After auditioning a ton of speakers I’ve narrowed it down to two options. One is to max out my budget on a 2.0 system and purchase the Dali Helicon 400 (my top choice) the other is to go with a runner-up, the B&W 805S bookshelf, and pair them with a nice sub and go 2.1. My room is 25X15X9 and my use will be about 70% music and TV (sports & sitcoms) and 30% HT. The speakers are at two different dealers and the listening rooms are polar opposites (one is very small the other is the largest listening room I have ever seen) so I can’t compare apples to apples. Any advice would be appreciated as I hope to pull the trigger this week.

This is my opinion only, having never heard either of those speakers. I have kind of actually done a 180* turn around on my thinking. I used to think that a sub was a "must have", especially for HT listening. I have recently purchased some relatively nice sounding (to me) main speakers (3-way). These have replaced some relatively nice sounding 2-way speakers (Adire Audio's Kit 281). I now run my mains on large where I used to run my 281's (sealed) on small. Even watching HT now, I leave them on large (all other speakers are on small).

If listening mostly to HT (which I used to do), then I would take the B&W's w/sub woofer, but listening to 70% music/tv, etc like you do then I would settle on "my top choice". I would not settle on "second best", if possible. I don't think you would be disappointed. Besides, you can always buy/build/add a sub later on :).

I plan to give my current sub (Quatro Pro 15") to my son and hope to build another one (smaller and better, hopefully).

I'm sure someone else will give you different/better answers/reasonings, but you asked :).

Good luck,
Frank

If you really love the dalis I would get those and save up for a sub and buy it later.

Your bass will most likely be inacurate unless you are extremely lucky.
So it helps to have a sub for easier room placement and possibel equalization if needed.
Room treatments also are very helpful.
I don't have room treatments to correct bass so I don't know how much they can do to make bass accurate.
But I've used the velodyne sms 1 with a sub and have had very nice results.

The sub would be almost entirely for HT. My 705s do not need a sub for music, with the exception of a tiny handful of recordings with unusually deep bass (eg techno, pipe organ), and they have virtually identical bass response to the 805s.

Hey Pulliam!

There are a lot more music recordings with extensive use of bass frequencies that pipe organ music or techno music!

So IMHO the sub is a great complement to any bookshelf speakers if you want a better musical experience. ;)

Hey Pulliam!

There are a lot more music recordings with extensive use of bass frequencies that pipe organ music or techno music!

So IMHO the sub is a great complement to any bookshelf speakers if you want a better musical experience. ;)

Indeed : http://www.har-bal.com/images/frequency_chart_lg.gif

I'd go with a better 2.0 system over 2.1 for your type of usage.

Indeed : http://www.har-bal.com/images/frequency_chart_lg.gif
I have A/Bed my 705s with towers rated to 22Hz. It is only with things like pipe organ and synth bass that the more extended response of the towers is an obvious advantage. I never get the sense of missing anything at all when listening to any of the instruments on your chart. Either the chart lists theoretical limits rarely reached in practice, or my 705s extend deeper than advertised.

Pulliam,

Try your 705s with "Los Hijos de Sánchez" Soundtrack, by Chuck Mangione. The bass do not goes too deep, but you need power and large speaker volumes to handle the powerful percussions.

This is just an example.

No.... No bookshelf sized speaker can gracefully handle percussions, bass, cellos, organs, not to mention booming hip-hop, techno and similar tunes.

Of course this is just a personal opinion based on my personal experience :)

Pulliam,

Try your 705s with "Los Hijos de Sánchez" Soundtrack, by Chuck Mangione. The bass do not goes too deep, but you need power and large speaker volumes to handle the powerful percussions.

This is just an example.

No.... No bookshelf sized speaker can gracefully handle percussions, bass, cellos, organs, not to mention booming hip-hop, techno and similar tunes.

Of course this is just a personal opinion based on my personal experience :)

Are you sure Some bookshelf speakers have subs built in.

Im sure the b&ws go low enough. That wasn't the point of my reccomendation for a sub.
Accurate bass has way more to it than "does the speaker go low enough".
A sub is easier for placement and equalizing.
Unless you plan on getting room treatments, I believe a sub is neccesary.

I have 2 subs, one for HT and one for stereo only listening.

I set the crossover of the sub used for stereo fairly low so the mains typically do most of the work. However, for those times when there is extremely deep and powerful bass, I personally feel that the extra assistance of the sub is essential.

Pulliam,

Try your 705s with "Los Hijos de Sánchez" Soundtrack, by Chuck Mangione. The bass do not goes too deep, but you need power and large speaker volumes to handle the powerful percussions.

This is just an example.

No.... No bookshelf sized speaker can gracefully handle percussions, bass, cellos, organs, not to mention booming hip-hop, techno and similar tunes.

Of course this is just a personal opinion based on my personal experience :)
One of the reasons that I was able to go back to my 705s after spending some time with towers is that the towers' bass capability was only an asset on a tiny fraction of my CDs, all of which are some form of electronica (eg Madonna's Ray of Light.) The CDs I have in a similar style to Mangione (eg Spyro Gyra) sound awesome. As for powerful percussion, both Blue Man Group and Kodo sound almost like live performances on the 705s (though I would never play them anywhere near as loud as a concert.)

Are you sure Some bookshelf speakers have subs built in.

Mmmmm.... Different animal. ;)

I have 2 subs, one for HT and one for stereo only listening.

I set the crossover of the sub used for stereo fairly low so the mains typically do most of the work. However, for those times when there is extremely deep and powerful bass, I personally feel that the extra assistance of the sub is essential.

This is exactly my point. It is true most bookshelf speakers can sound great even with demanding tunes at low volume levels, but it is very convenient not to be limited. :)

After auditioning a ton of speakers I’ve narrowed it down to two options. One is to max out my budget on a 2.0 system and purchase the Dali Helicon 400 (my top choice) the other is to go with a runner-up, the B&W 805S bookshelf, and pair them with a nice sub and go 2.1. My room is 25X15X9 and my use will be about 70% music and TV (sports & sitcoms) and 30% HT. The speakers are at two different dealers and the listening rooms are polar opposites (one is very small the other is the largest listening room I have ever seen) so I can’t compare apples to apples. Any advice would be appreciated as I hope to pull the trigger this week.
I'm of the thinking that a sub is pretty much mandatory for HT applications (unless you ONLY watch non-special effect laden movies). As folks like JorgeLopez and others have pointed out, it certainly never hurts to have a sub for music and depending on your tastes, it may be outright necessary. As you indicated in your original post, if you go with the 805s, the sub is a must have, but the Helicons make it a little mor interesting of a decision.

I'd say if you really like the sound of the Helicons...go for 'em and plan to add a sub somewhere down the line. If you REALLY liked the Helicons and end up buying the 805's as second choice, I'd bet you'll just end up selling the 805s somewhere down the road to buy the Dalis. Just my 2c.


Scott

I'd say if you really like the sound of the Helicons...go for 'em and plan to add a sub somewhere down the line. If you REALLY liked the Helicons and end up buying the 805's as second choice, I'd bet you'll just end up selling the 805s somewhere down the road to buy the Dalis. Just my 2c.

Now that I agree with. If you buy speakers that are not your first choice, the knowledge that they were not your first choice will always nag at you and prevent you from fully enjoying them. :(

Now that I agree with. If you buy speakers that are not your first choice, the knowledge that they were not your first choice will always nag at you and prevent you from fully enjoying them. :(
You say that like we generally disagree on stuff? Weird.

It's not buyer's remorse (which is pretty much impossible as long as you've actually LISTENED to the speakers before buying them)...it's just that ever nagging voice in the back of your head whispering "imagine what the OTHER speakers would sound like right now"...


Scott

You say that like we generally disagree on stuff? Weird.

LOL :p

Thanks for the input. The difficult part of this is that there are so many great speakers out there with so many excellent amps and pre/pos combos that there are unlimited options to build a great system. While I love the Helicon's, there are so many other speakers that I listened to where I said, "I could live with that and be quite happy." Adding to that you have so many people passionate about the best approach from purists who insist on 2.0 to those who think it's insane to start from scratch in 2007 and not have at least a 5.1 system.

That said, if I wanted to be fiscally prudent I can get the 805s and a sub for just slightly more than the price of the Helicons and the 805's are easier to drive so I can save a little on amplification and if I evetually go 5.1 the center is half the price but... those Helicons sound really special, particularly when you listen to them on lesser volumes where they don't seem to lose any detail and I live in NYC and like my neighbors. Then there is the whole bookshelf vs. floorstander debate and you can keep on going. It's been next to impossible to narrow my options down to these two choices but, having done so, I can take one more afternoon and spend some time with the 400's (perhaps even hear it with a sub as well) and the 805's with a sub and make a decision.