So, where are we now? I got an Oppo 970 last year primarily for video upconversion into a plasma TV and it sounds OK on SACD and DVD-A, but I haven't been keeping up with the audio quality of universal players that may now be available.

The new unit will be used for audio only(CDs, SACDs, and DVD-A discs. I thought about just grabbing another Oppo, but I'd really like to get some user reports on audio quality of the newest units that are available now.

I should also say that I will be using the analog outputs, not HDMI, since my receiver doesn't have HDMI.

I guess my price range runs up from the Oppo to around $200.

Thanks much in advance for advice.

I purchased a Harman Kardon DVD47 for use as an audio only transport. I'm more than happy with it. It can be had now for under $200. It plays SACD's, DVD-A's mp3's etc

Like you're planning to do, I use the multichannel outs and depend on its DAC for audio quality rather than the receivers. However, from reviews I've read it the HK had one of the best DAC's in its price range.

Also, reviews of similarly priced players always mentioned one or two annoying shortcomings. (i.e. the Yamaha taking over a minute to load, or the sony's not playing dvd-r's or cd-r's, etc) It also had better bass management features than most others in its price point.

I have noticed though that on some cd-r's it sometimes stops playing. Its also not very forgiving of scratched cd's.

I'm sure their are better options out there but you'll probably have to pay more for it.

I purchased a Harman Kardon DVD47 for use as an audio only transport. I'm more than happy with it. It can be had now for under $200. It plays SACD's, DVD-A's mp3's etc

Like you're planning to do, I use the multichannel outs and depend on its DAC for audio quality rather than the receivers. However, from reviews I've read it the HK had one of the best DAC's in its price range.

Also, reviews of similarly priced players always mentioned one or two annoying shortcomings. (i.e. the Yamaha taking over a minute to load, or the sony's not playing dvd-r's or cd-r's, etc) It also had better bass management features than most others in its price point.

I have noticed though that on some cd-r's it sometimes stops playing. Its also not very forgiving of scratched cd's.

I'm sure their are better options out there but you'll probably have to pay more for it.

Thanks, I'll check that HK out.

Anybody else? Should I consider a used Denon 2200?

Besides audio quality, I'd look at the bass management features that each player offers. What sort of bass management choices does the Oppo offer? The Denon 2200 has a fixed 80Hz xover for speakers that are set to SMALL.

Besides audio quality, I'd look at the bass management features that each player offers. What sort of bass management choices does the Oppo offer? The Denon 2200 has a fixed 80Hz xover for speakers that are set to SMALL.

Thanks,

I'm not too concerned about bass mgmt., since I don't have a sub and will be setting all speakers to large, except for the center channel.

I usually prefer the 2-channel version to the multi-channel version, but I do have a Diana Krall DVD-A that sounds better in multi-channel.

Thanks,

I'm not too concerned about bass mgmt., since I don't have a sub and will be setting all speakers to large, except for the center channel.

I usually prefer the 2-channel version to the multi-channel version, but I do have a Diana Krall DVD-A that sounds better in multi-channel.
You DO realize that DVD players (universal players included) do not properly reroute the LFE channel to the front speakers then they're set up as having NO SUB. The LFE channel is "lost".

You DO realize that DVD players (universal players included) do not properly reroute the LFE channel to the front speakers then they're set up as having NO SUB. The LFE channel is "lost".

All of them?

All of them?
As far as I know, yes. Receivers, of course, do this properly.

The reason DVD players do not reroute LFE is because many people simply have their DVD players connected directly to their televisions, which usually have crappy (at best) speakers that are not at all designed to reproduce low frequencies, especially not LFE.

Why higher-end players and universal players are still designed this way is unclear to me, but I guess old habits die hard.

It's definitely a nuisance for people who want to have a 5.0 channel hirez setup.

The Oppo DV-981HD sounds great for both DVD-A and SACD. Best thing is it can output multi-channel in both HDMI and 5.1 analogue.

Anyone got experience with the Onkyo DVSP502?

As far as I know, yes. Receivers, of course, do this properly.

The reason DVD players do not reroute LFE is because many people simply have their DVD players connected directly to their televisions, which usually have crappy (at best) speakers that are not at all designed to reproduce low frequencies, especially not LFE.

Why higher-end players and universal players are still designed this way is unclear to me, but I guess old habits die hard.

It's definitely a nuisance for people who want to have a 5.0 channel hirez setup.

Siva, do most DVD-As and SACDs have the .1 LFE channel on the multi-channel track? I can't remember if my Diana Krall DVD-A has it. I do know some SACDs have just 3 channels, as in Front L, Center, and Front R.

Also, I tend to listen to the stereo track if the original recording was stereo, as it usally is in classical and jazz albums.

Siva, do most DVD-As and SACDs have the .1 LFE channel on the multi-channel track?Varies a lot. I cannot speak about pop, jazz, etc., but the classical SACDs are about 50:50 and DVD-As more like 90:10.

I do know some SACDs have just 3 channels, as in Front L, Center, and Front R. Very few. AFAIK, only the RCA Living Stereo and Mercury Living Presence reissues are 3 channel.

Also, I tend to listen to the stereo track if the original recording was stereo, as it usally is in classical and jazz albums.Usually?? Only if you concentrate on reissues and not on modern recordings.

Varies a lot. I cannot speak about pop, jazz, etc., but the classical SACDs are about 50:50 and DVD-As more like 90:10.

Very few. AFAIK, only the RCA Living Stereo and Mercury Living Presence reissues are 3 channel.

Usually?? Only if you concentrate on reissues and not on modern recordings.

Kal, thanks so much for taking the time to help.

So, let me go at it this way: if there is a 2-channel track on a DVD-A or SACD, is that track full frequency range, thus requiring no sub?

Thanks again...

I am very happy with my Denon 2910, especially the BB 1791 DACs.

It might not exactly fit the entry level category, but you can get a Denon authorized B-Stock from eCost for less than $300.

Kal, thanks so much for taking the time to help.

So, let me go at it this way: if there is a 2-channel track on a DVD-A or SACD, is that track full frequency range, thus requiring no sub?Yes. If it did, it would be a 2.1 track, wouldn't it? :D

Siva, do most DVD-As and SACDs have the .1 LFE channel on the multi-channel track?
I'll defer to Kal, who says it varies. Honestly, since my speakers are set to SMALL, I have no idea what fraction might or might not have an LFE track. I don't think my player's display distinguishes between 5.0 and 5.1 source material (it's "off" most of the time, anyway). I would imagine that most new multichannel recordings, that have been made since the advent of the multichannel, hirez formats, DO have an LFE track, although that's purely speculation on my part.

I'll defer to Kal, who says it varies. Honestly, since my speakers are set to SMALL, I have no idea what fraction might or might not have an LFE track. I don't think my player's display distinguishes between 5.0 and 5.1 source material (it's "off" most of the time, anyway). I would imagine that most new multichannel recordings, that have been made since the advent of the multichannel, hirez formats, DO have an LFE track, although that's purely speculation on my part.Less common on classical SACD than one would think. Aside from Telarc, which duplicates low bass on the LFE and main channels, many of others simply have full-range 5.0. That works fine for me since there are no real LFEs in the music as even organ pedal notes are still part of the full-range instrument. Since my main system is, apart from the the disc spinners, all analog and such recordings do not demand bass management or a sub. :D

Of course, Kal, we don't all have the same speakers as you do. ;) I find my sub quite useful for classical MCH hi-res audio (and even 2 channel audio). But I set all my speakers to SMALL, sub ON--that way, I don't worry if the original is 2.0, 4.0, 3.0, 5.0, 5.1 (all of these are in my MCH collection).

Of course, Kal, we don't all have the same speakers as you do. ;) I find my sub quite useful for classical MCH hi-res audio (and even 2 channel audio). But I set all my speakers to SMALL, sub ON--that way, I don't worry if the original is 2.0, 4.0, 3.0, 5.0, 5.1 (all of these are in my MCH collection).Exactly. That's why there's no need for 5.1 music sources since 5.0 can be handled transparently by big systems without bass management and by smaller ones with bass management. Of course, that applies mostly to music. Some of the huge subterranian sounds on movies demand a subwoofer, of course.

I am very happy with my Denon 2910, especially the BB 1791 DACs.

It might not exactly fit the entry level category, but you can get a Denon authorized B-Stock from eCost for less than $300.

Thanks beuchelt for that tip. I had forgotten about eCost.

I checked eCost and they seem to have two listings for the Denon 2910S, one at $318.99 and another at $299.99. I can't figure out what the difference is between the two listings.

As far as I know, yes. Receivers, of course, do this properly.

The reason DVD players do not reroute LFE is because many people simply have their DVD players connected directly to their televisions, which usually have crappy (at best) speakers that are not at all designed to reproduce low frequencies, especially not LFE.

Why higher-end players and universal players are still designed this way is unclear to me, but I guess old habits die hard.

It's definitely a nuisance for people who want to have a 5.0 channel hirez setup.

Is there any cheap DVD-A authoring software out there?
Not trying to be too much of an as-, but I have a 5.0 and a 5.1 system and I'd really like to test this.

Anybody else? Should I consider a used Denon 2200?
I bought a used Denon 2900 for $250 on eBay for SACD and DVD-A playback. I am quite pleased with it. Like you, my receiver does not have HDMI. So, I use the analog outputs from the player.

I bought a used Denon 2900 for $250 on eBay for SACD and DVD-A playback. I am quite pleased with it. Like you, my receiver does not have HDMI. So, I use the analog outputs from the player.

Thanks, good tip on a 2900. Do you know if the 2910 offers anything over the 2900 in terms of audio quality?

Thanks, good tip on a 2900. Do you know if the 2910 offers anything over the 2900 in terms of audio quality?
They both have DSD decoders and high quality (but not identical) Burr Brown DACs. Here's a link to an old thread comparing the two shortly before the 2910 hit the market:

http://hometheaterhifi.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-1132.html

The 2910 has HDMI, which might be a consideration if you have any thoughts about getting a new receiver any time soon.

Thanks, good tip on a 2900. Do you know if the 2910 offers anything over the 2900 in terms of audio quality?

I picked up the Denon 2910 in the marketplace here for $300 a few weeks back. I have the oppo 970 as well. When comparing the 2, I could barely, if at all, tell the difference when listening. The Denon maybe had a larger soundstage but they were very similar. It sounded good don't get me wrong, but to me, not much different.

And I was using the players own DAC's. I actually had the Denon hooked up through the analogs, and Oppo via the HDMI. I was A-B testing Redbook CDs, not Hi-Rez.

Not trying to dissuade you but if you do go this route, don't expect too much of a difference in the sound.

Thanks, good tip on a 2900. Do you know if the 2910 offers anything over the 2900 in terms of audio quality?
The 2900 is actually better in terms of audio quality than the 2910. The 2900 was replaced by the 3910 in Denon's lineup - the 2910 was the replacement for the 2200.

The build quality is much higher on the 2900. Subjectively the sound is a little fuller on the 2900 as well.

Basically the 2910 offers HDMI and upscaling on DVD & that is it's only real advantage on the 2900. The 2900 offers better audio and build quality.

I have both and replaced the 2910 in my hi-res audio system with a 2900. Largely due to the 2910 starting to skip on SACDs & DVD-As (due to a laser alignment issue I believe), but since it still plays DVDs fine, it got moved to a system where I needed an upscaling DVD player rather than sent to Denon for repair. 2900's do have a reputation for being finicky at times, but if you get a good one, it's a very good player. My B stock 2900 hasn't had any issues, FWIW.

The 2900 is fantastic, especially at what you can buy them now for.

The 2900 is fantastic, especially at what you can buy them now for.
Considering they retailed for 1895$ CDN when I was thinking of buying one (I went with the considerably less expensive Marantz DV6400--great audio player as well, though not in the Denon 2900's league on the video side), the current prices are great for those who are in the market. If I didn't already have my Marantz (which I enjoy very much) I'd be looking to snap up one of these for hi-res audio duties.

I still love my Denon 2900 and 2200. They have served me very well for video and audio (hi-res especially) duties for years.

In the next couple of months, I will have a decision to make as I am moving to a house, and will be buying a new 1080p plasma to replace my older Sony HD (4:3) RPTV. I can either go hi-def (least likely), buy an upscaling player like the Oppo, and use for either just video or both audio and video (somewhat likely), or just stick with my 2900 for video and audio duties until I go hi-def (also somewhat likely).

I think the Silicon Image video processor in the 2200 and 2900 is outstanding, and may serve me just fine allowing the plasma to do the upconverting. And the hi-res audio on the 2900 is quite good, so that might be hard to give up. But I am definitely tempted by the upconverting players, and might have to give one a shot.

Either way, I won't be getting rid of my 2900 or 2200 anytime soon. Both are a bit finicky, but have held up quite well. Should be interesting.

I read a lot of universal player reviews last night on Audio Review. I was taken back a bit by how many of the Denon reviewers reported problems with reliability, not being able to read various discs, etc. They also seemed to report a fair rate of having to return units for replacement. With regard to audio quality, some raved and some panned them.

I did find out about the Pioneer Elite units, and the reviews on them were all positive, although there were many, many more reviews of the Denons, so one would expect some negative reviews.

Any other opinions on the Pioneer or other units?

Thanks much.

I am very happy with my 2900, but the bass management is awkward and I'm not sure if I got it right - I basically lowered the bass to all my speakers (except for the SW) by 10 db to achieve a +10 db (relative) SW bass. But the SW still needs manual boosting to make it sound right to my ears. This is inconvenient because I then need to remember to tune the SW bass down when I watch a movie or play a regular CD. Also, I believe that the rudimentary bass management in the 2900 works only for the SACD setting and not for DVD-A; but I could be wrong as it has been a couple of years since I dealt with these issues. How have others dealt with this matter?

I did the same thing you did with the bass management of the 2900, and it works fine for me. The 2200, which was released after the 2900, has a menu setting to do this 'bass boost' automatically. Unfortunately, the 2900 doesn't have that setting.

The bass management of the 2900 works on both SACD and DVD-A. Fixed 80hz crossover if you set the filter on.

As to the reliability issues of the Denons, yes, this model line has/had its problems. Something in the design seemingly made the laser prone to errors. Kind of frustrating on a 'flagship' (at the time) player. Having said that, in my case, the errors pop up rarely, and most of the time, even after several years of lots of use, both my 2900 and 2200 still work great.

The 2200, which was released after the 2900, has a menu setting to do this 'bass boost' automatically.
Wow. I have a 2200 and didn't realize the 2900 doesn't have this option.

I read a lot of universal player reviews last night on Audio Review. I was taken back a bit by how many of the Denon reviewers reported problems with reliability, not being able to read various discs, etc. They also seemed to report a fair rate of having to return units for replacement. With regard to audio quality, some raved and some panned them.

I did find out about the Pioneer Elite units, and the reviews on them were all positive, although there were many, many more reviews of the Denons, so one would expect some negative reviews.

Any other opinions on the Pioneer or other units?

Thanks much.
If audio is your primary (or only) focus, then a Marantz DV6400 could be a good option. I have one (I use it exclusively for hi-res audio) and I've never had any problems with any discs (in fact, on the rare occasions when a rental movie doesn't play in the other DVD players in the house, owing to scratches, the DV6400 works almost every time--very robust error correction). I imagine the subsequent 6500 and 6600 are at least as good, if not better. Just a thought. I'm happy enough with mine that I won't be upgrading unless it stops functioning.

My 2900 will sometimes not read CD-Rs that I burn, that's about it. Never an issue with any SACD or DVD-A. My cheap Oppo reads everything.

I was taken back a bit by how many of the Denon reviewers reported problems with reliability, not being able to read various discs, etc. They also seemed to report a fair rate of having to return units for replacement. With regard to audio quality, some raved and some panned themI have a Denon DVD-3930CI universal player. I purchased it December 22, 2006, so it's basically new.

It is definitely a top-of-the-line player for, both, audio and video. I purchased it, primarily, for it's audio quality, and the fact that it decodes CD, SACD, DVD-A, HDCD etc.,..As I have an extensive collection of CD's, SACD's, and DVD-A's. I listen to music probably 90% of the time.

This unit has separate, or discrete, 5.1ch and 2.0ch analog circuitry, and yields very good sound quality. Moreover, DVD-movie (video) playback is world-class, beautiful picture quality.

However, I've experienced issues in the last few months having problems reading the SACD tracks on SACD hybrid titles. After reading through the thread on AVS
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=666053&page=1&pp=30
I found that many owners are experiencing similiar problems. There are some (european) firmware up-grades available that provide many fixes and are found to be very effective. I'm still waiting for Denon (USA) to release it's first firmware upgrade for U.S. models. It's a fairly premium priced unit (@$1500.00) and should'nt exhibit these sorts of problems, or dysfunctions, as far as I'm concerned.

Otherwise, the DVD-3930CI is an excellent performing unit all the way around.

You DO realize that DVD players (universal players included) do not properly reroute the LFE channel to the front speakers then they're set up as having NO SUB. The LFE channel is "lost".

Do you mean that a DVD player playing a music CD will not send bass to an A/V reciever?

Do you mean that a DVD player playing a music CD will not send bass to an A/V reciever?There is no LFE or bass channel on a CD.

Do you mean that a DVD player playing a music CD will not send bass to an A/V reciever?No, that's not what I mean.

(I'm learning, Kal. :D )

Do you mean that a DVD player playing a music CD will not send bass to an A/V reciever?

To reply in slightly more detail, the problem that sivadselim mentions will occur only when ALL of the following conditions are met:
(1) The disc contains a multichannel recording with a discrete LFE or ".1" channel, such as movie DVDs (Dolby Digital or DTS), most DVD-Audio discs, and some SACDs. ("Standard" CDs are 2.0 channel only, hence the problem does not occur for CDs.)
(2) Audio is sent from player to receiver (or preprocessor) via the multichannel analog connections. (The audio from movie DVDs (Dolby Digital or DTS) is usually sent to the receiver via a digital connection, hence the problem does not occur.)
(3) Speaker system with no subwoofer and main speakers set to "large".

Is there any cheap DVD-A authoring software out there?
Not trying to be too much of an as-, but I have a 5.0 and a 5.1 system and I'd really like to test this.

You don't specifically need DVD-A to test the effect (lack of redirection of LFE channel to mains using bass management in the player), you just need a disc with surround sound, such as Dolby Digital, and with clearly identifiable content in the LFE channel. A system setup / calibration disc that includes test tones for the LFE channel would be best (I'm not sure specifically which discs have this but I remember reading that some do). And of course make sure to use the multichannel analog outputs of the player for the test.

Is there any cheap DVD-A authoring software out there?
Not trying to be too much of an as-, but I have a 5.0 and a 5.1 system and I'd really like to test this.
It'd be easier to simply trust that I know what I'm talking about. :)




A system setup / calibration disc that includes test tones for the LFE channel would be best (I'm not sure specifically which discs have this but I remember reading that some do).
The "Low Frequency Sweep, LFE" track on AVIA is pure LFE.

It turns out I may have underestimated my Oppo 970 for audio quality. I had actually been using it in the bedroom, connected only to a TV, and had not used it in some time for CDs or hi-rez. So, I connected it in the place of the HDDVD player I had been using.

Turns out the CD audio quality is noticeably better with the Oppo. Better soundstage, clarity, dynamics. And this held true on both the analog outputs and using the digital output into my receiver.

So, I will stick with the Oppo for now. Thanks for all the great replies.

Any other opinions on the Pioneer or other units?

I have the Pioneer DV-59AVi and I am very happy with it. You can find them on Ebay for a reasonable price (~$300). I believe this unit was the flagship unit prior to the most current group of players.

The video quality is near the top and the audio quality is also very good. When you connect it an "i" series Pioneer receiver, you can connect the audio via i-link (firewire) for a digital audio connection to the receiver. You can also pick up an older Elite receiver with i-link for about half of the price of what the latest models are listed.

It'd be easier to simply trust that I know what I'm talking about. :)



I believe you, it's just hard for me to comprehend that all the manufacturers would do this. Truth is surely stranger than fiction.
Got any recommendations for a musical sub for a 10'x13' room ?

It turns out I may have underestimated my Oppo 970 for audio quality. I had actually been using it in the bedroom, connected only to a TV, and had not used it in some time for CDs or hi-rez. So, I connected it in the place of the HDDVD player I had been using.

Turns out the CD audio quality is noticeably better with the Oppo. Better soundstage, clarity, dynamics. And this held true on both the analog outputs and using the digital output into my receiver.

So, I will stick with the Oppo for now. Thanks for all the great replies.

Good decision.

I purchased a Harman Kardon DVD47 for use as an audio only transport. I'm more than happy with it. It can be had now for under $200. It plays SACD's, DVD-A's mp3's etc

Like you're planning to do, I use the multichannel outs and depend on its DAC for audio quality rather than the receivers. However, from reviews I've read it the HK had one of the best DAC's in its price range.

Also, reviews of similarly priced players always mentioned one or two annoying shortcomings. (i.e. the Yamaha taking over a minute to load, or the sony's not playing dvd-r's or cd-r's, etc) It also had better bass management features than most others in its price point.

I have noticed though that on some cd-r's it sometimes stops playing. Its also not very forgiving of scratched cd's.

I'm sure their are better options out there but you'll probably have to pay more for it.

I think I'll try the HK also after reading this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=869886