It seems everything currently made only has SD (480) tuner output. :mad: I know I can't record it (natively) but I want to be able to see 720p/1080i broadcasts in real HD, not downrez'd to 480. To add insult to injury, some have HDMI upconverted outs that may take the dumbed down signal and upconvert it to fool you . Sure I could buy a seperate HD tuner to do this but I'm trying to shrink my equipement rack , not expand it. I can't be the only person who desires this and I'll gladly pay extra to get it. I also want a QAM cable tuner as well yet the packaging is usually very unclear on this point. The sales people at BB, CC, etc don't even understand my questions. :) "You want your tuner to be [I]calm?" :rolleyes: Please help me out if you know of any. TIA.

You'll have to wait for DVDr V2.0.

Wow, thanks for the answer but it was not what I was hoping for. Am I really the only person out there that would want this? :confused: Does the current batch not have it to keep the cost down? is it a legal matter? I hope I don't have to wait long.

Many want it, the CE industry is just not offering it in DVD recorders.

Any guess why?

Maybe we'll first see it in a smaller company like Liteon. *fingers crossed*

Many want it, the CE industry is just not offering it in DVD recorders.

...in the United States

Any guess why?

Maybe we'll first see it in a smaller company like Liteon. *fingers crossed*
Nope - I asked Liteon and they said they're getting out of the DVDr business in the US altogether. :eek:

Am I really the only person out there that would want this? : Does the current batch not have it to keep the cost down? is it a legal matter? I hope I don't have to wait long.
Nope.
Yep.
Nope.
~1 yr.

A year! :eek: :mad: :mad: :mad: (not at you, biker19, at Panashitsasony )

And I guess the same machine but with cablecard 2.0 will be in the year 2025,
and record to Blu-ray or HD-DVD in.........NEVER. .....AARRGH!

A year! :eek: :mad: :mad: :mad: (not at you, biker19, at Panashitsasony )

And I guess the same machine but with cablecard 2.0 will be in the year 2025,
and record to Blu-ray or HD-DVD in.........NEVER. .....AARRGH!

If you want to record 1080i or 720p you have DVHS. A computer can do non 5C channels. That's it...for the forseeable future.

I never said I wanted a 2007 DVD recorder to record HD, I just want it to let me view the HD channels its ATSC/QAM tuner can receive in HD. None can.

Nope.
Yep.
Nope.
~1 yr.

OK. Here we are a year later. Are there still no DVD recorders that will allow their ATSC/QAM tuner signal to pass a full HD quality 720/1080 signal out the back, at least while not recording?

I understand why they won't record, I'm not asking for that, but wouldn't a simple A/B switch in the signal path allow the ATSC/QAM tuner's full res signal to escape the box for viewing only as position 'A' and be downres'd to 480i for recording purposes as position 'B'? I'd think that would be a pretty cheap thing to add. It's not like I'm asking for dual tuners or anything, just a switch.

What's that new chip called that will do all this good stuff? "fusion 5" or something-or-other. One of the designers mentions it in some thread.

I think we'll have manned missions to mars before we have what I want.:rolleyes:

OK. Here we are a year later. Are there still no DVD recorders that will allow their ATSC/QAM tuner signal to pass a full HD quality 720/1080 signal out the back, at least while not recording?No, none. Really, nothing has changed much at all in the intervening year. Based on 20/20 hindsight, biker19's ~1yr estimate was giddily optomistic.

All HD-TV's sold since 3/07 have digital HD tuners built-in. Those who bought into the HD-Ready transition market are now the forgotten step-children.

Ceiling projectors never have had tuners and still don't. Right now I need one box for tuning, one box for DVD recording, one box for SACD/DVD-A playback (wow, one box that kills two birds with one stone; amazing), one box for Bluray (well I don't actually have that last one but everyone seems to say I should be buying a game console for that, the PS3, and I'm not even a gamer!), and finally a complex series of component/ toslink/ and I suppose HDMI (soon) switch boxes/receiver. That's 5 remotes (or my kludgey universal) and my stereo rack is bursting at the seams already without a Bluray thingy yet.

Having a functional HD tuner in a nice slim DVD recorder box, even if it didn't play anything but normal DVDs/CDs sure would be nice. See you all next year!


Hmm, anyone want to make a prediction? Which will be on the US market first: my DVD recorder or a Bluray recorder that's at or under $1K?

edit: Oh that LSI chip I need for my unit to work I found myself: Domino 5 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10567488#post10567488)

No, none. Really, nothing has changed much at all in the intervening year. Based on 20/20 hindsight, biker19's ~1yr estimate was giddily optomistic.

All HD-TV's sold since 3/07 have digital HD tuners built-in. Those who bought into the HD-Ready transition market are now the forgotten step-children.

All TV's have to have a digital tuner(aka ATSC tuner) in them. However the tuner is NOT required to display HD resolutions in their native form. To further confuse people, the minimum the law calls for is an ATSC tuner that receives broadcasts over the air via an antenna. A TV with only an ATSC tuner will NOT pick up HD channels over cable. For that you ALSO need a QAM tuner(which the law doesn't apply to at all). Many cheaper non-major brand TVs only have this ATSC tuner, even though they have "HDTV" logos all over the box, remote, TV. Some people will mistakenly think they can plug cable right into them and see digital or HD channels. Not so. Pretty much any new TV 30'' and over or any major brand TV by now includes a QAM tuner as well. This was not the case 2-3 years ago.

You can still go find(good lucK!) a plain 25'' 4:3 CRT set that has a digital tuner and is fully ready for the DTV transition next year. Although I don't think you could even find one bigger than 20'' or 25'' that is 4:3.

one box for SACD/DVD-A playback (wow, one box that kills two birds with one stone; amazing)


Ouch, sorry you bought into those audio content formats - that actually costs you an additional, perhaps unnecessary, box. :o Are those formats still available for sale, if so, are they projected to stay viable for long?

Anyhoo, the all in one box you describe does exist, only its in the form of a small form factor (SFF) Home Theater PC. You may want to head on over to the HTPC forum to see what I'm talking about. If you can give up on DVD recording altogether but still want to record and retain content perhaps an HD Tivo or DVR with and ethernet port or external storage would suffice.

A longtime DVD recorder advocate, I now see this is likely a dead end home theater component and am starting to migrate towards the HTPC (with massive onboard and external storage) with digital tuners and DVR-like recording capabilities from which I can still burn the occasional disc if desired. The HTPC also opens up other on-demand content delivery possibilities such as Netflix, Amazon Unbox, and others.

Just a thought.

Ouch, sorry you bought into those audio content formats - that actually costs you an additional, perhaps unnecessary, box. :o Are those formats still available for sale, if so, are they projected to stay viable for long?

I love my super slim Pioneer DV-578A (which cost me all of $99 when I bought it). It's also my primary DVD/CD player so additionally playing SACD and DVD-audio didn't really cost me anything at all. I need a disc transport, without a doubt, and as for SACD's, the Beatles 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_(The_Beatles_album)) SACD Love (http://www.audaud.com/article_print.php?ArticleID=2500) is well worth the price of admission alone.

Another failed format that gave me years of enjoyment was Laser Disk. I don't regret having bought into that either, not for one second.

Thanks for the suggestions of DVR and HTPC but I already have both. When I said I have a tuner box I actually meant an HD cable PVR box acting as my tuner. My HTPC is a Sony laptop that came bundled with an ATI cablecard HD tuner and integral bluray recording drive. There's no room on the audio rack for it but I do tether it to that system on occasion.

I agree with you that conceptionally an all in one HTPC [in a hush box or at a remote location for noise isolation] is the best way to go but I can tell you that they need a lot of finessing, hand holding, updating, and de-bugging to work smoothly; at east mine did.

Yup, I am in the same boat I really need a HDTV tuner THAT WORKS!
I agree HTPC is trading one kludge for another. Unless you can write your own firmware.

I had known not to be an early adopter in 2003, but my 17 year old Mits rear projection w/ many hours on it croaked.
Enter the 60" Panasonic HDTV monitor w/o an ATSC tuner and the ATSC STB.
I have a 2nd gen Panasonic TUDST51, that will not tune all channels from one antenna location, I will have to have to attempt to make multiple antennas work. I do not want all that crap on my roof. It looks like sh!t.
And that is still a crap shoot.
The DTV reception so far sucks compared to the old analog.
Prefer steady motion 480 vs a beautiful but constantly locking, stuttering 1080 picture.


I love my super slim Pioneer DV-578A (which cost me all of $99 when I bought it). It's also my primary DVD/CD player so additionally playing SACD and DVD-audio didn't really cost me anything at all. I need a disc transport, without a doubt, and as for SACD's,
Another failed format that gave me years of enjoyment was Laser Disk. I don't regret having bought into that either, not for one second.

Thanks for the suggestions of DVR and HTPC but I already have both. When I said I have a tuner box I actually meant an HD cable PVR box acting as my tuner. My HTPC is a Sony laptop that came bundled with an ATI cablecard HD tuner and integral bluray recording drive. There's no room on the audio rack for it but I do tether it to that system on occasion.

I agree with you that conceptionally an all in one HTPC [in a hush box or at a remote location for noise isolation] is the best way to go but I can tell you that they need a lot of finessing, hand holding, updating, and de-bugging to work smoothly; at east mine did.

Are those formats still available for sale,

Several specialist classical-music labels release SACDs regularly: Telarc, BIS, cpo, PentaTone, etc.

Several specialist classical-music labels release SACDs regularly: Telarc, BIS, cpo, PentaTone, etc.

Thanks. So its basically now a niche/specialist format for audiophiles who are specifically into classical music, I guess. Looks like the CE industry in general (other than Sony, obviously) has abandoned support for the format on most CE gear. I guess because you can only take advantage of the format if you have a high end system that can take advantage of the higher mastered dynamic range of an SACD and/or a multi-channel audio setup (i.e., most home theaters). Bottom line though, its another extra box on your rack to play expensive, DRM-laden, optical media.

Looks like the CE industry in general (other than Sony, obviously) has abandoned support for the format on most CE gear.

Not exactly. There are still hundreds of new ones (http://www.google.com/products?q=sacd+player&btnG=Search+Products&show=dd) to be had from many companies other than Sony including Denon, Harman/Kardan, Marantz, Onkyo, Oppo, Philips, Pioneer, and Yamaha.

Bottom line though, its another extra box on your rack to play expensive, DRM-laden, optical media.

Actually it is a singular box that plays everything under the sun hence the name "universal player"; CD, DVD, SACD, DVD-audio, JPEG, WMA, MP3 etc. Mine was also hackable to be region free, have more fine adjustments (for example gamma and black level IRE ), and can output PAL. There's no "extra box" for me. YMMV.

Prefer steady motion 480 vs a beautiful but constantly locking, stuttering 1080 picture.

Maybe try a newer tuner? I think we are in like 5th or 6th generation now and they have gotten better over the years. Maybe borrow one first to see?

Not exactly. There are still hundreds of new ones (http://www.google.com/products?q=sacd+player&btnG=Search+Products&show=dd) to be had from many companies other than Sony including Denon, Harman/Kardan, Marantz, Onkyo, Oppo, Philips, Pioneer, and Yamaha.



Actually it is a singular box that plays everything under the sun hence the name "universal player"; CD, DVD, SACD, DVD-audio, JPEG, WMA, MP3 etc. Mine was also hackable to be region free, have more fine adjustments (for example gamma and black level IRE ), and can output PAL. There's no "extra box" for me. YMMV.

I was just going by your post #14 where you made it seem you were complaining that you needed a separate box for every type of media etc. You only mentioned that your SACD/DVD-A box could do those two formats only (in fact you joked about it actually being able to kill two birds with one stone). I did not know you were using a "hackable" universal box. I guess you were withholding information about your actual setup to "sell" your point. I don't get audio content via optical media anymore so I guess I'm one of the unwashed who don't own an SACD disc and don't know what I'm missing (other than the money flying out of my wallet to subsidize Sony's heavy handed DRM schemes and proprietary formats/devices). My bad. Take care.

I'm not a big fan of optical media either but for about 2 decades of my life they were the only way to get high quality digital audio and video into my life so I built up a collection of CD's and DVD's and just a handful of the SACD's and DVD-audio media toward the end of those 2 decades. Transfering them now to hard drive would take years of effort so I'll need a transport to play all of these instead, but if I were starting fresh, say from right now, I'd consider an optical transport free lifestyle. Good luck with your HTPC journey, I think it makes perfect sense in this day and age. -Ta

Yea - my future seeing abilities were a bit off. The possibility of a DVDr w/ HD output took another blow when Philips said they were getting out of the DVDr business (and more). The possibility still exists but it's not looking good. CES in January will probably foreshadow where the market is heading. It's looking more and more that the answer lies in an HTPC.

Yea - my future seeing abilities were a bit off. The possibility of a DVDr w/ HD output took another blow when Philips said they were getting out of the DVDr business (and more). The possibility still exists but it's not looking good. CES in January will probably foreshadow where the market is heading. It's looking more and more that the answer lies in an HTPC.Frankly, I don't think HTPC will ever be more than a niche/hobbiest market. For a packaged solution, the cost is very high and the complexity is even higher. As far as I see, what is happening with standalone DVDR's is quite predictable given the market direction at large. The majority of viewers subscribe to cable and with the switch to digital cable, they are doing everything in their power to make the service dependent on their proprietary hardware. One reads this effect in post after post here -- current DVDR's simply do not integrate with digital cable. The proposition that the DVR has killed the DVDR appears to be quite true. The only real market for stand-alone DVDRs is for the OTA crowd as a feeless TiVo alternative and unfortuantely the size of that market is too small to generate enough revenue. I frankly don't understand how TiVo has survived.

I see the future of the DVDR reflected in the Panasonic and Toshiba lines. Inexpensive disk-based recorders designed to function as VCR replacements. They will get continually cheaper, like VCR's did, to reach the $100 pricepoint. At that price they are disposable items. Don't look for more than basic functionality and no development. They will be made by anonymous chinese manufacturers with rented names like Polaroid, RCA and now Philips.

I don't get audio content via optical media anymore so I guess I'm one of the unwashed who don't own an SACD disc and don't know what I'm missing (other than the money flying out of my wallet to subsidize Sony's heavy handed DRM schemes and proprietary formats/devices). My bad. Take care.I own 1 SACD and not by choice. I bought a CD copy of Layla (I like old Clapton) through my daughters CD club. To my surprise it was a "hybrid" CD (SACD and "normal" CD). To my disgust, it wouldn't play in my CD player -- damn DRM again. And of course because of that DRM, when I put it in my PC to rip the tracks to my MP3 player, the standard tools wouldn't touch it. I had to resort to some audio hacker tools to rip the .WAV files and re-burn them to a CD-R just so I could play it.

I hope Sony sinks into the Sea of Japan.

Blame the record company for DRM on the CD layer of a hybrid SACD, not the format itself. I just popped a couple of my hybrid SACDs into my Mac to check them. One is an RCA Living Stereo disc from BMG, a reissue of remastered concerto recordings by Jascha Heifetz. The other is a BIS disc, a recent full-price release of music by the Icelandic composer Jón Leifs. In iTunes, they both come up normally, and I can play and import tracks. Outside of iTunes, I can drag and drop audio files onto my Mac's HDD, and I assume I can burn them onto a CD, although I haven't tried it yet. Of course, these are from the CD layer, not the SACD layer. I can play the SACD layer only on my standalone SACD/CD player.

I have a few dozen SACDs, Rock, Jazz, Blues, Folk. They sound great in my Sony 995 CSx 400 disc changer. SACDs are still in production, an audiophile product, to be sure, but they sound much better than CDs, so I think them worthwile, for those interested. My hybrids play in my car stereo, but that's a cheapo Sony CD player.

Blame the record company for DRM on the CD layer of a hybrid SACD, not the format itself. I just popped a couple of my hybrid SACDs into my Mac to check them. One is an RCA Living Stereo disc from BMG, a reissue of remastered concerto recordings by Jascha Heifetz. The other is a BIS disc, a recent full-price release of music by the Icelandic composer Jón Leifs. In iTunes, they both come up normally, and I can play and import tracks. Outside of iTunes, I can drag and drop audio files onto my Mac's HDD, and I assume I can burn them onto a CD, although I haven't tried it yet. Of course, these are from the CD layer, not the SACD layer. I can play the SACD layer only on my standalone SACD/CD player.

I'm sure you are aware, in this particular case, that the record company and the inventor of the format (SACD) and the largest marketer of SACD compatible hardware and the a-holes who champion the invasive and non-consumer friendly DRM schemes are one in the same - i.e., Sony.

Frankly, I don't think HTPC will ever be more than a niche/hobbiest market. For a packaged solution, the cost is very high and the complexity is even higher. As far as I see, what is happening with standalone DVDR's is quite predictable given the market direction at large. The majority of viewers subscribe to cable and with the switch to digital cable, they are doing everything in their power to make the service dependent on their proprietary hardware. One reads this effect in post after post here -- current DVDR's simply do not integrate with digital cable. The proposition that the DVR has killed the DVDR appears to be quite true. The only real market for stand-alone DVDRs is for the OTA crowd as a feeless TiVo alternative and unfortuantely the size of that market is too small to generate enough revenue. I frankly don't understand how TiVo has survived.

I see the future of the DVDR reflected in the Panasonic and Toshiba lines. Inexpensive disk-based recorders designed to function as VCR replacements. They will get continually cheaper, like VCR's did, to reach the $100 pricepoint. At that price they are disposable items. Don't look for more than basic functionality and no development. They will be made by anonymous chinese manufacturers with rented names like Polaroid, RCA and now Philips.

Kelson,

I agree with you that HTPC is definitely niche market stuff. Its what people who frequent these forums now are starting to see as their only alternative to be able to handle all the tasks they want for their multimedia systems. But I have to disagree with you that the packaged solutions cost is high and the implementation is complex. On the contrary, I've found that obtaining a small form factor box (that I wouldn't be embarrassed to have on my AV rack) with blu-ray playback, integrated NTSC/ATSC tuner with media center remote and DVR capabilities, full 1080P content support with HDMI, wireless connectivity, and large capacity storage (>750GB) can be obtained for less than $500. This thing works right out of the box with no tweaking other than activating windows and doing a full channel scan and guide download (sound familiar?), and using Windows Media Center as the interface is about as simple as can be (it passed the spouse test, if you know what I mean). The storage is expandable (unlike most DVD recorders) and practically obviates the need to burn discs though the capability is there with a RAM/-R/+R/-RW/+RW/Dual Layer capable multi-burner. I'm loving it.

On the contrary, I've found that obtaining a small form factor box (that I wouldn't be embarrassed to have on my AV rack) with blu-ray playback, integrated NTSC/ATSC tuner with media center remote and DVR capabilities, full 1080P content support with HDMI, wireless connectivity, and large capacity storage (>750GB) can be obtained for less than $500. This thing works right out of the box with no tweaking other than activating windows and doing a full channel scan and guide download (sound familiar?), and using Windows Media Center as the interface is about as simple as can be (it passed the spouse test, if you know what I mean). The storage is expandable (unlike most DVD recorders) and practically obviates the need to burn discs though the capability is there with a RAM/-R/+R/-RW/+RW/Dual Layer capable multi-burner. I'm loving it.Can you please point me to this with a link? A $500 price point for all that in a package solution would put this on my table very quickly. B-R playback alone is a $300+ proposition. By any chance, if you hook it to your Internet connection can it stream NetFlix on-demand content.
thanks in advance, vic

Can you please point me to this with a link? A $500 price point for all that in a package solution would put this on my table very quickly. B-R playback alone is a $300+ proposition. By any chance, if you hook it to your Internet connection can it stream NetFlix on-demand content.
thanks in advance, vic

I think that Vic is referring to the reconditioned HP computer he purchased on uBid. I just checked the HP site, and the least expensive HTPC I could configure was over $700.

bummer . . .

Why is that a bummer? I call it smart consumerism.

The ubid units come boxed direct from HP factory reconditioned, work great, and have a 90-day warranty that will easily cover any DOA or infant mortality issues. I have purchased several of these units for my own use and for friends and they have all worked great. I think ubid is really an outlet for HP to dump stock of slightly older generation slimlines so that they can promote their incrementally upgraded next gen units (e.g., getting rid of s3200t's for s3300t's) on their front line configurator sites. The newer models are basically incremental mobo upgrades that support newer processors, GPU's, or higher speed RAM that kind of thing but have basically the same HTPC features.

The main drawback to ubid is that you have to vigilant to look for a being offered that fits your feature list (i.e., wait for a unit that has a blu ray drive, tuner, and HDMI graphic card, HDD size you want, wifi, etc..) since you can't specify the features like at an HP retail configuration site and then bid on it. Its not a free-for-all like ebay with sniping and you are not dealing with an unkown third party individual and as a result I have gotten some really good deals vs. retail. Even the shipping charges are reasonable at less than $20. I have no qualms about this approach at all.

Ubid has been recognized on the AVS HTPC forum and in another SFF computer hardware forum as the unofficial widely accepted method of getting you hands on one of these babies at reasonable cost.

PM me if you want further details.

Why is that a bummer? I interpreted RG's post to mean you acquired a one-off refurb from somebody and as such it was not a generally available item. Your explanation clarifies.

I assume any of these sub $1K total packages are both without digital cablecard support let alone an actual cablecard tuner ($300 each last I looked). Sort of a must where I live seeing as Comcast scrambles all my most viewed channels like HBO). The least expensive package I know of is the HP XPS420 ($900? +300 tuner= $1200 w/o monitor), are there any cheaper configurations for people like me these days?

Yes, they lack a cablecard tuner (NTSC/ATSC only) - which is a rarity in HTPC's anyway. In fact, its hard to get an onboard tuner with QAM support even now. Only the Vista version of Windows Media Center supports QAM (unless you want to go with a third party guide/DVR interface like Beyond TV or Sage TV - but you will have to pay extra for that). Since I'm recording HD content OTA (I only have analog cable) it is not a showstopper for me. But I am planning on experimenting more with a usb based Pinnacle tuner that supports QAM so that I can record unencrypted HD at least off of cable. There are also other QAM solutions out their including the HD HomeRun that supports ATSC/QAM dual tuners that connects directly to your router and can send HD across your network to any attached computers. But again, this does not support encrypted cable.

You can always use the analog inputs to record directly from your cable box just like you would do with a standalone DVD recorder - so I don't think its exactly a must have (especially since you were considering a DVD recorder - none that I'm aware of have cable card support so I assume you were going to use the analog inputs on that also). The advantage vs. a DVD recorder is that the ATSC/QAM tuner would output 1080P as you desired.

Frankly, I've read recently that the cable companies are abandoning cablecard support in favor of a new cable industry generated standard that allows two-way communication to support on demand/pay per view/electronic guides (presently not supported by cablecard). In light of this, very few TV manufacturers are supporting it anymore and even Tivo is trying to figure out what they will do when the cable cos finally abandon cable card. So I wouldn't think now would be a good time to invest in a cablecard-based setup.

Finally, one of the major drivers to going this route is precisely to ultimately free myself from the Cable Co completely. I can easily get on demand content (including TV series from both network and premium channels) from Netflix and Amzazon unbox. With this kind of a la cart, customized access to content, cable is becoming less relevant to me.

BTW - wrt the price point - I am specifically talking about HP SFF slimline series here and I've pointed everyone to ubid and could be had for less than $500 + $300 for specialized cablecard based tuner (I say specialized because I know of no one offering a cable card internal tuner as a standard configuration option - no one seems to be talking about them much on the SFF forums either). I am not talking about a full sized PC like the XPS 420 which I could neither fit in my AV rack nor get permission from the Boss to let it sit there on the livingroom floor. Also, I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the XPS 420 lacks a blu-ray player configuration option while the Slimline series does not. So comparisons between the XPS 420 and the Slimline s3300t/3400t series available on ubid is apples to oranges.

HTH.

I assume any of these sub $1K total packages are both without digital cablecard support let alone an actual cablecard tuner ($300 each last I looked). Sort of a must where I live seeing as Comcast scrambles all my most viewed channels like HBO). The least expensive package I know of is the HP XPS420 ($900? +300 tuner= $1200 w/o monitor), are there any cheaper configurations for people like me these days?

I brought up the XPS 420 only because one needs a special kind of computer vista package (OCUR?) which supports digital cable tuners, the $900 XPS420 is the cheapest that I know of. You can't add a $300 cablecard tuner to just any old computer with vista, that is.

Thanks thanks MZ that's good to know. But a cable card tuner within an HTPC seems to be a niche feature within a niche component (HTPCs) so its not surprising I haven't heard much info on it. Like I said, the only related information I have is that only Vista Media Center (vs. XP Media Center Edition) supports QAM tuners out of the box.