PREFACE

I see many people on both sides of the fence continuing what seems to be an neverending debate about which is the better format, all to no avail. There is no winning that debate and if we could all, if only for a moment, be totally impartial, we'd acknowledge that both formats have their own strengths and weakness and to which side one leans is only a matter of how they rank each formats respective qualities. So please, let's put that debate aside for the time being - at least in this thread. We've all seen enough threads devoted to pitting one format against the other based on their qualities.

Having said that, it's very seldom that I see anyone point out the following facts which to me (in light of the similarity of what the two formats offer) are fundamental to making the decision of which of the two formats to back - if either at all at this stage.

It's a long post, but I can assure you that if you continue to read, it will be clear as to why HD DVD still reigns as the most worthy and logical HD choice.

SONY - FRIEND OR FOE?

Sony did their homework on this one people. Where several of their technologies continued to fail to be accepted as the standard (BetaMax, MiniDisc, etc) perhaps they figured they should just use slight of hand. I mean if I can only buy Casino Royale in HD on Blu Ray, then maybe I need to buy a Blu Ray player, right? (By the way, the Sony product placements in that James Bond movie were downright shameless). Their ownership and control of Studio catalogues is a bad thing for BOTH HD DVD supporters AND Blu Ray supporters. To make matters worse, they've saddled Blu Ray with region coding limiting our (or those who choose Blu Ray) choice of titles to those available in North America.

The stout studio support that Blu Ray garners is no mystery. Some of the exclusive major studio support that Blu Ray enjoys are from the very studios which Sony owns and controls. They include: Sony Pictures - formerly Columbia Pictures and Tristar Pictures; and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer (MGM). Let's not forget Lionsgate, which they did have a stake in at one point (can anyone say politics?).


TOSHIBA

Too many HD DVD supporters are quick to assign blame to Toshiba for the current state of affairs and advocate marketing ploys that would encompass force. Whether be it forcing consumers to buy HD DVD because they want DVD and they only become available in a combo format or otherwise. This is unfair, especially if would mean that it would happen at the expense of the consumer - which it most certainly would. People who don't have financial means or interest to enter the HD world just yet shouldn't be forced to do so. Further HD DVDs reach, but not at the expense of a consumers ability to be fiscally responsible.

Toshiba, thus far, has not played dirty - or at least not to the degree in which Sony and their copatriots have. I wouldn't mind if it stayed that way, hopefully not at the expense of the HD DVD format faltering. In fact in my opinion Toshiba has made decisions that place more power in our hands only to the detriment of their format. Whether this was by design or not is irrelevant. Lets not forget that they provided us with a comprable and more affordable option.

SO, NOW WHAT?

We're all familiar with the adage, cash is king. This is no exception. The fact that Blu Ray hardware is still relatively more costly despite the fact that they are competing with HD DVD makes me wonder what prices would be like if Sony succeeded in it's quest and this was a Blu Ray world with them owning the rights to not only the technology but ALSO so many of the movies you'd buy to play in them. Sony is not exactly renown for it's competitve pricing policies. IMO that's very telling of what we'd be in for.

We all owe it to ourselves to ensure that Sony does not end up being the primary mainstream HD content/hardware provider by supporting HD DVD. The hardware is cheaper and currently, software is nearly as good if not just as good. With multi-layer HD DVDs in the horizon, there is a very good chance that it will continue to be just as capable as the Blu Ray Disc.

In the meantime, lets also hope that Universal remains steadfast in it's commitment to releasing it's catalogue in the HD DVD format. I think if Universal were to change its backing, we'd all be in for a rude awakening and that HD DVD might just be the BetaMax of this decade - in North America at least.

CONCLUDING THOUGHTS

I don't hate Sony. In fact my home is littered with devices which they manufactured. Even at the onset of the HD dispute, I must admit, I was more inclined to go with Blu Ray. In hindsight, it was probably due to ignorance and my own personal predispositions. Needless to say, following what I've learned about this format war, I have had a major shift in attitude as to whether Sony is even deserving of the right to win our support.

Notwithstanding that, it would have been nice if Sony and Toshiba succeeded on the merits of what they offered rather than the ability to force consumers who want to watch an HD title to buy into their technology. Ideally, these companies would have agreed on ONE format and then even more choice would be available to us. But in keeping with the theme of all or nothing, Sony would never concede to such an sitution unless it was "their" technology. It's a moot point. We are where we are. But Sony, going back to 2003, anticipated this and made sure that if consumers didn't want their technology, but wanted their titles, they'd have no other option. Their systematic investments did just that. The technology/format war should be based on several factors none of which include the ability of one party to control access to content and the abilty of the consumer to buy the software, or lack thereof.



Not long ago a friend of mine who owns both Blu Ray and HD DVD players/titles said "You really want Toshiba to win this format war, don't you?" My reply was, "That's not how I'd put it.....I'd say I want all of us [I]to win".


*****

"How well would Blu Ray be doing today if Sony didn't have a stake in the studios and control their ability to release their content in both formats while still being the much more expensive option as far as hardware is concerned."

I don't really know what the point of your post is, but I'll say that if Sony didn't have as much stake in the studios as they do, this "war" wouldn't have started to begin with. Sony and Toshiba would've had a much easier "playing ball" with each other if it weren't for all this studio support crap.

To be honest, I can't believe I'm supporting EITHER of these formats at this point, let alone actually owning both and buying both. But I am. I just think it's a damn shame that these 2 companies couldn't realize they would be doing so much better together than competing with each other. Ridiculous.

I don't really know what the point of your post is, but I'll say that if Sony didn't have as much stake in the studios as they do, this "war" wouldn't have started to begin with. Sony and Toshiba would've had a much easier "playing ball" with each other if it weren't for all this studio support crap.

To be honest, I can't believe I'm supporting EITHER of these formats at this point, let alone actually owning both and buying both. But I am. I just think it's a damn shame that these 2 companies couldn't realize they would be doing so much better together than competing with each other. Ridiculous.

If you didn't get my point, perhaps you should revisit the narrative. It couldn't be clearer.

As for your assertion that this war would be non-existent if it wasn't for Sony owning studios, I couldn't disagree with you more. Take a look at the Beta vs. VHS history. You'll see that Sony didn't play ball with JVC (and vice versa) then and it is not now with Toshiba. Historically speaking, Sony doesn't 'play ball' with anyone unless it's their ball that is being played with. :) They have always been adamant in blazing their own path - sometimes very successfully, many times not. If that doesn't create any doubt as to whether they would have played nice...I'm not sure what would.

Why choose HD DVD over BluRay?

Because the HD DVD group has put out quality discs from the beginning, no Fifth Element crap there.

Because HD DVD's promised features all work right now and will work on every HDDVD player (except the bastardized LG combo) ever made. BD's features are still MIA and definitely won't work ever on all existing players except possibly the PS3.

Because BD group's tactics in this war have rivalled Nixon for dirty tricks. Announcing tons of releases at major shows to hype their "superior exclusive studio support" only to have all but a tiny handful end up cancelled or "postponed" with no explanation or new release date announcements.

The plain fact is that HD DVD can and does deliver what they promise while the BD group engages in outright false release announcements and with an apparently clear conscience sells overpriced obsolete players.

HD DVD fights this war with product and delivers on it's promises, BD fights with payoffs to retailers and rental companies and deception of the public as to the capabilities of their players.

All retail stores are putting up notices next to the tv sets with no digital tuners warning of possible obsolecence in Feb. of 09, none are posting notices next to standalone BD players warning that they will never be able to utilize the future features on BD discs, assuming these ever materialize at all.

This is not BETA vs VHS, this isn't Laserdisc vs DVD, this is not DVD vs DIVX, this is HD DVD vs Blu Ray... why would I pick HD DVD?

1. Region Coding
2. Price
3. There is NO discriminable difference between HD DVD and Blur-ray, PERIOD.
4. Sony has lost all of my respect and I will neither purchase another of their products NOR will I pretend to watch their movies (or pay for them for that matter) Columbia Tri-Star and Sony Pictures, have got all their money the ever will from me... SO it was a VERY easy choice to choose the better of the two formats that is MUCH more consumer friendly.

HD DVD

Why choose HD DVD over BluRay?

Because the HD DVD group has put out quality discs from the beginning, no Fifth Element crap there.


I completely agree. The re-issue of Traffic that Uni sent me is awesome. :rolleyes:

And I love watching Jaws and JP in 1080 with TrueHD. Kudos to Universal and Paramount for supporting lossles audio.

I have them both and they both have there pro's and con's. As far as PQ I will say it is about even now especially when the same codecs are used across the board. I personally woyuld prefer that the studios release on both formats and let the consumer decide. This isn't really a war anyway as there are still not enough HDTV's out there to support it.

I know the deciding factor for me was price. I could get an HD DVD player at a fraction of the cost of a Blu-Ray machine, plus it seems like most HD DVD discs are cheaper than their BR counterparts(assuming it's not one of those idiotic combo discs).

I completely agree. The re-issue of Traffic that Uni sent me is awesome. :rolleyes:

And I love watching Jaws and JP in 1080 with TrueHD. Kudos to Universal and Paramount for supporting lossles audio.

Hey, don't forget about the awesome new re-issues of Lethal Weapon 1 & 2, The Fugitive, Full Metal Jacket, and Spartacus. Man, that Spartacus transfer is tier -1. :D

Seriously though. Even though I lean to the Blu side I think there are quite a few Universal titles that are worth getting a cheap player for. Plus The Matrix and a few other Warner Bros titles those slackers haven't released on BRD yet.

At the end of the day do you want a format that has extra layers of untested drm and region coding? If you also like letting the studios decide the format you view things in then Blu is sounding like the better choice already.

Like you said Toshiba has been playing fair, if all the studios went neutral overnight Blu Ray would have no chance of winning because it delivers the same experience for a greater cost to the consumer in money and in freedom.

Why pick HD DVD? Because Universal titles are there. That's really the only good reason at this point imho.

It's a good reason, though, for Universal fans. I know that's why I bought my A1 and XA2. I love The Mummy and The Mummy Returns.

That said, it's not enough to make me favor it over the much greater potential success both technologically and saleswise of Blu-ray. I'll temporarily support both formats until one removes the other. I don't care who wins as long as someone wins. And hopefully that someone won't be Microsoft or Apple with 720p downloads with DD 480k audio.

Blu-ray, the communist Nazi format? :D

I'd buy into HD-DVD if:

there were 3 layer discs

major studios other than Universal supported it. At least Disney and Fox.

more hardware companies made players/drives for it

No more combos

more highbitrate titles (with the 3 layers)

Universal recalled the current HDless version of Traffic and put out a real HD-DVD(not that I would buy it but they should)

Things that have yet to be answered (before any consumer passes judgement):

1. Will the HD DVD 51Gb disc specification be ratified (it's due to be next quarter) before Blu-ray's 75Gb discs? If so then out goes Blu-ray's only technical superiority. Not that it is a real superiority anyway - just a perceived one as prior to last month only three (3) MPEG-4 movies made full use of the extra space over 30Gb!

2. Will HD DVD ever introduce region coding. If so then out goes a major HD DVD superiority. Unlikely but still possible.

3. Will either of the big two, Buena Vista or Disney, become format neutral? If so then out goes Blu-ray's only marketing superiority. The other side of the coin is if Universal ever becomes neutral (unlikely until at least 2009).

4. Will Blu-ray's dual-layer disc manufacturing problems be remedied? I refer specifically to the 'fingerprint' read errors and the recent oxidation susceptibilities. If not then consumers will be swift in abandoning their loyalty - remember consumers will only find out 2 years down the track whether the discs only last 2 years ;-)

5. Will all current Blu-ray players support the two new DRM measures (BD+ and AACS sequence keys)? If not then there will again be severe consumer backlash!

6. Will Walmart stock the $199 standalone HD DVD players next year? If so then it is game, set and match to HD DVD.


Until at least some of these questions are answered then, my friends, any person that tells you one format is already the winner is quite frankly a delusional head case.

If you want a brick in your living room pick HD-DVD....y'all are on the way out. Not much can change that with low price BR players looming....

I wouldn't say I have all the answers here but let me attempt to raise a few pertinent points that I've learnt and observed...

Things that have yet to be answered (before any consumer passes judgement):

1. Will the HD DVD 51Gb disc specification be ratified (it's due to be next quarter) before Blu-ray's 75Gb discs? If so then out goes Blu-ray's only technical superiority. Not that it is a real superiority anyway - just a perceived one as prior to last month only three (3) MPEG-4 movies made full use of the extra space over 30Gb!.

Toshiba has mentioned officially that it has tested the 3-layer 51GB HD DVD with commercial HD DVD playback machines and they saw no compatibility issues. At least, Toshiba's statement was "Toshiba has confirmed the disc structure and its successful operation."

Don't really know if a 3-layer BD disc could be supported on existing playback machines. Especially since the disc structure is "more sensitive" than HD DVDs, or so I've read.

2. Will HD DVD ever introduce region coding. If so then out goes a major HD DVD superiority. Unlikely but still possible.

Even with region coding implemented, the studios can still opt not to use region codes on their releases. Just like managed copy feature, the studios can opt not to provide the feature at all, although the copy-protection mechanism supports it. So both region coding and managed copy are optional features which the studio can choose whether or not to have them used on specific releases.

3. Will either of the big two, Buena Vista or Disney, become format neutral? If so then out goes Blu-ray's only marketing superiority. The other side of the coin is if Universal ever becomes neutral (unlikely until at least 2009).

Sadly (I'm being biased towards HD DVD), Disney has chose to be Blu-ray exclusive when it had contributions towards what HDi and interactivity is today on HD DVD. I've always thought that Disney could have done a lot for its high-definition releases and rejuvenate its catalog animated titles to offer far more surprises to kids and families, if it had chosen to release on HD DVD.

Personally I doubt very much if Universal would become neutral... In my opinion, even if it does, it won't happen so soon, at least not the next few years

With the HD formats taking up only single-digit percentage of the home video market, there's still a lot of room and possibly time for HD DVD and Universal Studios to maneuvre and turn the tables around. Its more important to maintain consistency throughout the war to win the war than rush to proclaim victories over scattered battles which does not always translate to an ultimate victory.

6. Will Walmart stock the $199 standalone HD DVD players next year? If so then it is game, set and match to HD DVD.

Problem is, the lower costs of HD DVD players is anything but one of the few factors that attracts new consumers. The BDA just have to throw a few marketing lingo and add a few more logos of exclusive big brandnames with their licensed movie characters, and consumers buy into it, then this so-called advantage would become relatively useless. Of course, I'm making some assumptions here... about consumers' behavior and preferences.

HD-DVD has the cheapest player, picture in picture and is region free, however 1080p is not yet perfect.

Sony's overt plan of attack which are anti-competitive, and have left many consumers who contemplate entering the HD home video world with decision making skewed as a result of availibilty of titles rather than that which is based on unfettered judgement of the better fit.

This is a great summary and I fear that without a dual format player under $200 in the next year, all will be lost and HD DVD & Blu-Ray will end up a niche format only for the real enthusiast. I have heard too many people say that they a) can tell very little difference in HD vs SD and b) that they don't care about HD at all.

If SD DVD's can look "good enough" on their HDTV with a $100 upscaling player, I don't see why the average consumer would dish out $350-$1000 for an HD player. The prices really need to drop and fast...or we will all be SACD / DVD-A fans of the video world :(

Hey, don't forget about the awesome new re-issues of Lethal Weapon 1 & 2, The Fugitive, Full Metal Jacket, and Spartacus. Man, that Spartacus transfer is tier -1. :D

Seriously though. Even though I lean to the Blu side I think there are quite a few Universal titles that are worth getting a cheap player for. Plus The Matrix and a few other Warner Bros titles those slackers haven't released on BRD yet.


What's wrong with FMJ? I thought it was great picture and movie..

If you want a brick in your living room pick HD-DVD....y'all are on the way out. Not much can change that with low price BR players looming....

Only "bricks" I see are the $1000 - $1500 BD players that aren't even capable of utilizing all the future Blu-Ray features! :rolleyes:

Despite your rhetoric, neither format has won anything besides bragging rights over who currently has the greatest share of next-to-nothing in the software business. Go read a few more Sony press releases...

Why pick HD DVD? Less DRM, better interactivity specs and player standards. Same quality for less money.

I have both, but the biggest selling feature for HD DVD to me is VALUE.

If you want a brick in your living room pick HD-DVD....y'all are on the way out. Not much can change that with low price BR players looming....


We don't know how "low" the "low price" BD players are going to be, or how "cheap" they are going to be compared to the low price HD decks.

Everyone and their grandma is anticipating a $199 HD DVD player by Xmas. Will BD be able to match that price or will they still be 50% more?

I think people underestimate how "cheap" the typical consumer is when it comes to things like this. With many people finding the differences between HD and SD media marginal (on their 37" TV) HD needs to be priced as a "value add" not a "whole new thing". HD DVD gets this and BD does not.

If no studios will go neutral for HD DVD in '08 though it's going to be an extremely tough road for them. I guess at the end of the day the studios hold all the cards.

The best format is sort of a hybrid of the two:

hd-dvd's combo discs
blu-rays storage capacity
hd-dvd's programming that is easy on special features
hd-dvd's player prices
support from all studios
hd-dvd's players that had all the options you need when they came out so you don't have to guy buy a new player to get all the features
blu-rays PS3 to get the public in on hd media.

Neither format is better than the other, just different. They both have great features IMO.

All I wanted was a Hi Def stand alone player at a friendly price and a great mix of movies to select from and buy that delivers primo PQ/AQ, don't care about promises, specs, brand loyalty/hatred, stats, pie charts, graph trends, plans, blah, effin' blah....not gonna say a negative word about BR...Sony may be just th_is close from delivering as well, maybe not, but HD-DVD gives me everything 'I' want right now - thats why I picked it.

Thread 939,872,350,298,570,293,452,437,509,823,479 on this topic, why did it need another?

Simple.For a variety of reasons all of which have been discussed above by many other intelligent owners of HD DVD/dual format owners.Most of us consider HD DVD to be the superior format.3 out of every 4 films that come out on both formats end up with HD DVD having the superior version.Though i am a dual format owner, my days as a Sony fan are long gone.There's alot of competion that makes products just as good if not better than Sony for a much better price and repair rate.The days of people paying a 20% premium for the Sony name being on a product are gone.Lastly, Sony has made some very bad buisness decisions regarding the PS3.Though the PS3 is a great BlueRay player for the money, most people who bought it expecting a state of the art gaming console feel as though that they have been duped out of $600 all the while Sony's intent was to force BlueRay into homes that wanted a game console, like it or not.

HD DVD has been a format that has been rather inexpensive to get set up into(compared to BRD),the quality is better for the most part,they are more economical to produce,and imo have a vastly superior library of movies so far, though that would be true only up to a person's individual taste in movies.Ultimately it's up to what the individual prefers and it isn't a person vs. person war the way some fanboys treat the subject.

If you want a brick in your living room pick HD-DVD....y'all are on the way out. Not much can change that with low price BR players looming....


Yeah, I bet all those Blockbuster people are rushing out to spend $500 on a DVD player. Nice trolling though.

1. Will the HD DVD 51Gb disc specification be ratified (it's due to be next quarter) before Blu-ray's 75Gb discs? If so then out goes Blu-ray's only technical superiority. Not that it is a real superiority anyway - just a perceived one as prior to last month only three (3) MPEG-4 movies made full use of the extra space over 30Gb!

From the Industry Insiders Thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10863296&&#post10863296

In the last meeting, it moved to the next phase. TL-51 was officially accepted as a valid format to be standardized. Before it was being studied to see if it should go in or not. At least this is my interpretation of the meeting minutes I saw.

Why pick HD DVD? Less DRM, better interactivity specs and player standards. Same quality for less money.


Amen.

If you want a brick in your living room pick HD-DVD....y'all are on the way out. Not much can change that with low price BR players looming....


That post was a "Brick" (the kind that stinks if you get my meaning)

I'd say neither blu or hd is quite ready for primetime. Both have bugs tha need worked out, once when both format doesn't require anymore updates then i'd say get one.

Lets be honest. Sony sucks from a consumer perspective. I just rented Rocky Balboa on DVD and guess what? It won't play on my laptop. If Blu-ray wins, we all lose.

Lets be honest. Sony sucks from a consumer perspective. I just rented Rocky Balboa on DVD and guess what? It won't play on my laptop. If Blu-ray wins, we all lose.

Sony is replacing the disks that doesn't work. Sony didn't kick your mother, just out to make money. Is Universal evil for making combo disks that don't work on most hd players? DRM is something we have to live with, sure it can be cracked but so can doors. Does that mean we should get rid of all the locks on our doors and cars???

The supposedly sub-par HD DVD titles are mostly older catalog films with mediocre source elements. Spartacus is 47 years old and the restoration is now 15 years old. They are not titles that were benchmarks for dvd pq as 5th Element was, and the BD should and easily could have been. Even Sony recognized this and should be lauded for their upcoming re-release but it must be pointed out that if not for competition from HD DVD this re-release would definitely not be happening.

BD is playing catch-up, and not doing a very good job of it in most respects, while trumpeting victory. If it wins it will have been a purchased victory, not an earned one.

Sony is replacing the disks that doesn't work. Sony didn't kick your mother, just out to make money. Is Universal evil for making combo disks that don't work on most hd players? DRM is something we have to live with, sure it can be cracked but so can doors. Does that mean we should get rid of all the locks on our doors and cars???
In all fairness there is a difference between a studio having out-of-spec manufacturing problems on a nascent format and one that intentionally breaks the specification on mature format. Can you imagine Audio CDs not working properly in this day-and-age, oh wait... Sony intentionally broke those as well (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Sony_BMG_CD_copy_protection_scandal). Sony may not have kicked my mother, but they are treating me like a criminal whenever I purchase one of their media products. Which is why I don't purchase media from them. It's a real shame too, since their hardware is generally first-rate.

DRM is only something we have to live with if we allow ourselves to be shackled by it. You seem to forget that without customers, Sony doesn't make any money at all. In fact they seem to have forgotten that as well... or maybe they've just come to the conclusion that the average consumer really isn't that smart.

The supposedly sub-par HD DVD titles are mostly older catalog films with mediocre source elements. Spartacus is 47 years old and the restoration is now 15 years old. They are not titles that were benchmarks for dvd pq as 5th Element was, and the BD should and easily could have been. Even Sony recognized this and should be lauded for their upcoming re-release but it must be pointed out that if not for competition from HD DVD this re-release would definitely not be happening.

BD is playing catch-up, and not doing a very good job of it in most respects, while trumpeting victory. If it wins it will have been a purchased victory, not an earned one.

It doesn't really matter how they do it does it? Look at how many World Series Championships the NY Yankees have purchased. They still got their rings, the title and all the spoils of victory. I love my HD DVD and I hope it wins out but Sony does have deeper pockets and just may have more staying power because of it.

... or maybe they've just come to the conclusion that the average consumer really isn't that smart.


:)


Read some of the "My format has won threads " and the above quote seems to naturally crystallize. Some of these guys on here seem to think that if either side were to win today that all of a sudden you would have an assload of content which is not true. I think for the customer it is about quality and for the studios it is only about content protection/drm and until they can feel confident in this regard there will be some of the studios that will wash thier hands of the HD market, regardless of format.

Do you really believe the studios really care about PQ & AQ??


The main reason for supporting a new format is DRM/Copy protection. PQ & AQ come second. :rolleyes:

If you want a brick in your living room pick HD-DVD....y'all are on the way out. Not much can change that with low price BR players looming....



Only "bricks" I see are the $1000 - $1500 BD players that aren't even capable of utilizing all the future Blu-Ray features! :rolleyes:

...

:eek:

Why pick HD DVD? Less DRM, better interactivity specs and player standards. Same quality for less money.

Player standards? This is a joke, right?

Don't stop the player or you'll have to start all over.... (i.e. no resume)... what standard is that?

Lip-sync problems up the wazzoo.

Only with the recent firmware can I switch away from an HDMI monitored HD-DVD and switch back to it without it having to start over again.

I'm on my 4th player and still encounter disc errors. Rentals are very hit and miss with HD-DVD while Blu-ray plays through.

Seems to me that if you want a format to succeed, at least get it to play through a disc with some reliability. If it can't handle rentals, it's doomed imo.

I'm not anti HD-DVD - I actively support both formats. I used to be anti Bluray, but I realized reliability and convenience were more important to me than any sort of extras.

This is a great summary and I fear that without a dual format player under $200 in the next year, all will be lost and HD DVD & Blu-Ray will end up a niche format only for the real enthusiast. I have heard too many people say that they a) can tell very little difference in HD vs SD and b) that they don't care about HD at all.

If SD DVD's can look "good enough" on their HDTV with a $100 upscaling player, I don't see why the average consumer would dish out $350-$1000 for an HD player. The prices really need to drop and fast...or we will all be SACD / DVD-A fans of the video world :(

Thank you for the kind words. I appreciate it and the fact that you said so because you probaby took some time to read my post. By the way, sorry to everyone for the length of my posts. :)

Don't get me wrong. I don't claim to be an expert and I'm sure that there is no shortage of people out there and on this forum that are more educated on this subject matter. However none of the posts by even the most impartial HD DVD or staunch Blu Ray advocate has attempted to refute the problem with Blu Ray as I presented it above.

...not even an insipid comment to this thread like the following which is not only devoid of fact, but skirts the issue all together:

"If you want a brick in your living room pick HD-DVD....y'all are on the way out. Not much can change that with low price BR players looming...."

But then, it appears that some people are posting to this thread without really reading it. Shame.

Thread 939,872,350,298,570,293,452,437,509,823,479 on this topic, why did it need another?

Snickering Hound,

As I pointed out above, I am well aware of the fact that this debate is hardly one that deserves a new thread. However, most of them revolve around the "qualities" of HD DVD vs. Blu Ray and which is "better". Mine does not. I anticipated some people seeing the thread title would be quick to question it. That is why I have a preface to my post in the hopes that someone who took at least 10 seconds to read the first couple of sentences of my post, would at least cover the fact that I have no interest in inciting a debate as to the advantages and disadvantages of each - but rather what, in my opinion, is the more crucial issue surrounding the HD DVD vs. Blu ray war.

Preface to my original post:

***

"I see many people on both sides of the fence debating about which is the better format and why. There is no winning that debate and if we could all, if only for a moment, be totally impartial we'd acknowledge that both formats have their own strengths and weakness. So let's put that debate aside for the time being. I am sure we've seen enough threads which pit one format against the other based on their qualities.

Having said that, it's very seldom that I see anyone point out the following facts which to me (in light of the similarity of what the two formats offer) are fundamental to making the decision of which of the two formats to back (if either at all at this stage). "

***

I presume you actually read my commentary and not just the title before slamming the thread. Should the issue as I see it not warrant a new thread and topics such as "Both formats are doomed if this is their attitude" and "Missing first disc in Matrix box set" be more worthy of that honour - let me know and I will revert to being a spectator here.


...and here I was, thinking someone might say this thread deserved a sticky! ;)

Being an HD-DVD supporter, I feel that Sony has created an unfair advantage for Blu-Ray. In an effort to help level the playing field, HD-DVD supporters should boycott Sony and all other companies that exclusively support Blu-Ray. Don't buy Sony TVs, watch Fox/Disney movies or TV, or rent anything at Blockbuster. I think if we could get Fox and Disney to go format neutral, then the two formats would be much more even (of course Sony isn't likely to budge, but I can live without them), and then the format war could truly be decided by the consumer.

I mean if I can only buy Casino Royale in HD on Blu Ray, then maybe I need to buy a Blu Ray player, right?

Wrong, you can watch Casino Royale from a SD DVD. :rolleyes:

In fact, I just watched it Sat night on my HD XA2 upscaled to 1080p and sent to my Panny 65" 1080p Pro HDTV! Very nice, and no Blu-Ray needed. :D

Next thread............

... If it wins it will have been a purchased victory, not an earned one.

I couldn't have said it better myself Steve. It looks like you actually read my post.

It's obvious based on the direction the discussion and debate in this thread is heading in, that most did not.

It doesn't really matter how they do it does it? Look at how many World Series Championships the NY Yankees have purchased. They still got their rings, the title and all the spoils of victory. I love my HD DVD and I hope it wins out but Sony does have deeper pockets and just may have more staying power because of it.

I beg to differ.

Sony could have sunk more money into advertising, product development - they could have given away their players for free just to win. That's fine by me. Hell, sign me up for a free Blu Ray player if that's how they want to approach this! ;)

Read my post. It does matter how they are doing it.

I beg to differ.

Sony could have sunk more money into advertising, product development - they could have given away their players for free just to win. That's fine by me. Hell, sign me up for a free Blu Ray player if that's how they want to approach this! ;)

Read my post. It does matter how they are doing it.

Think "Redskins" of the early 2000's :D

Being an HD-DVD supporter, I feel that Sony has created an unfair advantage for Blu-Ray. In an effort to help level the playing field, HD-DVD supporters should boycott Sony and all other companies that exclusively support Blu-Ray. Don't buy Sony TVs, watch Fox/Disney movies or TV, or rent anything at Blockbuster. I think if we could get Fox and Disney to go format neutral, then the two formats would be much more even (of course Sony isn't likely to budge, but I can live without them), and then the format war could truly be decided by the consumer.

Good idea. I have already begun my own personal boycott of Sony and it's affiliates. It would be nice if we could send a message which is loud and clear, that we know what they are up to and it's not okay for them to infringe on our consumer rights. Boycott would be a very effective method of delivering that message. A message, which sadly, I suspect will never be sent....

I don't prescribe to the notion that Sony is playing dirty. I don't believe in the concept of passing up on reasonable business advantages for rather idealistic notions of ethics that I myself find rather silly. If garnering studio and CE and retailer support equals playing dirty, then quite frankly I think you don't really understand what capitalism is supposed to be. I sure as hell wouldn't spend billions of dollars developing a product and just sit on my ass hoping people buy it.

Let me know when Sony firebombs Toshiba...then I'll have a problem with their actions. For now, I think they're just playing they're playing their cards right. I don't believe studios, retailers, or CEs have an obligation to support both formats, nor do I even think that's a good idea in the first place. Sony got that support, and that's a good play in my mind. Had Toshiba done it, I'd say they did well too.

So no, I will not support HD-DVD because of some rather silly notion of what a company can or cannot do to push their product.

Think "Redskins" of the early 2000's :D


I would say what Sony has done with BD is closer to the Raiders of recent years; they pay big money for “marquee” players (Sapp, Moss), those players under-deliver and they cheat while doing so. Sony has done the same thing. They have lined up their “marquee” players (Disney, Fox) and those players have under-delivered (I think Weinstein has released more in HD than either of those studios) and cheated (inflated release calendars, claimed technology edge that does NOTHING for the consumer) while doing so.

JayCT-34WX15 made some great points in his original post and I would say that I agree with most. I also have no personal vendetta against Sony and have many of their products scattered across my home, but not as many as I did a decade ago. For many years I was what one might call a Sony fanboy and then I had an epiphany; I was paying a premium price for a sub par product with most of my Sony purchases. Oh my old 27” Trinitron was worth every penny I paid for it and my PlayStation was a good investment, but I can’t say the same thing about my cordless phone that lasted all of 4 months or my first-gen DVD player that stopped playing everything after six months and I’m on my third PS2.

Sony owns a piece of everything up and down the BD chain. People go watch CR at the theater and Sony gets their cut via MGM, then they buy the CR soundtrack and Sony-BMG gets their cut, then they buy the BD and Sony Video gets their cut and then they go home and play the BD on their PS3 connected to a Sony LCD. Even the most evil of companies involved in HD DVD (Microsoft) does not control the chain like Sony does. Some have pointed out that what Sony is doing is well within established business practices and for the most part that is correct. There is nothing yet illegal with FUD (War’s over CES announcement) and even the oft mentioned Project Hydra probably has no legal trail to follow, but is it ethical? Just because something isn’t illegal doesn’t mean it isn’t crappy. In most states it isn’t against the law to cheat on your spouse, but if you do it you’re still an untrustworthy ass and Sony has proven to be an untrustworthy ass with in the HDM “war”.

Sony owns a piece of everything up and down the BD chain. People go watch CR at the theater and Sony gets their cut via MGM, then they buy the CR soundtrack and Sony-BMG gets their cut, then they buy the BD and Sony Video gets their cut and then they go home and play the BD on their PS3 connected to a Sony LCD. Even the most evil of companies involved in HD DVD (Microsoft) does not control the chain like Sony does. Some have pointed out that what Sony is doing is well within established business practices and for the most part that is correct. There is nothing yet illegal with FUD (War’s over CES announcement) and even the oft mentioned Project Hydra probably has no legal trail to follow, but is it ethical? Just because something isn’t illegal doesn’t mean it isn’t crappy. In most states it isn’t against the law to cheat on your spouse, but if you do it you’re still an untrustworthy ass if you cheat and Sony has proven to be an untrustworthy ass with in the HDM “war”.

While I personally couldn't care less in the grand scheme of things, this is a great point. However, I will always take issue with people calling Microsoft evil. They are no more or less ruthless than any other corporation, be it General Motors, Johnson & Johnson, or American Airlines.

BD is playing catch-up, and not doing a very good job of it in most respects, while trumpeting victory. If it wins it will have been a purchased victory, not an earned one.

Exactly.

The BDA is very good when it comes to marketing. Particular viral marketing. THIS is why they sell so many discs. But Bluray is nothing else than a pimped DVD, stuck in the past.

HD DVD is very good when it comes to deliver real next generation HD video experience.

In the longrun HD DVD will succeed, because it is simply the real stuff.

That's hilarious. :D

While I personally couldn't care less in the grand scheme of things, this is a great point. However, I will always take issue with people calling Microsoft evil. They are no more or less ruthless than any other corporation, be it General Motors, Johnson & Johnson, or American Airlines.

So your saying that they are no worse then the rest of the Axis of Evil.

Its Like saying WWII Germany was No worse than WWII Japan.

;)

Most stock holders would be pissed if their company wasn't aggressive.

If garnering studio and CE and retailer support equals playing dirty, then quite frankly I think you don't really understand what capitalism is supposed to be.

Garnering studio support is fine. In fact my contention is that studios should be free to go where they please. What isn't fine is buying studio support when that means infringing on our rights as consumers to make a balanced decisions. If my contention encroaches on your idea of capitalism, please cite where you get your definition because last I heard, it encompassed the notion of a free market. If anything, my comments take the definition of capitalism and a free market to heart.

I don't believe studios, retailers, or CEs have an obligation to support both formats, nor do I even think that's a good idea in the first place. Sony got that support, and that's a good play in my mind. Had Toshiba done it, I'd say they did well too.

Just to clarify, lest someone read this and actually be led astray by you comments. Sony got that support on many fronts because it "purchased" it.

I don't believe in the concept of passing up on reasonable business advantages for rather idealistic notions of ethics that I myself find rather silly.

Are you saying that a reasonable business advantage is having enough money to buy success at the expense of a consumers right to choose? Is my idea that a company should not infiringe on OUR right to choose silly? Going back to my original example, would it be okay if a major car company bought gas stations and only sold gas to those who owned their cars? What if Sony didn't only buy a few studios but rather bought them all all the while deciding to quash Blu Ray and HD DVD all together? Would that be okay?

My guess is, you, just like the rest of us, would scream foul.

What if Sony bought all of the studios? Would that be okay?Please don't tempt them!

The feeling I am getting here is that everyone knows that if Sony didn't have a stake in the studios HD DVD would be whooping its ass, but instead us consumers get screwed if we want to watch a particular movie in HD.

I don't prescribe to the notion that Sony is playing dirty. I don't believe in the concept of passing up on reasonable business advantages for rather idealistic notions of ethics that I myself find rather silly. If garnering studio and CE and retailer support equals playing dirty, then quite frankly I think you don't really understand what capitalism is supposed to be. I sure as hell wouldn't spend billions of dollars developing a product and just sit on my ass hoping people buy it.

Let me know when Sony firebombs Toshiba...then I'll have a problem with their actions. For now, I think they're just playing they're playing their cards right. I don't believe studios, retailers, or CEs have an obligation to support both formats, nor do I even think that's a good idea in the first place. Sony got that support, and that's a good play in my mind. Had Toshiba done it, I'd say they did well too.

So no, I will not support HD-DVD because of some rather silly notion of what a company can or cannot do to push their product.

I agree with you.

Good idea. I have already begun my own personal boycott of Sony and it's affiliates. It would be nice if we could send a message which is loud and clear, that we know what they are up to and it's not okay for them to infringe on our consumer rights. Boycott would be a very effective method of delivering that message. A message, which sadly, I suspect will never be sent....

I think the same as well. I've boycotted Sony products since the rootkit fiasco, real great way to treat paying customers.

Having previously been in business with Sony Music, I can tell you that Sony exec's don't live anywhere near reality, unbelievable arrogance and greed.

Remember people: VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS. its the only thing they pay attention to, or they invent new revenue streams
(RIAA/MPAA: piracy = theft? yeah right, lookup the definition in a law dictionary, morons, its called copyright infringement, and its not the same).

(Almost) everything Sony makes is also available from a competitor, and usually works better, and is cheaper.

SONY, you need us, we don't need you.

EDIT: oh, and I support HD DVD :) Blu Ray might be better on paper, but not so far.

I don't prescribe to the notion that Sony is playing dirty. I don't believe in the concept of passing up on reasonable business advantages for rather idealistic notions of ethics that I myself find rather silly. If garnering studio and CE and retailer support equals playing dirty, then quite frankly I think you don't really understand what capitalism is supposed to be. I sure as hell wouldn't spend billions of dollars developing a product and just sit on my ass hoping people buy it.

Let me know when Sony firebombs Toshiba...then I'll have a problem with their actions. For now, I think they're just playing they're playing their cards right. I don't believe studios, retailers, or CEs have an obligation to support both formats, nor do I even think that's a good idea in the first place. Sony got that support, and that's a good play in my mind. Had Toshiba done it, I'd say they did well too.

So no, I will not support HD-DVD because of some rather silly notion of what a company can or cannot do to push their product.


Wow, i have no words for this post. I disagree 100%, and as a business profesional; i hope we never do business. You could use Sonys actions in this war for a great case study for Ethics in Business 101.

Fire Bomb? Come on now, what does violence have to do with Business Ethics. Just becasue someone uses gray area, does that make it right? I guess you have to check you own values for that answer.

Wrong, you can watch Casino Royale from a SD DVD. :rolleyes:

In fact, I just watched it Sat night on my HD XA2 upscaled to 1080p and sent to my Panny 65" 1080p Pro HDTV! Very nice, and no Blu-Ray needed. :D

Next thread............

I can also watch that movie through my neighbours window. But then, it just isn't the same as HD, is it?

Next silly response!

By the way, we all know you have a 65" 1080p Pro HDTV bwclark. You don't have to remind us in every thread you post to... Sheesh. NEXT!

watching some guy sit in a chair and get "racked" over and over...my idea of a fun night :)

Actually after the first chase scene the movie goes downhill....never a buy for me, regardless of format.

Wow, i have no words for this post. I disagree 100%, and as a business profesional; i hope we never do business. You could use Sonys actions in this war for a great case study for Ethics in Business 101.

Fire Bomb? Come on now, what does violence have to do with Business Ethics. Just becasue someone uses gray area, does that make it right? I guess you have to check you own values for that answer.
If you disagree 100% with his post then you're obviously not a business professional. What Sony has been doing in the format war is just dirty politics, nothing unethical. If I'm wrong then please correct me and list some of Sony's actions that you feel have been unethical.

...
Sony owns a piece of everything up and down the BD chain. People go watch CR at the theater and Sony gets their cut via MGM, then they buy the CR soundtrack and Sony-BMG gets their cut, then they buy the BD and Sony Video gets their cut and then they go home and play the BD on their PS3 connected to a Sony LCD. Even the most evil of companies involved in HD DVD (Microsoft) does not control the chain like Sony does. Some have pointed out that what Sony is doing is well within established business practices and for the most part that is correct. There is nothing yet illegal with FUD (War’s over CES announcement) and even the oft mentioned Project Hydra probably has no legal trail to follow, but is it ethical? Just because something isn’t illegal doesn’t mean it isn’t crappy. In most states it isn’t against the law to cheat on your spouse, but if you do it you’re still an untrustworthy ass if you cheat and Sony has proven to be an untrustworthy ass with in the HDM “war”.

I second that.

I posted something earlier in response to something someone said about the anti-competitive behaviour of Microsoft vis a vis Sony. You'll see that if we were to compare the two it presents something of a dichotomy in how the two have been treated. Here it is:

***

"... Microsoft is not the primary stakeholder in the HD DVD format. It did not conceive the technology nor does it have exclusive proprietary rights to it. So they aren't relevant to a discussion of HD format war business practices.

Even still, most companies don't have an unblemished history when it comes to fair and ethical business practice. I dare not defend Microsoft as they are hardly a moral paragon. But lets compare the most notable anti-competitive behavior by Microsoft (Explorer being bundled w/ their OS) with that of Sony. For one, Microsoft's actions didn't go unnoticed (United States vs. Microsoft). The other is that Microsoft didn't have a captive audience with Explorer. I could buy their operating system which came with Explorer and still have downloaded Netscape at no cost.

Sony does have a captive audience insofar as their catalog of titles is concerned. If we don't buy into their technology, we can't watch their movies. There IS NO alternative. We can't just buy their movies from someone else for more money. We just can't buy it period. STARK difference.

You said that "...Sony is doing a good job catching up [to Microsoft]..."

I suggest to you that Sony 'caught up' to Microsoft by placing a Blu Ray player in the PS3. However, that coupled with their recent systematic investments in studios has put them MILES ahead..."

***

To recap you said:

"Even the most evil of companies involved in HD DVD (Microsoft) does not control the chain like Sony does."

Agreed. Perhaps their anti-competitive actions are within legal limits. But how Sony has been able to do so unscathed and without condemnation by consumers is beyond comprehension.

I suppose some of us just eat what we are fed...

:D Why choose HD DVD over BluRay?


I say cause they are not putting out empty promises!

Cheaper players!

All players will support future disc features, for sure! (Some want more than to just watch the movie)

TrueHD support in all players!

REGION FREE PLAYERS

Combo Disc (Kids don't need a $300 HD player on their 27" tube)

Why choose Blu-ray over HD-DVD?

More Studio support.

1080p/24 fps here today.

More disc space and higher bitrate.

Players look cool! :D

Pick your poison!

If you disagree 100% with his post then you're obviously not a business professional. What Sony has been doing in the format war is just dirty politics, nothing unethical. If I'm wrong then please correct me and list some of Sony's actions that you feel have been unethical.

There is no clear answer here, as we could argue that their politics lack ethics! So whether their actions are "unethical" or their politics lack ethics is debatable.

Even still, my contention is you might still be able to say their behavior is unethical.

Business ethics encompasses the idea of CSR (corporate social responsibility). Look it up. Basically it means (among other things) that a company must consider and balance the effect of it's actions not only on it's bottom line, but also on society.

You asked for an example. Here it is...

Sony has made strategic investments to stifle the consumers ability to act in it's own self-interest and to exert control over consumers ability to make unfettered decisions which in my books, does indeed cast doubt as to whether Sony's commitment to CSR is even existent.

I'm going to have to agree with the original post for a couple reasons. Mainly I don't like where Sony is headed with trying to control all media streams. People seem to forget the whole rootkit fiasco, which is a big deal to me (not that I actually bought any Sony-CDs or anything). Imagine what other type of stuff they did or are doing and haven't yet been exposed. Also, they continue to release bogus press releases literally every week. Not that they are the only company doing this, but it reeks of foul-play. I could go on and on about Sony's BS marketing tactics, such as TrueHD, but I'm sure you've all heard the arguments. So I made a decision to not purchase Sony products anymore. They are over-priced and aren't the quality from the 80's-90's Sony who used to actually deliver.

Also, I'm sure its come up before, but the whole adult industry looks to be leaning toward HD-DVD. Although there are a couple of adult BR available, there is clearly a push to HD-DVD. This is due to the fact that Sony does not allow adult material to be reproduced at their own reproduction facilities (or licensed facilities). This is more than an issue of which format you can watch smut flicks on. Its about censorship from a major corporation like Sony. If they set the precedence for banning content, who is to say they aren't also going to ban other movies, such as controversial documentaries like OutFoxed. I don't like the idea of Sony controlling what I watch, where I watch it, or embedding some new DRM scheme that spies on my viewing habits.

I did consider getting a BluRay drive (via the PS3), but the price was just a bit more than I can justify. Also, despite BluRay having more studios, there are just more HD-DVDs that I want available right now. So I choose HD-DVD and I'm not looking back. The bottomline is the format is just cheaper and the quality is the same. I only paid $200 for the Xbox360 add-on, although I am looking at maybe getting a Toshiba player (which TigerDirect has on refurb for $200). Even if HD-DVD "loses", which I doubt, I would have only invested a couple of hundred bucks. Not a huge loss. Its not like my collection of HD-DVDs will suddenly stop working or something. I'm happy with HD-DVD, mostly because its just plain cheaper.

Business ethics encompasses the idea of CSR (corporate social responsibility). Look it up. Basically it means (among other things) that a company must consider and balance the effect of it's actions not only on it's bottom line, but also on society.

CSR is only a concept, not a rule (not even an unwritten one). And even according to those rules, I still don't see how Sony's actions are in any way detrimental to society. If anything, they're detrimental to the free market, but as we all know a free market is anything but. It's a dog eat dog world out there and whether we agree with a company's policies or not doesn't change the fact that they are only serving their people's best interests. Sony is playing according to the rules that others set up, if anyone has a problem with that then tough noogies. Same can be said for any other company including Microsoft.


You asked for an example. Here it is...

Sony has made strategic investments to stifle the consumers ability to act in it's own self-interest and to exert control over consumers ability to make unfettered decisions which in my books, does indeed cast doubt as to whether Sony's commitment to CSR is even existent.
First of all, that's not an example, you simply reiterated what you said earlier. Second, how has Sony "stifled the consumer's ability to act in it's own self-interest"? Last I checked HD DVD was still around and consumers have the option to choose for themselves. Besides that, I still don't see the social and cultural ramifications of Sony's actions. You are seriously taking the concept of CSR way out of context. You're basically charging Sony with harming consumers by limiting choices. How is that different from any business model that has existed in the last century?

I prefer the releases so far, the technolgy and the fact that it is finished. The only thing BD has going for it is disc size, IMHO.

I can also watch that movie through my neighbours window. But then, it just isn't the same as HD, is it?

That's just too funny, great response. LMAO! :)

The better question is "Why pick Blu-Ray?"

The better question is "Why pick Blu-Ray?"

Good question MichaelHDDVD; as a person that plans to eventually go format neutral I’ll answer that one. There are a handful of Blu-ray (or possible) exclusives that I would like to have. The new TFE transfer, if it is up to snub, would be nice to own as well as Pulp Fiction and Frailty if Lions Gate releases it. Primarily I would want a BD device for the BD exclusives that I would rent, but not buy. I’ll rent Night at the Museum and Apocolypto, but I won’t buy them. So when dual-format drives get low priced enough, if my 360 add-on is getting long in the tooth, I’ll probably get one.

Why would anyone chose to own a BD device now is a different question. I guess if there were more than one good exclusive game on PS3 there would be a reason to own one of those and that would bring along a BD drive with the system. I’m not biting just for Resistance and certainly not at $600. I have a better UNIX box in my Mac and a better DL content, gaming and HDM device in my 360.

The only other reason I can see to own a BD device is if you are a big-time film buff, with a nice chunk of disposable income that does not care about your BD device not being up to spec in November. I don’t have that kind of money and if I did I would hold off until the BD spec is finalized and implemented before jumping on board.

... Same can be said for any other company including Microsoft.

I disagree. Again, lets compare the most notable anti-competitive behavior by Microsoft (Explorer being bundled w/ their OS) with that of Sony. Microsoft didn't have a captive audience with Explorer. I could buy their operating system which came with Explorer and still have downloaded Netscape at no cost. Blu Ray titles on the other hand...

First of all, that's not an example, you simply reiterated what you said earlier. Second, how has Sony "stifled the consumer's ability to act in it's own self-interest"?

It is a PERFECT example. The fact that I reiterated it only speaks to the fact that you ignored it when asking for one. I am guessing the only reason you don't understand how it stifles anything is because you chose to go format neutral. If you didn't and had decided to go HD DVD, I suggest to you that it would have become abundantly clear by now.

Last I checked HD DVD was still around and consumers have the option to choose for themselves.

Again, Sony has a captive audience insofar as their catalog of titles is concerned. If we don't buy into their technology, we can't watch "their movies". There IS NO alternative. We can't just buy their movies from someone else for more money. We just can't buy it period. If both formats survive, I don't see Sony allowing their studios to go neutral - at least in the foreseeable future. Do you?

As I said in my original response to your post, we could debate the "ethics" aspect of their actions. It's been going on for years with no end in sight.

Microsoft: Friend or mofo

I highly doubt MS has the consumers best interest at heart either. Look we are talking about two of the world's larger corporations. They are in the business of making money. They don't give a rat's @ss about what the consumer wants or needs, only if they can make a buck on it.

A couple of years ago it seemed like everything was falling into place for BD, but for some reason MS decided to back HD DVD. MS can deny it, but it probably is heavily related to BD going with Sun's Java over their solution.

BD and HD DVD coiuld have merged if Toshiba was willing to give up its disc structure. Sony probably would have let Toshiba have its way on many other things. I still can't believe people think 30G is enough long term especially if you want one disc containing a HD feature encode and all the special features.

This is huge corporate p!ssing match.

I hope that both formats survive, and co-exist for a long time.

Competition is good. Without Blu-Ray, I doubt that we can buy the A2 today for $250. And without HD-DVD, it is unlikely we can buy the new Blu-Ray player for $600.

But more importantly it will keep both companies honest. As long as HD-DVD is around, Blu-Ray will not dare implement the more restrictive BD+ limitations. And as long as BR is around, HD-DVD will be forced to implement their triple-layer technology.

I really believe that the consumer wins if both formats survive.

Again, Sony has a captive audience insofar as their catalog of titles is concerned. If we don't buy into their technology, we can't watch "their movies". There IS NO alternative. We can't just buy their movies from someone else for more money. We just can't buy it period. If both formats survive, I don't see Sony allowing their studios to go neutral - at least in the foreseeable future. Do you?

As I said in my original response to your post, we could debate the "ethics" aspect of their actions. It's been going on for years with no end in sight.
Brad, you really don't get the concept of social responsibility. Sony isn't obligated to release their movies to third parties (even on principle) and they can do whatever the hell they want with them. You're trying to argue that that's unethical are you not? No one's holding a gun to your head and saying "buy these movies!" You're the one bitching and moaning about how your choices are being limited even though it's not a monopoly. The only (and I mean ONLY) people who talk like you are the ones who don't have the means or the desire to go format neutral. You think it's unethical that Sony is charging an arm and a leg for their product. Well guess what, save yourself even more money and just don't buy them! No one will feel sorry for you just because you couldn't get your hands on Spiderman 3 in high-def.

Brad, you really don't get the concept of social responsibility. Sony isn't obligated to release their movies to third parties (even on principle) and they can do whatever the hell they want with them. You're trying to argue that that's unethical are you not? No one's holding a gun to your head and saying "buy these movies!" You're the one bitching and moaning about how your choices are being limited even though it's not a monopoly. The only (and I mean ONLY) people who talk like you are the ones who don't have the means or the desire to go format neutral. You think it's unethical that Sony is charging an arm and a leg for their product. Well guess what, save yourself even more money and just don't buy them! No one will feel sorry for you just because you couldn't get your hands on Spiderman 3 in high-def.

Good points here, no doubt. But.... I know how the guy feels about having to buy Sony gear to watch movies from Sony studios. Thats a little dicey and many other people feel that way too. Thats the whole anti-Sony mentality that you see quite frequently throughout the AV forums on the web. Its kind of like HAVING to buy Ford gasoline in your Ford car. Its just too much of our money going to ONE company for something that should just be available at a fair price to everyone.

You wonder if someone other than Sony was behind Blu ray if it would have already won this format "war"? Personally, I might have gone neutral...but only if the player prices were $300 or less like my Toshy A2. Im simply NOT paying $600 for a DVD player. Period!

:D Why choose HD DVD over BluRay?


I say cause they are not putting out empty promises!

Cheaper players!

All players will support future disc features, for sure! (Some want more than to just watch the movie)

TrueHD support in all players!

REGION FREE PLAYERS

Combo Disc (Kids don't need a $300 HD player on their 27" tube)

Why choose Blu-ray over HD-DVD?

More Studio support.

1080p/24 fps here today.

More disc space and higher bitrate.

Players look cool! :D

Pick your poison!


But both discs in the future will have the same capacity. PH-DVD

Microsoft: Friend or mofo

I highly doubt MS has the consumers best interest at heart either. Look we are talking about two of the world's larger corporations. They are in the business of making money. They don't give a rat's @ss about what the consumer wants or needs, only if they can make a buck on it.

A couple of years ago it seemed like everything was falling into place for BD, but for some reason MS decided to back HD DVD. MS can deny it, but it probably is heavily related to BD going with Sun's Java over their solution.

BD and HD DVD coiuld have merged if Toshiba was willing to give up its disc structure. Sony probably would have let Toshiba have its way on many other things. I still can't believe people think 30G is enough long term especially if you want one disc containing a HD feature encode and all the special features.

This is huge corporate p!ssing match.

Gee, kinda like even with BD50 they had to put the "Pirates" extras on a 2nd disc?

Consumers see a 2nd disc in the package as some kind of "bonus". As we have already seen, it doesn't matter how much storage you have, marketing pukes will still want to do multi disc sets for the extra perceived value.

Good points here, no doubt. But.... I know how the guy feels about having to buy Sony gear to watch movies from Sony studios. Thats a little dicey and many other people feel that way too. Thats the whole anti-Sony mentality that you see quite frequently throughout the AV forums on the web. Its kind of like HAVING to buy Ford gasoline in your Ford car. Its just too much of our money going to ONE company for something that should just be available at a fair price to everyone.
I understand the anti-Sony mentality I really do. In fact, I try to support HD DVD as much as I can because I feel Sony simply doesn't care for the consumer (as evidenced by their high prices and initial lackluster quality). However, I also understand that as a consumer, the only way to get all the HD I want is to buy into and support both formats. I see where you're coming from with the gasoline analogy but it really isn't the same thing. Gasoline is more or less a necessity, HDM is not. And even if Ford cars only ran on Ford gas, there's nothing to stop you from buying a Toyota that would run on all gas. We as consumers still have choices in the format war and they are either a) to buy, or b) not buy. As long as these options still remain there is NOTHING unethical about it.

I understand the anti-Sony mentality I really do. In fact, I try to support HD DVD as much as I can because I feel Sony simply doesn't care for the consumer (as evidenced by their high prices and initial lackluster quality). However, I also understand that as a consumer, the only way to get all the HD I want is to buy into and support both formats. I see where you're coming from with the gasoline analogy but it really isn't the same thing. Gasoline is more or less a necessity, HDM is not. And even if Ford cars only ran on Ford gas, there's nothing to stop you from buying a Toyota that would run on all gas. We as consumers still have choices in the format war and they are either a) to buy, or b) not buy. As long as these options still remain there is NOTHING unethical about it.

Recap:

How happy would you be in a world in which Ford owned 30% of the gas stations in the country but would only sell gas to those who drove Fords?

The analogy I presented WAS for those who chose to buy something other than a Ford (akin to me choosing HD DVD over Blu Ray).

If it wasn't clear I will spell it out. The choice constraint was not on what car you could buy. So going out and buying a Toyota (as you offer as a solution) is not the defining event. In fact, the point was if say I DID buy a Toyota that I COULDN'T buy gas from those stations which only sold to Ford owners. I thought my example was clear - but I guess not.

I do agree with you on one front. They analogies are not the same. If I bought a car that wasn't a Ford while Ford owned gas stations, I could easily drive to another station that did sell to anyone. On the other hand, for those who choose HD DVD, well they can't buy Sony's titles from someone else. It is a unique product so my example was not harsh enough.

Recap:

How happy would you be in a world in which Ford owned 30% of the gas stations in the country but would only sell gas to those who drove Fords?

The analogy I presented WAS for those who chose to buy something other than a Ford (akin to me choosing HD DVD over Blu Ray).

If it wasn't clear I will spell it out. The choice constraint was not on what car you could buy. So going out and buying a Toyota (as you offer as a solution) is not the defining event. In fact, the point was if say I DID buy a Toyota that I COULDN'T buy gas from those stations which only sold to Ford owners. I thought my example was clear - but I guess not.

I do agree with you on one front. They analogies are not the same. If I bought a car that wasn't a Ford while Ford owned gas stations, I could easily drive to another station that did sell to anyone. On the other hand, for those who choose HD DVD, well they can't buy Sony's titles from someone else. It is a unique product so my example was not harsh enough.
Ok Jay, now you're REALLY not getting the point. It would be unethical for a company like Ford to require that Ford vehicles require Ford gasoline (especially if they control a majority of the market) because gas is a necessary resource that should not be monopolized or otherwise controlled by private organizations. You cannot equate something like gas with high-def media. Do you need to watch Spiderman 3 on Blu-ray in order to get to work? Do FOX titles have to come in red cases for you to keep the fridge light on? It's all just sour grapes but you don't want to admit it. Sony has always been dealing in proprietary hardware and software and guess what, they almost always fail. If you don't like it then don't buy it simple as that. Unless you're being forced into something with no alternative, there is nothing unethical about it.

Recap:

How happy would you be in a world in which Ford owned 30% of the gas stations in the country but would only sell gas to those who drove Fords?
Very, since I own 2 mustangs.

You said above that the Ford example was not really a fair comparison because gasoline is a necessity. I humbly submit that just because HD movies aren't a necessity, it makes their actions no more justifiable.

The only (and I mean ONLY) people who talk like you are the ones who don't have the means or the desire to go format neutral. You think it's unethical that Sony is charging an arm and a leg for their product. Well guess what, save yourself even more money and just don't buy them! No one will feel sorry for you just because you couldn't get your hands on Spiderman 3 in high-def.

With that, I guess the constructive dialogue just ended.

What you say speak volumes to what you think of people who might not have enough money to buy both Toshiba and Sony's products so that they can actually be able to choose titles they want. Your comments are Elitist and quite frankly very insensitive to those who really don't have the means to enter into both formats for the sake of buying movies that Sony will not release on HD DVD. Those people, just like you, should have the luxury or choosing but not at the expense of being coerced to choose one over the other (and the more expensive of the two)!

Whether you agree with me or not (and for your information, I have plenty of money to spend - none of which is earmarked for use to support the actions of a company that might hurt those who don't) realize that what you've said above illustrates perfectly what the issue as I see it is. The additional cost of buying into 2 formats or just buying into the relatively more expensive format all because Sony had the foresight, financial means and power to coerce us to.

I understand the anti-Sony mentality I really do. In fact, I try to support HD DVD as much as I can because I feel Sony simply doesn't care for the consumer (as evidenced by their high prices and initial lackluster quality).

IF you understand that mentality why do you challenge my contempt for Sony's actions (ethical or not)? That is a hypocritical statement.

However, I also understand that as a consumer, the only way to get all the HD I want is to buy into and support both formats.

My point exactly. The only reason for that is because of Sony. Not the studio, per se but because they decided thats the way it was going to be.

Very, since I own 2 mustangs.

HAHA! Me too! A GT and soon (drool) a Shelby Cobra GT 500!!!

On the one hand you say that you understand the anti-Sony mentality and that they don't care for the consumer. I agree with you. To be fair, I'd say most companies don't care for the consumer which is why there are so many laws in place to protect us from negligent and irresponsible behavior by a corporation. We all know that corporations have a fiduciary duty to their stockholders not society at large. On the other hand, you disagree with my assessment of Sony decisions affecting our right to choose and obviously not made with us in mind.

Make up your mind!

I am okay with Sony winning this format war - but it should not be a victory effected by their ownership of studios and me sitting at Best Buy thinking, I prefer HD DVD but absolutely love MGM movies so I guess I need to pay more for the Blu Ray player even though what I want is HD DVD.

If you don't understand that or if that's okay with you, then so be it. Just say so. But don't criticize my condemnation of Sony's actions as being unfair to the consumer all the while saying that Sony doesn't care about the consumer.

If you don't like it then don't buy it simple as that. Unless you're being forced into something with no alternative, there is nothing unethical about it.

I would say you are the one not getting the point. There is no alternative. HD DVD is the alternative to Blu Ray. Great. But a film like Casino Royale only on Blu Ray is inimitable (although some might say otherwise :) ) and has no alternative. Not because the Studio decided to go Blu Ray. But because Sony bought them and decided that's the way it was going to be. GET IT?!?

Your rebuttals are hypocritical and don't speak to the point. Following your concept of what is ethical, I guess it would have been okay for Sony to buy all studios and for us to take what we're given.

I would say you are the one not getting the point. There is no alternative. HD DVD is the alternative to Blu Ray. Great.
You know what? I'm not even going to argue with you anymore because it's pointless. I think the above quote pretty much sums it up since you can't even make up your mind on what does or doesn't constitute a monopoly. Call me elitist if you want, I really don't care because I'm not the one complaining. After all, beggars can't be choosers. If you're really that passionate about movies yet you can't scrape together $500 for a player, then maybe you need to start going to work instead of posting page-long rants on a web forum. This hobby is a privilege, not a right.

Ok Jay, now you're REALLY not getting the point.

This is a last ditch effort to try to show you that you are the one not getting the point.

This should get some laughs but I am sure it's not far from discussions that I am sure happen everyday at electronics stores everyday...

CUSTOMER:

"Excuse Mr. BesstBuyy associate. I have a question for you I am sold on HD DVD and think it's a good fit for me and affordable so I am going to buy a player. Any idea when (insert any Sony owned studio/titles here) will be released on HD DVD? After all I've heard some studios could be going neutral after some time if HD DVD is still around.

THEIR RESPONSE:
"Your HD DVD player is going to be of very little value if you love (insert Sony studio/titles here). So don't hold your breath. Sony bought those studios for a reason. Blu Ray good or bad, more expensive or not. It's all about what you can choose from."

CUSTOMER:
"So your saying that if I prefer HD DVD hardware for whatever reason, I will never be able to buy (Sony owned studios) titles?"

THEIR RESPONSE:
"Correct - at least not in the foreseeable future."

CUSTOMER:
"But that's like Sony buying a television network and only allowing people who buy their TV's to buy the broadcast? Doesn't that force me to..."

THEIR RESPONSE:
"...Yes it does. That's what Sony is banking on sir :)"


So, tlreddragon, since my example with Ford wasn't enough I have come up with one closer to the predicament as I see it.

If you would also be okay with Sony buying broadcast companies and delivering the signal in such a way that only someone who bought a Sony TV could receive it - would that be okay? After all, television is a luxury!

This is a last ditch effort to try to show you that you are the one not getting the point.

This should get some laughs but I am sure it's not far from discussions that I am sure happen everyday at electronics stores everyday...

CUSTOMER:

"Excuse Mr. BesstBuyy associate. I have a question for you I am sold on HD DVD and think it's a good fit for me and affordable so I am going to buy a player. Any idea when (insert any Sony owned studio/titles here) will be released on HD DVD? After all I've heard some studios could be going neutral after some time if HD DVD is still around.

THEIR RESPONSE:
"Your HD DVD player is going to be of very little value if you love (insert Sony studio/titles here). So don't hold your breath. Sony bought those studios for a reason. Blu Ray good or bad, more expensive or not. It's all about what you can choose from."

CUSTOMER:
"So your saying that if I prefer HD DVD hardware for whatever reason, I will never be able to buy (Sony owned studios) titles?"

THEIR RESPONSE:
"Correct - at least not in the foreseeable future."

CUSTOMER:
"But that's like Sony buying a television network and only allowing people who buy their TV's to buy the broadcast? Doesn't that force me to..."

THEIR RESPONSE:
"...Yes it does. That's what Sony is banking on sir :)"


So, tlreddragon, since my example with Ford wasn't enough I have come up with one closer to the predicament as I see.

If you would also be okay with Sony buying broadcast companies and delivering the signal in such a way that only someone who bought a Sony TV could receive it - would that be okay? After all, television is a luxury!
I'm sorry you wasted your time typing all that. I find your futile persistence very amusing. :)

You know what? I'm not even going to argue with you anymore because it's pointless. I think the above quote pretty much sums it up since you can't even make up your mind on what does or doesn't constitute a monopoly. Call me elitist if you want, I really don't care because I'm not the one complaining. After all, beggars can't be choosers. If you're really that passionate about movies yet you can't scrape together $500 for a player, then maybe you need to start going to work instead of posting page-long rants on a web forum. This hobby is a privilege, not a right.

You are funny. Posting only part of my reply to make me look like I can't make up my mind. Here is my response in full including that part that you so conveniently forgot to quote:

HD DVD is the alternative to Blu Ray. Great. But a film like Casino Royale only on Blu Ray is inimitable (although some might say otherwise ) and has no alternative.

This hobby is a privilege, not a right.
That's probably the most offensive and foolish thing you've said thus far. It's been said once here in another thread so rather than copy it and claim it as my own here it is. (I don't think I could have put it any better jcsparks, so I hope you don't mind):
The rights are ours, that's why they are called rights. It isn't for Hollywood, Sony or anyone else to give them back to us.

As for your citing my repeated use of the term Monopoly, check your facts. I never used the word monopoly. Nor did I say that the situation was such. It's probably more along the lines of wishful thinking on your part to save face.

In my opinion your arguments are filled with hypocrisy and lack anything that would constitute a logical thought. :)

I'm sorry you wasted your time typing all that. I find your futile persistence very amusing. :)

Let's get something straight. I have no problem with people who disagree. There are no shortage of people I know who just don't care about what Sony does to win - yet all agree that their studio tactics were by design and come at our expense to choose between the two formats without prejudice incited in large part by them. You on the other hand have yet to present anything that refutes that. In fact, you go as far as to agree with my assessment of Sony not caring about the consumer. I guess that fact has yet to travel from your head to you hands. :) You don't have a leg to stand on pal.

By the way, I am hardly a beggar. I am one who has made a choice based on principle. Big difference. :)

The only thing futile is your ability to formulate an argument. :)

I'm sorry you wasted your time typing all that. I find your futile persistence very amusing. :)

I'm glad you found it amusing. Just know that it wasn't a waste of time because it demonstrates to others your ineptitude and the lengths I've had to go to to explain the same simple concept over and over.

Most of all, what I find amusing is that almost all of your posts here are unproductive and do nothing more than ridicule and chastise other members. Stick to your website. I see you have much more time on your hands than what you suggest I do seeing your website, cognitive pause ("which basically means we are going to let you stop thinking for yourself when you enter our site and we’ll think for you", cogpause.com) is so full of...

Sorry, I'm not a visitor to your website. I certainly don't need you of all people to think for me. However, it's obvious you can only match wits with those who stop thinking for themselves.

Enough said.
:)

Most of all, what I find amusing is that almost all of your posts here are unproductive and do nothing more than ridicule and chastise other members. Stick to your website. I see you have much more time on your hands than what you suggest I do seeing your website, cognitive pause ("which basically means we are going to let you stop thinking for yourself when you enter our site and we’ll think for you", cogpause.com) is so full of...

Sorry, I'm not a visitor to your website. I certainly don't need you of all people to think for me. However, it's obvious you can only match wits with those who stop thinking for themselves.

Enough said.
:)
HAHAHAHAHAH. Talk about hypocrisy. That's not actually my website it's my friend's. Don't believe me? My handle starts with TL because those are my initials. Why don't you look up who actually contributes to the website (hint: I'm not one of them). I'm just the webmaster, but thank you for revealing your ignorance. :) I'm honored you actually took the time to look up my personal information though.

HAHAHAHAHAH. Talk about hypocrisy. That's not actually my website it's my friend's. Don't believe me? My handle starts with TL because those are my initials. Why don't you look up who actually contributes to the website (hint: I'm not one of them). I'm just the webmaster, but thank you for revealing your ignorance. :) I'm honored you actually took the time to look up my personal information though.


Hypocrisy? That sounds about right... :) Look it up :)

HAHA. Once again, true to form.

Hypocrisy? That sounds about right... :) Look it up :)

HAHA. Once again, true to form.
Saw some "missing" posters around my neighborhood, apparently it's the point you were trying to make. :eek:

No more bashing of my website? I'm disappointed. I love it when people tell me to take a break from a website to which I don't contribute.

Saw some "missing" posters around my neighborhood, apparently it's the point you were trying to make. :eek:

No more bashing of my website? I'm disappointed. I love it when people tell me to take a break from a website to which I don't contribute.

I am not sure what your issue with what I've said is and why it is so much different than you asserting the Sony doesn't care about the consumer.

Having said that, it was fun while it lasted. But seriously, I've lost interest.

Let's just say you don't agree or understand my point of view and leave it at that.

Ummmm, I stopped debating the point at post #86. Did it take you that long to figure out?

Ummmm, I stopped debating the point at post #86. Did it take you that long to figure out?

It takes some of us more time than others to figure things out I suppose.

I think the same as well. I've boycotted Sony products since the rootkit fiasco, real great way to treat paying customers.

Having previously been in business with Sony Music, I can tell you that Sony exec's don't live anywhere near reality, unbelievable arrogance and greed.

Remember people: VOTE WITH YOUR DOLLARS. its the only thing they pay attention to, or they invent new revenue streams
(RIAA/MPAA: piracy = theft? yeah right, lookup the definition in a law dictionary, morons, its called copyright infringement, and its not the same).

(Almost) everything Sony makes is also available from a competitor, and usually works better, and is cheaper.

SONY, you need us, we don't need you.

EDIT: oh, and I support HD DVD :) Blu Ray might be better on paper, but not so far.

Boycotting Sony is only one step. But they're never going to listen anyway. In my original post I suggested boycotting Fox, Disney, Blockbuster, and anyone else who supports Blu-Ray, but not HD-DVD. I think they are the ones we should try to send a message to.

Boycotting Sony is only one step. But they're never going to listen anyway. In my original post I suggested boycotting Fox, Disney, Blockbuster, and anyone else who supports Blu-Ray, but not HD-DVD. I think they are the ones we should try to send a message to.

What are we 12? So because you dont like a certain product by sony you are gonna deprive yourself of any fox, disney, sony, or lionsgate movie because they support sony.

I laugh at these comments because I know you arent making one ounce of difference and your missing out on great products because of a personal grudhe against a billion dollar company.

Boycotting Sony is only one step. But they're never going to listen anyway. In my original post I suggested boycotting Fox, Disney, Blockbuster, and anyone else who supports Blu-Ray, but not HD-DVD. I think they are the ones we should try to send a message to.

That's like boycotting Toshiba, since until LG's combo they make machines that won't play Blu. I'm not sure Toshiba is some white knight in the business world.

You'll also have Boycott Panasonic, Pioneer, Samsung (until their combo), Microsoft, Apple, Kraft foods (a division of Philip 'cancer stick' Morris), Starbucks (anti-union), Barnes and Noble (some loose connection with the porn industry), Johnson & Johnson (don't like their baby powder monopoly), Lowes (anti - HD, of course), Pepsico (has blue on the can), McDonalds (spidey in happy meals), Exxon (valdez), . . .

If you do, good. I'm pretty sure we can find problems with something they have done to harm the consumer. It's okay to take sides, but Righteous Anger really only works in the Old Testament.

What are we 12? So because you dont like a certain product by sony you are gonna deprive yourself of any fox, disney, sony, or lionsgate movie because they support sony.

I laugh at these comments because I know you arent making one ounce of difference and your missing out on great products because of a personal grudhe against a billion dollar company.

I know it sounds insane. But its really straight forward. I personally have decided to only buy HD except under special circumstances (24 I can't do without), I only support HD-DVD (due to BD+ in the in the BD specs), and because of that I don't purchase Fox, Sony, LG or Disney movies. Its a bit of stretch to say I won't rent them or see them in the theater but some people might not honestly want to watch something they could never own considering personal stance on not buying SD. You know ignore is bliss you can't desire something you don't know about.

Whether people like it or not Boycotts work great and are not childish. These companies made a stance that we disagree with their is nothing wrong with taking a stance in hopes that they take heed that we disagree with them. Its how things like the SonyBMG rootkit disaster happens. If people had stood up with their wallets when these invasive DRM implementations started then that disaster could have been avoided. I don't like Picket lines, I hate protesters, but I love the freedom our Free Market allows us in dictating change just buy the habits in which we spend our money. The only problem is informing the uninformed in the hopes that they realize the same things and make the same choices.The only thing I hate is people unwilling to make a choice just because it doesn't apply to them just yet.

Keep in mind several people made the same choice in 97 during a war called Divx vs. DVD. I did Almost a week after my first couple DVDs I stopped buying VHS righ away, and I made the samechoice I am making with BD with Divx. Divx tried to take away our ownership of the movie, and now BD is trying to take away our ownership of our hardware as well.

I know it sounds insane. But its really straight forward. I personally have decided to only buy HD except under special circumstances (24 I can't do without),
Whether people like it or not Boycotts work great and are not childish. I don't like Picket lines, I hate protesters, but I love the freedom our Free Market allows us in dictating change just buy the habits in which we spend our money. The only problem is informing the uninformed in the hopes that they realize the same things and make the same choices.The only thing I hate is people unwilling to make a choice just because it doesn't apply to them just yet.

It's great to feel this way, but intolerance of other people's choice, or unwillingness to make a choice, betrays this noble feeling. If you hate these groups you are doing so because you disagree with them. Don't be surprised if they return your hate when they disagree with you. You can't rally people to your boycott cause, and then in the next breath admit you hate protesters and those unwilling to make a choice. Love all, hate none. add peace sign here :)

I know it sounds insane. But its really straight forward. I personally have decided to only buy HD except under special circumstances (24 I can't do without), I only support HD-DVD (due to BD+ in the in the BD specs), and because of that I don't purchase Fox, Sony, LG or Disney movies. Its a bit of stretch to say I won't rent them or see them in the theater but some people might not honestly want to watch something they could never own considering personal stance on not buying SD. You know ignore is bliss you can't desire something you don't know about.

Whether people like it or not Boycotts work great and are not childish. These companies made a stance that we disagree with their is nothing wrong with taking a stance in hopes that they take heed that we disagree with them. Its how things like the SonyBMG rootkit disaster happens. If people had stood up with their wallets when these invasive DRM implementations started then that disaster could have been avoided. I don't like Picket lines, I hate protesters, but I love the freedom our Free Market allows us in dictating change just buy the habits in which we spend our money. The only problem is informing the uninformed in the hopes that they realize the same things and make the same choices.The only thing I hate is people unwilling to make a choice just because it doesn't apply to them just yet.

Keep in mind several people made the same choice in 97 during a war called Divx vs. DVD. I did Almost a week after my first couple DVDs I stopped buying VHS righ away, and I made the samechoice I am making with BD with Divx. Divx tried to take away our ownership of the movie, and now BD is trying to take away our ownership of our hardware as well.

very good post. that explains a lot of my buying preference also.

i am not boycotting sony/fox/disney/lionsgate.. they don't want to sell me their stuff because they are releasing to the wrong format. IMO anybody that likes the bd format features should buy that format.

i am actually more likely to see a new movie in the theater that sony/fox/disney release since i don't expect their new stuff to come to hd dvd soon.

for example, i skipped 300 in the theater because i knew it would be on hd dvd but i (regretfully) saw spiderman 3.

to get me to actually buy bd they need to support internet/pip features, mmc and drop bd+ and region coding.

there are too many alternate sources of content to force me to bd just for content sake. if nothing else, i can switch to renting instead of buying if they insist on leaving out the features that i want and putting in extra drm.

right now i am buying hd dvd discs because the format is more "collectable" imo.

:D Why choose HD DVD over BluRay?


I say cause they are not putting out empty promises!

Cheaper players!

All players will support future disc features, for sure! (Some want more than to just watch the movie)

TrueHD support in all players!

REGION FREE PLAYERS

Combo Disc (Kids don't need a $300 HD player on their 27" tube)

Why choose Blu-ray over HD-DVD?

More Studio support.

1080p/24 fps here today.

More disc space and higher bitrate.

Players look cool! :D

Pick your poison!

Two changes:

1. HD DVD now supports 1080p/24 fps
2. Triple and 17Gb layer discs were finally ratified this quarter - so TL-51 (51Gb) HD DVD discs will be out soon - meaning that HD DVD is now the format with more disc space available.

Even if item #2 is true I am suspicious that we will see any movies use it unless it turns out that all Gen 1 and Gen 2 HD DVD players can be updated through Firmware to support TL51.

And of course as a certain harpist is quick to point out, it still won't increase the bandwidth of HD DVD.

why pick hd dvd?

because it's full of fantastic releases. out of the gate had much better video quality than blu ray. the players are cheaper, much cheaper. catalog titles from universal to me are much more enticing than all the competitions put together.

future releases have more titles that i want.

i tried to convince myself to go with blu ray as well to be able to buy all titles but when i stand in front of the blu ray section at the store i just can't get myself to plunk down 600+ for a player with so few titles that i want.

when blu ray gets better and cheaper. i'll look at the selection and decide if i want to jump in.

until then...........it's hddvd!!

Even if item #2 is true I am suspicious that we will see any movies use it unless it turns out that all Gen 1 and Gen 2 HD DVD players can be updated through Firmware to support TL51.

And of course as a certain harpist is quick to point out, it still won't increase the bandwidth of HD DVD.

I am fairly certain that the triple layer discs already work on Gen 1 & 2 players - that was the main part of the 'ratification' process (to make sure all manufacturers were happy with compatibility and standards).

And yes, the only two real remaining advantages Blu-ray has are:

1. more studio support (though when will they actually start releasing titles?!)
2. about 20% higher bandwidth - the only use I can see is HD picture-in-picture-switching; I.e. reading two 1080p streams simlutaneously so you can switch between which stream in the main picture and which title is the PiP. I for one can not see any value-add in this :-P


So the question comes down to:

Should consumers now choose one format over the other simply because it currently has more studio support? Or should they choose the format that gives them more freedom (no region coding) and is cheaper?!

That is the question that will decide the war.

This, at the end of the day, is nothing but posturing.

I am format neutral, because I can afford it. My opinoion - BluRay will win in the end. However, we still have a couple of years before this is decided.

Again, my chips are on Blu-Ray because I have yet to pick a reason to pick HD DVD over BD. PQ is pretty much on par with BD and the HD DVD supplements so far suck. HD DVD just does not have the overall films BD has and will have. For me, Criterion could cement this, if they went BD exclusive.

And yes, the only two real remaining advantages Blu-ray has are:

1. more studio support (though when will they actually start releasing titles?!)
2. about 20% higher bandwidth -Where did you get your 20% number? HD DVD is about 30Mbps for everything and 29.4Mbps for video, while Blu-ray is about 48Mbps for everything and 40Mbps for video. That sure isn't "20% higher bandwidth". Taking everything it is about 60% higher and considering movies with little to no audio, it is about 36% higher. Start throwing in lossless audio for both and the percentage just considering what is left for video goes up from the 36%.
the only use I can see is HD picture-in-picture-switching; I.e. reading two 1080p streams simlutaneously so you can switch between which stream in the main picture and which title is the PiP. I for one can not see any value-add in this :-PYou ignore all uses of seamless branching, where even Amir has told us that at least one studio wants to use seamless branching for something other than the traditional use (theatrical cut and Director's cut together, for instance). Probably not something that really benefits the user, but makes it tougher to compress the video without degradation. At this time I don't know of a single HD DVD release using seamless branching, but I'm sure there will be some at some point.

--Darin

Because Blu-Ray is the stupidest name I've ever heard.

Yeah, and HD-DVD is pretty original too. I bet people who stutter have a really tough time with it. H...D...D...DD...DVDDD. Argh.

About Blu-ray vs HD-DVD... At this point BRD just has more potential. Most of the studios are on board, new DRM to drive the pirates crazy, 50gb discs NOW, more bandwidth, blue cases, region coding... ;-)

HD-DVD has some great Universal titles though, and it's cheaper, at least the players are. Not bad for the little red format that could.

Because Blu-Ray is the stupidest name I've ever heard.

HAHA - As much as that may or may not be the case, most of the recent posters digress as to the bigger issue as presented in the first post to this thread...

Because Blu-Ray is the stupidest name I've ever heard.
True - especially since the laser light is not colored blue at all - it is without a doubt violet in hue.

Who in their right mind names this color blue?!

http://www.photonic-products.com/images/index/sq_modulateable405_25mw.jpg


I think we should call it for what it really is; 'Violet-ray Disc', or 'VD' for short :-)

True - especially since the laser light is not colored blue at all - it is without a doubt violet in hue.

Who in their right mind names this color blue?!

http://www.photonic-products.com/images/index/sq_modulateable405_25mw.jpg


I think we should call it for what it really is; 'Violet-ray Disc', or 'VD' for short :-)


Or how about DVD? lol, seriously the name Blu-Ray reminds me of a creature from Sponge Bob Square Pants.

HD DVD is about 30Mbps for everything and 29.4Mbps for video, while Blu-ray is about 48Mbps for everything and 40Mbps for video.

--Darin

I thought Blu-ray was 54Mbps max, and HD DVD was 36Mbps max?

So HD DVD is 3X DVD bandwidth, and Blu-ray is 4.5X DVD bandwidth?

The same reason you get Pokemon Red over Blue? Universal? I have an A1 and 20gb PS3, so I'm good to go.

very good post. that explains a lot of my buying preference also.

i am not boycotting sony/fox/disney/lionsgate.. they don't want to sell me their stuff because they are releasing to the wrong format. IMO anybody that likes the bd format features should buy that format.


right now i am buying hd dvd discs because the format is more "collectable" imo.


I feel the same way. If Disney and Fox don't want to sell me their products in HD so be it. I'm not going to bend over and accept whatever format they put their stamp of approval on because they decide to play favorites.

I feel the same way. If Disney and Fox don't want to sell me their products in HD so be it. I'm not going to bend over and accept whatever format they put their stamp of approval on because they decide to play favorites.

Couldn't have put it any better myself. Perhaps boycott was not the word we should use for studios, but it certainly applies to Sony for me.

I thought Blu-ray was 54Mbps max, and HD DVD was 36Mbps max?You are right and I wasn't clear about what I meant by "everything". Those numbers you mentioned are for off the disc, but each format reserves about 6Mbps for some kind of overhead, which leaves them at close to 30Mbps for HD DVD and 48Mbps for Blu-ray for video, subtitles, audio, etc.

--Darin

This, at the end of the day, is nothing but posturing.

I am format neutral, because I can afford it. My opinoion - BluRay will win in the end. However, we still have a couple of years before this is decided.

Again, my chips are on Blu-Ray because I have yet to pick a reason to pick HD DVD over BD. PQ is pretty much on par with BD and the HD DVD supplements so far suck. HD DVD just does not have the overall films BD has and will have. For me, Criterion could cement this, if they went BD exclusive.

Posturing? Do you know what that means? Did you read the first post? It's hardly posturing.

It my assessment of ....

n.m

with all the extra bandwidth(?) and storage that blu ray supposedly has over hddvd why is it that it is a shining achievement whenever a blu ray title's pq and aq is equal to hd dvd?

shouldn't it be a regular occurance for blu ray to be superior in performance as well as packed with so many more extras?



seems funny to me.

Yeah, and HD-DVD is pretty original too. I bet people who stutter have a really tough time with it. H...D...D...DD...DVDDD. Argh.

About Blu-ray vs HD-DVD... At this point BRD just has more potential. Most of the studios are on board, new DRM to drive the pirates crazy, 50gb discs NOW, more bandwidth, blue cases, region coding... ;-)

HD-DVD has some great Universal titles though, and it's cheaper, at least the players are. Not bad for the little red format that could.
God knows we all love enhanced DRM...Oh and your blue colored case argument was really impressive...also isnt it great not being able to import movies? This guys post lists the reasons to pick hd dvd. Way to go Kram.

with all the extra bandwidth(?) and storage that blu ray supposedly has over hddvd why is it that it is a shining achievement whenever a blu ray title's pq and aq is equal to hd dvd?

shouldn't it be a regular occurance for blu ray to be superior in performance as well as packed with so many more extras?



seems funny to me.

No kidding, the vast majority of the arguements used by the blu-boys "We have 50 GB!!! Higher Bandwidth!"

The only thing that actually impresses me with Blu-Rays extra capacity and bandwidth is the ability to put multiple lossless/uncompressed tracks on a movie. Ghost Rider has PCM 16/48 and Dolby TrueHD 20/48. Beyond that Blu-Ray still has to impress me.

I just figured out another reason to pick HD DVD over Blu-ray; you’re a fan of the “BLU-RAY totally beyond HD, super pimp-fab, Sony Rulz, gotta have 50 gigs, ruler of the universe, and totally DRMed up to be EXCLUSIVE” Underworld Series. See in about a month I will have The Extended edition of Underworld and Underworld: Evolution on HD DVD. While Underworld: Evolution is available in a lower PQ variant on BD there is no sign of the original in North America. Blu-ray exclusive indeed.

You are right and I wasn't clear about what I meant by "everything". Those numbers you mentioned are for off the disc, but each format reserves about 6Mbps for some kind of overhead..
--Darin

6Mbps overhead seems rather excessive?!

I just figured out another reason to pick HD DVD over Blu-ray; you’re a fan of the “BLU-RAY totally beyond HD, super pimp-fab, Sony Rulz, gotta have 50 gigs, ruler of the universe, and totally DRMed up to be EXCLUSIVE” Underworld Series. See in about a month I will have The Extended edition of Underworld and Underworld: Evolution on HD DVD. While Underworld: Evolution is available in a lower PQ variant on BD there is no sign of the original in North America. Blu-ray exclusive indeed.
:D :D :D :D :D
Another good reason - Netflix is cleaning Blockbuster's clock (Blockbuster is closing another 320 stores in 2007, they closed 260 in 2006 - so much for the Blu Ray supporter).

If you back out the PS3 units (and most of those folks aren't buying movies, they're buying games - numerous reports support that fact), there's actually a 325,000 to 168,000 lead in the number of HD DVD players over Blu Ray. PS3's are a non-factor in terms of movie purchasers.

Even in the most popular HD format disk of all time - Planet Earth - HD DVD outsold Blu Ray, and remains in the top 20 of all format DVD's on Amazon, while the Blu Ray version is #31.

Why?

Because of their better hardware and audio codecs, less expensive, and have better titles available. Seems simple enough to understand. :cool:

Just because Ps3 owners aren't going out in droves to buy BR titles - doesn't mean they won't at some point. You can't ignore it's still more or less a BR trojan horse.
It certainly hasn't done for the format what many of the "experts" predicated though. and it makes one wonder what the market landscape would be like with out the PS3. Sony obviously still has it's work cut out for them in convincing all of those PS3 owners to start buying BR titles. If they could convince every Ps3 owner to buy 15 titles - it would be a horrible blow to HDDVD for sure. If Samsung has moderate success with it's dual format player coming out soon - it could very well mean Philips and Panasonic to join the dual format race. I'm quite curious as to what Denon will be announcing ( supposedly soon) for their HD players.

Content is king - as we all know (right Bill?). So how the hell with all that studio support BR doesn't have 10 times the titles out (compared to HD DVD) is beyond me. It says to me - who cares how may studios you have if you can't put out substantially more titles. The quality of each formats titles is a matter of opinion.

As I've said before in other threads - I lean tords Blu currently. But by all accounts I shouldn't be just "leaning" by now. It should be a knock out! It's BR's war to lose. With all these supposed "advantages" of BR - the fact that they haven't really beating the living crap out of HD DVD (except in the category of marketing spin and dime a dozen blog experts )- makes me wonder if BR will actually prevail after all. It more than likely all just means the market is very soft on the HD format in general - and the real war has yet to begin. If HD DVD wants me to lean tords them they need to get those 51GB discs out and start offering more titles with lossless sound. There's been a number of times I've chosen HD DVD release over BR ones based on reviews mind you, so I realize it's not just all about hypothetical specs on a piece of paper. and I'm also not one of those "special people" counting bitrates instead of watching the movie.

There are apparently ten times more XBox's than PS3s (or something like that). It seems to me that a good strategy would be for every 5 HD-DVD titles purchased, you get a free XBox HD-DVD add-on (max of one per machine). That could overnight add millions of drives, but more importantly, it will allow people to experience first-hand how good movies can look.

Just because Ps3 owners aren't going out in droves to buy BR titles - doesn't mean they won't at some point.

Dildonator, it's not hard to imagine that once the AAA game titles start coming out that most PS3 owners will start using their machine for it's main purpose, which is to play games.

Dildonator, it's not hard to imagine that once the AAA game titles start coming out that most PS3 owners will start using their machine for it's main purpose, which is to play games.
;/

Its hard to imagine that people who are buying movies now and who like movies in general will stop buying just because they have games too.

;/

Its hard to imagine that people who are buying movies now and who like movies in general will stop buying just because they have games too.

I'm lost...

What does this have to do with the original post???

I'm lost...

What does this have to do with the original post???

It had to do with the previous post.

It had to do with the previous post.

Oh, okay...

If you back out the PS3 units (and most of those folks aren't buying movies, they're buying games - numerous reports support that fact), there's actually a 325,000 to 168,000 lead in the number of HD DVD players over Blu Ray. PS3's are a non-factor in terms of movie purchasers.You've posted this in more than one thread and given your slick math to come up with an over 1.9:1 player advantage for HD DVD, you should be able to explain why HD DVD hasn't won a single week by Nielsen numbers for software sales this year and the reports so far this year have been:
Day Week YTD SI
01/07 63.3/36.7 63.3/36.7 41.2/58.8
01/14 68.2/31.8 65.7/34.3 43.2/56.8
01/21 67.8/32.2 66.4/33.6 45.1/54.9
01/28 68.8/31.2 67.0/33.0 46.7/53.3
02/04 69.0/31.0 67.4/32.6 48.1/51.9
02/11 69.6/30.4 67.7/32.3 49.3/50.7
02/18 65.0/35.0 67.4/32.6 50.3/49.7
02/25 68.5/31.5 67.4/32.6 51.5/48.5
03/04 65.7/34.3 67.2/32.8 52.2/47.8
03/11 68.7/31.3 67.9/32.1 52.8/47.2
03/18 81.7/18.3 69.2/30.8 54.3/45.7
03/25 n/a 70.4/29.6 55.6/44.4
04/01 n/a 69.9/30.1 56.2/43.8
04/08 62.4/37.6 69.4/30.6 56.4/43.6
04/15 61/39 69/31 57/43
04/22 52/48 68/32 57/43
04/29 71/29 68/32 58/42
05/06 60/40 68/32 57/43
05/13 62/38 68/32 57/43
05/20 58/42 67/33 57/43
05/27 69/31 67/33 58/42
06/03 61/39 67/33 59/41
06/10 66/34 67/33 59/41
06/17 64/36 67/33 59/41
06/24 70/30 67/33 59/41
Does Blu-ray have some huge attach rate advantage that makes it so that when they have a little more than half as many players as the other side (by your count), they outsell HD DVD for discs by over 2:1 for 2007 so far? Or is the PS3 a factor in terms of movie purchasers, despite your claim that it isn't?

--Darin

;/

Its hard to imagine that people who are buying movies now and who like movies in general will stop buying just because they have games too.

On the contrary mate, it is very easy to imagine when another format turns out to be superior and cheaper :-P

There are apparently ten times more XBox's than PS3s (or something like that). It seems to me that a good strategy would be for every 5 HD-DVD titles purchased, you get a free XBox HD-DVD add-on (max of one per machine). That could overnight add millions of drives, but more importantly, it will allow people to experience first-hand how good movies can look.So true - Microsoft and Toshiba could win this war sooooo easily! I guess they just want Sony to *think* they have a half a chance ;-)

Sony Rulz, gotta have 50 gigs, ruler of the universe...

HD DVD right now has 30Gb, 34Gb, 45Gb and 51Gb disc capacities...

Blu-ray currently has mainly 25Gb discs and the rest 50Gb.

So no size advantage for Blu-ray any more.


There is also talk of 1.5X firmware upgrade for HD DVD players - meaning the last (psychological) technological advantage that Blu-ray has (bandwidth) suddenly vaporizes :-)

So true - Microsoft and Toshiba could win this war sooooo easily! I guess they just want Sony to *think* they have a half a chance ;-)

That hilarious Bourke.

I admire your spirit.

I decided to go with HD DVD because of content. I went to Amazon.com and went through all the Blu Ray movies, then I went through all the HD DVD movies. I like more of the HD DVD movies by a 3 to 1 ratio.

I decided to go with HD DVD because of content.

And that is precisely the reason why anybody should choose a format, regardless of what it is.

Its hard to imagine that people who are buying movies now and who like movies in general will stop buying just because they have games too.

theforce6969, I'm just saying that I think most people that purchase a PS3 do so to play games (although I admit I bought nine to watch movies first, then for games). When the system drops in price, I think an even higher percentage of the purchases will be by gamers to play games than HD movies lovers to watch movies.

theforce6969, I'm just saying that I think most people that purchase a PS3 do so to play games (although I admit I bought nine to watch movies first, then for games). When the system drops in price, I think an even higher percentage of the purchases will be by gamers to play games than HD movies lovers to watch movies.

Don't you mean when Blu Ray players drop in price (rather than the gaming system)?

[QUOTE=Kram Sacul]Blu-ray, the communist Nazi format? :D

I know you're joking but that's quite a dichotomy.

That hilarious Bourke.

I admire your spirit.My Prophecy is fulfilled:

Microsoft and Amazon Enter the Movie Market :-) (http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/prnewswire/AQM05402072007-1.htm)


... just a couple of HD DVDs on the way kids...

'...1,000 feature-length independent films to Amazon...'

My Prophecy is fulfilled:

Microsoft and Amazon Enter the Movie Market :-) (http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/prnewswire/AQM05402072007-1.htm)


... just a couple of HD DVDs on the way kids...

'...1,000 feature-length independent films to Amazon...'
Wow, this is truly great news! :)

My Prophecy is fulfilled:

Microsoft and Amazon Enter the Movie Market :-) (http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/prnewswire/AQM05402072007-1.htm)


... just a couple of HD DVDs on the way kids...

'...1,000 feature-length independent films to Amazon...'

Your timing is impeccable!

My Prophecy is fulfilled:

Microsoft and Amazon Enter the Movie Market :-) (http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/prnewswire/AQM05402072007-1.htm)


... just a couple of HD DVDs on the way kids...

'...1,000 feature-length independent films to Amazon...'


Indie films???

The words Big and Whoop come to mind :cool:

Indie films???

The words Big and Whoop come to mind :cool:


I tend to think more along the lines of Reservoir Dogs and Slacker, but to each his own.

Yeah, and they got picked up by real studios (at least RD). Imagine all the crap that doesn't get picked up. :eek:

Indie films???

The words Big and Whoop come to mind :cool:

'Big Whoop'

You're sounding like PoTC - plagiarising the Monkey Island series :-P

Price.

As we all know, these hi def movies are nothing but digital files. Be they mpeg2, mpeg4, VC1, etc...it's all just files. HDDVD or BD discs are just a means of storage. You could store these same HD movies on floppy discs or jump drives if they had the capacity. Both technologies are pretty much identical. For me the definitive variable was simply cost. Yeah, no region coding etc are great, but I really don't care about that. Why pay twice as much for the same thing? Made no sense to me then, and still makes no sense now. If BD players suddenly become competitive with HDDVD on price, then studio support etc may sway me the other way. For now, that isn't the case.

Why HD DVD? Sony stacked the deck right from the beginning and HD DVD had the guts to take it on anyway! I admire that and the fact that it has been able to hold its own in both PQ and AQ when again BD has 40% more capacity - an amazing over achievement. I guess what really pisses me off about BD are its fanboys (not that HD DVD doesn't have its share) who love to rub in every success BD has as if it's the second coming - that's what makes me hesitate everytime I'm tempted to purchase a BD player, plus the fact I no longer enjoy most of the blockbuster type movies that BD produces on mass. I saw 300 (both BD and HD DVD) at the theatre and have no interest in seeing it on DVD, HD DVD or BD ever again!

The constant put down of HD DVD by the so called videophile elite and the distain they have for a format that has done absolutely amazing things with what it has to work with really seems unconscionable and keeps me rooting for HD DVD against all odds - and its because it hangs in there against all odds. Win or lose HD DVD has balls and I admire that!

Cheers,

Grant

The irony in all this is that Sony is doing business just like Microsoft does business. Both wanna control everything just on different fronts. Sony and Bluray/Studios is no different than MS with Windows/Software/3rd Part Software companies.


That said..i could care less who wins this so called war...All I wanna do is be able to watch the movies i like (i hardly ever even know which studio makes what) in HD without having to break the bank on new hardware.


DVD never had competition. It was clearly superior to VHS....Relatively quickly players were dirt cheap...DVD sales/rentals and consumers are reaping the benefits.

BR -vs HD-DVD.....no clear superior in terms of what we see and hear when sitting down to watch our favorite movie. Problem is it just costs way more than the mainstream public is willing to pay....thats due mainly to the competing formats.

Why HD DVD? Sony stacked the deck right from the beginning and HD DVD had the guts to take it on anyway! I admire that and the fact that it has been able to hold its own in both PQ and AQ when again BD has 40% more capacity - an amazing over achievement. I guess what really pisses me off about BD are its fanboys (not that HD DVD doesn't have its share) who love to rub in every success BD has as if it's the second coming - that's what makes me hesitate everytime I'm tempted to purchase a BD player, plus the fact I no longer enjoy most of the blockbuster type movies that BD produces on mass. I saw 300 (both BD and HD DVD) at the theatre and have no interest in seeing it on DVD, HD DVD or BD ever again!

The constant put down of HD DVD by the so called videophile elite and the distain they have for a format that has done absolutely amazing things with what it has to work with really seems unconscionable and keeps me rooting for HD DVD against all odds - and its because it hangs in there against all odds. Win or lose HD DVD has balls and I admire that!

Cheers,

Grant

I couldn't agree with you more. Great post.

BR -vs HD-DVD.....no clear superior in terms of what we see and hear when sitting down to watch our favorite movie. Problem is it just costs way more than the mainstream public is willing to pay....thats due mainly to the competing formats.

Er... what? You really believe we would see players as cheap as they are now if there were no format war?

Problem is it just costs way more than the mainstream public is willing to pay....thats due mainly to the competing formats.

Hmmm...I bought a second generation DVD Player (entry level) for $525 (~$670 in today's dollars) in 1998, I bought a second generation HD DVD player (entry level) in 2007 for $250.

Not sure how these prices haven't fallen quicker than DVD player prices. Actually, I had a DVD player for 5 years before some of my family members had one. I just gave my grandmother her first player back in October 2006 :)

The competition has made it less expensive for early adapters and should make the pricing for everyone else fall faster than DVD players did.

Indie films???

The words Big and Whoop come to mind :cool:


Dynomite! Napolean Dynomite...

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/prnewswire/AQM05402072007-1.htm

Today I took the plunge, I pre-ordered two combos (300 and hot fuzz). For me it came down to the much decried combos. If there's a problem, I'll just exchange them, or return them easily. The players are cheaper, all have good up conversion of SD DVDs, all the Toshibas are spec'ed out (aside from 1080p/24, but I have a 720 tv so not a huge deal breaker for me), and with the combos I effectively get two copies of the same movie. The HD and the SD. Maybe I'm not an uber videophile, but as someone with a limited budget for gadgets and gizmoes, HD DVD seems like a really good option for me.

I can't justify over $300 for a DVD player, HD, BR or not. My wife would kill me =)

Er... what? You really believe we would see players as cheap as they are now if there were no format war?

Especially if it was a Blu Ray world...

Especially if it was a Blu Ray world...

Toshiba and Universal Pictures are Gods :-)

HD DVD is The Religion :-)

Blu-ray is Satanic Spawn :-P

And Sony is the The Anti-Christ!

No kidding, the vast majority of the arguements used by the blu-boys "We have 50 GB!!! Higher Bandwidth!"

The only thing that actually impresses me with Blu-Rays extra capacity and bandwidth is the ability to put multiple lossless/uncompressed tracks on a movie. Ghost Rider has PCM 16/48 and Dolby TrueHD 20/48. Beyond that Blu-Ray still has to impress me.

It wouldn't be an issue if a Lossless Compression was a requirement of all players. No good reason for multiple lossless tracks including alternate language versions since by dubbing it they have already introduced loss.

Toshiba are Gods :-)

HD DVD is The Religion :-)

Blu-ray is Satanic Spawn :-P

And Sony is the The Anti-Christ!

You might just be the most devoted HD DVD member of this forum...

...except....well for me of course! ;) j/k

Although I try to keep my posts much less personal as I know there are plenty of Blu Ray supporters eager to pounce given the opportunity. :)

Why pick HD DVD?

Because I'm too afraid to buy a Blu-ray player until I am absolutely sure it's going to be 100% compatible for all BD features in the future.

Also, the only really must-have movies that are BD exclusive for me right now are the Pirates films and Casino Royale to a lesser extent...and it's not worth buying a BD player just for those. Obviously something like Star Wars or the Alien films would change my mind immediately, but nothing like that is there yet.

Why pick HD DVD?

Because I'm too afraid to buy a Blu-ray player until I am absolutely sure it's going to be 100% compatible for all BD features in the future.

Also, the only really must-have movies that are BD exclusive for me right now are the Pirates films and Casino Royale to a lesser extent...and it's not worth buying a BD player just for those. Obviously something like Star Wars or the Alien films would change my mind immediately, but nothing like that is there yet.

Aliens on Blu Ray... Now that would be sad! Let's hope Fox doesn't do that anytime soon... unless they go neutral ;)

Why pick HD DVD?

Because I'm too afraid to buy a Blu-ray player until I am absolutely sure it's going to be 100% compatible for all BD features in the future.

Also, the only really must-have movies that are BD exclusive for me right now are the Pirates films and Casino Royale to a lesser extent...and it's not worth buying a BD player just for those. Obviously something like Star Wars or the Alien films would change my mind immediately, but nothing like that is there yet.

I thought firmware updates would take care of the upcoming changes for existing Blu Ray player owners?

I thought firmware updates would take care of the upcoming changes for existing Blu Ray player owners?That depends what you mean by 'upcoming'!

You see the BDA has yet to finalize the Blu-ray Disc specifications - what is currently on the drawing board are new hardware requirements to have:

1. Minimum 256Mb solid state memory (most current players do not meet this requirement)

2. A second decoder chip to allow full Picture-in-Picture (full screen switching between two streams - so it has to decode both streams to the full 1080 resolution).


No firmware update is going to help anyone out there!

The end of 2007 (Xmas) is when everyone will find out if they have a USD$500 paperweight on their hands :-P


... now HD DVD owners on the other hand can sleep easy at night - our format's hardware specs are fully specified :-)

The end of 2007 (Xmas) is when everyone will find out if they have a USD$500 paperweight on their hands :-P


I hope that was a tongue in cheek comment. We all know that these players will continue to play the movie, but maybe not the extras. From personal experience I might watch some "behind the scenes" footage, but I have never watched in PIP on my HD DVD's or any commentary tracks on any of my media. So to most, they will still be able to play movies so they will be happy.

Having no access to something I paid for because of a player's limitations would kind of torque me off.....but then again, if BD has their way you won't own anything but the disc is was pressed on...not the movie or any of the special features.

... now HD DVD owners on the other hand can sleep easy at night - our format's hardware specs are fully specified :-)With that same HD PiP as an optional feature that it looks like no current HD DVD players support. If an HD DVD disc includes that feature in the future, then at least the Toshiba players look like they will not be able to decode the 2nd HD stream and I personally doubt the XBOX360 has enough power to handle that as well as a high bitrate AVC/MPEG4 decode of the main stream.

--Darin

With that same HD PiP as an optional feature that it looks like no current HD DVD players support. If an HD DVD disc includes that feature in the future, then at least the Toshiba players look like they will not be able to decode the 2nd HD stream and I personally doubt the XBOX360 has enough power to handle that as well as a high bitrate AVC/MPEG4 decode of the main stream.

--Darin

Most BD owners have dismissed interactivity features of any kind as "worthless". Personally having some kind of second hardware decoder for a 2nd stream as well as mandatory ethernet, onboard storage for downloads, etc, is far more important to me (and, I suspect many other enthusiasts) than the hollow promise of 1080p PiP that the BD fans are now going on and on about.

Lets see;

Lots of cool downloadable material for movies that I love as well as "extras" and "easter eggs" and possibly things I can't even think about... as well as the obligatory 480P PiP.

Or......

1080P PiP while still lagging far behind HD DVD on the interactivity thing.

Hmmm.

I personally doubt the XBOX360 has enough power to handle that as well as a high bitrate AVC/MPEG4 decode of the main stream.

--DarinSo what you just claimed is that a three-core (3.2GHz per core) CPU coupled with 512Mb DDR3 cannot handle the decoding of two 1080p video streams?

Show me one Blu-ray player with anywhere NEAR those specs!

That depends what you mean by 'upcoming'!

You see the BDA has yet to finalize the Blu-ray Disc specifications - what is currently on the drawing board are new hardware requirements to have:

1. Minimum 256Mb solid state memory (most current players do not meet this requirement)

2. A second decoder chip to allow full Picture-in-Picture (full screen switching between two streams - so it has to decode both streams to the full 1080 resolution).


No firmware update is going to help anyone out there!

The end of 2007 (Xmas) is when everyone will find ouit if they have a USD$500 paperweight on their hands :-P


... now HD DVD owners on the other hand can sleep easy at night - our format's hardware specs are fully specified :-)

I suspect that if new BD releases made to the after 10/31/2007 spec won't play on current BD players, that a class action lawsuit will come along with the first announcement of that happening.

I suspect that if new BD releases made to the after 10/31/2007 spec won't play on current BD players, that a class action lawsuit will come along with the first announcement of that happening.Prevention is better than cure... sueing the truck driver that hit you is little consolation when the better option was to avoid the truck in the first place?!

Sidetracked...
Just a bit :)

You've posted this in more than one thread and given your slick math to come up with an over 1.9:1 player advantage for HD DVD, you should be able to explain why HD DVD hasn't won a single week by Nielsen numbers for software sales this year and the reports so far this year have been:

[/code]Does Blu-ray have some huge attach rate advantage that makes it so that when they have a little more than half as many players as the other side (by your count), they outsell HD DVD for discs by over 2:1 for 2007 so far? Or is the PS3 a factor in terms of movie purchasers, despite your claim that it isn't?

--Darin
Sure...

The Nielson numbers are based on averaged distributor numbers of shipped disks, as opposed to actual sales. This is a frequent tactic of Sony used to make their results looked better than they really are...BD disks collecting dust on shelves are not sales. My brother and wife see the numbers of "stale sales" of BD returned disks sent back each week in 2 different regions...there are alot.

Without spending too much time on all this...I've seen the actual mid-June YTD regional and national sales numbers for Fry's, Best Buy, and the regional ones for Walmart - they paint a whole different picture than the Nielsen numbers - all in favor of HD DVD doing much better.

The other key distortion in the Nielsen numbers is that they do not yet eflect the 74,700 HD DVD player sales surge during the recent $100 price drop, which also spawned several corresponding surges in HD DVD disk sales, especially at BB and Amazon. The Amazon rankings are posted on their site and updated hourly.

At the end of the day, it boils down to who's numbers do you want to buy into (pun intended) - I look at actual sales, as opposed to distributor averages, shipped units, or estimates. That said....there is no disputing the fact that with a 80% to 20% theoretical hardware install based advantage in BD players/drives out there....the BD disk sales are no where near those ration...meaning HD DVD outsells Blu Ray per unit.
Prevention is better than cure... sueing the truck driver that hit you is little consolation when the better option was to avoid the truck in the first place?!
:D well said!

...and back to the OP question - HD DVD, because of better hardware, better codecs, better quality media, and non-obsolesence of the current standard of BD by year end.

...and back to the OP question - HD DVD, because of better hardware, better codecs, better quality media, and non-obsolesence of the current standard of BD by year end.

And even more importantly, because the internet helps spread these facts.

You see the biggest difference between this and previous format wars is in fact the internet. Consumers no longer have to trust propaganda (read: advertisements and paid journalists) nor must they trust dodgy sales staff at major retailers!

Just think if that sales staff member actually did know anything useful - then they would not be working in that job!


No, instead it is quality sites such as this one that disseminate the real facts :-)

So what you just claimed is that a three-core (3.2GHz per core) CPU coupled with 512Mb DDR3 cannot handle the decoding of two 1080p video streams?

Show me one Blu-ray player with anywhere NEAR those specs!

But.. but the Cell Processor! The one that isn't powerful enough to properly handle 360 ports which is why games on both consoles have an inferior frame rate on the PS3.

I'd be surprised if the PS3 and 360 were unable to handle two 1080p video streams.

Why HD DVD? Sony stacked the deck right from the beginning and HD DVD had the guts to take it on anyway! I admire that and the fact that it has been able to hold its own in both PQ and AQ when again BD has 40% more capacity - an amazing over achievement. I guess what really pisses me off about BD are its fanboys (not that HD DVD doesn't have its share) who love to rub in every success BD has as if it's the second coming - that's what makes me hesitate everytime I'm tempted to purchase a BD player, plus the fact I no longer enjoy most of the blockbuster type movies that BD produces on mass. I saw 300 (both BD and HD DVD) at the theatre and have no interest in seeing it on DVD, HD DVD or BD ever again!

The constant put down of HD DVD by the so called videophile elite and the distain they have for a format that has done absolutely amazing things with what it has to work with really seems unconscionable and keeps me rooting for HD DVD against all odds - and its because it hangs in there against all odds. Win or lose HD DVD has balls and I admire that!

Cheers,

Grant

Great post

But.. but the Cell Processor! The one that isn't powerful enough to properly handle 360 ports which is why games on both consoles have an inferior frame rate on the PS3.


Well to be fair to them - Sony have done a better job designing it as a games console than as a HD video player!

As yet (touch wood) their consoles don't have metal fatigue issues resulting in a possible 100% failure rate ;-)


Sony are just lucky that Microsoft didn't use Toshiba to build their console - then we'd see what a real monopoly is!

If Toshiba had helped build the 360 there would not only be no product recall; there would also be an extra 10 million HD DVD players out there today!

I have heard too many people say that they a) can tell very little difference in HD vs SD and b) that they don't care about HD at all.

If SD DVD's can look "good enough" on their HDTV with a $100 upscaling player, I don't see why the average consumer would dish out $350-$1000 for an HD player. The prices really need to drop and fast...or we will all be SACD / DVD-A fans of the video world :(


I have heard to many people say this as well. But the real truth is, they are just re-assuring them selves that they in fect made a good purchase. Unless they have a $hit box display device, they are just feeding you a line of crap.

Craig

Let me first say that I love HD-DVD.
I am rooting for an HD-DVD victory.
Politics aside, war is war and Sony is playing for keeps on this one.
Toshiba will not win this one by word of mouth alone. I think they are finding this out… FINALLY!!! The big question is… is it to late??
They need to take a more aggressive Blue Ray type stance with a take no prisoners marketing approach. I mean, how long has this war been going and my Best Buy finally put up an HD-DVD end-cap about one week ago. HELLO!!! Toshiba’s approach seems to have relied too much on word of mouth. Example… that ineffective pathetic bus they had running around the country side.
I am not saying use the type of force tactics Sony is using. But rather a more aggressive educational marketing campaign. Most people don’t spend the hours on end most on this site put into reading and learning about A/V products. They simply walk into a place like Best Buy and one of the first things they hear from the BB clerk before he rays his un educated potential consumer is, “I am not on commission.”
Therefore the customer takes anything the BB clerk spews as gospel. Up until very recently, that gospel has been, HD-DVD is the second coming of Satan. After all, why would the BB clerk steer me wrong as a customer? He is not on any commission… what does he care if I buy BD or HD-DVD… right?
Most people don’t realize that high traffic areas where end-caps are placed are purchased by the manufacturer.
HD-DVD is a great product. The players are superior. They are cheaper. There is no difference in HD video quality between the two formats. The disc space advantage is really a non issue and nothing more than marketing propaganda.
Actually, the movie studio advantage is turning more and more into a myth as well because if you want a movie bad enough, you can buy it overseas. FOX and Disney have not put out anything that makes me want to say… I want that, I am getting Blue Ray.
FOX and Disney are far to paranoid to release anything worthwhile on an HD format.
When Casino Royal was released I was on the verge of considering BD. My plan was to buy Mr. and Mrs. Smith and Casino Royal with my first Blue Ray player.
But then M&M Smith was cancelled for its release in the US. Big surprise there… so I held off my BD purchase.
Now as most of you know, Mr. and Mrs. Smith is available overseas on HD-DVD and Blue Ray owners who were promised a title are left watching HD-DVD owners enjoy a movie that was supposed to be exclusive to the BD- format only. Now that is funny. :D :D :D

Craig

PREFACE

I see many people on both sides of the fence continuing what seems to be an neverending debate about which is the better format, all to no avail. There is no winning that debate and if we could all, if only for a moment, be totally impartial, we'd acknowledge that both formats have their own strengths and weakness and to which side one leans is only a matter of how they rank each formats respective qualities. So please, let's put that debate aside for the time being - at least in this thread. We've all seen enough threads devoted to pitting one format against the other based on their qualities.

Having said that, it's very seldom that I see anyone point out the following facts which to me (in light of the similarity of what the two formats offer) are fundamental to making the decision of which of the two formats to back - if either at all at this stage.

It's a long post, but I can assure you that if you continue to read, it will be clear as to why HD DVD still reigns as the most worthy and logical HD choice.

SONY - FRIEND OR FOE?

Sony did their homework on this one people. Where several of their technologies continued to fail to be accepted as the standard (BetaMax, MiniDisc, etc) perhaps they figured they should just use slight of hand. I mean if I can only buy Casino Royale in HD on Blu Ray, then maybe I need to buy a Blu Ray player, right? (By the way, the Sony product placements in that James Bond movie were downright shameless). Their ownership and control of Studio catalogues is a bad thing for BOTH HD DVD supporters AND Blu Ray supporters. To make matters worse, they've saddled Blu Ray with region coding limiting our (or those who choose Blu Ray) choice of titles to those available in North America.

The stout studio support that Blu Ray garners is no mystery. Some of the exclusive major studio support that Blu Ray enjoys are from the very studios which Sony owns and controls. They include: Sony Pictures - formerly Columbia Pictures and Tristar Pictures; and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer (MGM). Let's not forget Lionsgate, which they did have a stake in at one point (can anyone say politics?).


TOSHIBA

Too many HD DVD supporters are quick to assign blame to Toshiba for the current state of affairs and advocate marketing ploys that would encompass force. Whether be it forcing consumers to buy HD DVD because they want DVD and they only become available in a combo format or otherwise. This is unfair, especially if would mean that it would happen at the expense of the consumer - which it most certainly would. People who don't have financial means or interest to enter the HD world just yet shouldn't be forced to do so. Further HD DVDs reach, but not at the expense of a consumers ability to be fiscally responsible.

Toshiba, thus far, has not played dirty - or at least not to the degree in which Sony and their copatriots have. I wouldn't mind if it stayed that way, hopefully not at the expense of the HD DVD format faltering. In fact in my opinion Toshiba has made decisions that place more power in our hands only to the detriment of their format. Whether this was by design or not is irrelevant. Lets not forget that they provided us with a comprable and more affordable option.

SO, NOW WHAT?

We're all familiar with the adage, cash is king. This is no exception. The fact that Blu Ray hardware is still relatively more costly despite the fact that they are competing with HD DVD makes me wonder what prices would be like if Sony succeeded in it's quest and this was a Blu Ray world with them owning the rights to not only the technology but ALSO so many of the movies you'd buy to play in them. Sony is not exactly renown for it's competitve pricing policies. That's very telling of what we'd be in for.

We all owe it to ourselves to ensure that Sony does not end up being the primary mainstream HD content/hardware provider by supporting HD DVD. The hardware is cheaper and currently, software is nearly as good if not just as good. With multi-layer HD DVDs in the horizon, there is a very good chance that it will continue to be just as capable as the Blu Ray Disc.

In the meantime, lets also hope that Universal remains steadfast in it's commitment to releasing it's catalogue in the HD DVD format. I think if Universal were to change its backing, we'd all be in for a rude awakening and that HD DVD might just be the BetaMax of this decade - in North America at least.

CONCLUDING THOUGHTS

I don't hate Sony. In fact my home is littered with devices which they manufactured. Even at the onset of the HD dispute, I must admit, I was more inclined to go with Blu Ray. In hindsight, it was probably due to ignorance and my own personal predispositions. Needless to say, following what I've learned about this format war, I have had a major shift in attitude as to whether Sony is even deserving of the right to win our support.

Notwithstanding that, it would have been nice if Sony and Toshiba succeeded on the merits of what they offered rather than the ability to force consumers who want to watch an HD title to buy into their technology. Ideally, these companies would have agreed on ONE format and then even more choice would be available to us. But in keeping with the theme of all or nothing, Sony would never concede to such an sitution unless it was "their" technology. It's a moot point. We are where we are. But Sony, going back to 2003, anticipated this and made sure that if consumers didn't want their technology, but wanted their titles, they'd have no other option. Their systematic investments did just that. The technology/format war should be based on several factors none of which include the ability of one party to control access to content and the abilty of the consumer to buy the software, or lack thereof.



Not long ago a friend of mine who owns both Blu Ray and HD DVD players/titles said "You really want Toshiba to win this format war, don't you?" My reply was, "That's not how I'd put it.....I'd say I want all of us [I]to win".


*****

"How well would Blu Ray be doing today if Sony didn't have a stake in the studios and control their ability to release their content in both formats while still being the much more expensive option as far as hardware is concerned."

Just a friendly "reminder" of where this thread started. :D

To answer the title of the thread - because the movies it plays are more to my liking than the other option. Period, end of sentence.

There isn't anyone here that won't pick up a cheap dual format player when it becomes available.

Both HD and BR are quality products.

MEC2

To answer the title of the thread - because the movies it plays are more to my liking than the other option. Period, end of sentence.

There isn't anyone here that won't pick up a cheap dual format player when it becomes available.

Both HD and BR are quality products.

MEC2

Doesn't anyone read the initial thread before posting anymore? Even part of it?? :eek:

The title is rhetorical...

To answer the title of the thread - because the movies it plays are more to my liking than the other option. Period, end of sentence.

There isn't anyone here that won't pick up a cheap dual format player when it becomes available.

Both HD and BR are quality products.

MEC2

That will be a while.
It is still cheaper to buy an A2 ($249) and a Sony 300 ($450 - $500) than to get the LG combo ($1100)
When dual players hit $250, you will see these formats really start to penetrate the market. The way it looks right now, that will be about three years or longer.

Craig

Well to be fair to them - Sony have done a better job designing it as a games console than as a HD video player!

As yet (touch wood) their consoles don't have metal fatigue issues resulting in a possible 100% failure rate ;-)


Sony are just lucky that Microsoft didn't use Toshiba to build their console - then we'd see what a real monopoly is!

If Toshiba had helped build the 360 there would not only be no product recall; there would also be an extra 10 million HD DVD players out there today!

Yeah Microsoft has to get it's game together and fix the 360 problems. Hopefully the new 65 nm chipset will be available for the 360 in time for Halo 3.

And even more importantly, because the internet helps spread these facts.
...
No, instead it is quality sites such as this one that disseminate the real facts :-)

I'm with you on this but obviously you haven't visited the Blu Ray forum. ;) It amazes me how many people are so vigilant in their support for Blu Ray given the facts I present in the first post to this tread.

To each his own I guess...

I'm with you on this but obviously you haven't visited the Blu Ray forum. ;) It amazes me how many people are so vigilant in their support for Blu Ray given the fact I present in the first post to this tread.

To each his own I guess...

From the BD point of view, they have made a much larger investment in BD hardware than most of us have made in HD hardware. If you spent $600-$1000 on 1st gen BD hardware you probably wouldn't want to see the format tank either.

From the BD point of view, they have made a much larger investment in BD hardware than most of us have made in HD hardware. If you spent $600-$1000 on 1st gen BD hardware you probably wouldn't want to see the format tank either.

I suppose that's very true indeed.

Sure...

The Nielson numbers are based on averaged distributor numbers of shipped disks, as opposed to actual sales. This is a frequent tactic of Sony used to make their results looked better than they really are...BD disks collecting dust on shelves are not sales. My brother and wife see the numbers of "stale sales" of BD returned disks sent back each week in 2 different regions...there are alot.

Without spending too much time on all this...I've seen the actual mid-June YTD regional and national sales numbers for Fry's, Best Buy, and the regional ones for Walmart - they paint a whole different picture than the Nielsen numbers - all in favor of HD DVD doing much better.

The other key distortion in the Nielsen numbers is that they do not yet eflect the 74,700 HD DVD player sales surge during the recent $100 price drop, which also spawned several corresponding surges in HD DVD disk sales, especially at BB and Amazon. The Amazon rankings are posted on their site and updated hourly.

At the end of the day, it boils down to who's numbers do you want to buy into (pun intended) - I look at actual sales, as opposed to distributor averages, shipped units, or estimates. That said....there is no disputing the fact that with a 80% to 20% theoretical hardware install based advantage in BD players/drives out there....the BD disk sales are no where near those ration...meaning HD DVD outsells Blu Ray per unit.

:D well said!

...and back to the OP question - HD DVD, because of better hardware, better codecs, better quality media, and non-obsolesence of the current standard of BD by year end.

It would be great if you could provide more information about your sources and exact numbers.

If true, however, I'm wondering what the response is from Darin2p as well as other folks who have been tracking the nielsen numbers over the past six months and have informed us all that HD DVD is dead.

So what you just claimed is that a three-core (3.2GHz per core) CPU coupled with 512Mb DDR3 cannot handle the decoding of two 1080p video streams?Again, what I said was:
I personally doubt the XBOX360 has enough power to handle that as well as a high bitrate AVC/MPEG4 decode of the main stream.and I do. Many PCs with pretty powerful chips struggle with one high bitrate AVC/MPEG4 decode. The XBOX360 might not have any problem with two MPEG2 1080p streams, but I specifically mentioned AVC/MPEG4.
Show me one Blu-ray player with anywhere NEAR those specs!The PS3. I doubt any other current Blu-ray players will be able to do it, but there will be some coming with dedicated chips (like from Sigma) for this kind of thing.
The Nielson numbers are based on averaged distributor numbers of shipped disks, as opposed to actual sales.I think you don't know what you are talking about on this subject and made that up.

--Darin

But.. but the Cell Processor! The one that isn't powerful enough to properly handle 360 ports which is why games on both consoles have an inferior frame rate on the PS3.

I'd be surprised if the PS3 and 360 were unable to handle two 1080p video streams.

What does framerate in a game have to do with video decoding performance?

As for being able to decode 2 1080p streams simultaneously....

Interview with SCE developers with comments regarding H.264 decoding performance: (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2006/1130/mobile358.htm)

H.264 decoding itself was not very difficult for Cell with moderate optimization and they could play a movie in realtime at the first try unlike very difficult SACD optimization. However, because they began the development without knowing the final Blu-ray standard, they set the goal very high for decoding 2 full HD H.264 streams at 40Mbps simultaneously. Besides the clockspeed of the devkit was lower than the final product which made the development difficult. The current decoder can decode full HD H.264 with 3 SPEs.
An SCE developer recommends trying 1.5x fast-forward playback in the PS3 BD player to see the power of Cell. When it's connected to a display via 1080/60p, it becomes very smooth as Cell has an enough margin for video decoding. In 1.5x fast-forward playback it decodes all frames then inserts them into 60fps with sped up audio.

Post by Shaheen Gandhi, developer on 360 platform team: (http://blogs.msdn.com/xboxteam/archive/2006/11/03/emergence-day.aspx)

All 6 of Xbox 360's hardware threads are hard at work while playing back an HD DVD. At the moment, the player software pushes Xbox 360 harder than any other (save, perhaps, Gears of War during some particularly busy parts of the game).

Looks like PS3 can do 2 1080p streams, 360 cannot.

What does framerate in a game have to do with video decoding performance?

As for being able to decode 2 1080p streams simultaneously....

Interview with SCE developers with comments regarding H.264 decoding performance: (http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2006/1130/mobile358.htm)




Post by Shaheen Gandhi, developer on 360 platform team: (http://blogs.msdn.com/xboxteam/archive/2006/11/03/emergence-day.aspx)



Looks like PS3 can do 2 1080p streams, 360 cannot.


QFT... What's annoying about this argument is all the damn emotion and BS tied in the war...

and I am sorry... I am format neutral, have argued on both sides of this debate, but honestly... don't make stuff up without researching or knowing... HD DVD zealots I am talking to you specifically. ... it just makes you look stupid, every single time. Sorry, but i have to call a spade a spade here.

Sure...

The Nielson numbers are based on averaged distributor numbers of shipped disks, as opposed to actual sales. This is a frequent tactic of Sony used to make their results looked better than they really are...BD disks collecting dust on shelves are not sales. My brother and wife see the numbers of "stale sales" of BD returned disks sent back each week in 2 different regions...there are alot.

Without spending too much time on all this...I've seen the actual mid-June YTD regional and national sales numbers for Fry's, Best Buy, and the regional ones for Walmart - they paint a whole different picture than the Nielsen numbers - all in favor of HD DVD doing much better.

The other key distortion in the Nielsen numbers is that they do not yet eflect the 74,700 HD DVD player sales surge during the recent $100 price drop, which also spawned several corresponding surges in HD DVD disk sales, especially at BB and Amazon. The Amazon rankings are posted on their site and updated hourly.

It really is very very sad when to try to help your side of an argument people resort to just blatently making random things out. The sadest part is when some one comes along and shows some proof and makes that person look like a compleate and utter moron.

http://www.videoscan.com/about.html

"VideoScan and ACNielsen (a partnership since January 2000, and sister companies under the VNU banner since 2001) seamlessly integrate point-of-sale (POS) data collected by both companies to provide a comprehensive view of the VHS and DVD sell-through business."

"Sell-through POS (consumer purchase) sales data are collected weekly from traditional channels of video distribution including mass merchants, audio/video and video specialty retailers, electronics outlets, grocery stores, drug stores, and some Internet sites. Nielsen VideoScan maintains this weekly POS data in one of the largest databases of VHS and DVD products in the country. Data is collected on more than 40,000 VHS items and 12,000 DVD items. Virtually every UPC code in sell-through release since 1993 can be found in our extensive database. Complete sales data in all retail channels are available as far back as January 1999 (however Wal*Mart data is included only through 7/28/01). Prior to January 1999, limited information is available in most channels going back to 1993. "

It really is very very sad when to try to help your side of an argument people resort to just blatently making random things out. The sadest part is when some one comes along and shows some proof and makes that person look like a compleate and utter moron.
What's pathetic is that a "new member" (aka undercover BD fan) has to resort to naming calling to justify their point when they are plain wrong. :rolleyes:

Fact is...Nielsen claims to use "actual sales numbers" when that's not the fact. Videoscan only represents only about 45% of the media distribution market (Nielsen's partner).

One of the larger Eastern U.S. video media distributors on their reporting source list happens to be a close friend, and he indicated that he simply gets a call to ask him his numbers - nothing exact or "factual" about it - it's his best guess at that time or what he recalls. His territory represents the distribution of both HD DVD and Blu ray to a substantial number of major retailer customers in 9 Eastern U.S. states.

His monthly inventory does not coincide with the survey date, so the numbers may or may not be accurate. He stated that they don't have the resources to even do inventory but once per month, so his interim reported numbers are estimates at best - hardly scientific or "actual". In addition, he indicated that those 'actual" numbers he is asked for never include all the returns he sends back for his Blu ray inventories (and there are plenty for this region).

I also have direct personal contacts with 1 big-box retailer regional manager and 2 competing large area retail electronic stores - all featuring both HD DVD and Blu Ray. All 3 have shared the viewing of YTD and quarterly reports on actual sales, returns, and defective media. Two of the 3 have very similar percentage sales numbers comparing HD DVD to Blu Ray.

So like I said before....numbers can say whatever you want to hear if you so choose. But don't confuse so-called self-serving "facts" with conjecture. I suspect neither Sony nor anyone else is going to report that "BD sales are well below what they should be for the current size of the hardware install base".

I'm sure someone at Sony is smart enough to see that PS3 sales are nosediving this year, and so the price drop today had to be done. When both Wii and XBox outsell you, you better do something...all of that will have little effect on BD sales, as the PS3 install base has not significantly impacted BD sales anyway. It's a game machine for gamers, that happens to play BD movies...nice option, but nothing more. If that wasn't the case, BD sales would be 10X what they actually are.

Having seen the Sony technology debacles for Betamax and Mini-disc....I'm just waiting for the other shoe to fall on BD sales before the remaining studios take note and pull the plug on their "exclusivity".

It would be great if you could provide more information about your sources and exact numbers.

If true, however, I'm wondering what the response is from Darin2p as well as other folks who have been tracking the nielsen numbers over the past six months and have informed us all that HD DVD is dead.
See my previous post above.

You may be interested to learn that not only are the Nielsen numbers not a viable source of accurate information...they are not even real numbers. When you get "estimated sales numbers" (that don't even include large quantities of returns) from about 45% of the market...it's not anything more than conjecture.

From the BD point of view, they have made a much larger investment in BD hardware than most of us have made in HD hardware. If you spent $600-$1000 on 1st gen BD hardware you probably wouldn't want to see the format tank either.
Sony Betamax machines retailed for $2800 when they came out.....TANK TANK TANK.... :eek:

All this bickering is pointless!

There is no clear winner in HD right now. Sure, there are pros and cons for both camps, but the shift to HD will be a relatively slow one, considering the average consumer is pleased with DVD. Anyone claiming a format's victory right now is simply justifying their purchase.

Sure, Toshiba went region-free. While you may be happy about that, you should also understand that's why most studios sided with Blu-ray. Many studios don't want a movie that they released in Asia on HD-DVD to be playable in North America if the movie still hasn't opened here.

The truth is Sony is the studio's friend. They're saying all the right things to keep their loyalties. "Don't worry, you won't have to worry about region-free software and we're going to make it extremely hard for thieves to pirate your movies." Should Sony be criticized for protecting the studios interests? No.

Do we as consumers lose? Probably, if you want to watch an HD movie that is available in Australia when it still hasn't been released theatrically in North America or if you want to copy your HD movie to your iPod (or God forbid, copy it to make a buck or a torrent).

I bought the BDP-S1 and I'm really happy with its performance, but am I happy that I won't have access to Blu-ray Live? No, even though I'm not that big into watching a movie's special features.

I thought about purchasing the A20 to enjoy some HD-DVD exclusives, but I'm going to slow down my HD fetish until there are more titles that I am interested in purchasing or renting.

We already know that HD is fantastic, whether you have HD-DVD or Blu-ray (or both)! Instead of debating which one is dominating or whose marketing tactics you despise the most, we should be hoping that HD garnishes more interest from average consumers in order to guarantee its existence in this format.

One thing is certain here: There are going to be an awfully lot of bitter people if HD-DVD dies.

Sure, Toshiba went region-free. While you may be happy about that, you should also understand that's why most studios sided with Blu-ray. Many studios don't want a movie that they released in Asia on HD-DVD to be playable in North America if the movie still hasn't opened here.

Except for the fact that Warner and Paramount, BD's #2 and #4 studios don't care about region coding. Throw in Magnolia and the other small studios, and you have studios with over 1/3 of the BD output not giving a damn about region coding.

The truth is Sony is the studio's friend. They're saying all the right things to keep their loyalties. "Don't worry, you won't have to worry about region-free software and we're going to make it extremely hard for thieves to pirate your movies." Should Sony be criticized for protecting the studios interests? No.
Well duh! Being a studio, its kind of hard not to be a studio's friend. Plus, Sony Electronics is famous for having disdain for the consumer. Check out the 2005 SXRD threads if you don't believe me.

Do we as consumers lose? Probably, if you want to watch an HD movie that is available in Australia when it still hasn't been released theatrically in North America or if you want to copy your HD movie to your iPod (or God forbid, copy it to make a buck or a torrent).
Or, the disc isn't available yet in the US. I have 4 or 5 HD DVDs from Europe that aren't available here. Poland has an HD DVD of Mr and Mrs Smith-have you gotten your BD copy yet? The same is even more applicable for the rest of the world, where they can get US HD DVDs that aren't available where they live.

I bought the BDP-S1 and I'm really happy with its performance, but am I happy that I won't have access to Blu-ray Live? No, even though I'm not that big into watching a movie's special features.
Good for you. I just picked up a Sammy 1200. I ordered 4 movies, and I'll get the free 5 that I'll probably never watch, and that will be it as far as BD goes, for quite a while. The 1200 doesn't have the ability to do the upcoming features, assuming they aren't delayed yet again, but that is what my A1 is for.


We already know that HD is fantastic, whether you have HD-DVD or Blu-ray (or both)! Instead of debating which one is dominating or whose marketing tactics you despise the most, we should be hoping that HD garnishes more interest from average consumers in order to guarantee its existence in this format.
I absolutely agree.
Enjoy,
J

What's pathetic is that a "new member" (aka undercover BD fan) has to resort to naming calling to justify their point when they are plain wrong. :rolleyes:

Fact is...Nielsen claims to use "actual sales numbers" when that's not the fact. Videoscan only represents only about 45% of the media distribution market (Nielsen's partner).

One of the larger Eastern U.S. video media distributors on their reporting source list happens to be a close friend, and he indicated that he simply gets a call to ask him his numbers - nothing exact or "factual" about it - it's his best guess at that time or what he recalls. His territory represents the distribution of both HD DVD and Blu ray to a substantial number of major retailer customers in 9 Eastern U.S. states.

His monthly inventory does not coincide with the survey date, so the numbers may or may not be accurate. He stated that they don't have the resources to even do inventory but once per month, so his interim reported numbers are estimates at best - hardly scientific or "actual". In addition, he indicated that those 'actual" numbers he is asked for never include all the returns he sends back for his Blu ray inventories (and there are plenty for this region).

I also have direct personal contacts with 1 big-box retailer regional manager and 2 competing large area retail electronic stores - all featuring both HD DVD and Blu Ray. All 3 have shared the viewing of YTD and quarterly reports on actual sales, returns, and defective media. Two of the 3 have very similar percentage sales numbers comparing HD DVD to Blu Ray.

So like I said before....numbers can say whatever you want to hear if you so choose. But don't confuse so-called self-serving "facts" with conjecture. I suspect neither Sony nor anyone else is going to report that "BD sales are well below what they should be for the current size of the hardware install base".

I'm sure someone at Sony is smart enough to see that PS3 sales are nosediving this year, and so the price drop today had to be done. When both Wii and XBox outsell you, you better do something...all of that will have little effect on BD sales, as the PS3 install base has not significantly impacted BD sales anyway. It's a game machine for gamers, that happens to play BD movies...nice option, but nothing more. If that wasn't the case, BD sales would be 10X what they actually are.

Having seen the Sony technology debacles for Betamax and Mini-disc....I'm just waiting for the other shoe to fall on BD sales before the remaining studios take note and pull the plug on their "exclusivity".

While I cant say if you are who you are, as this is the internet, this is important info. You need to drive this point home in the Nielsen thread. There needs to be another side in there besides BD is trouncing the world.

There is no clear winner in HD right now. Sure, there are pros and cons for both camps, but the shift to HD will be a relatively slow one, considering the average consumer is pleased with DVD.

True.

Sure, Toshiba went region-free. While you may be happy about that, you should also understand that's why most studios sided with Blu-ray. Many studios don't want a movie that they released in Asia on HD-DVD to be playable in North America if the movie still hasn't opened here.

Let me just remind you that the studios you refer to above include those which Sony owns. The rationale for Blu Ray support by those studios stems from corporate ownership, nothing else.

The truth is Sony is the studio's friend. They're saying all the right things to keep their loyalties. "Don't worry, you won't have to worry about region-free software and we're going to make it extremely hard for thieves to pirate your movies." Should Sony be criticized for protecting the studios interests? No.

Sony should be criticized for infringing on our rights as consumers. Lest you think that they are the "studios" friend, again, they OWN many of those studios...


Do we as consumers lose? Probably...

My point exactly.

See my previous post above.

You may be interested to learn that not only are the Nielsen numbers not a viable source of accurate information...they are not even real numbers. When you get "estimated sales numbers" (that don't even include large quantities of returns) from about 45% of the market...it's not anything more than conjecture.

Can you post something that backs up your claim? Many people have been living and dying by those Nielsen numbers and it would be nice to have some real facts presented.

One thing is certain here: There are going to be an awfully lot of bitter people if HD-DVD dies.
There will be an awfully lot of bitter people if it doesn't die. Its already starting.
J

Can you post something that backs up your claim? Many people have been living and dying by those Nielsen numbers and it would be nice to have some real facts presented.
People can believe what they want to...and some do so blindly anyway. :rolleyes:

Based on knowing some key people in this industry, I took the initiative to get direct facts and validate them to make up my mind on what's really going on. Based on observation, its very clearly that not only is Sony inflating their numbers in several ways, they're also misrepresenting reality on their supposed successes by omitting information about returned BD media and defective BD media.

Nielsen probably has every intention of being a solid source of information, but they are only as good as their sources - but it's a classic garbage-in-garbage-out potential scenario. I'm sure they are well-meaning people, but I have seen firsthand that they are not reporting the "facts to bank your future on" as some BD fanboys clearly seem to think they are.

I realized a long time ago that when people spend alot of money on something, the last thing they want to hear is that they made the wrong decision (a car, a house, a boat, audio/video equipment, etc.).

Since it's easy (and requires basically no intelligence nor effort) to simply be led by whom you want to be led, let them go into the desert...it's not my job to hold their hands or spank them when their naughty. Adults can make up their own minds. To the others - they need to grow up. :eek:

I'm reminded of a situation in 2002 where Consumer Reports magazine rated a refrigerator # 1 one year, and the exact same model #14 in 2003 - the unit had NO changes whatsoeverr over those 2 model years, yet it went from the top model to one fo the worst the following year in the CR mag. I called CR and asked why, and was told that "the unit simply didn;t perform as well as last year" - even though nothing changed. About 6 months later, a small 1-paragraph "correction" announcement was published citing the "inadvertent error" in the rankings for that model. I know people who buy everything based on what Consumer Reports magazine tells them - not this buyer.

Having worked in the technology field for 20+ years, including the audio /video area, and also having invested 6 figures plus into audio / video equipment in my Home Theater and other locations, I've done months of extensive research from numerous sources (including users and industry insiders) when I need to make my buying decisions.

I would not expect anyone to make a decision based on my opinions nor that of any onther 1-2 sources. Others can and should do the same. :cool:

Having worked in the technology field for 20+ years, including the audio /video area, and also having invested 6 figures plus into audio / video equipment in my Home Theater and other locations, I've done months of extensive research from numerous sources (including users and industry insiders) when I need to make my buying decisions. :cool:

OK, so who's going to win: HD-DVD or Blu-ray?






Just kidding.......I couldn't resist. :)

Based on knowing some key people in this industry, I took the initiative to get direct facts and validate them to make up my mind on what's really going on. Based on observation, its very clearly that not only is Sony inflating their numbers in several ways, they're also misrepresenting reality on their supposed successes by omitting information about returned BD media and defective BD media.

You sound exactly like that guy who swore up and down that Lionsgate would go neutral at CES because he "knew people in the industry." All talk, and no substance. The sad thing is a lot of people believed him, and got their hopes up only to be disappointed afterwards.

You sound exactly like that guy who swore up and down that Lionsgate would go neutral at CES because he "knew people in the industry." All talk, and no substance. The sad thing is a lot of people believed him, and got their hopes up only to be disappointed afterwards.

Wreck give us a break! Go to the BD forum and watch a ton of BD only fans make out with Beatboy 24/7. How many times has he been wrong? More than I can remember, yet they still hang on his every word like he was Jesus Christ himself.

Now someone comes on here with some insider info you DONT like, you stick your fingers in your ear and yell BLAH BLAH BLAH not true ATTACK ATTACK.

Wreck give us a break! Go to the BD forum and watch a ton of BD only fans make out with Beatboy 24/7. How many times has he been wrong? More than I can remember, yet they still hang on his every word like he was Jesus Christ himself.
LOL :) :D :) :D
You sound exactly like that guy who swore up and down that Lionsgate would go neutral at CES because he "knew people in the industry." All talk, and no substance.
Blu Ray troller alert.... :eek: :eek: :eek:

Anyone who wants to forecast what the various studios are going to do in the future should apply now as a "chad counter" in Florida for the next election - they can use a set of great eyes... :D
OK, so who's going to win: HD-DVD or Blu-ray?
We, the consumer, in the end. :)

Early adopters of anything rarely "win" anything...they pay more for equipment and the privilege of debugging early versions of hardware / firmware, not to mention defective media - ask any Blu Ray owner. :D

Wreck give us a break! Go to the BD forum and watch a ton of BD only fans make out with Beatboy 24/7. How many times has he been wrong? More than I can remember, yet they still hang on his every word like he was Jesus Christ himself.

Now someone comes on here with some insider info you DONT like, you stick your fingers in your ear and yell BLAH BLAH BLAH not true ATTACK ATTACK.

You know, you're absolutely right about beatboy. I personally don't believe a word he says, FWIW.

Nielsen tracks POS data. Meaning, product actually SOLD to consumers. How do you dispute that? Do you think Nielsen is lying when they say they have tracked X copies of Casino Royale sold through their POS tracking system? NPD does the exact same thing when it tracks game consoles and software, yet no one ever disputes NPD?

You know, you're absolutely right about beatboy. I personally don't believe a word he says, FWIW.

Nielsen tracks POS data. Meaning, product actually SOLD to consumers. How do you dispute that? Do you think Nielsen is lying when they say they have tracked X copies of Casino Royale sold through their POS tracking system? NPD does the exact same thing when it tracks game consoles and software, yet no one ever disputes NPD?

The question is better asked of HDTVFAN, as he appears to be some kind of insider, and disputes that. If what he says is true, its disturbing, but not unexpected coming from the likes of the BDA.

You know, you're absolutely right about beatboy. I personally don't believe a word he says, FWIW.

Nielsen tracks POS data. Meaning, product actually SOLD to consumers. How do you dispute that? Do you think Nielsen is lying when they say they have tracked X copies of Casino Royale sold through their POS tracking system? NPD does the exact same thing when it tracks game consoles and software, yet no one ever disputes NPD?

Why are so many people getting hung up on Neilsen numbers. They are what they are. Right or wrong - it's what's being presented.

As far as the ongoing debate about this in THIS thread, I wish people would remind themselves of what the first post in this thread was. It's not about which format is selling more.

IMO it's about Sony's unscrupulous tactics that try to force the hand of consumers ALL THE WHILE still being the more costly HD hardware option. Period.

Nielsen tracks POS data. Meaning, product actually SOLD to consumers. How do you dispute that?
It is not all POS data - wrong. Some merchants in the Nielsen list do not have the POS scan devices used to record the data - I know that for fact from at least one large distributor...and for the umteeth time - no return data nor defect data is included - which is quite significant in BD's case.

Also, they rely on only data stored in one partner vendor's databases, which represents less than 1/2 the market.
Why are so many people getting hung up on Neilsen numbers. They are what they are. Right or wrong - it's what's being presented.

As far as the ongoing debate about this in THIS thread, I wish people would remind themselves of what the first post in this thread was. It's not about which format is selling more.

IMO it's about the Sony's unscrupulous tactics that try to force the hand of consumers ALL THE WHILE still being the more costly HD hardware option. Period.
AMEN brother....but you knew any thread with HD DVD and Blu Ray in the title would end up a fanboy debate....it always does. It's a shame that some folks just don't get it when it comes to the Sony Baloney. But I hear there will be a Blu Ray 12 step program coming soon.... :D

It is not all POS data - wrong. Some merchants in the Nielsen list do not have the POS scan devices used to record the data - I know that for fact from at least one large distributor...and for the umteeth time - no return data nor defect data is included - which is quite significant in BD's case. Also, they rely on only data stored in one partner vendor's databases, which represents less than 1/2 the market.

Half the market is a very good sample size. Let me ask you this, does your source track actual sales sold through customers through retailers that comprise more than half the market? If not, how can you be sure your data is better than Nielsen's?

You say return and defect rate for BD is significant. What exactly does that mean? As a percentage of total units sold, how many were defective? Are you talking about specific titles or just in general. What are the defect and return rates for hd dvd?

Half the market is a very good sample size. Let me ask you this, does your source track actual sales sold through customers through retailers that comprise more than half the market? If not, how can you be sure your data is better than Nielsen's?
The quantity as a % of market is perhaps 15% as opposed to 45% for Nielsen, but they are real numbers, net sales figures. I'll take those any day as reliable - and they validate that the 60-40% BD sales advantage comparisons Sony claims are bogus.

You say return and defect rate for BD is significant. What exactly does that mean? As a percentage of total units sold, how many were defective? Are you talking about specific titles or just in general. What are the defect and return rates for hd dvd?
The BD return rates, not just for defects but also for "dormant inventories" (aka dust collectors), are higher for BD than for HD DVD. I suspect these may vary regionally, as well as by retailer. In the case of the limited numbers I've seen BD returns (both for dormancy and defects) are higher than HD DVD. The point is, when these get up into the 5-10% range or more for certain titles, they cause the net sales to be significantly lower. Bottom line - the only real numbers are the net sales per title. Since the number of HD DVD and Blu Ray titles on the market will be about even as of August 15, that would be a great time for someone to provide actual net sales numbers going forward to see what's actually selling.

In the mean time, as several have suggested...its too early to determine any winners or losers overall in the format war (which didn't have to be a war int he first place if it wasn't for Sony's historically arrogant positions on new technology).

^^ why don't you post your interesting theories about how Nielsen data is not representative at all in the main Nielsen thread? I suspect my resolve to debate this with you is not as great as yours.

Sure...

The Nielson numbers are based on averaged distributor numbers of shipped disks, as opposed to actual sales. This is a frequent tactic of Sony used to make their results looked better than they really are...BD disks collecting dust on shelves are not sales.

Then again from Nielson's web site http://www.videoscan.com/about.html

"VideoScan and ACNielsen (a partnership since January 2000, and sister companies under the VNU banner since 2001) seamlessly integrate point-of-sale (POS) data collected by both companies to provide a comprehensive view of the VHS and DVD sell-through business."

"Sell-through POS (consumer purchase) sales data are collected weekly from traditional channels of video distribution including mass merchants, audio/video and video specialty retailers, electronics outlets, grocery stores, drug stores, and some Internet sites."

So lets get this straight HDTVFAN0001 Nielson has been lying to us right? they say the data they get is from POS but you Claim it's just shipped disk data eh. I'm sure all the companies, studios and news agencies that use Nielson would sure love for you to clue them into how they are paying for a service that Nielson is lying about. Thank god for your nameless sources to shed light on these lies Nielson has been spreading for years.....

Oh and sure is kind of weird how nearly every single HD disk that is on both formats is showing better numbers for Blu Ray on Nielson guess all the Neutral studios just ship more disks on Blu Ray for the fun of it eh...

So many more flaws in what your saying but really whats the point.

^^ why don't you post your interesting theories about how Nielsen data is not representative at all in the main Nielsen thread? I suspect my resolve to debate this with you is not as great as yours.
Debate...debate...debate... :D

Just today, I read an interesting piece in the August 2007 issue of Home Theater Magazine about the misinformation on High Def disk formats.

Interesting enough, despite the "resounding sales advantages" uttered (like a cow) by Sony over and over....the stats given in this publication indicate that BD just hit 1 Million overall BD disk sales, while HD DVD disk sales through June 15th are at 998,000 (yes just 2,000 behind). Given the hype and propaganda of the Blu Ray misinfo machine....they must be tinkling in their trousers to see that info published.

It's also nice to see the 4 pages of HD DVD advertising from Toshiba in the HT Mag issue compared to the 1-page ad from Sony, so I guess the marketing budgets are starting to kick in.

For those Blu Ray fanboys who need their information notarized to believe anything negative about the BD format...it's on page 22 in the Samsung dual-format piece. Read it and weep. ;)

I'm not surprised at this at all - anyone who looks at Amazon's sales numbers and rankings regularly can quickly see that despite a well-advertised 1.3 Million Blu Ray disk hardware user "advantage" (of which 1.1 Million are PS3 gamers), as compared to the measily meek 385,000 HD DVD install base at this time, the disk sales are almost even in numbers. The HD DVD versions of several titles are outselling the BD versions on Amazon. With a 3 to 1 or more BD potential player "advantage", selling on par with HD DVD is nothing shy of another huge Sony failure to this point. :eek:

Add in the faulty BD players everyone in the BD forums keep ranting about, the updated / new BD hardware requirements starting October 31 for all BD players (that will render some older units in deep do-do), and numerous defective BD titles launched and recalled last year....and the continued pattern of Sony mis-steps is clear.

BTW - If you want to check out this website...it shows the 57 to 50 HD DVD edge in announced new releases between now and October 2nd:

HD DVD and Blu Ray announced new releases (http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/releasedates.html)

With the new 70,000+ HD DVD players purchased during the 5 week "Toshiba $100 discount" period alone starting June 1st, there plenty of new buyers out there for those new HD DVD titles. Now that the $299 price is permanent, sales should only grow.

It's a shame that there had to be a High Def disk format war at all, but its a sham to think BD is winning at anything.

Then again from Nielson's web site http://www.videoscan.com/about.html

So lets get this straight HDTVFAN0001 Nielson has been lying to us right? they say the data they get is from POS but you Claim it's just shipped disk data eh.
What did you expect Nielsen would say about themselves on their website?...apparently you can fool some of the people some of the time with their BD data... :rolleyes:

Truth be told, I didn't say they were "lying". YOU used that term in your post. I simply stated they were misrepresenting the actual data. I have every reason to beleive they are good people with the best intentions - the only thing I raised into question was the execution of their process.

Unless they did so intentionally (which I also stated I doubted), there's no lying going on.......OK.......maybe from Sony....but otherwise no.... :D

What did you expect Nielsen would say about themselves on their website?...apparently you can fool some of the people some of the time with their BD data... :rolleyes:

Truth be told, I didn't say they were "lying". YOU used that term in your post. I simply stated they were misrepresenting the actual data. I have every reason to beleive they are good people with the best intentions - the only thing I raised into question was the execution of their process.

Unless they did so intentionally (which I also stated I doubted), there's no lying going on.......OK.......maybe from Sony....but otherwise no.... :D

You Said "The Nielson numbers are based on averaged distributor numbers of shipped disks, as opposed to actual sales."

Nielson said "Sell-through POS (consumer purchase) sales data are collected weekly from traditional channels of video distribution including mass merchants, audio/video and video specialty retailers, electronics outlets, grocery stores, drug stores, and some Internet sites."

One of you is lying guess it's up to people to decide which.

One of you is lying guess it's up to people to decide which.
You used the "L" word again..... :rolleyes: :D

I'm going right now to interrogate my local drug store and demand to see their HD DVD and BD sales reports for Nielsen... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :eek:

Decide what you will. Live long and prosper.

While you're doing all that, I'll go enjoy some more HD DVD viewing tonight.

The Nielson numbers are based on averaged distributor numbers of shipped disks, as opposed to actual sales.I think you would have more credibility on this issue if you hadn't earlier claimed:
PS3's are a non-factor in terms of movie purchasers.Even the most ardent HD DVD fans know that PS3s are definitely a factor in terms of movie purchasers. They may argue that if the PS3 has an attach rate that is 20% that of standalones that this means it is doing poorly, but I doubt there are many who truely believe the PS3s aren't a factor in terms of movie purchasers.

This is a frequent tactic of Sony used to make their results looked better than they really are...BD disks collecting dust on shelves are not sales. My brother and wife see the numbers of "stale sales" of BD returned disks sent back each week in 2 different regions...there are alot.and from http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10976433&&#post10976433:
There are some Blu Ray advocates posting here who use the same Sony propaganda technique of "BD announced sales" numbers, when they are in fact "units shipped" numbers - not the same thing. There are tons of BD returned by retailers that were collecting dust on shelves and never sold.Is it your claim that when Amazon stocked over 4000 units of Rocky Balboa on Blu-ray (according to their numbers), Nielsen counted those as over 4000 and when Amazon returned them or got rid of them to someone else (according to their stock numbers later) they were left as sales on Nielsen? If not, what is your claim with respect to this? Do purchases that Amazon makes from distributors count in the Nielsen numbers according to your claim?

How do you explain the HD DVD group claiming 1.5 million HD DVD discs sold last September or so, while by Nielsen the count was way lower (still haven't reached 1.5 million by Nielsen close to three-quarters of a year later from what I've seen)? If Nielsen was units shipped, why the discrepancy?
Just today, I read an interesting piece in the August 2007 issue of Home Theater Magazine about the misinformation on High Def disk formats.

Interesting enough, despite the "resounding sales advantages" uttered (like a cow) by Sony over and over....the stats given in this publication indicate that BD just hit 1 Million overall BD disk sales, while HD DVD disk sales through June 15th are at 998,000 (yes just 2,000 behind).Now that is propaganda (or just somebody who doesn't comprehend what was said). I have the original email from the marketing company from April 25th that the HD DVD group pays to send things out and even they didn't claim that HD DVD was only 2k behind. They spelled out that by combining sales data from Nielsen with data from 3 different companies they got to 998,059 for HD DVD and that was 2k shy of Blu-ray's announcement (which was not for exactly one million, like 1,000,000) likely because they knew it would be lying to claim they were only 2k behind in sales, since they could see numbers for both sides. And that was for April. June would be a different story for both sides.

From http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10970387#post10970387:
The number is actually closer to 56-44 in some retail locations...so the gap has closed and has some momentum.Since you claimed that it is closer to 56-44 in "some retail locations", care to tell us what some of those are?

Honestly, your posts on this subject look a lot like somebody who is making things up as they go along.

--Darin

I think you would have more credibility on this issue if you hadn't earlier claimed:
Honestly, your posts on this subject look a lot like somebody who is making things up as they go along.

--Darin
Who cares what the Blu Ray fanboys think...

I pointed out the specific page in the magazine that published the report numbers...the link to the other article on the releases...facts in your face, and still you can't see. How pathetic.

You Blu Ray fanboys so blind, obnoxious, and arrogant - even with the detailed locations of printed facts in multiple locations and specific links to websites.

Buy the magazine with your paper route money...learn to use your parent's PC to access the Internet... and read.

Maybe some day (I doubt it) you BD fanboys who constantly pollute the HD DVD threads here with your Sony-slanted-lies and propoganda, blatent distortions, and deliberate misquotes will be whining in your beer when Sony fails again and BD is dead. You're not worth the key clicks to respond to any more of your foolish lies and manipulative lies any further. I'm too happy enjoying a night of HD DVD anyway. Eat your heart out and best wishes. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Who cares what the Blu Ray fanboys think...

I pointed out the specific page in the magazine that published the report numbers...the link to the other article on the releases...facts in your face, and still you can't see. How pathetic.

You Blu Ray fanboys so blind, obnoxious, and arrogant - even with the detailed locations of printed facts in multiple locations and specific links to websites.

Buy the magazine with your paper route money...learn to use your parent's PC to access the Internet... and read.

Maybe some day (I doubt it) you BD fanboys who constantly pollute the HD DVD threads here with your Sony-slanted-lies and propoganda, blatent distortions, and deliberate misquotes will be whining in your beer when Sony fails again and BD is dead. You're not worth the key clicks to respond to any more of your foolish lies and manipulative lies any further. I'm too happy enjoying a night of HD DVD anyway. Eat your heart out and best wishes. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Allllllllllrighty then......next.

... blatent distortions ...Looks to me like that fits your:
The Nielson numbers are based on averaged distributor numbers of shipped disks, as opposed to actual sales.pretty well.

--Darin

I am an HD-A1 owner with about 25 HD-DVDs. I have been considering jumping in to Blu-ray, but I recently convinced myself to wait, since a) the 1.1 Blu-ray standard won’t even be finalized until later this year, and b) there are only a handful of Blu-ray exclusive titles in which I am currently interested.

In the end, I believe HD-DVD is indeed the more consumer friendly format. It has no region coding and less copy protection that Blu-ray. Aside from the whole legal issue of “backing-up” your HD-discs, I have read that potentially, a BD+ Blu-ray disc could refuse to play on a player that has been modified in some manner by its owner, and I find this deeply troubling. It is no wonder, though, why more studios exclusively support Blu-ray.

In the end, it baffles me why so many consumers are eager to embrace the format that the studios want you to have, as opposed to a less restrictive format that more greatly benefits the consumer. While more space per layer is certainly appealing, I personally don’t think it’s worth it if the studios insist on maintaining greater restrictive controls over the format.

To answer the OP question. Why choose Hd-dvd over bluray? First of all, why would you, unless you want a $200 paper weight, and a stack of discs that will go for a couple of bucks on ebay.

back under your bridge.
LOL :) :D :) :D :) :D

There's clearly alot of BD troll inbreeding going on under that bridge. :eek:

After spending about 2 hours yesterday just passing through the BD threads...I can see why they are migrating over here - there's lots of disgruntled BD folks over there, so I guess they need to go elsewhere to forward their lies and propoganda. ;)

Let them eat carp. :p

I am an HD-A1 owner with about 25 HD-DVDs. I have been considering jumping in to Blu-ray, but I recently convinced myself to wait, since a) the 1.1 Blu-ray standard won’t even be finalized until later this year, and b) there are only a handful of Blu-ray exclusive titles in which I am currently interested.

In the end, I believe HD-DVD is indeed the more consumer friendly format. It has no region coding and less copy protection that Blu-ray. Aside from the whole legal issue of “backing-up” your HD-discs, I have read that potentially, a BD+ Blu-ray disc could refuse to play on a player that has been modified in some manner by its owner, and I find this deeply troubling. It is no wonder, though, why more studios exclusively support Blu-ray.

In the end, it baffles me why so many consumers are eager to embrace the format that the studios want you to have, as opposed to a less restrictive format that more greatly benefits the consumer. While more space per layer is certainly appealing, I personally don’t think it’s worth it if the studios insist on maintaining greater restrictive controls over the format.

Excellent point. Might I add that it baffles me as to why 'so many' consumers are also willing to pay more for it.

LOL :) :D :) :D :) :D

There's clearly alot of BD troll inbreeding going on under that bridge. :eek:

After spending about 2 hours yesterday just passing through the BD threads...I can see why they are migrating over here - there's lots of disgruntled BD folks over there, so I guess they need to go elsewhere to forward their lies and propoganda. ;)

Let them eat carp. :p

Well I for one would be a pit peeved if I spend >$500 to buy hardware which is not spec'd yet too.

Well I for one would be a pit peeved if I spend >$500 to buy hardware which is not spec'd yet too.
Amen brother.

Just one of many reasons (we won't go through that all over again) of why BD sucks. :cool:

In the end, it baffles me why so many consumers are eager to embrace the format that the studios want you to have, as opposed to a less restrictive format that more greatly benefits the consumer. While more space per layer is certainly appealing, I personally don’t think it’s worth it if the studios insist on maintaining greater restrictive controls over the format.

I know I have never copied or imported a movie in my life, and have no real intention to do so. So you can imagine, these DRM issues mean jack squat to me.

I know I have never copied or imported a movie in my life, and have no real intention to do so. So you can imagine, these DRM issues mean jack squat to me.

That doesn't mean they have to mean nothing to you as well.

I know I have never copied or imported a movie in my life, and have no real intention to do so. So you can imagine, these DRM issues mean jack squat to me.

I haven't imported many titles before now that often either. Come to think of it, I haven't done a lot of things in the past which I may probably not do in the future.

But then, I refuse to put myself in a position where I can't choose all the while doing so at a greater financial expense.

That doesn't mean they have to mean nothing to you as well.

Oh I have my opinions on it. But quite simply, I don't think they're overstepping their boundaries, and certainly don't think it's enough to justify picking one format over the other.

Listen, I can understand it might mean something to some people, based on what they do, or some certain sort of idealism that I quite frankly don't share. But the simple truth is...99% of people just don't care. And I'm with them...this is just not something I take issue with, and I say that understanding what they're doing.

Oh I have my opinions on it. But quite simply, I don't think they're overstepping their boundaries, and certainly don't think it's enough to justify picking one format over the other.

I wonder how anyone, given what Sony has done to "lead" (to put it very mildly) consumers to their format while being more studio friendly format, can in good faith be so happy to proclaim their support of Sony/Blu Ray to of all people, the HD DVD supporter/fan. I am not saying HD DVD is all that and more. But I certainly wouldn't be looking to the HD DVD supporters in this forum to be very tolerant of any harsh critisim given the decisions I made if I were a Blu Ray supporter.

If you've decided that Blu Ray is right for you, so be it. My choice does not only hinge on which is "better". They are both very similar and have nearly the same potential. My choice is based on principle.

In the grand scheme of things it may not make much of a difference to the success or failure of HD DVD/Blu Ray - but I think it's a decision which to few people know enough about to make.

Amen brother.

Just one of many reasons (we won't go through that all over again) of why BD sucks. :cool:

FYI - Read the final updates at bottom of column

http://www.hometheaterblog.com/hometheater/2007/06/sony_bdps300_bl.html

In spite of that, I don't understand how anyone, knowing how Sony has behaved and what they have done to "lead" (to put it very mildly) consumers to their format, can in good faith be so happy to support them - and at greater cost no less. Some might say that Sony's behaviour is studio friendly (big surprise as they are one of those studios) rather than consumer friendly.

Quite rankly, I dont' see what Sony is doing that is so awful. They are leveraging everything they have to win...and last I checked, that's whaty ou do in capitalism. Sorry, but I don't have any major ethical qualms with how Sony has handled themselves, so that's not going to make me pick HD-DVD over Sony either. You call it evil...I call it capitalism.

Quite rankly, I dont' see what Sony is doing that is so awful. They are leveraging everything they have to win...

Fair enough... Read on.

...and last I checked, that's whaty ou do in capitalism. Sorry, but I don't have any major ethical qualms with how Sony has handled themselves, so that's not going to make me pick HD-DVD over Sony either. You call it evil...I call it capitalism.

Let me remind you that the position that they are in now was not accidental. It was by design. It was through strategic investing and collaboration of investors and was meant to stifle content flow to consumers. That IS unfair.

I wonder, how would you feel if Sony purchased television broadcast networks and only allowed people who bought their televisions to be able to purchase those channels? If they had great programming, don't you think that would be unfair? Is that what capitalism is?

Say Blu Ray was a terrible mess and was clearly inferior to HD DVD. Say you preferred HD DVD. If Sony would control 5 of the big studios and keep the content from you because you don't prefer the Blu Ray hardware to HD DVD hardware, would that be okay? If Sony wasn't in the HD race and owned all of the studios, and decided to keep their titles on DVD, would that be okay?

People avoid cognitive dissonance so it's no wonder that anyone who bought a Blu Ray player (and maybe paid a lot more than they could have for an HD DVD player if they only own the latter) would think that their actions supported anything but a good format and a company which will do right by them. I don't expect you to agree. Yo made your choices. No worries. However, don't fool yourself. Sony's actions ARE awful - for ALL of us. Last I checked, Sony buying and controlling studios resulted in no significant gain for us, the consumer. Unless of course you consider the continuous display of Sony's gadgetry in the Casino Royale film to be of some value.

As a side note, Blockbusters recent announcement came as no surprise to me given what Sony and their copatriots have done thus far. A company NEVER press releases what they DON'T have to buy/rent/sell. That is bad business. I wonder why they did that...

Some things to think about when figuring out how impartial Blockbuster/Viacom (which owns Blockbuster) might be in making their Blu Ray announcement/decision:

- "Viacom's Nickelodeon children's TV network announced this week that it has partnered with Sony Music Label Group to jointly finance and produce TV and music projects over the next four years."

-"Sony Corp. of America agreed Wednesday to buy a Viacom Corp. music catalog that includes "Silver Bells," "Moon River" and a series of well-known movie scores including "The Godfather""

I could go on...and on...and on.

...and with that the slight of hand continues.

Listen, I can understand it might mean something to some people, based on what they do, or some certain sort of idealism that I quite frankly don't share. But the simple truth is...99% of people just don't care. And I'm with them...this is just not something I take issue with, and I say that understanding what they're doing.

Let me address what you added to the above-quoted post by saying it is hardly my adherence to some form of idealism but rather a pragmatic approach to an unfair situation perpetrated by a company who has acted in their own best interest while being to the detriment of the HD consumer who would otherwise be able to make an unfettered and balanced decision of which format is the better fit for them.

As far as your suggestion that 99% of people just don't care, I am not so sure this is accurate. If your claim that 99% of people don't care - my guess would be that that would only be the case because they don't know the facts (much like me at the start of this format war). I'll bet that is exactly what Sony is banking on - ignorance coupled with some apathy.

Thank you ! :)

Thank you ! :)
I would like to personal thank The Powers That Be (The Mods) for re-opening this thread specifically & keeping things orderly in general here at AVS Forums.
A BIG thank you to all!
&
Congrats Jay!

I would like to personal thank The Powers That Be (The Mods) for re-opening this thread specifically & keeping things orderly in general here at AVS Forums.
A BIG thank you to all!
&
Congrats Jay!

:) Thanks Ed.

I am glad my request did not fall on deaf ears. Hence, the heartfelt "thank you" to all the Mods (Kevin) here! :)

Of course I know that people here are passionate about their positions in the high def world. After all, that's what brings many of us here.

Hopefully we will justify the reopening of this thread and continue it with "constructive dialogue"! :)

As much as I hate to say it, I think BD will ultimately win this battle. It may take three or four years, but when the dust settles, Blue Ray will come out on top.
When it comes right down to it, one of the biggest deciding factors was Sony's decision to pay off Best Buy to market the Blue Ray format. I was in Best Buy today with my son and was looking at the HD-DVD and Blue Ray discs and a couple walked by very quickly. "Blue Ray... what the heck is Blue Ray..." Shortly there after I was rounding up my family to leave the store and I saw that same couple approach a BB clerk. You could almost read their body language asking the clerk what the two formats were. Of course we all know where the employee led the couple... you guessed it. Right over to the Blue Ray endcaps.
Then you look at Toshiba's marketing approach... (if that is what you want to call it) and some times you wonder if Toshiba even cares if it wins the format war. This actually is one of the reasons I have not bought a player. Since last Christmas, when Toshiba decided to give Blue Ray the Christmas present of its life by not putting players on the shelves during the biggest shopping season of the year, it has been all down hill.

Hopefully Toshiba will survive long enough before its last gasp to force Blue Ray prices to levels we are currently seeing with HD-DVD.
I think what those of us in the HD-DVD corner should do is publicly voice our opinions on public threads like this one that Toshiba needs to drastically change the way it has approached the marketing of HD-DVD. Perhaps we would get lucky and someone from Toshiba who has some influential clout might notice some of these comments. If they see enough voicing about the current marketing strategy, maybe it might cause someone to re-evaluate things. I will say that things have gotten better over the past couple of months for HD-DVD from a marketing standpoint from Toshiba, but not by much. Heck it wouldn't take much to improve on what Toshiba was doing previously.


Craig

Great news. HD DVD just gained 71% of the Euro market.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=873882

As much as I hate to say it, I think BD will ultimately win this battle. It may take three or four years, but when the dust settles, Blue Ray will come out on top.
When it comes right down to it, one of the biggest deciding factors was Sony's decision to pay off Best Buy to market the Blue Ray format. I was in Best Buy today with my son and was looking at the HD-DVD and Blue Ray discs and a couple walked by very quickly. "Blue Ray... what the heck is Blue Ray..." Shortly there after I was rounding up my family to leave the store and I saw that same couple approach a BB clerk. You could almost read their body language asking the clerk what the two formats were. Of course we all know where the employee led the couple... you guessed it. Right over to the Blue Ray endcaps.
Then you look at Toshiba's marketing approach... (if that is what you want to call it) and some times you wonder if Toshiba even cares if it wins the format war. This actually is one of the reasons I have not bought a player. Since last Christmas, when Toshiba decided to give Blue Ray the Christmas present of its life by not putting players on the shelves during the biggest shopping season of the year, it has been all down hill.

Hopefully Toshiba will survive long enough before its last gasp to force Blue Ray prices to levels we are currently seeing with HD-DVD.
I think what those of us in the HD-DVD corner should do is publicly voice our opinions on public threads like this one that Toshiba needs to drastically change the way it has approached the marketing of HD-DVD. Perhaps we would get lucky and someone from Toshiba who has some influential clout might notice some of these comments. If they see enough voicing about the current marketing strategy, maybe it might cause someone to re-evaluate things. I will say that things have gotten better over the past couple of months for HD-DVD from a marketing standpoint from Toshiba, but not by much. Heck it wouldn't take much to improve on what Toshiba was doing previously.


Craig

Craig,

Great point. However, just a reminder - Toshiba has provided us with a comparable and much more affordable HD hardware entry option which is also coupled with a very consumer friendly format. As you said, it is possible that they might not win this war, but in my books they are deserving of just a bit of credit for the options that they have and continue to offer us thus far.

Jay

Great news. HD DVD just gained 71% of the Euro market.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=873882

I would not be surprised if Toshiba's offerings were better received overseas. After all, the effect of their control of studio titles is not as pervasive there as it is in North America.

Great news. HD DVD just gained 71% of the Euro market.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=873882As long as they only count standalones players and don't say what percentage of the market they have for disc sales. Using the same method in the US they could say that they have over 60% of the market, but yet they haven't won a week for disc sales by Nielsen count yet this year. I think it is quite misleading for them to say that they have 71% of the market when they've conveniently discounted most of the market the other side has (by counting PS3s as zero).

--Darin

"Blue Ray... what the heck is Blue Ray..."
Craig

You would be surprised how many people spell it 'Blue-ray'!

And in the English language at least, technically the phease 'Blu-ray' can only be pronounced as 'Blur-ray'!

Which is quite fitting really :-P

As long as they only count standalones players and don't say what percentage of the market they have for disc sales. Using the same method in the US they could say that they have over 60% of the market, but yet they haven't won a week for disc sales by Nielsen count yet this year. I think it is quite misleading for them to say that they have 71% of the market when they've conveniently discounted most of the market the other side has (by counting PS3s as zero).

--Darin

Yes. The story does not convey all of the facts. But how many do?

For instance, this story is not unlike the numerous reports proclaiming what excellent exclusive studio support Blu Ray has achieved without any mention of the fact that in some cases this support stems from the studio's corporate ownership - Sony. This is also misleading, wouldn't you agree? For example, this could create the impression in a readers mind that MGM actually decided to be Blu Ray exclusive because they were free to decide between the (better of the) two.

The above cited report regarding HD DVD obviously only conveys part of a story. But I hardly think that this convenient omission of the facts is a phenomena exclusive to reports on HD DVDs success.

... When it comes right down to it, one of the biggest deciding factors was Sony's decision to pay off Best Buy to market the Blue Ray format. ...

Craig

Looks like we should add Wal Mart to that list. :(

Quote:
Originally Posted by suffolk112000
... When it comes right down to it, one of the biggest deciding factors was Sony's decision to pay off Best Buy to market the Blue Ray format. ...

Craig
Looks like we should add Wal Mart to that list. :(
Actually, I've seen a sudden and pretty drastic turnaround towards HD DVD displays and media presentations at 3 area Best Buys the past 10 days. Blu Ray is still there, but no longer the solo front for HD disks...HD DVD installed equipment, demos playing, and signage are all ramped up.

Walmart - they have a subcontracted vendor for their media and displays, and they still don't even understand high def - that's from a close insider.