Let me start off by saying I support both formats but lean more on the HD-DVD side.

I keep reading all these format war threads and everyone keeps stating what it is going to take to win. Yes, HD-DVD is looking out a little more for the consumer. The keys to victory though isn't what is going to make the consumer happy. It is getting the studios on board and right now the only thing the blu-ray exclusive studios care about is anti-piracy, bottom line, that's it.

I use to work for a studio that is blu-ray exclusive and still keep in touch with many of the execs there, going out for dinner and drinks, so I hear a lot of why they back blu-ray. Blu-ray promised the best anti-piracy protections but unfortunately they haven't delivered very well on that. Supposively there next update will be better. They really don't care which one offers more features, sells for a dollar or two less, has the more fan boys, or is better for target practice. It's about which one has region coding, can't be copied and shared with your friends or all over the internet. The only reason the studios jumped on the new formats was because they saw the larger discs which meant harder to download. Lot easier (at least looking at it in time) to download off a file sharing service a regular dvd than some large blu-ray or HD-DVD.

Though talking to the studio execs more recently especially with both formats being hacked, they don't care if either format survives. They see downloading as the future. They want to go back to the divx days where no one really owned the movie. Downloading is seen as a way to add extreme copy protections by only allowing it to be watched on one device, a certain number of times, and even expiring it after a certain amount of time. It is all about maximizing profits and downloading can do that by making you pay if you want to watch it more than lets say 3 times, pay to watch it again 30 days later, prevent you from sharing it on the internet, and prevent you from loaning it to a friend.

After hearing all that, lets face it, the format war will be over very soon with no winners!!!! We all lose and we can thank the hackers, illegal downloaders, and the importers of all those illegal copies from overseas.

moved to appropriate forum

After hearing all that, lets face it, the format war will be over very soon with no winners!!!!

Some good insight, but downloading is still a long way off:

how do you figure the format war will very soon be over?

The movie studios are making the same mistakes for the same reasons that put the hurt on the music industry. Instead of profiting by providing consumers with convenience and economy, greed forces them to fight a losing battle against technology and human nature.

There is a parallel between CD sales and piracy, but the music industry had plenty of people trying to tell them to get behind legal downloads and stop charging too much for a collection of songs when the customer wanted only one. They created a generation of freeloaders, fighting back with heavy-handed anti-consumer lawsuits. By the time iTunes convinced them there was a batter way to deliver their product, it was too late to stop the trend.

The movie suits are following the same path. They can't prevent piracy, and they fail to see that the best way to discourage it is to make legal copies available and affordable. (The lack of region coding for HD DVD is a big plus in my mind. I've already invested in some legal imports for exactly that reason.)

The very file sizes they hope will prevent illegal sharing make video downloads impractical for the near future. Instead of investing in and really supporting the Hi-Def formats we have now, they are letting them wither in a war that no one looks likely to win.

That leaves a majority of consumers confused and sitting on the sidelines. How does that help the studios? It's pretzel logic, even in a corporate boardroom where profits trump all.

I think digital piracy is something we all have to deal with, and the fact that the BD studios have been more active about combating it shows that they are more willing to use technological solutions rather than litigation a la **AA. Once MMC is instituted properly, anyone complaining about "excessive" DRM is clearly a pirate of sorts.

I use to work for a studio that is blu-ray exclusive and still keep in touch with many of the execs there, going out for dinner and drinks, so I hear a lot of why they back blu-ray.
Excellent, then please do us ALL a favor & the next time you're at dinner reach across the table & slap each one across the face & say listen up you fecking morons!

If it can be built it can be hacked, in fact it's easier to hack than build. I realize you inbred out of touch idiots can't fathom this idea but it's true.

Limited use? Brilliant, what a concept - you dipsh*ts have heard of DiVix, right? You did see how the public reacted to that, right? (slap 'em again to keep them interested) Try it, the public will tell you to shove it - then you can live off the failing theater revenue. Another tasty byproduct of this will be huge hacker interest - nothing they like better.....damn, screwed again.

Keeping pounding until these single digit IQ wonders realize the ONLY way to combat piracy it to make it so cheap nobody can be bothered. A DVD costs what? A few pennies to produce? They start @ $14.99 why again? And if these dim bulbs can't grasp the concept tell them to take a look at Wal-Mart's business model (if they can't read then draw some pretty pictures). Little profit on LOTS of sales = big $$$$ revenue.

The movie studios are making the same mistakes for the same reasons that put the hurt on the music industry. Instead of profiting by providing consumers with convenience and economy, greed forces them to fight a losing battle against technology and human nature.
Exactly.....apparently having a brother & sister for parents makes this concept impossible for them to grasp.

And you might also remind them to put some $$$ aside for the litigation - likely to cost quite a bit when it comes to "fair use".

(Just in case anyone missed it - this is the R. Lee Ermey version :D )

You bring up very good points. We know why most studios went with Blu-Ray. Sony caved to their demands as far as copy protection, region coding, etc. They feel the need to protect their investments, and most people at least "understand" that part.

I do feel I need to throw something in though. DVD was hacked, and the studios are still making billions which is why they continue to support it. If HD-DVD or Blu-Ray will do the same for them, they will stick to one of them as well. This is why there are "How can HD-DVD win" threads... The more people buy it, the more the studios will sell it... The thread discusses what they can do to increase sales so that they can show studios that their is a profit to be made.

I truly hope the copy protection is good enough to thwart hackers because I dont want either to fail completely...

With that being said, piracy occurs no matter what. You have thousands of people who work on cracking what only tens of people create. If we go the all download route, people will find a way to pirate it... When the bandwidth is enough for fully downloadable movies (with any type of decent quality), it will be enough to pirate them just as easily. The truth is, it's a matrix of pixels, and as long as you can see those pixels, you'll be able to make a copy of them. Cept now people wont have to go through the trouble of ripping it to their hard drives before they upload them.

Just my 2 cents


Let me start off by saying I support both formats but lean more on the HD-DVD side.

I keep reading all these format war threads and everyone keeps stating what it is going to take to win. Yes, HD-DVD is looking out a little more for the consumer. The keys to victory though isn't what is going to make the consumer happy. It is getting the studios on board and right now the only thing the blu-ray exclusive studios care about is anti-piracy, bottom line, that's it.

I use to work for a studio that is blu-ray exclusive and still keep in touch with many of the execs there, going out for dinner and drinks, so I hear a lot of why they back blu-ray. Blu-ray promised the best anti-piracy protections but unfortunately they haven't delivered very well on that. Supposively there next update will be better. They really don't care which one offers more features, sells for a dollar or two less, has the more fan boys, or is better for target practice. It's about which one has region coding, can't be copied and shared with your friends or all over the internet. The only reason the studios jumped on the new formats was because they saw the larger discs which meant harder to download. Lot easier (at least looking at it in time) to download off a file sharing service a regular dvd than some large blu-ray or HD-DVD.

Though talking to the studio execs more recently especially with both formats being hacked, they don't care if either format survives. They see downloading as the future. They want to go back to the divx days where no one really owned the movie. Downloading is seen as a way to add extreme copy protections by only allowing it to be watched on one device, a certain number of times, and even expiring it after a certain amount of time. It is all about maximizing profits and downloading can do that by making you pay if you want to watch it more than lets say 3 times, pay to watch it again 30 days later, prevent you from sharing it on the internet, and prevent you from loaning it to a friend.

After hearing all that, lets face it, the format war will be over very soon with no winners!!!! We all lose and we can thank the hackers, illegal downloaders, and the importers of all those illegal copies from overseas.

Thanks Bailey151, that was GREAT!!!

i understand the need for studios to protect investments. aacs is good enough for warner/paramount/universal. therefore, it is good enough period IMO.

if the bda gives up on bd+, bdmark, region coding AND gets behind mmc then i could be happy with bd. however, hd dvd would still have the advantage for mmc use becasue they use more efficient encodes.

if hd dvd were to go away and the studios get the extra drm they want without providing mmc then i will stop buying and rent only.

even if they do abandon bd+, bdmark, region codeing and support mmc. i will never ever trust the bda to not bring that stuff back as soon as they can get away with it. IMO the bd specs are tainted with the stink of DRM for all time.

The studios have to provide MMC, otherwise end users will have a reasonable legal exception under the DMCA to back up their movies (though not share them, obviously). Backing up movies without MMC would lead to the proliferation of illegal DRM cracking software, and blur the line between legal backups and illegal file sharing. MMC will therefore occur on whatever format wins, in order to protect the studios DRM.

The studios have to provide MMC, otherwise end users will have a reasonable legal exception under the DMCA to back up their movies (though not share them, obviously). Backing up movies without MMC would lead to the proliferation of illegal DRM cracking software, and blur the line between legal backups and illegal file sharing. MMC will therefore occur on whatever format wins, in order to protect the studios DRM.
I think piracy will happen regardless of what the studios do. Downloads? Yeah, how fast will the website be hacked? How long before the play limits will be cracked, or the player kill codes................................the list goes on.

I do agree they are just simpled minded enough to believe they can "fight" it. Sadly the concept that price can be used to fight piracy is foreign. Maybe they should look at prohibition? A good model of what they can expect.

I agree with your post Bailey, but I'd point out that there is one important difference with downloads; you can legally back up media you own (either through consumer friendly MMC, or via "third-party" DRM killers in the absence of MMC), but if we are forced into a rental-only market for downloads, then any copy of the rented media you have on your computer (or anywhere else) for any reason is illegal, and the studios can have a field day prsecuting whoever they want. Rent-only downloads are the most anti-consumer business possible, and we should do all that we can to avoid them.

I agree with your post Bailey, but I'd point out that there is one important difference with downloads; you can legally back up media you own (either through consumer friendly MMC, or via "third-party" DRM killers in the absence of MMC), but if we are forced into a rental-only market for downloads, then any copy of the rented media you have on your computer (or anywhere else) for any reason is illegal, and the studios can have a field day prsecuting whoever they want. Rent-only downloads are the most anti-consumer business possible, and we should do all that we can to avoid them.
Absolutely agree - 100%. My only real point was "good luck prosecuting them". You can have all the legal rights you want - how does one sue the hacker in China? (we still can't get them enforce copyrights) Even if they get their dream of download rentals only - how do you stop the transfer from offshore? A fast look @ xbox mods shows exactly how they "git er done".

I just wish they'd get in touch with reality - they simply can't stop it (unless it's not worth the time)

I'll say it before and I'll say it again...corporations run this country (USA) and they are only looking out for their best interests. So if you're "choices" are in line with their best interests, you will get your choice, otherwise, you're choice will be thrown out and they will go with what they want and force feed it to you.

Most of the time if it makes the most money, that is in their best interests.

Look at cable / satellite service, wouldn't it be in the best interest of the consumer to have a "cafeteria" plan where they would only pay for the channels they want? What happens, we are forced to buy "packages" full of channels we'll never watch (exactly why I don't have cable / satellite).

Look at cable / satellite service, wouldn't it be in the best interest of the consumer to have a "cafeteria" plan where they would only pay for the channels they want? What happens, we are forced to buy "packages" full of channels we'll never watch (exactly why I don't have cable / satellite).

Except if you like only a few channels that are unpopular, they're likely going to be dropped or be priced much more expensively than other channels.

I'd prefer a cafeteria style for cable but I recognize that some channels I may want could be more expensive than if I just got a bundle with 300 other channels I don't care for.

So help me, if you were across the table from a Fox or MGM executive and you didn't ask what the frick is up with the lack of releases after 3 months, I just MIGHT have to hunt you down and destroy you. ;)

Please say it ain't so.

So help me, if you were across the table from a Fox or MGM executive and you didn't ask what the frick is up with the lack of releases after 3 months, I just MIGHT have to hunt you down and destroy you. ;)

Please say it ain't so.

:o

I have to disagree with everyone who says they are wasting their time to battle piracy. I use to think they were wasting their time too. You'll never stop the "talented" people on piracy but you can sure stop the everyday joe blow. DVDs became so easy to copy that everyone is practically doing it now. I know so many people who have no technical skill but can copy a dvd. Piracy can never be stopped but it can be made more difficult to limit the affects. Just look at the past when everyone stole cable, directtv, and so. Very few do it now.

:o

I have to disagree with everyone who says they are wasting their time to battle piracy. I use to think they were wasting their time too. You'll never stop the "talented" people on piracy but you can sure stop the everyday joe blow. DVDs became so easy to copy that everyone is practically doing it now. I know so many people who have no technical skill but can copy a dvd. Piracy can never be stopped but it can be made more difficult to limit the affects. Just look at the past when everyone stole cable, directtv, and so. Very few do it now.

DRM doesn't bother me that much unless the features actually impact audio and/or video quality (the audio watermark on DVD-A comes to mind). An HD video disc requires a fairly large screen to take advantage of the format; and most folks will be lucky to have one (1) such screen in their households. If BD+ actually works (I'm highly skeptical), it will give the studios another major incentive to use Blu-Ray instead of HD-DVD. This works for me as I believe Blu-Ray is the superior format for the long-term.

What does hack me off is region coding; I might just want to get a specific release from a different region but Blu-ray may or may not allow me to read that disc depending on region coding.

Yes, HD-DVD is looking out a little more for the consumer.No, it isn't.

I keep reading all these format war threads and everyone keeps stating what it is going to take to win. Yes, HD-DVD is looking out a little more for the consumer.
how by trying to con them into buying a player they don’t need?

The keys to victory though isn't what is going to make the consumer happy. It is getting the studios on board and right now the only thing the blu-ray exclusive studios care about is anti-piracy, bottom line, that's it.

no I think it is actually selling movies. Yes pirated movies cut into sales but also not having customers that will buy them

I use to work for a studio that is blu-ray exclusive and still keep in touch with many of the execs there, going out for dinner and drinks, so I hear a lot of why they back blu-ray.
so you think all studios have the same reason? Then why did Universal go HD DVD? Why is Paramount, Warner dual? Kind of stupid of supporting BD to lock the front door on a house with no back wall because HD DVD is wide open.

They really don't care which one offers more features, sells for a dollar or two less, has the more fan boys, or is better for target practice.
none of the formats care about that the companies backing them care about $$$$

They see downloading as the future. They want to go back to the divx days where no one really owned the movie.
can be, and that is why I prefer disks



After hearing all that, lets face it, the format war will be over very soon with no winners!!!!
that is not a given yet

We all lose and we can thank the hackers, illegal downloaders, and the importers of all those illegal copies from overseas.

can agree with that.

Stop the Madness! Format war is not about what is best for the consumer!

I agree completely. Has anyone ever heard of competition being anything but bad for consumers ? :p

I keep reading all these format war threads and everyone keeps stating what it is going to take to win. Yes, HD-DVD is looking out a little more for the consumer.

how by trying to con them into buying a player they don’t need?

Funny, the same can be said of Blu-Ray. Though you'd actually pay twice as much for the Blu-Ray player that you don't need! :rolleyes:

Let me start off by saying I support both formats but lean more on the HD-DVD side.

I keep reading all these format war threads and everyone keeps stating what it is going to take to win. Yes, HD-DVD is looking out a little more for the consumer. The keys to victory though isn't what is going to make the consumer happy. It is getting the studios on board and right now the only thing the blu-ray exclusive studios care about is anti-piracy, bottom line, that's it.

I use to work for a studio that is blu-ray exclusive and still keep in touch with many of the execs there, going out for dinner and drinks, so I hear a lot of why they back blu-ray. Blu-ray promised the best anti-piracy protections but unfortunately they haven't delivered very well on that. Supposively there next update will be better. They really don't care which one offers more features, sells for a dollar or two less, has the more fan boys, or is better for target practice. It's about which one has region coding, can't be copied and shared with your friends or all over the internet. The only reason the studios jumped on the new formats was because they saw the larger discs which meant harder to download. Lot easier (at least looking at it in time) to download off a file sharing service a regular dvd than some large blu-ray or HD-DVD.

Though talking to the studio execs more recently especially with both formats being hacked, they don't care if either format survives. They see downloading as the future. They want to go back to the divx days where no one really owned the movie. Downloading is seen as a way to add extreme copy protections by only allowing it to be watched on one device, a certain number of times, and even expiring it after a certain amount of time. It is all about maximizing profits and downloading can do that by making you pay if you want to watch it more than lets say 3 times, pay to watch it again 30 days later, prevent you from sharing it on the internet, and prevent you from loaning it to a friend.

After hearing all that, lets face it, the format war will be over very soon with no winners!!!! We all lose and we can thank the hackers, illegal downloaders, and the importers of all those illegal copies from overseas.

Uhh no, you can think the greedy studios for trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip. As if they don't make money hand over fist, and now they punish all consumers because of a few bad apples. Fogeddaboudit, blame it on the corporations and anti-consumerism, that's exactly what it is.

:o

I have to disagree with everyone who says they are wasting their time to battle piracy. I use to think they were wasting their time too. You'll never stop the "talented" people on piracy but you can sure stop the everyday joe blow. DVDs became so easy to copy that everyone is practically doing it now. I know so many people who have no technical skill but can copy a dvd. Piracy can never be stopped but it can be made more difficult to limit the affects. Just look at the past when everyone stole cable, directtv, and so. Very few do it now.

OK I can accept the argument that the movies are the studios' IP. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. I can accept the egregious ticket prices and disk prices, after all, I don't need to buy them, right?

But to tell me that it is a few bad apples, hackers, causing all these god-awful, horrendous, earth-shattering problems for studios? Please. It will be a cold hell in hell the day I shed one tear for these corporations. They are making so much dang money, and in order to squeeze out that last .1% they punish everyone.

Does this have anything to do with Netflix adding watch now so you can veiw movies right on your desktop?? I tried it and all I could say was I wish they had hd so I wouldn't have to ever buy another disc again. I would much prefer a VOD service where I could watch any movie anytime.

Grab-ankles for BD!

I use to work for a studio that is blu-ray exclusive and still keep in touch with many of the execs there, going out for dinner and drinks, so I hear a lot of why they back blu-ray. ... It's about which one has region coding, ...

If they manage to enforce region coding (and I think that they practically can with either format) it will be the end of their business outside the US.

Most film fans don't mind paying a reasonable amount to get a copy of a US film in their own region. But in many cases your friends don't make it available at any price in Europe and Australia, so we have to import it from the US. Don't you think I'd rather be able to mail off for my $5 bonus wall poster and not have to wait a month for the boxed set to arrive by a slow boat?

If you prevent us in Europe/Australia from playing US imports, two things will happen. Parliaments in Europe will simply legislate away US copyrights of anything other than first releases - after all, there is the longstanding precedent where 19th century European authors had no copyright protection at all in the US. And audiences will use their discretionary income and time to buy what they are allowed to - that is, European and Australian films.

If you want to see a preview of your future, take a look at what is happening with US television material in Australia. Due to an immature cable system and incompetence in free-to-air broadcasting, most of your material is not obtainable from there. (Example: Gilmore Girls two years behind and shown at 4:30pm on a Saturday, at the same time as the football.) Region 4 DVDs of TV series are mostly unpublished, late or ridiculously expensive. The amount of illegal downloading going on is vast, and meanwhile tastes are shifting towards the more easily available UK product. Don't you want to stay in business?

If they manage to enforce region coding (and I think that they practically can with either format) it will be the end of their business outside the US
Why? I understand all your points & they make sense............but I see no reason why region coding can't be made to work.

Region coding would allow the studios to target countries that have high piracy rates. There's no reason they have to stick with the current regions. It may require a dual layer region coding due which company has the rights in a given country. For example, Harry Potter is a Disney flick.....but in the UK a different company has the distribution rights. We code the disc as playable in the UK, but then a 2nd check to make sure it's not the Disney version = good to go for everyone. If a given company has world wide rights then no secondary check is needed.

I'm no fan of region coding but it can be made to work withour hosing the consumer.....too much.

Useful insight.

However, I think that the competition is good, and has improved quality and availability.

If FOX would like to do downloads only, and not release on discs, then let them go ahead. Their market share and overall profits will suffer for that decision - no doubt on this at all.

One cannot simply choose to shut down certain channels and expect one's market share and revenue to remain the same - in fact, it will only serve to INCREASE the piracy and sharing one complains about, since there is a NATURAL desire by customers to own copies of these movies.

I can agree with the OPs statement that the "cracking" of the AACS protection this early in the HD/BD lifecycle was devastating.

In the end, this AACS crack was far more damaging to HD Optical Media adoption by studios than the HD/BD competition ever was.

If anyone in either BD or HD camp was in ANY WAY responsible for this AACS crack, it is probably the stupidest and most short-sighted thing that they could have done, IMO. That's not saying anyone in either camp WAS responsible, just highlighting how much it damaged HDOM's chances.

But the competition itself has been very good for consumers in many ways...

Region coding would allow the studios to target countries that have high piracy rates. There's no reason they have to stick with the current regions. It may require a dual layer region coding due which company has the rights in a given country. For example, Harry Potter is a Disney flick.....but in the UK a different company has the distribution rights. We code the disc as playable in the UK, but then a 2nd check to make sure it's not the Disney version = good to go for everyone. If a given company has world wide rights then no secondary check is needed.


You seem to be describing some kind of online playback enabling scheme. I doubt consumer law in most countries would allow HD-DVD or Blu-Ray discs to do this for the main program (as distinct from extras): those products have been heavily promoted as disc playback systems, with no mention of an internet connection required. You could sell such a disc, but not call it HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, so what would be the point?

What would be the point anyway, as opposed to a pure downloaded product?

For example, Harry Potter...

That's an interesting example you give, because the boot's on the other foot. It's actually a British film, and I have heard the version you get is not as good as the one we get in Britain and Australia. Another example is the Wallace and Gromit film, where some of the best gags were removed because someone thought Americans wouldn't understand them.

That's an interesting example you give, because the boot's on the other foot. It's actually a British film, and I have heard the version you get is not as good as the one we get in Britain and Australia.
It was just to illustrate a point. Region coding could be used to target piracy & keep distribution rights intact.

Sadly that is a good point, one would hope the studios would provide equal quality films across the board..........too bad they can't seem to manage that.

Another example is the Wallace and Gromit film, where some of the best gags were removed because someone thought Americans wouldn't understand them.
Likely a correct estimation - gets much beyond "fart" humor & Americans can't grasp it. :D

Useful insight.

However, I think that the competition is good, and has improved quality and availability.

If FOX would like to do downloads only, and not release on discs, then let them go ahead. Their market share and overall profits will suffer for that decision - no doubt on this at all.

One cannot simply choose to shut down certain channels and expect one's market share and revenue to remain the same - in fact, it will only serve to INCREASE the piracy and sharing one complains about, since there is a NATURAL desire by customers to own copies of these movies.

I can agree with the OPs statement that the "cracking" of the AACS protection this early in the HD/BD lifecycle was devastating.

In the end, this AACS crack was far more damaging to HD Optical Media adoption by studios than the HD/BD competition ever was.

If anyone in either BD or HD camp was in ANY WAY responsible for this AACS crack, it is probably the stupidest and most short-sighted thing that they could have done, IMO. That's not saying anyone in either camp WAS responsible, just highlighting how much it damaged HDOM's chances.

But the competition itself has been very good for consumers in many ways...

Quite frankly I'm actually glad the hackjobs are around. This is one of those times where I don't think it's a chicken or egg question; to me hackers are simply an excuse for corporations to squeeze blood from a turnip. I think the whole copy protection thing has gone way too darn far. Most people are law-abiding, honest folks and will purchase a legit copy...studios and heck many software companies are just making the average consumer's life more painful.

I can tell you that EVERYTHING I buy is legit. I miss the old days where I could back up a copy of my SW with ease and store the original somewhere safe.

This is the exact same mentality that the studios had when Beta Max recordable tape machines were first released. The studios litigated for months as they attempted to quash the technology and cried doom and gloom for the industry and… the home movie business was born, despite there best efforts, and turned into the biggest financial boom to the studios imaginable.

The studio suits didn’t get it then and they don’t get it now. And because they don’t get it they continue to act as if all their customers are crooks. When these guys go into their financial meetings, they don’t talk about the billions they made; they talk about the potential Billions they lose to piracy. Which is ironic because studios get away with “special” accounting rules that allow them to avoid taxes. This is after all a business that can make billions in revenue on a movie, yet not make a dime in profit.

I can tell you that EVERYTHING I buy is legit. I miss the old days where I could back up a copy of my SW with ease and store the original somewhere safe.

That made sense back in the VHS days, but digital media is a much more durable, and a much less expensive platform. There is no legitimate reason to make a 'back up copy'. If you're that worried about screwing your disc up, spend 15 bucks and buy a second copy for crying out loud!

DRM doesn't bother me in the least. And if that's what it takes to get me an HD copy of Star Wars, or whatever other movie that I want in HD, then fine.

As far as downloading/divx crap goes... That's just simply is never going to fly. Sure, there might be a few takers, but people in general are "collectors" by nature. People want something they can hold in their hands, put on a shelf, and look at whenever the mood hits them.

W/o the format war the Blu-Side would be stuck with MPEG-II encoded movies on a BD25 played on a $1000+ player. The format war has been excellent for Blu-Ray and the consumers who use Blu-Ray

That made sense back in the VHS days, but digital media is a much more durable, and a much less expensive platform. There is no legitimate reason to make a 'back up copy'. If you're that worried about screwing your disc up, spend 15 bucks and buy a second copy for crying out loud!

DRM doesn't bother me in the least. And if that's what it takes to get me an HD copy of Star Wars, or whatever other movie that I want in HD, then fine.

As far as downloading/divx crap goes... That's just simply is never going to fly. Sure, there might be a few takers, but people in general are "collectors" by nature. People want something they can hold in their hands, put on a shelf, and look at whenever the mood hits them.

Huh? Why should I have to buy another copy to make a backup, that's insane. I'd much rather store my originals and play the backups, so that if I did want to watch them away from home, I don't have to worry about the original. I should be abl to make copies for my own use, as long as I'm not pirating/selling it. The same goes with my CD collection, same philosophy although I use the CDs a lot more frequently.

Plus I don't know where you're getting a $15 pricetag...

How can BD beat out HD-DVD since the BD camp is full of DRM fans. If a movies is made available only via download, the pirates will get 100% of that HDOM money. If they only show the movie in theaters, the semiDMR studios, with HDOM, will have a competative advantage.

Sony et al can solve this HD problems very simply by selling its movie business to a Chinese company. They would price out the pirates.

Huh? Why should I have to buy another copy to make a backup, that's insane. I'd much rather store my originals and play the backups, so that if I did want to watch them away from home, I don't have to worry about the original. I should be abl to make copies for my own use, as long as I'm not pirating/selling it. The same goes with my CD collection, same philosophy although I use the CDs a lot more frequently.

Plus I don't know where you're getting a $15 pricetag...


To me, the fact that you think that you deserve to make a backup, is insane. When you buy a TV, should they give you another one free, in case the first one breaks? As far as where I got the $15... that's about the average price for a DVD these days. I suppose I could have said $20, since you're obviously talking about HD.

Huh? Why should I have to buy another copy to make a backup, that's insane. I'd much rather store my originals and play the backups, so that if I did want to watch them away from home, I don't have to worry about the original. I should be abl to make copies for my own use, as long as I'm not pirating/selling it. The same goes with my CD collection, same philosophy although I use the CDs a lot more frequently.

Plus I don't know where you're getting a $15 pricetag...

I only have "modest" CD, SACD, and DVD libraries each of which (only?) numbers in the hundreds. I've only ever had to replace one (1) CD, so I don't see the need for backups (unlike with VHS tapes which wear out). Even "Fair Use" only allows you to play the disc only on one player at any given time. That HD-DVD/Blu-Ray is going to physically stay either in my HT room or when I bring it over to someone else's HT room. And I haven't owned a player which actually "eats" and destroys optical media. Maybe I see a point if you are going to insert/abuse discs in car players, but who is going to watch HD video while driving ?

DRM won't bother me one bit unless it affects audio/video quality. What might bother me is region coding which might prevent from enjoying media available only in other parts of the world. But having HD video with DRM is still a lot better than not having HD video at all. E.g. I have to wonder if Fox et al will lose all interest in releasing movies on HD media if the BD+ DRM scheme fails (which it probably will).

I only have "modest" CD, SACD, and DVD libraries each of which (only?) numbers in the hundreds. I've only ever had to replace one (1) CD, so I don't see the need for backups (unlike with VHS tapes which wear out). Even "Fair Use" only allows you to play the disc only on one player at any given time.
Which is what I do with music. It get's played on ONE player - difference is that I don't have to move it from vehicle to home or the reverse.

And while I'm no fan of region coding it would allow the targeting of countries like China that abosultely don't give a damn about intellectual property.

Which is what I do with music. It get's played on ONE player - difference is that I don't have to move it from vehicle to home or the reverse.

And while I'm no fan of region coding it would allow the targeting of countries like China that abosultely don't give a damn about intellectual property.

I'm behind the times, but if I'm serious about music in the car, I'll get an Ipod (or such) to play MP3s derived from CD sources. I doubt there will ever be an "equivalent" (IphoneHD?) for HD video media.

I'm behind the times, but if I'm serious about music in the car, I'll get an Ipod (or such) to play MP3s derived from CD sources. I doubt there will ever be an "equivalent" (IphoneHD?) for HD video media.
That's pretty much what I use, except it's an older product - a HDD. Okay, skip a few years & we have XYZ format players in cars.............I shouldn't be allowed to make a copy for the car player? I should have to drag the discs in & out of the house? I'm playing the disc on a single player @ a time = following the law.

To me, the fact that you think that you deserve to make a backup, is insane. When you buy a TV, should they give you another one free, in case the first one breaks? As far as where I got the $15... that's about the average price for a DVD these days. I suppose I could have said $20, since you're obviously talking about HD.

$20 isn't even the average price for a HD disk. There's a thread with the numbers around here somewhere.

You are comparing apples to oranges when comparing HW to SW. Actually it's more like apples to tires, there are no similarities in that "analogy". I find it interesting you take the stance you do...I would have to assume that you are either not in the SW industry, or are too young to remember the more "open" days, or you work for a studio.

If you've had to back up as much content as I have (for various reasons), you prefer that freedom. And then there are other issues with copy protection of course, such as the Bravo Sierra about keeping a game disk in your CPU if you want it to load, etc. The anti-piracy movement is completely anti-consumer, there's no other way to put it. It offers us NO advantages whatsoever.

I only have "modest" CD, SACD, and DVD libraries each of which (only?) numbers in the hundreds. I've only ever had to replace one (1) CD, so I don't see the need for backups (unlike with VHS tapes which wear out).

Even "Fair Use" only allows you to play the disc only on one player at any given time. That HD-DVD/Blu-Ray is going to physically stay either in my HT room or when I bring it over to someone else's HT room. And I haven't owned a player which actually "eats" and destroys optical media. Maybe I see a point if you are going to insert/abuse discs in car players, but who is going to watch HD video while driving ?


You don't see the need, but I do. It's about lack of consumer choice. I don't like having my hand forced, it's anti-consumer and a cop-out on the part of the content provider. I'm paying for a license to use their SW, and like you I would be playing it on one and only one CE device at a time.

It comes down to this really: Would you take the side of a corporation over a consumer, if the consumer is a stand-up guy with honest intentions? Because that's exactly what defenders of DRM are doing. Forget what the consumer's intent for copying the SW is, if it's legal -- because I guarantee you that would be the majority of cases. Plus, how much money for these greedy effers is enough? Anyone that stops and thinks about this, has to ponder just when are these guys gonna draw the line?

W/o the format war the Blu-Side would be stick with MPEG-II encoded movies on a BD25 played on a $1000+ player. The format war has been excellent for Blu-Ray and the consumers who use Blu-Ray

Why does this myth keep coming up? The BDA announced (long before the bad reviews of The Fifth Element, etc) that initial releases would be on single layer disks until they ramped up production of DL disks, and the same was true for mpeg2 vs. advance codecs. They also announced, repeatedly, that BDA member studios (e.g. Disney) wanted to utilize the extra space of DL disks for advanced interactivity, etc. They were always going to switch to DL disks, and the desire for more space (and competition between studios) would have driven them to use more efficient codecs for audio and video, just as competition amongst DVD studios lead to the use of DL DVDs, higher bitrate video encodes, and the spread of DD 5.1 and DTS mixes as time went on.

OK I can accept the argument that the movies are the studios' IP. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. I can accept the egregious ticket prices and disk prices, after all, I don't need to buy them, right?

But to tell me that it is a few bad apples, hackers, causing all these god-awful, horrendous, earth-shattering problems for studios? Please. It will be a cold hell in hell the day I shed one tear for these corporations. They are making so much dang money, and in order to squeeze out that last .1% they punish everyone.

Its not that. If their IP is not secure then you end up with the situation like back in the day when everyone had a copy of MS Word, but very few people actually bought the damn thing. And I'm talking about white collar professionals who didn't think they were doing anything wrong.

Its not that. If their IP is not secure then you end up with the situation like back in the day when everyone had a copy of MS Word, but very few people actually bought the damn thing. And I'm talking about white collar professionals who didn't think they were doing anything wrong.

The situation would never be like that again. That was when the SW industry was in its infancy, and companies let their employees do whatever they wanted because they didn't really know any better. Now, the copyright infringement laws are so much more evolved, you can track registration/activation online, and utilize technology in a host of other manners without causing the average Joe any (or very little) angst.

There is no need to require a person to keep the original DVD in his CPU to play a game, it's effing bogus. And not being able to make copies of my SW and movies is bogus. They're squeezing blood from a turnip I'm telling you. Do any of us really think for one second that we can build SW to land a robot on Mars, but we can't figure out how to make the consumer's life easier in this situation?

The situation would never be like that again. That was when the SW industry was in its infancy, and companies let their employees do whatever they wanted because they didn't really know any better. Now, the copyright infringement laws are so much more evolved, you can track registration/activation online, and utilize technology in a host of other manners without causing the average Joe any (or very little) angst.

There is no need to require a person to keep the original DVD in his CPU to play a game, it's effing bogus. And not being able to make copies of my SW and movies is bogus. They're squeezing blood from a turnip I'm telling you. Do any of us really think for one second that we can build SW to land a robot on Mars, but we can't figure out how to make the consumer's life easier in this situation?

One point, high def optical media is also in its infancy, and right now there are potentially more people who are able to download and play HD DVD and BD movies on their computer than people who purchase HD DVD and BD movies. Not saying more people do steal that purchase, just that it is possible.

Not saying your wrong on your other points just wanted to point that out. I agree that a lot could be done to make the experience better. FWIW I love Steam (digital distribution and management of pc games by Valve).

Though talking to the studio execs more recently especially with both formats being hacked, they don't care if either format survives. They see downloading as the future. They want to go back to the divx days where no one really owned the movie. Downloading is seen as a way to add extreme copy protections by only allowing it to be watched on one device, a certain number of times, and even expiring it after a certain amount of time. It is all about maximizing profits and downloading can do that by making you pay if you want to watch it more than lets say 3 times, pay to watch it again 30 days later, prevent you from sharing it on the internet, and prevent you from loaning it to a friend.


The problem with this scenario is that there is a sizeable part of the consumers that are willing to pay a premium to get a movie on a shiny disk. Call them collectors or whatever you want but there are a lot of those.

As for downloads, there are very few that will choose to pay for ones and zeros if they can get the same ones and zeros for free from torrents or newsgroups with likely faster downloads.

The market for disks will be much larger than the legal market for downloads for a very long time unless they find a foolproof way to stop download piracy which I think most agree will be very difficult.

So any studio not marketing to the diskbuyers for a long time yet will loose everything.

$20 isn't even the average price for a HD disk. There's a thread with the numbers around here somewhere.



Get your facts straight. The majority of HD-DVD/BD discs at Fry's are $19.99 all day long. You need to stop shopping at Best Buy.

One point, high def optical media is also in its infancy, and right now there are potentially more people who are able to download and play HD DVD and BD movies on their computer than people who purchase HD DVD and BD movies. Not saying more people do steal that purchase, just that it is possible.

Not saying your wrong on your other points just wanted to point that out. I agree that a lot could be done to make the experience better. FWIW I love Steam (digital distribution and management of pc games by Valve).

I hear ya man and respect your opinion. We just have to agree to disagree on a few points...I'm VERY libertarian when it comes to consumer rights if you can't already tell LOL.

Get your facts straight. The majority of HD-DVD/BD discs at Fry's are $19.99 all day long. You need to stop shopping at Best Buy.

YOU should get YOUR facts straight. $20 is not the average price for a freaking HD/BD disk -- that is the LOWEST price minus any deals. And I have an AMZN Prime acct., that's where I do all of my shopping. Whatever you're smoking, do not pass it please.

YOU should get YOUR facts straight. $20 is not the average price for a freaking HD/BD disk -- that is the LOWEST price minus any deals. And I have an AMZN Prime acct., that's where I do all of my shopping. Whatever you're smoking, do not pass it please.

Then you're getting screwed by your "AMZN Prime acct". The majority of all BD's and HD-DVD's are $19.99 at Fry's. And that's not a "sale" price, and you don't need no frakin' "Prime" account. :rolleyes:

Then you're getting screwed by your "AMZN Prime acct". The majority of all BD's and HD-DVD's are $19.99 at Fry's. And that's not a "sale" price, and you don't need no frakin' "Prime" account. :rolleyes:

TBH I've never even heard of Fry's before AVS. Is it B&M or online? /shrug

I really don't mind the cost of the disks too much right now. What irks me is when I know DVDs and CDs could have been cheaper for so many years (remember all the talk about the RIAA saying CD prices would be coming down soon?), but they aren't until the next-best thing comes along. It's such a frigging scam, unless consumers can actually have more flexibility with the media they bought.

Jack Valenti, his successors, studio lawyers, and certain execs have made copy protection their raison d'etre. In other words, certain people have made a very good living out of convincing shareholders and politicians that they (edit: need to and) can conquer copying. These same suits now have sugar plums dancing in their head that they can sell pay-per-view.

Ever notice the protection schemes are not created by in-house engineers? Much easier to crap on a contractor when it fails.

Can't type anymore, this is so BS