I am looking for some advice on how to make the bass response of my system more satisfying. I currently have a Denon 3805 in a 7.1 set-up with a pair of Boston Acoustics VR965s for mains, a BA VRC center and four BA Bravo IIs for surrounds. The BA VR965s have a 1inch tweeter, a 4.5inch mid-range and a side-firing 8inch subwoofer with a 75watt amplifier integrated into the speaker cabinet.

I used to run just he 965s from an NAD 3240 which recently bought the farm. The bass was very deep and satisfying and rarely required an adjustments.

I wanted an HT set up to go with my plasma about 18months ago, so I got the 3805 with the expectation that the subwoofer outs would enable even better bass with the 965s.

I have to say, for DVDs, the bass is fantastic. True rumbling and shaking with little to no distortion-- sometimes I adjust my SW levels on the 3805, but it is usually a small adjustment.

For music, I am completely annoyed. One track will be too boomy, the next too thin and I sit there trying to experiement between LFE+Main vs. LFE only, changing SW levels and mucking around with the equilizer settings until I get it right which doesn't make for a very satisfying listening experience.

So, what can I do? Is my set up screwed-up? I sometimes wonder if my BA VR965s have too much of a freq gap between the 4.5inch mids and the subwoofer (ie. upper bass / lower mid range is not well covered...)

Anyway, any guidance would be appreciated.

Your speakers do not have built-in subs, despite what BA calls them. They are woofers. With a 150Hz crossover built-in, the midrange will go no lower. So connecting the sub to the LFE outputs on the new AVR will create a gap between the mid and the woofer.

You need a real subwoofer set up separate from the BA VR965s.

Your speakers do not have built-in subs, despite what BA calls them. They are woofers. With a 150Hz crossover built-in, the midrange will go no lower. So connecting the sub to the LFE outputs on the new AVR will create a gap between the mid and the woofer.

You need a real subwoofer set up separate from the BA VR965s.

Thanks for responding. When you say they don't have built in subs, what do you mean? I understand the 8 inch diameter isn't that impressive, but they do have integrated amplication, and there are two of them (one in each speaker.) Why would a separate subwoofer help? I use them most on LFE+Main, per direction from BA customer service-- and the speaker is designed to direct everything below 150Hz to the woofers in addition to the LFE according to BA customer service. Either way, I'll experiement with another sub when can get one to try temporarily at home and see what that does.

http://www.bostonacoustics.com/newproduct/7565NPA.pdf

Thanks for responding. When you say they don't have built in subs, what do you mean? I understand the 8 inch diameter isn't that impressive, but they do have integrated amplication, and there are two of them (one in each speaker.)A subwoofer operates below the range of a woofer. If they are subwoofers, you don't have any woofers. So which is it? :D
Why would a separate subwoofer help? I use them most on LFE+Main, per direction from BA customer service-- and the speaker is designed to direct everything below 150Hz to the woofers in addition to the LFE according to BA customer service. Either way, I'll experiement with another sub when can get one to try temporarily at home and see what that does.

http://www.bostonacoustics.com/newproduct/7565NPA.pdf Yeah. I read the user's manual. The reason I say this is that interactions between the bass management of the AVR and the frequency distribution of the BA are not ideal. If you set the BAs to be "Large," you have no bass management and if you set them to "Small," there's a disconcordance between the crossovers. I am afraid that this speaker configuration (uses also by Polk) is just odd when applied to bass-managed MCH systems. That's why you find bass-management tricky.

And in addition to Kal's usual intelligent answer, be aware that for the most part, the "rules" of "movie" mixing (Dolby and THX levels, etc) are MUCH more tightly adhered to than the lack of rules present in the 'regular' audio world (i.e. rock n roll...) where most music CD's are all over the map as far as bass and level goes, and yes, you pretty much must adjust everything on a per-album basis, if not a per-song basis.

A further extrapolation of this subject opens up many messy cans o' worms, from the most basic philosophies of recording and mixing, to the dark cult of mastering engineering, with everything in between.

Look at it this way: the fact that you have to adjust "things" means you are becoming more a part of and closer to the music...

Barry

If you don't want to use a subwoofer, you should set up your receiver as having NO SUB (the front speakers will then default to LARGE) and connect the speakers entirely at speaker level, the way you connected them to your NAD; do NOT connect the "subs" to the subwoofer out on the receiver. You'll get much better performance out of the speakers this way. The LFE will be properly re-routed by the receiver to your front speakers and their built-in crossover will decide what to pass off to the "subs". Voila! Bass management no longer "tricky". You won't have to adjust a thing, except the speaker's own "subwoofer" level control (if it has one). Adjust them the same way you did with the NAD.

I am looking for some advice on how to make the bass response of my system more satisfying. I currently have a Denon 3805 in a 7.1 set-up with a pair of Boston Acoustics VR965s for mains, a BA VRC center and four BA Bravo IIs for surrounds. The BA VR965s have a 1inch tweeter, a 4.5inch mid-range and a side-firing 8inch subwoofer with a 75watt amplifier integrated into the speaker cabinet.


Anyway, any guidance would be appreciated.


Where is the .1 speaker (AKA dedicated subwoofer)?

Just run your R & L mains as large, all other speakers as small, and LFE and redirected small bass will be sent to the R & L mains.

Now perhaps I am missing something in your VR 965 hookup method, but is it not treated same as large speaker?

http://www.bostonacoustics.com/Manuals/965975Man.pdf

There is no note of the specific crossover frequency to the built in subwoofer in the manual.

Where is the .1 speaker (AKA dedicated subwoofer)?

Just run your R & L mains as large, all other speakers as small, and LFE and redirected small bass will be sent to the R & L mains.

Now perhaps I am missing something in your VR 965 hookup method, but is it not treated same as large speaker?
His speakers allow him to connect the powered "subs" to a receiver's low-level subwoofer output, if desired, thereby "uncoupling" the "sub" section from the rest of the speaker. Most speakers with built-in powered subs allow this. Definitive Technology's powered towers, for example. Years ago, I had some Polk powered towers that allowed this. With my Polks, you removed some jumpers if you wanted to run the speaker this way. So, he's been running his receiver as having a sub and he has the lower powered section of each speaker connected to his receiver's sub out.

You can see that I recommended what you recommended: connect the entire speaker at speaker level and set the receiver up as having NO SUB.

His speakers allow him to connect the "subs" to a receiver's low-level subwoofer output, if desired, thereby "uncoupling" the "sub" section from the rest of the speaker. Most speakers with built-in powered subs allow this. Definitive Technology's powered towers, for example. Years ago, I had some Polk powered towers that allowed this.

I recommended what you recommended: connect the entire speaker at speaker level and set the receiver up as having NO SUB.


Yes, but what crossover frequency is used internal to the speaker, and does it mate with the receiver's crossover frequencies? You also loose "stereo" bass if you connect those speakers to the subwoofer output jack.

We agree, just treat the speaker as a large speaker, and set the subwoofer output jack to OFF or NONE.

Yes, but what crossover frequency is used internal to the speaker, and does it mate with the receiver's crossover frequencies? You also loose "stereo" bass if you connect those speakers to the subwoofer output jack.

We agree, just treat the speaker as a large speaker, and set the subwoofer output jack to OFF or NONE.
The crossover that the speaker's upper section has to the lower, powered section is not used as you remove some jumpers or flip a switch. Of course, there's still the same low-pass and high-pass filters utilized with each section. But the speaker level connection only feeds and drives the upper section of the speaker, the sub output feeds the lower section.

Regarding the receiver's own crossover settings in this scenario, yes, EXACTLY, that's why he thinks bass management is so "tricky". Set them as LARGE, NO SUB, and be done with it.

Yes, he "looses" his stereo bass below the receiver's crossover setting in that sort of setup. (But, of course, so does everyone who conventionally runs their speakers as SMALL with a single subwoofer.)

Yes, he "looses" his stereo bass in that sort of setup. (But so does everyone who conventionally runs their speakers as SMALL, with a single subwoofer, for that matter.)


That's why I run my mains as large, and fill in the bottom end with the subwoofer (crossed at 50 Hz). Not much stereo bass below 50 Hz, and you can't tell the difference between coherent and incoherent bass at those frequencies either.

That's why I run my mains as large, and fill in the bottom end with the subwoofer (crossed at 50 Hz). Not much stereo bass below 50 Hz, and you can't tell the difference between coherent and incoherent bass at those frequencies either.
I hear ya. :)

There is no note of the specific crossover frequency to the built in subwoofer in the manual.True but it is in the advertising sheet referred to earlier. 150Hz.

True but it is in the advertising sheet referred to earlier. 150Hz.


If the receiver in question was capable of crossing at 150 hz, I am not sure how good it is to layer a 150 Hz crossover over a 150 Hz crossover anyhow.

It is best to keep it simple - treat those speakers as large with no subwoofer. No thinking required.

By the way, woofer and subwoofer terminology is a matter of semantics. The crossover frequency would be the determing factor the way I look at it. Some people think that unless you are flat to 15 Hz, that you don't even have a real subwoofer in your system!

If the receiver in question was capable of crossing at 150 hz, I am not sure how good it is to layer a 150 Hz crossover over a 150 Hz crossover anyhow.

ZinMe COULD run his setup with the "subs" connected to his sub out and the upper section of speakers run as SMALL with a 150Hz crossover. Yeah, not sure what the 150Hz/150Hz would do.

But that's essentially the same thing as simply running his speakers completely speaker-level, set as LARGE, with NO SUB.

Wow, thanks for the advice, I cam to the right place!. I'll try this and report back. One question though- if I go large, no LFE and disconnect the RCA to the speaker subwoofer output, will I be losing the subwoofer track on HT 5.1/6.1 source?

Wow, thanks for the advice, I cam to the right place!. I'll try this and report back. One question though- if I go large, no LFE and disconnect the RCA to the speaker subwoofer output, will I be losing the subwoofer track on HT 5.1/6.1 source?
No.

You won't go "no LFE"; the setting is "NO SUB".

Once "told" that you have no subwoofer, the receiver will then properly re-route ALL of the LFE to your front speaker outs.

It is best to keep it simple - treat those speakers as large with no subwoofer. No thinking required.Agreed.

I played around with the settings tonight but with the kids asleep I had to keep the volume at relatively low levels. I'll have to expirement another time at higher volume.

When I turned the sub off, there was a trade off. The bass was cleaner and less boomy but also less robust, so I went into my my manual EQ and configured a "loudness"-like pattern which helped. I did not achieve really robust bass, but it was cleaner and more consistent track to track. I also turned up the levels on the speakers, but doing so beyond the "12 o'clock position generated too much boominess. Nevertheless, I would imagine that with a true subwoofer, the whole range would be excellent.

When I switched from Stereo mode to DolbyPLXII Music mode, the bass was almost non-existent... although I don't care that much because I don't listen to music in this surround mode. I didn't get a chance to run a DVD with a 5.1 track, but I imagine it would sound equally bad. It would be a fairly easy exercise however to restore the subwoofer setting to "ON" when I'm watching DVDs/HDTV. Of course if I get a subwoofer, that wouldn't be necessary.

For my finale, I tried setting the subwoofer "ON", confirgured the fronts to "small." and set the crossover at 150Hz per the other suggestion above. At first it was a little too strong on the bass, but when I switched to DIRECT mode which killed by quasi-loudness equalizer settings, it sounded EXCELLENT. Strong smooth base and I beleive I had better clarity/imaging in the highs due to use of direct mode??? (On one track, the bass was a bit boomy, but I was able to make is sound smooth by nudging the cross-over freq to 120MHz.) Anyway, I'm puzzled by this because theoretically, it should sound the same as turning the sub off with the fronts set to LARGE, right? Who knows what the bass managment in the VR965s is doing... if you read the paper on it, it isn't clear what exactly is going on.

More fun to come tomorrow when I try to DVDs and try music an louder volumes. Also more fun to come when I obtain a true subwoofer...

Two questions:

(1) Any hypothesis as to why small + 150Hz cross over was the best set-up?

(2) Any recommendations of a subwoofer for my set up for less than $500?

When I turned the sub off with LFE+Main, there was a trade off. The bass was cleaner and less boomy but also less robust, so I went into my my manual EQ and configured a "loudness"-like pattern which helped. This was the best of all the configurations I ran. I did not achieve really robust bass, but it was cleaner and more consistent track to track, and I would imagine that with a true subwoofer, the whole range would be excellent.
When you set the receiver up as having NO SUB, the LFE+Main settng won't even be available to you in the receiver's setup menus. If the LFE+Main setting is available, you've done something wrong, and the receiver is not set up as having NO SUB. Do you understand how to set the receiver up as having NO SUB?

And you shouldn't really have to EQ anything to get decent bass when you use your speakers for 2-channel music listening. You simply adjust the volume knobs for each speaker's "sub" section until the bass level is where you like it; the same way you adjusted the bass when they were simply connected to the NAD. Adjust the bass to your liking with 2-channel music and it should be good for movies, too.




When I switched from Stereo mode to DolbyPLXII Music mode, the bass was almost non-existent... although I don't care that much because I don't listen to music in this surround mode. I didn't get a chance to run a DVD with a 5.1 track, but I imagine it would sound equally bad. It would be a fairly easy exercise however to restore the subwoofer setting to "ON" when I'm watching DVDs/HDTV.
No. When you set your receiver up properly, with NO SUB, then everything else should fall into place. You shouldn't even have the RCA cables connecting the receiver's sub out to your speakers' lower sections, anymore.




(1) Did I set my AVR correctly to generate the best sound?

If you did what we said to do and you did it correctly, then the answer is yes. But something tells me you've not done this correctly.

When you set the receiver up as having NO SUB, the LFE+Main settng won't even be available to you in the receiver's setup menus. If the LFE+Main setting is available, you've done something wrong, and the receiver is not set up as having NO SUB. Do you understand how to set the receiver up as having NO SUB?

And you shouldn't really have to EQ anything to get decent bass when you use your speakers for 2-channel music listening. You simply adjust the volume knobs for each speaker's "sub" section until the bass level is where you like it; the same way you adjusted the bass when they were simply connected to the NAD. Adjust the bass to your liking with 2-channel music and it should be good for movies, too.

No. When you set your receiver up properly, with NO SUB, then everything else should fall into place. You shouldn't even have the RCA cables connecting the receiver's sub out to your speakers' lower sections, anymore.

If you did what we said to do and you did it correctly, then the answer is yes. But something tells me you've not done this correctly.

Ok- see my updates above. My typo- when the sub was off there was no LFE+Main option to select, I just checked that. Regarding the equilizer bass boost vs. adjusting the levels on the speakers, when I turned the levels on the speaker beyond the 12 Oclock position, it started sounding boomy. I had better results keeping it below 11, and increasing the bass freq in the equilizer.

On PLXII it occurs to me that perhaps my equalizer settings only were applied to STEREO mode and not PLXII-- I'll have to check that.

Regardless, I also tried your suggestion from above running the fronts as SMALL + sub ON + 150Hz cross-over and it worked very well. Sub ON + FRONTS SMALL + 10 OClock on the Speaker level + DIRECT (no EQ) + 150HZ Cross over was the winner.

Regardless, I also tried your suggestion from above running the fronts as SMALL + sub ON + 150Hz cross-over and it worked very well. Sub ON + FRONTS SMALL + 10 OClock on the Speaker level + DIRECT (no EQ) + 150HZ Cross over was the winner.
The best way to run those speakers is with the receiver set up as having NO SUB, which will defauilt the sepakers to LARGE. Then you'll have to use each speakers' bass (or "sub") level adjustment knob to get the sound correct with a 2-channel music source. Then the rest (i.e. DD/DTS 5.1 playback) will fall into place.

That's the advice we've all given you. You can use it or not.

Attaching the speakers' "sub" section to your receiver's sub out, setting the speakers to SMALL, and setting the receiver's crossover to 150Hz is essentially the same thing.

Attaching the speakers' "sub" section to your receiver's sub out, setting the speakers to SMALL, and setting the receiver's crossover to 150Hz is essentially the same thing.


Except that you can never get stereo bass under any circumstances. 150 Hz on down is pure mono.

In addition, if you have an option like analog direct, BM is turned off and the R & L speakers are treated as large (AKA no bass at all via subwoofer output jack).

That's the advice we've all given you. You can use it or not.


I can see I've tested you patience too much.

I did have a chance to try the above at moderate / high volume levels. What i found is that there is little to no difference between the three options (Use sub "ON" + 80Hz cross + LARGE vs. sub "ON" + 150Hz cross + SMALL vs. sub "off") I do need to tweak the level on the subwoofer to get things in balance in each set up, but after that, the sounds is basically the same across all options. I'm not sure why I heard a difference at lower volumes.