I live in a fringe area, and I use OTA HDTV. I am looking for a good DVR and/or DVD player/recorder that has a 5th generation (or better) ATSC tuner built in. I have a lot of trees, hills and some nearby structures, so I think the 5th gen would be a big help.

NTSC tuner would be a plus, but if it is good enough as things stand I only have one area station without HD broadcast, so that does not bother me badly.

My must are:

HDMI output
5th gen tuner
DVD player

The only major retailers in easy driving distance are Walmart, Sears and Radio Shack. No BB or CC.

I'll recommend the Philips DVDR3575H, available at Wal-Mart for $298. I'll have two of these pretty soon.

160GB HDD, DVD recorder/player, HDMI 1080p upconvert, 36-program timer rec., and ATSC tuner (but 1st gen. in a DVD recorder, no higher DVDR gen. available today).

Its only fault so far is a loss of digital channel tuning at random times, which is being worked on now by Philips. I personally only lose dig chans if I surf thru the channels multiple times, and have never lost them upon first turning unit on or when timer recording. I can get my dig. channels back reliably by switching to the analog tuner then back to the dig. tuner. I'm on cable, but people who use OTA antenna say they have no dig. channel loss. Waiting for the promised Philips fix.

Here's a link to the last page/post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=830253) (as of now) of a long thread on the 3575.

160GB HDD, DVD recorder/player, HDMI 1080p upconvert, 36-program timer rec., and ATSC tuner (but 1st gen. in a DVD recorder, no higher DVDR gen. available today).

So, if I need a 5th gen tuner, I have two options:

1. Get an STB with a 5th Gen. Then get a separate DVD/DVR.
2. Build a media center PC and install a card with a 5th gen.

Right?

I'm surprised no recorders have a 5th gen tuner. Maybe I shouldn't be, considering OTA has a stigma attached to it.

So, if I need a 5th gen tuner, I have two options:

1. Get an STB with a 5th Gen. Then get a separate DVD/DVR.
2. Build a media center PC and install a card with a 5th gen.

Right?

I'm surprised no recorders have a 5th gen tuner. Maybe I shouldn't be, considering OTA has a stigma attached to it.
Right. This year's DVD recorders are the first mass-market DVDRs to have digital tuners, even tho STBs and TVs have had digital tuners for a while now. One expert poster who works on TV/recorder chip systems gave a good summary of the difficulty in designing a completely new digital tuner system in a recorder... apparently you can't just take a 5th-gen TV tuner and drop it in a recorder.

It's my understanding the new samsung models have 5th gen atsc
tuners in them (but of course, that's just from what I've read online).

I just finished testing a samsung dtb-h260f (atsc tuner only box)
against a samsung dvd-ar650 (dvd recorder with built-in atsc tuner).
Interestingly, the ar650 did a better job of finding channels, and
holding onto them. The ar650 also has better functionality in its
electronic programming guide (EPG). However, like all the current
dvd recorder/tuners, it doesn't display a true HD picture. It's a really
good picture, just not HD. The 260F tuner outputs HD and has a
signal strength meter (very handy) which is lacking in the ar650.
Strangely, the 260F doesn't seem to have an analog tuner,
but the ar650 does.

I live in a fringe area in the hills outside San Jose, California.
Analog channels are mostly unwatchable, but the HD stuff works
surprisingly well. I'm using a Channel Master 4228 antenna
(a magic antenna, imho), and found accidentally that the best
signal I could get was achieved by aiming the antenna right
at a nearby PG&E (electricity) tower, instead of
toward the TV transmission towers. I can only
assume I'm getting a reflected signal, but it works unbelievably well.

I bought the ar650 at walmart; the tuner I had to get at CC.

Just searched online to verify. The 260F contains an
ATI 240H chip which is "capable of demodulating and decoding
8VSB for ATSC terrestrial broadcasts".

In our side-by-side comparison, the ar650 did a much better
job of getting and keeping marginal signals than the 260F did,
and pulled in 3 more stations.

So, are you getting the full 1080 picture out of the HD tuner on the recorder?

I have the Phillips DVDR3505/37. This is a DVD burner with a built in ATSC tuner (SD only output). I believe the tuner is one of the best. I live in a difficult OTA area and it is one of the best for receiving OTA. It is much better than my Dish 6000 and some what better than my MIT MDR-200 and Dish 622.

It does not have a hard drive but it is available at WalMart for $169. It has a bug that it looses memory settings but there is a fix available from Phillips that fixes this. I installed this last night and it was simple (you burn a CD with the required files and insert the cd into the unit). See the thread devoted to this unit for details.

I actually use this unit to burn DVDs of programs I have saved on my satellite DVR. I use the s-video out of the DVR and it makes great DVDs.

Rick R

So, are you getting the full 1080 picture out of the HD tuner on the recorder?

No, and in the end that's why we decided to (reluctantly) return
the ar650 and keep the 260F tuner. The picture out of the ar650
is superb and difficult to tell from 1080i if they're not side by side,
but the cognitive disconnect of buying all this new equipment and
STILL not having HD is just too much.

Hopefully, something better will be out soon. If not, we
may repurchase the ar650. I already miss the ability to
record DVD's; video tape is primitive in comparison.

No, and in the end that's why we decided to (reluctantly) return
the ar650 and keep the 260F tuner.

I have to agree. 1080 is just so sweet.