Anyone know if NBC will broadcast in HD?


NEWS: BBC's Wimbledon goes HD and online
Jun 12, 2007

The BBC is making the most of its HD trial service for the annual Wimbledon tennis championships - it will be carrying the whole of its coverage in HD. And if you're away from your flatscreen, you can even watch live coverage on your computer.



The annual tennisfest, which kicks off on June 25, will feature the usual team of commentators, including Boris Becker and John McEnroe, who will be joined this year by Martina Navratilova and Greg Rusedski.

And as at the Artois tournament, the Hawk-Eye ball-tracking camera system will be in use to examine disputed line-calls.

But the real treat for HD TV viewers is that the BBC says that "Wimbledon will be broadcast in High Definition (HD) for the entire two weeks of the tournament. There will be 12 hours of coverage per day with the best in live play and highlights from Centre and No.1 Courts from 12.55pm to 1.00am.

"HD coverage will be available on the trial BBC HD Channel to digital satellite and cable viewers who have HD set-top boxes and televisions."

In standard definition, satellite and cable viewers will be able to choose live action from up to five courts a day, and Freeview users up to four, while the interactive service will replay Today at Wimbledon to allow viewers to catch up on the day's play.

Finally, bbc.co.uk/wimbledon will be streaming the live BBC One and BBC Two coverage, as well as providing highlights, results and news.

It's not listed as being shown in HD on their release.
http://nbcumv.com/sports/release_detail.nbc/sports-20070619000000-sportseventsonnbc.html

Officially, NBC has been absolutely silent on this issue. On-air promos of Wimbledon lacks the HD logo, which is usually a big hint.

If you've been following the French Open Widescreen Thread in this forum this month.... A production manager from ESPN (which has cable rights for French Open and Wimbledon) indicated that he was able to learn from NBC people at Roland Garros NBC will not be in HD for Wimbledon this year.

According to his sources, NBC was planning for HD but hit a snag somewhere along the line. The fact that ESPN was able to produce a 16:9 SD feed from the French Open host broadcaster, which is not producing HD, prompted discussions (and expectations) about future tennis broadcasts in 16:9 and/or HD in the U.S. At best, we can pray for a 16:9 SD Wimbledon telecast from NBC this year. Apparently it is easy to go from 4:3 to 16:9, but to leap into HD is both a money and technical hurdle, given the relatively low TV ratings of tennis in America -- especially if they come from a different time zone.

Thanks for the info. Hopefully it will look better than the french open did.
Maybe I should buy a low rez tv so I can watch tennis.

Anyone know if NBC will broadcast in HD?


NEWS: BBC's Wimbledon goes HD and online
Jun 12, 2007

The BBC is making the most of its HD trial service for the annual Wimbledon tennis championships - it will be carrying the whole of its coverage in HD.



I believe that sentence is slightly misleading. The BBC are aiming to make all the coverage that they originate in HD (Centre Court and Court Number One) available to HD viewers (by repeating matches not shown live later in the day).

Last year the HD service (the BBC have a single HD Trial service) only carried live Tennis, so really only showed about half of the HD material when both HD courts were in play.

Not all court coverage is in HD though - there are still plenty of 16:9 SD courts.

I thought it was very poor that NBC did not continue the 16x9 SD coverage for the French Open that ESPN had done for the entire first two weeks of the tournament.

ESPN has early round coverage of Wimbledon. Will they be doing any HD or 16x9 SD?

ESPN's website lists the upcoming Wimbledon events as HD on ESPN2.

ESPN's website lists the upcoming Wimbledon events as HD on ESPN2.

That would be great, but I wouldn't count on it. I think we'll be lucky to get 16:9 SD as we did the French Open.

That would be great, but I wouldn't count on it. I think we'll be lucky to get 16:9 SD as we did the French Open.
Why not? If the BBC HD feed is available, ESPN may well use it.

I'm only basing that on the comments made during the French Open by the AVS member that was an ESPN insider assisting with the French Open broadcast. I don't recall that he specifically denied Wimbledon would be shown in HD, but that the expense to transmit the HD feed would be significantly higher than transmitting the 16:9 SD feed.

Hope I'm wrong, although ESPN's coverage of the French in 16:9 SD was very good.

Thanks for the info. Hopefully it will look better than the french open did.
Maybe I should buy a low rez tv so I can watch tennis.

Sorry your FO experience wasn't so hot. I watched several hours of coverage on The Tennis Channel via D* and found the quality of the picture very good.

ESPN's website lists the upcoming Wimbledon events as HD on ESPN2.

My Programming guide doesn't have it listed as being in HD, neither does ESPN TV listings at http://sports.espn.go.com/espntv/espnGuide

It will be on the HD channel, hopefully in 16x9 SD like the French open or we get the pillars again

So I'm striving to be optimistic about the presentation on NBC. Will the broadcast from England have any better pq than the one from France maybe because the cameras and production facilities are set up for the BBC HD show? And NBC gets their feed off them right?

Hmmm.. ESPN's web site does list Wimbledon as being in HD. http://sports.espn.go.com/espntv/espnGuide Monday June 25th, 8am ESPN2 HD.

I believe this is false however. I was the technical director for ESPN at the French Open and I know their plans were to go 16x9 SD at Wimbledon... But I'm not involved with the Wimbledon broadcast and they could've changed their plans since we all parted ways a few weeks ago, but that seem unlikely as that is a short period of time to change the gameplan that drastically. I'll send an email to one of the directors and technical managers who's over there and see what's up.

As I also indicated in the French Open thread, I spoke with some NBC people while I was at the French and they were looking into HD at one time for Wimbledon, but the plan was to go SD 4x3. Again, that could've changed as well, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Hmmm.. ESPN's web site does list Wimbledon as being in HD. http://sports.espn.go.com/espntv/espnGuide Monday June 25th, 8am ESPN2 HD.

I swear to go that HD icon was not their earlier when i checked, but ya know i could just be a moron

I believe this is false however. I was the technical director for ESPN at the French Open and I know their plans were to go 16x9 SD at Wimbledon... But I'm not involved with the Wimbledon broadcast and they could've changed their plans since we all parted ways a few weeks ago, but that seem unlikely as that is a short period of time to change the gameplan that drastically. I'll send an email to one of the directors and technical managers who's over there and see what's up.

As I also indicated in the French Open thread, I spoke with some NBC people while I was at the French and they were looking into HD at one time for Wimbledon, but the plan was to go SD 4x3. Again, that could've changed as well, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Sad that the networks can't match the coverage for the finals that the sports nets get for the rest fo the tourney. Maybe ESPN will use any and all HD that is available from the BBC

So I'm striving to be optimistic about the presentation on NBC. Will the broadcast from England have any better pq than the one from France maybe because the cameras and production facilities are set up for the BBC HD show? And NBC gets their feed off them right?

The BBC provide mixed court-feeds, some ISOs, as well as pooled interview areas, to other rights holders as host broadcaster.

NBC traditionally contract their on-site production facilities (i.e. the facilities that take in the BBC feed and add NBC specific presentation / replay / graphics etc.) to Visions (now NEP Visions) who have both HD and SD facilities.

BBC Resources haven't traditionally provided NBC with production facilities - I suspect that the BBC would be a bit pressed to do this with their own trucks - as they also have Glastonbury taking place this weekend (a huge multi-stage music festival - with a number of HD stages, and output on BBC One, BBC Two, BBC HD alongside 5 streams on BBC Interactive TV) which runs until the day before Wimbledon on the other side of the country...

The bottom line for NBC and ESPN is the following decision making process :

1. Only two courts are HD, the others are 16:9 SD.

2. Do we run our UK operation entirely in HD and upconvert the 16:9 SD feeds whilst retaining HD quality for Centre Court and Court Number One, and backhaul in HD? (Expensive as HD facilities and links are required even though not all coverage will be HD)

*** Also HD to HD conversion is still not as advanced as SD to SD conversion - and it could be that the SD quality would be reduced as a result of the HD route - especially if the new S&W Alchemist PhC HD converters NBC are buying haven't arrived - they are being bought for Beijing which, like Wimbledon, is 1080/50i. ***

3. Do we run our UK operation entirely in 16:9 SD and upconvert to HD for transmission (ideally directly from 576i and not via 480i) - this gives full widescreen coverage, but no HD, and may mislead people into thinking that this is poor HD? The additional costs would be reworking graphics and titles to 16:9, upconverting to HD and possibly running an HD operation in the US to handle it?

4. Do we run our UK operation entirely in 4:3 as we always have ? (No cost issues)

5. Do we have a hybrid operation - complex and both technically and production-wise difficult to support and sustain effectively - and still costly.

Nothing is simple - especially for commercial broadcasters who have to be ruled by the bottom line... (Commercial TV only exists to make money by selling you stuff, it isn't a public service...)

I spoke with some NBC people while I was at the French and they were looking into HD at one time for Wimbledon, but the plan was to go SD 4x3. Again, that could've changed as well, but I wouldn't hold your breath.Going by NBC's past record I'll bet it's 4:3 SD, but maybe they'll wake-up and smell the peacock poop.
Nothing is simple - especially for commercial broadcasters who have to be ruled by the bottom line... (Commercial TV only exists to make money by selling you stuff, it isn't a public service...)NBC is not a non-profit organization, but they're working on it.

ESPN will be 16x9 SD I have confirmed- so disregard the "HD" on the programming guide. Frankly, the "average joe" probably wouldn't know the difference.

Regarding HD, I hear the BBC and the Club haven't figured out all the details on how to pass on the costs to the visting broadcasters. I hear that has been a major sticking point in the progress of getting Wimbledon in HD. With that in mind, I would expect NBC to remain 4x3 SD as planned but maybe it's not entirely their fault.

Spike, I wouldn't expect Wimbedon to look any better than the French... the camera feeds there also originated from HD cameras.

ESPN will be 16x9 SD I have confirmed- so disregard the "HD" on the programming guide. Frankly, the "average joe" probably wouldn't know the difference.

If ESPN's Wimbledon's coverage in 16:9 SD is as good as it was for the French Open, that will be some consolation.

Can you imagine how terrible HD tennis would look on NBC? :eek:

no thank you

Spike, I wouldn't expect Wimbedon to look any better than the French... the camera feeds there also originated from HD cameras.

The courts will be a nicer colour ...

Can you imagine how terrible HD tennis would look on NBC? :eek:

no thank you

I've been watching Wimbledon since the 80's. It's sad to see NBC's coverage, which used to set the gold standard in PAL-to-NTSC conversion, now bringing up the rear in PQ. Breakfast at Wimbledon no more. It's Breakfast at McDonalds these days, only thing missing are those Shrek kiddie toys.

I've been watching Wimbledon since the 80's. It's sad to see NBC's coverage, which used to set the gold standard in PAL-to-NTSC conversion, now bringing up the rear in PQ. Breakfast at Wimbledon no more. It's Breakfast at McDonalds these days, only thing missing are those Shrek kiddie toys.

I agree with you JCL. NBC used to pride themselves when it came to quality. Before HD, NBC was the standard, but now they are just crap.

NBC is not a non-profit organization, but they're working on it.
Thanks for that lol moment. :D

I agree with you JCL. NBC used to pride themselves when it came to quality. Before HD, NBC was the standard, but now they are just crap.

Isn't NBC Sports a seperate entity from NBC Universal in general or are they all under the same umbrella that Jeff Zucker controls. The moron who said about HD Viewers (http://www.tvpredictions.com/zuckerhd102606.htm), "I'm not overly concerned about it at this point"

Isn't NBC Sports a seperate entity from NBC Universal in general or are they all under the same umbrella that Jeff Zucker controls. The moron who said about HD Viewers (http://www.tvpredictions.com/zuckerhd102606.htm), "I'm not overly concerned about it at this point"

Dick Ebersol who is the Chairman of NBC Universal sports reports to Zucker, so I do not know how much freedom he has to make decisions. I know that he used to have total control before.


http://www.nbcuni.com/About_NBC_Universal/Executive_Bios/ebersol_dick.shtml

Dick Ebersol who is the Chairman of NBC Universal sports reports to Zucker, so I do not know how much freedom he has to make decisions. I know that he used to have total control before.


http://www.nbcuni.com/About_NBC_Universal/Executive_Bios/ebersol_dick.shtml

Next weekend, Dick is probably sitting in his office with a wall of monitors from Wimbledon.... going: compared to ESPN and BBC, "this socks". Can we say this is "An Alan Smithee Production" in TV land? Next year I'm going to ask for more money.

Next weekend, Dick is probably sitting in his office with a wall of monitors from Wimbledon.... going: compared to ESPN and BBC, "this socks". Can we say this is "An Alan Smithee Production" in TV land? Next year I'm going to ask for more money.

Its just pathetic that NBC Sports can't offer the same 16x9 SD for the French Open and most likely Wimbledon that ESPN and ESPN2 are offering.

Props to ESPN for making strides and listening to their customers after the outcry from the Australian Open 16x9 debacle and Shame on NBC Sports for their 4x3 center cut crap.

I prolly would have watched just because it was in WS, but now I will refuse, even if Roddick makes the finals.

At GE (who owns NBC) it's all about making money. If it won't make them more money why show it in HD or even 16:9 SD. I can remember when I worked at GE Capital (now called GE Money) we had a freeze on buying office supplies so we could make sure we hit our profit number of $1 billion (yes with with a "B"). I always said it was a great company to own stock in but a bad company to work for.

At GE (who owns NBC) it's all about making money. If it won't make them more money why show it in HD or even 16:9 SD. I can remember when I worked at GE Capital (now called GE Money) we had a freeze on buying office supplies so we could make sure we hit our profit number of $1 billion (yes with with a "B"). I always said it was a great company to own stock in but a bad company to work for.

But it seems that if you offer a better product, you'd get more viewers and be able to charge more for your TV Ads. You have to spend money to make money.

What is the deal with NBC's decision? It seems like the SD 16:9 vs 4:3 issue is nothing more than mode settings. Graphics can be squeezed to accommodate the WS aspect ratio. They used 16:9 576/50i at the Olympics. WS SD seems like something that could be arranged in a very short time.

I can't see any technical issues that would prevent them from using upconverted 16:9 SD (other than marginal backhaul paths that would soften the image too much). From my understanding NBC upconverts SD to HD, including 4:3, for the commercial coord control room, and then downconverts for the SD network feed.

You have to spend money to make money.

But it doesn't cost a single penny more to broadcast the 16x9 SD feed. Assuming they're renting an ARC to create the 4x3 center-cut (which is usually the case), it will actually cost them less.

What is the deal with NBC's decision? It seems like the SD 16:9 vs 4:3 issue is nothing more than mode settings.

Pretty much... everything should already be in a 16x9 setting anyway since the facilities are all set for 16x9. The graphics machines are aspect ratio aware and will correct a graphic created for 4x3 to display properly in 16x9. If they're smart, any show elements like opens, replays, etc, created in the last few years should all be created in 16x9 with key elements protected inside the 4x3 center-cut frame. If they haven't, you can always add "wings" to those elements.

If the last three posts are correct, then NBC Sports just goes to the bottom of the barrel in about everything for me.

Maybe when they get all HD Cams for PGA Tour Events and use the best picture available, they might work their way up,

What a Mickey mouse operation that seems to have turned into.

The only technical barrier I can think of is a very low bitrate backhaul, which would lower the SD resolution and make a downstream center cut impractical. Wimbledon is a premiere event, and I would hope that NBC wouldn't be cheaping out in this area. OTH from some of the technical decisions I've seen over the years, that wouldn't surprise me.

I just found out how much the NBC is spending on Wimbledon for the broadcast right here's the link from TV week.com..... :)
http://tvweek.com/news/2007/06/nbc_espn_close_in_on_wimbledon.php

Yes I think it's pretty lame for not broadcasting in HD and I think NBC has shot itself in the foot for not doing it IMHO! :p

Oh well now back to TV DXing........... :D

6-25-07

We don't have a TV tuned to Wimbledon at work. I found out there's a rain delay on opening day. What's ESPN showing? Is it 16:9? Are old archives available in 16:9?

Widescreen only in Australia but it looks alright.

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/3378/wimbledonsd1080iucrt6.th.jpg (http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/3378/wimbledonsd1080iucrt6.jpg)

Note: Capture not deinterlaced.

Looks like 16:9 SD on ESPN2HD.

TSNHD in canada doing nothing, just showing the 4:3 with the black bars.

TSNHD in canada doing nothing, just showing the 4:3 with the black bars.

Somebody should give 'em a call, or shoot some e-mails over. They can be very erratic. They had the French Open in 16:9, but obviously missed the memo from ESPN. Just as bad as the peacock network.

Looks like 16:9 SD on ESPN2HD.
Looks that way.
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/3892/espn2dq0.th.jpg (http://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=espn2dq0.jpg)

Are old archives available in 16:9?
No, you won't see that because they're 4x3. In order to make them 16x9 you have to blow them up, losing footage on the top and bottom, or stretch it, making everyone look fat.... and the camera already adds 5lbs. Right now they're showing the 1980 final between Borg and McEnroe. Nice to be sitting at home on the couch for once instead of inside a dark control room behind a switcher.

No, you won't see that because they're 4x3. In order to make them 16x9 you have to blow them up, losing footage on the top and bottom, or stretch it, making everyone look fat.... and the camera already adds 5lbs. Right now they're showing the 1980 final between Borg and McEnroe. Nice to be sitting at home on the couch for once instead of inside a dark control room behind a switcher.

There just isn't a perfect solution for blowing up or stetching 4x3 material to 16x9. Each method has pros and cons. They should leave it up to the viewers, and our TV's should have a flexible scaling scheme to allow for customization.

I wish I could see Borg/McEnroe in HD. Federer/Nadal just doesn't compare.

Pretty good looking 16:9 SD on ESPN2HD. :)

But it doesn't cost a single penny more to broadcast the 16x9 SD feed. Assuming they're renting an ARC to create the 4x3 center-cut (which is usually the case), it will actually cost them less.

NBC won't need an ARC as the BBC provide all feeds on the main Wimbledon router (that host broadcasters have destinations on) in both 4:3 and 16:9 variants - so NBC would be given 4:3 feeds by the BBC rather than having to ARC 16:9 feeds themselves. This is because many broadcasters at Wimbledon will still be working in 4:3 and some will only have relatively limited facilities and resources.

No, you won't see that because they're 4x3. In order to make them 16x9 you have to blow them up, losing footage on the top and bottom, or stretch it, making everyone look fat.... and the camera already adds 5lbs. Right now they're showing the 1980 final between Borg and McEnroe. Nice to be sitting at home on the couch for once instead of inside a dark control room behind a switcher.

Classic archive matches will be 4:3 PAL - however the BBC have been covering Wimbledon in 16:9 for quite a few years now - so more recent matches are in the BBC archive in 16:9.

Of course other broadcasters may have archived their own 4:3 versions - and would want to TX these as they would have domestic graphics and commentary.

Pretty good looking 16:9 SD on ESPN2HD. :)

The Henman Moya match on BBC HD doesn't look that great. Way too much edge on it - not helped by the late evening sun and missing roof meaning there is a much greater issue with sun/shade and blown out whites.

They do need to wind down the aperture correction though - particularly on the main court wide - it is far from great on BBC Two SD.

Looks that way.
http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/3892/espn2dq0.th.jpg (http://img49.imageshack.us/my.php?image=espn2dq0.jpg)

From the screen shots in this thread I see Australia takes the BBC/Wimbledon host graphics and ESPN2HD add their own.

(Do the ESPN2HD graphics stay up on all shots - or do they only appear on the main wide shot and disappear on the close-ups as on the BBC feed?)

The typography on the ESPN2 HD top left score bug is horrid - changing the fount compression for each player looks really poor IMHO.

NBC won't need an ARC as the BBC provide all feeds on the main Wimbledon router (that host broadcasters have destinations on) in both 4:3 and 16:9 variants - so NBC would be given 4:3 feeds by the BBC rather than having to ARC 16:9 feeds themselves. This is because many broadcasters at Wimbledon will still be working in 4:3 and some will only have relatively limited facilities and resources.

The BBC gave NBC an easy "out" by supplying a 4:3, which is probably cheaper too. If the 16:9 costs just the same or cheaper -- or better yet, stop supplying a 4:3, NBC will have no other choice but to go 16:9 or HD, period !

Too bad, there's still a need for 4:3 for all other non-HD clients for a decade or more.

NBC won't need an ARC as the BBC provide all feeds on the main Wimbledon router (that host broadcasters have destinations on) in both 4:3 and 16:9 variants - so NBC would be given 4:3 feeds by the BBC rather than having to ARC 16:9 feeds themselves.

I highly doubt NBC is taking the 4x3 feeds. They would want to do a 16x9 show so they can melt 16x9 highlights to archive tapes for future shows. Plus they did 16x9 at the French and rather than change all the settings in the entire truck and other facilities to 4x3, they'd likely keep everything in 16x9, especially since the visions truck they use is HD and already setup for 16x9. But I could be wrong.

The BBC gave NBC an easy "out" by supplying a 4:3, which is probably cheaper too. If the 16:9 costs just the same or cheaper -- or better yet, stop supplying a 4:3, NBC will have no other choice but to go 16:9 or HD, period !


Not the BBC's call though - they provide what they are contractually required to as host broadcasters. If they are required to provide 4:3 - then they do.


Too bad, there's still a need for 4:3 for all other non-HD clients for a decade or more.

Yep - worth remembering there are countries out there with relatively basic broadcasting infrastructure - like much of Africa.

Does anyone know am email address where we could send our complaints for this debacle.
Once again NBC shows why they are the Turkey network.

The Henman Moya match on BBC HD doesn't look that great. Way too much edge on itMust be a French video operator :D

I highly doubt NBC is taking the 4x3 feeds. They would want to do a 16x9 show so they can melt 16x9 highlights to archive tapes for future shows. Plus they did 16x9 at the French and rather than change all the settings in the entire truck and other facilities to 4x3, they'd likely keep everything in 16x9, especially since the visions truck they use is HD and already setup for 16x9. But I could be wrong.

Yep - could go either way.

Which Visions truck was it? HD1?

Must be a French video operator :D

It's not that bad...

Yep - could go either way.

Which Visions truck was it? HD1?

I think it was HD5 but don't quote me on that.

I´m currently staying in Europe and get Wimbledon through the BBC HD Feed. I have to say that the picture is pretty sharp, but somehow the replays aren`t that good. These replays are very bad. I don´t know why, the live picture seems to be good, ok, a little bit grainy, but not that bad.

I hope any european channel will pick up the US Open in HD, cause I have to stay over the summer. I saw it three years ago on the european ESPN called Eurosport and it wasn´t that nice, awful. Night Seassion of the US Open in HD are better than any Wimbledon. Sorry, but that`s the truth.


@sneals: I read that the BBC will cover the line cam for recalls in HD. I didn`t see it on the HD Feed?

Doug

I thought picture for the Federer match was very good.

NBC - please listen up. Here's the preferred order of broadcasts specs:

Great - HD (16x9 implied)
Good - 16x9 SD upconverted to HD broadcast
Okay - 16x9 SD
Bad - 4x3 SD


As long as I'm ranting - its time to start letterboxing ALL HD programming when its shown on an SD channel, including sports (no center cut protection). Consider it education for the uninformed.

As long as I'm ranting - its time to start letterboxing ALL HD programming when its shown on an SD channel, including sports (no center cut protection). Consider it education for the uninformed.As mentioned before, the irony is NBC does more true 16:9 shows with letterboxing on SD than any other broadcast network.

Is TSNHD still picking up the 4:3 ESPN2 feed? I actually sent them an e-mail through their website yesterday, so far no response.

I think the reason for picking up the 4:3 feed is the presence of the ESPN2HD sports ticker, which cannot be eliminated by TSN without degrading the picture. Somehow TSN was able to obtain a ticker-free ESPN2 feed, but it's 4:3.

As long as I'm ranting - its time to start letterboxing ALL HD programming when its shown on an SD channel, including sports (no center cut protection). Consider it education for the uninformed.


I 2nd this, everything needs to be letterboxed

Is TSNHD still picking up the 4:3 ESPN2 feed? I actually sent them an e-mail through their website yesterday, so far no response.

I think the reason for picking up the 4:3 feed is the presence of the ESPN2HD sports ticker, which cannot be eliminated by TSN without degrading the picture. Somehow TSN was able to obtain a ticker-free ESPN2 feed, but it's 4:3.

Ive emailed TSN as well, but I have *never* received a response from them.

So I expect 4:3 for the whole 2 weeks. :mad:

After looking through last years posting on another forum, TSN didnt do 16x9 for Wimbledon last year either. shrug

I watched a little of the Wimbledon coverage on ESPN2 HD this morning and was gratified to see that it was in 16:9 format. Although not HD, of course, it nevertheless looked good.

Do you guys not have the picture cut out on you? I think I'm losing signal strength.

Anyone know what transponder ESPN 2 HD is on DirecTV, so I can check my signal strength? Thanks

TSNHD is now showing it in 16x9.. with the ESPN2 ticker.

The screen is more like 16:8 because of that ESPN2HD ticker. :(

I'm watching tennis, I couldn't care less what other scores are.

The screen is more like 16:8 because of that ESPN2HD ticker. :(

I'm watching tennis, I couldn't care less what other scores are.

Glad to see TSNHD's doing it. The benefits of 16:8 outweigh 4:3.

Tennis really does not benefit from 16:9 since they continue to use the camera behind one player.

Tennis really does not benefit from 16:9 since they continue to use the camera behind one player.

With all due respect I disagree. Tennis is much more 3-dimensional than you think. If you view some of the lower level camera shots which U.S. networks are much more likely to use, the rapid laterial movements of some of the players are more easily captured and appreciated with a widescreen shot.

With all due respect I disagree. Tennis is much more 3-dimensional than you think. If you view some of the lower level camera shots which U.S. networks are much more likely to use, the rapid laterial movements of some of the players are more easily captured and appreciated with a widescreen shot.
I agree, in fact I can’t think of any sport that doesn’t look better on TV when it is shot and shown in 16:9 format.

Tennis really does not benefit from 16:9 since they continue to use the camera behind one player.

What camera would like to see them use?

Here's YOUR chance to pose some questions directly to NBC (note: no mention of HD or widescreen in the press release)


MCENROE, ROBINSON PREVIEW NBC's WIMBLEDON COVERAGE WEDNESDAY, 2:15 PM ET

Dial 913/981-5591 To Participate



NEW YORK – June 26, 2007 –Three-time Wimbledon champion and NBC analyst John McEnroe, and host Ted Robinson will preview NBC's coverage of The Championships, Wimbledon on a media teleconference Wednesday, June 27 at 2:15 p.m. ET. To participate dial 913/981-5591 and ask for the NBC Wimbledon call.

NBC's match coverage begins Saturday, June 30, and is highlighted by one of the great traditions in sport, "Breakfast at Wimbledon," live coverage of the Ladies' and Gentlemen's Finals on Saturday, July 7 and Sunday, July 8. Robinson hosts NBC's coverage alongside analysts McEnroe and Mary Carillo, and reporter Bud Collins.


NBC's Wimbledon Broadcast Schedule:

Saturday, June 30 - Noon-3 p.m. ET - 3rd Round (live and same-day tape)

Sunday, July 1 - Noon-3 p.m. ET - No Sunday matches (tape)

Monday, July 2 - 10 a.m.-1 p.m.(all time zones) - Round of 16 (live and same-day tape)
11:35-11:50 p.m. ET/PT - Wimbledon Update

Tuesday, July 3 - 10 a.m.-1 p.m.(all time zones) - Ladies' Quarterfinals (live and same-day tape)
11:35-11:50 p.m. ET/PT- Wimbledon Update

Wednesday, July 4 - 10 a.m.-1 p.m.(all time zones) - Gentlemen's Quarterfinals (live and same-day tape)
11:35-11:50pm ET/PT - Wimbledon Update

Thursday, July 5 - Noon - 5 p.m.(all time zones) - Ladies' Semifinals (same day tape)
11:35-11:50 p.m. ET/PT - Wimbledon Update

Friday, July 6 - Noon - 5 p.m.(all time zones) - Gentlemen's Semifinals (same day tape)
11:35 p.m.-12:05 a.m. ET/PT - Wimbledon Update

Saturday, July 8 - 9 a.m.- 2 p.m. ET - "Breakfast at Wimbledon" (live) Ladies' Final

Sunday, July 9 - 9 a.m.- 3 p.m. ET - "Breakfast at Wimbledon" (live) Gentlemen's Final

*All telecasts are subject to change due to rain delays.

Does anyone know am email address where we could send our complaints for this debacle.
Once again NBC shows why they are the Turkey network.

from www.nbcumv.com website .....

CONTACT INFORMATION
Russo, Alana
Manager - Communications
Phone: (212) 664-6772
Email: alana.russo@nbcuni.com
Division: NBC Sports

I agree, in fact I can’t think of any sport that doesn’t look better on TV when it is shot and shown in 16:9 format.

Of course it looks better when it fills up your widescreen without pillar bars. But what extra stuff do you see when they use the base line camera for 90% of the shots? The chair umpire, and the ball boys. With Football, Hockey and Basketball you see more of the playing area. A couple of years ago ESPN did the Pilot Pen in HD and used a camera positioned at center court looking down the net. They even showed it letterboxed on the SD channel. I haven't seen any other tennis televised that way since.

Tennis really does not benefit from 16:9 since they continue to use the camera behind one player.

disagree! It gives you a much more feel of "you're there" compared with the standard 4:3, even with the behind the player camera view.

16:9 fills one's peripheral vision better, even when the framing is for safe 4:3. Why throw away something that's already there?

Tennis really does not benefit from 16:9 since they continue to use the camera behind one player.

Since many are refutting you I will chime in here. I think they maybe misreading what you are trying to say.

I agree if I think what you are saying is what I have said before. 16x9 is a rectangular shape. The tennis court is a rectangular shape just like hockey. The cameras should be shooting just like hockey from the center court postion, not from behind a player especially when it is 16x9.

The screen is more like 16:8 because of that ESPN2HD ticker. :(

I'm watching tennis, I couldn't care less what other scores are.

I agree with jdspencer, how hard is it today to go and get a score if we really need it? Especially at this time of year, the slowest time for sports news.
It is during tennis tourneys that I think about getting a piece of cardboard, sticking on some velcro, and blacking out the ticker.
And how many times have I seen the score of a game or match on the ticker that I am watching tape delayed? Many.

This is not a 4:3 vs 16:9 issue, but I hate it when they are showing a player just about to serve in a wide/far shot, and then they switch to a close up shot right before he hits the ball. I would much rather see the player's full service motion - from the toss to the way he strikes the ball.

P.S. I much prefer the 16:9 coverage. Especially ESPN's broadcasts. It was painful to watch the French Open finals on NBC!

The cameras should be shooting just like hockey from the center court postion, not from behind a player especially when it is 16x9.

No way. I've seen tennis shot from the side from inside the TV truck (camera 11 at the French Open was at center court) and trust me, it's not something you want to watch all day. The camera has to zoom out all the way just to barely get both players in the frame edge to edge- and it looks like a big wide shot of the stadium. The players are very little not to mention they're out of 4x3 safe... if you letterbox for SD, now the players are even smaller and good luck seeing the ball on a SD set. At that angle, the court also appears very narrow it's hard to see any angle in the line of the ball, something you want to see with tennis.

This is not a 4:3 vs 16:9 issue, but I hate it when they are showing a player just about to serve in a wide/far shot, and then they switch to a close up shot right before he hits the ball. I would much rather see the player's full service motion - from the toss to the way he strikes the ball.

P.S. I much prefer the 16:9 coverage. Especially ESPN's broadcasts. It was painful to watch the French Open finals on NBC!

That close up thing on the serve is one of my pet peeves also. Why is it necessary to have a closeup of their faces. It's reminds me of the way Fred Astair wanted to photographed when he was dancing, full body shots and a minimum of edits. Anything else takes you away from the performance.

No way. I've seen tennis shot from the side from inside the TV truck (camera 11 at the French Open was at center court) and trust me, it's not something you want to watch all day. The camera has to zoom out all the way just to barely get both players in the frame edge to edge- and it looks like a big wide shot of the stadium. The players are very little not to mention they're out of 4x3 safe... if you letterbox for SD, now the players are even smaller and good luck seeing the ball on a SD set. At that angle, the court also appears very narrow it's hard to see any angle in the line of the ball, something you want to see with tennis.

Exactly the same reason why the lead camera from baseball games is the one behind center field.

That close up thing on the serve is one of my pet peeves also. Why is it necessary to have a closeup of their faces. It's reminds me of the way Fred Astair wanted to photographed when he was dancing, full body shots and a minimum of edits. Anything else takes you away from the performance.

This one is harder to call, and is tough to debate. Every sports director, every broadcaster, is a little different. In the 70's and 80's, technology limits the number of cameras broadcasters were able to place, and closeups were minimal. As sports became more "entertainment" and athletes became "entertainers" over the years, psychology, tension, pressure all became common sportcasters' vocabularies. Closeups therefore become more frequent and in-your-face. Could you imagine the famous Jimmy Connors-Aaron Krickstein U.S. Open encounter without closeups of a sweating and strategizing Jimmy? "How can I beat this young guy?" "Get behind me, crowd!"

At the end of the day, these telecasts tell you a story. The trick is to tell it without having the technology get in the way. To me, closeups are okay as long as they don't disrupt the flow, and don't prevent me from looking at what I want to look at most.

I agree with the close up thing. Some directors think they're missing something or not showing something if they're not cutting cameras. It's great to see a closeup if it supports what the announcers are saying or it tells a story, like tension or determination. The same thing happens in football, the directors are cutting tight, cutting tight and you don't get to see the game camera until just before the ball is snapped having only moments to see the formation.

I am not against close ups of the players (especially the females!) but don't switch to a tight shot just as the ball is about to be hit. Why do I want to see the guy's face contort and he's usually out of frame anyway because he's leaning one way or the other.

Good direction definitely helps the coverage. But here's a puzzling scenario:

At the French Open, I noticed that the camera would zoom in close on the players' hands as they were waiting to receive serve. I'm not sure what the director was going for, but usually you just had a tight shot of their crotches! Ratings, I guess? ;)

There was a great scene that was shown at Wimbledon from last year(?) of a super slo-mo of Roger Federer's forehand. That was the best! Luckily I had recorded it and was able to capture it on my computer so I can replay it whenever I want!!!

Since many are refutting you I will chime in here. I think they maybe misreading what you are trying to say.

I agree if I think what you are saying is what I have said before. 16x9 is a rectangular shape. The tennis court is a rectangular shape just like hockey. The cameras should be shooting just like hockey from the center court postion, not from behind a player especially when it is 16x9.

That's what I was trying to get across. Tennis in 4:3 is not different from tennis in 16:9 as long as they continue to use a baseline camera from behind a player. Sure 16:9 is visually more appealing on our widescreen tv's, but you're not missing any action with tennis in 4:3.

Sure 16:9 is visually more appealing on our widescreen tv's, but you're not missing any action with tennis in 4:3.

True, I agree with your statement here. Widescreen and/or HD productions are usually 4:3 protected (with the exception of HDnet, I think) so key actions are always captured. But widescreen viewing is a different experience IMO. They give you a wider perspective, which includes the atmosphere in the stands, in the arena, and in the case of team sports, more players.

Tennis in 4:3 is not different from tennis in 16:9 as long as they continue to use a baseline camera from behind a player.

In the higher baseline camera in the stands yes. If you go with a lower level baseline camera, no. The sudden and often unpredictable lateral movements of players make it harder on the cameras to keep them within the 4:3. 16:9 gives you a higher margin of error.

No way. I've seen tennis shot from the side from inside the TV truck (camera 11 at the French Open was at center court) and trust me, it's not something you want to watch all day. The camera has to zoom out all the way just to barely get both players in the frame edge to edge- and it looks like a big wide shot of the stadium. The players are very little not to mention they're out of 4x3 safe... if you letterbox for SD, now the players are even smaller and good luck seeing the ball on a SD set. At that angle, the court also appears very narrow it's hard to see any angle in the line of the ball, something you want to see with tennis.


I am saying that if it was in HD, the side view with the proper lens and settings, should render a good view of the game. It works in hockey and hockey is constant movement and a quite a bit bigger surface area.

I am saying that if it was in HD, the side view with the proper lens and settings, should render a good view of the game. It works in hockey and hockey is constant movement and a quite a bit bigger surface area.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall of your living room when you watch tennis. HD or not.

That close up thing on the serve is one of my pet peeves also. Why is it necessary to have a closeup of their faces. It's reminds me of the way Fred Astair wanted to photographed when he was dancing, full body shots and a minimum of edits. Anything else takes you away from the performance.

That's a common trend for most sports coverage, the infatuation with close-ups. Quarterbacks, pitchers, anything. I've been longing for simple wide shots of the whole field, in longer duration too, especially in HD.

By the way, is it going to be just like the French Open, high quality 16x9 on ESPNhd weekdays, then garbage 4x3 in weekends on NBC for the finals ??

Did anyone see the movie "Wimbledon?" Of course, it was widescreen and not 4:3. I remember being very shocked at the tennis play in the movie because it was NOT shot from behind the player most of the time. There were cross-court angles that made interesting use of the widescreen space. I'm not saying this would be preferred over how it's shot today, as there was artistic license at play in the movie. But, there are certainly more options available to a producer today than there used to be and they should take advantage by trying a few new things.

That's a common trend for most sports coverage, the infatuation with close-ups. Quarterbacks, pitchers, anything. I've been longing for simple wide shots of the whole field, in longer duration too, especially in HD.

By the way, is it going to be just like the French Open, high quality 16x9 on ESPNhd weekdays, then garbage 4x3 in weekends on NBC for the finals ??

Ideally, an HD production needs to be shot and paced differently because of the scope and added perspectives inherent. Networks has only one commentary team who can only address one feed make this tricky. So these days we're dealing with mostly one unified HD/SD production. About the constant cutaways to closeup, I think the BBC did a much better job than most -- striking the right balance. When NBC mixes its own cameras with the BBC feed, sometimes there was a bit of "disharmonization".

About the NBC 4:3 issue...... I urge all tennis/HD purists to e-mail NBC, or ask questions on this afternoon's conference call -- if you can. (The information you need are on this thread) Put them on notice!! If they want it that way, they have to defend it -- I don't think there's a good enough reason for them anyway.

TSNHD again is going with 16:8 plus the ESPN2 Bottom Line today. 16:9 is definitely better than lame 4:3. Curiously, they have renamed the ticker "TSN Bottom line".

Guys in the control room, this ticker was never a welcomed feature to sports fans (at least Soccer and tennis fans) south of the border. Why re-brand it as your own, and accept the blame for this unnecessary intrusion? Let the ESPN2 ticker stay if you can't remove it (we want the 16:8 not 4:3), but it's more than creative to say it's yours.

I am saying that if it was in HD, the side view with the proper lens and settings, should render a good view of the game. It works in hockey and hockey is constant movement and a quite a bit bigger surface area.

I understand what you're saying, and yes, from the side would make everything fit a little better on screen. But do you use that camera for your primary game camera just because it looks nicer on your HD set even if the players are half the size and it's hard to see what angle they're hitting?

In hockey the action is only in about one half of the ring at time so you can zoom in closer and pan with the action, you don't have to stay goalie to goalie. Panning from that angle in tennis would give me a headache. Hockey is a team sport, you don't have to see all players all the time. Singles tennis is a battle between one other player, you always want to see both players. If hockey was two players:goalie vs goalie, you would not want to sit there and watch a hockey game from the side angle because of how far the camera would have to zoom out to always include both goalies. Different sport, different coverage.

Ive never seen a good quality broadcast of tennis yet even on my HD channels. Really disappointing.

Ive never seen a good quality broadcast of tennis yet even on my HD channels. Really disappointing.

Go on a trip to London in June and July, your eyes will feast.

In a few years, when the norm for tv size is 52", tennis coverage will be able to do a triple split screen with wide angle shot of the action on the top half of the screen and then the bottom half will have 2 more boxes to show close ups of both players!!!

Ive never seen a good quality broadcast of tennis yet even on my HD channels. Really disappointing.

You haven't seen CBS's HD coverage of the U.S. Open?

In a few years, when the norm for tv size is 52", tennis coverage will be able to do a triple split screen with wide angle shot of the action on the top half of the screen and then the bottom half will have 2 more boxes to show close ups of both players!!!

Be careful what you wish for! ;-)

Actually, in X more years when TV is nothing more than streaming video via the Internet, you'll be able to pick and choose what angle you watch.

In a few years, when the norm for tv size is 52", tennis coverage will be able to do a triple split screen with wide angle shot of the action on the top half of the screen and then the bottom half will have 2 more boxes to show close ups of both players!!!

I would disagree with this view of the future. The size of the TV is a function of how far one sits away from the screen. So in my living room, I sit about 10 feet away from my 50" TV. The image is the correct size. Splitting the screen with PIP, or two equal images, results in two smaller sized pictures, which would not be acceptable.

I think that mtiffee has it right (again). Controlling which angle you want to watch the action from is the future of internet viewing. Of course, remember that the hype of HD digital broadcasts was that we would have choices of viewing angle, language, and other options. Instead the FCC has allowed the broadcasters to send out a watered down HD telecast, and use the other bandwidth for shopping channels, weather and news.

Or in the case of Wimbledon on NBC, 4:3 crap ola vision :eek: :confused:

MCENROE, ROBINSON PREVIEW NBC's WIMBLEDON COVERAGE WEDNESDAY, 2:15 PM ET

Dial 913/981-5591 To Participate

NEW YORK – June 26, 2007 –Three-time Wimbledon champion and NBC analyst John McEnroe, and host Ted Robinson will preview NBC's coverage of The Championships, Wimbledon on a media teleconference Wednesday, June 27 at 2:15 p.m. ET. To participate dial 913/981-5591 and ask for the NBC Wimbledon call.


It is almost time for this conference call. I say we all get on the call, and keep asking the same question:

I'm from the AVS Forum, is the weekend coverage of Wimby going to be in HD, or at least as good as ESPN2's SD 16:9? If not, why?

I'm from the AVS Forum, is the weekend coverage of Wimby going to be in HD, or at least as good as ESPN2's SD 16:9? If not, why?Caller are you there? We seem to have lost our caller. Let's move on to the next one.

Topic title edited.

I´m currently staying in Europe and get Wimbledon through the BBC HD Feed. I have to say that the picture is pretty sharp, but somehow the replays aren`t that good. These replays are very bad. I don´t know why, the live picture seems to be good, ok, a little bit grainy, but not that bad.


Were you watching the evening coverage? If so then many of the replays are 100/150i (not sure which) super slow motion cameras which are not usually cut up live - and are not as sensitive as they get only 1/2 or 1/3 the exposure period of 50i cameras. Wimbledon matches often run right until darkness stops play - and though the 50i cameras are sensitive enough to cope with the low lighting conditions (you can see the lights are on in the corridors on some angles) the super slow motion cameras struggle in these low lighting conditions and have lots of gain put in which makes them noisy.



I hope any european channel will pick up the US Open in HD, cause I have to stay over the summer. I saw it three years ago on the european ESPN called Eurosport and it wasn´t that nice, awful. Night Seassion of the US Open in HD are better than any Wimbledon. Sorry, but that`s the truth.



Does the US Open use flood lighting for evening play - or stick with available light? Wimbledon is quite traditional still and stops play when it gets too dark to see the balls (ironically it often looks brighter on screen than on court!)

Once the roof goes onto Centre Court it will be a bit different I guess - though I hear the roof goes on for the day - to allow the court to acclimatise - rather than opening and closing as the rain starts and stops!



@sneals: I read that the BBC will cover the line cam for recalls in HD. I didn`t see it on the HD Feed?

Doug

By Line Cam do you mean HawkEye (the CGI recreation system)? They've moved Cyclops (the previous "beep" device) from Centre Court and Court Number One I believe and replaced it officially with HawkEye (previously a TV presentation device only) AIUI the SD feeds of Centre Court and Court Number One are straight downconverts of the HD origination - and there is an HD HawkEye on both courts.

I've been pretty busy working at work away from any network feeds - but I'm pretty certain it's been used.

US Open has night sessions, with stadium lights. The rowdy evening crowds make the US Open unique.

Topic title edited.

Not that it really matters, but Wimbledon is shown on ESPN2 HD, not ESPN HD.

Going back to the sudden cuts to close-ups during the service motion, I have the reverse complaint. Why oh why (oh why oh WHY) do directors always insist on cutting AWAY the second the players get to the net for the handshake? We get to watch them walk up, walk up, extend their hands.... Then suddenly we're looking at the crowd getting up from their seats and walking to the aisles. Then we see the players shaking hands with the umpire. I can't tell you how many times this happens. And it's just beyond absurd.

On topic, I think the ESPN2HD picture is quite nice. That grass sure is green! And NBC ought to be ashamed.

Ive never seen a good quality broadcast of tennis yet even on my HD channels. Really disappointing.


I've seen great HD tennis on ESPN2. The best was Amelia Island last year or the year before. It blew me away. It really was like being there. The wind was blowing like crazy and all this crap from the trees was falling on the players and the court. You could even see the clay blowing around and getting in their hair and eyes. Very cool. You could also pick up on the way the wind was altering the flight of the ball.

My best tennis shot is the low placed camera behind the returner (especially females). You really get a feeling for what it's like to return those monster serves.

Caller are you there? We seem to have lost our caller. Let's move on to the next one.

Were NBC's PR people trying to protect their star commentators? I couldn't call in because I was on an airplane, would love to have heard that exchange (or the lack thereof). NBC's totally disconnected from the rest of us!

Did anyone else ask about the lack of HD?

Going back to the sudden cuts to close-ups during the service motion, I have the reverse complaint. Why oh why (oh why oh WHY) do directors always insist on cutting AWAY the second the players get to the net for the handshake? We get to watch them walk up, walk up, extend their hands.... Then suddenly we're looking at the crowd getting up from their seats and walking to the aisles. Then we see the players shaking hands with the umpire. I can't tell you how many times this happens. And it's just beyond absurd.

yes, it drives me crazy too. I can't imagine a director, who knows anything about tennis, sitting in the truck and saying "cut away from the players as soon as they get to the net, so we can show the players fans, who we have shown about 500 times during the match, and who will look the same in 15 seconds, after the handshake, so we can miss the handshake and pat on the back from the players".

What are they thinking?

Were NBC's PR people trying to protect their star commentators? I couldn't call in because I was on an airplane, would love to have heard that exchange (or the lack thereof). NBC's totally disconnected from the rest of us!

Did anyone else ask about the lack of HD?

The poster was just embellishing my suggestion that we all call in. I can't imagine paying for a toll call to listen to a PR press conference, especially when the actual broadcast on NBC looks like doo doo.

Not that it really matters, but Wimbledon is shown on ESPN2 HD, not ESPN HD.
Of course it matters. We strive for accuracy. Topic title edited.

After finally being able to catch up some highlights this evening, I'll tell you that I'd take this 480 widescreen any day over that crap HD coverage of the NBA draft... As a friend of mine said, this Wimbledon 16:9 SD coverage on the deuce is a reminder of who SD was supposed to be before the cable co's, satellite providers and broadcasters started compressing the heck out of it...

After finally being able to catch up some highlights this evening, I'll tell you that I'd take this 480 widescreen any day over that crap HD coverage of the NBA draft... As a friend of mine said, this Wimbledon 16:9 SD coverage on the deuce is a reminder of who SD was supposed to be before the cable co's, satellite providers and broadcasters started compressing the heck out of it...

Yeah, this stuff could've fooled me for HD. If NBC can do only this for the next couple of years I won't complain so loudly. Just cut the 4:3 crap.

I consider myself extremely discriminating when it comes to the quality of an HD feed having been involved in the TV business many years ago. I, like many others, decry the quality of what TNTHD claims is HD on many of their shows. Having said that, I was hard pressed to tell that last night's coverage on ESPN2 HD was in 16:9 SD rather than HD. It was so much better than the Fox SD widescreen telecasts of major league broadcasts which often look like an analog SD broadcast picked up using rabbit ears. I commend ESPN for the quality of their coverage and agree that NBC, many years ago the leader in broadcast quality, should be roundly criticized for foisting a 4:3 SD signal upon us here in the US if that's in fact what they intend to do.

I consider myself extremely discriminating when it comes to the quality of an HD feed having been involved in the TV business many years ago. I, like many others, decry the quality of what TNTHD claims is HD on many of their shows. Having said that, I was hard pressed to tell that last night's coverage on ESPN2 HD was in 16:9 SD rather than HD. It was so much better than the Fox SD widescreen telecasts of major league broadcasts which often look like an analog SD broadcast picked up using rabbit ears. I commend ESPN for the quality of their coverage and agree that NBC, many years ago the leader in broadcast quality, should be roundly criticized for foisting a 4:3 SD signal upon us here in the US if that's in fact what they intend to do.

This year FOX baseball is better than even ESPN tennis. Last year FOX was bad because they were taking HD feed and converting it to composite SD. Now they send all the games in digital component.

While Wimbledon on ESPN looks good, it is not close to HD. I suggest recording ome of it and waiting until August for US Open. Then compare it. US Open will blow away SD widescreen. Not to mention that 60Hz video pretty much has no blurriness unlike 50Hz. It is best visible when the ball flies.

HDnet is the gold standard in HD period. CBS Sports HD is the gold standard for Grand Slam tennis, unless being muddled by cable/satellite compression. ESPN2HD Wimbledon - in 16:9 SD is a step in the right direction but not quite there, strictly speaking.

Yeah, this stuff could've fooled me for HD. If NBC can do only this for the next couple of years I won't complain so loudly. Just cut the 4:3 crap.

If NBC will really not do widescreen from Wimbledon I WILL NOT WATCH. NBC EXECS, DO YOU HEAR ME? I WILL NOT WATCH ANYTHING ON YOUR NETWORK UNTIL YOU START TREATING YOUR VIEWERS WITH RESPECT.

HDnet is the gold standard in HD period. CBS Sports HD is the gold standard for Grand Slam tennis, unless being muddled by cable/satellite compression. ESPN2HD Wimbledon - in 16:9 SD is a step in the right direction but not quite there, strictly speaking.

While I agree about HDNET and CBS, there is one channel that has the best HD picture in the world. It is YES Network. PQ on that channel is perfect no matter if the game is at home or away. I would call them Platinum standard followed by HDNET and CBS.

While I agree about HDNET and CBS, there is one channel that has the best HD picture in the world. It is YES Network. PQ on that channel is perfect no matter if the game is at home or away. I would call them Platinum standard followed by HDNET and CBS.

I guess it may be a matter of opinion, but I was out in NJ for the subway series back in April. I was watching via Patroit Media (lil cable co with great HD service) and my buddy got both YES HD and SNY HD. I believe he had a 46" rear projection sony LCD and I thought the picture fron SNY HD was much more vibrant. just a better pic for the Friday night game of that series.

I have to say I was jealous being that I'm Comcast and I just got my RSN in HD back in April, while he gets full time channels for YES and SNY, plus coverage from MSG and FSN NY HD on Special Events channels. AND the HDNets!!!

I think he pays less too.

Shakes fist at Comcast!!!

I guess it may be a matter of opinion, but I was out in NJ for the subway series back in April. I was watching via Patroit Media (lil cable co with great HD service) and my buddy got both YES HD and SNY HD. I believe he had a 46" rear projection sony LCD and I thought the picture fron SNY HD was much more vibrant. just a better pic for the Friday night game of that series.

I have to say I was jealous being that I'm Comcast and I just got my RSN in HD back in April, while he gets full time channels for YES and SNY, plus coverage from MSG and FSN NY HD on Special Events channels. AND the HDNets!!!

I think he pays less too.

Shakes fist at Comcast!!!
Well you can feel better knowing that Patriot Media is in the process of being bought out by Comcast.

I guess it may be a matter of opinion, but I was out in NJ for the subway series back in April. I was watching via Patroit Media (lil cable co with great HD service) and my buddy got both YES HD and SNY HD. I believe he had a 46" rear projection sony LCD and I thought the picture fron SNY HD was much more vibrant. just a better pic for the Friday night game of that series.

I have to say I was jealous being that I'm Comcast and I just got my RSN in HD back in April, while he gets full time channels for YES and SNY, plus coverage from MSG and FSN NY HD on Special Events channels. AND the HDNets!!!

I think he pays less too.

Shakes fist at Comcast!!!

There is one problem with SNY. They only do Mets home games in HD. YES does all the games. I agree that SNY is very good but YES is the standard. There was a thread here and most people that saw YES agree with me, and that includes Yankee haters.

There is one problem with SNY. They only do Mets home games in HD. YES does all the games. I agree that SNY is very good but YES is the standard. There was a thread here and most people that saw YES agree with me, and that includes Yankee haters.
YES looks outstanding even on DirecTV's compressed feed. Always liked watching Yankee games until I canceled MLBEI this year.

Okay, okay. I accept the blame for some of this .... we seem to be getting more and more off topic in the last 4 or 5 posts.

I think Discovery is the standard for HD followed by HDnet.

Okay, okay. I accept the blame for some of this .... we seem to be getting more and more off topic in the last 4 or 5 posts.
Sorry, it's just that really good looking HD is getting harder to find.

So what's the bottom line here, is NBC for sure going to give us some crappy 4x3 SD stuff tomorrow?

Links to TV schedules,

http://www.tsn.ca/tennis/on_tsn/?show=TENNIS
TSN : TENNIS - Canada's Sports Leader

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/tennis/wimb/2006-06-25-tv-schedule_x.htm
USATODAY.com - Wimbledon TV and Internet schedule

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/6102132.stm
BBC SPORT | Tennis | Tennis on the BBC

Well you can feel better knowing that Patriot Media is in the process of being bought out by Comcast.

There goes HDNet - again.

NBC will start their programming in a few hours...

SATURDAY JUNE 30
12 p.m.- 3 p.m.
WIMBLEDON: Men and Women Round 3 (live and tape)
Commentators: Ted Robinson, John McEnroe, Mary Carillo, Bud Collins, Jimmy Roberts
Site: All England Lawn Tennis Club, Wimbledon, England
3 p.m.-6 p.m.

NBC will start their programming in a few hours...


At 12:01 pm I will check. No 16:9? click!

At 12:01 pm I will check. No 16:9? click!

I'll be the exact same way and have my email typed to nbc sports.com noting them that I will be watching ESPN's coverage, but not NBCs if they choose to use a 4x3 center cut shot...

45 mins and counting

If NBC does indeed present it in 4:3, they will have locked in last place with the major four networks.

What possible excuse could they come up with for not showing 16:9 SD?

We'll know in 40 minutes.

It's 12:06 and I see WS but the SD isn't up to ESPN2.
They are replaying the Venus Williams match and it looks bad.

The pre show is letterboxed, and the graphics are 16x9

Holy ****, we have 16x9 coverage from NBC for Wimbledom

In studio is 16x9 and graphics are 4x3 protected

I think we need the thread title edited

The pre show is letterboxed, and the graphics are 16x9

Holy ****, we have 16x9 coverage from NBC for Wimbledom

In studio is 16x9 and graphics are 4x3 protected

I think we need the thread title edited

Nice surprise from NBC. I guess there is still hope for them.

The PQ is awful.


Also, getting a few video breakups on ch82.
With both my HTL-HD and HR10.

I think I'll go mow the lawn. :)

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6672/0630h09m12tennisnv1.th.jpg (http://img408.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0630h09m12tennisnv1.jpg)

I just turned on NBC and was pleasantly surprised to see 16:9, however, the PQ is very poor, at least via Comcast here. Is everyone else getting crappy PQ? I realize it's not HD, but ESPN's PQ was much better than this.

It looks much better than the French opens 4:3. It's watchable and no breakups here ota.

The PQ is awful.


Also, getting a few video breakups on ch82.
With both my HTL-HD and HR10.

I think I'll go mow the lawn. :)

I agree the PQ is not as crisp as the ESPN2 coverage.

42" 720p DLP and 42" 1080P LCD, conneted HDMI to Moto STBs via Comcast, Lansing, MI. WILX-HD with one digital sub (weather source channel)

It looks much better than the French opens 4:3. It's watchable and no breakups here ota.

I completely skipped the french because it was 4x3 on NBC

I just turned on NBC and was pleasantly surprised to see 16:9, however, the PQ is very poor, at least via Comcast here. Is everyone else getting crappy PQ? I realize it's not HD, but ESPN's PQ was much better than this.

Ditto, via Comcast here in Ft. Lauderdale, FL. TSN-HD is showing the NBC feed in widescreen, same lousy PQ.

Ditto, via Comcast here in Ft. Lauderdale, FL. TSN-HD is showing the NBC feed in widescreen, same lousy PQ.
Yes, neither feed today looks as good as during the week.

Well, I see Wimbledon 2007 in WS on NBC now too. I have U-verse and the PQ is bad...

I have an OTA antenna, and the PQ is bad as well, and Comcast HD feed loks the same - bad...

Well, at least it is in WS, thanks god!

PS - I am in Houston, TX

KenH please change the title of the thread.

Guys, this is a victory for us! Lobbying works! Sure PQ isn't as crisp as we'd like, but they listened to us.

KenH please change the title of the thread.
Fixed.

Title is fixed, but the PQ is still awful. :(

I guess it's a good thing that the live matches have been rained out.

Looks decent here OTA. Much better than 4:3 on an analog channel.

This is very pixelated and lousy picture quality coming form OTA here in Miami FL.. I've never seen it this bad before...

Title is fixed, but the PQ is still awful. :(

I guess it's a good thing that the live matches have been rained out.

16:9 SD is just that. Don't get your expectations up too much. The difference between ESPN2 and NBC's flavor of 16:9 SD could probably be explained by format conversion gear. Perhaps NBC runs this through a few more hoops than ESPN does. They may have also decided at the last minute to do this, and the best gear cannot be readily sourced. I'm speculating here.

What I'm seeing so far is very saturated greens (or in tech lingo "chroma"). 1080i or 720p can handle this level of saturation, but 480p cannot. If they turn it down a notch, it may look a bit better. Compare this to ESPN2 if you can.

Could it be that ESPN2 uses 720p and NBC is using 1080i?

1080i or 720p can handle this level of saturation, but 480p cannot. If they turn it down a notch, it may look a bit better. Compare this to ESPN2 if you can.525 & 625 flavors of 601 SD have for all practical purposes the same chroma saturation range (ie chromaticity coordinates) as HD. The Y channel RGB' weighting is different between HD and SD, so some of the chroma channel in the SD needs to be included in the HD Y channel for proper gray scale. NTSC analog transmission is more limited as carrier cutoff is at 120%, which does not accommodate the 133% composite video chroma peaks on 100% saturation of some colors like yellow.

Assuming that SD is being used for the backhaul the standards involved are the BBC's 625 (576/25i), 525 (483/30i) for the backhaul, 720/60P upconvert for ESPN and 1080/30i upconvet for NBC. 480P isn't used.

What I'm seeing so far is very saturated greens (or in tech lingo "chroma"). 1080i or 720p can handle this level of saturation, but 480p cannot. If they turn it down a notch, it may look a bit better. Compare this to ESPN2 if you can.

If a 480i composite footprint is being introduced in the path - then you may be right about the saturation. It is very unlikely the pictures will have been anywhere near a 480p system - they hardly exist...

However looking at the screengrabs posted - there don't seem to be any composite artefacts and the chroma bandwith looks much higher.

The saturation performance of 576/50i (the likely source NBC are taking from the BBC, who are downconverting their HD court feeds from Centre Court and Court Number One for SD broadcasters, and indeed BBC One and Two domestic services), 480/60i, 1080/60i, 720/60p and the original 1080/50i source, are all likely to be pretty much identical - as they will all be digital component operations. It is possible there is a 601 vs 709 issue - but this shouldn't have too much impact.

Certainly flipping between 1080/50i 16:9 on BBC HD and the same match in 576/50i 16:9 on BBC One or Two over here in the UK there is little noticable difference in the saturation of the grass - and nothing to suggest the SD has poorer chroma performance than the HD.

I would imagine that the US pictures have been through the following path :

1080/50i 16:9 source (Centre Court or Court Number One) downconverted to 576/50i 16:9, or 576/50i 16:9 source (other courts) (All digital component)

NBC Wimbledon operation 576/50i (probably) (All digital component)

Upconvert to 1080/60i 16:9 - hopefully not via 480/60i. (Digital component)

Whether the upconversion is taking place in London and the backhaul 1080/60i, or the backhaul 576/50i with a conversion in the US I don't know. The latter would be cheaper I guess - and these days I'd imagine routing 50Hz signals around the US was a bit easier than it used to be?

The grass is looking greener than it usually does by the end of the first week - but then Britain has been very wet these past few days (large chunks of the North of England have suffered from pretty severe flooding, with a month's worth of rain falling in 24 hours in some places) Some years the grass is almost brown - but not this year...

On the ESPN side, the conversion is done in the US and straight from the 576i signal to 720p. The SD cut is made from that. It's possible that NBC is converting everything in London and sending out 480i and the upconversion to 1080i is happening in the US. If that is true, then since ESPN is only converting and resampling the signal once and from a higher resolution source, maybe that explains the difference in PQ?

Also- ESPN is a very new all digital HD plant in Bristol. Their facilities rival any facility built anywhere in the world. Who knows what is happening at NBC in NY.

Looked horrid today on NBC (OTA).

Converting after the backhaul can have advantages over converting before as a backhaul MPEG2 encoder can better use image redundancies and motion compensation. However at sufficient bitrates this should have minimal effect. It would be interesting to know the details of the backhaul.

The S&W Alchemist Platinum can directly convert 576/25i to 720/60p in one step and is considered by many to be the gold standard for conversions.

The S&W Alchemist Platinum can directly convert 576/25i to 720/60p in one step and is considered by many to be the gold standard for conversions.

But taking 576/25i to 1080/60i gives us the shotty NBC presentation?

I'm happy it was 16x9 and didn't have to send the email I had typed, but ESPN's presentation is much better than NBC's

But taking 576/25i to 1080/60i gives us the shotty NBC presentation?


It shouldn't if that's all you're doing, but I think it's possible that they're taking 576 converting it to 480 for transmission to the US, then converting it to 1080- who knows what else in between.

ESPN had an all digital transmission of 576 all the way to the US where they converted the signal one time to 720p and from there it was distributed and a 4x3 cut was made.

I didn't see the broadcast yesterday but I'll check today's out. I do have to commend NBC for at least getting this far though. After everything I heard, I wasn't expecting 16x9.... maybe they're listening.... which is a good thing.

BTW, if you're wondering what HD looks like from London, there's a LIVE Concert for Diana on MHD right now. Duran Duran is currently playing.

16:9 on WBAL in Baltimore. Sports Report is HD.

It shouldn't if that's all you're doing, but I think it's possible that they're taking 576 converting it to 480 for transmission to the US, then converting it to 1080- who knows what else in between.

ESPN had an all digital transmission of 576 all the way to the US where they converted the signal one time to 720p and from there it was distributed and a 4x3 cut was made.Obviously the backhauls can vary in quality with bitrate and the number of hops. A high quality backhaul is essential for 16:9 SD with downstream upconversion.

I'm looking at the replay on Sunday morning on NBC. The images are a bit on the soft side, but still much better than many of the 4:3 SD NFL games last year on CBS. It also looks better than the WS Fox MLB that used composite backhauls. IMO it's much more enjoyable than a 4:3 presentation. There are occasional stutters possibly from the standards conversion. I didn't see the ESPN presentation so I can't compare.

I didn't see the ESPN presentation so I can't compare.

Earlier in the thread was a screen shot from espn linky (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10875915&&#post10875915)

There is much more detail enhancement in the ESPN link. It borders on looking French. I wonder if some enhancement is being added at ESPN, or if it's being filtered down on the NBC feed.

WNBC-DT and SD Verizon FIOS NJ

The 16:9 feed on WNBC-DT is not even half as bad as the SD feed.

The SD feed has real bad edge enhancement and oscillation patterning on graphics like the first days of the Olympics had.

WNBC-SD
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/9414/snapshot200707010000bd0.th.jpg (http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot200707010000bd0.jpg)

WNBC-DT
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/3821/snapshot20070701ik5.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot20070701ik5.jpg)

Does anyone else have the heavy edge enhancement on the SD feed?

BTW, if you're wondering what HD looks like from London, there's a LIVE Concert for Diana on MHD right now. Duran Duran is currently playing.
Thanks. Based on your tip I just now decided to check it out on Cox OKC, and it looks great.

Does anyone else have the heavy edge enhancement on the SD feed?I don't have great OTA SD, but it does look more enhanced than the HD. The ESPN cap looks more enhanced than either WNBC cap. What I'm noticing now that I look closer is alot of lag on both HD and SD. I know this is a conversion, but this is more than normal.

I notice on the close up shots you can see the trail of the crowd when the camera pans.

Watching the French Grand Prix on FOX there is little to no lag on the video.

BTW, if you're wondering what HD looks like from London, there's a LIVE Concert for Diana on MHD right now. Duran Duran is currently playing.

NBC appears to have HD backhaul from Wembley, but not from the All England Club!

WNBC-DT and SD Verizon FIOS NJ

The 16:9 feed on WNBC-DT is not even half as bad as the SD feed.

The SD feed has real bad edge enhancement and oscillation patterning on graphics like the first days of the Olympics had.

WNBC-SD
[Screen shot snipped]

WNBC-DT
[Screen shot snipped]

Does anyone else have the heavy edge enhancement on the SD feed?
I suggest that much of the difference is probably attributable to the inherent superiority of PQ of any digitally transmitted image. In the interest of science I have done a lot of A/B comparisons of the PQ of SD shows that were simulcast on both an analog and a digital station. Even such 4:3 SD shows have always had PQ via the digital channel that was markedly superior to that seen on the analog channel.

http://www.nbc.com/Schedule/

NBC's website now lists week #2's late night Wimbledon highlight shows as HD.

There is much more detail enhancement in the ESPN link. It borders on looking French. I wonder if some enhancement is being added at ESPN, or if it's being filtered down on the NBC feed.

The BBC HD feed here has been more "edgy" than perhaps it should be...

WNBC-DT and SD Verizon FIOS NJ

The 16:9 feed on WNBC-DT is not even half as bad as the SD feed.

The SD feed has real bad edge enhancement and oscillation patterning on graphics like the first days of the Olympics had.

WNBC-SD
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/9414/snapshot200707010000bd0.th.jpg (http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot200707010000bd0.jpg)

WNBC-DT
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/3821/snapshot20070701ik5.th.jpg (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot20070701ik5.jpg)

Does anyone else have the heavy edge enhancement on the SD feed?

The WNBC-SD screengrab is also covered in horrible composite artefacts - is that an off-air grab of an analogue source (which would be composite) or a digital SD broadcast?

It certainly looks horrible edge enhanced - and although the BBC HD feed has more edge than I'd like - it isn't in the same league as that, which is truly nasty.

During the Jankovic/Safarova match, a ballboy was running next to the tarps to fetch a ball and he slid and fell on his backside. In the wide-screen format, we were able to see that happen and see Jankovic react to it. In SD, you'd probably see Jankovic look to see the side and not know what she was looking at until the announcers said something or they replayed it from another angle.

Lost the picture to a black screen beep then a shot of all the covered courts during the Nadal reply and then to commercial.

Not sure if its a local issue or NBC, but McEnroe was mid-sentence after an Official review.

Maybe its teh Vicodin, but the NBC picture looks a bit better today.

Same outage here in Savannah, GA...Most likely a back haul issue as the NBC bug stayed on the screen the whole time. On return from the commercial break they apologized for their "transmission" problems.

I also thought the pq looked a little better today. I'm not seeing the composite artifacts like I was yesterday.

An interesting day to compare the 16:9 SD PQ between the NBC and ESPN2, using the Serena Williams/Hantuchova match which was on both -- live and recorded.

Viewed at close range, NBC's hue is duller and ESPN2's picture slightly crisper. From 10 feet away, ESPN2's picture still looks more vibrant and the green is more pleasing to look at.

Does anyone know who was responsible (ESPN, NBC, BBC) for the stupid DVE box of the Williams dad in the lower left corner during the Hantuchova/Williams match covering up the actual play? Did this happen on the original broadcast or just the ESPN2 replay I watched late last night? Absolutely inexcusable to cover up actual play to show a spectator reaction...

You can make a sure bet it's not the BBC. They will never do such a thing in any sport. I don't remember seeing it on ESPN2 yesterday afternoon. Are you sure it's DURING play, or just between points, or during one of Serena's medical time-outs?

I saw it too. They had the box during play when ESPN2 was showing the original broadcast of the match. Inexcusable. It was bad enough that they cut to a shot of him after every point. The last thing I want to see is Richard Williams' reaction while play is going on, and especially when it covers up part of the tennis action.

It was annoying enough to see him in a P-in-P box, probably 10x more so when you're sitting next to him in the audience. Also bad if you're sitting in the NBC commentary booth because he kept walking and jumping on the rooftop of it. Richard kept fiddling with what appears to be a Sony HD handicam. At least he got a decent HD picture.

Good to see live tennis again, but damn are they behind. Its gonna be a lot of catch up over the next few days.

What about people playing in singles and doubles?

Days of two and three matches possibly?

it was just wrong to show Richard Williams during play, and even so much during breaks in the action. Kudos for Serena for gutting it out, although why Daniella couldn't put her away is perplexing.

They are really behind in matches, why didn't they play on Sunday, it was sunny.

At least we have good looking tennis on TV :o

So what happens if they resume play tonight?
Will coverage shift to ESPN?

ESPN has the afternoon cable rights, theoretically they can put them anywhere they want, except for ABC. There is no lights at the All England Club, at this time of the year they can play til about 9:00 pm local, which is 4:00 pm ET.

I'm more worried about what this does to the whole schedule. In 2001, the Men's final was played on Monday. NBC put the match on MSNBC, so as not to pre-empt its very profitable "Today Show". They can't put it on CNBC either. MSNBC does not have 16:9 capability.

If they did play on Monday could they show the match on MSNBC and UHD?

If they did play on Monday could they show the match on MSNBC and UHD?

Here's where it gets interesting....... Wimbledon is not "officially" an HD production on NBC. Would they put a 16:9 SD program on UHD?

Here's where it gets interesting....... Wimbledon is not "officially" an HD production on NBC. Would they put a 16:9 SD program on UHD?

That would be very interesting. i hope they would put it on NBC and screw the Today show or some how integrate them together.

If its a monday final, do it at 10am et which is 3pm in London and they can have it over by 9pm, plus that lets people work a half day that have finals tickets.

Did anyone else notice the "black screen" ESPN2HD during the 10 AM- 1 PM Wimbledon broadcast? Our local Comcast CSR stated that NBC had required this and they were told of this a couple of hours before it happened, and could not change the guide. Curious!!!

HZ

Did anyone else notice the "black screen" ESPN2HD during the 10 AM- 1 PM Wimbledon broadcast? Our local Comcast CSR stated that NBC had required this and they were told of this a couple of hours before it happened, and could not change the guide. Curious!!!

HZ

I guess the NBC guys don't trust ESPN2? CBS can do the same to UHD during the US Open, ya know?

Guess what, ESPN2 is replaying that damn match again !!! It's the new "rain delay special". When does the Richard Williams P in P occur? It's probably "burnt" onto the recording too.

When does the Richard Williams P in P occur? It's probably "burnt" onto the recording too.

IIRC, it's near the end of the match. They start showing him jumping up and down after just about every point not long after Hantuchova hits the drop shot sometime around the fourth game of the third set, I think. Then, they just start showing him full-time in the box when Serena is about to close out the match.

IIRC, it's near the end of the match. They start showing him jumping up and down after just about every point not long after Hantuchova hits the drop shot sometime around the fourth game of the third set, I think. Then, they just start showing him full-time in the box when Serena is about to close out the match.

I just saw the first one, it was 2-2 in the third set, Serena leading 40-15 and serving. It was *between points* and lasted 15 seconds. At least they didn't put Richard on full screen for those 15 seconds. It was NOT during play, IMO.

They just showed it when Hantuchova was hitting a ball and totally blocking her and her swing.

edit: just happened again at 30-30 and again totally blocking Hantuchova.

They just showed it when Hantuchova was hitting a ball and totally blocking her and her swing.

Yep, I saw that. And again just now.

Having seen how it was done. I agree with you. They really shouldn't do that. Tennis telecasts are going downhill.

Here's an aside (it's got nothing to do with HD but related to the tournament) ....

That area where Richard was sitting (or standing or jumping around) appears to be two rows of about 10-15 seats total. It's usually reserved for family and friends of the players on court. During that match, the Williamses were in front, and the Hantuchova's were in the back, right? The Hantuchova's (not specifically identified by ESPN2, or NBC for that matter) were displaying tremendous restaint. Can you imagine if the McEnroes were sitting there? "Sit down, you &#^@ ???"

Flash: They'll be playing the Men's semi-finals on Saturday not Friday.

Does anyone know who was responsible (ESPN, NBC, BBC) for the stupid DVE box of the Williams dad in the lower left corner during the Hantuchova/Williams match covering up the actual play? Did this happen on the original broadcast or just the ESPN2 replay I watched late last night? Absolutely inexcusable to cover up actual play to show a spectator reaction...

Won't have been the BBC - it just isn't something they'd do during a match.

The US broadcasters have their own production facilities and their own on-court cameras I believe, so it is something they could do themselves, and it sounds like they did...

Watched bits of ESPN2-HD's evening repeat of the Tuesday's matches and found the PQ was really good. My cable STB converts the 720p to 1080i for my CRT RPTV. Suspect the enhanced contrast from bright sunlight was a factor; most matches I've seen at other times had overcast skies. -- John

So, V.Williams USA (23) vs. M.Sharapova RUS (2) started before NBC's coverage started at 10am?

NBC was going to show the whole match on tape delay?

I'm guessing if the match resumes soon NBC show it live?

The match just resumed and NBC is still on tape delay :confused:

So, V.Williams USA (23) vs. M.Sharapova RUS (2) started before NBC's coverage started at 10am?

NBC was going to show the whole match on tape delay?

I'm guessing if the match resumes soon NBC show it live?

In the past (that includes everything until Tuesday), NBC has been very flexible. They can do some very creative things to juggle seemlessly between live and tape, given time contraints imposed by contracts or mother nature.

On Monday, they went live with S. Williams/Hantuchova which was interrupted by injury and then rain at 12:35 pm eastern. They went off the air in the east at 1:00 pm without a conclusion of course. Then in the west coast (1:00 pm to 4:00 pm eastern). They aired the same match on tape up to 3:35 pm, then used the remaining 25 minutes to air the conclusion, which was completed some 30 minutes prior (live on ESPN2).

Similiarly on ESPN2, they also jiggled their schedule on Monday. When they came back on a 1:00 pm, everything was on rain delay. They replayed the incident-filled second set of Williams/Hantuchova to kill time, then picked up the match live when it resumed at around 2:15 pm (when NBC east was off air and NBC west was still airing the 2nd set on tape). Then after the post-match press conference with Serena, they re-aired the match AGAIN !!

Why are they still on a 10 to 15min delay? The match already resumed but NBC is still showing them warming up. :confused:

I would think it would be more work for the NBC Tech Crew to have to tape delay a match they could be showing live right now.

Why are they still on a 10 to 15min delay? The match already resumed but NBC is still showing them warming up. :confused:

Isn't it amazing that with the internet and whatever else, you can have all the scoring available live. And networks like NBC and ESPN2 still struggling with how to present live or taped material. Sometimes you won't even know, unless you're on the internet. When NBC or ESPN2 put "live" on the top corner, it's live. If you don't see the graphic, you really don't know.

Yeah your right, I guess most people who have not looked at the score on the web do not know NBC is not live right now.

I think the reason NBC is doing what they are doing now is for the west coast.
This way they can show the whole Williams match with out missing any of the live coverage if they would have come back live after the sports update.
Plus with or with out the rain delay the whole match would still be shown on tape delay for the east coast anyway.

NBC is live now with the S. Williams match :)

is this supposed to be HD?

is this supposed to be HD?

16:9 SD... if you've been following this thread during the past week.

looks better than the u.s. open coverage.

was that hd or 16:9 sd?

looks better than the u.s. open coverage.

was that hd or 16:9 sd?

Were you asking about the U.S. open golf? That's HD. U.S. Open tennis on CBS last year? Also HD.

Coming at 1:00 pm in the east, ESPN2 takes over -- probably live. But I think NBC west may air the S. Williams/Henin match from the beginning and in its entirety, which means tape. But they can also air what's left of it live.

He might be talking about the Women's US Open Golf that was on NBC this past weekend. The PQ from the SD cams was real bad.

ESPN2 is Live :)

talking about the men's u.s. open. if that was HD, they should be ashamed.

Were you asking about the U.S. open golf? That's HD. U.S. Open tennis on CBS last year? Also HD.

Coming at 1:00 pm in the east, ESPN2 takes over -- probably live. But I think NBC west may air the S. Williams/Henin match from the beginning and in its entirety, which means tape. But they can also air what's left of it live.

US Open golf on NBC was a mix of HD for wired cameras and 16x9 SD for wireless cameras.

On the ESPN side, the conversion is done in the US and straight from the 576i signal to 720p. The SD cut is made from that. It's possible that NBC is converting everything in London and sending out 480i and the upconversion to 1080i is happening in the US. If that is true, then since ESPN is only converting and resampling the signal once and from a higher resolution source, maybe that explains the difference in PQ?

Also- ESPN is a very new all digital HD plant in Bristol. Their facilities rival any facility built anywhere in the world. Who knows what is happening at NBC in NY.
Sure looks like this is what's going on (NBC 480i at some point). Compared the two Williams sisters matches today (NBC-HD am and ESPN2-HD pm) and was amazed how NBC manages to soften such potentially crisp images. How 1080i NBC with twice the potential spatial resolution--even working from 576i--can screw up the PQ compared to 720p ESPN2-HD is remarkable. -- John

ESPN2 is replaying the V. Williams - Sharapova match again, while there are 18 live matches going on right now.

Lets see some live tennis!!!

I've tuned off ESPN and may flip back in a bit hoping for some live matches. I'd love to see some doubles coverage. The extra players and using the full court makes it such a different game.

Good luck wishing for more doubles coverage. I have seen singles matches replayed from days earlier, not just due to rain delays, but to fill time after a short match, before they will show a current doubles match.

I don't get it, but hopefully with the Tennis Channel coming to DirecTV in August we will have more doubles on TV.

I certainly have been disappointed with NBC's picture, as many other have expressed the same opinion.

Sure looks like this is what's going on (NBC 480i at some point). Compared the two Williams sisters matches today (NBC-HD am and ESPN2-HD pm) and was amazed how NBC manages to soften such potentially crisp images. How 1080i NBC with twice the potential spatial resolution--even working from 576i--can screw up the PQ compared to 720p ESPN2-HD is remarkable. -- John

Assuming both ESPN and NBC are sourcing from the 576/50i 16:9 feeds (either SD native or HD downconverts depending on the court) then either the quality of the backhaul or the conversion system will presumably be the issue. Dodgy backhaul or dodgy conversion (via 480i or not) will be an issue.

NBC extends rights deal for another 4 years. Looks like ESPN is close to doing the same.

I would post article but not sure what the rules are on this forum.

http://tvweek.com/news/2007/07/nbc_extends_wimbledon_play.php

NBC extends rights deal for another 4 years. Looks like ESPN is close to doing the same.

I would post article but not sure what the rules are on this forum.

http://tvweek.com/news/2007/07/nbc_extends_wimbledon_play.php


“We are delighted that our long partnership with NBC Sports is to continue,” said Tim Phillips, chairman of the All England Club. “NBC Sports will have again presented over 37 hours of network coverage from the Championships this year, with all the traditional quality and expertise that we have come to expect from them.”

Traditional quality = SD :rolleyes:

“We are delighted that our long partnership with NBC Sports is to continue,” said Tim Phillips, chairman of the All England Club. “NBC Sports will have again presented over 37 hours of network coverage from the Championships this year, with all the traditional quality and expertise that we have come to expect from them.”

Traditional quality = SD :rolleyes:

And constant replays of the singles matches, no coverage from anything else, at all

And constant replays of the singles matches, no coverage from anything else, at all

The All-England Club must have very low expectations of NBC.

I think mtiffee might be able to answer this one........

At Wimbledon and the French, much too often on the American networks, I see the director switching to a big close up of a player, then suddenly the camera operator pans or zooms away in a rapid fashion. The way I see it, the operator either didn't know his camera is "live" (i.e. the red light on top of the camera is not giving him the proper que) or he's obeying commands from a different director, i.e. a non-American or the host broadcaster? Any thoughts?

NBC is showing the women's semifinals on tape delay and will not let espn show it live.The first semifinal is almost over.What a bunch of A holes.

NBC is showing the women's semifinals on tape delay and will not let espn show it live.The first semifinal is almost over.What a bunch of A holes.

Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong on this ... there's usually a fair bit of negotiations between the OTA and cable rightsholders every night after the Schedule of Play for the next day is posted by the club. This is particularly true for the latter rounds, as each side would like to "protect" certain match-ups to be shown on the time-slot they've allotted. If I recall, NBC usually has the first call. This is the structure that has been in place for years, and 2007 is no different. The time-slot for cable has been expanding in recent years.

I see the director switching to a big close up of a player, then suddenly the camera operator pans or zooms away in a rapid fashion.

Yeah, it happens often on shows like these. With limited room in the courts, we can only put up a certain number of cameras. While we do get a clean feed from various courts that are 'cut' by the host broadcaster, many times the announcers are telling a story about a certain player and the US director will break away from that feed to follow or support the story. Given limited resources, sometimes they must take a camera they don't have control over. In a standard tennis setup, there are two cameras at the end of the net and each camera generally covers one side of the court and follows the player on that side. In tennis, you pretty much always want to have your wide 'game' shot, and a shot of each player at all times. If you have that, you know you're covered for unexpected surprises, and all the additional cameras can freelance around the stadium, isolate coaches, etc.
So usually, it's pretty safe to take one of those player cameras since the host director always wants that shot too. On occasions, we might take that camera just as the camera operator is getting a command from the host director to maybe quickly provide a wide shot background for a graphic, or shoot someone in the stands, or shoot a players shoes, etc.

At the French Open, it's even worse. We tried to stay off the host broadcasters cut as much as possible because they liked to to a lot of "artsy" things like stick peoples faces on still store shots of tennis balls, etc. So there, the directors basically cut their own show using a mix of US cameras and host cameras which increased the chances of that happening. To make matters worse, the US cameras at the French were shared between ESPN and the Tennis Channel so you didn't always have the shots you wanted all the time and had to rely on the French cameras a bit more.

The tallies (big red light) are seen in the viewfinder but are fed from the switcher of whatever show that camera was working for. So if it's a BBC camera, they only see a tally if they're punched up on the BBC switcher. There is another tally light in the viewfinder that is green. Green tallies can have many meanings to the operator. In golf many times two players of interest are hitting on two different holes at the same time so you have to pick which to show live, and which to record. There's usually an ISO (isolation) Director that cuts cameras to tape and the green tally can be used to indicate to the operator that he's being used for that purpose, even though he's not live to air at that time. They can be used to show the operator that he's feeding another source like a jumbotron or another broadcaster. On most shows in the US, they're not used at all. Since there are many visiting broadcasters at Wimbledon, green tallies would be a nightmare to configure.

Regarding the specific example you gave, here's what I think happened. Camera operator zooms into players face. BBC director takes the shot. US director takes the shot. BBC director cuts away, camera guy loses red tally, and snap zooms out to normal framing for isolation during play. US audience enjoys snap zoom. US director says "@#$%!"

Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong on this ... there's usually a fair bit of negotiations between the OTA and cable rightsholders every night after the Schedule of Play for the next day is posted by the club. This is particularly true for the latter rounds, as each side would like to "protect" certain match-ups to be shown on the time-slot they've allotted. If I recall, NBC usually has the first call. This is the structure that has been in place for years, and 2007 is no different. The time-slot for cable has been expanding in recent years.

I believe that is correct in principle.

I believe that is correct in principle.

in the east coast watching Roddick/Gasquet, we've just witnessed a seemless transition from ESPN2 to NBC. As they say, "a contract is a contract".

But does that leave the west coast viewers hanging for 3 hours?

NBC is showing the women's semifinals on tape delay and will not let espn show it live.The first semifinal is almost over.What a bunch of A holes.

I just wish that both ESPN and NBC would show live tennis rather than constant replays. Because of the rain and being so far behind, there was a day (maybe wednesday) that both NBC and ESPN both showed multiple replays of the same matches rather than live doubles and mixed soubles tennis. There were 18 courts with live tennis and just constant replays of day old or earlier coverage was shown.

Frustrating.

NBC is showing the women's semifinals on tape delay and will not let espn show it live.The first semifinal is almost over.What a bunch of A holes.

..... you've probably read my earlier post about networks protecting marquee match-ups for their time slot . In this case, NBC was protecting the Venus Williams semi-final.

So up until 2:35 pm ET, NBC revealed nothing about that particular match (even though it has been completed long ago). ESPN2 this morning also did not mention the match. Actually ESPN2 stayed away from the women's draw all morning long. So now at 2:36 pm, the Robinson/Carillo/McEnroe trio were courtside doing play-by-by for Roddick/Gasquet on Court 1. They showed the crowd on Henman Hill, and said something to the fact that matches at Centre Court had been completed and the crowd spewed over to the hill to watch Court 1 on the big screen.

Then Mary made one big slip of the tongue and revealed the result of the Venus Williams match ! Hey guys, you haven't even showed us the match! Then in the next game, they put up a big graphic showing the tale-of-the-tape for the Women's final tomorrow!

Then Mary made one big slip of the tongue and revealed the result of the Venus Williams match ! Hey guys, you haven't even showed us the match! Then in the next game, they put up a big graphic showing the tale-of-the-tape for the Women's final tomorrow!

I believe that if you watch it again, the score of the Williams-Ivanovic game was revealed in a smallish scoreboard near the bottom of the screen first, then a few minutes later Mary made her comment.

Women's final coming through 16:9 SD on NBC. They actually pushed back the match by 5 minutes so the BBC gets to interview the players at the top of the hour before they enter the court.

The court doesn't appear to be as green as it has been for the fortnight. It's got this brownish look (and I don't mean the torn section), or is it the hue control going amuck at NBC?

ESPN2HD's coverage which, according to people here, is 16x9 SD upconverted was a lot more "hidef" looking than the NBC's coverage of the finals - men's and women's. While I am thankful at least for the 16x9 feed non NBC, it is not even great SD feed upconverted. Switching back between NBc and NBC HD, the only real difference seems to be the aspect ratio.

ESPN2HD's coverage which, according to people here, is 16x9 SD upconverted was a lot more "hidef" looking than the NBC's coverage of the finals - men's and women's. While I am thankful at least for the 16x9 feed non NBC, it is not even great SD feed upconverted. Switching back between NBc and NBC HD, the only real difference seems to be the aspect ratio.

That would lead me to believe that ESPN is taking the 576i straight to 720p, while NBC is going 576i-480i-1080i.

At least the weather improved for the final weekend - and the courts regained their traditional "browny green" hue.

Interesting that as soon as the Men's final finished, the output on BBC HD switched from HD to SD upconverted (on a wide shot - so you saw the resolution disappear on-shot) - to allow the BBC One presentation operation to kick in in SD - and stayed as an upconvert until the BBC One operation (simulcast on BBC HD) threw to the mixed doubles final, when the HD switch was thrown back! This allowed the BBC One/Two SD presentation studio to be used on BBC HD.

That would lead me to believe that ESPN is taking the 576i straight to 720p, while NBC is going 576i-480i-1080i.

Possibly - though equally quality differences in the backhaul and upconverters could play a part.

If ESPN are using the latest upconverters then they may have an edge over NBC if they are using an older model. AIUI the latest upconverter from S&W (Quasar?) performs very well indeed - and given that the source is an HD->SD downconversion, the SD source should be very high quality indeed, and survive well if upconverted well from a high quality backhaul.

(The quality of SD backhaul is equally a potential quality issue - as broadcasters can use anything between 5Mbs and 34Mbs for an SD backhaul... 24Mbs is the EBU recommendation for high quality SD with modern MPEG2 encoders, previously they recommended 34Mbs with the first generation gear)

The biggest irony of the fortnight:

Lightening strikes in our neighbourhood when it was 4:1 in the first set tie-breaker. The house lost power for a couple of minutes, but I lost all the remainder of my recording on the PVR. There is a small consolation as my PVR managed to save the Bjorn Borg/John McEnroe interview on NBC as they discuss this match and their good-'ol days.

At least the weather improved for the final weekend - and the courts regained their traditional "browny green" hue.

Interesting that as soon as the Men's final finished, the output on BBC HD switched from HD to SD upconverted (on a wide shot - so you saw the resolution disappear on-shot) - to allow the BBC One presentation operation to kick in in SD - and stayed as an upconvert until the BBC One operation (simulcast on BBC HD) threw to the mixed doubles final, when the HD switch was thrown back! This allowed the BBC One/Two SD presentation studio to be used on BBC HD.

Did you manage to save any part of the match?

I have been curious about this:

On my DirecTV HD DVR, I can get 30 hours of HD, or 200 hours of SD, or any combo. So how much hard disk space does the ESPN2 broadcast of the SD 16x9 fill? Is it just a SD space filler, or something more.

I have been curious about this:

On my DirecTV HD DVR, I can get 30 hours of HD, or 200 hours of SD, or any combo. So how much hard disk space does the ESPN2 broadcast of the SD 16x9 fill? Is it just a SD space filler, or something more.

The HD feed always takes the same amount whether its SD with pillars or a 16x9 upconvert.

Its all upconverted to 720p and takes the same space.

If you were actually getting a 16x9 SD signal then yes it would've taken up less space. In that case, your HDTV or DVR would've done the 'upconversion' to HD. Since ESPN did the upconversion, the signal you're getting is a true HD signal (using the normal HD bandwidth), even though the signal was created using SD sources.

Its all upconverted to 720p and takes the same space.When VBR is used for the encoding, the amount of disc space can vary somewhat. Pillars take little space to encode, so the file can be smaller on upconverted 4:3. It will still be larger than a SD file. In the case of 16:9 upconverted SD it's likely that there would be little difference compared to true HD.

The biggest irony of the fortnight:

Lightening strikes in our neighbourhood when it was 4:1 in the first set tie-breaker. The house lost power for a couple of minutes, but I lost all the remainder of my recording on the PVR. There is a small consolation as my PVR managed to save the Bjorn Borg/John McEnroe interview on NBC as they discuss this match and their good-'ol days.

Again, the wonders of technology. After 3 days, and with some help, I was able to recover from the hard drive more than 3 hours of "lost" recording of this match -- all the way to the finish.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=66560

Here's hoping for a better picture next year from ESPN2, and especially NBC !
And to mtiffee, good luck at the Open (I mean... bringing us the good PQ).

I caught the final game on NBC, a 4-hour battle. It looked ok, in 16:9. Got a question though. The statistics box in the top-left had NBC rainbow bug on it, does this mean that BBC was providing "clean" feed without any onscreen info, and NBC was adding stats boxes and other stuff? If so, I wish they did it AFTER they upconverted the feed to 1080i/60, not BEFORE. I wish they added the onscreen infoboxes in States and did it in HD, this way the info would have been more legible and crisp, and overall feeling would have been more HD. How hard can it be? Is it possible to have a separate info channel with current game data, then process this info in realtime and building resulting picture in States?

How hard can it be?

LOL, very difficult.

I caught the final game on NBC, a 4-hour battle. It looked ok, in 16:9. Got a question though. The statistics box in the top-left had NBC rainbow bug on it, does this mean that BBC was providing "clean" feed without any onscreen info, and NBC was adding stats boxes and other stuff?

It is quite common for host broadcasters to provide both clean and dirty feeds of events without and with host broadcast graphics respectively. This allows broadcasters to add their own branding if they wish, but also to just take a fully packaged feed if they wish.

If so, I wish they did it AFTER they upconverted the feed to 1080i/60, not BEFORE. I wish they added the onscreen infoboxes in States and did it in HD, this way the info would have been more legible and crisp, and overall feeling would have been more HD. How hard can it be?


If the feed is being packaged in the UK - then adding graphics in the US would be pretty tricky, impossible in some situations if you were hoping to add and remove graphics on live transitions.

It would be easier if the presentation and co-ordination were in the US and just the court feeds being backhauled, but AIUI the whole production is originated at Wimbledon, so unless the graphic scheme is very simple and not tied to transitions, it would be nearly impossible to ghost it downstream.


Is it possible to have a separate info channel with current game data, then process this info in realtime and building resulting picture in States?

Yes - this is how many international sporting events work - but mainly for events where a common pooled feed of a single event is taken by multiple broadcasters (say a football - aka soccer - match) - rather than a multi-event sporting venue where broadcasters compile their own local mixed coverage.

The added cost and complexity to make the graphics look more HD, not to mention the increased chance of a malfunction, would be difficult to justify. It's likely that NBC learned a bit from the experience and I'm happy that went the extra kilometer to give us a 16:9 presentation. Events of this stature will probably be done in full HD in a year or two, so it's really an interim solution.

So far NBC, Fox and ABC have given us the option of WS SD over 4:3. It seems CBS is the holdout.

It's likely that NBC learned a bit from the experience and I'm happy that went the extra kilometer to give us a 16:9 presentation.


I hope they went the extra mile in the UK - we still use miles for distance (and mph for speed) - the kilometre is definitely a continental concept... (Though we now buy petrol in litres we are still able to buy pints of beer...)

I hope they went the extra mile in the UK - we still use miles for distance (and mph for speed) - the kilometre is definitely a continental concept... (Though we now buy petrol in litres we are still able to buy pints of beer...)My ignorance, I thought it was just the US that refused to go completely metric. So, OK, 1 2/3 Km :D

While we're on the subject metric vs imperial........ has anyone questioned the tennis scoring system? 0, 15, 30, 40 and "whatever-the-winning-score-of-a-game-is", and 6 games win the set? How about 5 or 10 games? To people who plays the game this makes perfect sense, but what about the kids who are learning it?

Take your pick.

# Deuce comes from à deux le jeu, meaning "to both is the game" (that is, the two players have equal scores).[13]

# Love is used since 1742, originating from "l'oeuf", the french for "egg", representing the shape of a zero, just as in cricket a score of zero is called a "duck" (short for duck egg).

# The convention of numbering scores "15", "30" and "40" comes from quinze, trente and quarante, which to French ears makes a euphonious sequence, or from the quarters of a clock (15, 30, 45) with 45 simplified to 40.[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis#Scoring

The origins of the fifteen, thirty, forty scores are somewhat unclear - one common explanation is that the scoring system was copied from the game sphairistike, which was played by British officers in India during the 19th century. That game's scoring system was based on the different gun calibres of the British naval ships. When firing a salute, the ships first fired their 15-pound guns on the main deck, followed by the 30-pound guns of the middle deck, and finally by the 40-pound lower gun deck.[1]

The scoring system is also sometimes said to have medieval and French roots. A clock face was used on court, with a quarter move of the hand to indicate a score of fifteen, thirty, and forty-five. When the hand moved to sixty, the game was over. Previously, tennis had a scoring system like table tennis or "ping pong". This explanation seems unlikely since Medieval France predates the advent of mechanical clocks, with sundials being the chronometer of choice at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_score

My ignorance, I thought it was just the US that refused to go completely metric. So, OK, 1 2/3 Km :D

Nah - the UK is still in the mixed economy of mainly metric, but still a bit imperial.

I was brought up in an entirely metric education system - where miles, inches, pounds and gallons were never mentioned - and did an entirely SI-based engineering degree.

Yet I still give my height in feet and inches not metres or centimetres, my weight in stones and pounds (I don't think the 14 pound=1 stone measure is common in the US?) not kilos, talk about my car's fuel economy in miles per (British) gallon not kilometres per litre, and discuss area in acres not hectares and square feet not square metres... I buy a pint, not a litre, of milk and beer.

However Celsius/Centigrade is what I think of for temperature (I guess because that is what UK TV weather forecasts use) - Fahrenheit means nothing to me...