http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=268

Come'on Fox! Let's get some titles out there!

How is this a good thing? or any DRM for that matter.

DRM


If this was BD Profile 2.0, I'd cheer.

Does the good news ever stop coming?!?!?!? Not only will this cement Fox and Disney in Blu-ray's corner, it may also attract other studios to Blu-ray as well, that is assuming BD+ isn't cracked quickly.

~Josh

Josh,

This isn't the big news, is it? Even though it's awesome.

BD+ was inevitable. I can't believe that people complain that BD+ wasn't here yet, and the second it comes, people complain.


Who cares about piracy with BD anyway at this point? Do you honestly look forward to downloading 50gb movies?? Just buy the movies you like, when was that an HD/BD problem before?

that is assuming BD+ isn't cracked quickly.

~Josh
as soon as the first bd+ disc is out it will be cracked in under a month, I guarantee it.... especially since blu ray is gaining popularity.

Now we get to see how long it will take before BD+ is cracked. I wonder what will happen then?

Josh,

This isn't the big news, is it? Even though it's awesome.

Who Knows ;)

~Josh

Who Knows ;)

~Josh


What time can we expect the announcement tomorrow? Thanks for your help!

How is this a good thing? or any DRM for that matter.
What's wrong with DRM? It means you have to buy the movie instead of stealing it? :cool: Or is it about the whole managed copy thing?

as soon as the first bd+ disc is out it will be cracked in under a month, I guarantee it.... especially since blu ray is gaining popularity.I think there is a good chance you are right, but I want to see it out there just so that question gets answered. At least then people could make decisions based off what happened instead of just speculation about whether it will be useful to the studios or not and what it will do. I think that those hoping for an HD DVD win should be hoping that BD+ isn't successful, because if it works well then it will be tougher to keep Universal exclusively on the HD DVD side.

--Darin

Does the good news ever stop coming?!?!?!? Not only will this cement Fox and Disney in Blu-ray's corner, it may also attract other studios to Blu-ray as well, that is assuming BD+ isn't cracked quickly.

~Josh

Only you see the continued erosion of fair use a good thing. The best the rest of us can hope for is it being hacked/cracked quickly.

What's wrong with DRM? It means you have to buy the movie instead of stealing it? :cool: Or is it about the whole managed copy thing?

Managed copy is a fraud. :(

Who Knows ;)

~Josh


I'll take that as a yes, as you were quick to dismiss the Anchor Bay bit of press as your big scoop.

Only you see the continued erosion of fair use a good thing. The best the rest of us can hope for is it being hacked/cracked quickly.

How does BD+ restrict fair use?

Josh,

I thought it was going to be an announcement of an exclusive movie coming to blu-ray? The BD+ news is great, don't get me wrong.

How does BD+ restrict fair use?

Fair use=backups
BD+=no backups without breaking the DRM which is breaking the law.

Now what will Fox use as an excuse? Just gimme my Die Hard already...

Fair use=backups
BD+=no backups without breaking the DRM which is breaking the law.

Backups as fair use is arguable. In any case, were backups ever intended by studios in any of the previous and current generation optical media? Have you been backing up your HD DVDs lately?

Master and Commander
I, Robot
ID4

Something like that.

Have you been backing up your HD DVDs lately? You can, but you have to break the law to do it. This isn't an attempt to defend HDDVD for doing the same thing. It was a conversation about BD+.

People aren't cheering because of BD+. I could care less about BD+, but if it allows for Fox and MGM to start releasing movies.... Go BD+!!! :)

ID4 better be ready for July 3rd.

Sweet, sweet news.

People aren't cheering because of BD+. I could care less about BD+, but if it allows for Fox and MGM to start releasing movies.... Go BD+!!! :)

ID4 better be ready for July 3rd.

They could have released movies all along and could have done so by respecting their customers.

How long before we start getting incompatibilities due to this? You'd think they'd test, but we've all seen how these companies don't.

I hope this means I can look forward to Silence if the Lambs again.

How long before we start getting incompatibilities due to this? You'd think they'd test, but we've all seen how these companies don't.

They've certainly had ample opportunity at the Panasonic Hollywood labs.
I expect the 3rd Gen Panny to be a real beauty.

People want to do **COUG**Backup **Cought Rent and Copy*** Cought.. Oh i mean backup.. LOL! I know so many people that rent movie from those Automatic Machine, if you ge the movie back in 3 hours it's 99cent.. so they copy it in 15 minutes and return it.. LOL!

as soon as the first bd+ disc is out it will be cracked in under a month, I guarantee it.... especially since blu ray is gaining popularity.

Their will be "CLAIMS" it was cracked in a month thats for sure..

BD+ was inevitable. I can't believe that people complain that BD+ wasn't here yet, and the second it comes, people complain.


Who cares about piracy with BD anyway at this point? Do you honestly look forward to downloading 50gb movies?? Just buy the movies you like, when was that an HD/BD problem before?

Using up as much space on a 50G disc as possible for the movie is just one more reason for Studios to put high bit rate encodes on Blu-Ray discs. Even if BD+ is cracked, it'll be more inconvenient to make copies.

This announcement is probably timed to coincide with that Blu-Ray anniversary coming up. Hopefully, Fox et al have already thoroughly tested this and have production runs already running for new movie releases.

Managed copy is a fraud. :(Absolutely!

I can't wait till this gets cracked too!

Now we get to see how long it will take before BD+ is cracked. I wonder what will happen then?


BD+ is a disc by disc protection system. You crack one, the next one is completely different to crack. I dont think its meant to stop piracy, its meant to slow it down drastically since its not like AACS which is the same protection on every disc (as evidenced by hd-dvd's new AACS keys being cracked before the discs even hit retail shelves). Ontop of all this, you STILL cannot press fake blu-ray discs like you can DVD or HD-DVD for that matter. ROM-Mark has been there since day 1 and makes it impossible for chinese companys to mass produce fake blu-ray discs via pressing machines, like they do today for DVD. That is a huge incentive for the studios.

ROM-Mark has been there since day 1 and makes it impossible for chinese companys to mass produce fake blu-ray discs via pressing machines, like they do today for DVD. That is a huge incentive for the studios.Somebody here claimed that they could mass produce them via pressing machines that would mark them as BD-REs, but I haven't heard whether that is possible or not.

As far as BD+ I think few people know what it really is (I don't) and it seems possible that there could be a fatal crack for it that would keep it from being useful even with changes on a disc by disc basis.

--Darin

Josh,

I thought it was going to be an announcement of an exclusive movie coming to blu-ray? The BD+ news is great, don't get me wrong.

I am being told that tomorrow's annoucement will be of a major movie release or two. Perhaps Spider-Man Trilogy? Perhaps LotR? Perhaps Star Wars? Perhaps Kill Bill 1+2, Pulp Fiction, Sin City, Cars, The Rock, Crimson Tide, Con Air? Who Knows ;)

~Josh

Somebody here claimed that they could mass produce them via pressing machines that would mark them as BD-REs, but I haven't heard whether that is possible or not.

As far as BD+ I think few people know what it really is (I don't) and it seems possible that there could be a fatal crack for it that would keep it from being useful even with changes on a disc by disc basis.

--Darin

Well, not every player plays BD-RE's (firmwares can disable or enable playback of them) so its not a 100% guarentee thing for the mass market piraters to do.

And i dont know the specifics of BD+, but it is 100% updateable as they go forward. So perhaps it will go stronger as time goes on? Who knows.

I am being told that tomorrow's annoucement will be of a major movie release or two. Perhaps Spider-Man Trilogy? Perhaps LotR? Perhaps Star Wars? Perhaps Kill Bill 1+2, Pulp Fiction, Sin City, Cars, The Rock, Crimson Tide, Con Air? Who Knows ;)

~Josh

I'm going to sleep now and am going to dream about all those things happening.

Cars, The Rock, Crimson Tide, Con Air? That would be more like a re-announcement, wouldn't it? Hope it's better news than those titles.

I think there is a good chance you are right, but I want to see it out there just so that question gets answered. At least then people could make decisions based off what happened instead of just speculation about whether it will be useful to the studios or not and what it will do. I think that those hoping for an HD DVD win should be hoping that BD+ isn't successful, because if it works well then it will be tougher to keep Universal exclusively on the HD DVD side.

--Darin

And if it doesn't work? Will BD exclusive studios then feel free to go neutral? Maybe the hackers at MS will be responsible for cracking it. :D

Cheers,

Grant

as soon as the first bd+ disc is out it will be cracked in under a month, I guarantee it.... especially since blu ray is gaining popularity.

Heh, bookmarking this. Will we be told when BD+ is implemented though, or will that be revealed somewhere?

You guys are such a bunch of wankers.

I will never support the advancement of any copy protection. It is created by evil corporations.

Remember Fox and Disney's support of DIVX

Remember Sony's Rootkit.

BD+ is just another on the long list of ways to limit the consumer in their purchase.
They want it so people can't backup their discs because they know one day discs will be obsolete. Then they want to sell you the movie again as a download.

BD+ will fail just like all the rest of them.

Does the good news ever stop coming?!?!?!? Not only will this cement Fox and Disney in Blu-ray's corner, it may also attract other studios to Blu-ray as well, that is assuming BD+ isn't cracked quickly.

~Josh

Who cares. As long as it gets more HD titles out, sooner than later.

I am being told that tomorrow's annoucement will be of a major movie release or two. Perhaps Spider-Man Trilogy? Perhaps LotR? Perhaps Star Wars? Perhaps Kill Bill 1+2, Pulp Fiction, Sin City, Cars, The Rock, Crimson Tide, Con Air? Who Knows ;)

~Josh

Thanks Josh. PLEASE LET IT BE 'SIN CITY.' Thanks again for including that title as a possibility.

I give BD+ less than 15 days to be completely bypassed just like AACS.

Granted we have to have a disk out on the street before that happens. Oh wait, AACS v3 was bypassed 2 weeks before street release.

And if it doesn't work? Will BD exclusive studios then feel free to go neutral? Maybe the hackers at MS will be responsible for cracking it. :DMicrosoft has some of the best hackers anywhere. :)

If BD+ doesn't work, then it will answer the question for any studio considering it a positive for Blu-ray. At least they would then be basing decisions on reality instead of guessing on this issue, which I would consider a good thing.

--Darin

Microsoft has some of the best hackers anywhere. :)

I find your statement rather funny coming from a person living in Seattle. Any insights? ;)

Once a single copy his b*ttorrent, the floodgates open.

I hope this means Fox and Disney releases will pick up.

Yeeesssss!!!!!! Alright
:) :) :) :) :p :p :p
This is Great news!!!!
More Copy protection-sweee.....
Wait a minute...

What the hell is wrong with you people?

Do you all own your own film studios???

Yeeesssss!!!!!! Alright
:) :) :) :) :p :p :p
This is Great news!!!!
More Copy protection-sweee.....
Wait a minute...

What the hell is wrong with you people?

Do you all own your own film studios???

The great news IS NOT that there is more copy protection. The great news is that it is ready, and Fox/MGM/Disney pulled catalog titles until it was ready. So regardless of what we think of BD+ or DRM in general, without it, we are without Fox/MGM/Disney releases. So people are happy about THAT. As the kids say: "Don't get it twisted."

Yeeesssss!!!!!! Alright
:) :) :) :) :p :p :p
This is Great news!!!!
More Copy protection-sweee.....
Wait a minute...

What the hell is wrong with you people?

Do you all own your own film studios???

I dont own my own studio but I do by my own legal american made discs and play them on my legal players so it really doesnt affect me one bit.

The great news IS NOT that there is more copy protection. The great news is that it is ready, and Fox/MGM/Disney pulled catalog titles until it was ready. So regardless of what we think of BD+ or DRM in general, without it, we are without Fox/MGM/Disney releases. So people are happy about THAT. As the kids say: "Don't get it twisted."

See, there's the problem. DO you really believe that without BD+ Fox wouldn't release movies? They still release DVDs, don't they? How secure are they?

BD+ is a disc by disc protection system. You crack one, the next one is completely different to crack. I dont think its meant to stop piracy, its meant to slow it down drastically since its not like AACS which is the same protection on every disc (as evidenced by hd-dvd's new AACS keys being cracked before the discs even hit retail shelves). Ontop of all this, you STILL cannot press fake blu-ray discs like you can DVD or HD-DVD for that matter. ROM-Mark has been there since day 1 and makes it impossible for chinese companys to mass produce fake blu-ray discs via pressing machines, like they do today for DVD. That is a huge incentive for the studios.

Your points is?
Each disc in AACS has a unique volume key. The first discs were compromised one by one. Later they found that the same processing key is used across multiple discs. Even without the processing key flaw discs could be compromised one by one.

If you think BD+ will do anything to slow you piracy then you simply haven't looked at history. Every disc has everything needed to decrypt the disc. It's like attaching the key to the lock and arguing how long it will keep thieves out of your house.

My money is that BD+ is broken within a month.

As the kids say: "Don't get it twisted."

The thread title is "BD+ is now available" with a thumbs up.

It might as well say "A stronger-better copy protection is about to be implemented" with a nice big positive thumbs up symbol.

Who's the one who is twisted?

See, there's the problem. DO you really believe that without BD+ Fox wouldn't release movies? They still release DVDs, don't they? How secure are they?

No one is putting a gun to Fox's head to release on blu-ray. I am happy as a clam that they are. They could skip it and go to downloads with lowbitrate 720p encodes and 128kbit DD 5.1 that sounds like crap if you'd be happier with that? Id rather have full 1080p goodness with LOSSLESS audio, thanks.

No one is putting a gun to Fox's head to release on blu-ray. I am happy as a clam that they are. They could skip it and go to downloads with lowbitrate 720p encodes and 128kbit DD 5.1 that sounds like crap if you'd be happier with that? Id rather have full 1080p goodness with LOSSLESS audio, thanks.
I refuse to sell my soul for a silver disc with a movie on it. YMMV

Once a single copy his b*ttorrent, the floodgates open.

Those who are adamantly against drm and antipiracy measures frequently cite such exuberance under the guise of being "pro-fair-use". However, it is comments like the above that cast serious doubt that this is all about fighting for our "fair-use rights", rather than the more obvious advocation of modern electronic looting.

If the only concern is to make "backups" of the disc you legitimately own, why would the state of any given title at "b*ttorrent" be of any concern? If the effect can be described as "floodgates open", then that seems to affirm there is a very real piracy problem.

Your points is?
Each disc in AACS has a unique volume key. The first discs were compromised one by one. Later they found that the same processing key is used across multiple discs. Even without the processing key flaw discs could be compromised one by one.

If you think BD+ will do anything to slow you piracy then you simply haven't looked at history. Every disc has everything needed to decrypt the disc. It's like attaching the key to the lock and arguing how long it will keep thieves out of your house.

My money is that BD+ is broken within a month.

I think anyone depending on BD+ is a fool. I am pretty sure Fox themselves know it will be cracked quickly. It is different then AACS as it doesnt have a master key for all discs. It is completely different per disc. We all know it will be cracked and quickly, but whatever it takes to get Fox/Disney/MGM back on the saddle.

I refuse to sell my soul for a silver disc with a movie on it. YMMV

I just dont know how to respond to that. Good day to you good sir!

It'll be interesting to see Fox's reaction to BD+, especially when it is cracked before August.

I dont own my own studio but I do by my own legal american made discs and play them on my legal players so it really doesnt affect me one bit.

I like how you slid "american" in there. Well, I'm glad you don't want to import since IF the copy protection is successful you won't be able to rip it to remove the region coding. But I see you already noticed that. I'm glad you're happy with having options removed.

For the record, I have legally purchased literally thousands of DVDs. But I also realize that any power the studios have over the consumer is power the consumer doesn't have. The region coding I just mentioned for one. Second, if a friend of mine has copy of an out-of-print impossible-to-find disc I want, I couldn't just copy it. Third, what about media servers?

I think the Studios wants BD+ to be hacked. They want to see how AACS work in conjunction BD+ to rectify the situation.

On the possitive sie, we're about to see how dependent BD+ is on AACS.

I dont own my own studio but I do by my own legal american made discs and play them on my legal players so it really doesnt affect me one bit.

Exactly.. All these scrubs talking about backing up their purchase are full of it. Once I purchase a Blu-Ray what do I have to back it up for? Unless you are using them for drink coasters or mini frisbees... I owned over 100 DVD's and never had to make a back up copy.. They were all in perfect shape when I sold them to a place in California that buys used DVDs a month ago. The majority of people that are complaining about not being able to make copies are the ones that try to sell those copies to others for $5.00....Thieves like that need to go find another job if the one they have is not paying them their desired income. People complain about DVD's being priced at $15 for new releases.. Did you ever think that maybe if the piracy was not so rampant and everyone actually purchased the DVD from the studios we would probably be paying closer to $8.00 for a new releases by now. :mad: (End Rant)

Exactly.. All these scrubs talking about backing up their purchase are full of it. Once I purchase a Blu-Ray what do I have to back it up for? Unless you are using them for drink coasters or mini frisbees... I owned over 100 DVD's and never had to make a back up copy.. They were all in perfect shape when I sold them to a place in California that buys used DVDs a month ago. The majority of people that are complaining about not being able to make copies are the ones that try to sell those copies to others for $5.00....Thieves like that need to go find another job if the one they have is not paying them their desired income. People complain about DVD's being priced at $15 for new releases.. Did you ever think that maybe if the piracy was not so rampant and everyone actually purchased the DVD from the studios we would probably be paying closer to $8.00 for a new releases by now. :mad: (End Rant)

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! yeah we'd really be paying $8 for new releases. Just like they said that Car Insurance would go down once all these mandatory safety laws requiring seat belts etc... went into effect. Anyways plz stop trying to generalize people. I own hundreds upon hundreds of DVD's but I still just burn a copy when I'm going on a trip or for the Kids and tell that little rant of yours about only pirates needing to "back up" a disc to the HTPC crowd and see how well that flies. :rolleyes: talk about ignorance.

Does the good news ever stop coming?!?!?!? Not only will this cement Fox and Disney in Blu-ray's corner, it may also attract other studios to Blu-ray as well, that is assuming BD+ isn't cracked quickly.

~Josh

What does your sources say regarding how long before it's cracked?

There are two kinds of people: one type will always be willing to pay for a product, no matter how easy pirating is; the other will expend enormous effort to pirate it, no matter how cheap it may be. It will ever be thus.

Studios and CE manufacturers should concentrate more on pleasing the category one individuals and less on the trying to thwart the pirates. At least, that's how it looks to me.

When downloads happen, and they will, I think the ability to make a back-up disc of the film you just purchased is a fair expectation. Based on the direction events are currently taking, I think the studios will fight it tooth and nail. They're far more concerned with pirates than honest consumers.

Does the good news ever stop coming?!?!?!? Not only will this cement Fox and Disney in Blu-ray's corner, it may also attract other studios to Blu-ray as well, that is assuming BD+ isn't cracked quickly.

~Josh

You must be smokin' something or being paid to call more DRM good news, pal. :rolleyes:
How TF is this good news for you? :confused:

I dont own my own studio but I do by my own legal american made discs and play them on my legal players so it really doesnt affect me one bit.


Is this some quote from American Chopper...? Or some FauxNews slogan?

I mean this level of idiocy appears to be unseen, a new low here...

...or he might be one of the hundreds of - YES, it's true, they are more than hundreds - paid RIAA/MPAA-shills, spamming online forums like this.

The Americvan part is even more retarded, there is no AM\merican made polayer and I highly doubt any of the discs were made here.
Utter ignorance at its best.

You must be smokin' something or being paid to call more DRM good news, pal.
How TF is this good news for you?

I want movies, studios give me movies, studios want this.

How is less DRM good news or how is more bad news?

You must be smokin' something or being paid to call more DRM good news, pal. :rolleyes:
How TF is this good news for you? :confused:

I buy my discs....this is what Fox wanted before they sold me their discs, thus im happy.

I actually buy my music too, support the bands i love, new Wilco, White Stripes, QOTSA and Pumpkins this summer, check it out.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! yeah we'd really be paying $8 for new releases. Just like they said that Car Insurance would go down once all these mandatory safety laws requiring seat belts etc... went into effect. Anyways plz stop trying to generalize people. I own hundreds upon hundreds of DVD's but I still just burn a copy when I'm going on a trip or for the Kids and tell that little rant of yours about only pirates needing to "back up" a disc to the HTPC crowd and see how well that flies. :rolleyes: talk about ignorance.

Please... save the excuses of why people "back up" a disc for the birds.. I have several friends who "back up" these disk and then loan them out to others and they make a copy.. and the cycle continues.. Every time we get on the subject I tell them they are losers for doing it and no better than someone stealing DVDs from the store. They think its not a big deal.. For every person that backs it up for their HTPC or other real reasons theirs about 20 that do it for the opposite. Thats why I said "majority" So if you believe the majority are making back ups for legit reasons then all I have to say is.. talk about being naive

I want movies, studios give me movies, studios want this.


Studios want money and control, that's all. Stop
spreading MPAA's utter lies, please.

What more movies have to do with more DRM?


How is less DRM good news or how is more bad news?

How could be giving up your legal, fair use rights is good news? People like you amaze me, seriously. It doesn't require a law professor to understand it...

Divx 2: Electric Boogaloo

Just sayin'.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! yeah we'd really be paying $8 for new releases. Just like they said that Car Insurance would go down once all these mandatory safety laws requiring seat belts etc... went into effect. Anyways plz stop trying to generalize people. I own hundreds upon hundreds of DVD's but I still just burn a copy when I'm going on a trip or for the Kids and tell that little rant of yours about only pirates needing to "back up" a disc to the HTPC crowd and see how well that flies. :rolleyes: talk about ignorance.


Not to mention you comparing Insurance companies to Movie studios being the biggest joke. Insurance companies are nothing but thieves themselves, people pay their premiums for a number of years then when finally some disaster happens they try to weasel out of paying your claim and you have to actually take them to court to get them to pay the claim.(Hurricane Katrina) I would put Insurance companies right under child molesters in the morality totem pole. At least with the Movie studios they sell you a product and its yours.. All they ask of you is not to make copies of their product and sell it or give to whoever you choose.. What's wrong with that?

Is this some quote from American Chopper...? Or some FauxNews slogan?

I mean this level of idiocy appears to be unseen, a new low here...

...or he might be one of the hundreds of - YES, it's true, they are more than hundreds - paid RIAA/MPAA-shills, spamming online forums like this.

The Americvan part is even more retarded, there is no AM\merican made polayer and I highly doubt any of the discs were made here.
Utter ignorance at its best.

What are you talking about? Im just tired of people wining about something that is only a problem for thieves and pirates. I go into walmart or Best buy and buy a movie and take it home and play it. What does BD+ or DRM have against that? Nothing? It doesnt affect me and the millions of other non-thieves out there at all.

Anything that gets the reluctant studios to start releasing movies on Blu-Ray is fine by me. I do not back up my DVDs or Blu-Rays and do not personally see a need to back up a $25 item. (Given the value of the A/V systems these little silver discs are being played on in this group, that cannot be a unique position.) I would like to see those studios release more of their catalogs so this silly format war will end in favor of Blu-Ray. (If it is to end quickly, it must end if favor of Blu-Ray given PS3 sales, disc sales, and recent news. I express no technical opinion regarding the virtues of either format.) Then we'll see prices drop, selection improve, and I'll be able to get all HD releases for a single HD player.

As to DRM, it amazes me that this forum tolerates no middle ground whatsoever. Either you're wantonly sharing hacked movies over the Internet or you're a studio shill. Those are not the only positions -- reasonable people can think that studios have a reasonable interest in trying to protect their investment and that consumers purchase a reasonable bundle of rights when they buy a CD, DVD, or Blu-Ray.

I owned over 100 DVD's and never had to make a back up copy.
I'm close to 7000 DVDs now, and there are approx. ~200 I wish I had backed up. Why? Because they don't play anymore due to rot. That's why.

Ha ha. Did anyone notice the verbiage used? "ensuring that studio content isn't copied for financial gain". Does that mean they know BD+ will or already has been broken and technically savvy J6P will be able to "back up" his disc to a HDD but pirate replicators will have trouble?

I've never poked around Blu-ray.com for long, but from the looks of the link, it's not an "official" site, it's run by fans? Is the "Josh" that posted the article the same "joshd2012" that posted here? Am I waaay behind the times? :o

Divx 2: Electric Boogaloo

Just sayin'.

Speaking of divx......

From the Freedom Vol 1 HD-DVD review at High Def Digest:

Finally, there is an option to access locked content and to download additional content if your HD DVD player is connected online. You can download the original Japanese TV commercial in standard definition, access the series' Prologue, and watch the trailer for the first episode.

Unfortunately, as I reviewed this disc the host server that houses the supplemental content for 'Freedom 1' was offline -- it's not scheduled to go live until the disc is released to the public. But even though I can't access the material yet, I still have some complaints.

My major issue is that if there is content already loaded on the disc, a user shouldn't have to acquire an online access key to view it. You've already shelled out your money and now you have to jump through hoops to get your money's worth -- it's not a process that respects our positions as fans.

Check it out yourself.

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/freedomvol1.html

Speaking of divx......

From the Freedom Vol 1 HD-DVD review at High Def Digest:



Check it out yourself.

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/freedomvol1.html

Yes, because anime will be the decisive factor. :rolleyes:

Studios want money and control, that's all. Stop


who doesn’t? and where did I say they don’t want either? At the end of the day they have what I want. It is as simple as that, and if they offer it at a price I am willing to pay then that is good

What more movies have to do with more DRM?

easy. Did you see how Universal stopped after AACS was cracked the first time? Did you see how Fox/MGMGH titles slowed down waiting for BD+?

How could be giving up your legal, fair use rights is good news?

so as long as my legally bought movie plays on my player I don’t care what DRM is on it.

CSS getting cracked really hurt DVD, didn't it? :rolleyes:

I'm close to 7000 DVDs now, and there are approx. ~200 I wish I had backed up. Why? Because they don't play anymore due to rot. That's why.


never had rot on a DVD, but did you try contacting the studio? Most have a replacement provisions

Please... save the excuses of why people "back up" a disc for the birds.. I have several friends who "back up" these disk and then loan them out to others and they make a copy.. and the cycle continues.. Every time we get on the subject I tell them they are losers for doing it and no better than someone stealing DVDs from the store. They think its not a big deal.. For every person that backs it up for their HTPC or other real reasons theirs about 20 that do it for the opposite. Thats why I said "majority" So if you believe the majority are making back ups for legit reasons then all I have to say is.. talk about being naive

Do you have numbers to back up your claim of "For every person that backs it up for their HTPC or other real reasons theirs about 20 that do it for the opposite" ???? Seriously, talk about generalizing. I have quite a few friends. Very few of them actually care enough to burn the damn disk let alone start on a crime wave of 1000's of dollars of pirated media stuck away in a closet :rolleyes: . Seriously, my point is made. Stop generalizing.

I am not, I am just not a crook like you obviously are so as long as my legally bought movie plays on my player I don’t care what DRM is on it. If I was a crook that wanted to DL stolen movies or do the rent and copy technique then I can understand how DRM would be considered a bad thing.


wow, talk about attacking the poster with 0 evidence :rolleyes:

never had rot on a DVD, but did you try contacting the studio? Most have a replacement provisions
Yes, I did. Some didn't reply at all, one or two I couldn't find contact details for and the rest told me I'm SOL because I live in Finland and imported their region 1 DVDs to region 2 country. I'm really pissed off at Anchor Bay, because they never replied to any of my e-mails, and quite a few of my rotted discs are their releases.

But on topic: I buy a lot of discs, so I don't have a problem with copy protection. I understand what they're for. (I also understand that in the end they're pretty much useless and a waste of money for the studios.) I will get very annoyed, however, if that same copy protection hinders my viewing experience in any way. DRM and copy protection have to be completely transparent to the end user.

as soon as the first bd+ disc is out it will be cracked in under a month, I guarantee it.... especially since blu ray is gaining popularity.I remember your words :D

Yes, because anime will be the decisive factor. :rolleyes:

Way to let it fly right over your head, kiddo.

CSS getting cracked really hurt DVD, didn't it? :rolleyes:In some countries it sure seemed to if we are talking about DVDs sold by the major studios. Unless the studios mostly missed out on some big markets because other protections didn't work either, but CSS working would have helped them sell their content. From what I've read they tried competing with the pirates and found that they mostly couldn't even if they dropped their prices way down. Sure DVDs are popular in some of those other countries so you could say that DVD was successful, it is just that the pirates are the ones selling most of the discs.

--Darin

You can, but you have to break the law to do it. This isn't an attempt to defend HDDVD for doing the same thing. It was a conversation about BD+.

If copy protection is already prevalent on both sides, then why do you, or anyone else for that matter, single out BD+? Hardly seems fair.

What is being avoided is the implications of this development - that BD is just about to get more releases.

As long as this doesn't effect the playability of movies on my BD player. I have seen copy protections on PC games make them unplayable on some PC's.

CSS getting cracked really hurt DVD, didn't it? :rolleyes:


Sales are slowing in 1st world nations. In third world nations, the studios don't even try to compete with the pirates who sell discs for a couple dollars, if that. So yeah, it's costing them money and costing them markets. More importantly, those markets are also missing out on releases from these studios, which causes the pirate markets to increase to make up for the lack.

DRM may not allow you to make backups at will, but it should have so-called managed copy if we believe both BD and HD DVD that it's coming. In the meantime, DRM gives studios like Fox and Disney comfort in the fact that their pristine, very master-like releases are not going to be pirated, then downcoded into all levels of encodes for every spectrum of the market to allow for pristine encodes from iPod level to the highest high def available. It's like turning over the Masters to the pirates. Studios don't want this.

The more secure they feel the format is, the more likely they are to trend toward it. The better the DRM, the more releases we get. Without DRM, why would the movie companies have any reason to migrate from SD to HD? If they're going to suffer from pirated movies on both formats, better to just stick with SD and lose less money.

And DVD's were not pirated this quickly in that format's life, were they?. Too much piracy this early in a format's life, in either format, could kill any motivation to support that format. But if DRM keeps the content secure, then those same movie companies see a format they can longterm use to distribute content without worrying about it being stolen or redistributed and they see a future.

I want more releases, not less. I don't care if DRM has to be there because I buy my discs, so it doesn't affect me. How specifically does BD+ DRM impact you as the consumer? What does it prevent you from doing that you need to do?

Backing up your disc is proposterous. Does anyone even have an HD DVD burner? And you might as well buy the movie twice than pay $20 for a BD-R or BD-RW media.

Exactly.. All these scrubs talking about backing up their purchase are full of it. Once I purchase a Blu-Ray what do I have to back it up for? Unless you are using them for drink coasters or mini frisbees... I owned over 100 DVD's and never had to make a back up copy.. They were all in perfect shape when I sold them to a place in California that buys used DVDs a month ago. The majority of people that are complaining about not being able to make copies are the ones that try to sell those copies to others for $5.00....Thieves like that need to go find another job if the one they have is not paying them their desired income. People complain about DVD's being priced at $15 for new releases.. Did you ever think that maybe if the piracy was not so rampant and everyone actually purchased the DVD from the studios we would probably be paying closer to $8.00 for a new releases by now. :mad: (End Rant)


Wow.

This kind of statement I only read about from MPAA or RIAA.

This fanboy pretty much insulted and called every HTPC users criminal.


Sometimes you gotta put certain members in you ignore list. There is only so much F.U.D. you can handle.

I find validity in what (makeussleep) said, so I guess I am an insultor as well. I see no reason to make disc copies. You buy them, watch them, and put them back in your case. If you scatch it, you replace it with a new one. I don't blame the studios for wanting to protect thier property as much as they can. If I owned their busiess, I'd do the same.

If you scatch it, you replace it with a new one.

That is exactly why we backup up our media to make sure we don't waste our money by puchasing the same title again.

I know purchasing multiple times, same title for you is easy since you have the financial means (not your fault). But to others . . . . . .

That is exactly why we backup up our media to make sure we don't waste our money by puchasing the same title again.

Or maybe if you purchase a BD movie you don't need to be afraid of scratching the disc and wasting money by purchasing it again or wasting money by making a backup :) The coating really helps.
I personally have no problem at all with DRM on the discs as long as it works without problems. Never had problems with DVD DRM, I hope BD DRM will be as "invisible" too.

That is exactly why we backup up our media to make sure we don't waste our money by puchasing the same title again.

I know purchasing multiple times, same title for you is easy since you have the financial means (not your fault). But to others . . . . . .

It has nothing to do with financial means. I'd be pissed if I had to rebuy a disc I scratched. But it is their property and if the average consumer could endlessly burn copies and potentially loan them to all their friends or sell them on the streets, it wouldn't be fair at all for the studios.

It is really difficult to scratch a disc to the point of non playability or skipping. It is like anything else, take care of it or pay the consequences..

Or maybe if you purchase a BD movie you don't need to be afraid of scratching the disc and wasting money by purchasing it again or wasting money by making a backup :) The coating really helps.

The only thing that will be damaged or lost is my backup discs and hard drives. The original will be safe and ready to be "backed up" again.

We have been doing this since CD-R recordable drives has become affordable.

It has nothing to do with financial means. I'd be pissed if I had to rebuy a disc I scratched. But it is their property and if the average consumer could endlessly burn copies and potentially loan them to all their friends or sell them on the streets, it wouldn't be fair at all for the studios.

It is really difficult to scratch a disc to the point of non playability or skipping. It is like anything else, take care of it or pay the consequences..

Difficult but possible not to mention getting lost or damaged. You can be the most careful person but the unforseen happens and a good backup is always a good thing.

Kinda like the data on our PCs . . . . . . . . . .

This fanboy pretty much insulted and called every HTPC users criminal.


You highlighted it perfectly.. I said "Majority" Do you think the "Majority" of the population has HTPC's? No.. Do you think 10% of the population has HTPC's? No.. If you don't use backups to sell or loan to friends then I am not talking about you. Don't know why you would be so offended if you were innocent..

Yes, but the data on your PC is what you have created...The discs are their creations.

It'll never happen, so it is a moot point. THe studios are hardlined advocates of protection.

Studios will obviously claim there is no valid need to make backup copies or rips of any kind.

Studios will also obviously claim they have an absolute right (legal and moral) and absolute need to copy protect things, even if it inconveniences the consumer.

I also think that, way deep down, studios believe each successive generation of new copy protection will actually both sell and work.

Probably all of these are somewhat true and somewhat not.

There is usually little that can be said to debate much of this since it is based upon need and not the observed facts. We will just have to let it play out (again).

- Tom

It'll never happen, so it is a moot point. The studios are hardlined advocates of protection.

Can't blame them for that. Unfortunately their so called "protection" has caused consumers grief and money. Sony CD copy protection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Sony_BMG_CD_copy_protection_scandal) that leaves your PC vulnerable to viruses and among other bad things that resulted in class action lawsuits and HDCP (http://www.drmblog.com/index.php?/archives/80_DTV_+_HDTV_+_HDMI_+_HDCP_+_DVI__BAD_DRM.html) and to which any AVS veterans need no introduction.

I'm done with that subject.



Anyways if this will result in Fox releasing more movies this year then its all good.

Bring on the BD+ and any of its future reincarnations and may we live all happily ever after.

You guys bitching and moaning about not making backups... Do you have kids? Do you have a mobile DVD player?

I backup my movies simply to remove all the bullsh!t advertising, previews, and menus I cannot skip on the DVD that I purchased and that I own. I did not pay for a movie to be forced to watch previews and advertisements. Further, have you ever tried to navigate a flippin DVD menu on a mobile DVD player in the backseat of your car while on an 8 hour drive? Also, its not possible to watch my daughter at every given second when she's watching a movie, so if a backup gets wrecked, who cares? Thanks to backups I am able to still watch three movies we own because my daughter decided one day to sneak into the DVD cabinet and see just how far a DVD can bend before it snaps *banghead*. There are many valid reasons to make backups of stuff that you own.

That said. This can't be the BIG news, is it? Seriously, we all knew Disney and Fox were in the blu camp, so I fail to see how this is really that big of an announcement.

In the meantime, DRM gives studios like Fox and Disney comfort in the fact that their pristine, very master-like releases are not going to be pirated ...

I wouldn't call the mastering efforts of MGM and Disney pristine as exhibited in this opinion piece (http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/s2242pan.html) . So long as a high definition release looks no better than the one got for $3 at some street market in SE Asia, the pirated one will continue to outsell the legitimate one.

Sales are slowing in 1st world nations. In third world nations, the studios don't even try to compete with the pirates who sell discs for a couple dollars, if that. So yeah, it's costing them money and costing them markets. More importantly, those markets are also missing out on releases from these studios, which causes the pirate markets to increase to make up for the lack.



Sales are slowing because many people got most of the DVD movies they want, most people have replaced their old VHS tapes with DVD copies. There are probably also some people waiting until the format war is over. At Wal-Mart the other day they had a copy of the Extended Version of Gladiator for $23, I didn't pick it up because I know it is an inevitable release for HD DVD/Blu-Ray.

Sales are slowing because many people got most of the DVD movies they want, most people have replaced their old VHS tapes with DVD copies. There are probably also some people waiting until the format war is over. At Wal-Mart the other day they had a copy of the Extended Version of Gladiator for $23, I didn't pick it up because I know it is an inevitable release for HD DVD/Blu-Ray.
I have had my home theatre set up only since April of this year, but I am glad to see there are others who think exactly like me. There are so many movies that I sit and stare at in the Wallyworlds etc. for less than $10.00 only to walk away knowing it will be in HD sometime in the future. It is enough to drive you crazy.

To the original topic here:

The studios have every right to try to protect themselves from pirated content on the internet. I just don't believe it will ever happen. Somewhere there is a 15 year old kid salivating, just waiting to destroy the protection that is supposed to be helped with this BD+.

I wouldn't call the mastering efforts of MGM and Disney pristine as exhibited in this opinion piece (http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/s2242pan.html) . So long as a high definition release looks no better than the one got for $3 at some street market in SE Asia, the pirated one will continue to outsell the legitimate one.
The only way this $3 disc looks better than an original HD disc from MGM or Disney is when... Wait a minute. It's impossible. At best it looks the same in some years when writable BR discs are very cheap and a direct digital pirate copy is put on it. Which is of course theft, plain and simple. And every studio has the right to try to stop this with technical means.
The sooner BD+ is here and Fox and MGM release again the better. I'm not interested in copying at all.

I am being told that tomorrow's annoucement will be of a major movie release or two. Perhaps Spider-Man Trilogy? Perhaps LotR? Perhaps Star Wars? Perhaps Kill Bill 1+2, Pulp Fiction, Sin City, Cars, The Rock, Crimson Tide, Con Air? Who Knows ;)

~Josh


It's a shame the annmouncment of BD+ can't be followed by a discusion about the great movies we may now see on Blu-ray, rather than tedious debates about the merits of copy protection.

Fact is without BD+ we won't see Fox titles of Blu-ray, we won't see them on HD-DVD, so put up with it or lump it!

The way I see it is that the movie studios have spent millions of dollars on producing these movies and optical discs and they have every right to try to protect this property to the best of their ability.

It is a fact that the studios lose millions of dollars in potential revenue due to piracy. Yes, there are a few out there who would have solid ethics and make a "back-up" copy for an ethically legitimate reason. However the VAST majority of "back-up" copies would be given/downloaded to first-time viewers of the movie who had no intention of or who never will legally pruchase the film.

An optical disc is nothing which needs to be backed-up anyway. The rot rate on optical media is obscenely low and that could be the only area where I see the studios having responsibility (If they warranty their optical media) but in situations such as scratches, etc, guess what? That is the owner's responsibility. I grow very tired that so often in this country we try to blame others for our own mistakes.

Hey if your child is playing around with a DVD and scratches it to kingdom-come, how is that Disney's fault? That's right, it's not. It is only the fault of the parent. If your child puts a baseball through your sliding-glass door, do you run back up to Home Depot and demand a free replacement?

It's as simple as this. If you take care of your optical media and treat it as it should be treated, you have abosutely NOTHING to worry about and absolutely no need for a back-up. I have several hundred DVD's, of-which some are more the 8 years old and I have always treated them responsibly and guess what? ZERO playback issues to this day.

Just My .02

~Josh

Okey FOX, it´s finally here.
Get off your lazy asses, NOW, before I´ll kill 10 cute little rabbits each day until you give us a new release list.

The fate of 10 extremely cute bunnies lies in your hands :D

...is that the sound of a FBI chopper I hear outside the window ;)

Now the big question, How long will it take for a hacker to break it? my guess is 3 months.

..

...is that the sound of a FBI chopper I hear outside the window ;)

I can't tell, a giant search light is blinding my view. :)

I think there is a good chance you are right, but I want to see it out there just so that question gets answered. At least then people could make decisions based off what happened instead of just speculation about whether it will be useful to the studios or not and what it will do. I think that those hoping for an HD DVD win should be hoping that BD+ isn't successful, because if it works well then it will be tougher to keep Universal exclusively on the HD DVD side.

--Darin

This is excellent point. Now that BD+ is out, it will be cracked in a few months and the subject will be over, peoples will stop discussing the potential benefit and how BD+ is an additional layer of protection etc...

I am being told that tomorrow's annoucement will be of a major movie release or two. Perhaps Spider-Man Trilogy? Perhaps LotR? Perhaps Star Wars? Perhaps Kill Bill 1+2, Pulp Fiction, Sin City, Cars, The Rock, Crimson Tide, Con Air? Who Knows ;)

~Josh


Yeah right!! man im sooo diddapointed, the titel is "immortal beloved" from 1994.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:


I wish it would be something bigger.
to make such a big deal about "immortal beloved" wtf were they thninking on blu-ray.com?

I am being told that tomorrow's annoucement will be of a major movie release or two. Perhaps Spider-Man Trilogy? Perhaps LotR? Perhaps Star Wars? Perhaps Kill Bill 1+2, Pulp Fiction, Sin City, Cars, The Rock, Crimson Tide, Con Air? Who Knows ;)

~Josh

Perhaps all of them... :D

Microsoft has some of the best hackers anywhere. :)

If BD+ doesn't work, then it will answer the question for any studio considering it a positive for Blu-ray. At least they would then be basing decisions on reality instead of guessing on this issue, which I would consider a good thing.

--Darin

Yes all the cards are now on the table.

Copy protection does not work in the long run, the real goal is to keep most people from bothering to copy.

Frankly as long as this gets us more releases I am all for it.

edit: removed double negative

Yes, the studios have the right to protect their intellectual property - I would think only a pirate would disagree.......................but the arguement against making copies is stupid. Please research the court decisions regarding "fair use". If they provide physical media that you own then you can back it up, it's just than simple.

The true delusion of the studios, a concept they can't seem to grasp is that piracy is unstoppable. It matters little to what extremes you go it won't matter - they will break it. A human can write it, a human can break it - it's just that simple.

The alternative to physcial media is "rental" - downloads which you do not own & therefore have no right to backup.......anyone want that?

How much does a disc cost to make? A couple pennies? If the "$2" guys are undercutting you then sell them for a buck - better breakeven than give them a market. Yes, I'm aware that means region coding........but I can live with that more than DRM up the wazoo (chiefly because the regions can be adjusted, i.e. region one is everywhere but XYZ where pirating is high).

Hey if your child is playing around with a DVD and scratches it to kingdom-come, how is that Disney's fault? That's right, it's not. It is only the fault of the parent. If your child puts a baseball through your sliding-glass door, do you run back up to Home Depot and demand a free replacement?

Thank you Josh. That's the exact same way I feel about it. I have three kids. They don't get to "play" with my BD's. In fact, I take the measure of locking them up so they don't have access to the raw discs. It's really that simple.

So let's say I have a disc go bad? I'll either buy a new one or contact the studio. That's the way it should be.

And for those whining about HTPC's, boo hoo. Cry me a river. What? You can't get off your lazy ars and put a disc in a slot to watch a movie? Come on. It's rediculous to demand that a studio allows their movies to be easily pirated so that you don't have to get up off the couch. By the way, I have a HTPC. I also have a media streaming server. On my media streaming server, I have the photos I've legally taken from my own digital camera and videos that I've taken and edited using my own digital camera and PC.

Thank you Josh. That's the exact same way I feel about it. I have three kids. They don't get to "play" with my BD's. In fact, I take the measure of locking them up so they don't have access to the raw discs. It's really that simple.

I'm certainly glad that you have the time to watch EVERY SINGLE move your child makes and that you have made it ever so convienient to get your own movies out to watch them by locking them up.

Simple as that, kids WILL find a way to get to what they want when mom and dad aren't watching. I did it, you did, my kids do it, your kids will do it, their kids will do it, and so on and so forth. If it weren't for backup's I'd be out $60 right now. The backups get made to go into the kids room so I don't HAVE to worry about the originals getting wrecked. You OWN the movie, you should be able to do what ever you want with it. If you can't see the valid reasoning here, then, well I just don't know what else to say.

He's talking about this news:

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=271

joshd2012,

Is this the 'big' news today?

From Blu-ray.com, yes. From Sony, no.

Is there is time planned for the press release?

BD+ was inevitable. I can't believe that people complain that BD+ wasn't here yet, and the second it comes, people complain.


Who cares about piracy with BD anyway at this point? Do you honestly look forward to downloading 50gb movies?? Just buy the movies you like, when was that an HD/BD problem before?

The issue is draconian DRM and lack of mandatory managed copy. As hard as it is for people to understand, at some point we are going to have cheap set top boxes that will be able to easily stream HD content from a portable disk drive or PC.

Much as people enjoy their MP3 devices and DVD changers for "conveniance" a set top box that you could use to access your favorite 100 titles would be a godsend for many (gets the movie cases out of the theater for one thing).

I'm rather disgusted that AVS enthusiasts jump up and down about a DRM announcement that is frankly anti-consumer.

I'm certainly glad that you have the time to watch EVERY SINGLE move your child makes and that you have made it ever so convienient to get your own movies out to watch them by locking them up.

Simple as that, kids WILL find a way to get to what they want when mom and dad aren't watching. I did it, you did, my kids do it, your kids will do it, their kids will do it, and so on and so forth. If it weren't for backup's I'd be out $60 right now. The backups get made to go into the kids room so I don't HAVE to worry about the originals getting wrecked. You OWN the movie, you should be able to do what ever you want with it. If you can't see the valid reasoning here, then, well I just don't know what else to say.

How many DVDs have you backed up? How much money, time and effort was put into saving that massive $60? :p Let's include the cost of the DVD burner, DVD-R's and your time.

It's not inconvenient for me at all to get my BDs out of "lockup". It take me less than 60 seconds to unlock the drawer, pull out the BD I want, open the case, put it into the PS3, put the case back into the drawer and lock it back. That's less time than it takes to boot up my PC, open a case of DVD-R's, open the DVD burner tray, slap down the DVD movie, start up the burning software, start the copy process, copy the data from the DVD movie to the hard drive, remove the DVD movie, put in a DVD-R, close the drive tray, let the burn complete, remove the DVD-R, label it.

Have you attempted to work with the studio to get a swap? To me, the time involved in making back-ups jusitifies trying with the studio.

From Blu-ray.com, yes. From Sony, no.

Also Buena Vista?

How many DVDs have you backed up? How much money, time and effort was put into saving that massive $60? :p Let's include the cost of the DVD burner, DVD-R's and your time.

It's not inconvenient for me at all to get my BDs out of "lockup". It take me less than 60 seconds to unlock the drawer, pull out the BD I want, open the case, put it into the PS3, put the case back into the drawer and lock it back. That's less time than it takes to boot up my PC, open a case of DVD-R's, open the DVD burner tray, slap down the DVD movie, start up the burning software, start the copy process, copy the data from the DVD movie to the hard drive, remove the DVD movie, put in a DVD-R, close the drive tray, let the burn complete, remove the DVD-R, label it.

Have you attempted to work with the studio to get a swap? To me, the time involved in making back-ups jusitifies trying with the studio.

No we're just arguing semantics. :p My PC is up 24/7, the backup application takes all of about 1/10th of a second to launch. I have two DVD drives in my PC (which I purchased for about $80 total), so I simply put it in, hit copy, and walk away. 20 minutes later it's done.

That said however, having a copy of the movie I own that I don't worry about is just a bonus to the primary reason I back them up. I'm TIRED of watching crap on a disc I can't skip and when we travel, I want to be able to put the movie in and have it start playing without having to worry about menus or the like. It's my movie that I bought with my money, and I did not pay to watch commercials or previews that cannot be skipped.

No idea. My guess is as good as yours. I would think that the big announcements may have already been uncovered (BD+ and Target) but that is yet to be seen. I imagine if they do a press release for BD+, it would be accompanied by Fox titles, but who knows. We are all waiting for the BDA to reveal their secrets.

What Target "announcement"?

Paidgeek said Target would announce they would only sell Blu-ray hardware. He is the one who said Blockbuster would expand Blu-ray support last week, which was confirmed on Monday. We are still awaiting that announcement, so that may be the big news.

I thought Plasman indicated that he had first hand knowledge of HD DVD orders in the Target system and plenty of Tosh hardware was on order.

Hmm.

I thought Plasman indicated that he had first hand knowledge of HD DVD orders in the Target system and plenty of Tosh hardware was on order.

Hmm.


Maybe theyll carry BR hardware only but both types of discs.

Seems like itd be harder to ONLY carry one type of format, but maybe not.

Target has BR and HDDVD on sale online, but both say that are not available in store. Would be nice to have only BR units instore. especially when the spending season gets here.

Paidgeek said Target would announce they would only sell Blu-ray hardware. He is the one who said Blockbuster would expand Blu-ray support last week, which was confirmed on Monday. We are still awaiting that announcement, so that may be the big news.

Can someone post a link to Paidgeek's actual quote? Thanks.

Ah thanks. Did not know that. Ive had my player for awhile, just now getting into the craziness that is HDDVD and BR.

Has anyone learned any more details on the specifications of BD+? Any of that leaked anywhere yet?
We are still talking about a virtual machine that can execute code on the local hardware yes? And transform the data stream?
I really don't want to have any partisan members bring on the FUD, but has anyone considered the various options that BD+ may deploy and whether or not those will be acceptable to enthusiasts?
Will BD+ allow studios to force an internet connection before playback of a movie at 1080p, otherwise only play downscaled, if at all?

The whole thing makes me nervous. :(

The music studios are already beginning to blink in the studio vs. consumer DRM struggle. Higher quality, DRM-free music is hitting iTunes from one major studio, and there are a lot of rumors others are to follow. These tracks can be easily converted to play on the device the consumer chooses, when the consumer wants. That's what happens when the consumer body collectively sticks up for itself and dictates to Hollywood what is acceptable, not the other way around.

How people here cheer at the arrival of more draconian DRM baffles me. Its as if they represent what I call the Vichy Consumer.

We will get our hidef, and we don't have to bend over to get it. That, for me, is the real 'format war.'

My question is: How long is is going to take hackers to break BD+ ? Is is going to be -1 week like the last security update? If we have learned anything from this, it is that it is going to be cracked and probably a lot sooner than the companies creating it would like. Certainly before Fox will have got round to releasing anything. I am in the US at the moment and am very tempted to pick up a Blu Ray player ($200 cheaper than in the UK and region A support) but if there are no Fox titles, I have little reason to pick one up.

Yes, the studios have the right to protect their intellectual property - I would think only a pirate would disagree.......................but the arguement against making copies is stupid. Please research the court decisions regarding "fair use". If they provide physical media that you own then you can back it up, it's just than simple.

The true delusion of the studios, a concept they can't seem to grasp is that piracy is unstoppable. It matters little to what extremes you go it won't matter - they will break it. A human can write it, a human can break it - it's just that simple.

The alternative to physcial media is "rental" - downloads which you do not own & therefore have no right to backup.......anyone want that?

How much does a disc cost to make? A couple pennies? If the "$2" guys are undercutting you then sell them for a buck - better breakeven than give them a market. Yes, I'm aware that means region coding........but I can live with that more than DRM up the wazoo (chiefly because the regions can be adjusted, i.e. region one is everywhere but XYZ where pirating is high).

Exactly my point.

My question is: How long is is going to take hackers to break BD+ ? Is is going to be -1 week like the last security update? If we have learned anything from this, it is that it is going to be cracked and probably a lot sooner than the companies creating it would like. Certainly before Fox will have got round to releasing anything. I am in the US at the moment and am very tempted to pick up a Blu Ray player ($200 cheaper than in the UK and region A support) but if there are no Fox titles, I have little reason to pick one up.

It'll be cracked within days of the first release that ships with it, and you can count on that.

I technically agree that you SHOULD be able to make a copy of something you own. That being said, one should not be able to rent a movie off Netflix and copy it for all their friends. This I do not agree with.

There is no way to differentiate between the two. Its the digital age, so people who want to make copies and people who want to pirate really should both get over it because you are one in the same as far as the powers that be are concerned.

I buy my discs....this is what Fox wanted before they sold me their discs, thus im happy.


And your point is...? :rolleyes:

I buy my DVDs too and make backups each and every one of them. IT IS MY RIGHT TO DO because they will never replace it when it dies or gets stolen, let alone that streaming from my NAS cannot scratch my discs.


I actually buy my music too, support the bands i love, new Wilco, White Stripes, QOTSA and Pumpkins this summer, check it out.

Cool, I buy my music too, without any kind of DRM. That's my point. I love indie, funk, all kind of music as long as it's not DRM-infected (eg CD, FLAC etc) and at least decent quality if compressed (256k and up in mp3-equivalent quality)- then I won't spend a cent on it. It's that simple.

mod

Please guys: carry on the discussion without attacking other members

Along the lines of restricting end use...

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=JHZA1UNFT14FWQSNDLSCKHA?article ID=199905551

Trying to put Kaleidescape out of business since their lawsuit against them didn't work.

RT

Along the lines of restricting end use...

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=JHZA1UNFT14FWQSNDLSCKHA?article ID=199905551

Trying to put Kaleidescape out of business since their lawsuit against them didn't work.

RT

that is really a shame

read this: K went out of their way to research this and tried do it right

http://www.darkreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=121884

Bring on the hackers! :D

I have found myself making backups of DVDs over the last year, mainly because the DVD Forum in all their wisdom made it attractive to do so. Since my HDTV doesn't have HDMI, I can't upconvert DVDs over component....unless I make a backup. Then it upconverts just fine. So the studios have actually encouraged me to make copies of DVDs, which I never would have done had they not slapped this artificial restriction on s-DVD.

Bring on the hackers! :DYou mean Fair Use Warriors..... ;)

Yes, the studios have the right to protect their intellectual property - I would think only a pirate would disagree.......................but the arguement against making copies is stupid. Please research the court decisions regarding "fair use". If they provide physical media that you own then you can back it up, it's just than simple.


If you want to have a backup you should buy 2 or 3 copies of the movie ... so says the studios I think.

If your child puts a baseball through your sliding-glass door, do you run back up to Home Depot and demand a free replacement?~Josh
No, I wouldn't. But then again, I wouldn't expect the door manufacturer to sue me for modifying their door without their explicit permission ala DMCA entitlements. :(



I see the reasoning behind studios desire for strong protection and I think they should have that right. But there does need to be balance between studio protections and customer fair use rights.

I, for one, rip all my movies to a server and stream them to my HTPC via a nice convenient front-end GUI. I can strip out all the crap like previews and extras from the kids movies so they go to the main DVD library menu, browse to the movie they want to watch, hit play and the movie starts. No need to mess with finding the DVD, jewel cases taking up shelf space, kids scratching or losing the discs, waiting through 15 minutes of previews, etc, etc. I can password protect films or block from the library's main browser window based upon various criteria such as MPAA rating or genre or whatever - try that with your shelf full of pron! :p I also have decent video upconversion, which eliminates the need for a standalone SD DVD player. Pictures, music, video, movies, games - you name it, it's all in one place with a nice, pretty, easy to use GUI.

Now in the case of HD media, as of now, I can't really see many people making backup copies or employing streaming videos due to the sheer size of the files and cost of blank discs. However, we were in a similar situation when DVDs were new - computer hard disk drives weren't large enough or it was cost prohibitive to store on them and DVD burners weren't even around yet, let alone the media for them. This will change over time as cost per GB drops on HDDs and optical media is less expensive.

Making a copy of a few of my kids favorite movies and letting them use the copies instead of the originals is not generating lost sales for the studios nor profit for myself.

Yes, the studios have the right to protect their intellectual property - I would think only a pirate would disagree.......................but the arguement against making copies is stupid. Please research the court decisions regarding "fair use". If they provide physical media that you own then you can back it up, it's just than simple.

The Supreme Court has also ruled that content owners are have no obligation to provide users with the means to create perfect copies. An end user of a copyrighted work can make a copy using a video camera and capture the copyrighted work as it is being displayed on the TV. That satisfies fair use.

I have found myself making backups of DVDs over the last year, mainly because the DVD Forum in all their wisdom made it attractive to do so. Since my HDTV doesn't have HDMI, I can't upconvert DVDs over component....unless I make a backup. Then it upconverts just fine. So the studios have actually encouraged me to make copies of DVDs, which I never would have done had they not slapped this artificial restriction on s-DVD.

I'm the same boat because my projector has problems syncing to signals with Macrovision. I wish I knew why they put Macrovision on 480p. No device ever made that will respond to Macrovision can record 480p.

Now in the case of HD media, as of now, I can't really see many people making backup copies or employing streaming videos due to the sheer size of the files and cost of blank discs.

You're kidding right? Blank media (DVD-r) is dirt cheap right now. HDD's are also dirt cheap (500GB for under $100).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10814547&&#post10814547

And remember, Target's online store is run by Amazon, so that shouldn't reflect their B&M stance (ie, I don't see Target online dropping HD DVD).

Technically, Target.com is run by Target, but they have a media partnership with Amazon. So the media would be from amazon, but everything else is handled by Target.com.

Thank you Josh. That's the exact same way I feel about it. I have three kids. They don't get to "play" with my BD's. In fact, I take the measure of locking them up so they don't have access to the raw discs. It's really that simple.

So let's say I have a disc go bad? I'll either buy a new one or contact the studio. That's the way it should be.

And for those whining about HTPC's, boo hoo. Cry me a river. What? You can't get off your lazy ars and put a disc in a slot to watch a movie? Come on. It's rediculous to demand that a studio allows their movies to be easily pirated so that you don't have to get up off the couch. By the way, I have a HTPC. I also have a media streaming server. On my media streaming server, I have the photos I've legally taken from my own digital camera and videos that I've taken and edited using my own digital camera and PC.

Boo hoo. Too bad you can't think for yourself. You think locking movies up is a good idea and using a media server is stupid. Well guess what I think locking up movies is about the stupiest idea I have heard in a while. I wasn't going to let you know until you decided to bash everyone who enjoys pushing technology to the max.

As far as DRM making movies harder to steal that is a laugh. If you buy that then I got a bridge to sell you. DRM is about control of content not preventing piracy. DRM would need to be strong enough that despite millions of hackers (professional, pirates, hobbyist, ego maniacs, fair users) nobody every could make 1 digital copy. Once one copy is release the genie is out of the bag.

DRM never was and never will be about protecting movies from piracy. If there was 0 piracy and pirates were shot on sight the studios would still use DRM. DRM is about maximizing profits at the expense of the consumers.
Consumer buys HD movie $$$
Oops movie doesn't play in DVD player consumers buys it in DVD $$$$
Oops consumer wants to play it on ipod buy movie again $$$$
Kid scratches DVD buy it again $$$$
Oh HD DVD lost the war all the disc are useless buy it again $$$$
20 years from now media is obsolete buy it agan $$$$

So keep that BS about DRM protects studios from pirates out of the AV SCIENCE Forum.

While you are at it how about you stop putting down consumers protecting their investment. I have 200+ movies on a media server. I haven't stolen one. If you are in Virginia Beach both you and the MPAA are willing to look at my originals safe in a cabinet while the movies are on a media server. I didn't buy an HD DVD player until AACS was broken and I won't buy a BD player until BD+ is broken.

I didn't buy an HD DVD player until AACS was broken and I won't buy a BD player until BD+ is broken.


You filthy little thief! :p

You're kidding right? Blank media (DVD-r) is dirt cheap right now. HDD's are also dirt cheap (500GB for under $100).

"HD media" = Blu-ray or HD DVD. HD media is hovering around $10 a disc right now (online), and burners (Blu-ray only) are ~$500 or more.

Not sure where you're getting your HDDs, but the cheapest 500GB HDD from newegg is $120, and their prices are typically very good. Even at that price point, when your film is 30-50GB, you can't store many on one HDD - maybe 10-15 films. When the really large drives are available at 22-24 cents per GB, then you might see more demand to store HD media on HDDs.

Not sure where you're getting your HDDs, but the cheapest 500GB HDD from newegg is $120, and their prices are typically very good.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148108

You were saying?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148108

You were saying?

Oooooo, very nice. That $15 off is new, I was just looking at the 500GB drives a couple days ago. 20 cents a GB is a great deal, even if it is the old technology 9 series.

20 cents a GB is a great deal, even if it is the old technology 9 series.

I picked up a few since I already had a few of these from before I am confident they will be just great for archiving.

Holy crap, hard drive prices are plummeting faster than I thought! Nothing like a 2.5TB RAID 5 array for archiving hidef!!! :D

Just a reminder not to get ahead of ourselves.

This announcement linked in the OP merely states that BD+ is starting to issues some specifications - HARDLY what any normal person would call a launch.

It really just means they finally finalized the basic specs.

I certainly wouldn't expect to see BD+ titles by July as some speculate, nor perhaps even by October.

Apart from getting the thing running, all players will have to be tested with content, and the new player specs won't be mandatory till the start of November.

So I would expect a lot more testing and firmware updates before the first movies hit the street with BD+.....

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148108
You were saying?Thanks for the tip. I just ordered one to be drive D along with my existing "C drive" 500 GB Seagate -- I know I should do RAID. Living dangerously. :o

Thanks for the tip. I just ordered one to be drive D along with my existing "C drive" 500 GB Seagate -- I know I should do RAID. Living dangerously. :o

You are welcome. I had already ordered mine so I had no problem sharing. ;)

The only way this $3 disc looks better than an original HD disc from MGM or Disney is when... Wait a minute. It's impossible.

The pirated disc doesn't have to look better than the legitimate one for consumers to prefer it: the legitimate one merely needs to be unacceptable enough that they feel they should not have to pay for it. The article I linked to gave some examples of masterings that would simply be unacceptable to me. (I won't pirate - I just won't get such releases at all.) These studios need to learn how to produce properly mastered, packaged and authored DVDs before tackling the high definition market.

Take, for example, the only two Fox releases I have in my collection of hundreds of DVDs (all legitimate). They have trailers which can't be skipped. The snap cases open in a nonstandard way (hello broken fingernails for the ladies) and smell. They were not available separately and had to be bought as part of a boxed set. One of them, The Sand Pebbles, is only now getting the special edition it deserved years ago. Now, why would I risk buying any high definition Fox titles after that? At best, I would wait and do my research. The Fox catalogue is just not relevant in the format "war" - only their new releases.

The pirated disc doesn't have to look better than the legitimate one for consumers to prefer it: the legitimate one merely needs to be unacceptable enough that they feel they should not have to pay for it. The article I linked to gave some examples of masterings that would simply be unacceptable to me. (I won't pirate - I just won't get such releases at all.) These studios need to learn how to produce properly mastered, packaged and authored DVDs before tackling the high definition market.

Take, for example, the only two Fox releases I have in my collection of hundreds of DVDs (all legitimate). They have trailers which can't be skipped. The snap cases open in a nonstandard way (hello broken fingernails for the ladies) and smell. They were not available separately and had to be bought as part of a boxed set. One of them, The Sand Pebbles, is only now getting the special edition it deserved years ago. Now, why would I risk buying any high definition Fox titles after that? At best, I would wait and do my research. The Fox catalogue is just not relevant in the format "war" - only their new releases.

So I take it you won't be getting Star Wars or ID4 on Blu-ray then.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148108

You were saying?

Man, why do I have to click on that?

Another $400.00 spent :eek:

So I take it you won't be getting Star Wars or ID4 on Blu-ray then.

No, can't stand Star Wars and don't even know what ID4 is. Haven't the Star Wars fans been upset over the years with the various DVD issues of their holy works? I guess many of them don't have to worry about children damaging the discs though... :)

I do think the various studios do still cater for different kinds of buyers. I'm a Warner kind of guy.

I'll grant you I'm hanging out for some of the Bonds in high definition, but not as recently remastered. Sorry, but my standard DVDs, pre-tampering and even with the botched susbtitles, would still be better than that.

We will be lucky to Star Wars in HD in the next 2 to 3 years. Lucas is so tight with those and the Indiana Jones movies.

Hoping for a firmware fix to circumvent players region coding?

"Basic countermeasures, which can check a player that is known to have had its hardware hacked—for example, a patch to the drive's firmware—and detect and respond to this hack. This allows new discs to disable playback on standalone players that have been hacked, without having to revoke the license keys of the entire model or line of players."

You can forget about it now.

Hoping for a firmware fix to circumvent players region coding?

"Basic countermeasures, which can check a player that is known to have had its hardware hacked—for example, a patch to the drive's firmware—and detect and respond to this hack. This allows new discs to disable playback on standalone players that have been hacked, without having to revoke the license keys of the entire model or line of players."

You can forget about it now.

Can BD+ modify the firmware of the players? Or just refuse to play a given disc?

- Tom

Can BD+ modify the firmware of the players? Or just refuse to play a given disc?

- Tom

It will refuse to play a BD+ protected disc.

In theory it should be able to do a firmware upgrade too.
It will depends what it is that gets updated.
Player firmware will vary from model to model and that will be very cumbersome to implement.
It might be possible to update Java coding/functions that resides in firmware if it is hardware implementation independent code.

We will be lucky to Star Wars in HD in the next 2 to 3 years. Lucas is so tight with those and the Indiana Jones movies.

Then he's probably very pissed for more than a year now, since 1080i TS dumps (cable/satellite) of all the six episodes are widely available on the net...

If you want to have a backup you should buy 2 or 3 copies of the movie ... so says the studios I think.


Which is clearly the point we are trying to make: this is nothing but a sneaky, illegal campaign to destroy your Fair Use Rights forever.

The biggest problem is not the existence of these parasites - we have these kind of species everywhere, even in Mother Nature - but the fact that they were able to buy off the Congress. No real, wide debate, no polling of the people, nothing really took place - it's been decided by Congress, mostly by either paid shills of the studios like Dianne "Hollywood & Scientology W**re" Feinstein (D-CA) or half-retarded 70+ years old farts like Ted "Bridge To Nowhere" "Tubes Are Clogged" Stevens (R-AK) and alike.

The music studios are already beginning to blink in the studio vs. consumer DRM struggle. Higher quality, DRM-free music is hitting iTunes from one major studio, and there are a lot of rumors others are to follow. These tracks can be easily converted to play on the device the consumer chooses, when the consumer wants. That's what happens when the consumer body collectively sticks up for itself and dictates to Hollywood what is acceptable, not the other way around.

How people here cheer at the arrival of more draconian DRM baffles me. Its as if they represent what I call the Vichy Consumer.

We will get our hidef, and we don't have to bend over to get it. That, for me, is the real 'format war.'

This is what baffles me too - how could anyone cheer for losing more of his rights? :eek:

Vichy Consumer(s) - I like it, I will use it. :cool:

If I purchase the disc for the right to watch the movie, and I can still watch the movie, then what rights have I lost
The right to make backups if you so choose - may not be your thing but it is to others?

It's also stupid, the studios need to accept the concept that's just not going to work....ever. If you can build it, it can be hacked = it's a waste of time.

If I purchase the disc for the right to watch the movie, and I can still watch the movie, then what rights have I lost?
I, for one, would be ecstatic if you could provide a link to the complete EULA for Fox, Sony, and Disney movies on Blu-ray Disc.

Is anyone here suggesting that Universal gives you the right to 'back-up' the movies they sell you on HD DVD?

How is this different? They are just trying to make copying difficult so the average person won't use it, just like AACS, you think they are taking away your rights by making a system that most of you think will fail anyway?

If I purchase the disc for the right to watch the movie, and I can still watch the movie, then what rights have I lost?

All the rest of your rights that is considered to be part of Fair Use Rights: http://fairuse.stanford.edu/

Fair Use and DRM: http://www.eff.org/IP/DRM/fair_use_and_drm.html

In my case it is my right to archive my disc and play it back from my NAS box instead of risking to scratch my disc or playing back the disc under linux etc.

DRM kills plenty of things you - most likely due to your lifestyle (watching movies only on a single location, on a single player and TV, sitting on your couch) - apparently can't think of.

I, for one, would be ecstatic if you could provide a link to the complete EULA for Fox, Sony, and Disney movies on Blu-ray Disc.

LOL, it's a really good one! :cool:

If I purchase the disc for the right to watch the movie, and I can still watch the movie, then what rights have I lost?

I'll have lost the right to put it on my video Ipod. So that I can watch the movie I paid for on the road.

Is anyone here suggesting that Universal gives you the right to 'back-up' the movies they sell you on HD DVD?


:eek:
I am not following you... who suggests what here?


How is this different? They are just trying to make copying difficult so the average person won't use it, just like AACS, you think they are taking away your rights by making a system that most of you think will fail anyway?

I disagree: they are trying to make it impossible to make backups etc, to exercise your Fair Use Rights. Essentially the DMCA does the same thing.

I disagree: they are trying to make it impossible to make backups etc, to exercise your Fair Use Rights. Essentially the DMCA does the same thing.Exactly. DRM needs to be hacked, so studios will realize it is a waste of time.

While there significant differences between the music and movie industries, there are also significant similarities. EMI, the first of the Big 4 music companies to give up the DRM ghost, has some great news to report:

DRM-free music sales boost download music business (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070620-emi-says-drm-free-music-is-selling-well.html)Early sales indicate that DRM-free music is noticeably more popular than DRMed music .....

Who'd a thunk it?


I support formats that let me play them on the device I choose, when I choose.

Ars Technia had a pretty good little write up on what BD+ does.

More worrying than a resolution of the high-definition format wars, however, is what studios might want to do with the additional powers that BD+ provides them. The ability to run any sort of code in the name of "advanced countermeasures" also brings the power to limit content by other means: timed-release and expiring discs are just some of the possibilities. Somewhere, the ghost of the original DiVX may be laughing.


Here's a link to the full story: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070620-blu-ray-content-protection-agency-certifies-bd.html

I think you just have to ask yourself, after all that Sony has done in the recent past (Sony Rootkit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Sony_BMG_CD_copy_protection_scandal) and breaking DVDs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARccOS_Protection)) to "protect their interests" are you willing to give them the benefit of the doubt with something like BD+? And why is it that Fox was so keen for BD+? What does that say about how they view their paying customers?

How's it go? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

I may be showing my age but remember when you bought an album and then recorded it to... heaven forbid cassette :eek: I really do not know what the differerance is. If I buy it, it is mine to do with what I choose. If I want to soak it in gasoline and burn it so be it. PLEASE don't let BIG BROTHER tell me what I can and can't do! If I burn it to make a profit???? let's see am I really going to shut the BIG guys down I don't think so. Plus I'll more than likely get caught and that's the end :( Bottom line it is mine if I buy it. The end!!!!
Steve

I may be showing my age but remember when you bought an album and then recorded it to... heaven forbid cassette :eek: I really do not know what the differerance is. If I buy it, it is mine to do with what I choose. If I want to soak it in gasoline and burn it so be it. PLEASE don't let BIG BROTHER tell me what I can and can't do! If I burn it to make a profit???? let's see am I really going to shut the BIG guys down I don't think so. Plus I'll more than likely get caught and that's the end :( Bottom line it is mine if I buy it. The end!!!!
Steve

The disc itself is yours. But what's on the disk isn't. If you buy a blank disc, then that's yours too. If you copy protected material onto that blank disc, then that's stealing. Plain and Simple.

The bottom line is there is no valid reason to want to copy an HD-DVD or BD movie onto another disc. None. Zip. Zilch. Zippo.

The disc itself is yours. But what's on the disk isn't. If you buy a blank disc, then that's yours too. If you copy protected material onto that blank disc, then that's stealing. Plain and Simple.

The bottom line is there is no valid reason to want to copy an HD-DVD or BD movie onto another disc. None. Zip. Zilch. Zippo.

As has been previously pointed out, what the studios really want is for you to have to buy the same movie over and over and over again.

Bought the BD to enjoy in your home theater, thanks $$$

Want to watch it on the iPod, please pay, thanks $$$

Want to watch it in the minivan for the kids, please buy on DVD, thanks $$$

Want to record part of the soundtrack for listening in the car, please buy the CD, thanks $$$.

Guys like yourself who defend this completely anti-consumer agenda are naive pawns.

Remember that what the hard core studios like Fox and Disney WANTED was DIVX where you would pay every time you watched a disc and couldn't loan it out at all or play it in another player.... ant that's exactly where we are going with BD+ and online download HD purchases.

For anyone here to back this idea up is sad at best and disgustingly anti fair use at worst.

:eek:
I am not following you... who suggests what here?



I disagree: they are trying to make it impossible to make backups etc, to exercise your Fair Use Rights. Essentially the DMCA does the same thing.

No one minds true "backups".

However, I have seen people with 1000 pirated DVD titles that they brought back from Hong Kong, including movies that were still in theatres. Are these "backups"?

I think we have to give the studios an opportunity to show that things like managed copy can work.

I know that the studios are simply not going to sell us their content if a solution to piracy cannot be obtained. I agree that they are overly paranoid about this, but they also have a point, and they are in any case adamant.

It is also really sad to see people working day and night to defeat schemes like AACS. Clearly this has caused some studios to withdraw from the nextgen marketplace until BD+ is ready.

Some people think that these hackers are doing a good thing. Do they also think that stealing your identity and running up big credit card bills would be a good thing? Where do you draw the line?

As has been previously pointed out, what the studios really want is for you to have to buy the same movie over and over and over again.

Bought the BD to enjoy in your home theater, thanks $$$

Want to watch it on the iPod, please pay, thanks $$$

Want to watch it in the minivan for the kids, please buy on DVD, thanks $$$

Want to record part of the soundtrack for listening in the car, please buy the CD, thanks $$$.

Guys like yourself who defend this completely anti-consumer agenda are naive pawns.

Remember that what the hard core studios like Fox and Disney WANTED was DIVX where you would pay every time you watched a disc and couldn't loan it out at all or play it in another player.... ant that's exactly where we are going with BD+ and online download HD purchases.

For anyone here to back this idea up is sad at best and disgustingly anti fair use at worst.

You have a point about the multiple uses that you suggest. But remember that we are not discussing Divx anymore either.

You have a point about the multiple uses that you suggest. But remember that we are not discussing Divx anymore either.

If BD+ and other efforts don't convince you that a return to DiVX is what studios want then I don't know what it does tell you.

If the studios had a way to do a retinal scan from the "movie player" and bill every set of eyeballs $5 for the privilage of watching their product each and every time it was displayed, that is exactly what they would do.

As a matter of fact, I should patent that since they will probably try to do that next.

Guys like yourself who defend this completely anti-consumer agenda are naive pawns.

Remember that what the hard core studios like Fox and Disney WANTED was DIVX where you would pay every time you watched a disc and couldn't loan it out at all or play it in another player.... ant that's exactly where we are going with BD+ and online download HD purchases.

For anyone here to back this idea up is sad at best and disgustingly anti fair use at worst.Summed up quite nicely.

And its BS that studios won't offer DRM-free content......they will, once they realize that's what people expect.

I know that the studios are simply not going to sell us their content if a solution to piracy cannot be obtained.

Bollocks. Studios will always sell their content - it's what they do. Hell some studios sell content encryption free so obviously priacy can't be ruining the business as a whole.

The excuses about piracy beign a problem are simply there for two things.
1) to be written of as an expense allowing companies to pay less tax.
2) to charge you more/multiple times for what you legall own - increasing corporate profit.

Some people think that these hackers are doing a good thing. Do they also think that stealing your identity and running up big credit card bills would be a good thing? Where do you draw the line?

Sorry but i take offence to that. Do you realy believe every hacker/encryption reverse engeneering is also someone who deals in identity theft. Some countries have gone as far as saying hacking is perfectly legal if it gives the consumer their rights back - hence why dvd player and console region coding can be legally cracked in several countries, and one can legally proffit from offering such services.

The OP is about BD+ being available.

People should note that both Blu-ray and HD DVD are intended to provide security for content. They have the same goals in this regard. The only question is one of effectiveness.

Would someone please explain to me why it is reasonable to have people hacking a disk and putting a virtually perfect copy of it on the net for anyone to download. This is not fair use, this is not "backup", this is simply ripping off someone else's property.

The OP is about BD+ being available.

People should note that both Blu-ray and HD DVD are intended to provide security for content. They have the same goals in this regard. The only question is one of effectiveness.

Would someone please explain to me why it is reasonable to have people hacking a disk and putting a virtually perfect copy of it on the net for anyone to download. This is not fair use, this is not "backup", this is simply ripping off someone else's property.

If you can't make a legitimate backup of the disc contents for your own personal use then the issue is all about fair use, not piracy.

The OP is about BD+ being available.

People should note that both Blu-ray and HD DVD are intended to provide security for content. They have the same goals in this regard. The only question is one of effectiveness.

Would someone please explain to me why it is reasonable to have people hacking a disk and putting a virtually perfect copy of it on the net for anyone to download. This is not fair use, this is not "backup", this is simply ripping off someone else's property.

Cracking the disc for fair use and putting it up on the net are 2 separate transactions and issues. Cracking for Fair use is fine, putting something up on the net regardless of Cracking or not is a different issue. that's where Piracy comes into effect. What that is is someone going above and beyond the limitations cracking and piracy are not "intertwined" as a rule.

I may be showing my age but remember when you bought an album and then recorded it to... heaven forbid cassette :eek: I really do not know what the differerance is. If I buy it, it is mine to do with what I choose. If I want to soak it in gasoline and burn it so be it. PLEASE don't let BIG BROTHER tell me what I can and can't do! If I burn it to make a profit???? let's see am I really going to shut the BIG guys down I don't think so. Plus I'll more than likely get caught and that's the end :( Bottom line it is mine if I buy it. The end!!!!
Steve
I don't even know why we're arguing this. Sure, you own it, and YOU probably won't break the law. But, surely, you have to recognize that there is an entire industry around pirating these items. Just because you, or anybody else on this forum, won't break the law, leaving the door wide open for others to do so is not in the interest of the studios.

If you really want to leave the door wide open for pirates and easy copying, fine. But don't expect movie studios to continue to lose money to pirating and, in turn, be forced to make lower budget movies. People lose jobs over this. I suppose that's no big deal as long as we have the convenience of copying the movie to a central server.

Try to keep in mind that just because you buy a Blu-Ray movie, that doesn't mean you own the rights to the movie. If that were the case, you'd be paying tens of thousands of dollars for the discs. You are paying for the right to PLAY the movie FROM the Blu-Ray disc. I'm perfectly fine knowing that the money I spend on a Blu-Ray limits me to playing that movie from the disc. If I want the privilege to play it from an iPod, I'll pay to download it. It's NOT my movie. If the movie studios want to impose restrictions on what we can and cannot do with THEIR movies, fine. I have the right to either purchase or not purchase the movie.

Do you think that, just because I own the DVD version of a movie, I should get the Blu-Ray version for free?

Paying to download the movie for the right to place that movie on your server is not an option that the studios offer. I don't understand this mentality that you own the movie when you purchase it on disc. It's not within your rights to do with it whatever you want. There are restrictions.

But don't expect movie studios to continue to lose money to pirating and, in turn, be forced to make lower budget movies.Staw man.

Please provide evidence studios lose money from the availability of DRM-free content for purchase! As an example, I just provided evidence EMI is seeing a sales boost from the availability of DRM-free content for download.

Lower quality movies??? What have you been watching?

Ars Technia had a pretty good little write up on what BD+ does.

Here's a link to the full story: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070620-blu-ray-content-protection-agency-certifies-bd.html
Expiring discs are already done by other technologies for DVD (self-destructing discs) so it's another clumsy FUD.

Cracking the disc for fair use and putting it up on the net are 2 separate transactions and issues. Cracking for Fair use is fine, putting something up on the net regardless of Cracking or not is a different issue. that's where Piracy comes into effect. What that is is someone going above and beyond the limitations cracking and piracy are not "intertwined" as a rule.

Yes, that is the standard distinction, which I have argued myself many times. It has a certain legal and moral credence, but it is impractical.

The problem, as the studios see it, is that what starts as "fair use" in the privacy of your own home very quickly becomes perfect copies of every title available for downloading free of charge.

We are no longer in the days 25 years ago when you could copy an LD to VHS for yourself but there really was no way to distribute it. Now, if 10,000 people make a copy of a DVD for their own use, and person #10,001 makes a copy and loads it to the net, suddenly everyone can have a free perfect copy.

I am not arguing the morality or legality of the situation so much as I am trying to explain what goes through a studio exec's mind. This scenario above (which happens all of the time these days) is exactly why we have AACS and BD+ and why there was a lot of effort and discussion put into this thing.

I am also not sure it will work. :)

I disagree: they are trying to make it impossible to make backups etc, to exercise your Fair Use Rights. Essentially the DMCA does the same thing.

The DMCA does not prevent you from excercising your right to fair use. From Universal vs. Reimerdes:

We know of no authority for the proposition that fair use, as protected by the Copyright Act, much less the Constitution, guarantees copying by the optimum method or in the identical format of the original. Although the Appellants insisted at oral argument that they should not be relegated to a "horse and buggy" technique in making fair use of DVD movies, the DMCA does not impose even an arguable limitation on the opportunity to make a variety of traditional fair uses of DVD movies, such as commenting on their content, quoting excerpts from their screenplays, and even recording portions of the video images and sounds on film or tape by pointing a camera, a camcorder, or a microphone at a monitor as it displays the DVD movie. The fact that the resulting copy will not be as perfect or as manipulable as a digital copy obtained by having direct access to the DVD movie in its digital form, provides no basis for a claim of unconstitutional limitation of fair use.

I don't even know why we're arguing this. Sure, you own it, and YOU probably won't break the law. But, surely, you have to recognize that there is an entire industry around pirating these items. Just because you, or anybody else on this forum, won't break the law, leaving the door wide open for others to do so is not in the interest of the studios.

If you really want to leave the door wide open for pirates and easy copying, fine. But don't expect movie studios to continue to lose money to pirating and, in turn, be forced to make lower budget movies. People lose jobs over this. I suppose that's no big deal as long as we have the convenience of copying the movie to a central server.

Try to keep in mind that just because you buy a Blu-Ray movie, that doesn't mean you own the rights to the movie. If that were the case, you'd be paying tens of thousands of dollars for the discs. You are paying for the right to PLAY the movie FROM the Blu-Ray disc. I'm perfectly fine knowing that the money I spend on a Blu-Ray limits me to playing that movie from the disc. If I want the privilege to play it from an iPod, I'll pay to download it. It's NOT my movie. If the movie studios want to impose restrictions on what we can and cannot do with THEIR movies, fine. I have the right to either purchase or not purchase the movie.

Do you think that, just because I own the DVD version of a movie, I should get the Blu-Ray version for free?

Paying to download the movie for the right to place that movie on your server is not an option that the studios offer. I don't understand this mentality that you own the movie when you purchase it on disc. It's not within your rights to do with it whatever you want. There are restrictions.

Again, this is an extremely anti consumer stance.

It's not the consumer buying the movie on BD who is the "Bad guy". It's the guy in Malasia or Eastern Europe who is going to buy the movie, crack it (regardless of piracy laws or copy protections) and upload it to the net, who is the real bad guy here. If studios want our business then they have to make some effort to differentiate between customers buying movies and customers making illegal copies.

Why punish your customers for what a small number of criminals do?

I have over 300 music CDs. If I wanted to buy all of this music for my iPod it would cost me over $3,000 additional dollars to listen to what I already own. I already purchased the music and should have the option to play it on the device of my choosing and thankfully (thank God actually) this has not been hobbled or made illegal.

The music industry whined about music piracy for years even as they were having record profit years.

Yes, piracy is a problem but punishing the consumers that keep your business running is not the answer to this problem.

...
We are no longer in the days 25 years ago when you could copy an LD to VHS for yourself but there really was no way to distribute it. Now, if 10,000 people make a copy of a DVD for their own use, and person #10,001 makes a copy and loads it to the net, suddenly everyone can have a free perfect copy.


Yes. Sometimes for awhile the dominant members of some industry manage to mostly get a monopoly on the means of distribution of some commodity. Then new technology comes along and that monopoly is challenged by newer more efficient means of delivery. At that point the entrenched members will often try to hinder the diffusion of that new technology.

In this particulary case it has become very easy to distribute bits, data, information. It will get easier yet. Those who stand to lose by this competitive means of distribution are rightly panicking.

But most of them will adapt.

- Tom

Yes. Sometimes for awhile the dominant members of some industry manage to mostly get a monopoly on the means of distribution of some commodity. Then new technology comes along and that monopoly is challenged by newer more efficient means of delivery. At that point the entrenched members will often try to hinder the diffusion of that new technology.

In this particulary case it has become very easy to distribute bits, data, information. It will get easier yet. Those who stand to lose by this competitive means of distribution are rightly panicking.

But most of them will adapt.

- Tom
http://www.bushspeaks.com/img/bush_borg.jpg

I don't even know why we're arguing this. Sure, you own it, and YOU probably won't break the law. But, surely, you have to recognize that there is an entire industry around pirating these items. Just because you, or anybody else on this forum, won't break the law, leaving the door wide open for others to do so is not in the interest of the studios.

If you really want to leave the door wide open for pirates and easy copying, fine. But don't expect movie studios to continue to lose money to pirating and, in turn, be forced to make lower budget movies. People lose jobs over this. I suppose that's no big deal as long as we have the convenience of copying the movie to a central server.

Try to keep in mind that just because you buy a Blu-Ray movie, that doesn't mean you own the rights to the movie. If that were the case, you'd be paying tens of thousands of dollars for the discs. You are paying for the right to PLAY the movie FROM the Blu-Ray disc. I'm perfectly fine knowing that the money I spend on a Blu-Ray limits me to playing that movie from the disc. If I want the privilege to play it from an iPod, I'll pay to download it. It's NOT my movie. If the movie studios want to impose restrictions on what we can and cannot do with THEIR movies, fine. I have the right to either purchase or not purchase the movie.

Do you think that, just because I own the DVD version of a movie, I should get the Blu-Ray version for free?

Paying to download the movie for the right to place that movie on your server is not an option that the studios offer. I don't understand this mentality that you own the movie when you purchase it on disc. It's not within your rights to do with it whatever you want. There are restrictions.

After all this confuse dtalk you might waznt to check your grammar: owning a disc means YOU OWN A COPY OF THE MOVIE> Not the movie, right but not the right to watch either - that'd be renting.

YOU DO OWN A COPY and it is up to you where, how, when and with whom you want to watch it.

The disc itself is yours. But what's on the disk isn't. If you buy a blank disc, then that's yours too. If you copy protected material onto that blank disc, then that's stealing. Plain and Simple.

The bottom line is there is no valid reason to want to copy an HD-DVD or BD movie onto another disc. None. Zip. Zilch. Zippo.

What an utter BS. Seriously, do you work for MPAA?

When you buy a disc, YOU BUY A COPY OF THE MOVIE. A PERSONAL COPY.

It is entirely UP TO YOU WTF you are going to do with it.

It is within YOUR RIGHTS to make a backup.

It is entirely up to you if you want to copy it to your PC.

If you can't grasp it, please check those sources I have linked above: the Stanford, the EFF etc.

Wow you guys arguing for all this copy protection must really love putting money in Disney, Fox etc's pockets.

God forbid I want to backup the disc I paid good money for in case it gets damaged.

What an utter BS. Seriously, do you work for MPAA?

When you buy a disc, YOU BUY A COPY OF THE MOVIE. A PERSONAL COPY.

It is entirely UP TO YOU WTF you are going to do with it.

It is within YOUR RIGHTS to make a backup.

It is entirely up to you if you want to copy it to your PC.

If you can't grasp it, please check those sources I have linked above: the Standford, the EFF etc.

Let's give managed copy a chance to meet this reasonable need. Backup, yes. Distribute to 100,000 people over the net, no.

Let's give managed copy a chance to meet this reasonable need. Backup, yes. Distribute to 100,000 people over the net, no.Managed copy is a fraud. The studios just trot out that horse every time the subect comes up.

I'll 'manage' my own copies, thank you very much.

T2K take it easy :)

I think we pretty much explained to death why extra DRM like BD+ is not good for consumers. The few who supports it are either brainwashed by companies (fanboys, zealots, MPAA and RIAA insiders) or just too happy that finally FOX is releasing movies on BD again.

I love how people analogise between realty (real property) and 'intellectual property'. Stealing one and stealing the other are completly different.

Hopefully it gets hacked, anohter bunch of R&D money the studios wasted for a group of hackers working alone to break for $0.

Hopefully it gets hacked, anohter bunch of R&D money the studios wasted for a group of hackers working alone to break for $0.

Millions spent on DRM, broken by some guy on his 30 minute lunch break, one hand on the keyboard, the other his Quiznos sandwich.

After reading the arstechnica article linked to above, I would be worried about malware.

The "advanced countermeasures" allow "native code" (presumably Java virtual machine instructions) to be loaded into the player and executed. If the player is connected to your home network, you now have someone else's code running behind your firewall. And no way would I be inserting a Blu-Ray disc into a computer used for online banking.

Even a standalone player with no local storage still has nonvolatile memory for settings. I can easily imagine some lazy or less than competent engineer at a content producer deciding the easy way out was to change some setting while his disc was playing and not be too careful about putting things back when he was finished.

After reading the arstechnica article linked to above, I would be worried about malware.

The "advanced countermeasures" allow "native code" (presumably Java virtual machine instructions) to be loaded into the player and executed. If the player is connected to your home network, you now have someone else's code running behind your firewall. And no way would I be inserting a Blu-Ray disc into a computer used for online banking.

Even a standalone player with no local storage still has nonvolatile memory for settings. I can easily imagine some lazy or less than competent engineer at a content producer deciding the easy way out was to change some setting while his disc was playing and not be too careful about putting things back when he was finished.

That is indeed one of my own main concerns. The disgusting Sony root kit fiasco shows what a studio will be willing to do if they desperately feel they absolutely MUST protect their valuable intellectual property.

So we already know they are willing to sometimes go to extremes. It is just a question of whether BD+ also gives them the means.

- Tom

At this point in time, anyone who links Sony with Sony BMG is being disingenuous and intentionally deceitful in conversation.

Anyone who thinks that is not a good example of how far IP owners will go to protect their intellectual property is either fooling themselves or attempting to fool others.

- Tom

I personally don't have anything against DRM as long as it's done transparently so that it doesn't interfere with my movie watching. If that's the way to guarantee people behind these movies will get their share of profits then I'm voting yes.

When it comes to BD+, I don't think it will be broken in near future. It took 3 years for CSS to be compromised, BD+ being technically quite different (maybe more advanced too) probably means it will take some time again before it will be compromised (maybe 3 years again?). They way it's done with CSS probably doesn't work with BD+. I'm not saying it won't be done some day. It will, all copy protections schemes will eventually be worked around but I'm sure it will take time in this case.

I personally don't have anything against DRM as long as it's done transparently so that it doesn't interfere with my movie watching. If that's the way to guarantee people behind these movies will get their share of profits then I'm voting yes.

When it comes to BD+, I don't think it will be broken in near future. It took 3 years for CSS to be compromised, BD+ being technically quite different (maybe more advanced too) probably means it will take some time again before it will be compromised (maybe 3 years again?). They way it's done with CSS probably doesn't work with BD+. I'm not saying it won't be done some day. It will, all copy protections schemes will eventually be worked around but I'm sure it will take time in this case.

It took 3 years to break CSS??? I was able to rip movies to HDD in 1999, so 2 years at most. Plus look, AACS was more advanced than CSS and that's been shattered realllly quickly. I don't think BD+ is that far behind it. Especially with the hints that BD+ is reliant upon AACS. We'll see, but I forsee that it's broken in under a year, maybe even under 6 months.

It took 3 years to break CSS??? I was able to rip movies to HDD in 1999, so 2 years at most. Plus look, AACS was more advanced than CSS and that's been shattered realllly quickly. I don't think BD+ is that far behind it. Especially with the hints that BD+ is reliant upon AACS. We'll see, but I forsee that it's broken in under a year, maybe even under 6 months.
CSS was realeased 1996, decss (the first CSS circumvention) was released on October 1999. BD+ is technically quite different from AACS. AACS is based on cryptography keys as is CSS. BD+ is designed to be able to adapt to hacks, that means it will require quite different mechanism to compromise it (the adaption part has to be compromised, that doesn't exist in CSS or AACS).

Also for people worried about BD+ being able to change the player. As far as I've understood the changes it makes to the player are applied runtime as a disc is played. They are not permanent modifications to ones player.

My view on DRM is very simple. I want the environment to launch new formats to be as friendly to the studios as possible. As long as the HDM are not time-limited. IE: no expiry and cannot be revoked as long as the physical media is my possession.

This is the only way to get the studios hooked and producing large amounts of their new releases and libraries onto HDM. Once they are addicted to this source of revenue and cannot walk away, at that point whether a DRM is cracked or not is immaterial. Even if it was, they cannot walk away.

This is primarily why I disagree with people like muslix who crack these things too early and caused studios to consider abandoning HDM. It is not the crack that I disagree with, it is that the timetable is too early. One more year, and there will be no turning back by the studios, and for that to happen, HDM revenue has to be substantial.

This is a win-win for everyone. Collectors have the knowledge that their collection is 'forever'. But especially for the studios, since they get a new source of revenue that is less leaky than the old one.

Also for people worried about BD+ being able to change the player. As far as I've understood the changes it makes to the player are applied runtime as a disc is played. They are not permanent modifications to ones player.

It's unclear what they mean by "native code". It can't be the normal technical meaning, because various processors are in use for players. I took it to mean JVM code which bypasses the sandbox. I would be a lot happier about it if the full specifications were available for free so that computer security academics everywhere could examine what they are doing.

Also for people worried about BD+ being able to change the player. As far as I've understood the changes it makes to the player are applied runtime as a disc is played. They are not permanent modifications to ones player.
Taken from a BDA presentation:
Advanced Countermeasure (when basic countermeasure code does not work )
- BD+ includes the ability to load native code (code that runs directly on the
player’s host process). It is allowed to deploy it only after it is proven that
basic countermeasure code cannot address the hack

At this point in time, anyone who links Sony with Sony BMG is being disingenuous and intentionally deceitful in conversation.

ROFLMAO! :D And how so? Last time I have checked Sony BMG was part of Sony, you know. :rolleyes:

CSS was realeased 1996, decss (the first CSS circumvention) was released on October 1999.


Which means nothing, right, thank you. The market penetration of DVD was quite insignificant until 1998-1999 which obviously meant less interest in cracking CSS.

FYI: on the contrary in reality nobody knows how long did it actually take but it was more likely question of months if not only weeks.
DeCSS was a group effort, spiced up by alleged unathorized code use etc - Wiki has a nice summary on this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeCSS#Jon_Lech_Johansen.27s_involvement) :

The DeCSS program was a collaborative project, in which Jon wrote the Graphical User Interface. The transcripts from the appeals court (Borgarting lagmannsrett), published in the Norwegian newspaper Verdens Gang, contain the following description of the process which led to the release of DeCSS:[7]

Through Internet Relay Chat (henceforth IRC), [Jon Lech Johansen] made contact with like-minded [people seeking to develop a DVD-player under the Linux operating system]. September 11, 1999, he had a conversation with "mdx" about how the encryption algorithm in CSS could be found, by using a poorly secured software-based DVD-player. In a conversation [between Jon Lech Johansen and "mdx"] September 22, "mdx" informs that "the nomad" had found the code for CSS decryption, and that "mdx" now would send this [code] to Jon Lech Johansen. "The nomad" allegedly found this decryption algorithm through so-called reverse engineering of a Xing DVD-player, where the [decryption] keys were more or less openly accessible. Through this, information that made it possible [for "mdx"] to create the code CSS_scramble.cpp was retrieved. From chat logs dated November 4, 1999 and November 25, 1999, it appears that "the nomad" carried through the reverse engineering process on a Xing player, which he characterized as illegal. As the case is presented for the High Court, this was not known by Jon Lech Johansen before November 4 [1999].

Regarding the authentication code, the High Court takes for its basis that "the nomad" obtained this code through the electronic mailing list LiVid (Linux Video) on the internet, and that it was created by Derek Fawcus. It appears through a LiVid posting dated October 6, 1999 that Derek Fawcus on this date read through the DeCSS source code and compared it with his own. Further, it appears that "the creators [of DeCSS] have taken [Derek Fawcus' code] almost verbatim - the only alteration was the removal of [Derek Fawcus'] copyright header and a paragraph containing commentaries, and a change of the function names." The name [of the code] was CSS_auth.cpp.

The High Court takes for its basis that the program Jon Lech Johansen later programmed, the graphical user interface, consisted of "the nomad's" decryption algorithm and Derek Fawcus' authentication package. The creation of a graphical user interface made the program accessible, also for users without special knowledge in programming. The program was published on the internet for the first time October 6, 1999, after Jon Lech Johansen had tested it on the movie "The Matrix." In this, he downloaded approximately 2.5%. 200 megabytes, of the movie to the hard drive on his computer. This file is the only film fragment Jon Lech Johansen has saved on his computer.



BD+ is technically quite different from AACS. AACS is based on cryptography keys as is CSS. BD+ is designed to be able to adapt to hacks, that means it will require quite different mechanism to compromise it (the adaption part has to be compromised, that doesn't exist in CSS or AACS).


... right and it still doesn't mean jacksh*t with regards to being harder to crack (hack or circumvent it). :p


Also for people worried about BD+ being able to change the player. As far as I've understood the changes it makes to the player are applied runtime as a disc is played. They are not permanent modifications to ones player.

Ehh aren't you speculating too much without any proof?

It's unclear what they mean by "native code". It can't be the normal technical meaning, because various processors are in use for players. I took it to mean JVM code which bypasses the sandbox. I would be a lot happier about it if the full specifications were available for free so that computer security academics everywhere could examine what they are doing.

I suspect the obviously wrong false use of the technicus terminus 'native code' is just a usual lame smoke&mirror attempt from BDA... :rolleyes:

What an utter BS. Seriously, do you work for MPAA?

When you buy a disc, YOU BUY A COPY OF THE MOVIE. A PERSONAL COPY.

It is entirely UP TO YOU WTF you are going to do with it.

It is within YOUR RIGHTS to make a backup.

It is entirely up to you if you want to copy it to your PC.

If you can't grasp it, please check those sources I have linked above: the Stanford, the EFF etc.

No it's not up to you what you can do with it. If it was you could open up a cinema and charge people to come and watch your movies. That will end you in jail.
It is not within your rights to make a back up. You buy the disc. When it doesn't play anymore you can either buy another one or move on.

By your logic I should be able to go into McDonalds and complain that I want a back-up of my Big Mac so that sometime later in the day, when I'm finished eating and get hungry again, I can eat the back-up and enjoy that Big Mac again.

Fortunately the discs don't self destruct after being played once like a Big Mac does once it's been eaten once and you can enjoy that disc again for as long as you want.

You don't own the property. You own the disc. If you want a DVD version you can go and buy that. If you have a CD and you want the vinyl you have to go and buy it. The artist still owns the songs on it. If you were to poduce a commercial using my song and came back with the "but I bought the CD therefore I own what's on it and I chose to use it in a commercial" well you'd be getting sued pretty quickly me old cream cracker.

No it's not up to you what you can do with it. If it was you could open up a cinema and charge people to come and watch your movies. That will end you in jail.


Let me rephrase it, for you:

It is ENTIRELY UP TO YOU WTF you want to do with it (sans commercial use).

Feel better?


It is not within your rights to make a back up. You buy the disc. When it doesn't play anymore you can either buy another one or move on.


Wrong. It is within your Fair Use Rights to make a backup.
And no, you bought a WORKING copy, not a RANDOMLY EXPIRING COPY.

I suggest you to read the aforementioned legal statements from Stanford, EFF and other leading scholars of the subject so you can avoid making posts like this on the subject.


By your logic I should be able to go into McDonalds and complain that I want a back-up of my Big Mac so that sometime later in the day, when I'm finished eating and get hungry again, I can eat the back-up and enjoy that Big Mac again.

Fortunately the discs don't self destruct after being played once like a Big Mac does once it's been eaten once and you can enjoy that disc again for as long as you want.

You don't own the property. You own the disc. If you want a DVD version you can go and buy that. If you have a CD and you want the vinyl you have to go and buy it. The artist still owns the songs on it. If you were to poduce a commercial using my song and came back with the "but I bought the CD therefore I own what's on it and I chose to use it in a commercial" well you'd be getting sued pretty quickly me old cream cracker.


Again, I think you lack the basic understanding of owning a copy of the movie, moreover you are not aware of the established principles of Fair Rights Use, backed by every US and intn'l court.

Sorry but it is not my job to explain it to you - I already gave few links earlier, please do your homework if you want to raise valid points and get valid answers.

The issue is stated as piracy. We not only see DVD piracy, we also see pre-theater release piracy and everything in between. BD+ will not stop this. I don't know how good videotaping an HD display is, but my display is better than I see in most theaters. This isn't about stopping piracy, it's about something else.

As I said in another thread:

Jack Valenti, his successors, studio lawyers, and certain execs have made copy protection their raison d'etre. In other words, certain people have made a very good living out of convincing shareholders and politicians that they need to and can conquer copying. These same suits now have sugar plums dancing in their head that they can sell pay-per-view.

Piracy is the issue here. You paid for a DVD Movie, you got a movie on a DVD. You didnt get a DVD + version for your psp + version for your ipod + version for your HTPC, etc etc. If you want those versions, they sell those as well. So when you make it yourself, you ARE Stealing.

The issue is stated as piracy. We not only see DVD piracy, we also see pre-theater release piracy and everything in between. BD+ will not stop this. I don't know how good videotaping an HD display is, but my display is better than I see in most theaters. This isn't about stopping piracy, it's about something else.

As I said in another thread:

Jack Valenti, his successors, studio lawyers, and certain execs have made copy protection their raison d'etre. In other words, certain people have made a very good living out of convincing shareholders and politicians that they need to and can conquer copying. These same suits now have sugar plums dancing in their head that they can sell pay-per-view.

Excellent post.

Piracy is the issue here. You paid for a DVD Movie, you got a movie on a DVD. You didnt get a DVD + version for your psp + version for your ipod + version for your HTPC, etc etc.


YES, YOU DID. YES, it was ALWAYS LIKE THAT an dit still remained like that.


If you want those versions, they sell those as well. So when you make it yourself, you ARE Stealing.

Bollocks. It has nothing to do with stealing - it's simply bald-faced attempt from MPAA to rewrite the industry's decades-old rules, to 'whack' our Fair Use Rights.

In case you are not familiar with it - which I doubt, given your staunch pro-MPAA stance -, let me quote you "CHAPTER 12 -- COPYRIGHT PROTECTION AND MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS / Section 1201. Circumvention of copyright protection systems" of DMCA:

`(c) OTHER RIGHTS, ETC., NOT AFFECTED- (1) Nothing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use, under this title.

`(2) Nothing in this section shall enlarge or diminish vicarious or contributory liability for copyright infringement in connection with any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof.

`(3) Nothing in this section shall require that the design of, or design and selection of parts and components for, a consumer electronics, telecommunications, or computing product provide for a response to any particular technological measure, so long as such part or component, or the product in which such part or component is integrated, does not otherwise fall within the prohibitions of subsection (a)(2) or (b)(1).

`(4) Nothing in this section shall enlarge or diminish any rights of free speech or the press for activities using consumer electronics, telecommunications, or computing products.

`(d) EXEMPTION FOR NONPROFIT LIBRARIES, ARCHIVES, AND EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS- (1) A nonprofit library, archives, or educational institution which gains access to a commercially exploited copyrighted work solely in order to make a good faith determination of whether to acquire a copy of that work for the sole purpose of engaging in conduct permitted under this title shall not be in violation of subsection (a)(1)(A). A copy of a work to which access has been gained under this paragraph--

`(A) may not be retained longer than necessary to make such good faith determination; and

`(B) may not be used for any other purpose.

`(2) The exemption made available under paragraph (1) shall only apply with respect to a work when an identical copy of that work is not reasonably available in another form.

`(3) A nonprofit library, archives, or educational institution that willfully for the purpose of commercial advantage or financial gain violates paragraph (1)--

`(A) shall, for the first offense, be subject to the civil remedies under section 1203; and

`(B) shall, for repeated or subsequent offenses, in addition to the civil remedies under section 1203, forfeit the exemption provided under paragraph (1).

`(4) This subsection may not be used as a defense to a claim under subsection (a)(2) or (b), nor may this subsection permit a nonprofit library, archives, or educational institution to manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, component, or part thereof, which circumvents a technological measure.

`(5) In order for a library or archives to qualify for the exemption under this subsection, the collections of that library or archives shall be--

`(A) open to the public; or

`(B) available not only to researchers affiliated with the library or archives or with the institution of which it is a part, but also to other persons doing research in a specialized field.

And we can go on and on becaue the next subsection clearly states reverse engineering is allowed if it happens to maintain interoperability etc... you have no case, period.

PS: http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/hr2281_dmca_law_19981020_pl105-304.html

Justify it all you want. I am no saint in this regard either, but i dont lie to myself in hopes of making myself believe it.

Piracy is the issue here. You paid for a DVD Movie, you got a movie on a DVD. You didnt get a DVD + version for your psp + version for your ipod + version for your HTPC, etc etc. If you want those versions, they sell those as well. So when you make it yourself, you ARE Stealing.
This isn't exactly true. Copying media from one format to another is usually termed Space Shifting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-shifting). People do it all the time when they copy the contents of their legally purchased Audio CDs onto their personal computers and the put the music on their iPods. Space Shifting has been related to Time Shifting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_shifting) (i.e. recording a television show to watch later), which is legally protected.

Space Shifting is currently in limbo. Some court decisions have favored allowing customers to legally move their legally purchased media from one device to another. Other court decisions have not.

As I see it, Content Owners aren't certain that it's an argument that they will ultimately win so they prefer to keep it in a state of limbo and make people believe that it is illegal. The real problem with Space Shifting DVDs (or other video content) is that one must circumvent the copy protection on the media to do it. This is illegal, but only becasue of the DMCA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA). Which, imho, swings the balance of power too far towards the content owners.

The courts have yet to decide which rights trump the other, the rights of content owners to protect their IP or the rights of content consumers to actually enjoy the content they legally purchased as they have in the past.

So how does it work at the cinema? Should I be allowed to tape it and watch it at home later or is there some fine line there? What about VOD?

Anyone who can answer without being a condescending pratt, their thoughts are appreciated.

By your logic I should be able to go into McDonalds and complain that I want a back-up of my Big Mac so that sometime later in the day, when I'm finished eating and get hungry again, I can eat the back-up and enjoy that Big Mac again.



If one could replace a big mack, the same one can replicate binary data, then yes. But otherwise no. Analogies to real property are retarded, perhaps people should do some research on the origins, justifications and limits of intellectual property.

In regards to 'space-shifting' a strict interpretation of Directive 2001/29/EC, as it is implemented in UK law means that copying a CD to mp3, for use on ones iPod is breach of copyright. It's an absurdity and doesn't fit well with the purpose of IP law, but of course does fit well for corproate windfalls. I am certain that Court's will not criminlise the behaviour of millions of consumers.

Justify it all you want.


You are confused: I have nothing to justify - it is only you who serves certain interests...


I am no saint in this regard either, but i dont lie to myself in hopes of making myself believe it.

Ignorance is blissed, we know that and MPAA is clearly banking on it.

So how does it work at the cinema? Should I be allowed to tape it and watch it at home later or is there some fine line there? What about VOD?


Only speaking about EU law under the new Directive and specifically the UK. But with VoD, if it is delivered via non-internet technology then you have a Section 70 Copyrights, Designs, Patents Act defence - home use for time shifting purposes. However, if you record the VoD service from an internet stream, that is not concurrently broadcast via other methods, then you have no s70 defence and it is illegal.

Yup, how retarded.

Recording in the cinema is strictly prohibited by cinema rules, so would be breach of contract with them as well as criminal penalties.

The cinema situation is a bit stupid. If I want to watch a film in the comfort of my own home, while it is out in the cinema I don't see why I shouldn't be able to purchase a copy. You can think of examples where people would even require a home viewing, perhaps they are disabled, have social phobia or afraid of epileptic fits - maybe this gives rise to challenge under disability legislation.

So how does it work at the cinema? Should I be allowed to tape it and watch it at home later or is there some fine line there? What about VOD?

Anyone who can answer without being a condescending pratt, their thoughts are appreciated.

As soon as you can ask a meaningful question - ie I'm having hard times to figure out what the clearly illegal taping of a cinema has to do with the ownership of a retail DVD - I am sure we will be more than happy to answer it.
However if you refuse to even read the basics on your own and instead keep waiting for somebody to explain everything for you then I'm afraid asking irrelevant questions won't harvest anything else than "condescending pratt"-like replies...

Doom9 thread on BD+ http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=127174

Backups as fair use is arguable. In any case, were backups ever intended by studios in any of the previous and current generation optical media? Have you been backing up your HD DVDs lately?

How about the right to watch it on my computer when I get a BD-ROM drive? I run Linux so I don't think there's going to be an "official" player released that will decode AACS and BD+. That's the reason CSS was cracked on DVDs in the first place -- DVD Jon couldn't play the discs he legally bought on his own computer so he hacked CSS to be able to play the content.

And I do back up my regular DVDs. I don't want to have to rebuy a disc because it got scratched. That is part of "fair use". You have the legal right to make a backup of any movie you buy.

I give it a month, two tops before this is cracked too.

Exactly.. All these scrubs talking about backing up their purchase are full of it. Once I purchase a Blu-Ray what do I have to back it up for? Unless you are using them for drink coasters or mini frisbees... I owned over 100 DVD's and never had to make a back up copy.. They were all in perfect shape when I sold them to a place in California that buys used DVDs a month ago. The majority of people that are complaining about not being able to make copies are the ones that try to sell those copies to others for $5.00....Thieves like that need to go find another job if the one they have is not paying them their desired income. People complain about DVD's being priced at $15 for new releases.. Did you ever think that maybe if the piracy was not so rampant and everyone actually purchased the DVD from the studios we would probably be paying closer to $8.00 for a new releases by now. :mad: (End Rant)

Actually it would probably be closer to $50 if everyone bought their DVDs from the studios, LOL! Or don't you remember how jacked up CD prices used to be before CD burners and MP3s became mainstream? The threat of piracy finally drove down CD prices and made studios release singles for sale as MP3s cheaply. If you can get a song for 99 cents or download it free but risk getting caught, most people pay the 99 cents. If you now change that to $18, most people go for the free download. I had no problem paying $15-20 for a DVD (and have no problem paying $20-$25 for a BD) of a movie that I like but don't kid yourself -- if the studios didn't know BD+ will probably be hacked, they'd be charging twice that.

And I do back up my regular DVDs. I don't want to have to rebuy a disc because it got scratched.


I have a feeling that it is far more cost effective to re-buy the occasional "scratched" DVD, than it is to "Back Up" every single one you buy. :rolleyes:

The "Back Up" argument is a Red Herring. You know this. I know this. And the studios know this. The reason people want to be able to copy movies is to get them free or to pirate them. And that's a fact. "Backing Up" your DVD's, is neither sensible, practical, nor economical.

True, I've only had 3 out of probably about 100 actually be scratched. But with DVD-Rs at about a quarter apiece, I can back up my whole collection for slightly more than the cost of replacing one disc.

The more important issue to me is that I'm able to watch a disc I buy on my computer as well as my DVD player/PS3/whatever else. I couldn't do that when DVDs first came out until DeCSS was released since I run Linux. I'm holding off on buying a BD-ROM drive until BD+ is cracked and then I'll get one for my computer.

I have a feeling that it is far more cost effective to re-buy the occasional "scratched" DVD, than it is to "Back Up" every single one you buy. :rolleyes:

The "Back Up" argument is a Red Herring. You know this. I know this. And the studios know this. The reason people want to be able to copy movies is to get them free or to pirate them. And that's a fact. "Backing Up" your DVD's, is neither sensible, practical, nor economical.

I have a feeling that it is far more cost effective to re-buy the occasional "scratched" DVD, than it is to "Back Up" every single one you buy. :rolleyes:

The "Back Up" argument is a Red Herring. You know this. I know this. And the studios know this. The reason people want to be able to copy movies is to get them free or to pirate them. And that's a fact. "Backing Up" your DVD's, is neither sensible, practical, nor economical.

It especially makes sense for people to back up those titles that, for example, they might use while travelling (I've broken several discs this way in my laptop case) or those that their kids use (animated movies that kids will watch 100 times).

VHS tapes were protective cartridges that went a heck of a lot further towards protecting the media from accidents than DVDs.

Again, it seems that people are going to incredible lengths to defend the actions of studios who are trying to put the consumer over a barrel and treat them like a pirate.

It's up to the studios to find ways to punish the pirates without trampling on fair use consumer rights for products that consumers have purchased.

Those people who are too cheap to pay for a quality copy of a movie and would rather grab some ****** download and watch it on their 15" computer display would do so regardless of DRM protections, etc, that are in place and would never buy the movie anyway!.

In effect, many of the people that movie studios "lose money to" who are pirating their movies (and usually getting crap copies) wouldn't buy them in any case, even if they were "almost free".

"I have a feeling that it is far more cost effective to re-buy the occasional "scratched" DVD, than it is to "Back Up" every single one you buy."

IF it is avaliable. Last time I looked, Clive Cusslers "Raise the Titanic" (the PAL R2 disc, not the butchered version on Amazon.com) cannot be bought any longer but luckily I have ripped the disc and it is stored on a NAS and the original disc is stored away saftely. If it got damaged, there would be no other recourse.

Many DVD titles cannot be replaced as they are out of print.

I will keep my backup. Thank you!

Try to keep in mind that just because you buy a Blu-Ray movie, that doesn't mean you own the rights to the movie. If that were the case, you'd be paying tens of thousands of dollars for the discs. You are paying for the right to PLAY the movie FROM the Blu-Ray disc.

No your not. You're buying the disc and what's on the disc for personal use as you see fit.

I'm perfectly fine knowing that the money I spend on a Blu-Ray limits me to playing that movie from the disc. If I want the privilege to play it from an iPod, I'll pay to download it. It's NOT my movie. If the movie studios want to impose restrictions on what we can and cannot do with THEIR movies, fine. I have the right to either purchase or not purchase the movie.

I'm not fine with this. This isn;t hwo the world works. I buy somethign, it becomes mine.

Do you think that, just because I own the DVD version of a movie, I should get the Blu-Ray version for free?

No, but you should be allowed to convert your version that you bouhgt (DVD), to Blu-Ray via the process of upconversion.

Paying to download the movie for the right to place that movie on your server is not an option that the studios offer.

Well studios are definetly interested in this otherwise the idea of Managed Copy wouldn;t exist.

I don't understand this mentality that you own the movie when you purchase it on disc. It's not within your rights to do with it whatever you want. There are restrictions.

It's not that you own the movie, but you own the disc and what's on the disc. And therefore transcoding, space shifting, backing up, upscalling - as long as all are for personaly use - ie you are not profiteering from it, then you should and are alloowed ot do as you please.

So how does it work at the cinema? Should I be allowed to tape it and watch it at home later or is there some fine line there?

Yes, unless part of your entry to the cinema, and contract when purchasing the ticket clearly states you are not allowed. If i visit a museum should i be allowed to photography a painting? Yes, unless i am specifically informed i'm not.

If i buy a print of a painting should i not be allowed to scan it, blow it up 10x larger and print it out to hang in my hallway? As far as i'm concerned yes i am because

1 - i purchased a legal image
2 - it's all private
3 - i'm not proffiteering from someone elses IP.

The day it's not legal to take a photo of a painting or anything i own and manipulate it as i please is the day i stop buying content.

...The "Back Up" argument is a Red Herring. You know this. I know this. And the studios know this. The reason people want to be able to copy movies is to get them free or to pirate them.
Why is this worthing arguing ? It's called fair use, and it's been settled legally long time ago, being is VHS, DVD, or HDM, that's the law today.
"Backing Up" your DVD's, is neither sensible, practical, nor conomical.
You really don't know what you are talking about :rolleyes:

The "Back Up" argument is a Red Herring. You know this. I know this. And the studios know this. No, using 'piracy' as an excuse to employ such draconian DRM measures, that is a Red Herring. You know this. I know this. And the studios know this.

No, using 'piracy' as an excuse to employ such draconian DRM measures, that is a Red Herring. You know this. I know this. And the studios know this.

Why? What do YOU need to copy their film for? Buy the Disc, put it in the player that it was intended for, and watch it. Anything beyond that is unnecessary.

No, using 'piracy' as an excuse to employ such draconian DRM measures, that is a Red Herring. You know this. I know this. And the studios know this.

Put yourself in the studios' shoes. Would you want your content unprotected, free for mass replication?

Do not bite the hand that feeds you.

BD+ is Now Available


Sweet, so now I can throw my player away and get a new one to enjoy the extra DRM!!!

Put yourself in the studios' shoes. Would you want your content unprotected, free for mass replication?

Do not bite the hand that feeds you.

Studios have been making this claim since VHS. The reality is that if they had their way you would have to give blood and pay a fee every time you viewed "their film".

You bought the movie and should be able to view it and back it up by any means you like for your own use.

Do not bite the hand that feeds you.That sounds like some advice the studios should follow. I feed them with my $, and I keep being bitten by more and more DRM......So the studios need look only at themselves to blame anyone for their problems. Consumers are showing more unwillingness to to put up with this crap, and that is a GREAT thing!

Nobody's crying for Hollywood's content cartels. They can either adapt to new market realities or suffer. If a few of them fall, new sources will take their place.....with business models that are actually of this century.