to the mailbox..........send movie back...........wait for next movie. Don't get me wrong, Netflix is great. But in the time you waited for your movie to get there, I watched 5-6.

2) You better get those vocal chords ready, because downloadable movies are coming for the PS3. And guess what, despite what YOU think about it, people are going to rent them just like they do on XBL.


The only thing I can't understand is I thought everyone on this forum was an A/V enthusiast and cared about quality? MP3s and HD-Downloads in 720P that don't have lossless sound are not quality.

Please be sure to add "IMHO" whenever you say that, because......well, that's your opinion. And as you might find even here on this enthousiast site, there are people that disagree with you.

Then again, you never watched a movie on XBVM as you've stated before. So your opinion, not backed by any experience, really has no merit.

Don't get me wrong I don't care is Microsoft and Sony would do this on the side, but when we start having people talking about it replacing Optical media all together is when I would start to worry as an enthusiast.

Well, you were wrong about it in the first place being immediate. But you better start hording your precious discs and build yourself an underground bunker. The time for it will come. Not in the next few years, but it's inevitable.

The demographic for downloads is a pimply faced, knit-cap wearing, Toyota Prius driving, cheap-ass.

Wow, you like paying 4 bucks a gallon for gas? Damn. Maybe you're the problem with the gas prices in this country.

So gee, I have no pimples, don't wear a knit-cap, and I drive a Ford. So much for your demographic. :cool:

with console, xbl, hd addon and rental fees this is coming close to ps3 cost of ownership w/o hddvd drive. over 4 years, $200 in membership fees.

I have downloaded movie trailers in 720P option on the PS3 and their is no doubt it is "HD-Lite" when compared with Blu-Ray disk at 1080P. I am watching on a 1080P projector and 106" screen so maybe the difference is more noticeable to me. Here is the pricing structure for the HD-Downloads on X-box live.

# HD TV Episodes -- 240 points ($3)
# SD TV Episodes -- 160 points ($2)
# HD Movies -- 480 points ($6)
# SD Movies -- 320 points ($4)
# Classic HD Movies -- 360 points ($4.50)
# Classic SD Movies -- 240 points ($3)

So on top of the $60 a year X-box live gold package they are charge $6 for a new release movie in 720P that can not be saved and is a 24hr rental according to this article. http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2064077,00.asp
Meanwhile I am paying $15 dollars a month from Netflix and avg. 10 movies a month in 1080P and lossless sound. If the PS3 ever offered something like this I would say the same thing, I am not going to pay more for garbage, when I can pay less for quality. The only thing I can't understand is I thought everyone on this forum was an A/V enthusiast and cared about quality? MP3s and HD-Downloads in 720P that don't have lossless sound are not quality. Don't get me wrong I don't care is Microsoft and Sony would do this on the side, but when we start having people talking about it replacing Optical media all together is when I would start to worry as an enthusiast.

1. ive compared 720p content on the ps3 and 360 on my friends 1080p tv and to me the 360 720p content looked better than the ps3's content. MS 720p content in fact looked as good as the ps3's 1080p trailers (but i think alot of what we saw was bit starved ps3 trailers as we saw some macroblocking that doesnt exist on xbox trailers). there was very little differences that we could see and really it was a wash between ps3's 1080p trailers compared to xbox's 720p content (ps3 via hdmi and 360 via component).

2. and that pricing scheme is right now.... i fully expect ms to improve it and offer a netflix style and maybe download option for keeps. you have to remember ms has only been at this for ~8 months. they have made tons of progress for not even being a year old imo. if universal comes they will have more studio support than hd-dvd does (since lionsgate does 360). But I do think the prices are too high to really become a player but I think MS did it on purpose so they could have some extra time to get the server capacity in place before they start playing with pricing (again due to the service not even being a year old yet)

3. as stated you do no have to subscribe to gold to get access to the content.... its available to the silver subscribers which is free.

It seems like with Microsoft giving Netflix's CEO/founder Reed Hastings a spot on their BOD might have awaken Blockbuster and others who have a bone in this war. It is clear to most by now that the only intent Microsoft has in this war is to confuse and aggravate the consumer about next generation optical format, with its goal of mass adoption inferior quality HD-lite downloads. This would not help Blockbuster in anyway, and at the same time it will not help the Best Buys,Circuit Citys, Consumer Electronic companies. Etc. of the world when it comes to selling next generation optical media and equipment. I don't understand why BDA has not been pushing this point further and why on earth would Best Buy or any other company that would not gain a revenue stream from downloads and lose a huge revenue stream (optical Media,CE devices,etc.) be supporting HD-DVD at this point? So I guess my final question is do you think other companies like Blockbuster are starting to realize the negative impact on current and future business that HD-DVD is having? This thread is not saying Best Buy is definitely going Blu-Ray Exclusive, but rather does some of the above facts sway them like it did Blockbuster?What speculation. I can't believe AVS allows a thread like this to exist.

I hope BB goes Blu too ;)

Oh, so YOU are the new master of what is and isn't HD? Someone needs to tell the powers that be that because you downloaded a couple of movie trailers, all can be changed now. We can wipe 720p off the HD list.




Here's a thought. Don't throw out numbers if you don't know what is going on.

1) XBL is not $60 a year, it's $50 a year.

2) The XBL gold subscription IS NOT REQUIRED TO RENT MOVIES.

3) The movies are rentals. You just said it yourself. So all that pricing structure which I already know about because.........well I've been renting movies on it........is geared for............wait for it.....................RENTALS.




1) Yay for Netflix. Wait in the queue for the movie to come available...........wait for movie to get to you.........watch movie..............get up and go to the mailbox..........send movie back...........wait for next movie. Don't get me wrong, Netflix is great. But in the time you waited for your movie to get there, I watched 5-6.

2) You better get those vocal chords ready, because downloadable movies are coming for the PS3. And guess what, despite what YOU think about it, people are going to rent them just like they do on XBL.




Please be sure to add "IMHO" whenever you say that, because......well, that's your opinion. And as you might find even here on this enthousiast site, there are people that disagree with you.

Then again, you never watched a movie on XBVM as you've stated before. So your opinion, not backed by any experience, really has no merit.



Well, you were wrong about it in the first place being immediate. But you better start hording your precious discs and build yourself an underground bunker. The time for it will come. Not in the next few years, but it's inevitable.

What a perfect smackdown post. makeusleep will probably make a new username after this

1) Yay for Netflix. Wait in the queue for the movie to come available...........wait for movie to get to you.........watch movie..............get up and go to the mailbox..........send movie back...........wait for next movie. Don't get me wrong, Netflix is great. But in the time you waited for your movie to get there, I watched 5-6.

Are you serious? You watch 5-6 movies in two days? Wow!! I guess getting off that couch and to the mailbox is a big task! :)



Well, you were wrong about it in the first place being immediate. But you better start hording your precious discs and build yourself an underground bunker. The time for it will come. Not in the next few years, but it's inevitable.

Wanna bet? Bill Gates will be dead before the infrastructure for that type of bandwidth at cheap cost exist. Let me know when I can download 10 movies/month at 1080P/lossless audio with the same quality I get from Bluray for $15 bucks a month. Until then I guess I will just have to walk to my mailbox and limit myself to watching 2-3 movies a week :eek: Damn.. I guess that means more time for going to the club and lake mead hunting strippers ;) I am really depressed now :rolleyes:

I think dropping HD-DVD will do more harm to Bestbuy than help, I support both formats, but I do not support companies that do not give both an equal shake.

Would you consider it an equal shake, if they gave both formats a chance, and then dropped the format that sold less?

What would be the problem if they dropped one of the formats. Stores often drop products based on actual sales.

What a perfect smackdown post. makeusleep will probably make a new username after this

maybe I am wrong here, but MichealMullis doesnt sound like he is supporting BD or HD-DVD.

He is supporting 720p downloads on xbox live.

I am pretty sure that you and myself are both against HD-lite. I know I would be saddened if both 1080p24 formats failed, and the only thing left were HD-lite downloads.

If Sony Pictures were smart they should be looking at the future of downloadable media as well. Wouldn't you agree?

They are. The PlayStationStore on the PS3 is supposed to offer downloads by the end of the year.

Once the PS3 comes down in price in years to come, it could be a major win for them, as it will be capable of Blu-Ray and HD Downloads.

i support the 720p downloads on xbox live too if they fix their few remaining issues (get more content and more pricing options).... and i like it because it will be potentially easier to use than physical discs while still maintaining good quality content and to me the experince of obtaining content is almost as important as the actual content.

if download services run like we all think they will there are many advantages they have over the rent model and even the online rent model (where we have seen the real growth the past few years). things like trying to find a movie in stock, waiting for snail mail to deliver movies back and forth, companies not sending you movies in the order of your queue, movies marked as "short or long waits".

I dont think both formats will fail and you will see one of the 1080p formats atleast win but ive said this from the beginning that both will ultimately fail compared to dvd in the mass market. people have to have hdtv before adopting either format and by the time hdtv's take over let alone 1080p tv's the next "big thing" will be upon us. Not to mention there are so many more ways to consume content these days (live marketplace, itunes, netflix online, cable&dbs vod). all of these services were not around when the dvd war was going on and they will all take a small portion of the market (and combined will take a good percentage of the total movie market)

They are. The PlayStationStore on the PS3 is supposed to offer downloads by the end of the year.

Once the PS3 comes down in price in years to come, it could be a major win for them, as it will be capable of Blu-Ray and HD Downloads.

initially i believed them (and i think they will do something) but i question that sony has the same need/want to use their marketplace to match what live has. simply because they put the bluray into the ps3 for a reason and it was to help them win the format war. if they deliver download movies on the ps3 they are negating the need for the bluray and ultimately hurting that business.

i still think they are going to do something but i question that they have the same intentions as what live has in store (because ms doesn't have a hd-dvd player forced into the device they have more of a need/reason to provide this content)

plus one thing i think is going to hurt sony in the long run with other studios is the potential security issues since you can easily put content on external drives and run linux directly on the ps3. one thing i have been pretty surprised with is the fact that i havent seen anything about people getting live marketplace content off the 360 hard drive and removing the drm (not saying it wont be eventually hacked but i would have thought by now there would be a workaround). thats one area imo ms has been able to coax the movie studios into producing content for marketplace (same thing that got fox and the others on bluray who wanted extra protection for their content)

initially i believed them (and i think they will do something) but i question that sony has the same need/want to use their marketplace to match what live has. simply because they put the bluray into the ps3 for a reason and it was to help them win the format war. if they deliver download movies on the ps3 they are negating the need for the bluray and ultimately hurting that business. It's very obvious to me contents on Blu-ray and contents on download are different.

Sometimes portability is important too, and I don't want to dedicate a part of my HDD for old movies.

maybe I am wrong here, but MichealMullis doesnt sound like he is supporting BD or HD-DVD.

Yes, you are wrong. I support HD DVD. Have the HD DVD player, own The Matrix Collection and all.

And Pssssst, it's Michael and there's no space between that and my last name. ;)


He is supporting 720p downloads on xbox live.

AND I support downloads on Xbox Live. I realize the very thought of supporting multiple formats seems to come as a shock to most people these days


I am pretty sure that you and myself are both against HD-lite. I know I would be saddened if both 1080p24 formats failed, and the only thing left were HD-lite downloads.

I still find it hilarious that a couple of you on the extreme side of fanaticism have now deemed 720p as some sort of non-HD resolution. It's really hard to take you seriously when you do that.

And since things seem to fly over makeussleep's head, there's no sense in responding to him again. Apparently the idea of convienence doesn't quite grab him.

Yes, you are wrong. I support HD DVD. Have the HD DVD player, own The Matrix Collection and all.

And Pssssst, it's Michael and there's no space between that and my last name. ;)




AND I support downloads on Xbox Live. I realize the very thought of supporting multiple formats seems to come as a shock to most people these days




I still find it hilarious that a couple of you on the extreme side of fanaticism have now deemed 720p as some sort of non-HD resolution. It's really hard to take you seriously when you do that.

And since things seem to fly over makeussleep's head, there's no sense in responding to him again. Apparently the idea of convienence doesn't quite grab him.



Are you seriously comparing 1280x720 to 1920x1080 and saying one has even remotely the same number of pixels as the other? 720p was for a time when 1080i was as good as 1080 could get. In this day and age when 1080p is getting pretty affordable, there really is no use for 720p any longer except to play games on. Certainly, 1080p60 can do the job for sports as well or better than 720p can. Movies have always looked superior on 1080i than 720p as an overall rule and that will not change because you're watching them on your Xbox 360.

HD Lite may have been invented as a term for the supposed EDTV resolutions and more, but I think 720p being the bottom rung of HDTV is close enough to HD Lite for my tastes.

Are people buying all these 1080p sets to watch 720p movies on their Xbox? Certainly, they'll think they look great because they won't have given the disc alternatives that run at full 1080p a shot. Those are the only people who would think 720p even remotely compares when it comes complete with a low bitrate Dolby digital audio track.

Not even Dolby Digital+? Let alone lossless...

Are you seriously comparing 1280x720 to 1920x1080 and saying one has even remotely the same number of pixels as the other? 720p was for a time when 1080i was as good as 1080 could get. In this day and age when 1080p is getting pretty affordable, there really is no use for 720p any longer except to play games on. Certainly, 1080p60 can do the job for sports as well or better than 720p can. Movies have always looked superior on 1080i than 720p as an overall rule and that will not change because you're watching them on your Xbox 360.

HD Lite may have been invented as a term for the supposed EDTV resolutions and more, but I think 720p being the bottom rung of HDTV is close enough to HD Lite for my tastes.

Are people buying all these 1080p sets to watch 720p movies on their Xbox? Certainly, they'll think they look great because they won't have given the disc alternatives that run at full 1080p a shot. Those are the only people who would think 720p even remotely compares when it comes complete with a low bitrate Dolby digital audio track.

Not even Dolby Digital+? Let alone lossless...

Please... many of us here have 720p displays such as myself. Why would I want to waste extra $$ downloading larger 1080p movies when I can't even fully exploit it? Many TV shows are broadcast in 720p like House and 24. Calling 720p "HDLite" is pretty ridiculous. Many people don't buy 1080p displays most LCD displays are still 720p.

...The only thing I can't understand is I thought everyone on this forum was an A/V enthusiast and cared about quality? MP3s and HD-Downloads in 720P that don't have lossless sound are not quality. Don't get me wrong I don't care is Microsoft and Sony would do this on the side, but when we start having people talking about it replacing Optical media all together is when I would start to worry as an enthusiast.You can buy lossless 5.1 multichannel music via downloads from Music Giants since last winter. No quality loss over DVD-A on optical disc. Can be moved to a different storage location -- it just "phones home" once after being moved. Can be served on a home network. Optical disc (CD, DVD-A, SACD) is now dead for buying music for me. YMMV

IMO movie distribution to the home over the Internet is still 5 years aways at least due to infrastructure bandwidth needs for "the last mile".

Are you seriously comparing 1280x720 to 1920x1080 and saying one has even remotely the same number of pixels as the other? 720p was for a time when 1080i was as good as 1080 could get. In this day and age when 1080p is getting pretty affordable, there really is no use for 720p any longer except to play games on. Certainly, 1080p60 can do the job for sports as well or better than 720p can. Movies have always looked superior on 1080i than 720p as an overall rule and that will not change because you're watching them on your Xbox 360.

HD Lite may have been invented as a term for the supposed EDTV resolutions and more, but I think 720p being the bottom rung of HDTV is close enough to HD Lite for my tastes.

Are people buying all these 1080p sets to watch 720p movies on their Xbox? Certainly, they'll think they look great because they won't have given the disc alternatives that run at full 1080p a shot. Those are the only people who would think 720p even remotely compares when it comes complete with a low bitrate Dolby digital audio track.

Not even Dolby Digital+? Let alone lossless...

and there is so much content in 1080p besides hd-dvd/bluray.... when sat/cable go 1080p it will start to make a difference imo.

and are you seriously comparing pixel count to assume one is going to be better than the other? there is a hell of a lot more to a good picture than pixel count. just look at the initial blurays that were mpeg2. if hd-dvd wasnt around doing vc1 and blowing them out of the water in the quality dept people would never have known and the push for bluray to adpot mpeg4 would still be "in progress". very likely had there not been 2 formats we would still have mpeg 2 releases for a majority of blurays.

you have to remember something here.... WE ARE NOT MASS MARKET. we never have been and never will be. dvd is good enough for a majority of the mass market and 720p will be good enough when they jump to HD (you might not like it but its the truth). Im not saying there will be those mass market folks who decide 1080p matters but other than the eliteists people dont care as long as they can watch their movies. just look at the many dvd's released that look like complete crap because they pack so much extras on the discs yet people dont really care.

Are you seriously comparing 1280x720 to 1920x1080 and saying one has even remotely the same number of pixels as the other? 720p was for a time when 1080i was as good as 1080 could get. In this day and age when 1080p is getting pretty affordable, there really is no use for 720p any longer except to play games on. Certainly, 1080p60 can do the job for sports as well or better than 720p can. Movies have always looked superior on 1080i than 720p as an overall rule and that will not change because you're watching them on your Xbox 360.

HD Lite may have been invented as a term for the supposed EDTV resolutions and more, but I think 720p being the bottom rung of HDTV is close enough to HD Lite for my tastes.

Are people buying all these 1080p sets to watch 720p movies on their Xbox? Certainly, they'll think they look great because they won't have given the disc alternatives that run at full 1080p a shot. Those are the only people who would think 720p even remotely compares when it comes complete with a low bitrate Dolby digital audio track.

Not even Dolby Digital+? Let alone lossless...

Wrong again. HD Lite was coined and invented by a bunch of people in the Satellite HDTV part of AVS who complain, rightly so, about DirecTV (and now Dish Network) offering their HD feeds with massive bitstarvation, and a downrezzing of the resolution it was natively sent to them by the source. They take a 1080i source, and frankenstein it into something that fits their bandwidth. Right or wrong, that's not true HD, and that's where "HD Lite" comes from.

Again only the fanatic Blu-ray folk who dont understand, as jagouar already mentions, that the majority of HDTV owners don't own 1080p TV's (mine is only 1080i at that), who play everything at either 720p or 1080i, don't give a rats behind about 1080p or the difference between a Blu-ray/HD DVD movie and an HD download on Xbox Live.

And the truth of the matter is that whether you like it or not, 720p is an HD resolution. Your saying otherwise doesn't stop the ATSC from recognizing it as the definition of HDTV. Sorry, but it is. And movies on XBL look great. I'm still guessing you guys have never watched one, and are speaking basically from nothing.

Come back and preach to me when no one else is broadcasting in 720p. I am guessing for you and the rest of fanatics that means no ABC, ESPN, ESPN2, or FOX. Wait, doesn't Fox support Blu-ray? Why would they broadcast their network TV stations in........GASP.......HD LITE??????? :rolleyes:

You are not very smart. Who want both formats? As a consummer, I don't care which format will win, I ALWAYS want only one so I will a lot more options on the table: XBOX360 or PS3 (if they use the same format: HD DVD or BD), manufactures will build better players (since they don't have to choose) and cheaper (mass produce), blank media will be cheaper too...

You are calling someone out for not being smart? Well, take a look in the mirror junior and listen to why it's in Best Buy's interest in keeping both media formats.

They want the traffic. If I'm an HD DVD buyer and Best Buy doesn't have them, I won't go there to get them. I'll go to a competitor. Then, once in the store, I'm subject to impulse or accessory purchasing which makes the company more money than the discs or the players themselves. THAT is why companies will continue to stock the media, so someone buys a power strip or a cable, or a CD along with their other purchase.

Also, do you honestly think that the "format war" has hurt consumers up to this point? HD-DVD players are under $250, and the most recent BD players announced are MSRPing for HALF of what was initially intended. How can you not see this?

While there are other factors to making a great picture, all other factors being the same 1080p provides a better picture than 720p. Crappy transfers can happen at any resolution and do happen at any resolution.

After experiencing Blu-ray and HD-DVD, Xbox Live 720p downloads do feel like HD Lite, not just due to lower resolution but lower quality as well, more artifacts and blocking, lower sound quality.

You can buy lossless 5.1 multichannel music via downloads from Music Giants since last winter. No quality loss over DVD-A on optical disc. Can be moved to a different storage location -- it just "phones home" once after being moved. Can be served on a home network. Optical disc (CD, DVD-A, SACD) is now dead for buying music for me. YMMV

IMO movie distribution to the home over the Internet is still 5 years aways at least due to infrastructure bandwidth needs for "the last mile".

Who wants 5.1 multichannel music downloads? I'm still "old school" and listen exclusively to 2 channel music, unless there's a music DVD I like. There aren't many high quality 2 channel music sites.

Who wants 5.1 multichannel music downloads? I'm still "old school" and listen exclusively to 2 channel music, unless there's a music DVD I like. There aren't many high quality 2 channel music sites.Sorry, I should have been more clear. MusicGiants typically offers both 2 channel stereo and 5.1 chan (Surround) on their offerings that have Surround. They have a very large selection of lossless (yet compressed with WMA) 2 chan only music.

Sure there are not a large number of 5.1 channel music titles yet -- mainly just the standard fare DSOTM, Yes, etc. This is getting OT.

Are you seriously comparing 1280x720 to 1920x1080 and saying one has even remotely the same number of pixels as the other? 720p was for a time when 1080i was as good as 1080 could get. In this day and age when 1080p is getting pretty affordable, there really is no use for 720p any longer except to play games on. Certainly, 1080p60 can do the job for sports as well or better than 720p can. Movies have always looked superior on 1080i than 720p as an overall rule and that will not change because you're watching them on your Xbox 360.

HD Lite may have been invented as a term for the supposed EDTV resolutions and more, but I think 720p being the bottom rung of HDTV is close enough to HD Lite for my tastes.

Are people buying all these 1080p sets to watch 720p movies on their Xbox? Certainly, they'll think they look great because they won't have given the disc alternatives that run at full 1080p a shot. Those are the only people who would think 720p even remotely compares when it comes complete with a low bitrate Dolby digital audio track.

Not even Dolby Digital+? Let alone lossless...
Completely & utterly out of touch. HDTV is just now nudging it's way into mainstream.............the majority of sets sold are? (& will be for quite some time) Exactly, 720p sets will dominate the near future. Why? Simple, that's the budget sets that are bringing in the new owners.

While there are other factors to making a great picture, all other factors being the same 1080p provides a better picture than 720p. Crappy transfers can happen at any resolution and do happen at any resolution.

After experiencing Blu-ray and HD-DVD, Xbox Live 720p downloads do feel like HD Lite, not just due to lower resolution but lower quality as well, more artifacts and blocking, lower sound quality.

In my own tests the xbox downloads are not as good as hd-dvd and bluray (i dont dispute that) but to put a number on my impressions its ~92-93% (better than 90 but not quite 95) of the quality (if the best hd-dvd/bluray is 100%). And in no way near what hdlite was. There is very little macroblocking in the downloads that Ive seen (and thats one of the most impressive things is how little macroblocking there is considering the file size differences). I really think anybody who does not even have a 1080p tv will tell any difference at all between the services and alot more hdtv's are not 1080p than are and will be like that for the next few years atleast.

But to me the quality is good enough if they have a better system to rent movies (netflix) and dont have the same problems they face I will have no problem getting rid of hd-dvd and bluray for my rent purposes and just buy the few movies I watch multiple times and have live marketplace essentially replace my blockbuster online account which i use to rent the majority of my movies)

In my own tests the xbox downloads are not as good as hd-dvd and bluray but to put a number of my impressions its 92-93% (better than 90 but not quite 95) of the quality (if the best hd-dvd/bluray is 100%). And in no way near what hdlite was. There is very little macroblocking in the downloads that Ive seen (and thats one of the most impressive things is how little macroblocking there is considering the file size differences). I really think anybody who does not even have a 1080p tv will tell any difference at all between the services and alot more hdtv's are not 1080p than are and will be like that for the next few years atleast.

I haven't seen any blocking in any of the 720p movies I've downloaded. In The Fountain I saw some banding on the opening scene but that is the extent of the problems.

I wouldn't score the % nearly as high from my experience, maybe 75% for a title like V for Vendetta or Matrix, both of which had macroblocking and other artifacts as well as banding. Curious what would you personally score the sound compared to lossless surround?

I wouldn't score the % nearly as high from my experience, maybe 75% for a title like V for Vendetta or Matrix, both of which had macroblocking and other artifacts as well as banding. Curious what would you personally score the sound compared to lossless surround?

I dont have true lossless sound on the hd-dvd (360 addon using dts) or bluray (ps3) and no truehd receiver yet. Id put the sound quality lower but not a whole lot... 89% or so. just short of 90%.

Just wondering if you have tried any of the more recent flicks.... v for vendetta was one of the first hd movies if i am remembering right and I dont remember the matrix ever being HD on the marketplace (except those clips to promote the hd-dvd). Either way you might have a better experince using some of the more recent content. I would think they would improve things slightly over time.

I would also be interested in hearing other peoples impressions of the live service compared to others from a quality standpoint. (might even be cool to get a new forum just for this type of discussion since this topic has had a ton of discussion lately and it is a "HD format" like bluray/hd-dvd)

I think dropping HD-DVD will do more harm to Bestbuy than help, I support both formats, but I do not support companies that do not give both an equal shake.

What about previous format wars? Do you keep track of who first stopped selling Beta or DVD-Audio sections, etc., and stay away from those companies?

I dont have true lossless sound on the hd-dvd (360 addon using dts) or bluray (ps3) and no truehd receiver yet. Id put the sound quality lower but not a whole lot... 89% or so. just short of 90%.

Just wondering if you have tried any of the more recent flicks.... v for vendetta was one of the first hd movies if i am remembering right and I dont remember the matrix ever being HD on the marketplace (except those clips to promote the hd-dvd). Either way you might have a better experince using some of the more recent content. I would think they would improve things slightly over time.

I would also be interested in hearing other peoples impressions of the live service compared to others from a quality standpoint. (might even be cool to get a new forum just for this type of discussion since this topic has had a ton of discussion lately and it is a "HD format" like bluray/hd-dvd)

Nope, haven't tried anything recently. Honestly the quality isn't there and it just takes too long to download for my liking. If I need instant for convenience I just use Comcast On Demand now which still isn't the best but that is when convenience takes over for when we don't plan ahead. I'm thinking of signing up for Netflix or Blockbuster online to get more content as my local BB doesn't carry either format and Hollywood Video has a limited selection even if growing slowly there, again that is more about planning ahead.

Oh, so YOU are the new master of what is and isn't HD? Someone needs to tell the powers that be that because you downloaded a couple of movie trailers, all can be changed now. We can wipe 720p off the HD list.




Here's a thought. Don't throw out numbers if you don't know what is going on.

1) XBL is not $60 a year, it's $50 a year.

2) The XBL gold subscription IS NOT REQUIRED TO RENT MOVIES.

3) The movies are rentals. You just said it yourself. So all that pricing structure which I already know about because.........well I've been renting movies on it........is geared for............wait for it.....................RENTALS.




1) Yay for Netflix. Wait in the queue for the movie to come available...........wait for movie to get to you.........watch movie..............get up and go to the mailbox..........send movie back...........wait for next movie. Don't get me wrong, Netflix is great. But in the time you waited for your movie to get there, I watched 5-6.

2) You better get those vocal chords ready, because downloadable movies are coming for the PS3. And guess what, despite what YOU think about it, people are going to rent them just like they do on XBL.




Please be sure to add "IMHO" whenever you say that, because......well, that's your opinion. And as you might find even here on this enthousiast site, there are people that disagree with you.

Then again, you never watched a movie on XBVM as you've stated before. So your opinion, not backed by any experience, really has no merit.



Well, you were wrong about it in the first place being immediate. But you better start hording your precious discs and build yourself an underground bunker. The time for it will come. Not in the next few years, but it's inevitable.

I was pointing out that this rant, that MichealHD-DVD is raving about, works against BD and HD-DVD.

Also 1080p24 is a medium that both HD-DVD and BD use for storage. 30/36 bit color is also something that is used on BD(not sure if its there for HD-DVD).

Supporting two formats is one thing. However, in this case, you are clearly NOT supporting two formats. you are CLEARLY blasting optical media-in general, in favor of low res, lossy audio downloads.

- Based on your post above alone, as I dont keep a record of all your other posts.

I fail to see why people are so panicky about online-distribution. You're talking about a format that MIGHT be available in TEN YEARS.

Know what else might be available in ten years? Flying cars.

When a company says something is ten years away, its more like a statement of desire than a statement of fact.

Perhaps the bandwidth will be available in ten years to support this style of distribution. Perhaps it won't. Worrying about it is pointless, though.

If the quality is low, do you think it will suceed? Probably not!

Right now, 720p online-distribution is workable. Think about it, though -- WHO IS IT AIMED AT? Its aimed at people who want something better than DVD but don't want or need HD-DVD or Blu-Ray (or people avoiding the format war). The online-distribution approach solves a right-now-problem ("how can I get better quality than DVD, without getting off my ass to go to a blockbuster and stand in line?").

"If the quality is low, do you think it will suceed? Probably not!"

iTunes disagrees

"If the quality is low, do you think it will suceed? Probably not!"

iTunes disagrees

I don't think thats a reasonable statement. The quality of tracks available from iTunes is fine. When it comes to audio, the difference between lossless and lossy isn't that significant -- 95% of consumers likely don't care. The other 5% are AVS forum members.

I was pointing out that this rant, that MichealHD-DVD is raving about, works against BD and HD-DVD.

Also 1080p24 is a medium that both HD-DVD and BD use for storage. 30/36 bit color is also something that is used on BD(not sure if its there for HD-DVD).

Supporting two formats is one thing. However, in this case, you are clearly NOT supporting two formats. you are CLEARLY blasting optical media-in general, in favor of low res, lossy audio downloads.

- Based on your post above alone, as I dont keep a record of all your other posts.

No it doesn't. At the very least it helps HD DVD because XBox live owners can download 720p movies, see how good they look and then they can think "hmm I wonder how much better HD DVDs look @ 1080p"

I don't think thats a reasonable statement. The quality of tracks available from iTunes is fine. When it comes to audio, the difference between lossless and lossy isn't that significant -- 95% of consumers likely don't care. The other 5% are AVS forum members.

I think you mean the other 0.05% :p

If people here had there way and all HD DVD and Blu-Ray players had HDMI 1.3, 7.1 analog outputs, etc then that would prolong the amount of time people would wait to enter the HD arena due to the inflated cost of all the players.

...

Also 1080p24 is a medium that both HD-DVD and BD use for storage. 30/36 bit color is also something that is used on BD(not sure if its there for HD-DVD).

....



As far as I now both formats are limited to 8 bit color.


Frank

I wouldn't score the % nearly as high from my experience, maybe 75% for a title like V for Vendetta or Matrix, both of which had macroblocking and other artifacts as well as banding. Curious what would you personally score the sound compared to lossless surround?

From my seating distance, I find the video is very good - very close to what we get from the optical disc (bear in mind I have a 720P projector). However, The difference in audio can be significant.

Originally Posted by briankmonkey
"If the quality is low, do you think it will suceed? Probably not!"

iTunes disagrees
I don't think thats a reasonable statement. The quality of tracks available from iTunes is fine. When it comes to audio, the difference between lossless and lossy isn't that significant -- 95% of consumers likely don't care. The other 5% are AVS forum members.

I'll just agree to disagree. It really depends on what your standards are. To me the difference between a SACD and iTunes download is huge, difference between Itunes download and CD is still signficant as well.

I see it as the average iTune consumer not caring about the quality being low. it is good enough for them obviously (similar to many sticking to DVD's instead of HD). Hence low quality is fine with them as convenience is taking precedence. Also the ability to buy 1 song you want for $.99 versus an album helps as well I'm sure, I certainly have bought a few. I do hope the iTunes + option appears on more songs I've purchased, so far only one of them.

The difference between DD and DD+ (1.5m)is something that I notice. I can't really notice the lossless over DD+.

I fail to see why people are so panicky about online-distribution. You're talking about a format that MIGHT be available in TEN YEARS.
.
Many of us already rent HD online through XBL.

I'll just agree to disagree. It really depends on what your standards are. To me the difference between a SACD and iTunes download is huge, difference between Itunes download and CD is still signficant as well.

I see it as the average iTune consumer not caring about the quality being low. it is good enough for them obviously (similar to many sticking to DVD's instead of HD). Hence low quality is fine with them as convenience is taking precedence. Also the ability to buy 1 song you want for $.99 versus an album helps as well I'm sure, I certainly have bought a few. I do hope the iTunes + option appears on more songs I've purchased, so far only one of them.
Listening to music has changed. It used to be, you'd tune your amps and speakers to the characteristics of the room, and you'd sit in the sweet spot and you'd be able to tell all the subtleties of the performance.

Nowadays, people stick a tiny earphone in their ear. If you really fed the mp3s to your audio gear and sit down in the sweet spot, you'd be able to tell the 128kbps mp3s or wmas don't sound very good, but nowadays, most people won't care while they walk around.

Movies you have to sit down and watch, there's no real sustainable market for portable video.

Many of us already rent HD online through XBL.

That is what I do. I even know a few people who use their 360 primarily for that function (watch more movies than plays games).

My breakdown of TV is; 60% gaming, 30% DVR HD TV, 10% rented movies on XBL. I am trying to watch less DVR, and the summer time is a good time to do so.

I'll just agree to disagree. It really depends on what your standards are. To me the difference between a SACD and iTunes download is huge, difference between Itunes download and CD is still signficant as well.

I see it as the average iTune consumer not caring about the quality being low. it is good enough for them obviously (similar to many sticking to DVD's instead of HD). Hence low quality is fine with them as convenience is taking precedence. Also the ability to buy 1 song you want for $.99 versus an album helps as well I'm sure, I certainly have bought a few. I do hope the iTunes + option appears on more songs I've purchased, so far only one of them.

I do think you are over estimating how bad things are... itunes in my little experince with it is not bad quality at all..... sure its not sacd or lossless but its not bad quality at all. Same thing with the hd service from ms. I think if there was a massive difference there is a point where people would not be willing to take convenience over quality but as long as its close convenience can make the service successful.

I am one of those who feels this way.... I will be willing to take slightly worse quality to improve the convenience and not have to deal with some of the things the mail rent places have (and i use them because i think they are going to be used more and more over time... ie the future). but stuff like the lead time to mail movies back and forth, stock issues and having to wait for certain flicks, getting your account throttled, physical disc issues (scratching). granted all of this is based on the assumption that we will see netflix style subscriptions for these services.

I went to a local Best Buy yesterday and they had five Blu-Ray player demos running (three in BB and two in Magnolia). They had zero HD DVD players set up. They also had eight feet of blu-ray discs and only four feet of HD DVD discs.

This is how it is in every Best Buy I've been to which is a good thing. It shows that Sony is throwing more money into the Blu-Ray format than TOshiba and Microsoft are...

Well with statments from Richard Doherty, Microsoft’s program manager for Media Entertainment Convergence such as this..

“I don’t know that [HD] will be delivered on an optical disc in five to 10 years,” he said, pointing to downloads and broadband delivery. “At Microsoft, we’d rather it wasn’t [on a disc].”
http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=10757


I would say that it is fairly obvious what their goal is. Do you disagree?

I think it´s clear that Microsoft wants us all to download the movies instead of buying the discs. Microsoft doesn´t make the hardware that plays it, so far they only have a hand in the VC-1 Codec, until HD-DVD dies, then they have nothing.

If Microsoft can drag out this war as long as possible they cost Sony money and make the market they want more interesting.

And then we get stuff like this to enjoy instead:

http://www.paraesthesia.com/blog/comments.php?id=1195_0_1_0_C

I love plastic discs and i would prefer not having to trust either Sony, Microsoft or anyone else with my movie collection.

Yay, I hope Best Buy goes Blu too. I am having a blast reading all the counter posts and theories on why their doomed format is going to survive. LOL

Looks like Anchor Bay was the next one to go Blu :)

Listening to music has changed. It used to be, you'd tune your amps and speakers to the characteristics of the room, and you'd sit in the sweet spot and you'd be able to tell all the subtleties of the performance.

Nowadays, people stick a tiny earphone in their ear. If you really fed the mp3s to your audio gear and sit down in the sweet spot, you'd be able to tell the 128kbps mp3s or wmas don't sound very good, but nowadays, most people won't care while they walk around.

Movies you have to sit down and watch, there's no real sustainable market for portable video.

Good points. I hate those tiny in the ear style headphones as well! :eek:

I was pointing out that this rant, that MichealHD-DVD is raving about, works against BD and HD-DVD.

No it doesn't. If that's the case, then renting movies from Blockbuster hurts Blu-ray. Renting from Netflix hurts HD DVD.

Unless you somehow see a difference between a download rental and a physical disc rental? I would love to see an explanation of this one.

For me, if I rent a movie and like it, if it's on HD DVD I'll go and buy it. Unless renting some physical disc gives you a different result?

Supporting two formats is one thing. However, in this case, you are clearly NOT supporting two formats. you are CLEARLY blasting optical media-in general, in favor of low res, lossy audio downloads.

I'm curious how you come to this conclusion considering not once have I mentioned anything of the sort, and even said I support and buy HD DVD's.

My blasting, or laughing out loud as it is, is simply of you radical folk who all of a sudden consider 720p "HD Lite", or now "Low Res". The rest of the HD world tends to disagree with you.

And many of us disagree with the "quality not being there". Those that say that simply haven't watched an HD movie on XBL. And really some have admitted to that. So it's worthless opinion without base. Sorry, it is what it is.

And as for the speed of download issue, I have simple 8 MB Comcast. It peaks at 10 sometimes, but not because I pay for it to. Happily Never After (a Lionsgate movie no less) was ready to play a little more than 5 minutes after I started the download. Movies on XBL will play while they continue to download.

Anyway, it's obvious that there are those who simply hate food they've never tried, and see fit to make sure no one else ever eats it. It's a shame, but what do you do?

My blasting, or laughing out loud as it is, is simply of you radical folk who all of a sudden consider 720p "HD Lite", or now "Low Res". The rest of the HD world tends to disagree with you.

Radical folk? Then we have a quote from you.. "The rest of the HD world tends to disagree with you" Yeah Okay.. You know what everyone in the HD world thinks.. :rolleyes: Did you ever think that people with 1080P displays and 60 inch and above viewing area might see a big difference between 720P vs 1080P?


And many of us disagree with the "quality not being there". Those that say that simply haven't watched an HD movie on XBL. And really some have admitted to that. So it's worthless opinion without base. Sorry, it is what it is.

Wow! Somebody sure does like to deal in absolutes... I find that a bit umm.. Radical :eek:

Originally Posted by Briankmonkey:

"While there are other factors to making a great picture, all other factors being the same 1080p provides a better picture than 720p. Crappy transfers can happen at any resolution and do happen at any resolution.

After experiencing Blu-ray and HD-DVD, Xbox Live 720p downloads do feel like HD Lite, not just due to lower resolution but lower quality as well, more artifacts and blocking, lower sound quality."

I haven't downloaded much HD content from XBL, except for one CSI episode...and, to me, it didn't look as good as the HD broadcast from CBS. Downloading is still a pain on XBL to me because of my small hard drive space.

No it doesn't. If that's the case, then renting movies from Blockbuster hurts Blu-ray. Renting from Netflix hurts HD DVD.

Unless you somehow see a difference between a download rental and a physical disc rental? I would love to see an explanation of this one.

For me, if I rent a movie and like it, if it's on HD DVD I'll go and buy it. Unless renting some physical disc gives you a different result?

Renting at Blockbuster/Netflix doesnt hurt BD or HD-DVD at all. People who are associated with the BDA/HD-DVD group receive royalties based on those rentals. The place that rents the software knows that more HD media is being rented and in turn stocks more HD media.

Renting HD-lite from MSFT for $6, does hurt HD-DVD and BD. The more people who perfer these lossy audio, highly compressed, lower resolution formats.... the less attractive the format with -Higher resolution, less compression, and lossless audio- becomes.

If you dont see that, then I dont know what to tell you.

Also, what is the rental charge from MSFT live? $6.00 each? You know whats cheaper than 3 of those HD rentals/downloads? Netflix or Blockbuster.

With netflix, you get 3 movies out at a time, rent 3, watch one-mail it, and by the third day.... you have a new movie to watch. You can watch 6 movies a week with very little hassle at that rate.

Not only that, you get to watch a movie in Full HD with much less compression and high resolution audio.

Even better, if you have Blockbusters plan, you can return in store and pick up a new movie right away.

Download HD = "Good enough"
BD & HD-DVD = real quality

Anyway, it's obvious that there are those who simply hate food they've never tried, and see fit to make sure no one else ever eats it. It's a shame, but what do you do?

If I go to a restaurant, order NY strip steak at NY Strip steak prices and get something that looks like and smells hamburger meat... I would kindly ask for a refund and leave.

I will try different foods, but I can tell the difference between a steak and hamburger meat.

Don't get me wrong I don't care is Microsoft and Sony would do this on the side, but when we start having people talking about it replacing Optical media all together is when I would start to worry as an enthusiast.

Completely, completely agree. I can't believe anyone would pay $3-$4.50 for a movie they can only use for a limited time. Eff that, I'll pay $20 for my own dang copy.

I guess that means more time for going to the club and lake mead hunting strippers ;) I am really depressed now :rolleyes:

Thanks for making me spit my water all over the monitor ROFL.

Completely, completely agree. I can't believe anyone would pay $3-$4.50 for a movie they can only use for a limited time. Eff that, I'll pay $20 for my own dang copy.

your own dang copy you will watch once and then will sit with the rest of your 200+ collection until the next format comes along and then its time to repeat the process. there is a very good reason the netflix and blockbuster online services are so popular these days in that many people have come to realize what i have. 95% of movies that i get are one time only views. Why spend 4x as much if you are going to watch it only once?

then again you only have 38 movies so far so i guess you just dont watch movies very much. i go through that many in 2 months.

your own dang copy you will watch once and then will sit with the rest of your 200+ collection until the next format comes along and then its time to repeat the process. there is a very good reason the netflix and blockbuster online services are so popular these days in that many people have come to realize what i have. 95% of movies that i get are one time only views. Why spend 4x as much if you are going to watch it only once?

then again you only have 38 movies so far so i guess you just dont watch movies very much. i go through that many in 2 months.

Actually you would be mistaken. It's called buying a house, buying new furniture, moving, getting a new job, and other real-life events that people on this board so frequently forget matter to Joe Consumer.

I like buying the movie, I like having my own copy of it, and I watch them more than once when I have the time. Plus I like to collect things, it's a hobby. Downloading content without providing a hybrid physical media solution is a pile of poppycock. Either let me rip 1080p content to a storage medium that can hold my entire library on a few disks, or forget it.

I'd never touch a movie off Live. What are they $6 for HD? I can get 6-8 1080P w/lossless sound for $20/month from Netflix while you will pay $36-$48 for 720P versions (if they had a good selection). I'd rather not give MS my money for substandard material.

Make them $.99 then I might lower my standards.

Wrong again. HD Lite was coined and invented by a bunch of people in the Satellite HDTV part of AVS who complain, rightly so, about DirecTV (and now Dish Network) offering their HD feeds with massive bitstarvation, and a downrezzing of the resolution it was natively sent to them by the source. They take a 1080i source, and frankenstein it into something that fits their bandwidth. Right or wrong, that's not true HD, and that's where "HD Lite" comes from.

Again only the fanatic Blu-ray folk who dont understand, as jagouar already mentions, that the majority of HDTV owners don't own 1080p TV's (mine is only 1080i at that), who play everything at either 720p or 1080i, don't give a rats behind about 1080p or the difference between a Blu-ray/HD DVD movie and an HD download on Xbox Live.

And the truth of the matter is that whether you like it or not, 720p is an HD resolution. Your saying otherwise doesn't stop the ATSC from recognizing it as the definition of HDTV. Sorry, but it is. And movies on XBL look great. I'm still guessing you guys have never watched one, and are speaking basically from nothing.

Come back and preach to me when no one else is broadcasting in 720p. I am guessing for you and the rest of fanatics that means no ABC, ESPN, ESPN2, or FOX. Wait, doesn't Fox support Blu-ray? Why would they broadcast their network TV stations in........GASP.......HD LITE??????? :rolleyes:


Are you actually trying to tell me that the term HD Lite was defined exclusively by AVSforum? Talk about out of touch. ;) You do know the term is used in other places besides this great forum, right? Hello? There's a whole world wide web out there beyond AVS and HD Lite is being used for other things in addition to your specific subforum. You may need to take a walk outside.

So you're saying BECAUSE TV does it, that makes it what we want for our movies? Is that what you're saying? Because I know a hell of a lot of channels still releasing in Pan and Scan. I guess we ought to do that, too, eh? No more releases in 16:9, no ANYTHING but what the majority can use. Oh, and let's not forget that Dolby Digital audio... nah, pointless, right? Most channels don't support it. Hell, now that I think about it, I think SDTV's dwarf entirely all HDTV's, even given the recent uptake. We should go back to 480p until there isn't an SDTV left because as long as it exists, its useful. We can just scale up, right?

Saying, "Well, it looks great, it doesn't matter!" is tantamount to J6P saying the same about their 32" SDTV. I guess by your logic, we don't need HDTV at all since that very same argument is what most people say about ANY high def, 720p HD Lite or not. We don't need any dolby because most people can't play it. I mean, do most have 5.1? All we really need is stereo. Hell, I figure we don't need "advanced features" on discs because most people don't have broadband fast enough to really use it. We don't need 720p downloads on Xbox 360's because more Xbox owners use it internet-less than do.

We're talking about the people that it does matter for. Bringing all the people that won't see a difference in a matter can be done until it reaches irrelevance. I show you the extension of this to show you how absurd your points are.

And you do realize that most 1080i sets look better running 1080p content than they do running 720p content. I'm sure you already know that. I'm sure you're aware that quite a few 1080i sets were sold back in the ancient times before 1080p's arrival.

You know, I'm not going to respond to everyone else's posts because they felt their 720p projector or TV's were being slighted. I will say this. I don't understand how ANYONE can profess to support a format that is inferior to the top end. That's like my professing no need for anything more than 480p because if you get far enough back, you can't tell the difference. It's shortsighted. 1080p is used because most consumers will EVENTUALLY use it. Why would you want your downloads of today to be 720p only to get 1080p sets and find the resolution less than optimal? It's the same reason you want lossless audio. Maybe you don't have it today, but you want it tomorrow for when you do have the capability.

I used to have a 720p projector and I went to a 1080p projector. There's a difference. I'm sorry you 720p peeps haven't gotten around to it yet. But eventually you will and you'll realize that we need 1080p now for the day when you do finally go 1080p. We don't need 720p in a 1080p-capable world. We don't need Dolby Digital DVD-level audio when some of us (and an increasing number thanks to lower cost DD+/DTS HD MA receivers) are capable of more. Sure, it's not the majority, but it'll be enough eventually. Just like HDTV wasn't necessary for a long time, but it is slowly becoming important.

More 720p sets sell now than 1080p. More SDTV's sold than HDTV's. More EDTV's sold than HDTV's for a long time. So what? Why would you want to make those encodes be less than they can be if you're going to own them? Because that's what we're talking about. 720p is not good enough for the future. It's barely HD, but it's technically in the spec. Which, you know, if you take the term "HD Lite" and you really look at it, it does have HD in it. Which should, unless you're COMPLETELY lost in an AVS subforum, mean that it is in fact HD. Just "liter" than other forms. Similar to how Diet Coke is still coke. Just lighter. ;)

Hell, next you'll be arguing that HD DVD's and BD's should have 720p encodes because they're "good enough" with lower bitrate DD encodes just to be able to fit more movies on the discs.

And yes, I know that a 720p VC1 encode can be better than a 1080p mpeg2 encode if it's done poorly. I've also seen 1080p mpeg2 encodes that were as good as VC1 encodes and have seen 1080p VC1 encodes that looked pretty downright sad in places. But in a situation where the codecs are given equal optimization and support, 1080p wins each and every time.

You don't EVER want to propose scaling a resolution UP from a lower resolution because it makes the scaling look at best equal to the original and at worse inferior. You always, always want to scale the higher resolution down because at best you'll get the best on the upper end, awesome on the lower end. So get off the "720p is great, it's all I got, it's all everyone needs," train.

HD Lite indeed. Please stop thinking that what you need now is what you'll need in the future. It's a good thing the BDA and Toshiba were smarter than that when they were making their specs have 1080p encodes before 1080p was even prevalent or we'd all be in sad shape.

What was the question again?

Why is this still here?

What was the question again?

Why is this still here?

Good point.. Lets keep this thread on track. We are debating if Blockbusters decision to go Blu-Ray exclusive had to do with the observation that Microsoft is using HD-DVD as a tool to delay the next generation optical format Blu-Ray with the ultimate goal of ....

“I don’t know that [HD] will be delivered on an optical disc in five to 10 years,” he said, pointing to downloads and broadband delivery. “At Microsoft, we’d rather it wasn’t [on a disc].”
http://www.homemediamagazine.com/ne...rticle_id=10757

Will other companies like Best Buy, Circuit City, etc. realize that downloads will not bring any significant income stream and actually cause a massive loss in revenue from HD optical media, CE devices. etc. Do you think this might cause them to go Blu-Ray exclusive? Another point you have to look at is the lack of advertising that HD-DVD is receiving in the stores and in the media. How much money does Microsoft have? Do you think if they wanted HD-DVD to really win this "War" they would be using major cash for product placement and advertising? The proof is in front off you... all you have to do is look. :)

PS. Please lets try to have a civil debate about the above topic. If you like to discuss a different topic then start a new thread. Thank-You

Are you actually trying to tell me that the term HD Lite was defined exclusively by AVSforum? Talk about out of touch. ;) You do know the term is used in other places besides this great forum, right? Hello? There's a whole world wide web out there beyond AVS and HD Lite is being used for other things in addition to your specific subforum. You may need to take a walk outside.

Then apparently you don't know what you're talking about. Actually, it's been apparent the entire thread. But ok.

So you're saying BECAUSE TV does it, that makes it what we want for our movies? Is that what you're saying? Because I know a hell of a lot of channels still releasing in Pan and Scan. I guess we ought to do that, too, eh? No more releases in 16:9, no ANYTHING but what the majority can use. Oh, and let's not forget that Dolby Digital audio... nah, pointless, right? Most channels don't support it. Hell, now that I think about it, I think SDTV's dwarf entirely all HDTV's, even given the recent uptake. We should go back to 480p until there isn't an SDTV left because as long as it exists, its useful. We can just scale up, right?

Give me a break. Now you're heading all over the map in order to make a point in which you can't really defend against.

Simple yes or no question. IS 720P AN HDTV RESOLUTION? No commentary about your "tastes", or your dislikes/whatnot. A simple yes....or no......will suffice.


Saying, "Well, it looks great, it doesn't matter!" is tantamount to J6P saying the same about their 32" SDTV. I guess by your logic, we don't need HDTV at all since that very same argument is what most people say about ANY high def, 720p HD Lite or not. We don't need any dolby because most people can't play it. I mean, do most have 5.1? All we really need is stereo. Hell, I figure we don't need "advanced features" on discs because most people don't have broadband fast enough to really use it. We don't need 720p downloads on Xbox 360's because more Xbox owners use it internet-less than do.

Once again, you are taking the fanatical extremist viewpoint. And since you contine to call 720p "HD Lite", which it's not, I can see you're just going to stick to your hardline radicalism.

We're talking about the people that it does matter for. Bringing all the people that won't see a difference in a matter can be done until it reaches irrelevance. I show you the extension of this to show you how absurd your points are.

Ahhhhh, so no one else matters but you. Gotcha.


And you do realize that most 1080i sets look better running 1080p content than they do running 720p content. I'm sure you already know that. I'm sure you're aware that quite a few 1080i sets were sold back in the ancient times before 1080p's arrival.

ROFL, so exactly what is your point? The 720p movies and broadcast networks I watch also look great running in 1080i. See, as I need to remind you, 720 is actual HD. I know this is a hard concept to grasp, but I feel I need to keep trying to get it through to you. At this point, I don't know why.


You know, I'm not going to respond to everyone else's posts because they felt their 720p projector or TV's were being slighted. I will say this. I don't understand how ANYONE can profess to support a format that is inferior to the top end. That's like my professing no need for anything more than 480p because if you get far enough back, you can't tell the difference.

I'm sorry, did 480p somehow become a high definition resolution? Damn, I must have slept through this period where 720p was ousted in favor of 480p.

You are being rediculous at best, just mind-boggling at worst.


It's shortsighted. 1080p is used because most consumers will EVENTUALLY use it. Why would you want your downloads of today to be 720p only to get 1080p sets and find the resolution less than optimal? It's the same reason you want lossless audio. Maybe you don't have it today, but you want it tomorrow for when you do have the capability.

What?? So what you're telling me is, screw today. And everyone who owns or even just purchased a new HDTV which is 720p, well screw them too. They'll EVENTUALLY at some point in life get 1080p sets.

And how many of these consumers do you actually think will notice this gigantic difference in quality you profess to see yourself? Outside of a forum like this. And again, knowing you've not sampled what you're trying to bash makes this entire thing laughable.


I used to have a 720p projector and I went to a 1080p projector. There's a difference. I'm sorry you 720p peeps haven't gotten around to it yet. But eventually you will and you'll realize that we need 1080p now for the day when you do finally go 1080p. We don't need 720p in a 1080p-capable world. We don't need Dolby Digital DVD-level audio when some of us (and an increasing number thanks to lower cost DD+/DTS HD MA receivers) are capable of more. Sure, it's not the majority, but it'll be enough eventually. Just like HDTV wasn't necessary for a long time, but it is slowly becoming important.

SOME OF US. The "I'm better than you" crowd. That's an awesome attitude to have. And you're starting to sound like you're up on a soapbox preaching down to the masses. Holding the "good book of 1080p" in your hands telling everyone who's at 720p they're going to hell.

BTW, you should petition Disney and Fox right away. You need to proclaim to them that they should smite their current broadcast resolutions of 720p on ABC, ESPN, ESPN2, and Fox/Fox Sports. That they should believe brother.........believe in the power of 1080p. Believe that they are sinners, sinning on OTA broadcast right before our very eyes!!! That they........who pretend to talk up Blu-ray so much, are deceivers!!!! That you and your followers will simply not tolerate their "HD Lite" ways.

You know, it's ironic, and funny even, that the very biggest backers of Blu-ray don't even broadcast their TV networks in 1080i, especially when CBS, NBC, and most all the movie networks do. That must be hard for you to reconcile. I can almost see the sweat on your brow as you have to come up with some excuse or reason to justify how this "HD Lite" is ok for that. Of course you ignored that point the first time.

I can't even make it through the rest of your post. I thought makeussleep was bad. I won't even acknowledge him since he speaks without experience. You're just freaking me out now. I felt like I was either talking to an evangelist, or worse.



You know the WORST thing about all this great Blu-ray news the last couple days? It's turned people into freaking lunatics this week, and this is the crap that comes of it. It's sad, and it drives people away. And it makes AVS look bad in the process. :(

SOME OF US. The "I'm better than you" crowd. That's an awesome attitude to have. And you're starting to sound like you're up on a soapbox preaching down to the masses. Holding the "good book of 1080p" in your hands telling everyone who's at 720p they're going to hell.

BTW, you should petition Disney and Fox right away. You need to proclaim to them that they should smite their current broadcast resolutions of 720p on ABC, ESPN, ESPN2, and Fox/Fox Sports. That they should believe brother.........believe in the power of 1080p. Believe that they are sinners, sinning on OTA broadcast right before our very eyes!!! That they........who pretend to talk up Blu-ray so much, are deceivers!!!! That you and your followers will simply not tolerate their "HD Lite" ways.

You know, it's ironic, and funny even, that the very biggest backers of Blu-ray don't even broadcast their TV networks in 1080i, especially when CBS, NBC, and most all the movie networks do. That must be hard for you to reconcile. I can almost see the sweat on your brow as you have to come up with some excuse or reason to justify how this "HD Lite" is ok for that. Of course you ignored that point the first time.

I can't even make it through the rest of your post. I thought makeussleep was bad. I won't even acknowledge him since he speaks without experience. You're just freaking me out now. I felt like I was either talking to an evangelist, or worse.

Can you so kindly refer to the post above yours. This is totally off topic and does not add any substance to the topic at hand. Can please stop trying to derail the thread and post your X-box live questions in the gaming forum. Thank-you for your cooperation. :)

Can you so kindly refer to the post above yours. This is totally off topic and does not add any substance to the topic at hand. Can please stop trying to derail the thread and post your X-box live questions in the gaming forum. Thank-you for your cooperation. :)

this thread derailed from post #1.... the post you made was pretty asinine from the get go. and i agree this thread should just be locked. when best buy goes neutral a thread like this should be made.

And really the gaming area is the complete wrong place to discuss this stuff... hopeffuly the mods here will create a new forum for downloadable hd content.

Thanks for making me spit my water all over the monitor ROFL.

You caught that one.. ;)