Is anyone interested in a released of Superman II with the Donner cut, Lester cut and any unused footage being recut into a final definitive cut of the movie?

I think both the Donner and Lester cuts of the movie are far from perfect and that somewhere in amongst all that footage a final definitive cut of the movie could be released that would be superior to both the current Donner and Lester cuts.

Hopefully this may happen for the release of the next Superman movie.

Why don't we wait a couple of years, and use seamless branching!

I like certain things in the Lester and and certain things in the Donner - frankly, I will have to make my own fan-edit of the movie some time to be satisfied. I'd be interested in a new release of Superman 2 on HD but it would really have to be something special since I plan on sticking to watching that version which I will create.

Why don't we wait a couple of years, and use seamless branching!
Sorry, that's in BD Vidi-Live 3.1... :p

I want the theatrical cut.

The Donner cut sucked. So did the Payback directors cut. I think I may start to stay away from these secondary versions. Both of those had no real ending or closure. There is a reason they were both rejected the first time.

Is anyone interested in a released of Superman II with the Donner cut, Lester cut and any unused footage being recut into a final definitive cut of the movie?

I think both the Donner and Lester cuts of the movie are far from perfect and that somewhere in amongst all that footage a final definitive cut of the movie could be released that would be superior to both the current Donner and Lester cuts.

Hopefully this may happen for the release of the next Superman movie.

Agreed, the 2 films are really quite different. The actual footage used for the different versions of the films is quite different after watching the 2 films almost back to back. I would say 20 to 30% at best of the footage is the same. The best version would be a mix of the two.

I prefer to have Marlon Brando in S2.

The Lester cut is to much comedy. Lester is much better when he let the darker side of his film skills come out.

Four musketeers. :)

I want the theatrical cut.

Ditto. While not perfect, it works much better as an actual film than the new one. The new one is great as a curiosity, but it has no flow.

If it had actually been completed by Donner (with an actual ending) back in 1980, that would be one thing... but to cobble it together now just doesn't work.


I waited 25 years to see it, and when I did... it actually made me appreciate the Lester version more. :eek:



A "mix" isn't a bad idea -- leave the stuff that works, add the cool Donner stuff where appropriate... but I doubt it'll ever happen. If they finally put out the theatrical in HD, maybe someone can do it themselves. ;)

Ditto. While not perfect, it works much better as an actual film than the new one. The new one is great as a curiosity, but it has no flow.

If it had actually been completed by Donner (with an actual ending) back in 1980, that would be one thing... but to cobble it together now just doesn't work.


I waited 25 years to see it, and when I did... it actually made me appreciate the Lester version more. :eek:



A "mix" isn't a bad idea -- leave the stuff that works, add the cool Donner stuff where appropriate... but I doubt it'll ever happen. If they finally put out the theatrical in HD, maybe someone can do it themselves. ;)

I agree. The definitive cut should be the Lester cut with the best scenes from the Donner cut added. The Donner Cut intro and title music, the Marlon Brando scenes and the Donner cut Metropolis battle and fortress of solitude scenes. The rest of the scenes are better in the Lester cut.

I find it ironic that Richard Donner accused Lester of being too comical with his approach to the scenes, which is true for a lot of the scenes but Lester filmed the most brutal scene of both the versions with the unused scene of Non killing the child in the country town by throwing the Police emergency light at him. Re-adding that scene would eliminate a glarring cut in the Lester version.

Hmmm.

In most cases, I have concluded that the theatrical cut is actually the best. There are exceptions. Kingdom of Heaven for example.

Generally, the first version that is released in the theatre is the best.

Blade Runner for example. We will have at least 3 cuts in the new release from Warners next fall. (Thank heavens for Warners even if they are only semi-neutral.) I have seen all of the cuts, but when I review them again, I am guessing that I will still prefer the original, voice over, happy ending version.

The Donner cut is interesting but I still like the Lester cut. He brings a certain flair and comedy to the film that is welcome. Superman I is somewhat iconic and serious, a bit of a tongue-in-check is needed by Superman II.

I find it ironic that Richard Donner accused Lester of being too comical with his approach to the scenes, which is true for a lot of the scenes but Lester filmed the most brutal scene of both the versions with the unused scene of Non killing and child in the country town by throwing the Police emergency light at him. Re-adding that scene would eliminate a glarring cut in the Lester version.

Lester can be dark as he showed in the four musketeers. The problem is that he added to many comical scenes in S2.

The donner cut works much better with the first movie. As part 1 and 2 of the same movie.

Lester can be dark as he showed in the four musketeers. The problem is that he added to many comical scenes in S2.

The donner cut works much better with the first movie. As part 1 and 2 of the same movie.

I agree, the intro to the Donner Cut and opening credits were vastly superior to the very cheaply put together Lester cut intro and school boy butchering of the John Williams score in the opening credits.

The movie needs a third party who has no emotional attachment to either movie to edit both movies and also the unused footage (Non killing the child in the country town) together into one final definitive cut.

I agree, the intro to the Donner Cut and opening credits were vastly superior to the very cheaply put together Lester cut intro and school boy butchering of the John Williams score in the opening credits.

The movie needs a third party who has no emotional attachment to either movie to edit both movies and also the unused footage (Non killing the child in the country town) together into one final definitive cut.

I would love to see this. The rough scene where Lois finds out Clark is Superman is the only one I'd leave out of the definitive cut, Oh and the earth spinning. I much prefer the magic kiss.

Or we just give it a rest, and keep the 2 version as an example for history, when the producers screws up franchises. The other example is the Alien series...

Or we just give it a rest, and keep the 2 version as an example for history, when the producers screws up franchises. The other example is the Alien series...

Actually I watched both versions, the Lester cut with the commentary by Ilya Salkind & Pierre Spengler and also the Donner Cut with the commentary by Richard Donner & Tom Mankiewicz. I realised neither side is totally to blame, there were problems on both sides. I believe that amongst all the footage shot for Superman II by both directors, a third party who has no emotional attachment to either version should edit the best footage together into one final definitive cut.

Or we just give it a rest, and keep the 2 version as an example for history, when the producers screws up franchises. The other example is the Alien series...

Yeah but i prefer Aliens : Extended to the Theatrical, The 3rd suck because the sound is incomplete.. and i never saw the first one..

Frankly, I'd rather see a BD of the Lester cut by itself.

Frankly, I'd rather see a BD of the Lester cut by itself.

I second that.

My reason for starting this thread, and I know there are people who have made their own cut of Superman II, is that there is a lot of unused footage from Superman II sitting in a vault. Two scenes I can think of is Superman flying past the Concorde and also of Non throwing the Police emergency light at the child and killing him. I believe a good editor at Warner with access to all the footage could make a vastly superior cut of Superman II than either the Lester or Donner cuts of the movie. Just look at the Donner cut's version of the fight over Metropolis to see how editing can make a good scene into an excellent scene.

The point of the "Donner Cut" was to as closely as possible, given the footage Donner was able to shoot, reconstruct a version of SUPERMAN II that might resemble his version of the film had he actually been allowed to complete it back in 1980-1981. It was NOT about compiling the "best" elements of both versions. The ONLY reason any Lester footage was used at all was to bridge holes because Donner wasn't able to shoot the scenes.

I agree that the Donner cut is not a "complete" film in this sense- as is pointed out even on the DVD commentary, had Donner been allowed to complete the film, the 'turning back time' ending would have been replaced, for example- but as a historical artifact, it's an essential release.

I also agree they should release the Lester cut, as well, on HD as a stand-alone release. But a "best-of hybrid edit" would not represent either of their visions, as much as "fans" may want that.

Vincent

I also agree that between the best Lester footage (including the kid being killed and perhaps even the sequence of Louis attempting to unmask Superman--- since, unfortunately, the only sequence from the Donner Cut surviving is a cobbled together dress rehearsal-- and the line "General, would you care to step outside?") and the best Donner footage... plus stuff that wasn't used in either cut a wholely satisfying and complete movie could be made now knowing that each one by itself is incomplete and inferior.

The ending would have to be a little bit of Donner (with the Arctic Police arresting Luthor and the villains because they just drop out of the picture otherwise) and a little bit of Lester. Because of the ending of II being used for the ending of I, there shouldn't be a time reversal ending, and the Lois magic kiss would have to be put back in.

Do it quickly so perhaps Williams could do a new score blending the two together.

I'm sure it could be done if egos didn't interfere and the budget wasn't so tight as it was for Donner's attempt.

Is it possible that Donner snipped out so much of Lester's good footage not necessarily because he deemed it terrible, but because there are percentage rules for how much one director shoots of the final edit to get soul credit in the titles?

If a blended version were to ever be produced, then they should put BOTH names on the director's billing.

I also agree that between the best Lester footage (including the kid being killed and perhaps even the sequence of Louis attempting to unmask Superman--- since, unfortunately, the only sequence from the Donner Cut surviving is a cobbled together dress rehearsal-- and the line "General, would you care to step outside?") and the best Donner footage... plus stuff that wasn't used in either cut a wholely satisfying and complete movie could be made now knowing that each one by itself is incomplete and inferior.

The ending would have to be a little bit of Donner (with the Arctic Police arresting Luthor and the villains because they just drop out of the picture otherwise) and a little bit of Lester. Because of the ending of II being used for the ending of I, there shouldn't be a time reversal ending, and the Lois magic kiss would have to be put back in.

Do it quickly so perhaps Williams could do a new score blending the two together.

I'm sure it could be done if egos didn't interfere and the budget wasn't so tight as it was for Donner's attempt.

Is it possible that Donner snipped out so much of Lester's good footage not necessarily because he deemed it terrible, but because there are percentage rules for how much one director shoots of the final edit to get soul credit in the titles?

If a blended version were to ever be produced, then they should put BOTH names on the director's billing.

What I realised when watching the Donner cut was how good Richard Lester is as a director and that his scenes we not all that bad. The producers after their falling out with Richard Donner could have done a lot worse than picking Richard Lester as his replacement. I agree a final definitive cut should be done with both directors getting credit. It would be fantastic if John Williams could compose a new score for the movie. I'm sure there would be a market for it and that the discs would sell very well.

I agree a final definitive cut should be done with both directors getting credit. It would be fantastic if John Williams could compose a new score for the movie. I'm sure there would be a market for it and that the discs would sell very well.

I don't agree. Who gets to decide which scenes are used and which aren't. No matter what they do, it will not satisfy everyone and leave them writing "they shoulda used the scene with ____ "

The biggest problems with the Lester cut, IMHO, stem from the fact that Superman and the 3 villains had magical powers that didn't exist in the comic book. They weren't even cool powers.... Superman can throw an S from his chest? They can dissappear and reappear? They can suspend people in the air with some magical powers coming from their fingers? Lois will forget that Superman is Clark, why -- a kiss! Besides those things, though, the movie was pretty good.

The Donner cut had its problems too. How the heck does spinning the earth back cause time to reverse along with it. Even if we can accept a "Superman", how are we supposed to suspend logic for this? And this was done twice. In superman 1 and Donner's 2. Even if we do accept he can do this, what was up with Clark going back to beat up the bully from the restaurant. Would this bully even remember him? I think the best part of Donner's 2 was how he got his powers back.... I never quite understood how he got them back in Lester's version.

Either way, I can pick scenes that I like, and you can pick scenes you like, but who gets to decide in the end?

They should do a choose your own adventure. Put all the scenes in there, and let us construct our own :)

Superman Returns was a decent movie if you could forgive all of its plot-holes. Was it part 3 based on Donner's 2 or Lester's 2. If it's Donner's 2, there shoudlnt be a child. If it's Lester's 2, how does she know Supes is the daddy? Maybe it wa the way the baby kicked :) Where did the "father to son" quote from if it wasn't a sequel to Doner's? Overall, not a bad movie, but not exactly a great movie either. Kinda slow moving, and although I liked how they paid tribute to the original, it felt like they did it TOO MUCH... Also, you notice how Clark/Superman had very few lines in the entire movie? And half of them were repeating what Reeves did!

Someone needs to do to the Superman franchise what was done to Batman. Start it over, and make it better. Superman is my favorite out of all the comic book heroes, but it desperately needs a good movie. If they took some ideas from Smallville, I'm sure they could come up with something.

I think the only way to go is to release the original theatrical cut on HD-DVD/BRD, then really adventurous and dedicated fans can try to piece the two versions together.

The BEST solution is actually given at the end of both Donner's SUPERMAN and his cut of SUPERMAN II- somebody has to go back in time and convince the Salkinds to not fire Donner, and not cut out the Brando footage. This way, we'd have had a true Donner cut all along :)

Vincent

Actually, the earth spinning sequence was supposed to be the end of Superman 2, not Superman I. If you listen to the documentaries on both discs they explain why it happened that way.

Donner just decided to show you how the end of Superman II was sort of supposed to happen with the footage he had to work with, not taking into consideration how Superman I is cut together.

Watching both, watching some of the deleted scenes... one can start to see how an "international" cut could be put together from both directors' footage and have a pretty epic and satisfying and complete film without having to resort to a lot of stock footage, doubles (except during the Donner Fortress of Solitude shots with Brando inserted back in), and old dress rehersals (that would need the Lester version of his "reveal"... face it, the Donner version with the gun is really just as silly). No... not everyone will be happy, but it will be better than the two individual cuts. And Non gets to kill a kid! That one deleted scene shows just how awful the Kryptonian villains really are. You can always have another kid actor do an ADR session to replace the British accent.

And taking the theatrical cut of Superman 1 into account, there would be no duplicate time travel endings.

Dan

Actually, the earth spinning sequence was supposed to be the end of Superman 2, not Superman I. If you listen to the documentaries on both discs they explain why it happened that way.

Donner just decided to show you how the end of Superman II was sort of supposed to happen with the footage he had to work with, not taking into consideration how Superman I is cut together.


I guess I need to listen to commentaries, then. If it was to only spin back at the end of 2, that means Superman 1 isn't a complete movie. If no spinning back occurred in 1, then how would Lois survive. If this is explained, then I may be likely to go and listen to them. Let me know if those questions are answered.

It's really shocking to know that these movies got such crappy treatment when they were being filmed/cut/etc... even though they didnt go in with the intention of switching directors, etc ... in the end, politics ruined the flow between 1 and 2. I've read a good deal about this on a website that originally lobbied for the Donner cut.




Watching both, watching some of the deleted scenes... one can start to see how an "international" cut could be put together from both directors' footage and have a pretty epic and satisfying and complete film without having to resort to a lot of stock footage, doubles (except during the Donner Fortress of Solitude shots with Brando inserted back in), and old dress rehersals (that would need the Lester version of his "reveal"... face it, the Donner version with the gun is really just as silly). No... not everyone will be happy, but it will be better than the two individual cuts. And Non gets to kill a kid! That one deleted scene shows just how awful the Kryptonian villains really are. You can always have another kid actor do an ADR session to replace the British accent.

And taking the theatrical cut of Superman 1 into account, there would be no duplicate time travel endings.

Dan

Like I said, it would be really cool if they offered all the scenes and a way to put your own together. Maybe it's templated with the Lester Version and another template with Donner version, and you can start with those and do whatever you like. This way everytime you watch it, it's a little different :)

Part I and Part II were supposed to be handled as one big movie in 2 parts. That's how it was originally envisioned.

Because Part 1 had run into some cost overrun, release delays, etc. it was decided to place the end of Superman II onto Superman I as they didn't know when Superman II would be completed and there had been no "bridge" written or at least completely filmed to span the two films, and the financiers wanted something (anything, really) to be released to recoup production money. Unfortunately, during the break between movies (although a bulk of both films were shot simultaneously) there was a rift between Donner and the producers and the rest, they say, is history.

Dan

Um... this is Superman 2... right? I hate to say it, but let's face it, this isn't exactly Schindler's List. So frankly, I couldn't care less if they ever do anything more with it. However, I will say that after viewing both versions, that the original theatrical release had the most complete and sensible story line. The Donner cut looked just like what it was, a mish-mesh of poorly spliced together scenes that had some major continuity issues.

I like certain things in the Lester and and certain things in the Donner - frankly, I will have to make my own fan-edit of the movie some time to be satisfied. I'd be interested in a new release of Superman 2 on HD but it would really have to be something special since I plan on sticking to watching that version which I will create.

funny you say that as I have made my own version using the best scenes of the two. It took me a while but the end result is pretty good. I really...really hated Donner's ending, I mean what's the point if Superman has the option of changing time when it suites him. He's not allowed by his father's law to change man's destiny, it's understood why he broke the rule in the first movie but in the second doesn't make any sense.

end of rant. ;)

funny you say that as I have made my own version using the best scenes of the two. It took me a while but the end result is pretty good. I really...really hated Donner's ending, I mean what's the point if Superman has the option of changing time when it suites him. He's not allowed by his father's law to change man's destiny, it's understood why he broke the rule in the first movie but in the second doesn't make any sense.

end of rant. ;)

Actually listening to the commentary the turn back time even at the end of the second movie was because Lois was killed in the fortress of solitude and superman stricken with grief turns back time to bring her back to life. Now that would have been a great ending to the two movies.