I was going to put it as a private poll, but then I thought that some people might vote for the other side to give them a bad rap. So public it is.

Every poll on this forum should always be public... you made the right choice Grubert. Too many 'activists' on either side that take advantage of the anonymous setup.

I voted prefer Blu-ray, no stalemate... no surprise I'm sure. But I want to emphasize that "no stalemate" is more important to me than a BD victory.

If you prefer HD DVD you should be hoping for a stalemate (imho) ;)

I'd rather have studio neutrality, gives me the consumer the option to choose what film I want on what format I want (ala Warner, Paramount). Never going to happen so I'll stick with HD DVD.

I voted BD no stalenmate though if "No stalemate" without qualifiers were an option, that would have been my selection.

ted

I voted BD no stalenmate though if "No stalemate" without qualifiers were an option, that would have been my selection.

Ditto.

No stalemate and going with BD. I don't want two player setups at all my TV's and have to worry about available inputs, switchers, remotes and the like. It's annoying, costs additional and is totally unneccessary.

The competition is good for consumers, certainly at this point at least.

Right now both sides are working hard to win consumer approval, reaching out to both early adopter and mass market but I have some concerns about how consumer friendly and responsive BDA might be on issues like price, quality, drm etc. if the competition is eliminated and there is one choice for hd video ownership.

Some say DVD will provide the competition, but sd dvd is not the same type of competitive option since people that know they want high def won't get it from sd dvd.

Yes but the sooner the war is over the sooner we can get cheap players....

In as much as "stalemate" has a negative connotation, this is a bit of a loaded question. I don't care what happens to BD, I just want HD DVD to survive with full studio support. I'm not sure what answer that would be though.

Yes but the sooner the war is over the sooner we can get cheap players....

The very opposite may be true.

A stalemate would mean there is no mainstream adoption. Without mainstream adoption, retailerrs will lose interest, studios would lose interest, content will dry up, this would be a vicious cycle that will eventually kill off both formats.

It's good to take advantage of both camps pouring money in and all the price war mentality, but as soon as the cheap BD players show up, I think it's time for everyone to wrap this one up.

At this point, if the endgame is less than 2 years away, content drying up for one (or both ) is less than 2 years away.

Unless the B&M stock only a small shelf of HDM, I don't see how this can go on another 24 months, there's no scenario for shelf space in the B&M to expand for both formats, unless the B&Ms double their movie floorspace or they choose to stock less titles of both.

Besides, I really want to see Warner stop with this 10Mbps encoding nonsense and do what Disney and Sony have been doing --- use 30-40Mbps AVC or VC-1 encodes, fill up the entire BD50 with video, use that to discourage piracy instead.

The competition is good for consumers, certainly at this point at least.

Only if you think "good for consumers" only means "lowers prices without regard to format longevity". If a consumer wants a stable format that will get enough market penetration and last long enough to see all of our favorite movies released in HD, the format war is disastrous to the consumer and needs to end as soon as possible.

One thing I am interested in is what people who favor one format would like to happen if their format doesn't make it. Basically, would they prefer that the other format make it or that the other format also die. In this case I would expect most of those who favor one format to not want a stalemate as a 1st choice, but might want a stalemate (in the sense of both dieing) as their 2nd choice.

--Darin

My first priority is to not have a stalemate, to select a format and get on with it.


Bob

There are so many products that exist with 2 different formats, I don't believe that the alternatives are either "one wins or they both die". I think it's very possible for both to survive, particularly with the advent of cheap universal players.

I know it's really important to some people that the "other" format not exist. But it's not necessary.

Only if you think "good for consumers" only means "lowers prices without regard to format longevity". If a consumer wants a stable format that will get enough market penetration and last long enough to see all of our favorite movies released in HD, the format war is disastrous to the consumer and needs to end as soon as possible.

Yes but implicit in your logic is the assumption that the death of one format will lead to mass adoption of the other. What if the 'other' format remains niche anyway?

Was it worth putting the shaft to hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of consumers that bought into the obsolete format only to end up with a stronger niche anyway?

My first priority is to not have a stalemate, to select a format and get on with it.


Bob


Why do you even care? So long as the studios put out content, it shouldn't matter. Do you feel the same about Macs and PCs?

Why do you even care? So long as the studios put out content, it shouldn't matter. Do you feel the same about Macs and PCs?


Pretty different as both have extreme differences. Pretty bad anology if you ask me.

First and foremost I want a fast resolution. I'd far prefer to see HD DVD win outright then see a prolonged format battle that stops either from replacing DVD. But HD DVD has already lost that ability (without a series of near-miriculous moves up their sleaves in the immediate future). People who think the formats can coexist ala DVD-/+r (which are not DRMed media distribution formats) are living a fantasy that has no historical basis in the public response to media format wars.

Do I want a stalemate?

Yes I do.

It is good for the consumer (us) and it is not good for the CEM's. I love that concept!

So far it has:

1. Caused the price of players to fall dramatically in a super short period of time.
2. Caused the studios to stop offering junk titles and get some good ones out.
3. Caused the BDA to switch over from MPEG2 to AVC and VC1 encoding
4. Caused Sony to "recall" a marginal to poor transfer (The Fifth Element) and retransfer it and provide an exchange for free (unheard of)
5. Stopped Sony's desire to "replace DVD in three years" (still laughing about that one)
6. Sales on movies like buy 1 get 1 free and buy 2 get 1 free(BD)

NONE of this would have happened if we only had 1 format. None of the above happened when DVD was introduced with it being the only format. I still have that stupid window boxed DVD of Blade Runner that I bought with my 1st DVD player ($800) on launch date.

Competition is healthy . . . for the consumer. :D

Do I want a stalemate?

Yes I do.

It is good for the consumer (us) and it is not good for the CEM's. I love that concept!

So far it has:

1. Caused the price of players to fall dramatically in a super short period of time.
2. Caused the studios to stop offering junk titles and get some good ones out.
3. Caused the BDA to switch over from MPEG2 to AVC and VC1 encoding
4. Caused Sony to "recall" a marginal to poor transfer (The Fifth Element) and retransfer it and provide an exchange for free (unheard of)
5. Stopped Sony's desire to "replace DVD in three years" (still laughing about that one)
6. Sales on movies like buy 1 get 1 free and buy 2 get 1 free(BD)

NONE of this would have happened if we only had 1 format. None of the above happened when DVD was introduced with it being the only format. I still have that stupid window boxed DVD of Blade Runner that I bought with my 1st DVD player ($800) on launch date.

Competition is healthy . . . for the consumer. :D

The war or stalemate has been very good for the consumer.

Now that we have cheaper players and better releases why don't we try for mass adoption so we can get more releases?

The war or stalemate has been very good for the consumer.

Now that we have cheaper players and better releases why don't we try for mass adoption so we can get more releases?

Pick a thread - we are discussing the exact same thing on two different thread. This one or the other one?

Pick a thread - we are discussing the exact same thing on two different thread. This one or the other one?

That's different, there is it the war is/isn't over and decided, here it is if the war needs to continue ;)

I say it isn't over but it is closer than it was before blockbuster's announcement, and the war isn't necessary anymore because it has already improved both formats.

Wow, a dramatic shift in public opinion on AVS. It wasn't to long ago that HD DVD would dominate any "format war" poll no matter how ridiculous the premise. (i.e. I wouldn't be shocked if there was a "What has better PQ, Spartacus or PotC: DMC?" poll on AVS and Spartacus "won".)

That's different, there is it the war is/isn't over and decided, here it is if the war needs to continue ;)

I say it isn't over but it is closer than it was before blockbuster's announcement, and the war isn't necessary anymore because it has already improved both formats.

But I want the prices to continue to drop for players.

And I want the quality of transfers to be their very best.

Both may end if BD takes over because if you look at the list - most of the items are directed to the BDA.

The war or stalemate has been very good for the consumer.

Now that we have cheaper players and better releases why don't we try for mass adoption so we can get more releases?

Is BD best positioned for mass adoption? It certainly seems positioned best for big industry adoption but the mass market may have different ideas.

For example, with no software compatibility BD will require replacement of all DVD players, not just the ones in the main home theater. I could certainly see BD getting a big spike and becoming a stronger niche but it presents additional hurdles after the initial surge of fence buyers is spent.

Then there's the gamer market, where there has been mass adoption history, but currently PS3 is not positioned to take that market as it's predecessor did.

As for content will smaller studios, replicators and other content providers jump off dvd and onto bd much faster than they would in a 2 format HD market?

Is BD best positioned for mass adoption? It certainly seems positioned best for big industry adoption but the mass market may have different ideas.

A fair question.

For example, with no software compatibility BD will require replacement of all DVD players, not just the ones in the main home theater. I could certainly see BD getting a big spike and becoming a stronger niche but it presents additional hurdles after the initial surge of fence buyers is spent.

DVD wasn't compatible with VHS either, but that didn't stop it from replacing the latter. Blu-ray has a greater advantage (comapred to DVD) in that it's backwards compatible with DVD, so you don't have to replace your entire collection right away (and you can keep watcing your DVDs on other players in your household).

Then there's the gamer market, where there has been mass adoption history, but currently PS3 is not positioned to take that market as it's predecessor did.

Not really an appropraite discussion to get into on this board, but many people don't agree. Of course as players get cheaper and standalone volumes increase, it won't matter (to Blu-ray) if the PS3 regains the lead in the console market or not.

As for content will smaller studios, replicators and other content providers jump off dvd and onto bd much faster than they would in a 2 format HD market?

Obviously, because there will be faster market penetration once there is one format. Consumers will keep holding off mass adoption, regardless of price, as long as there is a format war. If one format becomes the defacto standard, this will no longer be a problem. The Blockbuster and Starz announcements go a long ways towards this in the public eye (especially the BB announcement...the Starz one just adds to the appearance of a domino effect).

Just like with DVD and VHS, it will take time for the defacto next gen format to actually replace DVD sales. The important thing is that the format war end with such a "defacto" format soon so the process of adopting it can speed up. Once that process starts it will be hard to cram HD downloads down our throats for a while, and smaller companies can jump into the fray with the promise that a BD disk crated today can continue to be sold for 5-10 years.

I voted - Prefer HD DVD, would prefer a stalemate.

To explain myself...
I have a 360 + HD DVD add-on, a PS3, and no HDMI receiver. If a movie comes out on both formats, for audio I can have DD+ or THD down-converted to DD/DTS using the 360, or pick between 2-channel PCM and sub-par imaging w/ DPLII or a legacy DD track on the PS3. PQ is so similar between the two formats, even with the nitpicking about tiny MBs in freeze-frame shots, that I'll take what gives me better audio. If the PS3 were to receive a re-encoder similar to the 360's that takes LPCM and converts it to DD/DTS for output, meaning I could get the lossless sound base track and still maintain the proper 5.1 soundstage, then it would be a draw.


As to why I want a stalemate...
There have been different audio formats for quite some time. On top of CD, we have DTS-A, DVD-A, SACD, etc. etc. Consumers haven't jumped on board, but for what titles are available, I am able to play them all in my universal player, a Denon 2910. And I specifically upgraded to the 2910 because I had just upgraded my speakers and sub and wanted an upconverting player that would play ALL of the different audio disc formats.

I don't care what format a movie is in, as long as I can watch it in HD and enjoy the improved PQ, AQ, and the cool interactive features. BD discs (currently) have better capacity, and HD DVD discs (currently) have better interactivity and features - and much more +s/-s on both sides. I don't see why the two formats can't co-exist, with affordable dual-format players.

At least that's my thinking right now for what I would want to happen.

But what actually happens I think will come down to two issues: cost of players and discs, because it has to be affordable enough for more people to buy it; and how much money the backers of each side pour into advertising and buying space at retailers (and now BB). I think both things have to be in line with one another. One side won't win just with huge marketing if the hardware is still out of reach for regular consumers, just as one side won't win with just affordable hardware and little marketing, being overshadowed by the other side.

I think a lot of people could care less about the format war, and many don't even know there is a format war. To them it's about those fancy-shmancy HD discs that cost way too much. Once the cost comes down and people can pick up a player for the same price or not much more than a regular upconverting DVD player (now the default player once you get above the $60 Walmart cheapy stuff), we'll see a lot more people taking the plunge. And once it's at that price point, we'll see Walmart and Target and other retailers carry more of it.

If you prefer HD DVD you should be hoping for a stalemate (imho) ;)

Yeah that's the best they can hope for, although it's one hell of a longshot IMO.

What about

"don't care about either format as if it is my child and do not want a stalemate"

I do not want a stalemate if it means it will kill HD on disc however, I do not have a preference for either format SINCE THEY DO THE SAME THING FOR ME which is provide me with HD goodness:)

A fair question.


DVD wasn't compatible with VHS either, but that didn't stop it from replacing the latter. Blu-ray has a greater advantage (comapred to DVD) in that it's backwards compatible with DVD, so you don't have to replace your entire collection right away (and you can keep watcing your DVDs on other players in your household).




The fact that the players play standard dvd's is good but is something that either format could do so it's better than dvd vs vhs in that respect, but not better than hd dvd for mass adoption since that format has both hardware and software compatibility. I would add the move to hdtv as a big + to help adoption of an hd formats though.

On the other hand DVD has more clear cut advantages over VHS with random access features, smaller form factor and better PQ/AQ along with more extras in general. Those features were particularly noticeable even to average consumers. BD has better PQ/AQ and better interactivity but the gap is much smaller.





Not really an appropraite discussion to get into on this board, but many people don't agree. Of course as players get cheaper and standalone volumes increase, it won't matter (to Blu-ray) if the PS3 regains the lead in the console market or not.

The console gaming market has now offically converged with high def video playback market, so I think it's pertinent. If PS3 were able to dominate sales the way the PS2 did then clearly the path to mass market for BD would be smooth. If PS3 is 3rd place then those gamers that don't buy PS3's as their console will have to make a seperate player purchase.

360 and Wii owners are that much more apt to settle down with their low priced DVD's and dvd players.

In the same vein if BD takes command then the PS3 get's a big leg up in the console race as well. Very much intertwined.



Obviously, because there will be faster market penetration once there is one format. Consumers will keep holding off mass adoption, regardless of price, as long as there is a format war. If one format becomes the defacto standard, this will no longer be a problem.

Agreed, if the market penetration moves fast enough then sure most smaller providers and replicators will have no choice but to pony up and jump on the bandwagon.

That comes back to just how long it would take BD to penetrate sd dvd market. If it takes a long time, the vast majority of content will remain where it is, sd dvd only. No doubt we'll see more BD content but how much more than what dual format owners would have seen anyway?



Once that process starts it will be hard to cram HD downloads down our throats for a while, and smaller companies can jump into the fray with the promise that a BD disk crated today can continue to be sold for 5-10 years.

HD downloads will have their own attraction anyway for those that can use it.

It may be 'hd-lite' but from what I've seen on Xbox live (and PS3) if they ever come up with an ownership model rather than strictly rental they'll be very attractive regardless of what optical does.

"Stalemate" leads to dual format players ending the war. I can live with that.

Perhaps the HDDVD supporters cant even force a stalemate. So be it.

In either case, I will need to buy a new player so it is irrelevant to me.

One of the reasons it would be better to just have blu-ray is no sloppy ports made in mind with HD-DVD's lower abilities on bandwidth. Sure some titles may do seperate encodes (it has happened already) to give blu-ray the treatment it deserves but without HD-DVD we wouldn't even have to worry about that, just create one transfer optimized for blu-ray's superior abilities.

One thing I am interested in is what people who favor one format would like to happen if their format doesn't make it. Basically, would they prefer that the other format make it or that the other format also die. In this case I would expect most of those who favor one format to not want a stalemate as a 1st choice, but might want a stalemate (in the sense of both dieing) as their 2nd choice.

--Darin


I prefer a single format. I happen to own both formats. I would be disappointed to see an inferior format backed by a relative minority of the industry (movie, CE devices, PC, and consumers' desire as per disc sales) take over when the disc prices are the same and the hardware devices are getting close, but I'd prefer one of these two formats take over for DVD than Microsoft's or Apple's best laid plans of PC mice and digital regimen.

"Stalemate" leads to dual format players ending the war. I can live with that.

I think that is a myth. "Stalemate" leads to HD media being abandoned in favor of downloads or portable media (non-HD). "Universal" SACD and DVD-A players did nothing to save that market, and I doubt it will help HD optical media. People do not want a format war, they don't want to have to wonder whether the red or blu "version" of the movie is the one to buy, they just want a single format to be the next gen format.

One of the reasons it would be better to just have blu-ray is no sloppy ports made in mind with HD-DVD's lower abilities on bandwidth. Sure some titles may do seperate encodes (it has happened already) to give blu-ray the treatment it deserves but without HD-DVD we wouldn't even have to worry about that, just create one transfer optimized for blu-ray's superior abilities.


So what are the chances that many titles will be on the cheaper to make 25G Blu-ray disk esp. once the hd dvd competition is not a factor to compete against?

I love the way many people assume 50G will be used for everything on BD even when there is no more high def competition. 50G and high bandwidth is great but a simple fact is that in many movies we'll be getting 5G less capactiy with hd dvd gone.

As it stands now I suspect the hd dvd competition has pushed BD to better quality releases.

On the other hand DVD has more clear cut advantages over VHS with random access features, smaller form factor and better PQ/AQ along with more extras in general. Those features were particularly noticeable even to average consumers. BD has better PQ/AQ and better interactivity but the gap is much smaller.

I don't disagree with you here, which is why I think we'll see advanced interactivity get pushed a lot harder once the format war is resolved since it's the main "new" part of the hi-def disk experience, beyond just improved PQ & AQ. Disney in particular has a lot of interest in this, and I think it will do more to convince parents to invest in HD optical media than the image quality itself, but not until the format war is over (some dads may shamelessly use DIsney advanced interactivity as a screen for their home theater ambitions...good luck to them!)

That comes back to just how long it would take BD to penetrate sd dvd market. If it takes a long time, the vast majority of content will remain where it is, sd dvd only. No doubt we'll see more BD content but how much more than what dual format owners would have seen anyway?

100% agreed. But penetration will not happen without resolving the format war, so first things first. The sooner BD can concentrate on taking market share away from SD DVD, the better for all of us.

It may be 'hd-lite' but from what I've seen on Xbox live (and PS3) if they ever come up with an ownership model rather than strictly rental they'll be very attractive regardless of what optical does.

They won't come up with an ownership model, because 1) that would make it much harder to enforce copyright law (you can back up things you own), and 2) they want the extra revenue streams that come from making people pay for something every time they use it.

So what are the chances that many titles will be on the cheaper to make 25G Blu-ray disk esp. once the hd dvd competition is not a factor to compete against?

I love the way many people assume 50G will be used for everything on BD even when there is no more high def competition. 50G and high bandwidth is great but a simple fact is that in many movies we'll be getting 5G less capactiy with hd dvd gone.

As it stands now I suspect the hd dvd competition has pushed BD to better quality releases.

And to redo those that even the BD supporters said looked terrible like The Fifth Element.

And have a free exchange program - something that was never done with a fully functioning disc. There were no problems where the disc didn't play or got hung up due to a manufacturing mistake - just a bad transfer, which we have seen, bought, accepted and warned others to avoid.

I am not sure Sony would have done this without the pressure from HD DVD.

100% agreed. But penetration will not happen without resolving the format war, so first things first. The sooner BD can concentrate on taking market share away from SD DVD, the better for all of us.



This could pan out that way at the end of the day, I won't claim to know, but I do see that it's not the slam dunk many early adopters seem to assume it is for BD to take off and be better than a dual format world.

1) I own both formats thru 360 and PS3 and I feel pretty sure that as a year one adopter I would have paid about as much for one standalone player as I did for both the PS3 and 360/addon if there were no format war. One format would not have helped me there as a consumer.

2) Between the 2 formats I can buy anything that comes out in high def, so one format is only going to help if a lot more choices open up on the one format that dual format would have opened up. I'd like to see how smaller content providers react.

3) Consumers have dvd players in laptops, every room, van etc. They'll need to start buying 2 copies of movies or limit their viewing to the main theater, unless BD studios want to start packing in a standard dvd with their movies.

The real problem with 2 formats is not that it can't work, it does work in other industries, such as video games. The issue is that the industry wants one format, regardless of whether that actually benefits consumers or not.

I have BR. I like BR. Naturally, I want BR to win, and I don't want a stalemate.

HOWEVER.... I just want one format to win, period. If BR tanks tomorrow, I'll whip out my Visa card and get me an HD-DVD player. I'm a BR guy just because I see that as the format with the future, but if I'm wrong about that, it's no big deal.

The war or stalemate has been very good for the consumer.

Now that we have cheaper players and better releases why don't we try for mass adoption so we can get more releases?

If the stalemate continues, there probably won't be any mass adoption.

I prefer a stalemate, at least for awhile to drive down prices and limit nasty copy protections. But I didn't vote because I'm more or less neutral at the moment on formats.

- Tom

If the stalemate continues, there probably won't be any mass adoption.

There isn't going to be mass adoption anyway until HD displays have been adopted en-masse.

HD media adoption is not going to follow SDDVD patterns - it will be slower maybe even much slower than SDDVD adoption...

But I want the prices to continue to drop for players.

And I want the quality of transfers to be their very best.

Both may end if BD takes over because if you look at the list - most of the items are directed to the BDA.
you can bet if the BDa does win, that the competition will grow more inhouse for sure. Pioneer still will want to sell more BD players than Panasonic etc etc.

I also prefer a stalemate for the competitive costs and copy protection-limiting reasons.

you can bet if the BDa does win, that the competition will grow more inhouse for sure. Pioneer still will want to sell more BD players than Panasonic etc etc.

Pioneer's new player is $999

Panasonic's "new" player is $599 with 5 good BD's right in the box.

What was that again?

Interesting results, almost 100% of BD owners want one format, 50% of HD-DVD owners want a stalemate.

There isn't going to be mass adoption anyway until HD displays have been adopted en-masse.

HD media adoption is not going to follow SDDVD patterns - it will be slower maybe even much slower than SDDVD adoption...

A report in the UK said that 2/3rd's of TV's in peoples homes will be HD ready by the end of the year.

There isn't going to be mass adoption anyway until HD displays have been adopted en-masse.

HD media adoption is not going to follow SDDVD patterns - it will be slower maybe even much slower than SDDVD adoption...
I agree wholeheartedly. Also, the high prices of HD DVD/BD (hardware) relative to SD DVD has held adoption back IMO. I don't think the format war has held that many folks back who want to watch HD. I think the above reasons are more compelling. The lower prices as a RESULT of the format war has compelled some people in earlier than they would otherwise.

Interesting results, almost 100% of BD owners want one format, 50% of HD-DVD owners want a stalemate.

Well last year when HD-DVD had the lead the chanting from HD-DVD fans was much different, its like the Cav's hoping for a tie against the Spurs ;)

Well last year when HD-DVD had the lead the chanting from HD-DVD fans was much different, its like the Cav's hoping for a tie against the Spurs ;)
I will say this is the first time I've seen a neutral poll on AVS where Blu-ray has garnered more positive votes than HD DVD. As mentioned previously, this seems to be a sea change here on the forums.

I personally own and like Blu-ray, but am not so attached to the format that I wouldn't go buy an HD DVD player if things turn out with HD DVD assuming mass market control.

Still, a long-term stalemate is not the answer. It may benefit the consumer in the form of lower pricing in the short term, but it also tests the patience of the companies involved. I would much rather pay somewhat higher prices in the short term to ensure that no one drops completely out of the market. Imagine how devastating a blow it would be if Blockbuster had instead announced that they would be dropping all of their high definition content for rental, for instance. Given the relative infancy of both formats, that sort of thing could still happen if the potential profit no longer outweighs the aggravation and expense.

Agreed Icemage, good points. Though I do think I saw another poll from last week where blu-ray came ahead as well.

Don't care, I own both and what ever happens happens, we will know eventually. In the meantime any HD movie out there is available to me.

I'd rather have studio neutrality, gives me the consumer the option to choose what film I want on what format I want (ala Warner, Paramount). Never going to happen so I'll stick with HD DVD.


Exacally my thoughts. ;)

Well last year when HD-DVD had the lead the chanting from HD-DVD fans was much different, its like the Cav's hoping for a tie against the Spurs ;)
Oh jeez what a horrible analogy. :rolleyes:

dudes,right from the beginning everybody said bd wil win.hd has been the underdog.and still to this day,lot of talk no real answers.bd cant get hd off there back,can they. lets face it these 2 formats are out to win the public over. hd dvd has 7 titles tomorrow june 26 bd ...none. granted 2 of the titles are x combo discs now hd dvd only,and the rest hd dvd only.correct that dead silence is a combo.id say hd dvd is not laying down.what we have to say about all of this means noting,it only matters what the bda and hddvd forum is doingyou can say what you want but in the end all we can do is watch and buy

dudes,right from the beginning everybody said bd wil win.hd has been the underdog.and still to this day,lot of talk no real answers.bd cant get hd off there back,can they. lets face it these 2 formats are out to win the public over. hd dvd has 7 titles tomorrow june 26 bd ...none. granted 2 of the titles are x combo discs now hd dvd only,and the rest hd dvd only.correct that dead silence is a combo.id say hd dvd is not laying down.what we have to say about all of this means noting,it only matters what the bda and hddvd forum is doingyou can say what you want but in the end all we can do is watch and buy

Last week HD DVD had 0, not 0 exclusive but 0.

This week BD has 0 exclusives, and let me tell you, there is a big difference in 0 exclusives and 0.

HD DVD has a huge advantage this week, but BD is not 0.

Oh jeez what a horrible analogy. :rolleyes:

Yet still better than your sig :p

I checked about 1/2 of the "Blu-ray, no stalemate" poll takers - at least 1/2 a dozen had zero posts. Many had less than 10 posts...Check it out for yourselves...

This despite the fact that their join date was 2005, 2002, 2006, etc.

How strange. :confused: Or maybe not. :rolleyes:

couldn't vote...I don't prefer one over the other...I just want a stalemate so we can have dual format players and get on with it already :)

I checked about 1/2 of the "Blu-ray, no stalemate" poll takers - at least 1/2 a dozen had zero posts. Many had less than 10 posts...Check it out for yourselves...

This despite the fact that their join date was 2005, 2002, 2006, etc.

How strange. :confused: Or maybe not. :rolleyes:
Don't you have anything better to do with your time than cook up yet another wild conspiracy theory? ;) Seems like people on both sides of the fence here are so shellshocked from the past year or two of arguing that they're jumping at shadows.

One thousand polls at a niche forum will not turn the tides of the war.

I'm baffled that ANYONE (other than Microsoft) would want a stalemate but it makes sense that quite a few people on the HD DVD side want it.

There is nothing positive about a stalemate. Costs are already down, QC is already up... what more do you want?

A stalemate is the worst possible outcome of the format war. I'd rather see HD DVD win than have a stalemate....

I prefer HD.

Yet still better than your sig :p
Actually expressing my great appreciation for excellent HDM is more worthwhile than 99% of the junk 99% of the people here are busy mewling about.

Though I'm not especially surprised that somebody like yourself wouldn't see it that way. For example I'm sure you saw this poll and couldn't vote fast enough in your glee, while I couldn't care less, and am happy to have as much HD as possible.

If you feel I've miscategorized you, please accept my sincere apologies...

Actually expressing my great appreciation for excellent HDM is more worthwhile than 99% of the junk 99% of the people here are busy mewling about.

Though I'm not especially surprised that somebody like yourself wouldn't see it that way. For example I'm sure you saw this poll and couldn't vote fast enough in your glee, while I couldn't care less, and am happy to have as much HD as possible.

If you feel I've miscategorized you, please accept my sincere apologies...

I wouldn't want you to have to apologize to a non-HD-DVD owner now, that would be silly ;) We can just leave the incorrect assumptions as they are :)

I wouldn't want you to have to apologize to a non-HD-DVD owner now, that would be silly ;) We can just leave the incorrect assumptions as they are :)
:confused:

Wow, I really have no idea what you're talking about, but you seem to think you're being rather clever so I'll let you enjoy yourself.

Damn people get weird over pieces of plastic and metal...

I want HD, but I want a stalemate.

I own both formats, and enjoy both. That said, there is only one major studio not supporting Blu-Ray and many not supporting HD DVD. At this point and time it just seems logical that Universal will go neutral and Blu-Ray would have full major studio support. I prefer this to happen over having to support two formats indefinitely.

:confused:

Wow, I really have no idea what you're talking about, but you seem to think you're being rather clever so I'll let you enjoy yourself.

Damn people get weird over pieces of plastic and metal...

Really it shouldn't be that hard to follow unless somebody hi-jacked your account earlier ?

I do agree, some people get weird (could explain the above " :confused: " :)

I really don't care who wins and I currently own an HD-DVD player? Why?

...in the end, it is the same money out of my pocket. I could have bought a BD player for $700+ back in March or $250 for the HD-DVD player. I rent most of my media, so there won't be a big outlay there. I figure at least 2 years of HD-DVD media being made and longer available for rent.

If HD-DVD fails, by that time BD players should be $250 or less and I'm out $500 for 2 players as opposed to BD now and out $700.

What does this mean? In the long run, I will save money and get to enjoy HD movies now!

A stalemate would mean there is no mainstream adoption. Without mainstream adoption, retailerrs will lose interest, studios would lose interest, content will dry up, this would be a vicious cycle that will eventually kill off both formats.



I don't understand how anyone can expect there to be widespread mainstream adoption for this stuff.

Do you guys not realize that the extra 5% visible performance upgrade is not what mainstream consumers care about.
And if you are going to quibble about the 5% figure, do some of your own blind tests with men (and women) off the streets.

A/V Quality is a niche concern- it's why Sony instituted a line of branded "Superbit" discs- to appeal to the consumer who actually goes out and buys based on quality.

If you guys think that at some point you won't have to pay some kind of premium for HD compared to DVD then you are off your nuts- and while there is a premium difference, the 'mass market consumer' will always choose the cheaper option- as long as it is acceptable quality- which DVD well is.

BD, no Stalemate!

I don't understand how anyone can expect there to be widespread mainstream adoption for this stuff.

Do you guys not realize that the extra 5% visible performance upgrade is not what mainstream consumers care about.
And if you are going to quibble about the 5% figure, do some of your own blind tests with men (and women) off the streets.

A/V Quality is a niche concern- it's why Sony instituted a line of branded "Superbit" discs- to appeal to the consumer who actually goes out and buys based on quality.

If you guys think that at some point you won't have to pay some kind of premium for HD compared to DVD then you are off your nuts- and while there is a premium difference, the 'mass market consumer' will always choose the cheaper option- as long as it is acceptable quality- which DVD well is.

Why are you posting here exactly? You should go rewind some vhs or beta tapes and be happy that your apart of the "mass market consumer" group. Wait, you can't get vhs or beta tapes anymore!!!!! What happened to your theory? Did people actually appreciate a better product. Oh my, whats this world coming to.

I'm baffled that ANYONE (other than Microsoft) would want a stalemate but it makes sense that quite a few people on the HD DVD side want it.

There is nothing positive about a stalemate. Costs are already down, QC is already up... what more do you want?

A stalemate is the worst possible outcome of the format war. I'd rather see HD DVD win than have a stalemate....

You said it!

I don't know what kind of "stalemate" people are hoping for, but the most likely kind is where both formats just die off and people forget about hidef packaged media altogether.

I suspect that there are quite a few companies that would like this: Comcast and friends, DirecTV, Echostar, maybe Apple, apparently Microsoft, perhaps Amazon. All of the little companies that are trying to figure out how to make $$ out of downloads of movies.

It is hard for me to see participants of this forum in this category however.

Please explain your position if you a) would accept a stalemate, and b) want a nextgen disk medium. How do you think this will transpire?

Have HD DVD supporters really adopted a "down with the ship" attitude about this?

Wait, you can't get vhs or beta tapes anymore!!!!! What happened to your theory?

Sure you can, they are just not pre-recorded.

Advantages of DVD over tape that HD optical media won't have.
1) No quality loss over time and number of plays
2) Smaller size
3) Easier to store / move
4) Quality and clarity can be easily seen (especially versus older / much used tape)
5) Every set at the time DVD was released could playback a 480i signal. Okay there may have been some people in 1997 that were still watching B&W TV's, but probably less than 1%. To see the HD picture increase you must have an HD capable set...I don't know numbers, but I'd guess less than 30% of homes have HD sets and probably even fewer are totally HD (I.e. no SD / ED sets).

These are very strong advantages DVD had to help it become mainstream that HD Optical media does not. I can also see it being a niche product.

What real advantages does it have:
1) Improved picture quality with an HD set of the right size viewed from the right distance
2) Backwards compatible (which means that you still need new hardware, but have one less box under the TV).

Hmmm...

^^^Well, thanks to backwards compatibility, price lowering, and the fact that video on demand is at least 8 years tech-wise from even thinking about becoming a mainstream product - to some extent we can assume that in a few years, John "Six Pack" Doe will walk into a Walmart to replace his old DVD player and suddenly buy a HD media player (with SD playback as a legacy feature) by accident.

In that scenario the mainstream jumps aboard. I also have to assume that the mainstream is getting into HD in general with the growing popularity of highly visible HD-demanding products like the 360, the PS3, Superbowl/etc in HD, the Ipod-esque-cool factor of HD flat panels, etc.

I think it can happen. Call me an optimist...

^^^Well, thanks to backwards compatibility, price lowering, and the fact that video on demand is at least 8 years tech-wise from even thinking about becoming a mainstream product - to some extent we can assume that in a few years, John "Six Pack" Doe will walk into a Walmart to replace his old DVD player and suddenly buy a HD media player (with SD playback as a legacy feature) by accident.

In that scenario the mainstream jumps aboard. I also have to assume that the mainstream is getting into HD in general with the growing popularity of highly visible HD-demanding products like the 360, the PS3, Superbowl/etc in HD, the Ipod-esque-cool factor of HD flat panels, etc.

I think it can happen. Call me an optimist...

The scenario you mention is exactly what will happen.

Today, if you go to BestBuy or similar store, you will find that most TV's are HDTV's with HDMI inputs, and most DVD players are upconverters with HDMI outputs. You can still find an SD TV, but it is harder and harder. The $49 DVD players are still not upconverters (but all do have progressive scan output, a feature that used to cost thousands!)

Once the format war is shut down and adoption of the winning format increases, we will see an explosion in nextgen players. That is all you will be able to find at the store. I am guessing 2 years after end of the format war.

The competition is good for consumers, certainly at this point at least.

Some say DVD will provide the competition, but sd dvd is not the same type of competitive option since people that know they want high def won't get it from sd dvd.


Competition is good for consumers, but we don't have it. Data formats don't compete at the consumer level. We can't even get the early adopters to agree which one is 'better', much less the other 90% of the market who admits not knowing (by not buying).

If we had asked the consumer to pick between 2 broadcasts HD formats, we'd still be broadcasting SD IMO. The consumer will say, you're asking the wrong person, so I'll choose the third option (nothing / status quo).

Competition for data formats is most efficiently performed within the industry. This has been proven many times; IMHO

ken

I'm baffled that ANYONE (other than Microsoft) would want a stalemate but it makes sense that quite a few people on the HD DVD side want it.

There is nothing positive about a stalemate. Costs are already down, QC is already up... what more do you want?

A stalemate is the worst possible outcome of the format war. I'd rather see HD DVD win than have a stalemate....

Was wondering what I was going to say, but you said it all.

Where's the option for those who do not prefer one or the other and would like a stalemate?

I don't want either side to be making a killing off of royalties like Toshiba has with DVD. I think competing formats and studios is a good thing once dual format players become the norm. It would make HD-DVD and Blu-Ray more of a "branding" rather than a format. Studios choose a brand, customers buy, and the royalties are dispersed in a more equal fashion. This keeps costs down, and none of these corporations who couldn't come to a common agreement and offer a universal standard format to begin with will be getting rich off their greed. I hate all the companies involved who have taken sides. I appreciate Warner and Paramount who are ending up paying more to stay out of this fight and support both formats. I'm sick of all this bickering between foolish AVS consumers who take one side and cannot see they are getting played.

Why are you posting here exactly? You should go rewind some vhs or beta tapes and be happy that your apart of the "mass market consumer" group. Wait, you can't get vhs or beta tapes anymore!!!!! What happened to your theory? Did people actually appreciate a better product. Oh my, whats this world coming to.You call yourself a videophile? My Hollywood video still rents VHS. It wasn't until December of 2006 that the number of DVD players in USA households outnumbered VHS players. You can buy VHS tapes at just about any store. DVHS players offer quality video that rivals the best Blu-Ray and HD-DVD have to offer and they also can store 23 hours of recorded SD content or 4 hours of HD content per tape. How do you archive the Super Bowl in HD? Wanna say VHS is dead after you watch my copies of Star Wars in glorious 1080i recorded from HBO on DVHS? It looks a lot better than the best upconversion of the DVD. You can also still purchase Betamax tapes at several outlets online. Up until 2005, betamax was still widely used in the video production industry and even moreso in the audio production industry as a way to archive large amounts of high fidelity audio. Last I checked, DAT's were still widely used in radio. VHS would still be very popular if it wasn't for one thing..... and it's not DVD, it's the DVR.

Proud owner of JVC 30k & 40k DVHS, SLHF-750 Betamax, and HT7 Betamax. Don't tell me tape is dead. It's still very useful to many high end enthusiasts.

I've made the case before- it wasn't quality that supplanted DVD over VHS- it was convienence.

In every case of superior technology taking hold and usurping, it is because the new tech offers some convienence over the old. Consumers will pay for convienence- they won't neccessarily pay for quality (unless the two just happen to coincide - as was the case with DVD)

People have had portable music players for years. Why would they pay 2 to 3 times as much for an ipod which plays heavily compressed versions of the the cds they were formerly listening to in their walkmans?

The fact is- neither of these formats offers any convienence over traditional, widely available, and *cheap* dvds. And currently they are far more inconvienent due to pricing, available content, and the learning curve associated with the terminology. Thats whats holding this stuff back- not a format war.

And even when J6Ps dvd player breaks down and he picks up one with HD capability, there is just no guarantee he will then start buying the HD software in place of the cheaper and more ubiquitous sd dvds- much less going back and replacing his dvd collection en mass.

On the other hand, a lot of videophiles will.

I don't know what kind of "stalemate" people are hoping for, but the most likely kind is where both formats just die off and people forget about hidef packaged media altogether.

The chance of that is close to zero. The TV display standard is going towards 1080p simply because of the technology curve and various broadcast HD availability along with the analog cutoff. Meanwhile, sdtv looks pretty bad on big 1080p displays so people will gradually start to want better pictures and will start to notice the difference.

And I personally think buyers will continue to want tangible packaged media they can collect and hold in their hands. Download-to-burn may also get here some day but probably not soon. Buying solid things in stores is not really something that is on the way out yet.

- Tom

I've not voted as none of the options suit my thoughts.

A 'stalemate' implies fighting each other to a halt (bad thing).

I think the studios & co can come to a dual-format solution which suits both sides and all of us (good thing).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=865913

It's a shame that this has be dressed up as either one format wining or a 'stalemate'.

We appear to be very defeatist about this. Why not try being positive?

Steve W

I own both formats, and enjoy both. That said, there is only one major studio not supporting Blu-Ray...

You mean Fox? Drumroll... thank you very much, I'll be here all week! :p

You mean Fox? Drumroll... thank you very much, I'll be here all week! :p


Drrrrm-tshhhhhh! :D

Steve W

The chance of that is close to zero. The TV display standard is going towards 1080p simply because of the technology curve and various broadcast HD availability along with the analog cutoff. Meanwhile, sdtv looks pretty bad on big 1080p displays so people will gradually start to want better pictures and will start to notice the difference.

The TV display standard is moving to 1080P because of some very clever marketing by Sony and that LCD was able to do it across it's full lineup where PDP was all 1366x768 or less(2006). Asian CEM's love a numbers war - whose numbers are higher - ie - Contrast. As therei s only one source now for 1080P and for the foreseable future - HiDef Disc - how important is it really?


And I personally think buyers will continue to want tangible packaged media they can collect and hold in their hands. Download-to-burn may also get here some day but probably not soon. Buying solid things in stores is not really something that is on the way out yet.
- Tom

I would like to agree with you because so far this has proven out. But the trend to buy versus rent is changing. More and more people are renting. (rentals up 32% - sales down.

But yes - people have been conditioned since they bought their very first VHS tape to own their movies

I've made the case before- it wasn't quality that supplanted DVD over VHS- it was convienence.I agree. Other than recording ability, DVD offered much more over VHS than just better picture and sound. And honestly, with the older analog 4:3 sets, DVD didn't even really offer that much in picture improvement.

This is why the studios are putting such effort into enhancing the new formats through feature sets and interactivity. Something that by the polls around here, the average AVS poster doesn't care about, but something the studios are taking very seriously and something that might push the average consumer into the buy column instead of the not buy column.

I'm baffled that ANYONE (other than Microsoft) would want a stalemate but it makes sense that quite a few people on the HD DVD side want it.

There is nothing positive about a stalemate. Costs are already down, QC is already up... what more do you want?

A stalemate is the worst possible outcome of the format war. I'd rather see HD DVD win than have a stalemate....

Not directed at you in particular but people on this site seem to lack a good deal of patience.

I want to see that the formats continue to push one another.

There is still room for improvement. Costs will continue to go down. There is still room for improvement in QC.

We are still dealing with early generation players. Sorry, but neither format is quite ready for primetime yet. Nine months to a year from now that probably will be different.

HD displays still are only in a fraction of homes. If HD displays make their way into 50% of UK homes this year, well then good for the folks in the UK.

Downloading killing HD media is just hyperbole.

As I have said before in other threads, some people just don't care about HD in the way that many people on this site do. They consider what they have to be good enough. I have told my father that I am going to give him my 62" Mitsu 62725 when I get a projector a couple of years down the line - he tells me to keep my TV. Yes, he can see a difference. My sister just bought an HD LCD a few months ago and still has a regular subscription with COMCAST. Yes, I recocgnize that what I just said is anecdotal.

Perhaps stalemate is not the best word for what I would like to see. I don't think there is going to be mass adoption anytime soon even if there was just one format right now. Before the time the US goes all digital (which should give a real kick in the arse to force the US market into having a very high percentage of HD displays), I do think there will be cost effective dual format players in existance making the war irrelevant.

Regardless, in a year or two I see myself buying another player - either a BR player or a dual format player.

For full disclosure: I possess neither format yet, but I do have an XA2 on order. Makes good sense for me based on my tastes. The two critical features for me were/are upconversion and region-free. Of course, it also has the benefit of letting me enjoy some additional content in HD.

I don't see a stalemate as a viable solution - not if we want HD media for the years to come. I'm format neutral, so I can cope with either side "winning" though I may lean slightly toward BD, right now. That can change, day-by-day...

At the end of the day, my allegiance is to whichever side can put the content I want, into my hot little hands. Right now, BD is doing a slightly better job.

I don't understand how anyone can expect there to be widespread mainstream adoption for this stuff.

Do you guys not realize that the extra 5% visible performance upgrade is not what mainstream consumers care about.
And if you are going to quibble about the 5% figure, do some of your own blind tests with men (and women) off the streets.

A/V Quality is a niche concern- it's why Sony instituted a line of branded "Superbit" discs- to appeal to the consumer who actually goes out and buys based on quality.

If you guys think that at some point you won't have to pay some kind of premium for HD compared to DVD then you are off your nuts- and while there is a premium difference, the 'mass market consumer' will always choose the cheaper option- as long as it is acceptable quality- which DVD well is.
yeh and lets say down the road the studios decide nomore dvd,then what. i know the studios want hd movies to win over the public,its just a matter of time.sd dvd will go bye bye.

Can this be interpreted as about 50% of the HD-DVD supporters don’t think that their format can win outright?

Can this be interpreted as about 50% of the HD-DVD supporters don’t think that their format can win outright?

More like 50% of HD DVD supporters admit that they don't think their format can win outright. ;)